Can We Save Everest From Pollution and Melting Ice?

Mount Everest, the world’s highest mountain, faces an environmental crisis, giving us a preview of the devastating effects of climate change. While the ice on its glaciers is melting at a record pace, increasing the risk of floods and other disasters, mass tourism has brought garbage and other pollution issues for local populations.

Climbers Conrad Anker and Dawa Steven Sherpa have worked together in the Everest Valley. Today, they are both taking action. In this episode of On Thin Ice, they discuss how climbers and local communities can work together to protect the mountain and its people from climate threats.

Conrad is one of the most iconic alpinists of the past three decades, and he has witnessed the dramatic transformations brought by climate change to mountain environments everywhere; he is now working with local communities and experienced Sherpa mountaineers to help make ice climbing safer in the region, as the glaciers become more unpredictable. 

Dawa, a board member of the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation, is a famed mountaineer, serial entrepreneur and climate advocate, representing a new generation of Nepalis who are trying to develop a sustainable tourism industry–one that respects local traditions as well as the mountains they live off. Dawa has worked relentlessly to develop programs such as “Carry me back”, one of the key projects supported by the foundation, to reduce pollution and other negative impacts of tourism in the Everest Valley.

How can the local Sherpa communities handle the tons of trash left behind by tourism? How can climbers mitigate the risks of glacier collapses and avalanches? These are some of the vital questions they address on the mountain on a daily basis, as they look for answers that could also help other alpinists around the world.  

On Thin Ice is produced in partnership with the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation.

Head to ballypeakoutlook.org/  to learn more about the foundation, which is on a mission to safeguard the world's fragile mountain habitats from the adverse effects of global warming and excessive tourism. 

Production credits: 

Original Music: Nadir Cassim

Editorial advisor: Dave Vetter

Graphic Design: Guillaume Ory

Video editing: Iceworm team

Would you like to suggest guests and projects that we should cover? Do you have feedback or questions? Email paolo@iceworm.media

Transcript

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This is the sound of climbers on Mount Everest.

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In this video shot last year, they are crossing the Khumbu Glacier.

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That's the highest glacier in the world.

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And yet a lot of the ice up there is quickly

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turning into water and forming strange ponds and puddles

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surrounded by melting ice towers and seracs.

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Conrad and Dawa, you've both spent a lot of time on that glacier.

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Should we be worried about how climate change is transforming the mountain?

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An unequivocal yes.

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Yes, of course.

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And do you think there's anything we can do about it?

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We can.

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But I think the focus right now in the short-term

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should be on saving ourselves more than saving the mountain,

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because I think the mountain is going to be here much longer

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than we are going to be if we keep on doing what we're doing,

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Near-term, it's going to be,

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it's going to be very difficult.

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Welcome.

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This is On Thin Ice, a podcast by Iceworm Media, in partnership

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with the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation.

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We bring together the best athletes,

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scientists and innovators to discuss concrete solutions

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for accelerating the transition to a more sustainable way of living.

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I'm your host, Paolo Bosonin, and I'm just stoked

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to welcome our amazing guests today.

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Let's put it like this.

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If you've watched any film about alpinism or mountaineering,

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then you've heard his name before.

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Conrad Anker is a legendary American climber.

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He's appeared in a number of documentaries, The Wildest Dream

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Meru, Torn, Fine Lines, just to name a few.

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And now he joins the On Thin Ice podcast.

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It's an honor to speak to you, Conrad.

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Thank you, Paolo. Appreciate being here.

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You're currently in Nepal.

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How's the climbing going over there?

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Yeah.

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I spent the winter here in Nepal, specifically the Khumbu area.

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So we started out with the Khumbu Climbing Center vocational training

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for high-altitude Nepalis and climbing enthusiasts

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and celebrated 20 years of that and then went ice climbing for a month.

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And then the first ten days of March clinic’ing and climbing

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with the Icefall Doctors who you got a chance to meet with last year.

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And with you in Kathmandu, we have another superstar.

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And I'm not just saying that because we're friends.

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Dawa Steven Sherpa is an entrepreneur, a mountaineer,

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and crucially, a prominent climate advocate in Nepal.

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He's a board member of the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation.

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And, well, he's basically the co-creator of this podcast.

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Thanks for accepting my invitation to come on as a guest

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Dawa you run an expedition company.

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Is it busy right now?

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Yeah, the short answer is it's very busy.

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Everest seems to get busier and busier.

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The mountains of Nepal

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do seem to get busier and busier, and there's been a boom since after COVID.

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Well, that's very relevant to

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our main question today, which is how can we protect

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Mt. Everest and other pristine mountains from the environmental crises they are facing?

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You mentioned there's a boom.

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As many as 60,000 tourists visited the Everest Valley last year,

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bringing, of course,

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dollars and business opportunities, which is great for Nepal's economy.

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But tourism also brings some big environmental challenges.

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Garbage and pollution is a big one,

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especially as climate change is completely transforming the mountain.

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So I'd like to start with that. Conrad,

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You've been traveling to Everest for three decades.

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How much has the landscape changed

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since you first visited?

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Yeah, my first trip to the Khumbu Valley was 1990, and we climbed.

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Ama Dablam, and looking back this past winter and then

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correlating my visual

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experience with images from 1990

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that the photographer Chris Noble took on our expedition.

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It's amazing how much of the high altitude cryosphere.

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So the cryosphere is the ice mass that's in the mountains.

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Everything from hanging glaciers with seracs to larger glaciers to ice

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frozen in between the cracks that’s the glue that holds those mountains together.

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But looking at the mountains, they look anemic.

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They it's just been so warm.

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There's been two warm monsoons and two warm winters.

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And so Nepal is, even though there are four seasons,

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there's two seasons that define Nepal and really, going there.

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And the key part about the monsoon is the greatest snow accumulation

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and also the greatest snow loss is in that period.

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Winter’s cold and windy, the jet stream comes down.

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It's that break in the jet stream

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before the monsoon comes up that allows climbers to get up Everest.

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But seeing this now, we

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the mountains just look

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very dry and to back this up always listening to other climbers

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Andrzej Bargiel, the Polish skier that skied down Camp II,

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they were at Everest Base Camp two years ago,

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post-monsoon to catch good snow.

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And at Everest Base Camp, it rained every day.

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And they were, just like

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we were watching ice melt before our eyes.

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And so if it's warm, that's one thing.

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But you compound that with water and it's very obvious

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the Khumbu Glacier is is receding, but also at the same time deflating

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and there's less volume in mass on the glacier.

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Dawa, how would you describe

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those changes as a person who grew up here

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and whose family has been in the Valley for generations?

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Conrad's been here a long time.

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I've been here a fraction of that time.

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It's maybe half that time in the mountains.

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In the last 20 years, I myself have seen so much

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Changing, and I go to Everest Base Camp every year,

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And every year the pinnacles are lower, the pinnacles at Base Camp

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the ice pinnacles.

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And then you also see the level of the glacier getting lower and lower.

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So, I mean, I've seen it in my own lifetime and my family's

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been in the Khumbu now for 19 generations

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we've been there.

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And so from what I hear from my father and then my uncles,

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I mean, it's a very different place than what they grew up with.

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I mean, I'll give you a very clear example.

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Just within my own family, my dad was one of the first kids

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to learn to speak English in Sir Edmund Hillary School.

