Meet Julia Jones (known to many as "JJ") who joins us to share her knowledge and gritty insights within the Kiwi business and economic circles.
Through her transformative journey from the West Coast to the heights of influence, JJ exemplifies the grit and grace we all could learn from.
In this episode we're not afraid to tackle the tough issues head-on, from the risks lurking within the housing market to the seismic shifts in ideology. We weigh in on the implications of rising interest rates and JJ and I peel back the curtain on the economic conditions being experienced in New Zealand and beyond.
It's an episode that promises not just to inform but to equip listeners with a broader understanding of how to weather the economic storms ahead.
This dialogue isn't about numbers and charts; it's about the very fabric of our society and the political pulse that keeps it alive. We navigate the slightly testy waters of New Zealand's political landscape and the desire for leadership that’s decisive, yet open to healthy debate.
The episode concludes with a heartfelt nod to the power of meaningful conversation and debate and the impact it has on our communities.
Tune in for an episode that's rich with stories all shared over a virtual cup of coffee with two individuals passionate about New Zealand's future.
You can connect with JJ here.
Meet Julia Jones (known to many as "JJ") who joins us to share her knowledge and gritty insights within the Kiwi business and economic circles.
Through her transformative journey from the West Coast to the heights of influence, JJ exemplifies the grit and grace we all could learn from.
In this episode we're not afraid to tackle the tough issues head-on, from the risks lurking within the housing market to the seismic shifts in ideology. We weigh in on the implications of rising interest rates and JJ and I peel back the curtain on the economic conditions being experienced in New Zealand and beyond.
It's an episode that promises not just to inform but to equip listeners with a broader understanding of how to weather the economic storms ahead.
This dialogue isn't about numbers and charts; it's about the very fabric of our society and the political pulse that keeps it alive. We navigate the slightly testy waters of New Zealand's political landscape and the desire for leadership that’s decisive, yet open to healthy debate.
The episode concludes with a heartfelt nod to the power of meaningful conversation and debate and the impact it has on our communities.
Tune in for an episode that's rich with stories all shared over a virtual cup of coffee with two individuals passionate about New Zealand's future.
You can connect with JJ here.
We don't need to wait for them to tell us We've almost over-empowered the government by telling it that we need to wait for a direction from you before we do business. That's not the New Zealand I love. The New Zealand I love is a businessman going. You know what the government wants to do. That Whatever, fuck it. I'm going to go over here and I'm going to do this.
Speaker 2:My guest today is Julia Jones, otherwise known as JJ and JJ. I, otherwise known as JJ and JJ. I've always been impressed by you and in terms of how you seem to be able to cut across corporate New Zealand in a really real way and just connect with people across the spectrum, regardless of what industries or seniority they've got. You just connect with so many people and people just absolutely love who you are.
Speaker 1:You know, when something, something's wrong, look in the mirror. When something's right, look out the window. And I think we've flipped that now. So we go oh, something's wrong, it must be someone else's fault, and something's right. And God, I'm amazing, I've just saved the world. So we've got these bunch of heroes running around.
Speaker 2:I knew there'd from a range of guests, including those from the startup world and those that have had incredibly interesting lives and some stories to tell. I would really appreciate it if you could hit the follow button and share this amongst your friends, but, as you know, time is limited, so let's get on with it and hear from our next guest. I want to tell you a little bit about desk work. Desk work is your offshoring option. If you want to save around 50% of your total headcount cost for equivalent talent across accounting, marketing, sales, your operations or your admin, then check out Deskwork. Honestly, if I was looking to start an accounting firm again, it would be a no-brainer for me to use Deskwork. I've used offshoring teams before in the past. I got past my skepticism on being able to do it and it was so phenomenally successful. Go have a look at desk-workco backslash Greg, and book yourself a free discovery call to learn more about it. Better still, mention my name and get yourself some discounts. Check it out.
Speaker 2:Now back to the show. My guest today is Julia Jones, otherwise known as JJ, and I've known JJ for a few years now. Actually, the point of contact between the two of us is a wonderful woman who runs the Dairy Women's Network in New Zealand, aotearoa, jules Benton. Big shout out to Jules. Jules is an epic, epic, human. Jj, it's so cool to have you on the podcast today. I don't know where we'll go, but welcome.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thanks for having me and we'll go everywhere. You know like our usual conversation is 55 conversations in one anyway, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It is, and there's no scripted questions here, it's just like let's just see where this conversation goes. Jj, I've always been impressed by you and in terms of how you seem to be able to cut across corporate New Zealand in a really real way and just connect with people across the spectrum, regardless of what industries or seniority they've got. You just connect with so many people and people just absolutely love who you are. But I'd love to know a little bit about your early story. You're a coastie, aren't you? Aren't you originally from the West Coast?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, ross, the west coast of the south island and is that the? Only real west coast, by the way right.
Speaker 2:Tell us a little bit about your upbringing and how you ultimately got to be here today. What did little JJ dream of becoming, and who were you?
Speaker 1:my dream was actually? Well, I had a couple of dreams. One of them is sort of slightly embarrassing, as I wanted to be the president of the United States of America and I think when I was about.
Speaker 2:You're still thinking about that Because there's some options out there. I'm still considering it.
Speaker 1:I'm still considering it. I think there's opportunity. I might have to wait another 40 years because apparently you have to be like close to death. That's right.
