236- Combating Discrimination with Technology and Cultural Sensitivity

What if artificial intelligence could help eradicate discrimination and foster a more inclusive workplace? Tune into Politically High Tech as we sit down with the inspiring Dr. Frank Douglas, who takes us through his incredible journey from Guyana to becoming a leading figure in the pharmaceutical industry. Despite his remarkable achievements, including the development of drugs like Lantus and Allegra, Dr. Douglas shares the racial discrimination he faced and introduces his current mission with Safe Haven Dialogues to address systemic discrimination through personal narratives and cultural sensitivity.

Explore the transformative potential of AI in combating systemic discrimination and enhancing creativity and teamwork in educational settings. Dr. Douglas and I discuss how Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives have been pivotal, not just in his career but in driving innovation and opportunities across various fields. Real-life stories, including a career-changing incident at Xerox, highlight the vital role of meaningful DEI projects and the power of resilience and strategic problem-solving in overcoming workplace challenges.

Dive deeper into the multifaceted perspectives on DEI, from appreciating its potential to recognizing the importance of execution over mere concepts. We wrap up with a thought-provoking discussion on the intersection of technology, social issues, and politics, and how platforms like Safe Haven Dialogues can facilitate these crucial conversations. Don't miss this enlightening episode that champions resilience, strategic solutions, and the undeniable power of inclusivity.

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Chapters

• 0:15 Exploring Discrimination in High-Tech
• 8:31 Unlocking AI's Potential for Innovation
• 13:55 Framing Solutions for Discrimination Issues
• 31:02 Discussing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion
• 36:22 Intersectional Conversations in Technology

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:15

Welcome everyone to Politically High Tech with your host, elias. I have a guest here, elias, I have a guest here. You know listeners, if you've been following through this podcast, through YouTube Rumble or even through Buzzsprout or Apple Podcasts whatever is your preferred medium. You know, lately I've been having more anti-DEI voices, some that have been very, been very critical of it. Me, I'm critical of it because of more of its execution. But I have a doctor here, not just in the medical sense. Also, the academic says as well yes, so he's both. He's double doctor. I think he'd call you maybe double DR or something like that. He's a very accomplished man and to get to this, a little bit about his story.

Speaker 1: 1:11

And it's so sad that great people have to be discriminated based on skin color. You know some of you say, oh, we solved this racist issue if we did, we will not need this conversation. Skin color Some of you say, oh, we solved this racist issue If we did, we will not need this conversation. This conversation will be complete nonsense. But this is my opinion of overall discrimination. For me it's case by case. We have improved, but there's still room for improvement. That's all I'm going to say. We have made some strides to improve, but there's still room for improvement. That's all I'm going to say. We have made some strides to improve, but there's still work that needs to be done.

Speaker 1: 1:53

Dems don't be too happy with me either, because I'm critical of you as well, especially when you overplay the whole is racist, racist, racist, when sometimes it's just not. I'm more at the middle. If you can prove to me he's racist, you can convince me easily. However, if you can't prove to me he's racist, if it's just you crying like a child or if you try to do everything Right, you know it depends On what you do too. So, with that said, I'm going to have my guest here introduce himself. He's very accomplished. I want him to introduce himself as much as he can, and because you know you need to listen to more people like this. So let's welcome Dr Franklin. Oh, I'm Franklin. Oops, dr Frank Douglas.

Speaker 2: 2:45

Thank you very much. By way of introduction, I was born in Guyana what was British Guyana and came to America in 1963 on a Fulbright scholarship as an undergraduate, did my bachelor's at Lehigh University in the engineering college, and then completed a PhD in physical chemistry and an MD from Cornell University, trained in internal medicine at the Johns Hopkins Hospital and the National Institute of Health and completed my fellowship in what's called neuroendocrinology at the National Institute of Health, started life as a academic, life as a academic physician at the University of Chicago and a couple of years later was discovered by the pharmaceutical industry and went to work for what was Ciba it's now Novartis and I guess my strange background of engineering, physical chemistry and medicine allowed me to move very rapidly from a director to the senior vice president and head of research for the US in three years. That rise, however, was associated with discrimination issues along the way, but I was able to overcome them, then went on to become the executive vice president and member of the board of directors actually sorry, the board of management. Namely, I was in the C-suite of a top five global pharmaceutical company Aventis it's now Sanofi and was there for several years. I have the wonderful distinction during my career of leading several teams of scientists in the US, germany, france, england, japan, who have been responsible for 25 drugs that are in the market, drugs such as Lantus for the treatment ofugs, such as Atlantis for the treatment of diabetes, taxotere for the treatment of cancer, allegra for the treatment of seasonal rhinitis, seasonal hay fever. So whenever you hear an ad on Allegra, you can say that you met the guy who identified that molecule and led the teams that developed it and got it on the market. So that's my background.