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And as such, he got a job as a

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as an interpreter at the age of 11.

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And he went with the Japanese team when he was 11 years old

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to Lotse, which is just south of the Everest massive [massif?].

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And there they camped at

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what is today the Imja Lake.

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If you go to Imja Lake today, it is about two kilometers

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long, over a mile long, I think it's over 100 meters deep.

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But when my dad was there 60 years ago, that was all ice.

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And, you know, he remembers actually being on the glacier, playing on the glacier.

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Now you need a boat to go where he was.

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So that's that's a huge change in just one generation.

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So basically there are lakes that didn't exist before.

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Glaciologists say they actually threaten the local populations.

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And Imja Lake is is a big one and one of the main ones, right?

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Yeah, that's correct.

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And we live with sort of the

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the emotional aspect of it, not the academic aspect of it.

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And I'll explain, what I mean by that is, we get a lot of researchers

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who come there, and I've worked with

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quite a few teams as well who go there and research,

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you know, what has changed in the last decades.

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How deep is the lake?

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You know, how big is it, how fast growing? And so on.

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But I've also been on the other end

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of the emotional side is that two years ago,

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a small little pond broke out at the Lotse glacier.

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It wasn't the Imja glacier, it was the Lhotse glacier, which is, they are side by side.

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And then the phones started ringing all over the Khumbu

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and even here in Kathmandu at 2 a.m.

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in the morning, I got a call saying that Imja Lake had burst out

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and all the people were running and I had to call up everybody I knew.

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And I had to tell them, like get to higher ground right away.

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And I have a little lodge down in Phakding and I have people there.

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And I had to tell them, you know, like, run,

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you know, get out of the valley, get to high ground as quickly as possible.

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And this this wasn't the first time it's happened as well, about eight

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or nine years ago when the entire valley evacuated,

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when they thought that Imja had burst out.

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And this is going to happen more and more because it's not just Imja.

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There's far more glacial lakes now forming in the mountains.

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And that's a very big concern for us.

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This is not just a glacier melting into a lake,

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it’s actually threatening the lives and also the livelihoods of the people there.

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So if one were to burst out and

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people did survive it, what then? They've lost their homes,

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they've lost their their fields,

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they've lost their cattle, they've lost everything.

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So then how do you go into the future?

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So those are the, you know, concerns that me and my family live with.

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Conrad,

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as a foreigner, how do you feel about what you see

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when you see the mountain and its people affected by climate so much?

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Yeah, it's a treat to be a guest in the Khumbu and to experience it.

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And I enjoy being there for the mountain scenery

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and moreover, the people and the culture that are there and welcoming

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and on a personal level with the Khumbu Climbing Center, we began our program

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20 years ago in partnership with Nepali climbers,

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and we would go skiing during the

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during the course. In these last two seasons, there hasn't been enough snow

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for the villagers to ski in the potato fields

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and on the slopes around town, which is a big... everyone loves skiing

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and skiing is an all-encompassing term.

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It includes children on on kerosene jugs flying down the mountain,

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other people, anything that slides, there's all sorts.

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But it's a joyous moment.

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And it's also very important for the sustainability of these communities.

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They need the moisture, the precipitation for their potatoes and barley.

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Can you just tell us in one sentence

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what the climbing center is?

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To encourage responsible climbing practices in a community supportive base program.

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So that's the overall mission statement.

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But vocational training for Nepali climbers,

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not necessarily high altitude workers, but anyone from Nepal

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that wants to learn more about climbing, whether from a professional sense

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or they're just inquisitive and they want to learn how to climb.

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So 1,480 students, so we're 20 shy of the 1,500 mark have graduated

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And it's yeah, we talk about science, we talk about climate,

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we teach Earth sciences and and national wildlife appreciation

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in the course of the program.

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So we've talked about the visible, very real consequences of warmer

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temperatures in the Khumbu Valley. To complete this picture,

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If you look at those magnificent Everest landscapes today,

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there's another thing you'll notice, and that's

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a lot of garbage.

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Famously, Everest was labeled the world's highest garbage dump

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in many sensationalistic headlines

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by the foreign press, including National Geographic.

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And yet, when I came over to Base Camp last year, Dawa,

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I saw much, much less pollution than I was expecting.

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As you and I have been talking about.

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That's also thanks to you, although I know you don't want to get credit for it

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because you've been working to address this issue for many years.

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Can you please tell us what you have done and also what's left to do?

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So when I first started climbing,

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I went to Everest in 2007

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and at that time there was a particularly

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disgusting incident that,

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you know, I realized that Everest was yeah, it was pretty bad, right?

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It needed to be cleaned up.

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And basically I had to set up

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camp on top of an old toilet site.

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And that that experience haunts me to this day.

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And yeah, it was it was really sad

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for me because, you know, we pray to the mountain,

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she is considered holy, yet, you know, we were polluting her.

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And I think, you know, at that time what I saw was that, you know,

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it was up to us, the mountaineers and especially the Sherpas

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who are there all the time, go in year in, year out to do something about it,

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because the foreign mountaineer, unlike Conrad, of course, and a few like him,

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the foreign climber will only come once in their life

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and then they will never come back again.

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But we are there year in, year out, and it was up to us to do it.

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And in the past, cleaning mountains,

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any mountain, let alone Everest, cost so much money.

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So it was in 2007 that I realized an opportunity

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and that opportunity was the fact that all the Sherpas were going up

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with a lot of loads and setting up camps, you know, depositing the oxygen

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and food fuel and then coming back down with empty backpacks.

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And so what I did was I reached out to all my buddies,

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all my friends, all the Sherpas at Base Camp, and I said, Hey, listen,

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if you find any trash on the way down, just collect it

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and bring it to Base Camp to me and every day we’ll weigh it.

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And I called it the weighing and the paying.

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So the whole scheme, I called it Cash for Trash.

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And so Cash for Trash,

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Actually, I didn't think it was going to be

00;15;07;21 - 00;15;10;21

that successful, to be honest.

00;15;10;23 - 00;15;15;07

The first year I ran it, the next year, that was 2007 to 2008, I ran it

00;15;15;07 - 00;15;19;05

for the first time and in that one season I ran out of money very quickly.

00;15;19;05 - 00;15;23;24

We ended up collecting six tons of garbage just that one year

00;15;23;26 - 00;15;27;11

and in subsequent years now there's been less and less and less

00;15;27;11 - 00;15;31;07

garbage that, you know, we've been collecting.

00;15;31;07 - 00;15;33;02

So much so now that at least at Base Camp 

00;15;33;02 - 00;15;36;28

I can, you know, say that there's no garbage.

00;15;36;28 - 00;15;40;10

The only time that we now find garbage at Base Camp is right

00;15;40;10 - 00;15;43;10

after the monsoon, when the glaciers melt.

00;15;43;12 - 00;15;47;14

And when my Sherpas go there, all the old garbage has been melting out.

00;15;47;14 - 00;15;53;09

I have even found a little bottle, an aspirin bottle

00;15;53;09 - 00;15;57;15

or medicine bottle with an expiration date from 1962.

00;15;57;17 - 00;16;01;08

And this is all swallowed up by the glacier

00;16;01;08 - 00;16;04;23

many decades ago and it is getting spit out now.

