Can We Fly Around the World Without Worsening Climate Change?

Airports and airlines broke new traffic records in 2023, and pollution from tourism is set to increase massively in the next five years. So what can we do to make aviation–and our own long-distance travels–more sustainable in the near future, reducing air travel’s contribution to global warming?

Join host Paolo Bosonin as he picks the brains of Alex Honnold, superstar climber of the Oscar-winning movie Free Solo, and Nanna Baldvinsdottir, Icelandic energy entrepreneur developing aircraft fuels made with hydrogen. 

Alex shares his philosophy for offsetting carbon emissions by installing solar panels, and reflects on modern-day exploration, based on what he learned while working with scientists during expeditions to Guyana and Greenland, with National Geographic.

The guests discuss the best strategies to decarbonize air travel in the short term, starting with putting an end to subsidies for fossil fuels. Nanna explains her plan for scaling up the production of sustainable aviation fuels, which come with some trade-offs and the challenges of sourcing the CO2 and water necessary to make e-SAF.

On Thin Ice is produced by Iceworm Media, in partnership with the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation.

Head to ballypeakoutlook.org/  to learn more about the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation, which is on a mission to safeguard the world's fragile mountain habitats from the adverse effects of global warming and excessive tourism. 

Production credits: 

Original Music: Nadir Cassim

Editorial advisor: Dave Vetter

Graphic Design: Guillaume Ory

Video editing: Mohsin Ali

Would you like to suggest guests and projects that we should cover? Do you have feedback or questions? Email paolo@iceworm.media

Transcript

00;00;06;01 - 00;00;13;12
Paolo Bosonin
Let me start with a simple yes or no question. Is it fair to say that you both like to travel and explore the world?

00;00;13;14 - 00;00;14;11
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Yes.

00;00;14;14 - 00;00;15;24
Alex Honnold
Yes.

00;00;15;26 - 00;00;22;05
Paolo Bosonin
But do you think travel can be compatible with our current climate crisis?

00;00;22;08 - 00;00;23;20
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Yes.

00;00;23;22 - 00;00;33;06
Alex Honnold
Yeah, kind of. I mean, certainly seeing new things can be compatible with with the climate crisis.

00;00;33;08 - 00;01;02;10
Paolo Bosonin
Welcome. This is On Thin Ice, a podcast by ICE, where media in partnership with the Valley Peak Outlook Foundation, we bring together big thinkers, adventurers, scientists and entrepreneurs to look at what can actually be done today to accelerate the transition to a more sustainable economy and lifestyle. I'm your host, Paula Busan, and I'm excited to be joined by two exceptional guests, Alex Honnold, who woke up early to join us from Las Vegas.

00;01;02;15 - 00;01;17;03
Paolo Bosonin
He's one of the world's best known climbers who rose to stardom with the Oscar winning documentary film titled Free Solo. But Alex is also very active on the climate front. He runs a foundation advancing solar energy around the world and a bunch of other things. Welcome to see. Nice, Alex.

00;01;17;06 - 00;01;18;22
Alex Honnold
Thanks for having me.

00;01;18;24 - 00;01;41;28
Paolo Bosonin
And here in Iceland with me, none of Baldwin started. None is widely seen as a pragmatic climate entrepreneur with decades of experience in the energy sector with a particular focus on hydrogen. She's been a prominent voice in Iceland's energy transition, and I think she was one of the first to strike a big commercial deal with an airline icelandair to provide airplanes with more sustainable fuels.

00;01;42;00 - 00;01;44;02
Paolo Bosonin
Thanks for meeting us in Reykjavik, Nana.

00;01;44;04 - 00;01;47;28
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Pleasure to be here. Thank you.

00;01;48;00 - 00;02;11;23
Paolo Bosonin
So let's dive in. Our main question, or some would call it a contradiction, is one that many of us have in our minds these days. If you care about the environment, how do you feel about taking planes to travel around? And I'd like to ask both of you, how many flights do you take every year and how important is it for you to be able to travel?

00;02;11;25 - 00;02;31;18
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
I travel a lot and my family is in aviation, and we often joke that building this ISA facility is like the only it's our only hope to actually negate our own emissions. But I'm clearly that's a joke. But yes, I travel a lot and I would like to be able to do that in a more sustainable manner.

00;02;31;20 - 00;02;42;12
Paolo Bosonin
And just a note for our listeners, SRF is sustainable aviation fuel made with electricity. We'll get back to this in just a second. But how about you, Alex? How much do you travel?

00;02;42;15 - 00;03;02;20
Alex Honnold
Yeah, I also fly more than average, for sure. Maybe less than people might think. But I would say that travel and sort of adventure travel isn't always by airplane. You know, just just because depending where you live in the world, there are a lot of ways to travel and adventure that don't require a plane. So I think when you talking about sustainable travel, I mean, obviously aviation is the big thing.

00;03;02;23 - 00;03;12;26
Alex Honnold
But I mean, you know, I did a two month expedition this summer by bicycle. And so you're kind of like, well, as you know, there's a lot of traveling and a lot of a lot of adventure. But with only the return flight home at the end.

00;03;12;29 - 00;03;17;26
Paolo Bosonin
So you may have managed to kind of reduce our carbon footprint by half.

00;03;17;29 - 00;03;32;24
Alex Honnold
Yeah, I agree. Except that, I mean, when you really get down to the accounting, it's actually way worse because there was a TV show and so then there are all these other people involved. And so then instead of being just a simple bicycle trip, they're actually, you know, a crew of eight flying to various places and you're like, geez.

00;03;32;26 - 00;03;45;20
Alex Honnold
But then, you know, but then you come back to the other side where you're like, well, it's still a way lower impact than a lot of other TV would be just, you know, the nature of that kind of like adventure content is totally different than like the Kardashians going to Europe or something. You know what I mean? It's like.