Speaker 2:You're way too young Before you can do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I just got this great book and and it was called the Value Of and it was. You know, the people used to walk around, knock on doors, sell books and mum and dad bought it and it was the Value. I think it was the Value of Respect and it was about Abraham Lincoln and I mean, it's a picture book, right, it's not like I was some great savant of the child reading these big novels, but for that I just was like I want to be the president. You know, it wasn't actually. I literally had that as a goal my whole way through and I think it was around and it's going to sound cheesy, but just making a difference, and I felt like that was like this big role or I don't even know if I would have thought of it as a role just this big opportunity to kind of make a difference in the world, and so that was it.
Speaker 1:I wanted to be a fighter pilot as well, but eyes didn't really take me there and I suspect my brain and stomach constitution wouldn't have taken me there either, and so, yeah, so look, growing up in Ross was amazing. You know, growing up in a rural community, you are all about adventure. You leave the house for breakfast and you come back for dinner, and that's when you're five or six. You know, and I don't want to. You know it's not like we're up in the bush going crazy, but it's. You know you're out in paddock.
Speaker 1:We actually did go into the bush because it was a gold mining town and there was a lot of gold walkways. Well, not gold walkways, walkways to the gold mine, not, not walkways made of gold. No, no, it wasn't the wizard of oz, but it was just crazy. And you know things, simple things, like you knew not to touch the tree that had the pink circle on it, because that's where they had cyanide. They used to do possum, you know, kill the possums and stuff around there and I don don't know. It was really cool.
Speaker 1:Look, it wasn't a terrible upbringing, like I want to kind of temper it in the sense that mum and dad lost properties to mortgagee sales, like they struggled quite a bit through their life and so we moved to lots of different towns. We lived in Kawaro, we lived in Ramadi, we lived lots of different spots and they really struggled, like for them they immigrated from the UK and to give us kids a better opportunity and it worked out really well for us and it probably was really difficult for them and so there was a bit of alcoholism in the family as well. But again, we also had unconditional love and it's a hard when I talk about it. The clarity here is. I'm quite fortunate that they made us believe we could be anything we wanted to be. They didn't necessarily believe in themselves and they didn't believe they were capable of doing more, but they absolutely believed in us kids, that we were capable of anything, and I think that's the gold.
Speaker 1:But I think also that difficulty, you know, like we would get food from food banks and we would, you know. So we kind of and this is going to sound terrible, and I mean it with love, but I think sometimes I'm just so grateful for that in the sense that that hard, I know we're not allowed to say it, but sometimes you just need to harden up and get on with shit. Sometimes things are hard, you know, sometimes things are difficult, and I love that that. My childhood prepared me for life.
Speaker 2:It's funny because I was chatting to somebody yesterday and doing a bit of an early sort of prep for an interview we'll do in the next couple of weeks and she said exactly the same thing yesterday. Sometimes we just need to harden up. Sometimes things in life are tough and the best way to get through them is to not be a wallflower, to be a little bit more resilient. So with that kind of childhood, is that why you sort of pushed yourself or gravitated towards banking and finance, because money was tough and tight and you wanted to go into a different type of world where perhaps money and finance was a bit more plentiful? Is that part of a driver, or are they absolutely?
Speaker 1:I think and this will sound terrible to people and I love my parents dearly but I guess I just didn't want to be them. I didn't want to be in that situation. I didn't want to feel that living that sense of no hope or that sense of nothing bigger for me. And you know, it was probably accidental that I ended up in finance, but I definitely knew I wanted to do something big and I definitely knew I wanted to do something amazing and at the time finance was kind of the place to be. Literally it was accidental, it was a series of fortunate events.
Speaker 1:I worked for UDC and, like accounts payable, I was terrible, by the way and then they restructured so I ended up in the back office of the dealing room at ANZ. I mean, all of this was just through fortunate conversations and and I was pretty pushy you know I'd be really confident at 20 with no knowledge and I was very immature and quite stupid and say I want to be the CEO, like that was my thing, I'm going to be a CEO. I'm going to be a CEO and I would just push and hustle and learn stuff and get things done. We went through to ANZ into the back office and I think within six months. I was really lucky. I had an incredible manager she's in Vegas at the moment, leah and she really believed in me and helped me get into the front office, into the dealing room. So you know, from there the dealing room was really where it all started and, man, nothing has ever come close to how fun it was working in the dealing room Nothing.
Speaker 2:Wasn't that weird. Like John Key was in the dealing room I think I forget which bank but clearly it kind of worked out okay for him too. Why is the dealing room so so good?
Speaker 1:I think it was. And John Key fascinates me. I love that man, I absolutely. You know why he fascinates me? Because it's pretty hard to get through working in a dealing room without any kind of stains, I guess, and he just never had any. So that man had great vision. He knew he would be Prime Minister one day.
Speaker 1:There's something about the dealing room. It's the energy, it's the information. You're surrounded by like-minded people that are all quite different and, look, we would have arguments. You know, if something was happening in the day and there was a bit of a hustle, bustle, you know the adrenaline would go or there would be nothing happening. And while I'm on the phone there's people throwing tennis balls over my head, annoying me.
Speaker 1:And it was just I don't want to call it family because I know that's dangerous in a work sense, but it was a real. Maybe it was like a gang, it was just this great connection. It was the energy, it was the intelligence, the conversations, the curiosity. Everyone was always curious. We always wondered what was going to come next, and I think the big thing for me was we were always excited, no matter how good or bad the day was. So there wasn't good or bad, it was just something was happening and that was exciting. Whether or not there was an apocalypse in the economy or a big hype in the economy, it didn't matter to us. It was just an exciting moment to make something happen.