00;16;04;26 - 00;16;07;16

So, you know, the lower parts

00;16;07;16 - 00;16;10;25

of the mountain we've been cleaning you know, I'd been cleaning,

00;16;10;25 - 00;16;14;25

but the upper parts of the mountain were always tough for me to do

00;16;15;00 - 00;16;18;24

simply because, you know, just asking people voluntarily to do it,

00;16;18;26 - 00;16;22;19

was not going to cut it because it requires

00;16;22;19 - 00;16;26;13

technical gear, oxygen, you know, and a lot more dedication.

00;16;26;13 - 00;16;30;24

And so that's when Bally, and I partnered up

00;16;30;26 - 00;16;34;13

and we set up a cleaning team that would go into the death zone

00;16;34;13 - 00;16;37;13

right up to the summit and clean right from the top to the bottom.

00;16;37;14 - 00;16;39;13

And that's how that partnership grew.

00;16;39;13 - 00;16;43;10

And to this day now, we've done every year cleanups at Base Camp.

00;16;43;10 - 00;16;47;06

We've done cleanup at every single base camp over 8,000 meters in Nepal.

00;16;47;09 - 00;16;51;09

And we are committed to keep doing this until there's no garbage left.

00;16;51;09 - 00;16;56;12

And, you know, I'm very proud to say that we've collected

00;16;56;12 - 00;17;00;12

more than 26,000 kilograms of garbage until now.

00;17;00;15 - 00;17;03;00

And we'll keep at it.

00;17;03;00 - 00;17;06;17

And we've also taken the lessons learned on Everest, and we've used it

00;17;06;17 - 00;17;12;21

in the lower down valleys with projects like the Carry Me Back project.

00;17;12;21 - 00;17;16;12

And we can talk about that a little bit later.

00;17;16;15 - 00;17;17;21

Well, just for context

00;17;17;21 - 00;17;20;12

before we do, listeners should of course

00;17;20;15 - 00;17;23;02

appreciate how hard it is

00;17;23;02 - 00;17;28;24

to bring garbage or anything back, not only from the top of Everest

00;17;28;24 - 00;17;32;26

for obvious reasons, because you're at Camp 4 I think you're at 8000 meters,

00;17;32;26 - 00;17;38;19

so it is quite challenging even just to get there, let alone bringing down stuff.

00;17;39;18 - 00;17;43;23

But also the rest of the valley, like the whole Khumbu Valley

00;17;43;23 - 00;17;46;23

and the trails that lead to Base Camp.

00;17;46;25 - 00;17;51;13

There is more than 30 miles of trails that aren't accessible to vehicles.

00;17;51;13 - 00;17;55;25

And so all of that basically needs to be brought down

00;17;55;25 - 00;17;59;08

either by foot or sometimes by helicopter.

00;17;59;08 - 00;18;00;12

It needs to be flown out.

00;18;00;12 - 00;18;06;01

So what is Carry Me Back and why is it helping?

00;18;06;04 - 00;18;10;07

Carry Me Back is a project that the Bally Peak Outlook

00;18;10;07 - 00;18;13;16

Foundation is supporting and it's being implemented

00;18;13;16 - 00;18;16;14

by the Sagarmatha Pollution Control Committee

00;18;16;14 - 00;18;20;04

and our local partner Sagarmatha Next as well.

00;18;20;06 - 00;18;25;11

And basically it is utilizing this

00;18;25;14 - 00;18;29;12

the problem source as also being the solution.

00;18;29;12 - 00;18;32;29

And what I mean by that is the tourists are the ones

00;18;32;29 - 00;18;36;23

that are creating the pollution, directly or indirectly.

00;18;36;23 - 00;18;37;09

Right.

00;18;37;09 - 00;18;40;17

And so all these this pollution, this garbage goes into the local pits

00;18;40;17 - 00;18;41;13

and so on.

00;18;41;13 - 00;18;45;07

And so you know that the pits have been growing and growing and,

00;18;45;07 - 00;18;46;16

you know, either they're being,

00;18;46;16 - 00;18;49;23

you know, the garbage is being burned

and then buried, which is not good for

00;18;49;23 - 00;18;53;14

the air, is not good for the ground or just being left alone,

00;18;53;16 - 00;18;55;29

which is not good for the ground, not good for groundwater

00;18;55;29 - 00;18;59;09

and definitely not good for the wildlife, who come to dig it out.

00;18;59;11 - 00;19;00;17

So Carry Me Back

00;19;00;17 - 00;19;04;01

Basically is collecting all this garbage,

00;19;04;04 - 00;19;07;14

old, as well as newly produced garbage, separating it

00;19;07;16 - 00;19;12;09

and then shredding it into little, manageable

00;19;12;09 - 00;19;16;27

bags of one kilo each that any tourist or any trekker

00;19;16;28 - 00;19;20;19

who is going down to Lukla can voluntarily carry down.

00;19;20;21 - 00;19;22;26

And this has been very successful.

00;19;22;26 - 00;19;27;04

The collection center right now is in Namche

00;19;27;04 - 00;19;31;25

and already ten tons of garbage has been taken down to Lukla.

00;19;31;27 - 00;19;36;15

And at Lukla, the local airlines have committed

00;19;36;15 - 00;19;40;01

to fly the garbage for free and have already done so.

00;19;40;08 - 00;19;43;25

So they've done it for the last three or four seasons now, bringing

00;19;43;25 - 00;19;46;27

all this garbage from the Everest region to Kathmandu for free.

00;19;47;03 - 00;19;52;28

And in Kathmandu, we have a garbage recycling company called Blue Waste 2 Value

00;19;52;28 - 00;19;56;29

and they take it over and then they upcycle it or recycle it.

00;19;57;05 - 00;19;59;29

So it's sort of like

00;19;59;29 - 00;20;02;29

closing that loop and bringing all the garbage down

00;20;03;04 - 00;20;06;28

and keeping the Khumbu clean sustainably.

00;20;07;00 - 00;20;11;03

So there's a lot going on in Nepal right now in this space.

00;20;11;03 - 00;20;14;27

Now, there are new rules for tourists who visit.

00;20;14;27 - 00;20;20;25

And can you tell us a little bit what has the Nepalese government put in place?

00;20;20;25 - 00;20;22;20

And is it enough?

00;20;22;20 - 00;20;26;02

It's not perfect and it's an ongoing dialogue.

00;20;26;17 - 00;20;30;04

But it is a step in the right direction.

00;20;30;11 - 00;20;35;11

And, you know, the one that is very famous right now

00;20;35;11 - 00;20;37;00

all around the world, people are talking about it

00;20;37;00 - 00;20;41;10

is, you know, having to carry poo bags off the mountain, off of Everest.

00;20;41;10 - 00;20;44;04

I mean, we've been doing it.

00;20;44;04 - 00;20;46;20

I mean, I've been doing it since 2008 already.

00;20;46;20 - 00;20;49;21

And I know that

00;20;49;21 - 00;20;53;21

Conrad and the the wider

00;20;53;21 - 00;20;57;27

climbing community has been doing it for many years before that.

00;20;57;29 - 00;21;00;10

Yeah, there's

00;21;00;10 - 00;21;03;28

the human waste on the glacier is definitely a consideration.

00;21;03;28 - 00;21;09;00

And it has a multiplying effect

00;21;09;00 - 00;21;13;05

because then people get sick if they're at the South Col

00;21;13;05 - 00;21;16;06

is debilitating and then that puts people at risk.