00;03;45;22 - 00;03;49;29
Alex Honnold
Anyway, I would say that calculating the emissions of all that is is complicated.

00;03;50;02 - 00;03;55;29
Paolo Bosonin
Well, and then you also need two months, which is a long time. And not many people have that.

00;03;56;01 - 00;04;17;10
Alex Honnold
Yeah. Though in some ways I think that's what makes some sorts of travel or adventure. You know, when we get into the how much we fly and sometimes I think I fly less then than people might expect just because if I do a climbing expedition or a trip, it's generally for a month or more. So like if you're going somewhere, you go for six weeks and sort of by definition you end up flying less that way because you stay places for a long time.

00;04;17;13 - 00;04;28;28
Paolo Bosonin
So here's a question for both of you. Do you keep track of exactly how many flights you take every year? And is there anything you do to specifically offset that?

00;04;29;01 - 00;04;48;26
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
I do not. I do not keep track of my flights. Perhaps a bit embarrassed to say, but I work day and night on making aviation more sustainable. But no, I do not. I think when offsetting was an option, like when it first came out as an option, I remember Icelandair started offering it. Maybe I want to say 27 or 28.

00;04;48;26 - 00;05;06;09
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
I remember I did it a few times, but then there's been so much gray negative press. I think about offsetting that. I stopped doing that and put my focus on, you know, meaningful solutions instead and really just what can we do about making aviation more sustainable?

00;05;06;11 - 00;05;24;01
Alex Honnold
Alex So I don't specifically keep track of my flights anymore. So when when I first started the Hanham Foundation, I actually did some, some sort of back of the envelope math about the emissions from my total flights of the year and back then was actually still relatively similar to what I'm doing now because I was on more climbing trips.

00;05;24;01 - 00;05;42;08
Alex Honnold
So I was like traveling sometimes. I was abroad for maybe six months of the year, though those trips were like one continuous long trip. So it's not like tons of different flights. It's actually sort of like one flight to the middle East and then a bunch of little, you know, then a month in Greece and then a month in Turkey and then a month in Israel and Jordan.

00;05;42;08 - 00;06;03;02
Alex Honnold
And, you know, so it's not like a crazy amount of flying, but it is a fair amount. But so back then, I did sort of some rough math as to how many, you know, the total emissions for a year of travel like that. And that at the time I found that one home PV like one home solar system that the life in and I did all this math for California, which is where I was living at the time, but I put solar my mom's house and so on.

00;06;03;02 - 00;06;24;16
Alex Honnold
Some of her less fortunate neighbor's homes and things like that, just random. I was kind of just like at an individual level putting solar on people's houses. And I found that the lifetime system offset was similar to one year of travel for me. So I was kind of like, well, there's some simple math for me that if as long as I'm sorting out like one family or friends or neighbor or something a year, it's like roughly in line with my years of travel, which I thought was like, this is great.

00;06;24;19 - 00;06;44;06
Alex Honnold
And then, you know, the Hannam foundation is now doing something similar on a much bigger level with the communities in greater need. And, you know, basically everything about the work that the orphanage does, it's better than that. But it was enough for me to know that the basic math kind of works and that the idea at least I can sleep well knowing that, you know, I'm probably doing more good than harm climate wise.

00;06;44;09 - 00;06;50;04
Paolo Bosonin
So it's sort of a balance sheet and you can be in the green or in the red and you try to stay in the green, right?

00;06;50;07 - 00;06;52;04
Alex Honnold
Yeah, that's kind of how I think about it.

00;06;52;06 - 00;06;53;28
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Sounds like a solar angel.

00;06;54;00 - 00;07;17;01
Alex Honnold
I don't know about that. But I mean, you know, until there are more sustainable options for flying, I mean, really the only option is offsetting in some way, or at least like mitigating in some way, trying to do more good than harm. You know, I also looked at offsets at the time and then decided that it was better to spend the money more intentionally because really, when you put money into offsets, you're basically paying somebody to do some kind of project, to have some kind of positive impact on the world.

00;07;17;03 - 00;07;22;21
Alex Honnold
And I would prefer to just choose the impact directly myself and the things that I think are best basically.

00;07;22;23 - 00;07;41;01
Paolo Bosonin
Well for people who can't do that, there certainly are more options these days to arguably buy your way into lowering emissions. Right? Just to name a couple, there are companies selling carbon credits or others selling packages to go do volunteering work with communities affected by climate change. What do you think about those?

00;07;41;04 - 00;08;00;16
Alex Honnold
That kind of stuff, though? You're kind of like if you're flying to the middle of nowhere to go help somebody in village, you're much better off wiring the people in that village some money and letting them do the work themselves than you fly in there. I mean, and that's something that we see frequently with the work that the Honda Foundation does, is that we're we're basically a grant giving organization supporting community organizations around the world.

00;08;00;16 - 00;08;18;08
Alex Honnold
So we're basically sending money to people to to implement the projects that they think are most useful for their community. And all the time we get people offering to volunteer because they basically want to fly to exotic places and like help people. And while I commend the spirit of it, you know, it's like at least people are trying to help and that's commendable.

00;08;18;08 - 00;08;44;21
Alex Honnold
That's great. I'm like, really? You want to go on an exotic vacation to help climate change? You're like, that's just obviously that's just obviously not the way that's you know, it's like if you want to help send people money so that they can do the work themselves.

00;08;44;23 - 00;09;16;16
Paolo Bosonin
Ultimately the core issues that transportation, moving things and people around pollutes a lot. Aviation makes more than 2% of global carbon emissions and it's a huge user of fossil fuels which produce about three quarters of climate heating carbon emissions. And a big problem for planes is that they actually emit gases pretty high into the atmosphere, meaning they have a greater warming effect.

