Laver Cup recap, Alcaraz Dominates, Coco and Osaka Coaching and more

Andy Roddick and Jon Wertheim dive deep into the 2024 Laver Cup event. They talk about what makes this event so special compared to the rest of the tournaments, the results that Carlos Alcatraz put up post-US Open early exit, and Andy and Jon discuss both sides of the debate surrounding adding the WTA to the event or letting someone create a similar event separate to the Laver Cup. Andy and Jon also get into some of the coaching changeups from Naomi Osaka and Coco Gauff while discussing this weird moment in the season post-US Open.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Discussion on the Future of Tennis
• 9:23 Expanding Tennis Events to Include Women
• 18:52 Insights on Tennis Players and Matches
• 27:04 Tennis Analysis and Calendar Challenges
• 31:59 Coaching Changes and Financial Deals
• 37:41 Evolving Player-Coaching Dynamics in Tennis
• 43:15 Player Coaching Dynamics and Off-Season Strategy
• 51:49 PTPA's Role and Legal Challenges
• 56:31 Union Discussion and Promotions

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to Served. I am Andy. We're going to bring our friend John Wertheim in. We're doing some interviews, some fun interviews with Stacey Allister Hopefully you caught that one. Michael Fuhrer coming out, I think this week, mike, is that right, that's correct. Yeah, chris Eubanks next week. So, jw, welcome back. Man, it's been a couple of weeks since the madness of the U? S open. What have you been up to? And also, like a, I say that knowing that he's not going to give me an answer, cause he likes asking the questions, not answering them.

Speaker 2: 0:33

You can watch 60 minutes this Sunday on CBS following football, and you'll you'll get some insight. I love, love the Love. The Stacey Allister interview. I will happily take a backseat anytime for Chris Eubanks. I've been out shooting, but good to be back with you. How are you?

Speaker 1: 0:48

Everything is good. We've officially entered the kind of weird part of the tennis season. Right, I spent all weekend watching Labor Cup, covering it on TC Live. I think what they've done with that event is great. There's a couple of questions. Is it sustainable? Where do we go from here? How, how many times can you travel? Travel it around, new captain saying goodbye to old ones? Where do you? Where do you stand on on kind of the labor cup of things?

Speaker 2: 1:16

uh, overall, uh, it's great, it's uh, I think this was year seven, um, not counting covid, and I think this is now a fixture and and I think it started out as look, davis Cup is a bit of a wreck. This was absolutely ripe for disruption and I credit Roger and Tony and Team 8 and everyone else for sort of stepping in and filling a void. And, yeah, I mean we can have this discussion now of could there be women? Why is the ATP involved? Should we be rotating sites or should we have more? I mean, we can have this discussion about where to go for it from here and where it needs to go, but I think it's a force of good. I don't know anyone that says boy, tennis was better off before the labor cup. I think it's a great addition to the schedule and I think yeah, I mean I do think that it would be nice if there were a women's division, and I think that I should turn my phone off before doing podcasting.

Speaker 3: 2:07

What do you know?

Speaker 2: 2:10

We can have a granular discussion now about how to improve this and what it needs to go to the next level, and I do think the you know sort of the Europe versus the world. One of my favorite tennis trivia questions it has been US. Us Open 2009 was the last time a non-European player won a major singles title, so Europe is sort of the nerve center of the sport. That said, I'm not sure people really draw this distinction between Europe and the rest of the world. It seems a little bit of an artificial distinction for teams. But these are all healthy conversations and seven years in the labor cup's done awfully well for itself. Here's to continued growth.

Speaker 2: 2:47

They'll be playing in the Chase Center in the Bay Area, which is I don't know if you've ever been there it is an absolute, first-in-class, tremendous venue, now about three years old. I think that will tap into the Bay Area. It's tech Coming back to the US, a nine-time zone change from this year, but I give those guys a lot of credit and if we've now pivoted to, what can we do to make it better? That sort of implies it's a force of good. It deserves to be here. What do you take the ball?

Speaker 1: 3:16

That's a really good point with where does it go from here? Again, it treats it like it's a permanent fixture, which I think is a great point to be made. Listen and also just realizing what's happening in the market. Davis Cup is bleeding, bleeding in aies in some random place and no one really plays. And then you go somewhere else and you play somewhere and there's no home and away ties, which was like the special sauce of the entire thing. We played Belarus in the semis one time and that was like a massive deal that a smaller country made the semis at Davis Cup. You just don't get these layup stories. You just don't get these layup stories. And so I think a lot of the credit to Roger and teammate is realizing like there was a lane for something that was a team competition but was just a lot smarter. And also the number one thing outside of you know the kind of sprinkle dust that Federer can put on anything in tennis, really, you know is the fact that it's an easy yes for the players.

Speaker 1: 4:29

It's three days tiebreaker for a third set. So even if you're playing a lot like Ben Shelton, you're playing indoors. It's predictable. You're not moving across time zones to play three out of five sets. I mean Davis Cup ties. If you got into like a five setter, you had to give up the week before because you want. If it was an away tie, you wanted to arrive by Saturday, sunday of the week before, just to get used to the time difference, right, cause the first two days after that are going to be a little bit of a wash. Get used to a service If you get ruined on a Friday or a Sunday, like the next week is almost out too, because if you, you know, play a five setter on the Sunday of Davis cup, three to five sets, or at least you used to, and then you'd get on a plane on Monday. That's a dumpster fire for your body, like it.

Speaker 1: 5:09

So I think the number one thing that they realized is one let's build an event that starts with the TV experience. Right, it starts with the players leaning over. I want to hear someone lean over and tell someone what they think about the matchup, like that's every time they're on a. I've never. I've never been so enthralled with switchovers before, like they're the only tennis event on earth where the switchovers might actually be the the event, like it might actually be the thing. Right, you watch the tennis, you love the tennis, the switchovers come down, I turn off everything else in my room. You know, I and I'm I'm listening to what's to what's being said, and so just realizing the market, realizing what people wanted, and then, you know, I actually think the ATP needs to be involved because they have to clear the schedule and not put a 1000 or a 500 against labor cup Cause that gives it a significant hit in the scheduling. So I think everything they've done is is is really smart and I was not an early believer.