00;21;16;06 - 00;21;21;18

And then now the outflow has a pretty high E.coli count,

00;21;21;18 - 00;21;26;07

and that's coming from human waste that's been on the glacier and then

00;21;26;09 - 00;21;28;19

just sort of flowing out of there

00;21;28;19 - 00;21;31;07

and it's yeah, on

00;21;31;07 - 00;21;33;02

props to Dawa for changing

00;21;33;02 - 00;21;37;21

the narrative of how people approach waste and how to look at it

00;21;37;21 - 00;21;41;21

and sort of getting a nation-wide part of it.

00;21;41;21 - 00;21;47;14

But a lot of the rubbish that we see on on Everest is distracting.

00;21;47;14 - 00;21;48;07

It's visual.

00;21;48;07 - 00;21;50;27

A lot of microplastics that are in there.

00;21;50;27 - 00;21;54;11

But what's really changing the glaciers,

00;21;54;11 - 00;21;59;16

the ice of the Himalaya is people like myself

00;21;59;16 - 00;22;04;11

getting in a jet and flying across oceans to get there to visit.

00;22;04;11 - 00;22;07;18

And the other part I was in the Khumbu this winter

00;22;07;18 - 00;22;11;11

for 78 days, and I began my trek from Lukla

00;22;11;15 - 00;22;16;18

and I finished my trek from Lukla, and the amount of people that are

00;22;16;21 - 00;22;22;26

that hike to Base Camp or to Kalapattar and then fly out is, I mean

00;22;22;29 - 00;22;24;16

that's something.

00;22;24;16 - 00;22;28;16

And I was there at the helipad helping out with some friends

00;22;28;16 - 00;22;33;17

and overheard this conversation from a couple

00;22;33;17 - 00;22;35;10

that was waiting to get picked up and they were like,

00;22;35;10 - 00;22;37;18

this is the best and it's so boring.

00;22;37;18 - 00;22;38;28

We've already seen it.

00;22;38;28 - 00;22;39;25

They were just

00;22;39;25 - 00;22;43;03

they were kind of justifying the price that they were paying for the helicopter

00;22;43;03 - 00;22;44;19

by saying they weren’t going to see anything.

00;22;44;19 - 00;22;48;15

But you hike down the valley, you have an entirely different view.

00;22;48;15 - 00;22;52;19

So encouraging people to go as minimal as possible

00;22;52;19 - 00;22;55;24

and then to hike and

00;22;55;24 - 00;22;59;24

hike out, hike in, helicopters are there for rescue.

00;22;59;24 - 00;23;04;08

They're there for human resources and things like that.

00;23;04;08 - 00;23;07;23

I was rescued by the helicopter in 2016

00;23;07;23 - 00;23;11;00

and so I see their value.

00;23;11;00 - 00;23;12;24

But the

00;23;12;27 - 00;23;15;17

the amount of

00;23;15;17 - 00;23;17;23

heli-tourism up and around Base Camp

00;23;17;23 - 00;23;21;27

is something that needs to be studied and understood.

00;23;21;29 - 00;23;22;13

Yeah.

00;23;22;13 - 00;23;26;17

No, not only the the heli-tourism, but just tourism in general.

00;23;26;20 - 00;23;32;10

I don't think, I'm not aware of any sort of study being done about

00;23;32;20 - 00;23;36;20

what the carrying capacity is of the Everest region in terms of number of tourists.

00;23;36;23 - 00;23;42;03

And you know, adding to to Conrad's point here about studying what

00;23;42;07 - 00;23;45;26

heli-tourism impacts might be, we need to do a larger study of

00;23;45;29 - 00;23;49;26

what the impacts will be when the road finally touches Lukla.

00;23;50;02 - 00;23;54;13

And people are no longer dependent on the seasonal flights, but can drive

00;23;54;13 - 00;23;58;25

any time of the year, all seasons to the Everest region.

00;23;59;02 - 00;24;02;24

I think we're going to be seeing numbers go from 60,000 a year

00;24;02;24 - 00;24;06;20

to 600,000 people a year and then what's going to happen?

00;24;06;20 - 00;24;11;18

So I think again, coming back to the point about the local government

00;24;11;18 - 00;24;14;05

making these rules and regulations, I think it’s good

00;24;14;05 - 00;24;18;07

because they've started to already take into consideration the future.

00;24;18;09 - 00;24;23;25

And I think they need to keep on doing this, keep on addressing issues

00;24;23;25 - 00;24;28;01

that might happen in the future before the problem even arises.

00;24;28;03 - 00;24;32;07

I just want to add a note for viewers who may not be familiar with the Everest Valley

00;24;32;07 - 00;24;37;19

Lukla is the place you fly to from Kathmandu in general.

00;24;37;19 - 00;24;41;17

And then from there you have to walk up to Base Camp.

00;24;41;17 - 00;24;43;00

But there are helicopters.

00;24;43;00 - 00;24;46;10

And so some people just

00;24;46;12 - 00;24;50;12

buy helicopter trips to expedite their visit.

00;24;50;12 - 00;24;52;03

And Dawa you work in tourism.

00;24;52;03 - 00;24;55;03

So this is also

00;24;55;06 - 00;25;00;24

how you make money and what you do for a living.

00;25;00;24 - 00;25;03;28

So what's the right balance between offering packages,

00;25;03;28 - 00;25;06;28

offering comfort, convincing tourists to come,

00;25;07;01 - 00;25;10;07

but also protecting the environment and thinking about what

00;25;10;07 - 00;25;11;29

the mountain can actually sustain?

00;25;12;17 - 00;25;15;24

I think it's been proven now that in places like Nepal,

00;25;15;24 - 00;25;19;02

where tourism is,

00;25;19;02 - 00;25;22;01

where the local people are so dependent upon tourism

00;25;22;06 - 00;25;27;01

that tourism needs to go hand in hand with environmental conservation,

00;25;27;03 - 00;25;30;04

because if they are at odds with each other,

00;25;30;11 - 00;25;33;11

it’s going to do more damage to both sides.

00;25;33;11 - 00;25;36;11

Let me give you an example.

00;25;36;18 - 00;25;40;09

Some of the places that are as beautiful as the Everest region in Nepal,

00;25;40;09 - 00;25;44;05

that see no tourists: wildlife poaching,

00;25;44;08 - 00;25;48;09

wildlife smuggling, as well as illegal timber.

00;25;48;16 - 00;25;52;19

I mean, you know, those are the biggest industries if tourism isn't there.

00;25;52;21 - 00;25;56;08

So you know, tourism is a force for good

00;25;56;08 - 00;26;00;26

because it makes people protect the natural environment,

00;26;00;26 - 00;26;04;24

because they understand that there is a financial or economic value

00;26;04;24 - 00;26;08;20

in keeping it, let alone, of course, the spiritual

00;26;08;20 - 00;26;12;01

and even the emotional value of having a pristine environment.

00;26;12;01 - 00;26;16;13

But, you know, at the end of the day,

00;26;16;15 - 00;26;21;00

you know, if it impacts the fact that whether your kids can go to school or not,

00;26;21;00 - 00;26;24;23

if you can, you know, buy new clothes for your wife or not, you know,

00;26;24;23 - 00;26;27;29

those are important things as a provider in your family

00;26;27;29 - 00;26;30;02

and if you can't answer that, then you are going to find

00;26;30;02 - 00;26;33;28

for an alternative solution to make sure that you can provide for your family.