00;09;16;19 - 00;09;42;17
Paolo Bosonin
And probably the biggest issue in all this is speed. Even though governments and companies broadly agree that there is an urgency to act, any action to reduce this impact is slow. For example, Airbus, the PLANEMAKER is talking about hydrogen planes maybe in 2050, which is a very long time, whereas record temperatures, natural disasters are all happening right now in glaciers here in Iceland and elsewhere.

00;09;42;17 - 00;10;00;12
Paolo Bosonin
They are mounting faster and faster. So. Nana, let me bring you in here as the question of speed is at the center of your project as an entrepreneur, you're developing something called sustainable aviation fuel. Can you tell us first what that is? And also, why do you think it's an important solution?

00;10;00;15 - 00;10;38;02
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Yeah, sustainable aviation fuels. It's a group, a category of fuels that we can make through several different processes that are usable on today's airplanes and today's infrastructure. So what we're doing on our project, my company is an H2, which is a hydrogen development company here in Iceland. We are producing or will be producing hydrogen, synthesizing that hydrogen with CO2 either from the atmosphere or from a point source, an industrial source to make jet A1 to make kerosene, but without the carbon content because it's reused CO2, it's not fossil fuel from the ground.

00;10;38;04 - 00;11;05;17
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
And that allows us to significantly reduce the carbon content in a fuel that is otherwise exactly the same as regular jet A1. That's what we use on airplanes today. So the product that we're making is chemically it looks just like Jet one, which is why you can use it on regular airplanes. This allows us to really maintain fueling infrastructure from the tank into the airplane.

00;11;05;17 - 00;11;11;22
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
We don't have to make any changes there. The only changes that we have to make in our particular project is just in how the fuel is made.

00;11;11;24 - 00;11;13;23
Paolo Bosonin
And is that technology ready?

00;11;13;25 - 00;11;30;12
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
The technology most certainly is ready. These are like five or six modules that you're putting together, and all of them are, you know, have been used commercially, but it hasn't been done on this scale before. You know, we're making a 300 megawatt project. Projects like this, they've been done at the 30 to 40 megawatt scale. Yes, they're expensive.

00;11;30;12 - 00;11;52;25
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
And yes, we know that on paper, it most certainly can be made ten times bigger. It just hasn't been done before. That's why that's not new technology, but kind of the new application of a series of established technologies. So right now you can use sustainable aviation fuels for up to 50%, a 50% blend with traditional kerosene on today's airplanes.

00;11;52;28 - 00;12;21;00
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
But we've seen with recent news that, you know, you can use 100% sustainable aviation fuel on flights. It just it hasn't been approved by the regulating body or more than 50%. But this is even though it's more expensive to produce sustainable aviation fuel, it's still kind of a low hanging fruit in the whole scheme of where we have the sort of best business cases for dropping fuels, which maybe feels a little bit strange, I think maybe to people outside the energy industry.

00;12;21;00 - 00;12;44;23
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
But like our situation is we have a site where we can produce a whole bunch of hydrogen and we can do it from very, very, very cheap because we're here in Iceland where it's all renewable power and it's inexpensive power, and we're blessed to be located next to Iceland's international airport. So if we can just synthesize this hydrogen with CO2, then we don't have to deal with any of the distribution problems.

00;12;44;23 - 00;12;52;17
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
We can we can just blend it right on site and just put it directly into the pipeline that goes up to the airport and boom, drastic reductions in CO2.

00;12;52;20 - 00;12;55;25
Alex Honnold
Where do you guys get the hydrogen or the CO2?

00;12;55;28 - 00;12;56;26
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
So the hydrogen we.

00;12;56;26 - 00;12;58;16
Alex Honnold
Make from separating water.

00;12;58;16 - 00;13;01;21
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Yeah, sustainable water, which is sustainably sourced.

00;13;01;23 - 00;13;08;03
Alex Honnold
Is sustainable water. Just water. It's just a joke because I mean, especially somewhere like Iceland where it rains, it snows a ton.

00;13;08;06 - 00;13;27;04
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Coming right out of Vegas there. Yeah, there's definitely sustainability issues with water all over the world. So yeah, a lot of these projects from Northern Africa are your desalinate water. Are you going to be then piping water past agriculture or are you going to be piping water past people that need water to put into airplanes? I mean there's all kinds of sustainability issues with water.

00;13;27;04 - 00;13;36;15
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
We have to be very, very mindful to not be taking water where we should not be taking water. And in Iceland, we happen to be quite lucky as far as the availability of water.

00;13;36;20 - 00;13;38;02
Alex Honnold
And what about the CO2?

00;13;38;05 - 00;14;03;02
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
CO2 is trickier because now the EU has put on. So there's a blending requirement. So now from 2025, all flights taking off from EU airports have to have a certain amount of sustainable aviation fuel in the tank. So that's the new rule. And they are the ones that set the rules for what sustainable aviation fuel is and how it can be made.

00;14;03;06 - 00;14;23;23
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
And now the EU has said that after the year 2041, all CO2 used in these synthetic fuels that are put into planes, all the CO2 has to come from a biogenic source, the biogenic cycle versus from industrial emissions. So they don't want any fossil biogenic CO2 you have to get from paper. Paul You have to get it from simpler agricultural process now.

00;14;23;24 - 00;14;44;13
Paolo Bosonin
Now you're saying it can be tricky to find the resources to produce sustainable fuels in general and biofuels in general, whether it's water or feedstock. You don't want to divert crops from agriculture, which could end up pushing up food prices, for instance. So how can you make sure your fuel is made in a true, sustainable manner?