Speaker 2: 5:09

Retired from the industry, then returned to academia at MIT and then at the University of Chicago where I developed an institute for them, retired a second time and led a small biotech company which unfortunately ran out of money. The parent ran out of money. It was a Taiwanese company that was the parent. So I retired a third time. And then, with the incident of George Floyd sitting there and watching that, something occurred to me, and that is that in such cases it's an individual. In spite of the people who were on the side trying their darndest to get Chauvin to take his knee off of George Floyd's neck, to no avail. Nonetheless, it was an individual who was, as it turned out, being killed.

Speaker 2: 5:59

And I thought of that and began to think of it in the following sense namely, a lot of excellent work is being done as we try to get managers to become more aware of cultural differences, the differences in approaches, sensitivities to language, etc. But sometimes we focus at the organizational level and we don't see the individual. So I established a small company, safe Haven Dialogues, to really focus on the individuals, or I should say the individual, and a system that I use, which I call reframing, to help individuals deal with issues of systemic discrimination. So, in short, that's my story and, as the little kids say and I'm sticking to it Basic, surface-level stuff.

Speaker 1: 6:57

Trust me, if you want to dig deeper into this man, I really think you should, especially following social medias. I normally don't say that early or it is on-site because there's a lot. He's a pretty in-depth kind of person. It's sad that someone as accomplished as he has been discriminated. You would have thought, oh, he's such a genius, maybe he should get some privileges, give him a reason to run among the ranks. But yeah, just deal with discrimination.

Speaker 1: 7:21

It's still a real thing and I'm happy that there's at least an ellipsis to that discrimination, not a period, because I'll be ending with a period and then they just lose for whatever reason. Maybe they think the whole company's against them Probably true, and they probably get it because they see themselves as powerless. So I think that's good and I deal with mostly adult based DEI, dei in schools. I'm not an expert at that. I don't have children, so that's out of my lane. Even the woman talked to me about how bad DEI is and DEI in schools. They wanted to D-I-E. I'm just going to make this a little tech thing real quick and then we can continue with the whole business and social politics of it. Have you encountered AI in any way when you did this small business.

Speaker 2: 8:22

Yes, I use it myself. I'm preparing for different things. Yes, it's a genuine Google.

Speaker 1: 8:31

And what do you think? Can AI be an ally, in a sense, against systemic discrimination, or do you think it will make it even worse? Or there's a middle ground with these tools?

Speaker 2: 8:44

The way I view AI is AI allows us to do things that we can do, but at warp speed right now, and we therefore have an opportunity to use the information that we can get from AI very rapidly and to use its capabilities for graphics, for displaying things, to use that to take forward the important messages one, two, as a matter of fact, to encourage innovation by bringing people together with diverse views, and that's part of the diversity part. I think AI actually can markedly enhance the diversity of opinions, because what AI can do is to very rapidly display thoughts different thoughts that people have that's, you know they can rapidly make graphics for it. Thoughts that people have that you know, they can rapidly make graphics for it. And people respond to graphics much more rapidly than they respond to the thought, ideas when they see them graphically displayed, for example, you know. So I think AI can be a tremendous tool to foster innovation. Bring people together with diverse ideas to be innovation. Bring people together with diverse ideas to be inclusive, because one can take rudimentary what seems rudimentary, ideas or ideas that are not well understood, and use AI to flesh them out. One can use AI to ask the why, why, why, why, why and get answers. So I think we are in a wonderful opportunity. Of course, in my chemistry background, ai, for example, will now be able to help us to very rapidly and graphically present three-dimensionally molecules that we have difficulty doing. And when you can do that, you can better do and more rapidly do drug design, namely trying to find what's the active part of that molecule and what type of design of molecule could fit there, either to antagonize the molecule or to agonize it to get a therapeutic benefit. So for me, ai is just a wonderful tool and I think, frankly, every university, rather than thinking about how do they check whether students are using AI to write their papers, et cetera, they should rather be thinking how they change the way we educate, to use AI to broaden the innovation that are in people, to help them express ideas that they can't fully express and to get them to expand their thinking and their thoughts and to get teams to go, you know, further than they would have gone before. So for me, dei is just wonderful and in the DEI space I think I can do a lot.