00;26;33;28 - 00;26;38;11

And if it's not tourism, it'll be something worse.

00;26;38;14 - 00;26;41;22

So tourism is a force for good in the context of Nepal

00;26;41;22 - 00;26;45;27

and the type of tourist that we get here are normally also people who love

00;26;45;29 - 00;26;47;22

the mountains who love the natural environment.

00;26;47;22 - 00;26;51;02

That's why they go through the pain of walking weeks

00;26;51;02 - 00;26;52;20

on end through the mountains, right?

00;26;52;20 - 00;26;56;25

And so this is the type of tourism that we want.

00;27;02;00 - 00;27;03;09

As you both mentioned,

00;27;03;09 - 00;27;07;06

all these environmental issues we've been talking about have consequences.

00;27;07;09 - 00;27;10;15

They are interrelated and they have far-reaching effects.

00;27;10;15 - 00;27;15;21

If you think that roughly 1 billion people in India and China

00;27;15;23 - 00;27;19;09

rely on the Himalayas for water, for example.

00;27;19;12 - 00;27;21;22

And if we start at the top of the mountain, climbers

00;27;21;22 - 00;27;25;27

are first in line to witness the damage brought by higher temperatures

00;27;26;00 - 00;27;28;02

now climbing has always been dangerous.

00;27;28;02 - 00;27;33;28

But Conrad, is it even more dangerous now because of climate change?

00;27;34;01 - 00;27;35;18

My observation

00;27;35;18 - 00;27;39;26

on the Khumbu Icefall and some of the higher angle,

00;27;39;26 - 00;27;44;16

steeper routes is that they are becoming safer and easier

00;27;44;18 - 00;27;47;24

with climate change. And everyone's going to freak out,

00;27;47;25 - 00;27;52;00

The Economist had an article just this past May saying that 17 deaths,

00;27;52;07 - 00;27;56;03

11 of those deaths of last year, which is highest year of

00;27;56;03 - 00;27;59;28

mortality on Everest, were due to inexperience.

00;28;00;02 - 00;28;04;22

But imagine, if you will, a river coming down

00;28;04;24 - 00;28;05;27

at flood stage.

00;28;05;27 - 00;28;08;28

And if you're a boater, a kayaker, you understand it's

00;28;08;28 - 00;28;12;04

absolutely crazy to never like that when it's really low water.

00;28;12;04 - 00;28;16;17

You can sneak around and lower water is more tranquil.

00;28;16;19 - 00;28;21;02

So there's yeah, and it's more dangerous

00;28;21;02 - 00;28;24;19

in the height of summer when the ice is not holding things together.

00;28;24;19 - 00;28;27;18

So if you've tried to chip ice off

00;28;27;18 - 00;28;30;24

of your sidewalk and you live in a cold climate

00;28;30;26 - 00;28;34;04

when it's really frozen, you understand how important that is.

00;28;34;04 - 00;28;35;11

And then when it's

00;28;35;11 - 00;28;38;03

there's a little bit of water underneath, you can move it all off in a day.

00;28;38;03 - 00;28;43;07

And we hit those tipping points when when people are in the mountains in these

00;28;43;10 - 00;28;47;14

climate tipping points, warm events, yes, it's going to be more dangerous.

00;28;47;14 - 00;28;51;17

But Dawa and I were talking about the fact that there's less ice

00;28;51;17 - 00;28;53;07

coming down through the icefall,

00;28;53;07 - 00;28;54;25

it's not being replenished.

00;28;54;25 - 00;28;57;01

Yes, it's still a very dangerous place,

00;28;57;01 - 00;29;01;08

but you don't have that mass of water cascading down.

00;29;01;11 - 00;29;05;11

So, yeah, and routes

00;29;05;11 - 00;29;09;13

that I've observed over the decades in the Khumbu,

00;29;09;16 - 00;29;14;05

what was a hanging glacier with a serac,

00;29;14;08 - 00;29;17;09

a crumbly edge, and it calves off and falls down,

00;29;17;09 - 00;29;21;23

those have now melted back and it's

00;29;21;25 - 00;29;24;17

the mountains aren't quite as fearful as they once were,

00;29;24;17 - 00;29;27;06

they don't have that power to them.

00;29;27;06 - 00;29;30;13

But again, this is my observation,

00;29;30;13 - 00;29;35;09

We're going to break with the norm here on the Thin Ice podcast

00;29;35;09 - 00;29;39;10

because Dawa and Conrad are like, yeah, there's less ice there

00;29;39;10 - 00;29;40;26

and it's not moving as fast.

00;29;40;26 - 00;29;44;15

And things, you know, we've other things to be concerned about.

00;29;44;18 - 00;29;44;29

Yeah.

00;29;44;29 - 00;29;48;07

So just talking about Everest and the dangers there,

00;29;48;07 - 00;29;53;11

what I have noticed is, not on the climbing route itself,

00;29;53;11 - 00;29;56;17

so like not on the icefall, but on the western shoulder,

00;29;56;17 - 00;30;01;24

on the Lho La Pass that we're getting much bigger avalanches coming off of that.

00;30;01;24 - 00;30;05;02

And every year the glacier does

00;30;05;03 - 00;30;09;15

seem to be receding higher and higher up.

00;30;09;17 - 00;30;10;13

I remember 

00;30;10;13 - 00;30;14;11

in 2010,

00;30;14;11 - 00;30;18;06

there was a huge avalanche that came through from the Lho La Pass

00;30;18;06 - 00;30;19;26

and dusted all of Base Camp

00;30;19;26 - 00;30;23;09

and then the Icefall Doctor at the time, Ang Nima,

00;30;23;11 - 00;30;27;02

and my uncle Parthemba, both at that time in their sixties,

00;30;27;09 - 00;30;30;19

both said, wow, that's the biggest avalanche we've ever seen at Base Camp.

00;30;30;21 - 00;30;34;12

And you know, I was quite surprised by that,

00;30;34;12 - 00;30;38;28

you know, to be able to witness something like that. 

00;30;39;05 - 00;30;43;04

And today, those avalanches coming from the Lho La Pass, from the western shoulder,

00;30;43;06 - 00;30;46;28

they're happening quite frequently,

00;30;46;28 - 00;30;49;28

the ones that come all the way into Base Camp and dust everything.

00;30;49;28 - 00;30;56;01

Last year in the fall, I had a team at Base Camp,

00;30;56;04 - 00;31;01;06

well away from Nuptse, another mountain on the Everest massive,

00;31;01;09 - 00;31;04;11

And there was an avalanche that came off of Nuptse, probably

00;31;04;11 - 00;31;09;02

one of the little tongues that you know coming down from from the Nuptse

00;31;09;03 - 00;31;13;20

Is that the west face? Yes, north-northwest face.

00;31;13;23 - 00;31;18;23

And it actually blew the entire camp away

00;31;19;00 - 00;31;21;13

And it injured a couple of my Sherpas.

00;31;21;13 - 00;31;27;25

And this was, you know, in October, early October.

00;31;27;27 - 00;31;30;22

These sort of things are happening quite often now.

00;31;30;22 - 00;31;34;03

So I don't know.

00;31;34;03 - 00;31;36;01

I think it's a transition phase.

00;31;36;01 - 00;31;39;03

And when all that ice is gone from above Base Camp

00;31;39;09 - 00;31;43;08

and then it recedes far enough back, that Base Camp is going to be fine.