00;14;44;15 - 00;15;18;14
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Well, I mean, what you're talking about is just, you know, this just biofuels just are a huge group of fuels and some of them are not made in a sustainable way. And others are the reason why South So anything that's hydrogen based, sustainable aviation fuel that's hydrogen based is called ISA E is for electricity. And the reason why the EU put a sub requirement on ISA for that is because when you make sustainable aviation fuel from hydrogen and recycled carbon, no competition with food and fodder, much lower land use, so much easier to track and trace.

00;15;18;16 - 00;15;32;24
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
So we'll know where our power comes from. We'll know exactly where our water comes from. We'll know exactly where our biogenic CO2 comes from, and it'll be much easier for us to show that we're not disrupting other natural cycles.

00;15;32;26 - 00;15;35;14
Alex Honnold
Where will biogenic CO2 come from in Iceland?

00;15;35;19 - 00;15;38;06
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
That's actually that's like our biggest problem that we have to solve.

00;15;38;06 - 00;15;39;08
Alex Honnold
That's the crux.

00;15;39;10 - 00;15;42;15
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
You're right. Biogenic CO2. It's not source of all in Iceland.

00;15;42;17 - 00;15;53;25
Paolo Bosonin
And just a quick note that biogenic CO2 comes from biomass. Sometimes it can be from wood that's burnt or from organic waste that releases carbon when it decomposes. For example.

00;15;53;27 - 00;15;57;27
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Alice has been to Iceland for long enough to know that not a lot grows here.

00;15;58;01 - 00;16;03;22
Alex Honnold
Yeah, the one day I spent in Reykjavik was enough to see that there's not a huge source of.

00;16;03;24 - 00;16;07;19
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Yes, we do not have giant paper mills or huge agricultural.

00;16;07;21 - 00;16;09;05
Alex Honnold
Or really plants of any kind.

00;16;09;08 - 00;16;11;02
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Well, watch it now.

00;16;11;07 - 00;16;13;25
Paolo Bosonin
Well, it's getting warmer. I guess more stuff can grow.

00;16;13;27 - 00;16;28;03
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Right? Well, to use. So sad to think about, but we will probably have to import it if we don't import it, we could. There is a chance that we'd be able to source it from a waste incineration facility that's being built.

00;16;28;05 - 00;16;54;07
Paolo Bosonin
Now back to the question of speed. The IATA, the aviation industry body even says SKF could contribute as much as 65% of the emissions reduction needed to reach net zero in 2050. But again, we're just seeing the first test flights. Just recently, Gulfstream and Virgin Atlantic both publicized that they'd completed the transatlantic flights powered fully by SRF. But how long will it take before this is widely adopted?

00;16;54;09 - 00;16;56;12
Paolo Bosonin
And what's your timeline now?

00;16;56;15 - 00;17;17;07
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Well, I think that the energy transition onto actual net zero for aviation is tough because it's a little ways out. Batteries, Yeah, we can fly short distances. The first pure hydrogen flight, yes, we've seen that happen. But these planes are small and they're not taking us over oceans yet when we are some years away from being able to do that.

00;17;17;08 - 00;17;45;07
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
The reason why the aviation sector in general and I think policymakers in the world are starting to realize sustainable aviation fuel, doing a fuel switch in existing aircraft that is really going to be our best bet for making meaningful decarbonization steps. Now for us our timeline. If everything goes to plan, we can start operating by year in 2027, and that is because we have to bring carbon to the site.

00;17;45;11 - 00;18;09;07
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
We have to build the thing. We have to build new power generation for this facility, even though we are selling to a user that does not need to make any infrastructure changes themselves. We still have lots of heavy long term capital investments that that have to be, you know, carefully engineered and carefully planned in order to make this happen.

00;18;09;10 - 00;18;28;07
Paolo Bosonin
Well, one thing, you know is that starting in 2028, you have a commitment from a big client because Icelandair has announced that it will purchase 45,000 tonnes of the fuel that you will be producing. I still I understand that financing at this stage isn't exactly easy to get right. So how are you getting the funding you need?

00;18;28;09 - 00;18;48;09
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Well, yes, it's hard to finance these projects for anyone you know, even big companies. It's hard to find as projects for us. You know, we've been okay up till now. Now we're sort of at a stage where we need to get bigger money in all. All the phases that are ahead of us now are expensive. So just the front end engineering on a project like this can cost upwards of $10 million.

00;18;48;11 - 00;18;57;12
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
And because I'm not a Rockefeller, I don't have the friends and family network for for that type of money. So there's definitely a need for funding.

00;18;57;15 - 00;19;08;26
Paolo Bosonin
Why do you think it's still hard to find money for innovation in climate tech more generally? And I'd like to open the question to both of you. Alex, is it complicated to get funding for your foundation as well?

00;19;08;28 - 00;19;29;13
Alex Honnold
Well, I think in general it's hard to find money for philanthropy because you're just asking somebody to give you something for nothing. I mean, realistically, it's probably easier to fund, you know, fossil fuel related startup activity than than philanthropic projects just because ultimately what you're talking about will probably make money at some point. So it's like somebody is going to see the value in that.

00;19;29;15 - 00;19;47;20
Alex Honnold
But I think, you know, I mean, the nature of philanthropy is that you're giving things away. So it's always a bit of an uphill battle to find funders. I mean, in the US anyway, climate philanthropy represents a tiny fraction of philanthropy more broadly. So when you talk about environmental projects and climate related philanthropy, it's like under 2% of what people are giving for.

00;19;47;23 - 00;20;08;17
Alex Honnold
And I mean, and most people that are, you know, philanthropic in the US anyway, are basically giving to their alma mater, like giving to their university, giving to the symphony. It's like they're basically supporting their own hobbies and their own interests. You know, it's like hardly anybody supports philanthropy. That's actually four of the greatest public common good. You know, people are like supporting the things that they think are cool.