Speaker 1: 6:02

I, you know, basically, yeah, like I held on to Davis cup and I just like this isn't it and the reasons that you were saying with Europe versus the world, it felt very artificial. I remember having a phone argument, not argument like, like a friendly argument. We argue about everything. We argue about that, like we argue about who should be ranked in college football, like it's not a serious thing. But I remember with John Isner and he's telling me no, we're playing like everyone cares about it. I'm like John, like you care about, you know there's money involved and like, but you don't like it's not like Davis cup, he's like it is. And I was so mad at him for him saying that.

Speaker 1: 6:34

And now I'm like, yeah, they play hard. Like it's, it's, it's it, care about it more because you care about Davis Cup less. Like it's, davis Cup's not additive anymore, you can go bust your ass and win it and it doesn't even make the 12th page of I was going to say newspaper and date myself like like those still exist, but it just it's taken over. As Davis Cup has basically blown itself up, labor Cup has entered and it's a prime watching thing. Like it's in it's we still. We still have kind of the relevancy of of the U S open to play off of Um, there are a lot of different things and listen props to, to to Roger, for he's introducing, you know, broad labor's legacy to a whole new generation of people who had no idea. You know people in this room that used to call a lava cup like who did that? Producer mike, oh what? Who knows fucking nothing I learned.

Speaker 3: 7:25

I learned a lot.

Speaker 1: 7:26

I learned a lot I'm just glad you learned how to pronounce his name finally, which is like a big bonus for us one step at a time yeah, one step at a time.

Speaker 2: 7:33

Gosh one legend, this is like uh, this is like hank aaron. Um, I always had two columns in my head with Labor Cup, like what suggested exhibition, right? So the guys let's not be naive here. I mean there's a lot of money at play. These guys are getting paid Well and we're departing. They're getting paid well, we're departing from the rankings.

Speaker 2: 7:57

A little weird to have ATP involvement when you don't have to necessarily go by who's eligible. But I think overall this really passes the test. Some of it is just the eye test of the exertion. You know what always gets it. For me it's exactly what you said. You and I did not rehearse this. We don't have notes.

Speaker 2: 8:14

The chatter on the changeovers, that is not exhibition chatter. When these guys are in Zverev's ear basically saying I'm paraphrasing, but you have a history for being a big baby, now go out there and win this thing, which is basically what Rafa and Roger said to Zverev when Riley Opelka made his remark a few years ago. The chatter at the changeover, even the did you see? Did you see this week with Kaboli and with Alcaraz? That to me, suggests these guys aren't just here for a good time and get a check.

Speaker 2: 8:46

I also just think if you watch the tennis, that is not exhibition level tennis that these guys are playing. And again, I, you know, we we can, we can pick at scabs and we could say wouldn't it be nice if Coco were on one team and Eagle were on the other and that would help the competitive balance? But I just think this event for something that's enough proof of concept that we know it works, and yet they've only done seven of these. It's still a baby. I think this is one of the real innovations in tennis and you wish there were more people thinking and investing the way Team 8 and its backers have here.

Speaker 1: 9:23

I have a question for you, cause I hear that a lot, because ultimately, like, labor cup becomes successful, it becomes a fixture and a lot of the feedback Anytime I mentioned anything with labor cup is like oh well, there's this, this bias, because well, they don't, they don't do it for women. I'm like, okay, wait, wait, a minute Timeout. Whose responsibility is it to make an event? Like, is it Tony Godzik's responsibility to go outside of his lane and create another event? There's no time. It's a venue, an arena. You're doubling your costs. Like that's not on him to do.

Speaker 3: 9:55

Well, isn't there the Billie Jean King Cup?

Speaker 1: 9:57

Well, that's like Davis.

Speaker 2: 9:58

Cup though.

Speaker 1: 9:58

Well.

Speaker 2: 9:59

I was going to say that's not.

Speaker 1: 10:01

No, I mean it's not a three-day, it's like it has challenges similar to davis cup, I think.

Speaker 2: 10:05

yeah, exactly I mean, half of my rationale is it would just help with competitive balance. For a while, there it was team europe winning every year. I always said too, if this weren't an exhibition, wouldn't you fire mackinrow, wouldn't you say, wait, you've given us five losing seasons, here you're out. But I I think it would help just for competitive if you had naomi osaka and you had coco and you had uh, I just think it would help if we were, if we were, dead set on this europe versus the world. I think having women might have evened it out. But no, I mean that's a fair point like why, why should it fall? If this is such a great idea, go great, go find another agency, another backer, to do women's version.

Speaker 1: 10:39

There's no ip here that can't be copied like if you, you're, if you're, if you're a huge investor in women's tennis, then go just copy and paste this event, this arena cup, right, whatever? Well, I mean you, yeah, there's, there's a million, the, the, the Chrissy, the, Chrissy, martina cut, like, whatever. I mean there's a million. Like the naming isn't the issue, it's like go do it. The blueprint is there Go find an arena, go find a market. You don't need a hundred players Like, why, I don't understand whether, why it's like labor cups, responsibility to go to go do that. And I would and, by the way, I would say, and I and I, I, I promise you most tennis people who know me like I would be saying the exact same thing. If the situation was reversed and Serena had started something and it was a wild success, it wouldn't be Serena's responsibility to go put a men's event together as well or to bring them in to something that is successful.

Speaker 2: 11:32

Right. I mean I don't think it's. I don't think the onus is on Roger and teammate, but if we're building this event and it's, it's one thing I like if, if this event, if this event has been built and one of the selling points is it's really this lineage of tennis and it's a celebration of the sport and it's intergenerational. And you said, listen, you've got the arena for the whole week anyway. Man, it would be great if we incorporated women and Chris Evert and Martina could be the captains. I mean, I think, as a thought exercise, it's reasonable to say, boy couldn't this work. Think as a thought exercise, it's reasonable to say, boy couldn't this work. As the same way we talk about having the nba all-star game and having sabrina I and sq shooting threes against steph curry. I don't think if the onus is on roger, I just think it's a as a thought exercise. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a concurrent and coco were high-fiving, francis and iga and medvedev were playing?

Speaker 1: 12:22

I mean, I it's listen, if we're doing this as a celebration, is the PNL sheet so healthy that all of a sudden we're going to bring in an entirely different event and add to those stressors to where all of a sudden now we have to double sponsor revenue and do all of these things? That's that's a hard thing to assume, right?

