On Thin Ice
On Thin Ice is the podcast that tackles the contradictions of the climate debate, bringing together influential guests and innovators to explore solutions that can help us build a more sustainable economy and lifestyle–right now.
On Thin Ice
How AI and Satellites Can Help Us Skate On Thin Ice
Artificial intelligence, quantum computing and satellites have the potential to exponentially improve our capability to monitor and predict the impacts of climate change on our environment.
As floods and natural disasters hit Nepal and other countries this summer, in this episode of the On Thin Ice podcast we look at how new technologies and other proven methods can help stay safe in the mountains and in the great outdoors.
Host Paolo Bosonin speaks with Laura Kottlowski, professional ice skater and influencer with tens of millions of viewers on TikTok and Instagram, and Tenzing Chogyal Sherpa, glaciologist at ICIMOD.
Laura Kottlowski shares her insights from years of studying frozen lakes around the world, and explains how her discipline is having to adapt to the loss of ice around the world, where many natural ice rinks are quickly disappearing.
Tenzing Chogyal Sherpa, who has been closely watching the evolution of glaciers around Mount Everest and other parts of the Himalayas, breaks down some of the dangers faced by local populations: with melting glaciers, there are more and more lakes that could outburst and cause massive damage to villages and people living downstream.
But Tenzing, Laura and other scientists say artificial intelligence and machine learning can scale up their ability to process satellite images and other data, allowing for a better understanding of the consequences of higher temperatures on our world’s ice - and on the communities whose lives depend on it.
So can AI help us mitigate the risks brought by climate change? Listen to On Thin Ice, produced in partnership with the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation.
Head to https://www.ballypeakoutlook.org/ to learn more about the foundation, which is on a mission to safeguard the world's fragile mountain habitats from the adverse effects of global warming and excessive tourism.
LINKS:
https://www.ballypeakoutlook.org/
https://www.instagram.com/laurakottlowski/?hl=en
https://www.tiktok.com/@laura.kottlowski?lang=en
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/group/ai-for-good-research-lab/ai-for-good-book/
PRODUCTION CREDITS:
Production: Iceworm Media
Editorial advisor: David Vetter
Video Editor: Canyon James
Original Music: Nadir Cassim
TAGS:
AI, Artifical Intelligence, Satellites, Climate Change, AI for Good, science, alpinism, climbing, glaciologist, Sherpa, Namche Bazar, Thame, Lobuche, Quantum computing, climate change, Everest, Floods, disasters, Nepal, Colorado, Ice Skating, TikTok, Instgram, Influencer, Safety, Ice, Thin Ice, Natural Rinks
Would you like to suggest guests and projects that we should cover? Do you have feedback or questions? Email paolo@iceworm.media
00;00;10;20 - 00;00;22;10
Paolo
This clip was watched more than 10 million times on TikTok. We can see an ice skater gliding on the surface of a lake and assessing the quality of the ice.
00;00;22;19 - 00;00;34;01
Paolo
It's a problem ice skaters are facing more and more often these days. As temperatures get warmer, there is less and less ice to skate on.
00;00;34;03 - 00;00;43;07
Paolo
The ice skater in those videos is our guest today, Laura Kottlowski. She's joined by another ice expert, Tenzing Sherpa, who is a glaciologist.
00;00;43;20 - 00;00;51;05
Paolo
So the first question I want to ask them is should we prepare to live in a world without ice?
00;00;51;23 - 00;00;55;17
Laura
Yes. And we're already starting to see some of the effects around the world.
00;00;57;24 - 00;01;00;21
Tenzing
Yes. From my side as well.
00;01;00;21 - 00;01;22;07
Paolo
Now, these are not just your personal observations. You are both using new technologies to conduct serious research out there. And that's the question we want to try to crack today. Do you think things like satellites, quantum computing and artificial intelligence can help us avoid that worst case climate scenario?
00;01;22;21 - 00;01;24;11
Laura
Yes.
00;01;24;11 - 00;01;25;14
Tenzing
Yes. Of course.
00;01;25;14 - 00;01;30;24
Tenzing
data is the new currency, and as much as information that we can get during the decision
00;01;30;24 - 00;01;34;28
Tenzing
making process and pre and post disasters scenarios,
00;01;34;28 - 00;01;36;25
Tenzing
it's very, very essential. And these
00;01;36;25 - 00;01;44;22
Tenzing
advancements in satellite technology, quantum computing, artificial intelligence is extremely important in the years to come.
00;01;44;22 - 00;01;45;26
Paolo
So there is hope.
00;01;52;15 - 00;02;18;13
Paolo
Welcome. This is On Thin Ice, a podcast by Ice World Media in partnership with the Bally Peak Outlook Foundation. We bring together athletes, researchers and innovators to look at what can actually be done right now to accelerate the transition to a more sustainable way of living. I'm your host, Paolo Bosonin in and before we start, I'd like to tell you a little more about our exceptional guests for this episode.
00;02;18;15 - 00;02;23;03
Paolo
In fact, I can't think of two guests who would be more fitting for our podcast
00;02;23;03 - 00;02;46;12
Paolo
Because they both live on thin ice. Literally. Laura Kottlowski is a professional ice skater instructor and social media personality based in Golden, Colorado. With her blades, she leaves marks on the surface of the ice, carving out these beautiful designs and inspiring tens of millions of viewers on social media.
00;02;46;15 - 00;02;56;13
Paolo
She's also a researcher, a historian, a creative designer and ice safety instructor, and so many other things. We're delighted to have you on the podcast, Laura.
00;02;56;29 - 00;02;58;03
Laura
Thanks for having me.
00;02;58;03 - 00;03;06;13
Paolo
This might be a silly question, but, what does an ice skater do during summer?
00;03;06;13 - 00;03;13;19
Laura
Well, recover from the winter first. I run my winters, pretty swiftly.
00;03;13;19 - 00;03;20;18
Laura
I'm really focused on chasing as much ice as possible and making as many observations about wild ice as possible.
00;03;20;18 - 00;03;25;20
Laura
so for summer, I'm just kind of, like, catching up on life. But I'm also, a skating instructor, so
00;03;25;20 - 00;03;34;14
Laura
I'm still at the rink and still skating, and it's still, a part of my day to day life. But for the most part, I, I go back to my other career, which is design and,
00;03;34;14 - 00;03;35;08
Laura
motion design.
00;03;35;08 - 00;03;45;15
Laura
So I, I spend a lot of that during the summer as well as I'm still in the water, I'm taking my paddleboard out and boating a lot, still exploring lakes just in a different way.
00;03;45;16 - 00;03;49;21
Paolo
So I feel like summer might be the perfect time to catch you for this podcast. Because,
00;03;49;21 - 00;03;55;12
Paolo
you may have a little more downtime than usual. Although it sounds like you're extremely busy, and,
00;03;55;12 - 00;04;00;07
Paolo
if you want it to skate on ice, perhaps you might be able to find,
00;04;00;07 - 00;04;06;16
Paolo
some ice where your guest is right now because he's joining us from Kathmandu, Nepal.
00;04;06;18 - 00;04;37;28
Paolo
Tenzing Chogyal Sherpa is a glaciologist at a prestigious institution called ICIMOD in Nepal. Tenzing has spent the last several years studying glaciers in the Himalayas. Among his coolest projects. He's been, on a National Geographic expedition to place new weather stations on Mount Everest. He recently co-wrote a paper about how satellites and artificial intelligence can be used to monitor glacial lakes and help protect the local populations from catastrophic events.
00;04;38;01 - 00;04;42;03
Paolo
It's always great to see you, Tenzing. How's the monsoon season in Nepal this year?
00;04;43;16 - 00;04;46;26
Tenzing
I've got two words for that. Hot and wet.
00;04;47;19 - 00;04;57;23
Tenzing
in fact, is getting too hot. And too wet. I think with climate change, too, is the word that it will be less and you'll be hearing more and more. It's going to get too wet, too hot, too dry, too cold.
00;04;57;23 - 00;05;00;25
Tenzing
So that's basically what's happening in the monsoon right now.
00;05;00;26 - 00;05;04;03
Tenzing
The monsoon is getting very, very intense and it's being felt
00;05;04;03 - 00;05;10;08
Tenzing
all around the country. We've got landslides. We've got floods. So many disasters happening at the same time.