00;20;08;23 - 00;20;22;29
Alex Honnold
Like, I love the symphony. I want to go next season, like we should probably give. You're kind of like, is that real philanthropy? Like, is that helping the people that need it the most? You know, it's great to support the arts, but I just don't know if you can consider that in the same category as, you know, climate justice sort of things.

00;20;23;01 - 00;20;47;08
Alex Honnold
The foundation supports community solar projects around the world. So the projects vary in size and scope, but basically small scale sort of grassroots organizations using solar for the betterment of their community in whatever way. So sometimes that just means simple grid tied systems where they're just saving money for a school. Let's say sometimes that means super rural, off grid where they're using, you know, power for refrigeration or for agricultural projects, for whatever.

00;20;47;16 - 00;21;08;01
Alex Honnold
I mean, there's this huge pipeline of projects. We have an open call for grants every year and we get hundreds of applications. And the last couple of years we've given 2 million in grants or so, which is like a tiny fraction of the applications we get. But so it means that we have to be pretty selective about the projects we choose, that we're choosing the ones that are the most sort of win, win win where you're like, wow, that's a good application for solar.

00;21;08;01 - 00;21;21;02
Alex Honnold
It's a great for the community. It's like helping, you know, indigenous girls in the right place and you're like, this is, you know, the kind of things we were like, Wow, that is incredible. Like, why isn't somebody funding that? Because there's sort of a dearth of funding in this space. It means that we get to choose the very best projects.

00;21;21;05 - 00;21;30;22
Alex Honnold
But realistically, we should be choosing like most of the projects, you know, because like, they don't have to be perfect. Like, I wish we could fund far more, but, you know, it's obviously hard to find people to support that kind of work.

00;21;30;24 - 00;21;36;01
Paolo Bosonin
And not a kind of startup like yours. Be a profitable commercial venture these days.

00;21;36;03 - 00;22;01;08
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Well, we are producing a products that, you know, the cost of production is 3 to 4, maybe five times greater than the price of conventional kerosene. So, yeah, I mean, that's definitely you're always there. We're always competing with a cheap and reliable product, which is from fossil fuel. I mean, the reason why we have a fossil fuel global economy is because oil is cheap and it's easy to move around.

00;22;01;11 - 00;22;17;13
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Moving into this hydrogen space like hydrogen is much more you know, you can make it cheaply, but it's really complicated to move. So it's leaky and it's a challenge to move around. But this is the job of governments. Exactly. So the reason why I mean, I commend you, Alex, is just incredible to be supporting solar development in that way.

00;22;17;15 - 00;22;43;07
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
But, you know, the reason why solar panels are as inexpensive as they are today is because there was lots of government subsidies years ago. Right. So governments stepped in and realized that if they helped this industry along, then we would eventually reach a point where we would have much less expensive solar panels. And that's exactly what has to happen with renewable fuels.

00;22;43;09 - 00;23;28;11
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
So if we had and we do have in many parts of the world serious government intervention in recognizing that the price differential between traditional fossil fuels and clean renewable fuels needs to be reduced, but we need to make the price of fossil fuels, of course, more reflective of the environmental damage that they cause. And also while at the same time we need to be supporting those that are early movers, innovators, taking the risk that will eventually lead to certainly not my facility is not going to be the cheapest in the world, but hopefully the fourth or fifth or 10th one after that, we're going to be seeing that the same type of technological advancement that

00;23;28;11 - 00;23;40;27
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
we saw in solar panels hopefully happen in renewable fuels. So we've seen this happen before. We know exactly what has to be done, and I'm optimistic that we'll see that happening.

00;23;40;29 - 00;23;52;14
Paolo Bosonin
Well, politically, it's obviously been tricky for governments to invest in a greener economy. A lot of jobs around the world still depend on fossil fuels. But do you think that's changing?

00;23;52;16 - 00;24;18;16
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
I think that there is a recognition of this certainly in the EU, and we've certainly seen recently in the US where there's been finally some meaningful climate action and some and some money going into hydrogen projects and renewable fuel projects, which is just wonderful to see. So hopefully we're going to see we're going to see that start to happen because nobody, nobody, no entrepreneur wants to develop a project that's reliant on government funding.

00;24;18;20 - 00;24;43;10
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
That's just like, nobody wants to do that. You want to just be making a product that people want and it's just made incredibly efficiently and is fit for purpose. But unfortunately, the economics are such that those projects do need help and it's not even help. Governments need to recognize that those projects need to be fostered knowing that the next project will be cheaper and the one after that will be even cheaper.

00;24;43;12 - 00;24;55;03
Alex Honnold
Though, as you were saying. I mean, if if the real price of fossil fuels reflected their their full environmental cost, then you don't really need the government stewardship, you don't need the support. It's like, you know, in some ways it is a slightly more even playing field, you know.

00;24;55;06 - 00;25;07;17
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
I mean, fossil fuels are heavily subsidized still globally. So it's not like the fossil fuel price is somehow just completely natural. All demand and supply, fossil fuel production is heavily subsidized.

00;25;07;19 - 00;25;16;28
Alex Honnold
Still is and heavily subsidized at every step along the way, like from the extraction, from distribution to refinement. And yet, I mean, every step is heavily I mean, it's crazy.

00;25;17;00 - 00;25;35;11
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Well, it's politically it's very difficult because if you let the price of fossil fuels go up when there is no viable alternative, you're not getting reelected. And we've seen I mean, that's been happening since the seventies and especially in the U.S. that's like so incredibly important. Like what's the price of gas if you're if you're going in for your second term as president?

00;25;35;18 - 00;26;00;07
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
So it's really a challenging conundrum, I think, for politicians, even the ones that want to actually, you know, take meaningful climate action, if there are price shocks in fossil fuels and people don't have an alternative, then we can be very, very devastating to economy and it can be really, really difficult for poor people.