Speaker 3: 12:40

I'm assuming it's not like they're just you know from from a fan standpoint, from a complete you know, idiot in this entire space. Uh, I mean, it's a really easy product to consume.

Speaker 2: 12:50

You know, it was.

Speaker 3: 12:51

It was. It's easy to understand. There's no threshold. I'm like, oh, I get it it's. These guys were seeing as red versus blue and and all right, we're going to see who the best team is. And I think, once you start adding in extra layers and extra people and expanding the teams because what do you do Then you cut three or four men out to add three or four women, you know, and then how do you offset that? I think it's just a really easy product to consume and it's really well structured and it was really entertaining.

Speaker 1: 13:15

And I probably have a little bit of scar tissue from from Davis Cup being this event that I loved, played, never missed. Just going into the complete shitter, I go and I maybe I have a knee-jerk reaction to every time we have something good as far as a team event, we tend to make it more confusing, right, we tend to like, add late, like to you're saying like, add layers and add this and add days and add like, can't a product just live as like a really good product that fills three full days? Right, I, I don't know, I mean, I think it's great.

Speaker 2: 13:48

Well, and let me throw this to you, the regrettably named dead rubber notwithstanding, you know what the genius of this is the accelerator. It's like the remember the 2008 financial crisis where all these loans, the reason why we have these credit default swaps, these accelerator clauses I mean the fact that Sunday can arrive and these matches are worth so much more on Sunday than they are on Friday and we don't have this beta complete these sort of meaningless matches. That's kind of the genius of this thing, isn't?

Speaker 3: 14:15

it that there's like the Ryder cup.

Speaker 2: 14:16

There's reason to watch all three days.

Speaker 3: 14:18

The Ryder cup can just be completely out of reach, right right.

Speaker 1: 14:24

Yeah, well, same with davis cup. It was like davis cup it was. It was brutal. I don't know, though, in my entire davis cup career, and we were a specific kind of team that was like really good on one service and really bad on a certain surface, in a way ties, but like we, never, I don't think we I was ever a part of a team that had a live fifth match, which is crazy considering I played. You know, I had 30 some odd davis cup. I mean, I played a let's let, and one of the things I don't want to get lost in this entire thing is idea making is pretty easy, right. And then idea making, with this idea of creating this event, this entity which keeps names, I, I, I. I got off at this point because I couldn't resist the temptation of making fun of you.

Speaker 1: 15:02

Producer Mike um of of of basically giving a massive tip of the cap to Rod Laver and his greatness, but also, like the captaincies right, like, obviously, we see Johnny Mac all the time he's still extremely relevant, but like Borg being back there and seeing that relationship be celebrated by, you know, an entirely new generation of fans, seeing the players interact with these legends, you know. And now Rogers in his legacy phase, where he's the one watching, you know, even though he started it. I just I just really like it. And as we project forward, um, you know, andre accepting the captaincy role, I think it's a massive, massive deal, um, along with Yannick Noah. But getting you know, mack and Borg on, you know, on board early days is great. But the continuation of, okay, we've set the precedent with a certain type of legend right, with Mack and Rowan Borg and these massive names. And then Andre goes yep, I'll do it. That's massive, that's a, that's a big thing for for credibility, for for this event Moving forward. We're going to do a little bit more on Labor Cup. When we get back, we're going to talk about coaching season, some moves being made, and then we're going to discuss what the hell is this part of the season and why We'll be right back.

Speaker 1: 16:12

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Speaker 1: 17:00

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Speaker 1: 18:17

You know, it's the thing that we saw with the big three and now they're discussing carlos in that that same light and he kind of proved them right. It was like, hey, there's a little speed bump at the U S open, um, but you know, listen, it was, it was full of all the things you would expect Medvedev almost getting defaulted for throwing things. Uh, you know, zverev, I think, had a nice moment, uh, in front of the home fans in Berlin, kind of saving that tie when he was down to set in a break against Francis. Francis uh has, you know, went over. Medi has completely turned his form around. But you know, what you don't want is to be, you know, a breakup in your last two matches, uh, closing set and to lose them.

Speaker 1: 18:52

Um, you know, some questions may be around the doubles lineup. I was, we were on a side text with all the tennis channel, uh, people, um, I, I probably would have gone with the lefties again, um, to be low and Shelton when they flipped the doubles the last day against Alcaraz and rude, uh, when rude had consistently proven over the course of the night before when he played with Sitsipas against Shelton and to be low that he actually couldn't take any returns early against a lefty. And then Shelton makes himself, you know, bigger than he actually normally is. I don't know why all of a sudden you would give them a righty serve with a gettable second serve with Francis in that next match. I understand Francis is a magician, I get all of the great things about him, but simply, once you see rude, try to, you know, return those lefty serves and doubles.

Speaker 1: 19:39

That was convincing. You should have just fed that lineup again. But to you guys point with the scoring day one's exciting because it's day one, day two, you know the, the doubles it presents, doubles in a relevant light, you know, which we don't see very often, frankly, anymore. And then listen to all the drama you would ever want. I thought I was going to be on air at 10 30 AM East coast time and it went till four 30, um with with that last match, with a dominant performance by no-transcript um, I, I watched on and off, um, but that's actually relevant.

Speaker 2: 20:14

I watched messy on uh on saturday. That's cool, we can sideline that, but it actually fits into this. But no, I, I think you're right and I think, um, it was all. That's a really good point. All all three days there was relevance for different reasons.

Speaker 2: 20:28

And then I had the exact same reaction you did, which is we were prepared to say all right, carlos alcarez young needs to pace himself. And this is a little bit reminiscent of Rafa at this age where just the wheels come off by late August and we just need to work on the assumption that this guy's an eight-month-a-year player. And for him to come back from that US Open terrible defeat. And I don't know if you remember his remarks in the press conference afterwards where he basically said you know, I've disappointed myself with how weak I've been mentally and you sort of said, oh, this guy should go to a beach, this guy needs to go fishing for 90 days For him to come back three weeks later and really reassert himself like that. You're right.

Speaker 2: 21:06

It's one thing when Jim Currier and I'm watching and the broadcasters are saying Carlos is playing next level tennis, but when you hear his peers essentially ceding ground and being like, yeah, you're the best in the world, playing for second place, you're the best in the world, buddy.