00;05;10;08 - 00;05;13;14
Tenzing
but fortunately, I think it's during this intense,
00;05;13;14 - 00;05;22;26
Tenzing
warmth that we get during the summer. We also have rainfall. So sometimes, you know, more city life. You are much more secluded from the natural environment.
00;05;22;26 - 00;05;28;15
Tenzing
you sort of get some relief from the hotness. But having said that, you go outside the city area
00;05;28;15 - 00;05;30;29
Tenzing
the monsoon is bringing a lot of disasters.
00;05;32;17 - 00;05;39;04
Paolo
Is there any ice left on the glaciers? And up high in the mountains?
00;05;39;21 - 00;05;41;19
Tenzing
Yes. There's a lot of ice still left,
00;05;41;19 - 00;05;44;26
Tenzing
in the high mountains, especially in this in the Hindu Kush Himalayan region.
00;05;44;26 - 00;05;47;23
Tenzing
it's diminishing and it's melting as we speak.
00;05;48;08 - 00;05;53;16
Tenzing
But, besides the two poles, the largest amount of ice that's still left.
00;05;53;16 - 00;05;56;27
Tenzing
is in the in theHindu Kush, Himalayan region, which is also why it's called
00;05;56;27 - 00;05;58;05
Tenzing
the water towers of the world.
00;05;59;14 - 00;06;04;26
Paolo
So, have you ever thought about ice skating there in, summer? Laura?
00;06;06;15 - 00;06;16;17
Laura
Well, I was going to ask Tenzing if he knows if it gets cold enough to have some of these lakes freezing at night, or if the lakes, you know, remain wet and open.
00;06;17;03 - 00;06;33;05
Tenzing
I would not think that the lakes would be, frozen during the summer time. Especially if you want to go there and skate. You would need a consistent layer or a certain layer of thickness so that you don't of cave into the lake. So I think summer would not be ideal.
00;06;33;29 - 00;06;45;04
Laura
yeah, I think I was thinking more like, you know, on the side of Everest or, you know, one of those higher, higher locations. So, like, you know, 20,000ft above the.
00;06;45;28 - 00;06;47;19
Tenzing
I think if you go higher up,
00;06;47;19 - 00;06;48;21
Tenzing
I would not think there
00;06;48;21 - 00;06;50;12
Tenzing
would be larger lakes
00;06;50;16 - 00;06;53;16
Laura
Know they'd be like small ones. Yeah.
00;06;53;16 - 00;07;00;09
Tenzing
But even those will be too shallow to actually cause any sort of, freezing specifically during this,
00;07;00;09 - 00;07;02;04
Tenzing
summertime, during the winter, I think
00;07;02;04 - 00;07;07;28
Laura
you've been to Gokyo lake. So I think that they also you will find very nice places to skate.
00;07;07;28 - 00;07;18;16
Paolo
So it sounds like you may have to wait until the next winter. Laura. In the meantime, let's dive into our main question today.
00;07;18;18 - 00;07;38;00
Paolo
We have all heard of things like artificial intelligence and cutting edge satellite technology. What you may not know is that scientists are increasingly using these technology to save lives, where at least that's something I didn't know to understand how it works, I wanted to
00;07;38;00 - 00;07;50;04
Paolo
invite Tenzing and Laura to look into glaciers, mountain lakes, and what these technological tools can tell us about what's happening in these places.
00;07;50;21 - 00;08;17;23
Paolo
As glaciers and ice around the world melt, this creates a range of very real dangers. It can be the ice breaking underneath the individual ice skater, or in the most tragic cases, lakes are bursting and destroying entire villages and entire communities. Just to give you a number, deaths from these events are estimated at 12,000. In a 2024 study.
00;08;17;25 - 00;08;46;11
Paolo
And this is something dancing that you included in one of your papers recently. I thought it was a pretty staggering number because we always think about climate change as a hypothetical threat. But actually there are thousands of deaths already that can be linked directly to this kind of dynamic and new climate trends. So Laura and Tenzing, you've both been researching different risks related to melting ice.
00;08;46;13 - 00;09;02;01
Paolo
Can you tell us more about your work and can you can you help us understand better? What are these effects of rising temperatures that you've seen, that you're observing right now? Laura, do you want to go first?
00;09;02;01 - 00;09;07;16
Laura
I think for me personally, I. I'm very interested in the safety side of what I do.
00;09;07;16 - 00;09;12;19
Laura
skating on a wild ice. I've come to know that the smoother the ice.
00;09;12;19 - 00;09;17;18
Laura
the easiest to skate on. But it's also, it tends to be the thinner ice. It tends to be the fresher ice.
00;09;17;20 - 00;09;20;20
Laura
So I'm trying to understand ice construction,
00;09;20;20 - 00;09;23;03
Laura
from its inception to its degradation.
00;09;23;03 - 00;09;26;05
Laura
And so what I'm seeing lately,
00;09;26;05 - 00;09;27;27
Laura
is just the erratic weather.
00;09;27;27 - 00;09;33;01
Laura
the lakes could be freezing at night and it could be, you know, I'm talking in Fahrenheit here, but in the teens and Fahrenheit,
00;09;33;01 - 00;09;39;19
Laura
at night, which is normally a good sign for people to see those temperatures and be like, yeah, there's stuff freezing tonight.
00;09;39;21 - 00;09;55;28
Laura
But then the sun, you know, cranks up to like, you know, 40 degrees or 50 degrees during the day. So they just do extreme weather fluctuations which weather the ice at a rapid rate. And back before I was studying, ice construction pretty heavily.
00;09;55;28 - 00;10;01;19
Laura
I didn't know the full lifecycle of what ice look like from its inception to its end.
00;10;01;19 - 00;10;15;02
Laura
And more specifically, the end. I knew what it was looking like from the beginning, but, the signs, for me weren't there, and it was a lack of communication. I think in the world of ice skating world, where,
00;10;15;02 - 00;10;20;12
Laura
for me, I've been doing this for 14 years, and I didn't know to look for those signs.
00;10;20;14 - 00;10;27;21
Laura
so now having experienced that and knowing what the full life cycle is and what the ice does on, its like last leg,
00;10;27;21 - 00;10;31;26
Laura
you know, I'm, I'm continuing to research that more and understand the life cycle more.
00;10;31;26 - 00;10;40;07
Laura
so for me, it's, assessing and being able to read the ice as I'm skating and educate others on on that.
00;10;40;15 - 00;10;51;12
Paolo
Tenzing. You've also been monitoring lakes, but primarily the ones that have been created by melting glaciers. And what did you find out? In a nutshell?
00;10;51;12 - 00;11;07;24
Tenzing
Yeah. With the change in climate and the warming temperatures, the glaciers are melting, and they're melting quite rapidly. In fact, in the recent decades, they're melting 65% faster than in the previous decades. That's based on a study from ICIMOD in 2020
00;11;07;24 - 00;11;12;28
Tenzing
Now, what this does is all of that meltwater has started to accumulate to form glacial lakes.
00;11;13;00 - 00;11;23;03
Tenzing
And these glacial lakes, they've been forming all over the Hindu Kush Himalayan region. And, they have the tendency to outburst because they're dammed by the moraine of the glaciers.
00;11;23;03 - 00;11;27;25
Tenzing
In fact, about more than 600 glacial lake outburst floods have happened since the 1800.
00;11;27;25 - 00;11;28;21
Tenzing
and they've cost
00;11;28;21 - 00;11;33;24
Tenzing
a lot of devastating damages, in case of human and infrastructure damages.
00;11;33;26 - 00;11;44;28
Tenzing
So these are one of the most prominent hazards in the region. And that is also why it is very essential to understand how these lakes are changing, what is being done, and how do we,
00;11;44;28 - 00;11;49;19
Tenzing
try to mitigate the hazards that can come from specifically these kind of risks?
00;11;49;25 - 00;11;57;27
Paolo
So there are dozens of lakes that you sort of, identified as being dangerous, right?
00;11;57;27 - 00;12;11;12
Tenzing
so basically, imagine that you have a dam that that is just upstream of, where you live. And then, besides those dams surrounding those dam, you got big rocks, chunks of rocks and ice just all around it.