Speaker 2: 11:55

Let me just make this comment because it was interesting to me. Someone said to me well, what do you do? You know, elon Musk, for example, is saying that what we should have instead of DEI we should have MEI, namely Merit, excellence and Intelligence for Promoting People, etc. Mei and I said you know I am a proud product of DEI because what diversity, equity inclusion is, diversity Equity Inclusion is? It was really the name, if you like, given to the set of acts and executive orders in the 60s, starting in 61 with President Kennedy's Equal Employment, opportunity Order, 64, civil rights, 65, voting rights, 67, the Equal Employment Act, 68, fair Housing Act. It's those acts in the 60s which opened up opportunities for people who were being discriminated, whether on gender, ethnicity, etc. To get entrance into, be it jobs or to universities.

Speaker 2: 13:09

So I say to people, I'm a proud product of DEI and because of DEI I got the opportunity to show my MEI, to show my merit, my excellence and intelligence and, as I mentioned in the opening, to finally get the opportunity to be in my case, unfortunately to say, but I was the first Black to be on the board of management of a top five global pharmaceutical company and, as I mentioned, leading at that time 6,000 scientists worldwide who contributed to at least 25 drugs that are helping millions and millions of people whom I've never met, many of whom I've never met. So because of DEI I have had the opportunity. Were it not for DEI, I would never have had that opportunity. And guess what Fewer drugs would have been produced?

Speaker 1: 14:04

You know, in a fair society you would not need DEI, you wouldn't be definitely that. You know Elon Musk's acronym, alphabet A, m. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one because he's trying to counter anything that's mainstream or kind of left-wing whatever he wants to frame it. Me and my book. You would have been yeah, just dump him there. I mean, you got accomplishments. You already led to discoveries, and drugs are helping people live longer, deal with symptoms so much better. Imagine without that, who knows, if I had more people dying with severe COVID as ridiculous as that sounds, that would have been a horrible reality if we weren't discovering these drugs. You know and you know I actually thank you for that and I thank you for your contributions, despite tough and outlandish discrimination. But you still got things done and I actually respect that. You know I don't respect people who just become cry babies and do nothing about it. That's the thing I do not respect. But you did something about it. You overcame. You overcame a lot of that discrimination, despite you being an accomplished person coming to America. So yeah, you know, accomplishments don't mean you're going to win everybody over with ease. Unfortunately, that's the reality.

Speaker 1: 15:30

I love that you mentioned about graphics. Graphics do capture people's attention. Graphics are more memorable. We digest a lot faster. We are very visually sensitive creatures, so I love the graphics point about the AI as well. They generate graphics, especially for molecules, things that our human brain just can't really get right. Ai could perfect that even faster. I want to change that. I want to focus more on DEI. I think you bring up some interesting points that might restore my hope in it, because so far I'm cynical. To be honest, I'm cynical about it Since you do this kind of work safe havens, dialogues what makes you stand out from other people that or other companies that talk about DEI? Because I see that you talk about your stories. You're very accomplished. There's no reason you shouldn't have dealt with discrimination because they say, oh, let's give this guy a try he's accomplished and see what he can do. At least let's separate you from the others. That's what we'll do here.

Speaker 2: 16:37

Let me tell you what led me to the system I use, which is called Reframe. When I completed my PhD, I was hired by Xerox and for three as an assistant scientist beginning assistant scientist PhD and for three months I could not get a good project. And then one day a young white man who had not completed his PhD joined the group and within a week he was placed on what was the most exciting project we had in research and development at that time. So I went to see my manager to have yet another discussion about when would I get a good, meaningful project? And suddenly I said to him you know, steve, don't think of me as though I'm Frank, think of me as though I'm Bob. And I was stunned to see the recognition come over his face as he looked at me and he said you know, bob has only been here a week and I've put him on the R3 project, which was this really fantastic project. I was furious. I raced out of his office, ran down the hall to the office of the senior vice president to give him another example of my being discriminated against. Well, and in fact that incident led me to leave and go to medical school.