00;31;43;11 - 00;31;44;28

But in the meantime, we are seeing these big, big avalanches

00;31;46;15 - 00;31;47;00

coming and hitting Base Camp, not always injuring anybody,

00;31;50;20 - 00;31;52;25

but anybody who's close to that,

00;31;52;25 - 00;31;55;08

like when they're going on their way to the icefall

00;31;55;08 - 00;31;57;23

or if they're in the icefall and it's coming from

00;31;57;23 - 00;32;02;12

the western shoulder, then there is potential to get hurt or killed.

00;32;02;12 - 00;32;05;29

And in fact, in 2014, that did happen

00;32;05;29 - 00;32;09;22

and over a dozen Sherpas did get killed in an event like that.

00;32;09;22 - 00;32;11;00

And I

00;32;11;02 - 00;32;13;25

I hope that,

00;32;13;25 - 00;32;18;03

you know, we either

00;32;18;06 - 00;32;20;20

the seracs stop

00;32;20;20 - 00;32;25;02

melting and grow again and don't collapse so often,

00;32;25;04 - 00;32;28;05

or they completely melt away so that they don't collapse

00;32;28;09 - 00;32;33;16

because at the end of the day, the result is that people are getting killed.

00;32;33;29 - 00;32;35;00

Dawa, with your expedition company

00;32;35;00 - 00;32;38;28

you take the responsibility of bringing people to the top

00;32;38;28 - 00;32;45;20

of the highest mountains on on Earth, and the risk of death is very real.

00;32;45;22 - 00;32;48;17

Is that getting more complicated now?

00;32;48;17 - 00;32;52;16

And how do you navigate those risks?

00;32;52;19 - 00;32;57;06

I think the the biggest risk and has always been

00;32;57;08 - 00;33;00;10

is when it comes to mountaineering is the weather

00;33;00;11 - 00;33;04;07

and although technologies have greatly improved in recent years

00;33;04;07 - 00;33;08;15 

and so the number of people getting caught out in bad weather

00;33;08;15 - 00;33;10;06

and getting killed is far less now,

00;33;10;06 - 00;33;12;18

than it used to be in the past.

00;33;12;18 - 00;33;15;12

And every meteorologist that I speak to

00;33;15;12 - 00;33;19;14

is saying that the weather is getting more and more unpredictable

00;33;19;21 - 00;33;24;00

and severe weather systems are more and more becoming the norm now.

00;33;24;02 - 00;33;27;26

So leaving everything aside, just not being able to know

00;33;27;26 - 00;33;32;27

what the weather's going to be doing and the severity of that,

00;33;33;00 - 00;33;37;17

the weather, if it becomes, you know, malicious

00;33;37;20 - 00;33;41;11

the consequences are going to be much more serious.

00;33;41;14 - 00;33;44;09

At the end of the day, when something goes wrong at high altitude,

00;33;44;09 - 00;33;47;17

it's the Sherpas that have to come in there and save the day.

00;33;47;17 - 00;33;52;15

And as long as you have enough Sherpas on your team

00;33;52;17 - 00;33;55;17

who are able to do that work, that

00;33;55;17 - 00;33;57;27

to execute a rescue operation or

00;33;57;27 - 00;34;00;29

whatever, whatever the need may be,

00;34;01;02 - 00;34;05;27

then you have a better chance of being safe on the mountain.

00;34;05;29 - 00;34;09;04

Then, of course, having more oxygen available, more resources

00;34;09;04 - 00;34;10;05

available, all of that.

00;34;10;05 - 00;34;13;25

Unfortunately, though, that all costs money.

00;34;13;28 - 00;34;19;19

And the trend on Everest is to sell cheaper and cheaper.

00;34;19;20 - 00;34;21;27

Not, you know, sell better and better.

00;34;21;27 - 00;34;25;29

And that, unfortunately, does put climbers at risk,

00;34;25;29 - 00;34;29;18

both Sherpas and foreign climbers.

00;34;30;22 - 00;34;32;06

Conrad, of course,

00;34;32;06 - 00;34;37;17

you have had a lot of experiences and you've seen things going wrong.

00;34;37;20 - 00;34;41;00

People who have watched your films know that you have experienced grief

00;34;41;00 - 00;34;46;20

and the death of climbing partners and and close friends.

00;34;46;22 - 00;34;49;26

I hope you don't mind me asking, but has that changed

00;34;49;26 - 00;34;54;29

your perspective on climbing and the way you approach your practice?

00;34;55;01 - 00;34;56;19

Yeah, climbing is what I do.

00;34;56;19 - 00;35;02;02

It's been my life and it comes at a steep cost

00;35;02;02 - 00;35;06;19

in terms of loss of people and and all that.

00;35;06;19 - 00;35;10;25

But I'm also an atheist.

00;35;10;27 - 00;35;11;29

I live in the moment.

00;35;11;29 - 00;35;13;19

I live in the present.

00;35;13;19 - 00;35;15;01

I appreciate people.

00;35;15;01 - 00;35;19;11

And yeah, if climbing brings me joy, I'm going to keep doing it.

00;35;19;13 - 00;35;22;08

So I don't know how to answer that.

00;35;22;08 - 00;35;27;00

I still struggle with it before I go to sleep.

00;35;27;03 - 00;35;27;28

With a family and

00;35;27;28 - 00;35;30;28

having raised our boys, they're now adults.

00;35;30;28 - 00;35;34;12

Yeah, the consequences of loss are

00;35;34;12 - 00;35;37;23

pretty significant.

00;35;37;25 - 00;35;40;05

But at the end of the day, with

00;35;40;05 - 00;35;44;03

7 billion people, or where we're at now on this planet,

00;35;44;03 - 00;35;48;02

and as long as you're not harming other people

00;35;48;05 - 00;35;52;20

and you're not undue harm to the environment, then we should...

00;35;54;09 - 00;35;56;06

And climbers are good people.

00;35;56;09 - 00;35;58;07

I mean,

00;35;58;07 - 00;35;59;29

when Dawa and I climb together,

00;35;59;29 - 00;36;02;24

it's he and I are in a team.

00;36;02;24 - 00;36;04;02

Our enemy is gravity,

00;36;04;02 - 00;36;05;26

the weather, some of the things we talked about.

00;36;05;26 - 00;36;11;15

But of course, when we play some sport, we have a

00;36;11;17 - 00;36;13;12

a shape made by humans

00;36;13;12 - 00;36;17;01

with a clock, a ball, rules, all that other stuff,

00;36;17;01 - 00;36;18;27

and we're pitting human against human.

00;36;18;27 - 00;36;22;28

And so we're creating an artificial sense

00;36;22;28 - 00;36;25;15

and that's what team sports are and why we love watching

00;36;25;15 - 00;36;28;25

football matches and the World Cup and all of that.

00;36;28;25 - 00;36;29;16

We get it.

00;36;29;16 - 00;36;32;24

But the basis of the way

00;36;32;26 - 00;36;36;19

in which humans communicate when they're outdoors

00;36;36;21 - 00;36;42;11

taps into this very primal like this, the oldest part of being human.

00;36;42;11 - 00;36;45;25

We're still out there and we're still

00;36;45;27 - 00;36;47;22

going against

00;36;47;22 - 00;36;50;20

the environment and building that connection with people

00;36;50;20 - 00;36;55;07

that's the magic of climbing.