Speaker 2:And what were you dealing in?
Speaker 1:So I did currency and then went into over time. They wanted you to kind of do different things, so I did options as well, and also interest rates. And so I just look and I don't think I was a particularly smart person, but you were surrounded by these incredible humans who've been there for 20, 30 years, who they would impart their knowledge to you Like. Sometimes they would do it by yelling at you, but the transfer of knowledge was huge. So there's generational shift in knowledge all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and how did you go about sort of understanding, if you like, the economics of the world, of foreign exchange, of interest rates? Had you studied economics like what was your knowledge?
Speaker 1:No, I mean, look, I'd done like a certificate in business, so I'd done a really basic bit of study Again, not a particularly academic person. I read and I read and I learned and I listened and I observed and I watched. And you know, my first week or so in the dealing room, I think there was the Asian crisis.
Speaker 2:So I think you know I actually think 1997, sort of about yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Big shout out and big thanks to all the economic crises that happen around the world, because that's where I've learned my best lessons. But it was the learning and it was understanding what people were saying, what was happening. The clients, you know you're having all these different stakeholders you talk to. You've got the dusty old sea dogs in the dealing room that this is their fifth or sixth bloody crisis that they've seen and they just kind of are talking you through what may happen and what it looks like and how these cycles work and what will be next. And then you're talking to clients and then you're reading. You know you just read. You're constantly reading and absorbing information and observing and you watch an outcome. You know you see a currency go up, or you see a currency go down, or you see the interest rates go up or down or the equities move, and you just see. It's almost like watching everything in real time. Well, you are watching it in real time. You're watching the world change right in front of you with this data.
Speaker 2:It was just so cool and like I know that I'm just going to go off piste so many times in this conversation because it's just a bunch of things you're talking about that interest me. So do you now have a real, I guess, the ability to see those sort of macro trends economically and what's happening in the economy, and, if so, love to get your views on that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do. I was really lucky because when I went and worked at KPMG I sort of got an opportunity, because when you're in a dealing room it's very much a here and now. So it's what's going to happen tomorrow, what's going to happen, and then I sort of had my lens stretched out to sort of what happens in 10 years. So okay, that happens today, so what impact will happen in 10 years from that? So, yeah, it did. I certainly spend a lot of time thinking about the economy. I spend probably a lot of not, I guess seeing the obvious or what I believe is obvious. I get excited by it. I still check the currency and see what's happening and I just I love seeing that whole flow of one simple thing like an interest rate going up and what the impact that has through a whole economy, through enterprise, you know, through the individual, the enterprise, and then right the way through to that macro kind of global scene, which is probably more my space now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am going to go down the sort of economic rabbit hole on your views here. So I was having a conversation with somebody recently I won't say who it was because he hasn't kind of cleared that for me to talk about him but he is a guy I really highly regard. He is a quantitative, I think, just absolute expert in the world of financial markets and I was talking to him about 12 months ago about buying property in New Zealand and his exact words and I've got the explicit warning on this podcast was stay the fuck away from the New Zealand housing market over the next few years. And I said so, why is that? And he explained to me a few things. So one of the things he said is Greg, we in the last sort of 50 years we've probably had seven or eight really big recessions.
Speaker 2:You know, as you mentioned, we had the Asian financial crisis, we had the dot-com, we had the GFC, et cetera. But he said the worst one in the kind of last 50 years globally was 81-82. We had the 1970s. We had the oil crisis and inflation. The Fed, federal Reserve and the US dialed up interest rates to slow down inflation, but it took a couple of years for it to bite, and in 81-82, things were really grim. He said the data now looks more grim than then. What do you think?
Speaker 1:I think the big thing with when we overly invest in housing is it's actually not productive. And I know that sounds awful. We all need to live somewhere and I think you know so. There's a social answer to that. But on the economic side of it, that investment isn't necessarily productive. So we're not getting into businesses, we're not necessarily investing in a business or investing our capital for long term. So we want to kind of get a bum on a seat and get a widget made today as opposed to prepare our businesses for the long term tomorrow. And I think this obsession with housing it's all capital gains right. So we buy a thing with the hope that it's worth four times that or five times that or maybe 10x, depending on how long you're going to have it in the future, and that will be my retirement or that will be my whatever. And I think that we've got to be a little bit careful, because if that capital gain slows or changes or that model shifts, then what's plan B?
Speaker 2:Yeah, model shifts then what's plan B? Yeah, so interestingly, I was saying I was talking to a mortgage broker on the weekend and I was having a bit of an argument about the economy and the housing market with them, because they were, look, it's going to turn around soon and the housing prices are going to go back up again, and I said, look, my view is this. It's just as simple as this. I'm in my mid-50s, just turned 55.
Speaker 2:So my career sort of started in the late 80s, and in the late 80s and into the early 90s, interest rates in New Zealand were sort of in the low 20s. So over the last 30 years let's call it 1990 to 2020, in those last 30 years interest rates have basically tracked down over a 30-year period. They've gone from low 20s to you know whatever the bottom was months ago, and during that time housing boomed because obviously servicing just got cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and so you could buy more house. We had housing shows, we had housing do-up shows. Everything was about capital gains and making money out of property. You could make money by buying something and waiting. It's the only skill you had. That's changed. So that 30-year cycle has changed and now we've seen interest rates ticking up, and maybe they might be static, but they're certainly not going to keep diving down. Therefore, what we've come to grow used to in the last 30 years may not be what we get in the next 30. Does that make sense? Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1:or disagree.