Speaker 2: 18:07

A couple of years later, I was in medical school, I was thinking about that incident and realized that I had made two mistakes. The first one was that Dr Travis, who had been at Xerox about a year, had made it very clear that he wanted to hire young black PhDs, and that summer he had hired three of us to join the single, the one black PhD in research and development that Xerox had in Webster in New York at that time. So it probably was more important to him that Frank Douglas would do well than it was to Frank Douglas, because he put himself on the line bringing in this black PhD. So I missed that. The second thing I missed was what was my desired outcome? I didn't really want the senior vice president to go and have tough words with my boss. I wanted a good project. So had I reframed this and had I gone to the senior vice president and said you know, dr Tribus, could you help my boss, steve, find me a good project, I might have retired from Xerox, for heaven's sake. He was three levels above my boss. He would have walked into his office. He would have said find a man, a good project.

Speaker 2: 19:25

It happened yesterday, in 2019, I published my memoirs. I published my memoirs and when I was writing that incident in my memoirs, something occurred to me, and it was that I had actually learned from that incident, because, as I looked at different incidences of discrimination in my life thereafter, I actually refram. And what do I mean by reframed? By reframing is finding another problem to solve, the solution to which not only addresses the issue you have but actually also helps others who are connected to it. And the reason I fell on that was because of something that happened in medical school that gave me the light bulb, went on. But as I reflected on it throughout my life and I came up with instances, I noted the following Someone will come to me, an employee or graduate student, to explain the situation they're in, to talk about being discriminated against, and I would ask well, have you talked with your supervisor, with your manager?

Speaker 2: 20:44

And invariably the answer would be yes, but they're not hearing me, they're not listening. The second thing that I observed is that there are times, indeed, when the aggrieved I use the term aggrieved individual gets a good solution for the problem. They return to their work unit and the allies that they had, their co-workers, who were always sympathetic to them and the problems they were having. Some of them were very happy for them, but others didn't seem terribly happy. Well, the reason why the others weren't terribly happy is that they also had problems. Now the grief has gotten their problems solved, but they still don't have their problem solved, so it's difficult for them to be effortlessly happy for their fellow worker who's had his or her problem solved. So with those two things and I mentioned early the individual I set up safe haven dialogues.

Speaker 2: 21:51

I set up safe haven dialogues the one focus on the individual to help individuals first.

Speaker 2: 21:59

First we'll agree First what's your desired outcome and then have them describe the environment they are in, because when you describe the environment you begin to get a sense of equity generally in that environment. And then to describe their issues around inclusion, because when you talk about inclusion you're not talking about what's happening at your work unit with your supervisor, and with your supervisor and with your colleagues and for them. And we have a matrix which we use. We plot a two-by-two matrix which we call our equity, inclusion, culture matrix, and get them to really understand in which quadrant they are in this matrix and, based on that analysis, where could they find a better problem to solve? As described before would be a problem, the solution to which not only helps them, but also would help others. Is it on the equity side or is it on the inclusion side, or is it on the inclusion side? So that is what we do in our reframing process and this is what we offer to help individuals who are having issues of discrimination and or are having issues of conflict.

Speaker 1: 23:22

Yeah, those are definitely different. I don't hear a lot of DEI talking about how you can solve not just your own individual problem, even the other person's problem. I mean that should make it much harder to discriminate, because some correct me if I'm wrong here but some of the corporate leaders and managers feel like they're just being lectured to with this DEI and that's why they get defensive and some of them even dare sabotage it. I remember there was a lot of companies that was playing DEI consultants or even executives and then a few years they removed them. They find it very problematic. They found the results were not great, so they were a waste of money. So they decided to cut them off, which I'm not surprised, because at the end of the day, businesses care about making money. That's just my thing. That's just my thing. So I definitely see a difference. You get deeper to the problem, which I like, and you see you're trying to address some of that. It's not just your issue, the individual's issues, but even the other person's issues there's another aspect.

Speaker 2: 24:29

There's another aspect, there's an additional aspect to this. And I tell individuals who come to me for coaching I say here's the situation. It doesn't matter how empathetic your supervisor might be, he or she is human. So if you go to them and you say so, if you go to them and you say you know, this department I'm in, you know is hostile to me, it's discriminating. What are you going to do about it? Or you might be the problem, or, whether you say that or not, they see that they're the problem. They immediately, no matter how empathetic they are, they immediately become defensive.