00;12;11;12 - 00;12;21;10
Tenzing
if those rocks or those ice fall into that lake, and it will cause a big wave and that will actually outburst the dam, and it'll all of that water will start to
00;12;21;10 - 00;12;23;18
Tenzing
come down and that could cause a devastating flood.
00;12;23;19 - 00;12;32;08
Tenzing
So it's as simple as that. That water could outflow come downstream and actually wipe out all of the people and all of the infrastructure that's laying in the path.
00;12;32;08 - 00;12;37;16
Tenzing
So that's exactly what's happening in the, Hindu Kush Himalayan region, in recent in Nepal and in many places.
00;12;37;18 - 00;13;01;27
Tenzing
And that has happened a lot, I’m not stating it as an example, especially like just if you look at the Everest region in 1985, there was a big, glacial lake outburst flood that wiped away a newly constructed hydropower, and it took many bridges and everything. But it just gives you the scale of the damages. We recently had glacial lake outburst floods in Sikkim, and we recently had glacial lake outburst floods in Pakistan.
00;13;01;27 - 00;13;02;16
Tenzing
So it's happening
00;13;02;16 - 00;13;18;06
Tenzing
all over this particular region. And it's just showing that these kind of risks, these kind of dangers are getting more and more. And with the changing climate, these kind of lakes and these kind of hazards will be, maybe increased by three fold. So that's what reports say.
00;13;19;05 - 00;13;28;28
Laura
And I think to add on to that, he's talking kind of a at a major scale, but, I had the first opportunity to skate in Nepal and up in the Khumbu region, and,
00;13;28;28 - 00;13;37;08
Laura
even just chatting with locals when I was there, just the shrinking of the glaciers is causing the moraine walls to collapse. And so it's affecting buildings,
00;13;37;08 - 00;13;39;16
Laura
on the backside of those moraine walls.
00;13;39;19 - 00;13;46;03
Laura
And so that's, you know, on a smaller scale, but that's still pretty drastic for the locals that live there. And, you know,
00;13;46;03 - 00;13;53;07
Laura
the slow landslides that are occurring over time as ice is melting from the higher regions and coming down to the lower regions.
00;13;54;09 - 00;14;03;08
Paolo
And it's pretty scary. of course, when you see how the valley is effectively a funnel. Right? So anything that comes down,
00;14;03;08 - 00;14;04;25
Paolo
is going to have a pretty devastating
00;14;05;02 - 00;14;24;18
Paolo
effect because there's nowhere else to go. It can only go to the villages, and you can only go to where the people are. So the Valley Peak Foundation, which is our partner on this podcast, just recently funded the construction of a new flood barrier in the Khumbu Valley precisely to counter these risks.
00;14;24;18 - 00;14;34;16
Paolo
Tenzing, you know the valley very well. Do you think more of those projects are needed or those projects can help, you know, hedge the risks a little bit?
00;14;34;26 - 00;14;39;15
Tenzing
I think those kind of barriers are what is needed initially, because,
00;14;39;15 - 00;14;41;07
Tenzing
these kind of hazards will happen.
00;14;41;07 - 00;14;45;04
Tenzing
So trying to minimize the amount of risk that these kind of hazard pose
00;14;45;04 - 00;14;48;03
Tenzing
putting up these kind of barriers, putting up cabin walls
00;14;48;03 - 00;14;58;27
Tenzing
that's the first step that we need to do. After that, we need to look at the problem itself, maybe in case of Imsa lake. And, there has been, some sort of, mitigation measures with,
00;14;58;27 - 00;15;01;24
Tenzing
they tried to make the outlet a little bit larger.
00;15;01;24 - 00;15;03;07
Tenzing
They put concrete dam
00;15;03;07 - 00;15;03;15
Tenzing
and
00;15;03;15 - 00;15;23;25
Tenzing
they lowered the lake level as well. At the same time, they put similar sort of barriers, similar sort of given walls on the downstream, so that even if there is a flood or overflow, hopefully it tries to minimize the risk. So that's what we are doing at the end of the day, because the climate change, the cause of climate change is global, you can't do anything at a local scale.
00;15;24;02 - 00;15;30;26
Tenzing
But trying to minimize this kind of risk, trying to mitigate this kind of risk at a local scale is what we can do at the moment.
00;15;30;26 - 00;15;52;13
Paolo
And just for context, for our listeners and viewers, the Ingia lake is a particularly threatening lake that has been forming. just under Everest, effectively just under Lotze and, one that has been worrying scientists and, locals is that right, Tenzing?
00;15;52;22 - 00;15;54;05
Tenzing
Yeah. So the lake
00;15;54;05 - 00;16;11;01
Tenzing
gives a good example of research to Action, and the, the lake was a lake that was being monitored, in the early 2000 because it was a lake that was growing very fast through satellite images. We came to know that the lake was growing at an exponential rate. So then people started to look that it's a very dangerous lake.
00;16;11;01 - 00;16;13;05
Tenzing
It's growing quite rapidly. And there was,
00;16;13;05 - 00;16;15;06
Tenzing
detailed investigations done,
00;16;15;06 - 00;16;22;26
Tenzing
And then they deemed that the lake was quite dangerous. So then with enough momentum with enough research papers, with enough sort of, media,
00;16;22;26 - 00;16;27;10
Tenzing
momentum that was being created that made space for funding to come,
00;16;27;10 - 00;16;29;11
Tenzing
to that reason, because Nepal, in itself
00;16;29;11 - 00;16;34;07
Tenzing
we have this limitation of funds, we have this limitation of manpower.
00;16;34;10 - 00;16;45;15
Tenzing
And the government itself is already so stressed out that we are forced to fight between poverty and climate change. So it's a very difficult thing. And that's where these kind of research papers, these kind of media,
00;16;45;15 - 00;16;50;20
Tenzing
voices creates all of these ones. And that's where the in the lake mitigation projects happen.
00;16;50;23 - 00;16;53;07
Tenzing
And in, in one way, it's sort of,
00;16;53;07 - 00;17;07;03
Tenzing
reduced the risk that the lake (name of lake( can have towards the downstream community. So at the end of the day, the downstream community is now sleeping a bit better, sleeping much better than before. That there is something has been done there has been something done up there.
00;17;07;06 - 00;17;09;08
Tenzing
So it also gives hope to the people that
00;17;09;08 - 00;17;13;27
Tenzing
There is some solution there. There is some way that we can do something.
00;17;14;22 - 00;17;23;24
Paolo
I mean, one major challenge, on top of those that you just mentioned, of course, is that this work, like monitoring these lakes and studying them,
00;17;23;24 - 00;17;37;06
Paolo
is all pretty much done manually, right? Even to this day. And, this is something you both know very well because you've both, for example, been using satellites and images from satellites
00;17;37;06 - 00;17;38;14
Paolo
to study lakes.
00;17;38;14 - 00;17;54;06
Paolo
But do you want to tell us a little more about how laborious that process is? Still to this day, and why it takes so long, and why it has such limited potential of actually being scaled up.
00;17;54;06 - 00;18;01;24
Paolo
and like, translating into more consequential action. Laura, do you want to start?
00;18;01;24 - 00;18;07;18
Laura
I think for me, I've been monitoring the freezing, and,
00;18;07;18 - 00;18;15;10
Laura
I know time frames of the lake for the past 16 years and more intensely in the past, maybe 5 to 7 years.
00;18;15;10 - 00;18;22;06
Laura
you know, I'm seeing stuff on the ground firsthand, and I've been logging information manually, like, actually physically hiking there.
00;18;22;06 - 00;18;28;03
Laura
So, like, some of these hikes are 12 mile hikes. And, to catch it when it first class freezes.
00;18;28;03 - 00;18;35;09
Laura
so prior to satellite data, it was just going there and, and trying to be there when it happens and looking at weather patterns
00;18;35;09 - 00;18;37;00
Laura
and just making sure that,
00;18;37;00 - 00;18;39;17
Laura
it's been below freezing for this amount of days.
00;18;39;17 - 00;18;44;29
Laura
and it's been clear whether it hasn't been cloudy weather and, and, analyzing that kind of stuff. And then,
00;18;44;29 - 00;18;51;09
Laura
it's been frustrating going up there after our 12 mile hike in there being, you know, water still there.