Speaker 2: 21:21

I thought that was really telling in a way A that he still has it in himself at this point in the year. There are no more majors We'll talk about that in a minute. It's the middle of September, it's indoors, and this clearly meant a lot to him in the big picture as well and suddenly the confidence is back, the aura is back and we've still got a few weeks of tennis left and no majors Again. I'm really sold on this event for all sorts of reasons and I think a lot of times, fans take their cues from the players and when we know that the players are invested, when we know Carlos Alcaraz is bringing this level of commitment, intensity, execution, playing at this level, even if it's not articulated as a fan, as a viewing proposition, I'm drawn in by that and that says a lot about sort of the valence and the significance of the event.

Speaker 1: 22:16

I was surprised, especially on the heels of of center, being dominant at the U S open right. I mean, lost the first set of the tournament, lost one to Medi, but then swept sets in the in the in the final weekend. I was amazed at how many players, without even flinching, just said best top level in tennis right now is is Carlos Alcaraz Right? And did without even like a hiccup, no flinching, just that maybe they feel like more days when he's, you know, a little bit more like a heart rate monitor if he hasn't quite found it. But the general feeling seems to be, once he finds it and has it, you're, you're, you have a, you have a massive problem, right, like you have it's, it's, it's kind of curtains, uh, in a way, for him. So it was good to see him back. It was good to see him take over the like, watching him play doubles and flying around the court. He has unbelievable doubles instincts. Oh my gosh, like if you watch him play doubles and then go just to a lock stock tour event, it's different gravy. He is unbelievable on a on doubles court Like it was it's. You can't get away from him. I mean it's, it's phenomenal and it shows you how kind of uh great his instincts are for tennis in general when he doesn't play doubles and then you just insert them and he's making all the right crosses moves, he's shading the right positions, he's hitting the ball middle at the right times. He's doing all of these things that normally take more reps.

Speaker 1: 23:36

One other guy that I was really impressed with was one Fritz, getting back in there after the US Open disappointment. He deserves credit. Even fought back from a breakdown in that second set against Carlos when he was being completely outplayed. I'm more and more impressed with Fritz. I don't think we give him enough credit as just the lunch pail guy. He shows up every single day and does his job. You never think of him having an off day, giving less than his best effort, playing without a sense of belief. Mailing it in it would have been really easy. I have a lot of respect for the way Fritz goes about it Shelton taking out Medvedev and fighting for his team.

Speaker 1: 24:13

He was tough. He showed loses. The first set had two or three service games in a row where he was a deuce break point down. He's building that set where when he used to play someone top five, you felt like he was trying to play above himself and now he feels like I don't know. There just seems to be a little bit more of a sense of belief. He obviously had to defend the semis of the US Open, which he didn't do. He has to defend Tokyo. Who knows if he can do that. I don't care where his ranking is at the end of this year. I think Ben Shelton has a big, big year next year. I like what I see from him just as far as a game perspective getting to know his game a little bit more, not forcing back in line as much, just crushing it middle of the court and you heard him actually saying the same thing to uh, to Zvera it was. I just like what I'm seeing from from Ben Shelton, yep.

Speaker 3: 25:02

How much is a young guy like Ben Shelton learning an experience like this being around?

Speaker 1: 25:07

you know some of the groups even his peers, right Like it's a different locker room experience right.

Speaker 1: 25:11

Well, also, like you're, you're listen. If you're a pro tennis player, you're talking about tennis all the time, but you're not hearing different perspectives all the time from people you value their, their opinions on Right. So, like Ben, for sure, I mean he's, he's lucky. His dad was top 60 in the world, made, you know, runs at Wimbledon, made the second week at you know, so he's getting, he's gotten great tennis perspective for his entire life. But maybe it's different.

Speaker 1: 25:35

You pick up something from maybe Francis hits that little short chip and it's like, oh okay, that would add a lot of value to what I do. Mac maybe says something hey, why don't you try to sneak in on this ball? And he goes, oh, okay. So now all of a sudden the recognition starts building for that type of transition game. So, yeah, I don't even think it's like, hey, I've definitely learned this.

Speaker 1: 25:56

But all those conversations kind of mold your tennis brain. So for him, young is one thing, but we also forget he's been on tour for less than two years. Right, like he started the fall. This this exact time he started making his run through the challengers where he won like three in a row. Eubanks talked about it. He started winning. All those challengers got into Australia then made quarters out of the gate at Australia, then he was off but he's been on like a full time tour situation for like two years. So young is one thing, but not having those professional it's not as if he's been around professional tennis for six years now. Like it's two years that he's got a. He's got a brain that still has some space. That's cool.

Speaker 2: 26:34

Well, say more about that. How would you have handled, at various points in your career, the dynamics of Lever Cup, where there's a lot of interaction with the other players at the top of the game? You know, roth and Roger can play the same event and they're not watching each other's matches. They may play different days, they're not seeing each other in the locker room. How would you have handled all of this? Whatever the camaraderie, the social interaction, these are the very best players and it's not often they're in one place having this kind of closeness. How would you have handled that?

Speaker 1: 27:04

There wouldn't have been a lot of moments where I wasn't sitting next to someone, not trying to create a narrative but just trying to accept what's being said situationally. What does this guy do here? What do you like If he's five all and you're playing this guy? You know where does Sitsipas go with his forehand? Is he still trying to cut the corner and take it early because he seems committed to being aggressive this week? Or, you know, do you? Do you buy it? Do you not buy it? Do you think there's, you know is, is he? Is he kind of throwing a pair of twos out there?

Speaker 1: 27:28

There wouldn't have time where I wasn't in someone's proximity of you know it could have been. I'm trying to think who it would have been back then. Um, you know it would have been. Andre would have been. You know there would have been a bunch of guys, but I would have been squarely, uh, intentionally, in the middle of those conversations, even if it's you pick one tendency of one player, cause someone mentioned something that stays in your brain where, a year later, all of a sudden, that's a six figure tip in the semis of a master series event and you know two ranking spots in. You know, maybe it doesn't all work out like this. I'm being a touch dramatic, but you're seated three instead of five and all of a sudden that matters. Like I would have intentionally loved it, eaten it up, been in the middle of all of those conversations, like I wouldn't. I would have been the team room non-stop, even back at the hotel. I would have been a full participant. I think it would have been.

Speaker 2: 28:21

I mean, I would have no, I think I mean you know what you just said. Casper, rude can't handle the lefty serve out wide, well, not in doubles real value.