Speaker 2: 25:12

If you go to them and say, for example, you say in meetings, I've noticed that there's some of us, we raise our hands and we are ignored. Sometimes the very thing that we said, that was ignored. Someone else says it and they are applauded for saying it, etc. And, as a result, perhaps we're not getting the greatest productivity from those participating in a meeting. If you were able to solve that, I think it would really help the unit be even more productive and, as a matter of fact, if you solve that, you actually will solve my problem, because I'm one of those who will get past the work. I said. If you do that, notice what you've done. You've addressed a problem that affects a number of other people. You have not accused the supervisor, but you have engaged him or her in solving a problem that also affects you, but affects more than you.

Speaker 2: 26:10

And the reason why it's important. Let's face it in a company, you are not being paid to be socially wonderful. You're being paid to produce a product, to be productive and to make the company profitable. That's why you're being paid. You're being paid. It turns out that if people feel valued, people feel they belong, people are being recognized and rewarded for the work they do. They become more motivated, more engaged, and Gallup has shown that those companies that are in the top quartile with respect to employee engagement have 25% greater productivity, profitability and 60% fewer absenteeism than those who are in the bottom quarter, and they have shown this after looking at several companies globally over 30 years. So the data is solid. So that's why you're there. So don't expect your leaders to be social workers. That's not why the shareholders are paying them, and the contribution they're being paid for is to produce a product that's going to help people, whatever that product is.

Speaker 1: 27:35

That's how they are correct because I want to make sure I get this right. For me, being correct is more important than protecting my ego. My ego gets killed, so be it so. So you're saying what companies that, of course, rewards recognize people for contributions done great work right, even though they say they're not paid to be socially. But there are some social aspects where you've just got to pay attention to which people are doing the work, try to maintain good relations with them, and then those who are getting rewarded for such excellent work, of course, are going to stay there. There's going to be fewer absentee isms, which I agree, and that's the ironic part. There is some social aspects into being the top global companies that are big and profitable, because there are some social aspects, which is the biggest irony, believe it or not, and you already said this right, metadata, three decades it's hard to argue against that. If it's like a one-month data, even one-year data, you could argue and debunk that. But if it's based on 30 years one year data you could argue and debunk that, but if it's based on 30 years, that's a lot harder to argue against. So I just want to make sure that that's that's being heard from listeners. So if you want to think look, whatever opinion you have on DEI, you can have whatever opinion you want. I invite the pro DEI, anti DEI or neutral, just comment the section See comment. You know comment below all the times when you're doing a certain phone to the bottom or the side depends how you angle your phone. Now I want to have a comment section see what you think and you're pro dei or you think dei is nonsense. I want to hear it. I want to hear it. I can understand both sides of the aisle with this issue and he's providing a very good case for DEI right now.

Speaker 1: 29:55

I say one of the best Because a few of them I was able to debunk right on the spot and say I don't really address it. It's so superficial. I even dare say it's fake, even a lie sometimes, because the way it's been executed in other businesses and especially DEI group I was a part of it was nonsense. They just cared about secretly preserving status quo. Only work when it was convenient. So I'm happy they kicked me out because I was when I was pushing that group. I was happy that I was trying to push that group forward and even get my ideas and I was that lonely man. Sometimes I challenged the entire group. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I like to say well, no, sometimes that's a lie. I say I have like a probably 50% win rate when I draw the line. The same, especially when one of those vicious statements I interpret as incomplete work is okay. So no, that's not okay. Then okay, might as well not have this group and just disband it, because you got to get this work done, and that was many disagreements.

Speaker 1: 31:02

I'm not going to talk about the best case of D I have heard yet. That's why I said maybe I wish this guy was probably the leader doctor of medical and academia. I'm sure the leader doctor of medical and academia, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm pretty sure either the job I'm in will either be really impressed or really intimidating. It goes either one way. If you're that willing and I don't do this to kiss, but I see greatness when I do I could easily recognize it. It shouldn't matter by skin color or gender. Okay, it shouldn't. I know for some younger people it's easier, but you know there's plenty of older people that understands that as well. So I don't want to make it an ageist comment, but you know, so far this is the strongest case for it.