00;18;51;09 - 00;18;54;04
Laura
but now with the rise of satellites, I've been able to,
00;18;54;04 - 00;18;57;12
Laura
see the imagery and then see what I'm seeing on the ground there and understand.
00;18;57;12 - 00;18;59;03
Laura
Okay, now, when I'm looking at this
00;18;59;03 - 00;19;04;03
Laura
I know what to look for in regards to what the lake edges look like when they freeze.
00;19;04;03 - 00;19;19;15
Laura
when they're super thick, there's cracks that form and you can see the line work of the cracks. and usually that's above six inches or more. And so for me, it's, it's this merriment of like handwork over the years,
00;19;19;15 - 00;19;30;19
Laura
mixed with now I'm going on to websites and also looking, you know, kind of manually all of the time like and then sometimes those images are there because clouds get in the way of the satellite images.
00;19;30;19 - 00;19;37;19
Laura
And so then there could be like a month goes by where you can't monitor a specific lake because it's been cloudy the whole month.
00;19;37;19 - 00;19;40;06
Laura
granted, you know, different regions of the world,
00;19;40;06 - 00;19;51;00
Laura
have that type of weather. Like, I'm fortunate here in Colorado where we have like 300 days of sun. So the majority of the satellite images, like I have probably more than other places in the world to grab that data from.
00;19;51;00 - 00;19;56;15
Laura
But, yeah, it's it's definitely very laborious. And, you know, for me,
00;19;56;15 - 00;20;06;10
Laura
it's seeing what's out there and what the ice is doing and, and, and all of that. So, I'm excited to see what Tenzing and how has, how it affects his research.
00;20;06;19 - 00;20;07;12
Paolo
Well,
00;20;07;12 - 00;20;13;14
Paolo
Tenzing I see you're not. You were nodding while Laura was mentioning all those challenges that that's unfamiliar to you.
00;20;13;25 - 00;20;34;14
Tenzing
Yeah. Of course I'll. I'll start my answer with, like, So if you're mapping or mapping one, like. So I'll talk about mapping because mapping is the first thing you do before you go for any survey, map out the lake where the lake is. So mapping one lake is fine. Still, I still recommend doing it manually because then you can select the images, you can select best images.
00;20;34;14 - 00;20;35;15
Tenzing
You can actually,
00;20;35;15 - 00;20;45;18
Tenzing
delineate the lake. So but now increase it to two. That's also fine. Up to ten is also fine. But then you go to 100 and then 500, then the 1000.
00;20;45;18 - 00;20;47;22
Tenzing
in case of our studies, we look at
00;20;47;22 - 00;20;49;15
Tenzing
whole of Hindu Kush, Himalayan region.
00;20;49;18 - 00;21;04;18
Tenzing
There could be more than thousands of lake. Now imagine manually mapping all of those lake by yourself. So that's that's one thing that that is where AI comes in. But at the same time we also used to use remote sensing methods of image segmentation and other processes.
00;21;04;18 - 00;21;08;20
Tenzing
trying to process the image segment image so that you can map it. It's just a
00;21;08;20 - 00;21;10;08
Tenzing
process where you try to,
00;21;10;08 - 00;21;20;26
Tenzing
classify images, you classify, classify, the categories within the images so that you can map it. If it's a forest, if it's a lake, at least with, a glacier, something like that.
00;21;21;00 - 00;21;38;10
Tenzing
all of this process is very, very laborious. And one of the many challenges specifically, in mapping lakes in the, in the Hindu Kush Himalayan region is the seasonality that we have because we have a very strong monsoon here. And the impact of cloud here is, quite, quite a lot.
00;21;38;17 - 00;21;46;08
Tenzing
And during that time, if you have cloud over the lake, there is nothing you can do. You either look for another image or you use other methods like the
00;21;46;08 - 00;21;53;27
Tenzing
active remote sensing, that is. I would not go more into that, but I'll just say that clouds are a big problem. But the other problem is something that,
00;21;53;27 - 00;21;57;00
Tenzing
might not come to many people might these shadows.
00;21;57;03 - 00;22;09;10
Tenzing
We've we are in this region where we have the one of the tallest mountain ranges in the world. So they cast big shadows. And all of the satellite images that we are using are optical satellite images. So they're just taking pictures. Right?
00;22;09;10 - 00;22;14;08
Tenzing
So the way the lakes, are staying, some part of it may be covered by shadows.
00;22;14;08 - 00;22;34;09
Tenzing
Some part of it may be, in the sun. So it's difficult, you know, trying to label all of that. And that's where we, we try remote sensing methods. We try a lot of method. But when you have artificial intelligence, and within that is machine learning and deep learning methods, you can actually delineate maybe ten or maybe 100 of the lakes by yourself
00;22;34;09 - 00;22;35;25
Tenzing
then train, the machine
00;22;35;25 - 00;22;54;15
Tenzing
And that's, that's the beauty of machine learning that you provide the data yourself. And it actually, learns by itself. So, so the the thing about machine learning is that it's also it needs manual input as well. And that is okay, because at the end of the day, the the quality of data that you give to it is how it learn.
00;22;54;15 - 00;23;15;00
Paolo
So can you try to explain in plain and and accessible terms as much as possible. Because I know it can get very technical, very quickly. How is artificial intelligence helping and coming into all this? And, you know, what are the benefits and also what are the limitations of it?
00;23;15;27 - 00;23;33;12
Tenzing
So artificial intelligence comes at the point when things get too difficult for us, right? Mapping 1000 lakes. Mapping 2000 lakes for four decades is a difficult thing for a human being. And to analyze all of that information, to analyze all of that data, that's where, artificial intelligence comes in,
00;23;33;12 - 00;23;35;07
Tenzing
the beauty of it is you don't need,
00;23;35;07 - 00;23;37;18
Tenzing
lot of, processing from your site.
00;23;37;23 - 00;23;53;12
Tenzing
You just need to just, train it like, this is. This is what I want you to do. these are lakes. These are these are not lakes. These are glacier. These are this. So you give some sort of data to it, then it starts to learn by itself. And that's how you, map of the lakes.
00;23;53;12 - 00;24;08;23
Tenzing
and in a way, you sort of reduce the, the huge effort that goes into trying to create that data, create that information, and you can use your, your efforts elsewhere in trying to use that information for the people, for the downstream community.
00;24;08;23 - 00;24;24;19
Tenzing
look on the larger picture. So that's where I think AI helps a lot, because most of what we do is trying to create this data, trying to process this data. If that part is automated, if you can actually automated easily, then we like I said, we can look at a larger picture.
00;24;24;19 - 00;24;36;25
Laura
how much of it is, I think comparing satellite data to, If you can use AI to take multiple images, like, he was talking about shadows earlier, and I was laughing because I come across that problem all the time, too. But,
00;24;36;25 - 00;24;42;29
Laura
but you can toggle between different satellite imagery, and then maybe one image doesn't have the shadows and that one does.
00;24;42;29 - 00;24;46;08
Laura
So then it's also kind of mixing imagery together,
00;24;46;08 - 00;24;50;23
Laura
to come up with that. And yeah, that would that would be super helpful.
00;24;51;03 - 00;24;52;27
Paolo
And I think. Laura, that's something that,
00;24;52;27 - 00;25;00;26
Paolo
Tenzing you wrote about in your paper. Write about comparing images using, deep learning.
00;25;01;07 - 00;25;07;02
Tenzing
Yes. keep in mind, I'm not a machine learning expert, so I am just a coauthor of the paper.
00;25;07;02 - 00;25;09;24
Tenzing
but still, I can give you some insights on it,
00;25;09;24 - 00;25;20;15
Tenzing
we explored that option to look at different multiple, satellite images, look at multiple machine learning algorithms, look at deep learning algorithms. So all of those
00;25;20;15 - 00;25;21;22
Tenzing
have their own pros and cons.
00;25;21;22 - 00;25;29;20
Tenzing
All of those have their own, output. But at the end of the day, we we were looking for that particular optimal solution where we can get,
00;25;29;20 - 00;25;31;08
Tenzing
good and efficient results,
00;25;31;08 - 00;25;40;29
Tenzing
at an ideal processing time. but having said that, there is still the issue with clouds and shadows because it's still very difficult, even with,
00;25;40;29 - 00;25;46;19
Tenzing
better machine learning algorithms, it's still difficult because it's not as consistent as you would like.