Speaker 1:No, no, I totally get it. Makes sense. Do you agree with that or disagree? No, no, I totally get it. Like that happened a while ago. I mean, I used to work at ANZ. I ended up working in a rural banking. I was a regional manager for a rural banking team and Cam Begory was our chief economist at the time and I love Cam he's you know he's a straight shooter and he you know he talked a lot and this was in the ag sector is gone.
Speaker 1:Now it's cash flow and you know we've had decades of capital gains and now it's going to be cash flow and I think probably that housing. That's same for individuals, right? I'm not great, like I'm certainly not the world's best at managing my own funds and I think do we try and live above our means? You know New Zealanders spend till we hurt. When you talk about that gap, remember in the GFC where New Zealand was in trouble because we had to actually go and borrow money because we didn't have many depositors versus the amount of lending we had in the country. Well, that was because we lived outside our means and we had to try and get money from offshore to fill that gap or that funding gap the banks used to call it.
Speaker 1:So I think in that household impact or effect, if we are buying a property with the hope that it is worth more, so then I can borrow on it, and then I can put a new kitchen in it, and then I can put another widget at the back from it, and then when I'm retired and again it's not necessarily working on your cash flow, it's not necessarily increasing your savings or your investment and that's where KiwiSave is such a good thing, because it forces someone like me, who is probably not the best at saving, to save. That's where I love stuff like Sharesies and this is not investment advice at all, but Sharesies where you can buy shares because it's a different form of investment. It puts your money somewhere else and I don't think we're good at that diversification. We kind of worked for granddad and it worked for mum and it worked for our aunties and it will work for us and maybe it will, but maybe it won't.
Speaker 2:I think you're so right about KiwiSaver, because we are terrible at saving in this country. We're really really bad. I was talking to an investment banker in Sydney pre-Christmas and he said that the financial market of Australia in total dollar size is 500 times larger than New Zealand's. So Australia is what five or six times bigger in population and the reason for that is because they've had let's call it 10% compulsory superannuation on every employee for 40 years. It's a snowball effect. So it's really really, really interesting. You've, in my mind, you've spent a lot of time in the last few years really talking about the agricultural economy. You've obviously got sort of roots and heritage in the agricultural economy. Where do you see New Zealand's agricultural future going? Are we in a good place right now, or are things pretty challenging out there?
Speaker 1:Look, I'm going to this will be a long answer. I think that we have great opportunity that we are missing, and I think that the opportunity is huge. So we have got wool, we have got natural fibres, we have got meat, which is highly dense nutrition. We've got highly dense nutrition with our dairy. We've got things that people desire. We just haven't necessarily got particularly good at packaging it up and understanding a real brand around that. And I was actually just talking before to someone, a guy, tim Dean Dean, who owns Norswear and he's ex-banker, ex-corporate person and you know it's that branding. How do we brand or get a brand with an agriculture and also, how do we get out of our own way?
Speaker 1:I think one thing that's really really worrying me right now in New Zealand is we actually forget that we are a small island in the middle of nowhere and if we went away, no one's really going to mind, and not that they don't love us or want us.
Speaker 1:They don't need us. No one needs us. So we are really busy trying to be friends with everyone instead of trying to be important to someone, and I think with our food it's less than two percent of the global food system, so we need to actually be smart of how we export, smart how we get it into market, and that's not about necessarily getting more in. That's actually about making sure that we have connections and are important. But at the moment, I feel like when we are stuck in this government rhetoric conversation around the government's going to save us, or you know and ag in general, we just fight against each other. We don't have to worry about the vegans or anyone else that doesn't like agriculture. It's actually ourselves that we have to worry about, and so I think we are stuck in a bit of a cycle because we're looking at the world from the inside out instead of going. What does the world want to see from us?
Speaker 2:I guess farmers at the moment have got a lot of headwinds. So the vegan movement, the sustainability movement, et cetera, all good things. They make sense, but farmers are finding it really tough right now. Mental health's not great on farm, et cetera. How do we turn that mindset around to address what you talked about before, like rethinking how we take up our opportunity?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's also rethinking our language. I mean, you know there's lobby groups within farming, right? So we've got an activist group and we've got a lobby group within farming. And I'm not a psychologist, but I'm pretty sure when you tell everyone everything's shit and they feel bad, it doesn't make them feel better. So I think when we just focus on what's wrong and we don't look for some level of solution, then, and we don't look for some level of solution, then that's when we start having these mental health issues, right. And I think we've also got to be careful with that language, because I think we've told people that you have a bad year. I mean, I've probably had one of my worst years in my career of the last 12 months. I don't have a mental health issue, I'm having a really shit year and you know I'm still alive, so it's not that bad, you know.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes what we tell people is you have to be living the dream and everything's happy, and you're happy every five minutes, and that's mental wellness, and I think. And then there is mental health issues. You know my brother has ADHD and he has clinical depression and that's mental health issues. That's a chemical imbalance that needs medication to support. That's quite different from someone having a bad time.
Speaker 1:And I think in ag. I think what we've done is we've told people that things are tough and therefore you have a mental health issue. Everything's terrible, the government hates you. You know, one of the lobby groups was running around saying there was a war on farming. I mean, what a horrific, dumb thing to say when there are actually real wars happening in the world. So again, I think for farming as one financially for sheep and beef farmers is very difficult, so it's very difficult to make money the way things are set up at the moment.