Speaker 1: 28:29

He needs space in doubles. He needs space, but you don't have that. Like all those guys and I said on TC live before we went into that, like sits a possum, rude in doubles. Like neither one can make the court smaller in doubles Right, they both need time to hit a return.

Speaker 1: 28:45

I just didn't like what I would, you know, and so rude. I don't know how you give them a righty serve after seeing what you saw. But like all of that stuff matters and what I would have been really interested in is I have an opinion. I would have loved to have heard the counter. And why, right? No, maybe his, his grips too extreme. This guy's got a little cut in his slicer. Like I don't, I don't, you know, maybe there's something I'm not seeing which is your point right, which is all of those little things that you can kind of pick up.

Speaker 1: 29:12

In San Francisco, I know a tech company or 7,000 that probably want some attention for some hospitality there, so I'm assuming it will be a huge win based on that marketplace. Getting to the West coast of the States is a is a is a big deal. Agassi, yannick Noah in in tow, um, again, like no one's forgotten about agassi, but like it'll be fun to retell the story of yannick noah too. Like the guy won the french open. It's the coolest looking dude I've ever seen and is like a massive reggae star in france.

Speaker 3: 29:45

Like this guy's, like this is your documentary producer mike I had no idea about this and his son, I mean when I knew you knew you oh, yeah, yeah, right, and his son won.

Speaker 2: 29:53

Son won an NCAA title and played in the NBA you talk about. You go to France and people genuinely do not know that Yannick Noah had a tennis career. That's crazy. That's how big a pod star he is.

Speaker 1: 30:04

I call bullshit on that, but like because everyone knows that he won Roland Garros, you don't think everyone knows Yannick Noah won Roland Garros in France. He was the number one selling French musician, like X years in a row. No, I get that.

Speaker 2: 30:18

I think we're underselling you think these kids at his concert say, oh yeah, in 1983 he beat Matt Valander in straight sets. I think it's plausible.

Speaker 1: 30:26

No, they're probably smoking a dube. They're saying he won Roland Garros in 1983. Also donuts, yeah Too much 1983. Um, also, uh donuts? Yeah Too much, okay, anyways moving on.

Speaker 3: 30:41

Let's toss to break. You know what? Let's have an Olipop.

Speaker 1: 30:43

Let's have an olive. Yeah, that'll make up for my my reference of smoking a dupe. I'll say it again, so you can't edit it out. We'll be right back. All right, welcome back to served. I have my, my vintage Cola from Alipop. Yeah, it's a good one. I like this. I've been going with the green cans, you know, like the Ridge Rush, the lemon lime, ridge Rush, nice one, well done, well done, very natural way to go. It's delicious. It is delicious. Let's get into a little bit like this time of year. Let's approach it from, like, the player's perspective and then like what happens with this calendar. And I was talking with Techie Sean before the show started. We come out here and kind of write notes and just chat, and it's like he's going away, they're going to Asia now, and then they're going to Europe, and then it's like the end of December and then they start again like Christmas. I'm like, yep, that's what it is.

Speaker 3: 31:37

Yeah, like our next interview is with Eubanks and we did it last week and he's like, oh, I'm not going to do the Asian swing. I was like I was Googling, I was like let's see Asian.

Speaker 1: 31:45

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 31:46

Asia swing.

Speaker 1: 31:48

It's kind of like the. It's kind of like another. You know, it's like this weird thing that like it counts the same as like Miami and Indian Wells, but it doesn't feel the same as Miami, miami and Indian Wells. But I don't know, let's get to, let's get to some coaching changes, because this also is like coaching season, and by that I mean a lot of, a lot of kind of, at least as a player.

Speaker 1: 32:10

It's like let's get through the open and then you kind of reassess, like there is this three month period before the next year starts, where, whether it's, you know, switching coaches, trying something different, working on certain parts of your game. You know it's just and we've already seen the first penny drop straight away after the U S open with, with the news, uh, about Naomi Osaka, uh, splitting, and then, uh, I don't know if there's like, if this is just a uh, a situation that is based on proximity and familiarity, I don't think we've gotten. I don't think Naomi's come out and said, hey, I'm, I'm definitely working with Patrick more more Otaglu in in 2025. Is that? Is that correct, jw? Are we in that? We don't know 2025. Is that is that correct, jw Are?

Speaker 2: 32:56

we in that we don't know. I think. I think, uh, I think you would have. No, I think we can confirm that. Um, interesting, I'll tell you an interesting story.

Speaker 2: 33:03

Um, someone during the U S open said Patrick is talking to Naomi, just so you know, this is going to happen. And I went to the Osaka camp and it was vigorously, categorically, vehemently denied um, so either the the camp didn't know or, uh, there was some real sort of behind the scenes negotiating here. Um, but no, I mean, don't, don't you think if that weren't true, the camp would have denied the reports and they're being photographed together on ucla's courts and I think, I think we can assume that's a done deal. Strange pairing, but I think that, yeah, I think you said it, this is, you know, maybe not as a business model a great idea to have your culminating climax event the first week of September and then put another, you know, 60 to 90 days of tennis on the calendar.

Speaker 2: 33:53

So, yeah, even though the tours continue on I'm not sure what's at stake here and clearly a number of players have used this period of you know, we're sort of we're eliminated from the playoffs, so we're going to play with our roster and change our offense. So you see personnel changes in September, when usually that's the kind of thing you do in the off season.

Speaker 1: 34:12

So when you asked about the Naomi coaching rumor that you had heard or at least there's not, I don't want to say rumor, because you seem super solid in your source that was before the US Open.

Speaker 2: 34:27

August 22nd to be precise, so way before the US Open. No, someone said, hey, listen, you might want to check this out. Patrick is going to be Naomi's new coach. And I sort of went to the Osaka camp and said, listen, here's what I'm hearing. Confirm, deny, modify, clarify. And it was categorically. I mean, sometimes you get these questions of like, yeah, we're looking at a lot of options, sometimes you get listen, I'm begging you, please don't write this but this was absolute, flat, categorical denial.

Speaker 1: 34:53

And then, very strangely, a few weeks later, it was true, yeah, listen, I don't know what the other option is going into the US Open, because if you're trying to keep your team together, even if you're having other conversations, I don't see the value in giving it any air before you're going to play the US Open.

Speaker 3: 35:14

You mean like, even just like having an interview?