00;25;46;19 - 00;26;05;07
Tenzing
And especially in many cases where you have clouds, the only option you have is mask out that reason and maybe look for another day when there is no cloud. That helps. If you're trying to map the lake for one time. Suppose you want to look for the changes in the lake. Maybe you want to look at a daily scale.
00;26;05;07 - 00;26;20;23
Tenzing
You want to look at a weekly scale, or you want to look at an annual scale. So if you have got consistent clouds over there, you may be introducing more error when you're trying to look at that change, because maybe you're not picking up the tedium that uses picking up error. So that's where all of that processing comes in.
00;26;20;23 - 00;26;36;07
Tenzing
and research in itself is a process where you update yourself, on and on. Again, you bring new methods, you explore those methods, you write a paper, it gives us some answers. You could look for other methods and that in that way we are updating. And that's how I think science is.
00;26;37;18 - 00;26;46;28
Paolo
And by the way, you should specify that this, fascinating paper you published is part of a book called AI for good. That,
00;26;46;28 - 00;26;54;19
Paolo
I would, invite everyone to, take a look at because it covers a lot of different areas of science.
00;26;54;19 - 00;26;58;14
Paolo
and it's an important reflection on how these new technologies could,
00;26;58;14 - 00;27;02;14
Paolo
or could not help science in in some cases.
00;27;02;16 - 00;27;30;17
Paolo
Laura, you have you told me an anecdote that I found fascinating because in your family, you're not the first person to use, satellites to be interested in weather patterns in the climate. So can you just tell us about your dad, who's also been sort of in, in this field and active in this field? And also, I'd be curious to know, like, what does he think about all this?
00;27;30;17 - 00;27;42;29
Paolo
I don't know if it's something you've discussed with him, but, you know, given how they were doing their jobs 30 years ago, what how does he feel about these new possibilities and these new technologies?
00;27;44;11 - 00;27;54;25
Laura
Yeah. So my dad, Dan Kottlowski, is a senior expert meteorologist at AccuWeather, and he's arguably one of the best hurricane forecasters in the world. And I might be biased in saying that, but,
00;27;55;07 - 00;28;04;29
Laura
He was one of the first 30 employees of AccuWeather. It was like a small house on a like, just off side the of the Penn State College campus in State College, Pennsylvania.
00;28;05;02 - 00;28;07;01
Laura
And, I remember,
00;28;07;01 - 00;28;26;16
Laura
going into his work for, like, take your data to work day and things like that, and they mapped everything by hand. So they were getting these like, reams and reams of paper with, with numbers and stuff that, that, that they would have to go back in and circle like the, the highs and the lows and create the arcs of the graphics that we see now that are done digitally.
00;28;26;19 - 00;28;28;05
Laura
they had to do all that manually.
00;28;28;05 - 00;28;48;22
Laura
and, you know, he's evolved over time. This is he's it as like mid 40th year doing this. he's kind of on the retiree's end of things now. So he's, he's morphing into more of a consultant for AccuWeather now. but he, he's a weather nerd. And so he's, he's been instrumental in opening my eyes to different,
00;28;48;22 - 00;28;57;05
Laura
weather platforms that gather different satellite, data to, that they're, that they use, specifically in-house at AccuWeather.
00;28;57;05 - 00;29;02;24
Laura
But then, all of the organizations have, the ability to access.
00;29;02;24 - 00;29;21;11
Laura
so I've been using some of those sites like, like Mesa West has one of the, the best data collection of, kind of remote weather stations or just, you know, weather stations around the US and Canada and some, some other countries as well. but that's a big site that I look at weather data from.
00;29;21;11 - 00;29;38;05
Laura
And, you know, he's been able to tell me what different weather patterns do over time and so he can give me the information of, like, this weather pattern is, you know, it's going to be cold in November, but then it's going to warm up in December and then it's going to get cold again in January. And this is the pattern that we're seeing right now.
00;29;38;05 - 00;29;47;23
Laura
And so, yeah, it's, being in a family of, you know, a meteorologist is definitely a benefit to what I do now. so.
00;29;47;23 - 00;29;50;13
Paolo
And what does he think about AI?
00;29;51;15 - 00;30;03;18
Laura
I don't think I've specifically talked to him about that, but I think that he would. I think he would be for it, in the ways that we're talking about it and making his job easier and, you know, making the data more accessible.
00;30;04;03 - 00;30;09;03
Paolo
Tenzing, Can you imagine working like that? Like they used to work back in the day?
00;30;10;20 - 00;30;31;05
Tenzing
Yeah. like I was just imagining, how did they would be drawing up all those maps? And, you know, we. It's also quite interesting because in my undergrad, we also used to trace out those maps. Look at the troughs, look at the low pressure, low pressure zones and high pressure zones. But at the time, I found it very interesting because I got something new.
00;30;31;05 - 00;30;38;21
Tenzing
I was learning something new, but then imagining doing that again and again, and for a large area, I think that would be very laborious.
00;30;38;21 - 00;30;53;15
Tenzing
in that way, slowly they developed that process. And now we've come so far ahead. And it's because how they did it that and during those times and yeah, I value those kind of, efforts very much because that's how information and data was created.
00;30;53;21 - 00;31;14;25
Tenzing
And the back side of like we we look at AccuWeather and we just know that we exist, get the weather forecast. But the backbone of what's going on to create all of that data, I think that I think represented that very nicely, because that's all of the effort that goes into trying to get that, weather forecast for you in the morning or to get the, better weather forecast, get.
00;31;16;01 - 00;31;31;09
Tenzing
It's not as easy as it looks. For sure. And as immediate as it looks when you just put it up on your phone. And you just get a nice number. A nice little icon, right? There's a whole lot of work behind that. And, you know, as technology evolves,
00;31;31;09 - 00;31;33;15
Paolo
every time that there are new technologies that come in.
00;31;33;15 - 00;31;39;21
Paolo
And I'm sure your dad, Laura, is also familiar with this, there are a lot of questions. There are a lot of fears. There are a lot of
00;31;39;21 - 00;31;43;18
Paolo
reflections around those technologies. And on AI,
00;31;43;18 - 00;31;51;11
Paolo
since we all care about the climate, the main kind of concern and, question that I've been asking myself is,
00;31;51;11 - 00;31;58;26
Paolo
we know that AI consumes a lot of energy, and as an industry, it has a pretty terrible carbon footprint.
00;31;58;26 - 00;32;10;08
Paolo
Right? So do you think in this case, the benefits outweigh the damage or. I don't know, how do you feel about that?
00;32;10;08 - 00;32;11;19
Paolo
It's a question for both of you.
00;32;13;06 - 00;32;13;27
Tenzing
I think that,
00;32;13;27 - 00;32;18;00
Tenzing
the benefits definitely outweigh the damage. I would not say the damage is,
00;32;18;00 - 00;32;21;17
Tenzing
Of course, it has its own carbon footprint, but
00;32;21;17 - 00;32;24;01
Tenzing
At the same time, the benefit that we get from,
00;32;24;01 - 00;32;29;18
Tenzing
the AI methods that we have is specifically very useful. Like I said before, to get that information,
00;32;29;18 - 00;32;37;23
Tenzing
there is so much hard work that goes into bringing data to process all of that data and to provide better information for good decision making.
00;32;37;27 - 00;32;49;22
Tenzing
And if you have automated all of that, if it's all of that effort is then sort of reduced due to AI, then you can actually use all of that if effort some somewhere. Maybe we could use that for somewhere to try to make
00;32;49;22 - 00;32;54;24
Tenzing
the consumption, the power of AI more efficiently. Maybe that could those effort could be, going there.
00;32;54;26 - 00;33;10;10
Tenzing
So in a way that could be a feedback loop that maybe at the moment it is very, it has a lot of carbon footprint. But in the long term, as we progress further and further with the help of AI, yeah, itself could try to maybe make it more itself more efficient. Right.