00;26;00;10 - 00;26;17;04
Paolo Bosonin
Alex, Things have certainly been moving a bit with the Inflation Reduction Act in the US or even COP 28 talking about moving away from fossil fuels for the first time. So do you think a shift is now underway?

00;26;17;06 - 00;26;33;00
Alex Honnold
I don't think we're seeing that big of a shift yet. I mean, the Inflation Reduction Act is incredible. And actually I was on an expedition in Greenland when that was passed, and we came out from six weeks of basically no contact and remote eastern Greenland. And we came out and we're like, what's happening in the world? And and I read about the inflation reduction action.

00;26;33;00 - 00;26;51;14
Alex Honnold
I was like, Holy shit. Like, how long were we gone? Like, what happened? Like, how did that you know, because you go into the mountains with like, no idea that the US could ever pass meaningful sort of climate leadership like sort of project. And then you come out and you're like, Wow, like, have we been gone for two years and actually felt like we were gonna like, this is a pretty rugged trip.

00;26;51;14 - 00;27;25;00
Alex Honnold
But no, I think despite the efforts that the US is making, it doesn't feel any different. I mean, certainly, you know what you hear in the news, what you hear talking to people at all. It all feels about the same where nobody really cares. But what I actually think is going to be the bigger difference in the US is just the faster adoption of renewables and the faster transition towards electric vehicles, because I think that's when people stop conflating the price of gas with the general health of the economy or, you know, with election or whatever else, because, you know, it's like once everybody's driving electric and I'm sort of seeing that amongst many of

00;27;25;00 - 00;27;44;02
Alex Honnold
our friends where, you know, most people have, say, one electric car and then one sort of like long range commute. The whole idea around electric transit in the US is a little bit different because the distances are so vast, particularly where we live, where it's literally hundreds of miles to the closest next city. But, you know, so basically once you transition to electric, it's hard to go back to fossil fuels.

00;27;44;05 - 00;28;01;12
Alex Honnold
I think a good push would help it happen faster and would probably help prevent, hopefully the worst effects of climate change. But I mean, either way, you know, I mean, all forecasts are to 100% renewables and sort of hundred percent electric by by 2050, let's say. You know, it just would be better if it was sooner.

00;28;01;14 - 00;28;24;04
Paolo Bosonin
I actually wanted to ask you about Greenland, Alex. While I was preparing this episode, I saw that it wasn't just a climbing trip, but you were traveling with scientists and helping them to do some research. Can you tell us what you did over there? And also, is that part of your process now kind of adding specific goals and purpose beyond the athletic feat and the expedition itself?

00;28;24;07 - 00;28;47;20
Alex Honnold
I mean, I guess the way I look at it is that if you're going to go climbing in a remote location, it often makes sense to have a scientist or somebody knowledgeable along with you to sort of take advantage of that kind of trip. And I've done a couple of different trips this way now where you have one member of the team who's a scientist doing doing legitimate research in that place, because as it turns out, like many things in human society, basic science is wildly underfunded.

00;28;47;20 - 00;29;03;28
Alex Honnold
And so there are a lot of places that if a scientist can just get there and spend some time with their instruments doing their thing, they can get meaningful data. And so I did an expedition into the jungle in Guyana going climbing with this biologist, and we were there for a month. He discovered six new species to science in the month.

00;29;04;00 - 00;29;18;26
Alex Honnold
And I mean, basically that trip opened my eyes to the fact that with relatively few inputs you can have a pretty good impact. You know, you're sort of like, all it takes is getting the right person to the right place for some time to do its thing, and we can discover new things for humanity. I don't know.

00;29;18;26 - 00;29;35;16
Alex Honnold
I mean, it's kind of mind blowing because you think that that science is so advanced, but you're like, the reality is that there are a lot of places that are hard to get on earth and if you're going there, you should take somebody who can take advantage of it. So this trip to Greenland, we brought a climate scientist, well, glaciologist actually one of my friends described it as sort of analogous to people on the international Space Station.

00;29;35;18 - 00;29;59;15
Alex Honnold
It's like you have one astronaut basically doing projects for universities across the entire world. And that's basically what she was doing. She was kind of running experiments for maybe a dozen different universities around Haiti. Sylvester is the name of that glaciologist. She's Francine French, and she was amazing and super charismatic and super knowledgeable. But every day she would have all of her little instruments open and like reading PDFs and trying to figure out how to execute all the plans for these different universities.

00;29;59;18 - 00;30;03;20
Alex Honnold
But she was basically just collecting data for other people, for all the projects that they're working on.

00;30;03;22 - 00;30;16;20
Paolo Bosonin
And do you think these projects you're doing reflect a broader mindset change for climbers and mountaineers compared, say, to the fifties and sixties where the goal was to conquer peaks for the first time? Yeah, I don't know. I mean.

00;30;16;22 - 00;30;45;11
Alex Honnold
It's actually there is kind of a rich history of this type of scientific inquiry on expeditions, sort of classical expeditions like in the in the 1800s, almost always had a geologist and a botanist and people, you know, taking flower pressings and rock samples and bringing things back. And so, I mean there's always been that curiosity around discovery. You're right, though, that mountaineering of the 1950s and sixties became slightly more nationalist and more about, you know, conquering a peak and showing, you know, national pride and achievement and whatever else.

00;30;45;13 - 00;31;05;17
Alex Honnold
But I think that with modern climbing, there is a much greater awareness around the fragility of the planet. And so you just wind up with a slightly greater obligation to try to do something useful for the planet, you know, whether that's scientific inquiry or or sort of humanitarian efforts like helping communities that you visit along the way or whatever else.

00;31;05;17 - 00;31;16;27
Alex Honnold
I just think that in the modern world, it's everybody knows that there are issues that maybe should be helped with, you know, like basically there's a lot to be done. And so I think that as a modern climber, you feel a certain obligation to do something.