Speaker 1:The environmental thing most farmers find really exciting and love, because if you don't have a good environment you don't have a good farm and you don't have product. So that's just almost a no brainer for most farmers. Unfortunately, we've got a few loud voices in the sector that seem to get the most of the airtime and make people believe that farmers don't want to be environmental and that's actually not true. I'd actually put a number and say at least 80% are focused on that and we've quietened the progressive voices and we've given too much airtime to people who just want to be noisy. We've allowed white noise to take over from progressive logic. So we've quietened our wonderful agricultural farmers who are working hard and just getting shit done, and we've let the bleaters, moaners, complainers who think it's everyone else's fault, the victims have all the airtime.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so true. And the reality of farming is that most farms not all of them, but a decent chunk are intergenerational and those farms are their homes and they want to hand over the farm in a better state and a better condition to the next generation. So, whether that's riparian planting or whatever, they love their homes, they love the land, they're deeply connected and they're working hard on that. And it feels really unjustified some of the criticism around you naughty, naughty farmers, you know. Sure, let's keep doing a better job and let's keep a focus on it, but actually these people genuinely, genuinely care about the environment and the health of their farms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you've also got to be careful in the sense of what are you? I think we've got really quick in New Zealand at judging someone else and not. You know, I remember years ago doing leadership training and I got taught you know, when something's wrong, look in the mirror. When something's right, look out the window. And I think we've flipped that now. So we go oh, something's wrong, it must be someone else's fault, and something's right. And God, I'm amazing, I've just saved the world. So we've got these bunch of heroes running around, and I think the reality of it is, you know, just because you turn the tap off when you brush your teeth doesn't mean that you're saving the planet. And I think it's an individual responsibility and let's be curious and let's understand and learn before we actually just get a knife and start stabbing people in the face.
Speaker 2:I knew there'd be a bunch of wisdom, just sort of chatting to you and listening to your stories. Now you are a keynote speaker and you're a really, really good keynote speaker. And actually I saw something on social the other day where you had a dress and that particular dress was the same colour as the massive screen behind you, so you kind of disappeared. I blended yeah, you blended in. It was just a head and some waving arms. How did you get into public speaking? Was that always a you know something that you've done since you were a kid, or did that evolve?
Speaker 1:It's actually quite a funny story. So when Fonterra were created back I think that is actually like 21 years ago or something I might be 22 now I worked ASB and they were running what we called the Large Herds Conference. So this conference and at the time, fonterra had brought in a hedging policy, blah, blah, blah boring stuff, but exciting for me and they were telling farmers if you don't like it, you can hedge against it. So they were basically telling farmers to take risk. And I was 25 and I was a little bit like as Anna Salam, naive and quite idealistic at times, and I was like why would you tell people to take risk when they shouldn't be taking risks? This is a currency. Farmers should be farmers, not currency risk people. Anyway. So at this event with 500 farmers and the Fonterra board and their CEO, I got up and said that they were terrible communicators and that they basically shouldn't be talking like this. However, I did say that it was nobody's business what the hedging policy was, anywhoos. As a result, I spent about two weeks. Anyway, I got a standing ovation.
Speaker 1:I was Don Brash, had just come out of being the central bank governor, was trying to get into politics. He was on the panel. He asked me a question around why farmers didn't borrow US dollars. I basically answered it. I said to him, don, did I answer your question? And he said no. And I got nervous and I said do you want to take this outside? So anyway, it was a bit funny and well slash, stupid. So anyway, I spent some time with Fonterra because they really didn't like me and they wanted me to be fired and blah, blah, blah, blah and this is not a slight on Fonterra, this is just a 20-odd-year-old story and they then, as a result, I got a chance to travel the country with them. So we kind of got through our you know kind of vibe.
Speaker 1:I was very lucky ASB was so supportive. There's a guy, kerry Francis, I worked for and you really get these people in your career, but this guy had my back man. He had my back. You know, the biggest company in New Zealand was basically kicking down his door saying we want her gone, even though I was just some little baby who cares what I was saying. And then from there I went on the road with them and I was writing articles and then I traveled the country talking to farmers around. Why do you need to think about a world economy when you're growing wool you know down in Southland or where I go, and so that was kind of where it all started and it just went from there and it just grew.
Speaker 1:So it's not new and I get a lot of people messaging me going I want to be a keynote speaker and I'm like, well, you actually have to go and do shit right. Well, you actually have to go and do shit right, like you don't just get up and speak, you actually have to experience something and you have to feel something and you have to have gone through stuff. And I was just really lucky that I'd gone through these crazy whirlwind experiences that put me on the platforms and put me on the stage and I was able to write articles and all these things. And then I sort of went from there to KPMG well, went through banking, where I didn't do it as much, and then I went to KPMG and I worked for Ian Proudfoot, who's just a cool dude, futurist, crazy thinker, and I got to work with him and got to do it all again and that's where I really went from this whole thing where it was.
Speaker 1:This is a 20 year journey to be a keynote speaker. You know, and I look don't get me wrong I've had training as well and I've done the basics of it. But you've got to have something to talk about, you've got to experience something, you've got to have done something to speak about. It's not just about having a blurb and speaking. You've got to feel, you've got to know, you've got to experience.
Speaker 2:And even with that experience do you still get nervous?