00;33;10;27 - 00;33;12;27
Laura
Yeah. And I think, this is
00;33;14;18 - 00;33;19;18
Laura
earlier, but what I'm seeing in the West over here is,
00;33;19;18 - 00;33;26;09
Laura
the lack of water. And so being able to see what lakes are drying up and what river systems are drying up,
00;33;26;09 - 00;33;29;14
Laura
through satellite data at a, at a global scale, I think is,
00;33;29;14 - 00;33;30;29
Laura
really, really helpful and useful.
00;33;30;29 - 00;33;31;21
Laura
And if
00;33;31;21 - 00;33;33;06
Laura
can aid in that,
00;33;33;06 - 00;33;43;08
Laura
I think that's going to be very eye opening for a lot of people. And I'm sure the people that that study river systems and, and that kind of thing are already looking at that stuff. But,
00;33;43;08 - 00;33;48;12
Laura
to be able to show that through imagery to the global public, I think it's going to be a really important.
00;33;48;12 - 00;33;56;08
Paolo
Okay, so we've been talking about technology. But of course technology is just one aspect of keeping people safe.
00;33;56;08 - 00;34;20;14
Paolo
Laura, this is a big part of your work, like safety. And in your videos you talk about best practices. So what are the things that can be done to keep people safe out there and understand what these changes, what a changing climate means for their everyday practices outdoors.
00;34;21;25 - 00;34;24;10
Laura
Yeah. For me, it's, education.
00;34;24;10 - 00;34;48;02
Laura
so, you know, I was I became a main rescuer in an accident a couple of years ago. And what happened to the ice that day was, you know, climate change in action. That was erratic weather patterns. It was extreme freezing in the extreme, thawing, from both the surface, like so, the sun reading down on the ice, but then also the underbelly.
00;34;48;02 - 00;34;57;06
Laura
Erosion from massive snow melt over the course of the weeks leading up to the accident that, I became the rescuer.
00;34;57;06 - 00;35;08;16
Laura
there were things that happened that day that I'd never seen before, even after doing this for over 14 years. And now I'm, I'm in my 16th year, and that was the only time that I've ever broken through.
00;35;08;16 - 00;35;19;21
Laura
It was was that day during that rescue, helping my friends out. And so for me, I got I kind of got angry at the world ice skating community for not sharing more information.
00;35;20;03 - 00;35;52;15
Laura
On a larger platform or just like getting that information out there, like a lot of ice safety information is, you know, in Sweden and Norway, but it's not really shared on a global scale or at a large scale. over here in the US. In the US, like, well, skating is still fairly new. so for me, I, you know, went straight to social media to share what I know as far as ice safety, and what I've learned over the course of those 14 years and even prior to that accident, I was sharing this information.
00;35;52;17 - 00;36;12;24
Laura
so I knew after the accident I was like, well, if I didn't know this stuff and I've been doing this for 14 years, how is anyone else going to know? and so I threw myself into, you know, the research of how ice forms and that's, that's completely a life cycle to live degradation state and how rapidly that can happen.
00;36;12;24 - 00;36;50;29
Laura
And I've been sharing videos like that on, on TikTok and Instagram and, starting to share more on YouTube as well. And, so for me, I'm also, you know, my background is in graphic design and I'm a, creative in that regard. And I do video editing and motion graphics. And so I know that, you know, communications are arts is is a big thing that, that scientists can use, partnering up with a designer or a creative to communicate complex ideas or complex information, and sharing it in an engaging way.
00;36;51;01 - 00;37;00;13
Laura
for me, it's, you know, I've been using TikTok, as my form of getting a lot of information out there quickly because,
00;37;00;13 - 00;37;13;11
Laura
kind of figured out this, this beautiful formula of inspiring and educating all in the same video. And people tend to grasp Ahold of that, like they're seeing things that they haven't seen before, but they're also understanding,
00;37;13;13 - 00;37;13;19
Laura
You know.
00;37;13;19 - 00;37;42;15
Laura
Complex ideas in a simple form. And that's engaging. And you have to make this information fun for people like, so they want to watch it. otherwise they might just go out on the ice and get hurt or breakthrough or, you know, hurt themselves. And, you know, if you put a video out there that could potentially, like, go viral or whatever, they may have seen that before, they had that experience.
00;37;42;16 - 00;38;02;10
Laura
there was an accident in Toronto where I, I felt like I should have hustled more to get more information out there as fast as I could so that that potentially wouldn't have happened, because I ended up being only one degree of separation from the person that fell through the ice that way.
00;38;02;12 - 00;38;19;25
Laura
so for me, it was just like, you know, I have to get this stuff out there as soon as I can. So in the vein of the conversation that we're having, having if I can help us in that flight to get information out there, I think that's one of its biggest benefits.
00;38;19;25 - 00;38;30;27
Paolo
in a nutshell, how do you make sure that the ice is safe before you actually hit it with your blades? Can you tell us very briefly.
00;38;32;00 - 00;38;44;09
Laura
Yeah, I have a few different methods. the easiest method that I use is the the ROC test method, or it's basically an impact test. So I take a round rock the size of two fists,
00;38;44;09 - 00;38;56;07
Laura
and I throw it up 20ft and out 20ft. And, I've even been doing, like, physics research on this and talking with physicists who have done some, early calculations.
00;38;56;07 - 00;39;17;06
Laura
And, that rock is hitting the ice with, like, you know, upwards of 1,500 pounds of force. So, you know, some people might scoff at that method because it's, you know, it's an easy method. You've got a rock around rock the size of two fists on the side of the lake. Like that's an easy method to use. And so some people think that it should be more technical than that.
00;39;17;06 - 00;39;34;19
Laura
But, you know, if you look at physics like it's it can be as simple as that. So what I'm looking for is what the, the ice is doing when the rock hits, like if it's, it really shows like is the ice soft when it hits, like does the ice or does the rock stick to the ice or does it bounce?
00;39;34;19 - 00;39;39;10
Laura
If it bounce, it's nice and hard. and it's strong ice.
00;39;39;10 - 00;39;53;08
Laura
the another method that I use is like, once I get that first initial rock test over with, then maybe I'll, I will step on the ice, like close to the shore with an ice screw. And then I'll drill my ice through and I'll measure the depth of the ice that way to,
00;39;53;08 - 00;40;16;17
Laura
And then, you know, you can even go as crazy as bring a, bring a drill up there and ice. I'll give you a fisherman. the Nordic skaters use ice probes to stab the ice with a one swift hit. you can tell what the quality of the ice is as ice sprays out from that hit. Or if the the probe sticks into the ice and
00;40;16;17 - 00;40;23;01
Laura
the method there is if you can stab it three times and it doesn't poke all the way through, it's usually safe to skate on.
00;40;23;04 - 00;40;34;14
Laura
anything less than three stabs is is questionable. But then your own safety gear. So ice skate with a life preserver, ice picks, and a throw rope bag with me at all times. And you know
00;40;34;14 - 00;40;43;04
Laura
those those pieces of gear and knowing how to use it and practicing it ahead of time is what helped save my life that day and my friends that day.
00;40;43;07 - 00;40;44;17
Laura
of the accident.
00;40;44;17 - 00;40;54;25
Paolo
That's what you're going to use. In case the ice breaks and you fall into the water. Right.
00;40;54;27 - 00;40;56;00
Laura
Yeah
Tenzing
Can I add something?
Paolo
Of course
00;40;56;00 - 00;41;13;29
Tenzing
Like. Just add something to, Laura like, I have two questions. so what was the. You recently skated in Gokyo in the Everest reagion. So was, how was the experience, like skating in the highest, Everest region and in other parts of the world, is there, how was the ice? Is there any difference?
00;41;19;14 - 00;41;41;08
Laura
Yeah. Well, and actually that's a really good question. because the ice at Gokyo, it was very similar to what I've experienced around the world. understandably, it's a glacial lake. So the feel of the ice is a little bit like silkier. it's got that fine grain, glacial flour in it.
00;41;41;08 - 00;41;49;28
Laura
but because it's so high in elevation, the top layer of ice tends to melt faster than other lakes that I've skated on.
00;41;50;05 - 00;42;01;00
Laura
So later in the day, like, you know, 11 a.m. or 12 p.m. 1 p.m., anything past 1 p.m., the top layer of ice could get a little bit soft.