Speaker 1: 35:16

or like lending to the mystery I might've had the relationship with a couple of journalists where I could say I don't know what I'm doing, man, just like I, but I also don't want this to blow up like now. So I just need some space to breathe. But if you don't have that relationship, I don't know that you can, I don't know, I don't have that relationship, I don't know that you can, I don't know, I don't know that there's a good way to respond to that If you know what's happening but you still have to play the U S open Like I don't know, like what? What is it? What is a okay? Producer, mike, let's take our biases out of it. Player, uh, journalist, like what's your response if you're?

Speaker 3: 35:55

if, if, maybe it's happening, but like you have to play the US Open and you don't want those storylines during the US Open, what do you say? I don't know about categorically denying it, but I think ultimately you're like oh, we're working through some things. We're always constantly analyzing everything.

Speaker 1: 36:05

No, no, what do you say? You just channel Bill Belichick. No, no, no, listen, I'm okay. Now, then I'm regurgitating it on this show and I'm like well, we asked about a coaching change. They said we're working through some things.

Speaker 3: 36:18

That means a coaching change, like I mean, that's, you could rekindle the flame, though who knows?

Speaker 2: 36:23

With a good run at the US Open. You guys have been watching David Tepper's football team.

Speaker 1: 36:29

Good God.

Speaker 2: 36:29

What about? No, I don't know. No, I don't know. It's a tough situation. Let me ask you another question about coaching, yeah, which is I often think about the finance of all these things. And it used to be I mean, I'm sounding like an old man here but when you and I were starting out, I think there's some bonuses tied in and hey, if you win a major, you get a bonus, but basically I'm going to pay all of your expenses and I'm going to pay you a little premium on what you would make hitting balls at the club and giving lessons, and there are six-figure bonuses when your players win majors and there's T&E tied in. We talk a lot about the changing finances of tennis and $100,000 for losing in the first round. What are the financials for a top player when you're making these kind of coaching moves? What are you setting aside? How are those deals being structured? What does it look like when it's September and you're trying to recruit a new coach?

Speaker 1: 37:40

One. I would say that there's probably a smaller amount, smaller percentage of players that actually know or care about the details of how a deal gets done or what the ramifications are. Some players just like I don't know, just get it done and then I don't want to think about it, I don't want to think about finances. When I was 18, I didn't know any of how any of it went. I didn't know what. I couldn't have told you what my coach was being paid when I was 19. But then at 25, all of a sudden it's like, okay, you're starting to think listen, let's, let's all win together, let's share in the bonuses, let's like I want you to do such a good job that you know when it happens, we.

Speaker 1: 38:15

So I don't know, I, I, the structure could be a little bit different, but, like everything else in tennis, you know if you're, if you're coaching someone who's a grand schedule is going to be six weeks from now. It's a lot easier to coach someone minus the eyeballs who is a top player, and you know what your schedule is 12 months in advance. You know whether it's just scheduled out. But, yeah, there's a lot more opportunity, I think, for coaching, and now we have players that have two coaches, three coaches. A coach gets brought in, you know, you know for volleys or for you know mine. There's just a lot more employment going on with camps now than there used to be.

Speaker 2: 39:08

I was surprised too at the US Open. In the lounge I ran into multiple coaches who were out of a job. I think there's probably an ethics to poaching. There's probably some protocol there. But clearly there are a number of coaches who come to the US Open hoping to have some conversations, because this is the time and the season and when you don't have much of an off season the way other sports do, it seems kind of reasonable. After the fourth major, when everything else has this savor of anti-climax, that's when you might want to lobby for some jobs.

Speaker 3: 39:43

Andy, you said something earlier about that Like now they have coaches for volleys, now they have coaches for serves. Right Is is are we seeing maybe, a change of the guard in the way you look at approach coaching? I mean when you look at NFL quarterbacks, right Like Pat Mahomes and Baker Mayfield have the same quarterback coach in the off season. Like wide receivers are going to wide receiver specialists and they're going to camp together, you know it's it may have guys that they kind of call during the season that aren't on the staff that they have. Are we going to maybe see a switch to that across tennis?

Speaker 1: 40:19

Yeah, I think, well one. I think that people can now afford more expertise, right, Like, I think people you know, if you want to go out and go hire someone for a couple of weeks for a specific shot, it's, it's no longer cost prohibitive. If that, if that wins, it's like a massive deal. So to John's point, where he kind of started this with you know, the more there's money in tennis, it's not a club pro who's just making a little bit more and wants to see the world, it's. It's a very dedicated profession that is full of expertise and nuance, and you know. So I just think people can afford more. So there's, there's, there's no stone left on turn now, especially for the top players, just because prize money has become a different animal than it was even when I played not too long ago. But to John's point, before I went off on a tangent that will most certainly be edited out the coaches hanging around the US Open. I think that's incredibly smart.

Speaker 1: 41:13

Proximity wins a lot of the time. Like my last coach, uh, Larry Stefanky is a great coach, coached for number ones. Like, if I had to go start playing again tomorrow, I would hire Larry Stefanky, Uh, but he turned down a couple of jobs, like in the two years after I retired, just because he wanted to be home and there was some you know some personal stuff going on. And then there's not a lot of lag time if you're past a certain age where you're not 35 and top of mind and people don't see you. So once that generation goes out, I don't know that a young guy is going to go pull you in. I think proximity really really matters. So those coaches that were hanging around the US Open we said it kind of as a joke, but I think if I was a coach looking to pick up a bag, I think that's exactly where I would have been as well.

Speaker 2: 42:03

Yeah, you know, it's not just coaches. It did not get the headlines of Naomi Osaka and Patrick. It did not get the headlines of Coco Gauff and Brad ending their partnership. But do you guys notice, Sinner picked up two members of the Djokovic camp the fitness coach and the physio, Marco Panichi and I'm blanking on the physiotherapist name. But that's a significant move too, not just because of recent history.

Speaker 1: 42:30

What happened to Sinner's other trainers?

Speaker 2: 42:39

Yeah, it's like uh, but why didn't donald trump use his old vice president to uh to be?

Speaker 1: 42:41

his new vice president when he ran in 2024. We made it so far without without you getting in there. Jw made it. We've made so much progress. Um, what was your first take? We'll, we'll get that and then we'll get to kind of the the uh part of the season that we're in and maybe break that down a little bit from a player perspective, maybe a player perspective at different rankings, as best I can tell you about it. What was your first reaction when you heard about Coco and BG splitting up?