Speaker 1:Oh, I feel like I'm going to vomit before every conversation. I'm convinced every presentation is going to be the one that people work out that I'm not actually that good at it. And look, I prepare, I prepare, but I'm also I don't over-prepare, because you don't want to be up there and be super robotic about it, so you have to have a level of spontaneity to make sure that you read the room, that you can be a little bit agile on stage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny because I enjoy public speaking and one of the things I often say to people is yeah, it is scary, and even people who are really accomplished public speakers will feel nervous and scared. I know in my own personal experience. I forget what I'm going to talk about. So we're sitting at the front of the room because you need to be close to the stage and in a few minutes I can't remember what I'm going to talk about, but it always seems to come right. The reality is, if you are going to do some public speaking and you're thinking about it, it is scary, but lean into that and just give it a nudge, but just tell some good stories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, and be really grateful. You know, I think every single time somebody asks me to speak, I'm incredibly grateful. I'm really lucky. I've done a lot of focus and a lot of script reading in that, so I wouldn't say that I'm the best emcee in the world, but if you want some energy and a good laugh, I am okay. But yeah, I think the thing is too is be gracious and be grateful, because when you're there, that's not about you, it's about that audience and it's about the people who have got you in to speak and you have to do the very best by them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now tell me, how did you end up in Russia 10 years ago?
Speaker 1:It was hilarious. Another crazy, just series of funny events. So I'm working for Ian Proud, but he's the global head of agriculture, which he still is for KPMG, and so every now and then I'd field a few calls and I just started chatting with our Russian guys and you know you're just chatting away and then one of the calls they were like, oh, would you come up to Russia? And I was like, yeah, yeah, cool, yep. And then next week would you come up to Russia? Yeah, sure, and we were talking about strategy and agriculture and you know how New Zealand grew its export and all this At that time Russia was talking about potentially exporting food and it was quite amusing, anyway. So, and then they literally were like, oh, so you're coming up, and oh, you were serious. And so I ended up there and it was just a great experience, like scary. It was when I think Russia had just gone into Crimea. So it was the original, one of the first well, not one of the first wars, but one of the first wars I was aware of.
Speaker 1:And so I was meant to go to Ukraine but obviously couldn't go there because I wasn't insured for that and just had this great opportunity to learn completely. That was probably the biggest cultural experience I've had, in the sense of I'm really smiley and outgoing and talk a lot, and they said that our customers won't trust you if you smile too much, you ask too many personal questions, because I'd ask about the individuals, want to get to know them, and yeah, it was just. But at the same time you learn about history, you understand why people are how they are and it's just this different environment and it was just. I remember once looking out the KPMG window and there was a half-finished building and I'm talking half-finished, like you know, there was no walls in it, I think it was just kind of stone. It would have been maybe 50 stories or something crazy like that, and there was a party going on at the top of it, you know, and all I could think of was where's their health and safety standards? But it was just this kind of crazy environment where just anything kind of happened.
Speaker 1:And we went to visit a guy in his bank and as we turned up we're in a cab and Vitaly, who I was visiting is hilarious. He's like Julia, julia, look, look over there. And this guy pulls up and the two armored cars pull up back and by the front doors, his armored guards take him into the building. And I'm like you don't see this in Te Amuru. But, and he said, and I said, oh, is he? Because he's rich, they worried he's going to get kidnapped. And he said, no, he's protecting himself from the state and I, and so you know a different kind of world. And we sit in this guy's bank that he owns and he owns a farm that was 275,000 hectares of cropping land and he was buying the neighbour. That was the same. And the scale, you know the scale.
Speaker 1:Just, I literally almost couldn't understand or get my head around it how it operated. You know, even when we turned up that day, I had to give my passport to the security and because I was a foreigner at the time, there was some sanctions going on. So there was, they didn't like foreigners and there was a chance I wouldn't be allowed into the building. We met with some ministers and one minister sat there. I knew he could understand what I was saying. He wouldn't look at me, he wouldn't talk to me and he would only ever speak in Russian, which is, you know, I was in his country. I didn't expect him to speak in English, but there was no just such a cool environment, it was just such a crazy. And hey, who knows, maybe in my lifetime there'll never be an opportunity to go back. So I guess the lesson I got out of that is if a random says to you do you want to come?
Speaker 2:do this, go, do it Go, do it, yeah, and does it make you think differently about the whole Russian-Ukraine situation now? Because you've experienced time in Russia, so we have a very pro-Ukrainian view, which is great. But is there another side to that that you see, or does it give you a nuance to the situation that's going on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the nuance is that this is and again, there's never a justification for killing innocent people, so I'm not endorsing any of that. But this is thousands of years right of war and fighting, and I don't even know how to describe it, and so I don't empathize. But I kind of get that this isn't something that we can just take sides on, because at the end of the day, the innocent people dying we take their side, regardless of where they are.
Speaker 1:But, ultimately, this is thousands of years of disruption and tit for tat and I just don't know how that's ever going to change. And I don't think us taking a view on it based off our short-term view or our fluffy view when we live in a very privileged environment, is going to support or help that.
Speaker 1:One thing was interesting, though, you know during that time there was a girl from Ukraine working in the office and she was very upset because her parents worked in government, I think, in Ukraine and so they were in danger, and the Russian team were very unempathetic to that and said that she was just being dramatic, and so that was a very you could already see a friction.