00;42;01;00 - 00;42;15;03
Laura
the first trip that I took up there was to go to Scout Lakes and, in anticipation for, the highest figure skating show, an ice hockey match that I partnered with Nepal Tourism in and, February of 2020.
00;42;15;06 - 00;42;16;12
Laura
And,
00;42;16;12 - 00;42;34;16
Laura
You know, it was really cool because the, the ice was three inches thick when we arrived. So it was it was good for me to skate on as soon as we got there. It was beautiful and it was pristine blue teal ice. but that was the thing I noticed the most. And especially for the event that we had later on, was,
00;42;34;16 - 00;42;41;03
Laura
I knew that it was going to snow between trips that I was there, like, so I was there on a scouting mission, and I got the fresh, pristine ice.
00;42;41;06 - 00;42;45;12
Laura
But then when we had the event, it was in February and it had already gotten snowed on.
00;42;45;12 - 00;43;12;20
Laura
So I taught the locals there how to maintain the ice for the event. And that February and, what we experienced during the event was the ice got soft around, like 11 a.m. to 12 p.m.. so we pretty much had to get off the ice surface, to let it it wasn't, fall through danger, but it was like a soft blade issue where, like, you know, it snagged your blade and it might trip you,
00;43;12;20 - 00;43;18;00
Laura
so we would have to wait for it to freeze overnight to be able to skate on the hard ice
00;43;18;03 - 00;43;35;28
Laura
the next day. So I think for me, it was just noticing that the sun at that elevation, it really cranks on the ice. And when you're ice is, it's sparkly and it's reflective and it pin pongs around and it like, melts itself.
00;43;35;28 - 00;43;43;11
Laura
so it, I can see how things are melting at a rapid rate up there from that experience.
00;43;43;11 - 00;44;13;06
Paolo
And Tenzing the fact that the ice up there is melting quickly. And, What's happening? A happening in the valley in general is something that is not just hypothetical for you, right? You've got skin in the game. It's hitting close to home because you were born in a bazaar in the Everest Valley. And, so what what does the work you're doing represent for yourself, but also for the Sherpa community?
00;44;13;06 - 00;44;23;11
Paolo
Laura was talking about information about communication. Are you hoping to make a difference in your community with your work?
00;44;24;26 - 00;44;45;28
Tenzing
I'll start with one story. I was up there in my village just a few weeks ago. I was up there for a festival celebration. so we had all of my family members. People were coming from the US, UK everywhere. So it was a festival, and everyone was there. And there's this mountain just opposite of our village called Conde,
00;44;46;00 - 00;45;10;19
Tenzing
So if you if you, if you see a picture of, Numche, Numche results, anyone can Google it. So it's, it's sort of like a you sip or you can see like the CCP. So it's perched up in a way so that on this side is the, the village. And on the opposite side is this mountain. So that is the mountain that every child in numpty who grows up in, this sees that mountain from his birth until his death.
00;45;10;22 - 00;45;19;25
Tenzing
Right? So that's, that's the view that you see, that's one thing that's been stable in their life, despite everything that's going on in their life. But this time when we were up there,
00;45;19;25 - 00;45;27;01
Tenzing
in the middle of the festival celebrations and everyone started to look outside and we went to the roof because it was, monsoon.
00;45;27;01 - 00;45;38;03
Tenzing
So it was foggy. But then that day it was quite clear. So everyone was like quite concerned, looking outside, what's going on? So naturally, I was also curious and I went outside to look and to our surprise, that mountain,
00;45;38;03 - 00;45;48;21
Tenzing
was black, completely black like there was not an inch of snow there, and the waterfalls that used to come from that mountain was also all dried up.
00;45;48;25 - 00;45;57;09
Tenzing
So I was in the one that when that all of my family moves, all of the villagers looking at that, they were very sad, actually. They were like, what does this mean?
00;45;57;09 - 00;46;01;24
Tenzing
That is very concerning. In my whole life I've not seen something like this.
00;46;01;24 - 00;46;06;00
Tenzing
it does it signifies something bad? Does it mean that climate change is already here?
00;46;06;00 - 00;46;24;22
Tenzing
So people already had those questions. I didn't have to go there and talk about climate change because people were inquisitive. People didn't like what they were seeing. So it means that what why I tell you this story is because people already know what it means. People have this connection with the environment, with the mountains, especially a high up in the region.
00;46;24;24 - 00;46;26;08
Tenzing
So they're very concerned.
00;46;26;08 - 00;46;40;13
Tenzing
now, coming back to the Science, because that happened because we had a snow less winter. There was no snow during the winters, and no snow during the winters is very devastating for the glaciers and for the people, for the water resources or agriculture.
00;46;40;13 - 00;46;41;23
Tenzing
why? Because for glaciers.
00;46;41;23 - 00;46;43;13
Tenzing
it's the primary food for,
00;46;43;13 - 00;46;54;11
Tenzing
the glaciers. Without snow, there is no glacier. And without enough snow that you have a glacier is in this constant balance of how much snow it receives, it receives and how much melting it experiences.
00;46;54;18 - 00;47;03;05
Tenzing
So take out the snow from the equation, then you just keep melting, bringing more warming temperatures. That's the worst case scenario for Glacier. So that's been going on.
00;47;03;05 - 00;47;25;01
Tenzing
Then that meltwater starts to accumulate to form lakes. And those lakes could outburst of glacial lake outburst flow. So it's this repetitive cycle that's been going on. And it's also like in this cycle, you bring one thing out of the equation and everything starts to go round and round, and that's what's been going on not only in the Everest region, not only in Nepal, but in the whole Hindu Kush Himalayan region.
00;47;25;04 - 00;47;38;19
Tenzing
And when I talk about snow, glaciers, ice or glacial lakes, it's because these are just the symptoms of the disease. These are just the symptoms that we see right now. The climate change itself is a disease unless we tackle the disease itself.
00;47;38;19 - 00;47;48;15
Tenzing
just tackling these, symptoms will not, be the solution. So at the end of the day, it is, tackling climate change, looking
00;47;48;15 - 00;47;49;17
Tenzing
for the solutions,
00;47;49;17 - 00;47;50;13
Tenzing
climate action.
00;47;50;13 - 00;48;12;24
Tenzing
So that's what we need to do. And that is also why we started, this new campaign called the Save Our Snow campaign. The seals new campaign fits in nicely because Save Our Snow campaign itself is, calling out to the world on what's going on. It's it's a climate action, campaign. The Our there is trying to empower the local people, the local mountain communities.
00;48;12;24 - 00;48;17;07
Tenzing
And the snow itself is signifying calamity. And so that is why I think it's very
00;48;17;07 - 00;48;30;09
Tenzing
important that these kind of voices are heard, that you hear from scientists, you hear from other people. But these people that have been living in the mountains, but these people are people, my people that we've been living in the mountains, we've been seeing through these changes.
00;48;30;09 - 00;48;38;06
Tenzing
We've been we've lived through these changes. And it's concerning for us. It's it's it's not a good side. So trying to amplify these voices towards the,
00;48;38;06 - 00;48;54;28
Tenzing
general public, towards the larger media is very, very important. And especially through visual mediums like Laura, has been talking about it because they're very powerful. They're very powerful to get the message through a picture or a video is so much, much better than papers or written words or anything.
00;48;55;01 - 00;49;09;23
Tenzing
So I think these kind of visual mediums are very, very useful. And why also it's important, I would like to say, is because the countries especially that have been hit hardest, are the other countries that don't have the capacity to,
00;49;09;23 - 00;49;20;07
Tenzing
combat climate change. They don't have the financial resources or the human resources. So that is why it's important that these voices are heard and these issues are raised more and more.
00;49;22;11 - 00;49;26;19
Paolo
It's very well said. And, before we wrap up,
00;49;26;19 - 00;49;28;22
Paolo
I just wanted to ask you both,
00;49;28;22 - 00;49;41;16
Paolo
what is your next big project? And, Tenzing, you were just talking about something that happened very recently. So maybe you can start. What's the what's your next big thing going to be?
00;49;41;16 - 00;50;02;00
Tenzing
I don't know if it's a big thing, that there's not much big thing things going around, but I will be going, to one of the glaciers soon after a month or so. there will be in western Nepal, and it'll be a big expedition. but we go to that glacier every year, so that's like a routine expedition.