00;36;56;03 - 00;37;00;21

Dawa the Sherpa community, of course,

00;37;00;24 - 00;37;03;05

also faces these questions every day.

00;37;03;05 - 00;37;08;05

As you said, Sherpas have to come in and save the day if something goes wrong.

00;37;08;07 - 00;37;13;15

So how do you feel about these dangers

and about this risk?

00;37;13;17 - 00;37;17;08

It is a business that me and my family have been in.

00;37;17;11 - 00;37;21;29

I mean, I was born into this, into climbing, into mountaineering.

00;37;22;01 - 00;37;25;23

And we, like Conrad,

00;37;25;23 - 00;37;29;05

we have lost so many good people.

00;37;29;08 - 00;37;32;08

And it's the

00;37;32;09 - 00;37;34;05

it's one of those things,

00;37;34;05 - 00;37;38;13

you know, that when you say bye to someone, there's always something

00;37;38;13 - 00;37;42;21

you know, in the back of your head, you know, and you always

00;37;42;23 - 00;37;43;29

you always pray.

00;37;43;29 - 00;37;45;22

I mean,

00;37;45;22 - 00;37;47;20

I am spiritual.

00;37;47;20 - 00;37;50;14

I'm a Buddhist and I do my prayers.

00;37;50;14 - 00;37;54;13

I know there's a good life after this one for those who do good.

00;37;54;16 - 00;37;56;17

And that's what I believe in.

00;37;56;17 - 00;38;00;05

And that's you know,

00;38;00;08 - 00;38;03;24

that's why I do a lot of the things I do.

00;38;03;24 - 00;38;05;00

I know that,

00;38;05;00 - 00;38;08;01

you know, working in the mountains and trying to make it a better place

00;38;08;01 - 00;38;13;13

will give me more merit for the next life.

00;38;13;16 - 00;38;15;16

But at least when it comes to this life,

00;38;15;16 - 00;38;19;11

you know, I would also like to see that, you know, we are safe.

00;38;19;11 - 00;38;22;25

I myself, as well as all the climbers that come with me, all my Sherpas.

00;38;22;25 - 00;38;27;15

And yeah, it's very tough.

00;38;27;18 - 00;38;30;14

But like I said, the

00;38;30;14 - 00;38;32;27

there are very few alternatives to this.

00;38;32;27 - 00;38;37;09

And especially in a country like Nepal, the biggest source of employment

00;38;37;12 - 00;38;40;16

for young people in Nepal is to go and work as migrant

00;38;40;16 - 00;38;43;16

laborers in the Middle East, in the Gulf countries,

00;38;43;21 - 00;38;49;09

which arguably is not much safer than climbing the mountains. 

00;38;49;11 - 00;38;50;27

Given the choice,

00;38;50;27 - 00;38;55;06

you know, mountaineering is better because at least you’re in your own country,

00;38;55;06 - 00;38;59;02

you have respect, global respect, and you make equal pay

00;38;59;08 - 00;39;02;11

or even more pay than you would do in the Gulf countries.

00;39;02;11 - 00;39;06;29

So if we could just make it safer, if we could make it better

00;39;06;29 - 00;39;12;00

in any way, then, you know, we need to put every effort behind it.

00;39;12;02 - 00;39;15;09

Now, circling back to our main question before we wrap up,

00;39;15;12 - 00;39;18;12

what can actually be done to protect Everest

00;39;18;13 - 00;39;20;11

and people on it?

00;39;22;04 - 00;39;24;17

Everest is going to be there,

00;39;24;17 - 00;39;28;29

but it is a barometer of what we're doing to the environment.

00;39;28;29 - 00;39;33;25

And so if we can't figure out

00;39;33;27 - 00;39;37;04

the Everglades in Florida, which is a swamp land

00;39;37;04 - 00;39;42;13

and we can't listen to what Everest is telling us and we're muting

00;39;42;16 - 00;39;46;05

the information that the world is giving humanity

00;39;46;05 - 00;39;51;16

on how to address climate change and in that sense,

00;39;51;18 - 00;39;53;09

specifically to Everest,

00;39;53;09 - 00;39;58;03

a comprehensive, carrying capacity study that would outline

00;39;58;03 - 00;40;04;20

how many climbers can visit the mountain from a ecological planet

00;40;04;20 - 00;40;10;10

standpoint, health of the glaciers, the sociological standpoint,

00;40;10;10 - 00;40;15;02

a cultural standpoint and an esthetic standpoint, building all that in there.

00;40;15;02 - 00;40;20;17

Denali in North America, highest point there, has a

00;40;20;19 - 00;40;24;06

has a carrying capacity of 1400 climbers a season.

00;40;24;09 - 00;40;26;03

Aconcagua, Montblanc, 

00;40;26;03 - 00;40;31;27

a lot of these popular mountains have that and once there's

00;40;31;29 - 00;40;34;29

that carrying capacity, you can address

00;40;35;02 - 00;40;38;18

how people get there three different ways.

00;40;38;19 - 00;40;41;13

One is the old school way, which was ability.

00;40;41;13 - 00;40;43;21

If you're not good enough, the mountain’s going to sort you out.

00;40;43;21 - 00;40;47;01

And that's but now with a strong infrastructure,

00;40;47;08 - 00;40;51;24

you can do it by money, which is at $11,000 this season.

00;40;51;24 - 00;40;55;22

$15,000 next year is is a pretty high barrier

00;40;55;22 - 00;40;58;22

to go into it. Or you can do it by complete lottery.

00;40;58;28 - 00;41;03;06

So just randomize numbers and your number is there.

00;41;03;09 - 00;41;05;13

You have both mentioned that

00;41;05;13 - 00;41;09;02

you both want to do something about this.

00;41;09;04 - 00;41;13;04

What would you like your legacy

00;41;13;04 - 00;41;16;14

to be in terms of environmentalism?

00;41;16;16 - 00;41;21;13

Yeah, raising awareness and understanding and sharing the knowledge.

00;41;21;13 - 00;41;23;28

So yeah, it's difficult to

00;41;23;28 - 00;41;27;20

you know, being as a person, I am, being born into white privilege,

00;41;27;20 - 00;41;32;13

I was introduced to climbing by my parents and so I got a head start

00;41;32;13 - 00;41;36;03

and I've been able to live a life of leisure climbing mountains.

00;41;36;03 - 00;41;42;17

But raising awareness and bringing the conversation

00;41;42;17 - 00;41;49;15

to the people that have power and hopefully holding them accountable.

00;41;49;18 - 00;41;53;14

But it's also the I don't know, I don't

00;41;53;17 - 00;41;55;28

I don't wake up in the morning thinking about my legacy.

00;41;55;28 - 00;41;58;20

I wake up in the morning and

00;41;58;22 - 00;42;01;23

hold on because life has taken off.

00;42;01;23 - 00;42;04;26

Every day's a new adventure.

00;42;04;26 - 00;42;08;19

But one thing, if I may, to comment

00;42;08;19 - 00;42;11;24

in the process of wrapping this up,

00;42;11;25 - 00;42;15;08

for Dawa Steven and his family, he mentioned that there were 19 generations

00;42;15;10 - 00;42;19;05

that were there since they immigrated over from Tibet

00;42;19;10 - 00;42;22;05

and 

00;42;22;05 - 00;42;26;13

it’s only been 73 years since 1951

00;42;26;16 - 00;42;29;01

when the first Western expedition came into the Khumbu.