00;31;17;00 - 00;31;18;27
Paolo Bosonin
So what's your next big thing?

00;31;19;00 - 00;31;33;24
Alex Honnold
I don't know. I mean, so the trip to Greenland that we're talking about will be a TV show on National Geographic. But that was a year and a half ago. And then this summer, we did an expedition to Alaska, which had sort of a similar, similar idea to we are sort of exploring the forests. And in southeast Alaska, it's like the largest temperate rainforest in the world.

00;31;33;29 - 00;31;41;27
Alex Honnold
For now, though, actually, my wife is having a second child here. You know, we're having another child soon. So basically we're just at home waiting for baby number two to come.

00;31;42;00 - 00;31;44;12
Paolo Bosonin
Wow, Congratulations. That's a huge project.

00;31;44;14 - 00;32;01;15
Alex Honnold
Yes, I know. I know. Big expeditions for a while. I don't think.

00;32;01;18 - 00;32;17;18
Paolo Bosonin
It's almost time to wrap up. And I'd like to get your thoughts on one more thing. Why do we as humans feel this need to travel and do we really need to continue to do that? Nana, why is it so important for you to continue to travel?

00;32;17;20 - 00;32;50;09
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
You know, one of the reasons why I am doing what I'm doing and I've had the career that I've been blessed to have is because of travel. It's because of growing up in two places, growing up with both in the US and in Iceland. I don't want to sound corny, but, you know, just connecting with people that have a different experience and that grew up in different cultures and spoke different languages and all the wonders that this world has to offer, it motivates me to action, and I know that it motivates others to action as well.

00;32;50;14 - 00;33;08;02
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
So I think that it's really important to me. I mean, I get an emotional connection to the thought of being able to fly sustainably, but I think it's also important to keep understanding why other areas of the world are important. And I think that the best way to do that is through travel.

00;33;08;05 - 00;33;14;21
Paolo Bosonin
Alex, Do you also feel that call for action when you travel and visit other places and meet other people.

00;33;14;23 - 00;33;36;06
Alex Honnold
There going to Greenland? You have very few cultural interactions compared to traveling other places because there are no people where we are going there. It's like it's like the most remote landscape in the world practically. But no, I mean, I totally agree that a lot of what I know about the world is, is because of travel and just interacting with other cultures, like seeing other landscapes and just, you know, experiencing the world around me.

00;33;36;06 - 00;33;58;27
Alex Honnold
And I'd say that much of the reason that I that I care about the world around me is, is because of having traveled talking about sustainable travel. There's one thing that maybe ADD is that, you know, I travel for climbing, which is also work, and I'll travel for for work like events and things. But I basically I don't know if I've ever traveled for personal things like, you know, my friend's birthday or like a concert or whatever else.

00;33;59;00 - 00;34;14;13
Alex Honnold
Part of that's because my work is quite enjoyable. And so traveling for work is like easy and, and show and I get enough of it, but I basically never fly for, you know, family things here like vacations or, you know, I have a lot of friends that are like, I'm going to Denver for a concert. And I'm like, Why?

00;34;14;15 - 00;34;27;13
Alex Honnold
We live in Las Vegas? There are a lot of concerts here. You know, It's like you can just drive down to the strip hike, you could bicycle down to the strip and see a concert. Like, why the heck would you fly to wherever you know, or like your friend's bachelorette party in, like some exotic location? You're like, Why?

00;34;27;16 - 00;34;42;09
Alex Honnold
And I know it's easier for me to say that because, like, I do the thing I love to do all the time, and I'm like, going climbing is amazing. I love an amazing destination for climbing. And so it's easy to be very content with my life and not feel like I need to travel and see people in different places.

00;34;42;12 - 00;34;51;08
Alex Honnold
But, you know, for people trying to cut down on flights, like that's the easy place to start. Like, yeah, it's my uncle's birthday. You're like, face time, you know, It's like, who cares? You don't have to fly.

00;34;51;11 - 00;35;16;06
Paolo Bosonin
Well, as a society as a whole, it's really hard to know if and how we will be able to reduce our missions. For now, the data don't look good. Just to give you one number I have here, the United Nations says we need to cut emissions from tourism by 50%, but the industry's emissions are actually forecast to grow by 25% by 2030, compared to 2016 levels.

00;35;16;09 - 00;35;38;09
Paolo Bosonin
So we're not, of course, at all. At the same time, there are some positive indicators. We were talking about investment and it's a fact that there has never been nearly as much investment in clean energy technologies globally. So my final question is, would you bet that we will manage to reduce our emissions from travel or not?

00;35;38;11 - 00;36;02;17
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
I think that short term I am incredibly pessimistic. So I think in the next 5 to 10 years, I think we're going to be seeing terrible, terrible climate disasters, even worse than the ones that we've been seeing in the last decade of recent years, which are, you know, heartbreaking. But I think that all of the technology is available today for net zero society.

00;36;02;20 - 00;36;26;04
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
And I don't think I would have said that two years ago. But today, Iceland, 350,000 people and fairly wealthy, and we could in theory decide to just put everything full blast to go net zero within five years. It's possible. It's totally possible, which I don't think is going to happen. I think that in the short term we're going to continue to see emissions rise.

00;36;26;04 - 00;36;52;20
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
We're going to continue to see unsustainable tourism grow, terrible climate disasters that are going to affect marginalized and poor people. Worse and women. And that makes me very sad. But I think that long term, we will, you know, ten, 15, 20 years out, we're going to learn the hard way that that these decisions need to be made and that we have to we have to actually walk the walk instead of just talking the talk, which I see too much of today.