00;50;02;00 - 00;50;05;29
Tenzing
So it's not something new, not something big, but something that we do every.
00;50;06;13 - 00;50;09;13
Paolo
What is the name of the glacier? Which one is it?
00;50;09;18 - 00;50;18;07
Tenzing
So the glacier is called Rika Som glacier that's in the western part of Nepal, in the Mustang district of new. But. So that's a glacier that we've been monitoring
00;50;18;07 - 00;50;31;07
Tenzing
since 2011. So more than a decade. So we've got this consistent long term data. So that is very important, especially when you're trying to talk about glaciers because we have one year data two years data that doesn't say much.
00;50;31;09 - 00;50;51;25
Tenzing
You need this consistent long term data. So sometimes I say that doing good science and is difficult because getting these good quality data, consistent quality data is very difficult. And it's sometimes voting for people. And sometimes this good science is willing because the results are not as exciting. Right. But
00;50;51;25 - 00;50;56;02
Tenzing
people need to understand that these kind of rudimentary science, this is very
00;50;56;02 - 00;51;08;29
Tenzing
But. Well, I also think that, Mustang is a very beautiful place. And you've told me before about these trips, and, I'm sure it's not going to be a boring trip, because it's always an adventure when you go up there, right?
00;51;09;29 - 00;51;11;12
Tenzing
And the trip itself is
00;51;12;14 - 00;51;31;24
Tenzing
I’m just saying sometimes people find the data and this the findings of this kind of data not as exciting as maybe something that you find very interesting in, in, in an expedition. But the Mustang in itself is very beautiful. If anyone wants to go, I think one of the, best places to visit in Nepal is Mr..
00;51;31;24 - 00;51;39;09
Paolo
That's great? I'm very much hoping to go there, and I'm very jealous. So, Laura, how about you?
00;51;41;10 - 00;51;50;16
Laura
For me personally, I'm working on getting an online course up and running. I started to learn to skate outside two years ago after,
00;51;50;16 - 00;52;02;14
Laura
the accident that I was involved in. And, just to get education out there, as fast as I possibly can. And so this year, I'll, be making a big push to get a course online.
00;52;02;16 - 00;52;17;05
Laura
I have workshops every fall, locally, and I'm starting to travel to other rinks nationally, and I've been requested to kind of globally as well. so I'll be working on that. And then, I'm really excited to,
00;52;17;05 - 00;52;28;03
Laura
network with more glacier scientists such as the Tenzing and some other Ice researchers to be an UN on the ground citizen scientist.
00;52;28;05 - 00;52;33;24
Laura
I've been chatting with, a guy up in Toronto who studies high alpine lakes,
00;52;33;24 - 00;52;55;26
Laura
and he studies them in a similar way that we do it through satellite imagery. but he's not as on the ground as I am, so I'm, I'm going to be hoping to partner with him and getting him some core samples and, and actually telling him when, when the ice is in and when it's ice is out and, getting him that information.
00;52;55;29 - 00;53;30;18
Laura
And, I also have, a little initiative that I've started running called No World Without Ice, where I'm asking people to come and fill out a form on my social media. if there's a link in my Instagram bio and my Tik Tok bio that you can, if there's lakes and rivers that use the skate on when you are a kid that no longer freeze anymore, I'm trying to document that and understand what is happening globally because, there's already dear friends of mine that can no longer skate on lakes outside and Austria.
00;53;30;20 - 00;53;34;21
Laura
The Netherlands are having big issues and they're a big skating country.
00;53;34;21 - 00;53;51;20
Laura
and then even locally on the East coast of the United States, there are many lakes and rivers that no longer freeze, that friends and family have grown up on. And so I'm trying to get a greater understanding on that to help communicate that story, because I think once people understand that it's
00;53;51;20 - 00;54;07;06
Laura
not you know, decades that this is occurring over, it's like within five years, there's places that I have skated that are no longer scalable within the past five years, like ice skates skated up and, in Banff National Park and are no longer exist because the glacier has receded so
00;54;07;06 - 00;54;18;25
Laura
much. So I think if people are able to see that it's happening within their lifetime at a rapid rate, that's really important. So those are a few things that I'm working on currently.
00;54;19;00 - 00;54;43;27
Paolo
And that's all very important work. Please do keep us posted. We love to know what happens next with, those projects we'd like to know what happens next with the technologies we just discussed and whether all these things can spark positive change. which we are all hoping for. It was fascinating to speak with both of you. Unfortunately, we have to wrap up.
00;54;44;00 - 00;54;49;26
Paolo
but I'd like to thank you. Sorry, Tenzing. You were trying to say something.
00;54;50;14 - 00;55;13;26
Tenzing
I was thinking, like, maybe for Laura. I was thinking of a solution. Like I was thinking of something that we can do. like, maybe you're talking about lakes, right? So maybe we could actually put, thermal sensors, temperature sensors within the lake, and then put them for a year or so. And once we get the thermal regime of the lake and then proceed with, air temperature.
00;55;13;29 - 00;55;18;27
Tenzing
And at time, once we have this long, maybe 1 or 2 years of data, we can train it with Ai so then we can
00;55;20;13 - 00;55;21;28
Tenzing
Predict it much better
00;55;21;28 - 00;55;28;12
Tenzing
we can predict when, when we have this, layering, ice, layering of the lake and when it's most ideal to go skating.
00;55;28;12 - 00;55;30;17
Tenzing
It's much easier for you for
00;55;30;28 - 00;55;31;20
Tenzing
Decision making.
00;55;31;20 - 00;55;35;18
Tenzing
This is just a thought that came up like that could be, a possible, project we could delv in later on
00;55;35;27 - 00;55;36;16
Laura
Yeah.
00;55;38;14 - 00;55;39;05
Laura
I would love.
00;55;39;05 - 00;55;40;09
Laura
That.
00;55;40;19 - 00;55;59;18
Paolo
That's amazing. If, this podcast can spark, collaboration between the two of you, then, it will have achieved something that I would be very, very excited about. So please do keep me posted. And, let me know if you end up doing something like that. Which sounds like,
00;55;59;18 - 00;55;59;22
Paolo
a
00;55;59;22 - 00;56;06;04
Paolo
very good idea and potentially something that you could a principle that you could apply to so many other disciplines, right?
00;56;06;04 - 00;56;14;25
Paolo
Outdoors. And, in the mountains, whether it's helping in zoom or climbing or skiing, they can, can think about a thousand ways
00;56;14;25 - 00;56;21;13
Paolo
to use that kind of approach and make it helpful for people who, who live out in the mountains
00;56;21;13 - 00;56;27;10
Paolo
now, unfortunately, we do have to wrap up. It was fascinating to speak with, both of you.
00;56;27;13 - 00;56;37;02
Paolo
Thank you for making the science and your fascinating projects, accessible for all of us. Thank you for explaining and for educating.
00;56;37;02 - 00;56;46;26
Paolo
for inspiring, of course, because I find both, of your profiles extremely inspiring. And I know a lot of other people online, and in real life
00;56;46;26 - 00;56;49;09
Paolo
share the same sentiment with me.
00;56;49;11 - 00;56;52;12
Paolo 1
So I'd really like to thank you. And,
00;56;52;12 - 00;56;57;01
Paolo
our great production team before we close. I don't have to forget,
00;56;57;01 - 00;57;11;24
Paolo
to give credit to everyone who is making this podcast possible. On Thin Ice has original music by Nadir Kassim, our script editor and editorial advisor is Dave Vetter, and our video editor is Canyon James.
00;57;11;27 - 00;57;33;23
Paolo
And crucially, credit goes to our partners at the Balley Peak Outlook Foundation for supporting this podcast. The foundation is very serious about defending mountains around the world from the impacts of climate change and excessive tourism. Check out their website to see what they're doing in the Himalayas in the Alps and other places. Now I'd be curious to hear from our audience as well.
00;57;33;26 - 00;57;51;19
Paolo
What do you think about the use of artificial intelligence to help us adapt to a changing climate? Let us know your thoughts in the comments or on social media. On Thin Ice is available on Apple, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again to our guests. See you next time. Goodbye.