Speaker 2: 43:09

Candidly. I mean I think, yeah, no one's listening. I'm sure you heard. No, I'm sure you heard the same chatter that I did. And this was a relationship that obviously had great success a year ago. And, as tends to happen, I don't know how much of this is specific to the principles and how much this is just any intense relationship. It's not hardly unique to tennis. Within sports, relationships can curdle a little bit and get stale. It doesn't sound like there was any bad blood, but I think at the US Open it was pretty clear that you know, this was in its waning days and hey, they won a major together. They had great success. I think it. Probably in retrospect it helped both of them reputationally, but I don't think this was a great shock, not just because of her results. But you sort of hear this is a sport that gets very small very fast and you sort of hear chatter about what relationships might be fraying a bit and I wasn't gobsmacked. What about you?

Speaker 1: 44:07

Yeah, no, I wasn't surprised by it. One, I think we need to realize what happened. We often forget in telling stories about Coco's year this year and how maybe Wimbledon, us Open, might not have gone the way that she wanted them to. And obviously, the way you lose a match with 11 doubles and third set and the whole thing, it just all kind of makes it a little weirder. But we conveniently forget that she lost first round last year in Wimbledon. It was in a tailspin before her and Brad got together and so to kind of remedy that, in two or three months have a life changing win at the US Open, regardless what happens after that, I guarantee you, you give both of them exactly what happened and they'd say, hey, listen, even if we're washing our hands of it, this, this is a 10 out of 10. This is exactly we brought you on jolt of energy, different perspective and we want to major. And I'm 20 years old still Like it's, it just worked.

Speaker 1: 45:08

So all the everyone who has there's a lot of armchair quarterbacks and a lot of people, myself included, who said, oh, you just got to do that, that and that Great, it's harder to do. If everyone was an expert, there'd be a lot more great coaches. Let's not lose in this kind of drama gossip. You know, however, what, whatever the product was we saw with Coco this year at the US Open, let's not lose the headline of they get together, kind of U-turn her form from last year and, oh, by the way, when the US Open, like they did what they were supposed to do.

Speaker 1: 45:44

That matchup was meant to try to do something like that and they did it very quickly. So props to them. I hope they both feel good about it. I liked the way that they broke up, where they each released a statement, but it was props to the other person. It seemed very friendly, which is all you can really ask for, because it's not going to work all the time, but respect should win out, especially when you've had the success that they have. Yeah, yeah, producer Mike, is she in any rush?

Speaker 3: 46:09

to find a replacement, you know.

Speaker 1: 46:11

I just time here, so I have no envy. I haven't. I haven't talked to Coco since. I've talked to Brad a little bit. I talked to, I spent some time with Brad after they had lost the US Open. I don't think she has to be in a rush. You know, jc Farrell, who I used to play juniors with, has been on that bag for months now. So it's not as if I can't go play tournaments in the Asian swing and the European swing because I have nobody. That's not the case, right? So I'm curious.

Speaker 1: 46:41

The thing I don't know the answer to is the name brand coaches, right, whether it's a high profile former player, whether it's a, you know a Brad Gilbert who has these you know, splashy storylines with a number of other, uh, former slam winners, um, is that something she still is going to want to go towards? Or is it a technical guru? You know someone that doesn't want to travel all the time like a Rick Macy, right? Who's responsible for, you know, the, the, the, the technique on, you know, with Venus and Serena and serving and the whole thing. Do you want someone who is in charge of training weeks and home base? Um, or do you want someone who's super high profile or both.

Speaker 1: 47:21

Getting someone super high profile to move to where you are is a is a different thing. So I'll be curious. But I don't think she has to be in a rush at all Like her base level. Think she has to be in a rush at all Like her base level? You know, we think she played badly the last three months and she's still like what three in the world, four in the world, five, whatever she is like her bottom, her bottom level is still pretty good Like. So I don't think she has to be in a rush. I don't think she's going to go out this week and not know how to play. I think she's going to be fine. If anything, she's a master at just getting back to work, at least to this point in her career. So I don't think she has to be in much of a rush.

Speaker 2: 47:57

How about this as an opportunity to make an unpopular statement, maybe? And then we can sort of pivot with this. Maybe we don't mind this season after all, this silly season with relatively low stakes. Maybe a player like Coco can take her time filling a coaching vacancy and Yannick Sinner can retool his staff and get a new fitness coach and physio after. And we go to China, which is a new market and players can get all sorts of bonuses and some players can throttle back.

Speaker 2: 48:31

And you know what? There's not a major for 120 days. I can go a little easy. I can pair events back like novak. Other players, like we saw with andy murray a few years ago, can really turn on the gas and really try to get those finish in the finish at number one bonus, finish in the top five bonus. We travel the world, we bring tennis to new markets. We're a long way from the next major, so we can work on some things without high-intensity light just for the sake of thumbing the water. Maybe this strange period of tennis we're in right now isn't so strange after all.

Speaker 1: 49:06

Great, let's do all of those things and let's be done by November 1st. Let's do all those things and be done by November 1st. But then if you want to run, I still limit it. Like I have a million terrible ideas on this podcast.

Speaker 1: 49:21

November to December do four weeks, I don't know, maybe it's six, I don't. Whatever, it is four straight weeks of two fifties, right. And so the top players who have played the most matches, who don't need the paychecks, don't need to participate in those two fifties, find smaller markets. You don't need a massive stadium. Have two fifties. People that are trying to break into the top hundred, trying to get into majors, all of these other things where they're working for their lunch, still have an opportunity. November, the entire month of November, should be two fifties where the top players don't have to participate in world.

Speaker 1: 49:56

That has no bearing, for two fifties have zero bearing on world tour finals. The people in world tour finals are because they've made runs at slams, they've won masters, one thousands. It doesn't. The two fifties don't affect world tour finals. Play your world tour finals, wrap it up. Let's fucking wrap it up and let the and let the rest of the season be for people that need to build into January, right, not running on fumes to, to, to try to recover in a week and then train and get ready for the next season January 1st. So all of those things new markets you could even open up some newer markets, add more to like more tournaments, but just the players that have played the most they have to recover. When Sviantek's telling you that, when Carlos, who never says anything negative about any thing, is like it's too much, I can't do it, and they're like mandatory events, yeah, carlos, you know what Carlos just stop playing the fucking mandatory events and see what they do.