00;42;29;01 - 00;42;30;23

And that's three generations.

00;42;30;23 - 00;42;35;16

And to see from subsistence,

00;42;35;16 - 00;42;41;12

agriculture, and to see that amount of change in three generations

00;42;41;14 - 00;42;45;21

is remarkable and is very fast

00;42;45;24 - 00;42;48;23

when we think about things.

00;42;48;23 - 00;42;50;12

So it's all happening very quickly.

00;42;50;12 - 00;42;54;23

And does that also give us hope that we can

00;42;54;25 - 00;42;58;07

turn things around very quickly as well?

00;42;58;10 - 00;43;00;04

Turning around global CO2

00;43;00;04 - 00;43;03;05

levels isn't going to happen quickly.

00;43;03;05 - 00;43;05;08

I mean, we have really got to work on it.

00;43;05;08 - 00;43;11;16

We’re at this point in human civilization where we know

00;43;11;16 - 00;43;15;21

what's happening to the atmosphere, this blanket of CO2 and methane

00;43;15;21 - 00;43;19;00

that we're putting out there as a result of human activity,

00;43;19;00 - 00;43;25;02

and we're seeing the fastest warming in the last million years, or as best

00;43;25;02 - 00;43;30;07

we can scientifically ascertain, in a short period of time.

00;43;30;12 - 00;43;34;27

And the rate it's going now, within 100 years

00;43;34;27 - 00;43;38;04

the Himalaya could be

00;43;38;07 - 00;43;41;13

completely ice free unless we can adhere to

00;43;41;13 - 00;43;44;22

the global warming targets that we have.

00;43;44;22 - 00;43;48;17

And collectively as a humanity,

00;43;48;19 - 00;43;52;16

I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but it's pretty serious.

00;43;52;16 - 00;43;56;06

I mean, climate change is, Nepal is a consequence nation.

00;43;56;06 - 00;44;02;11

They're taking the consequences of a high per capita

00;44;02;13 - 00;44;06;05

fossil fuel consumption, which is myself and the United States,

00;44;06;05 - 00;44;09;29

and they suffer the consequences.

00;44;10;02 - 00;44;12;26

Yet your nation isn't

00;44;12;26 - 00;44;15;18

isn't responsible for the amount of consequences

00;44;15;18 - 00;44;17;20

you will see. from my side,

00;44;17;20 - 00;44;21;06

From my side,

00;44;21;06 - 00;44;23;19

coming back to what I said in the beginning, you know, in the

00;44;23;19 - 00;44;26;19

in the short term, there's not much we can do about the mountains

00;44;26;22 - 00;44;28;09

about the melting.

00;44;28;09 - 00;44;30;21

Doesn't mean that we shouldn't,

00;44;30;24 - 00;44;34;03

because in the long term, something will change.

00;44;34;03 - 00;44;35;11

It'll have to change.

00;44;35;11 - 00;44;38;12

But at this time myself,

00;44;38;12 - 00;44;43;02

I'm focused more on helping the local people, helping the Sherpa people

00;44;43;02 - 00;44;47;16

from the Khumbu Valley specifically in addressing all these problems.

00;44;47;16 - 00;44;51;02

So from garbage, from climate change.

00;44;51;02 - 00;44;55;11

So another project that we've also done

00;44;55;11 - 00;44;59;02

successfully is to build the flood barriers at Pheriche,

00;44;59;04 - 00;45;01;15

which is directly below the Khumbu glacier.

00;45;01;15 - 00;45;07;01

So Bally Peak Outlook and myself, we implemented that project with the local

00;45;07;01 - 00;45;11;22

municipality, with the local government, and we plan to do many more.

00;45;11;22 - 00;45;16;08

And so addressing any problems that the local municipality

00;45;16;08 - 00;45;20;03

might have flagged up, you know, we'll see how we can get involved

00;45;20;03 - 00;45;21;06

and do that.

00;45;21;06 - 00;45;25;19

And so in the short term, it's more about saving lives

00;45;25;19 - 00;45;28;13

and livelihoods for me, because the problem's already here.

00;45;28;13 - 00;45;33;06

But having said that, you know,

00;45;33;09 - 00;45;38;16

the root of the problem is climate change, which requires a long-term approach.

00;45;38;28 - 00;45;42;02

And as I mentioned earlier, we've been here for 19 generations.

00;45;42;02 - 00;45;47;15

My family has been in the Everest region now for 19 generations. 

00;45;47;15 - 00;45;53;06

I’m just part of that legacy.

00;45;53;08 - 00;45;56;16

And, you know, my great grandfather

00;45;56;16 - 00;46;00;22

was the first Bembhuv,

00;46;00;24 - 00;46;02;06

the first leader of the

00;46;02;06 - 00;46;06;16

Everest region officially recognized by the the Nepal government.

00;46;06;19 - 00;46;08;29

That was my great grandfather,

00;46;08;29 - 00;46;12;19

my grandfather was called the protector of the Sherpa heritage

00;46;12;19 - 00;46;15;18

by the abbot of the Tengboche monastery.

00;46;15;20 - 00;46;17;24

My dad was one of the first people to get 

00;46;17;24 - 00;46;22;02

a Western education and he did a lot of things

00;46;22;02 - 00;46;26;03

in mountaineering, in steering mountaineering policy in Nepal,

00;46;26;03 - 00;46;29;11

and I hope to continue with that legacy going forward.

00;46;29;14 - 00;46;32;16

And I think my call is in

00;46;32;16 - 00;46;36;07

addressing the issues of climate change and making

00;46;36;07 - 00;46;39;29

sure my people are going to be safe in the future.

00;46;39;29 - 00;46;44;04

Addressing climate change.

00;46;44;06 - 00;46;44;19

Well, I'm

00;46;44;19 - 00;46;47;23

sure not only in Nepal Dawa, but everywhere

00;46;47;23 - 00;46;51;03

in the world, there will be alpinists who will be inspired.

00;46;51;08 - 00;46;53;15

Thank you so much for our conversation today.

00;46;53;15 - 00;46;57;29

There is much more to say about environmental protection

00;46;57;29 - 00;47;01;28

and what's happening on Everest is affecting the rest of the world,

00;47;01;28 - 00;47;03;06

as you both mentioned,

00;47;03;06 - 00;47;05;07

and that's something we'll keep covering

00;47;05;07 - 00;47;08;22

and we'll cover more in depth in future episodes.

00;47;08;25 - 00;47;12;20

I'd like to thank for now our great production team.

00;47;12;20 - 00;47;16;25

On Thin Ice has original music by Nadir Cassim, our script editor and editorial advisor

00;47;16;25 - 00;47;18;06

is Dave Vetter,

00;47;18;06 - 00;47;22;01

and thanks, as always to the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation

00;47;22;01 - 00;47;23;23

for supporting this podcast.

00;47;23;23 - 00;47;28;21

The Foundation, as you explained, Dawa, aims to defend mountains in Nepal

00;47;28;21 - 00;47;32;13

and around the world from the impacts of climate change and excessive tourism.

00;47;32;16 - 00;47;33;15

Check out their website.

00;47;33;15 - 00;47;38;25

That's ballypeakoutlook.org.

00;47;38;25 - 00;47;42;21

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