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Speaker 2:Let's get back to the show. It's interesting because I always say to my kids you know if they're taking sides on an argument, do you understand both sides? You know a judge in a courtroom is not only going to listen to one side and it doesn't excuse anything that's gone on and innocent people being harmed. But it's like Israel and Palestine. There are stories on both sides, and do you understand deeply both sides' points of view? So that's a pretty extreme part of your life to be in Russia, switching completely and going to the work of charity in New Zealand and Meet the Need. How did you get involved with Meet the Need and tell us a bit about it?
Speaker 1:So Meet the Need was set up by two incredible farmers, so Siobhan O'Malley and Wayne Langford, and their thoughts were and I think it was originally Wayne's idea and I think his thought was we produce all this food, how on earth can we possibly have people who don't have food? And it was something like. His calculation was something like 0.5%. If everyone, everything we produce, we just all gave I think it was either 0.5% of it or 0.5 of that production there would be enough food for everybody. And so what that was is about a farmer donating livestock or milk and then that getting sent through to food banks, and so it's a supply chain. They asked me to come on board because I guess I was a bit of a different thinker and there was a group there's a big group of us that came on board and we were going to wait a year to launch, but COVID hit and the food security went through the floor, and so we were up and running within a very short space of time, thanks to Silver Fern Farms, who are a key partner, who are a cornerstone partner, who, if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't be here and yeah. So it's amazing and it's just like we need donations and milk and meat and money, and right now it's incredible. The need is so high. And this is not about we supply food banks and the food banks are incredibly strong in how they support people in this space, and I've grown up on food banks right, so this is really important to me. What I never want someone to do is feel shame with it. I used to watch mum cry and feel terribly ashamed that she had to go to a food bank. And now food banks we're getting into social supermarkets where there's more of a token approach, where you might pay $40 and then you get tokens and you can go and buy or get the food Rather than just getting a parcel. That makes you feel like you're getting a handout. And it's people any one of us this can happen to.
Speaker 1:I think in New Zealand we get a bit stuck sometimes and we think these are just people that didn't work hard enough. I read online. One guy was like well, why don't they? Just they need to spend less than they earn. Oh, what a great idea. Thanks, mate, I'll get a pencil. Good, I'll get a pencil good advice, you know, let me tell the person who has three jobs, who still can't pay their rent, that they just need to work a bit more and maybe save some money. And I think we've got a little bit of a disconnect around reality, because any one of us at any point could lose everything and end up needing charity or needing support and needing food, and I think the more we can support and it's only a small thing we do at Meet the Need but the more meat we get nutrition too. You know, this isn't fillers, this isn't chippies and biscuits, and those are lovely and great, but this is actually getting dense nutrition into our families, who are doing it tough.
Speaker 2:And so big shout out to the founders of Meet the Need, and that's obviously M-E-A-T Meet the Need. So check that out, and well done you for getting involved with that. That's sort of a nice segue when we talk about the attitudinal things we have going on in New Zealand around. You know, people need to just work a bit harder. You and I were chatting offline before we kicked off this podcast just about the psyche in New Zealand at the moment. What's going on? Something's shifted in our attitude. We used to have the number eight wire. We lived at the bottom of the South Pacific. I meant to wait a long time before the boat arrived with some new supplies. So we were really innovative and we were the can-do and we conquered Everest and we split the atom and we did all these great things. But something shifted and there's a palpable feeling that I'm struggling to put my finger on what it is. What do you make of the New Zealand psyche right now?
Speaker 1:I'm confused by it and worried by it. I think we're waiting for someone to save us. So we're all waiting for. You know, and it was really interesting before I did some writing for Business Desk and you know I wrote around one of my first articles is around the silver bullet of the election and it was funny. You know, we spent all our time blaming a government for something that they'd done and then, when the new government come in, everything would be magical and happy. And come in, everything would be magical and happy. And now we're beating this government up. And it's sort of the way I look at it is we are consistently waiting for someone else to make a decision and do something good. We just think someone will save us. No one is coming to save us.
Speaker 1:Governments enable what we do. We don't need to wait for them to tell us. We've almost over-empowered the government by telling it that we need to wait for a direction from you before we do business. That's not the New Zealand I love. The New Zealand I love was a businessman going.
Speaker 1:You know what the government wants to do, that Whatever, fuck it. I'm going to go over here and I'm going to do this because this is what I know and I don't mean the legal, I mean, as in doing business, strategy that makes a difference and is good for their business and good for the economy. Instead of waiting to get directions, when the hell do we need to be given directions Like, let's get brave, let's make decisions? You know, we've become really nasty about leadership. I mean, who the hell would want to be the prime minister? You're just going to get abused and beaten up, and even in our corporate environments, you know our decision makers, our leaders are they even making decisions? No, you know what we've done. We've punished them for the wrong decisions and no one makes any decisions. We are actually in limbo right now and I think it's a really dangerous place to be.
Speaker 2:You touch on a really good point around being mean to leaders. I made a LinkedIn post, probably about 12 months ago now, when Jacinda Ardern had been must have been her the New Year's Honours and she was knighted and honoured and I made a post on LinkedIn. That was me really congratulating her for the work that she had done. Now I'm an ex-National Party general manager, so my politics is centre-right, but I was praising somebody from the centre-left and I honestly I got beaten up for it.