Speaker 1: 50:56

I, I'm going to guess they're not going to kick you off tour. I'm going to guess that. I'm going to guess you're going to be fine. Call that bluff. Uh, I don't know this. This, this wraparound thing like this, it's the same, it's just so fra. I get so pissed about it because it's just the same conversation all the time. Right, and Zverev was on. He's like well, we can't boycott. We're going to boycott the year. Other players will replace us. I'm going to let you guys in and God ends. He's not going to like me for this World Tour finals responsible for like a very, very, very significant part that's the one of their revenue, and you're not putting anyone else out of a job. It's not like you're boycotting the U S open and someone 90 in the world Isn't getting their a hundred thousand dollar first round loser paycheck right. It's eight. You're. They're going to replace you in world tour finals with someone who didn't qualify for world tour finals. Yeah, that, that, that, that, that. That sounds like a fun marketing campaign. Almost, almost world tour finals call.

Speaker 2: 51:49

Those are also the uh. Those are the events that are providing more than half the Look at how many. What was it? Two-thirds of the WTA Tour's revenue comes from those World Tour finals. Those are the events that affect the bottom lines of the tour, that are putting in these ridiculous mandatories and these schedules. That's the one. If players really wanted to use their leverage, if talent wanted to flex its muscle, that's the place you, uh, if, if players really wanted to use their leverage, if, if talent wanted to flex its muscle, that's the place to do it.

Speaker 1: 52:16

Um, and don't do it the week of announced at the beginning of the year that it ain't going to happen and that's that. And we got to shorten it. And then, if you get it in writing for the next year, then we'll play it this year. But we need to like you get that, you get it in writing, and that's the one I'm not. Don't boycott the whole thing. Don't point out the year. That's the revenue driver and it puts it in a really rough position and it's not one that I envy. And I think the AGB tour does a lot of good. Right, it gets shit on all the time, but I think it does a lot of good. And also, they've been playing this game for a long time and it's not. It's not even to the point where, like, oh, we can't fix the schedule and take away weeks, we're adding weeks. That's a step too far for me If I'm a current player, and we're making every master series event a two weeks thing. And now, all of a sudden, world tour finals is at the end of November and we've actually progressed the wrong way. I don't know what's your choice. We're going to be talking to some people to PTPA in an upcoming episode. That's it. That's going to be an interesting episode.

Speaker 1: 53:19

I'm very curious to learn what I don't know. And they launched as a union and now they say they can't be a union. So I want to figure out what the North Star actually is for PTPA. I got in a little bit of trouble. I was doing an interview, I was home on the middle weekend of the US Open and it was basically what do you think we need a union? Someone's like we need a union and Sam's like yeah, I kind of agree. They're like, oh, ptpa. I'm like I don't know if they're a union. I mean, they're like maybe player services I don't know where the agency of Winners Alliance stops and like PTPA exists. Like well, we got card deals. I'm like, yeah, but only for the players that are in the card set. Novak has separate representation even though he's a co-founder of PTPA. His card deal doesn't trickle down to people 300 in the world. I hope I'm wrong. I don't think I am.

Speaker 3: 54:06

Well, we'll be able to ask these questions. I have a lot of questions. I have a lot of questions and listen.

Speaker 1: 54:09

I'm going to go like I have some serious questions that I think are going to be difficult, um, and I have opinions, but I also hope we get out the other side of that, because I don't question intent of the PTPA. I think Novak, you know, is completely altruistic with this, this, this endeavor, right, and they've already got their clip of me saying something so like no one will hear this, but I think it's completely altruistic. I honestly I got into the statement. Where I got in a lot of trouble was I don't think you can simultaneously be on a course to be the greatest in history and be crazy in the best way towards accomplishing that goal and start up and run a player's union. I think that's almost impossible and that was controversial and you see the emails and it's.

Speaker 1: 55:00

I was sarcastic and I apologized for it. I texted Vasek and I just said my tone was bad. But basically I said are we doing trading card deals, are we doing photo shoots or are we affecting like schedule? Are we affecting the doping protocols? I think is a massive place where they can be super effective, where listen, even if you have on your website these these are the differences between these cases and not form an opinion set and not have like a bottom line, but just say, hey, these are the differences and these are the different buckets that we're dealing with. Clarity provided to players, to the outside tennis world. So I look forward to that. Well, we settled on a date. It's going to be early.

Speaker 3: 55:36

October. It's going to come out October 8th.

Speaker 1: 55:38

It's going to come out October 8th. We're still trying to drill down which day we can actually do.

Speaker 3: 55:42

Yeah, we, we. We have it scheduled sometime the week before.

Speaker 1: 55:45

Awesome, perfect. I can't wait for that because it's maybe we disagree, maybe whatever. But I have a lot of questions. I want to know what their path is forward and what the actual expectations for PTPA can be and what's fair and what's unfair, based on what they've told us in the past.

Speaker 2: 56:04

Should be a good episode. I mean just real quick, we'll get to this with them. I mean just to reframe this a little bit, how much of this is not about the PTPA but just legally. Legally can you have a union of independent contractors, and I think some of this.

Speaker 1: 56:16

That's what they say.

Speaker 2: 56:17

It can't be ptpa defining itself, but how much of it is legally? What do they have the standing to?

Speaker 1: 56:22

represent international contractors I don't know like exactly, yeah, I mean that's, that's a whole another, but then don't. But then I don't want to have to answer for you. When people ask me about a union, if you're not a union, like I'm, I'm in a bad place. Where it's like I, I can say you're not a union and I get in trouble. But you can say you're not a union and it's fine, can't wait for that episode. Uh, is that it? Are we, are we?

Speaker 3: 56:46

I think. I think that's it. Yeah, I think that's good. Now you get to go like and subscribe and follow us on YouTube and all the channels and yeah, definitely check us out.

Speaker 1: 56:54

There's going to be no delay on YouTube moving forward for anything that you see from us. So, uh, with Apple, with Spotify, it'll be out on YouTube, uh, straight away, which will be fun. Uh, jw, good to have you back on brother, always, all right, we'll talk. See you guys, all right. Thanks, jw, thanks producer Mike, thanks techie Sean. I'm gonna go finish this ollie pop. This has been served. Thanks for watching.