00;36;52;22 - 00;37;09;20
Alex Honnold
A Roughly agree with Dan on that. I mean, I mean, I'd say by nature I'm a pretty optimistic person. And so I you know, I generally believe in human progress and but I would take a what Nana just said and at a slightly more optimistic slant to it, which is that you're totally right that that all the technology exists.

00;37;09;20 - 00;37;27;28
Alex Honnold
Like, you know, we have the capability to to live in a basically environmentally friendly world, but we just haven't chosen to yet because conditions haven't really forced us to. These basically nobody ever wants to do a hard thing. And this is their last option. You know, it's like we'd rather just stay comfortable and not do something hard unless we absolutely have to.

00;37;28;01 - 00;37;45;18
Alex Honnold
And so I think, you know, you're basically right that it seems like humanity is just giving it a few more years until conditions get hard enough that they're willing to sort of get out of bed and do the hard thing. But to me, that that's in some ways a grounds for optimism because it's like everything's there. We just have to choose to do it.

00;37;45;18 - 00;37;56;26
Alex Honnold
And, you know, so far we haven't chosen to yet. But but that's the thing about a choice like that is at any moment you can kind of wake up and be like, okay, it's game time. Here we go. And, you know, we could start. I mean, that's the part that I think I'm optimistic about.

00;37;56;28 - 00;38;17;20
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Well, you're up. You're you're choosing. You wake up and you choose. I wake up and I choose, you know, God knows it's not always easy to develop a product like this, but I still choose to to continue to do that every day, not only because I want to, but also because because it has to be done. I think that group of people is growing, you know, just around me.

00;38;17;20 - 00;38;35;11
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
I feel like there's there are people around me that are taking meaningful climate action. I am optimistic about all kinds of stuff that's happening. But I am pessimistic in the fact that we are on a delay. There going to be a lot of lives that are going to be adversely affected by climate change in the coming years, unfortunately.

00;38;35;13 - 00;38;56;25
Alex Honnold
May I add one other closing thought, something I was thinking about earlier, hearing, you know, hearing you talk about sustainable aviation fuels, like I don't want to to sort of conflate what you guys are doing with sustainable future and what we're with a lot of nations trying to do philanthropically because I think sustainable aviation fuel has the potential to to basically change the world and like in or drastically reduce global emissions in certain ways.

00;38;56;28 - 00;39;15;20
Alex Honnold
And what we're doing philanthropically is a tiny, tiny, you know, it's like a grain of sand on a beach of humanity. Like it's barely doing anything, though obviously it has an impact for the specific human communities. But I think the important distinction, though, is that even if it's something like sustainable aviation fuel, it changes the world, reducing emissions, you know, sort of like greens, aviation, and that's all great.

00;39;15;22 - 00;39;33;01
Alex Honnold
The reality is that there are always people sort of left behind by these types of of transitions. And I think that's where philanthropy fits in. And so I think that that the projects at the heart of the nation are supporting are the types of projects that need to be funded no matter how many other gains are made in sustainability globally.

00;39;33;06 - 00;39;52;03
Alex Honnold
You know, as we see the world transition to renewables, as we see the world transition in a lot of different ways, you're like, that's amazing. And that's great for most humans on Earth, but there are still many who are just not benefiting from those kinds of changes at all. And I think that that's always going to be the realm of philanthropy that will remain important work in the foreseeable future.

00;39;52;05 - 00;40;09;15
Paolo Bosonin
And of course, all of this work we're talking about is still very early stage. I'm thinking about sustainable aviation fuels. Even if we were to put 100% S.F. into planes, they would still be throwing a lot of bad stuff into the atmosphere when they fly. So we're really just starting to address the problem.

00;40;09;16 - 00;40;32;23
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
Yeah, but I think it's really important to note that when you're getting economies of scale and projects like this and you want to build a big project in order to reduce emissions from all flights taking off for a in Iceland by 15%, once we have that facility up and running, it's not terribly challenging to increase hydrogen production. It's not terribly difficult to add on Electrolyzer capacity, but it's that big client, it's icelandair, it's player, it's Lufthansa.

00;40;32;23 - 00;40;53;07
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
They're the ones that really would be paying for the build out of the big facility. But once that big facility is there, it actually makes it an option for construction companies to buy hydrogen equipment for Koch services, to buy hydrogen coaches. It just becomes much, much easier to, you know, at the societal level to piggyback off of a big commercial project.

00;40;53;09 - 00;41;12;26
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
So, yeah, I mean, I want to get this thing built, You know, that's certainly what I wake up in the morning and and do what I do. But I'm also optimistic that it will unlock energy transition options for the community that surrounds the project. So I'm hoping that's the first step. I'm not I'm certainly not going to be retiring after I get this thing built.

00;41;12;26 - 00;41;18;05
Nanna Baldvinsdottir
I'm going to think about where I'm going to build the next one.

00;41;18;07 - 00;41;40;11
Paolo Bosonin
This was a very robust discussion. Thank you so much to both of you for sharing your exceptional experiences and knowledge in this field. I'm really glad we were able to have you both in the same room for this podcast. Speaking of which, I'd like to thank the Hilton Reykjavik Nordica for hosting this recording session today. And this was all possible thanks to our great team On Thin Ice has original music by Nadir Kazim.

00;41;40;14 - 00;42;04;19
Paolo Bosonin
Our script editor and editorial advisor is David Robert Vetter. And crucially, credit goes to our partners at the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation. The foundation is very serious about defending mountains around the world from the impact of climate change and excessive tourism. Check out their website to see what they're doing in the Himalayas, in the Alps, in other places, on thin ice is a production by Ice water media.

00;42;04;19 - 00;42;16;19
Paolo Bosonin
We're just getting started, but we have many more great episodes coming up. Let us know what you think. Subscribe to our podcast feeds and our social media channels to get new episodes and bonus content. For now, goodbye.