Speaker 2:And I would say to people we live in a democracy and the joy of a democracy is we can see each other's points of view and we can say when somebody's done something we disagree with. But equally, we can look at the character and go, hey, I like that, I like who you've become, and so when you know we'd see all these conspiracies about Jacinda was this and she was that, it was just bollocks and we need to try and hold on to what makes democracy thrive because, honestly, in the world right now that's under threat. So you know, we've got to be really careful. We protect that by again looking at both sides of the aisle, understanding the issue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but democracy is about encouraging more conversation, not shutting it down. And I think we've got into these tribes right, so you can be centre, right wing and still be a huge environmentalist, correct. But in our mind we go, oh, there's no way you could be into the environment because you just want to make money or do whatever. And then the other side of it, an environmentalist, you know, a hardcore left person could be a really high, wealthy business person.
Speaker 1:Because they and I think what we've done is we've shut things down we are unable to disagree and if we don't like someone, we don't like what they're saying, we don't listen, and I think you know we have lost perspective and we have lost our curiosity and you said it before around understanding both sides. We need to understand even those we don't like and disagree with. We don't have to change our point of view and we've also got to give people the freedom to change their minds, because we get new information given to us every single day that we didn't have yesterday. That is significant, that shifts our view, and I think these people who just won't change their view because I don't want to be seen as a flip-flopper, but the reality of it is what you knew yesterday is very different to what you know today. So here's the freedom to change your mind and not beat people up for that.
Speaker 2:I completely agree. It's that sort of identity politics. I mean I'm, you know, I'm economically conservative, but I'm green and I'm socially liberal and those can coexist. You know, they don't have to live in different political parties. So yeah, I think it's super, super interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, back in the day, right, there would have been parties for the election night and people wouldn't have cared who you were voting for. I think it's just now, all of a sudden, it's you know you're a heathen if you do this, or it's just these things and you know as a country, regardless of your views or beliefs, you should question yourself. When we have a previous prime minister that lives basically with permanent security because we thought bad behaviour could be justified by cause, we have a right to threaten somebody's life because our cause is worthy and I just think it's just yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2:One of the things I do love about New Zealand politics which is not that well known is that at Christmas time all of the political parties will do drinks with one another. So they'll do Christmas drinks and you'll get an invite to the Greens drinks, the Labour drinks, the National drinks, and they're all at each other's drinks and they play sport together in the parliamentary sports teams against other parliaments. I think that's pretty rare, so you know that's something that's probably not that well known. Do you think we are brave enough policy-wise in New Zealand, or are we just too conservative with our policy? Could we be braver? And you know we talk about. We've got this opportunity for ag, for example, and we have this incredible opportunity to do something different. We've got a lot of really cool things going for us. Could we be braver and make some really radical policy shifts on some things?
Speaker 1:yeah, I don't even know if it's about being radical. I think it's about being practical. I think the reality of it is we have a lot of legislation that locks us into the status quo. So we go let's be really visionary, let's be progressive. Oh, sorry, that legislation and this is across the board, right, even in financial services, even in agriculture, across the board in construction we have legislation that locks us into the status quo.
Speaker 1:So I don't think we have any agility or flexibility in our policy and the bravery part would become creating frameworks that we have some freedom within, because every region's different, every organisation's different.
Speaker 1:You know, I'll give an RMA as an example. I don't know, you know, I'm not an RMA lawyer Was it good or bad, I don't know, but we didn't really execute it well and we didn't actually govern what we were meant to govern for it and we didn't have a consequence when people breached it. So, of course, something that we don't it's legislation is just words on a page, or policy is just words on a page if nobody actually abides by it or holds people to account with it. But if we had more flexible frameworks, that gives an outcome that we want to get and enables people to work within that framework and that gives the level of protection, then that's bravery and policy, whereas at the moment we either want to sledgehammer to get rid of all of it or we want to policy up the gazoo. So there's a policy what colour undies you wear on a Wednesday? We just haven't got a balance.
Speaker 2:I want to close by talking about you. So you have had an incredible career to date. There's a lot more career to come. I mean, for example, you attended Stanford Uni with an Emerging Leader Scholarship a few years ago, but, as I understand it, you are currently looking for your next gig and something that really kind of lights you up. What do you think is the JJ superpower? What is it that you bring?
Speaker 1:Stakeholder connection. I think I'm very good at and making shit happen. So if you've got an idea, I'm not an ideas girl, so I'm not going to come up with the next big idea, but if you've got an idea, I'm either A going to pull it apart or B find a way to make it work. We'll probably A and B together, to be honest, and also I'm going to bring a whole lot of people into your tent that you need to make that function. So it's really about connection and stakeholder management, or engagement is bringing those stakeholders that you need into the tent so that you can actually make that work and make that go faster and make it go harder.
Speaker 2:So if anybody is listening and you want to be able to get everybody gelling in that way that JJ has outlined, you need to get in touch with JJ. I will make sure there are ways that people can connect with you and LinkedIn, etc. In the show notes to this episode. You are one of these people who I just. Every time I sit down and have a conversation with you, I learn something new. I get great heart in knowing that there are people like you in our community who are just a good person, who has a strong intellect and a really direct and pragmatic way of kind of cutting across issues and connecting humans together. You really are a master at that. So I just want to thank you for your time today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I really appreciate that and, look, the best gift any of us can give other people is making them be more awesome and helping them, and I really appreciate this and I just love chats with you and we'll continue to chat with you and annoy you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Let's do that today. Hey, thanks so much, jj. Hey, don't forget to check out Deskwork, the team behind you, being able to build high performing offshore teams for your startups and SMEs. It's deskworkco. Backslash, Greg, and go and save yourself some hard-earned money.