Speaker 1: 31:55

I think one day I should do a DEI, one for pro-DEI, one anti-DEI, and see how that debate is going to go. Maybe I should start doing that. And you know, alright, let's see how that goes. And you see a lot of interesting things that I agree with, because it's not just covering the surface level nonsense. That's the problem. A lot of them is getting to the deeper parts, even helping the company grow even more. It could be a boost for a company, not just about me, me, me, why, why my life sucks, why I got to be discriminated. No, it's, you're addressing the problem and you're providing great tactics, tactics that I could definitely learn from.

Speaker 1: 32:41

Okay, it's because I'm a host. It doesn't mean I know everything, I'm learning as well. So, listeners, I really hope you're getting this. You know, if you're anti-DIE, that's fine, but at least listen to it, just to know the opposition. Don't just say it's fake or you wish it DIE, or provide a good counterpoint to it. Maybe in schools, that one I will kind of side with the right end.

Speaker 1: 33:10

But in terms of adults, look, adults can pick up whatever they want to learn. At the end of the day, you know they're adults, I'm more freedom based on that one. They want to do DEI, they want to be a DEI expert and try to make sure it's diverse, be inclusive and make sure equity is preserved, then that's fine with me. I'm not against the idea itself that it's a no-go, but the execution is where my biggest criticism is at. So I kind of sound like a centrist in this issue. I am politically a centrist, but that's why it's purple at the end of the day, not red or blue. It's mixed too. I'm right at the middle and, yeah, I see DEI as good. But the execution is where I have a big problem with some organizations. You know, if people want a bigger DEI voice, I think I might refer to you, I might spread your name, because I still believe it's in demand, but it's not as big as it used to be after, especially a few years after the whole George Floyd massive BLM protests.

Speaker 1: 34:22

That happened around the globe, by the way, not just in America, not just in Great Britain, all over the world. It actually impressed me and scared me at the same time. To be honest, I have mixed feelings about that. But look, it happened, it's a fact. It's sad. It's sad that it took a death of someone just to spark all of this. To spark all of this, I wish it was just something as silly. You know, something like a police harassing a person verbally or something will spark that, but it took a death and, sadly, that's what it normally takes to spark these massive, massive shifts across the world. So that's the sad part. So he's a martyr in that sense? No, he's a martyr in that sense for sure.

Speaker 1: 35:18

Okay, yeah, so let's wrap this conversation up. We have a million things we want to do. I'm sure we could easily talk about another two, three hours on DEI and stuff. You know I am not a DEI expert. As a disclaimer, I just bring different points of view. Just expose me and you listeners to these both sides of the argument. I don't want to favor too much of one side over the other. So anything else you want to add before I wrap this up?

Speaker 2: 35:51

No, just invite your listeners to go to my website, which is wwwsafetheavondialogues-llccom. Safehavendialogues-llccom. You'll get a lot of information. You'll see my books. You'll learn about lot of information. You'll see my books. You'll learn about the reframe.

Speaker 1: 36:12

So remember, I'm going to put a link in the description okay, Safe Haven Dialogues. Safe Haven Dialogues. Okay, and it has hyphen LLCcom.

Speaker 2: 36:30

Yes, hyphen LLC. S-a-f-e Safe Haven Diallccom. Yes, hyphen L-L-C. S-a-f-e Safe Haven. Dialogues.

Speaker 1: 36:36

I'll put a link in the description. I'm not going to spell it out.

Speaker 2: 36:39

G-U-E-S, dash L-L-C dot com.

Speaker 1: 36:46

So you'll get a virtual class. So, yes, this is technically a technology episode, but it did mix up a lot of social, social, dei aspect of it and slightly political, that's okay.

Speaker 1: 37:00

I don't mind intersectionality, because good conversations come out of intersectionality, naturally speaking. Sometimes you want to just put it in a box. Oh, I only want technology, only politics, only God. Sometimes you want to just put it in a box oh, I only want technology, only politics, only God. Sometimes you don't make brilliant connections, you just want to put everything in a separate box. You got to sometimes mix things together. Come up with a good conversation. At least that's my philosophy of a good conversation. I'm not unique. I'm sure of that. Again, go there and I also not just that as well follow him on social media. He has a Facebook, youtube, instagram and a LinkedIn and LinkedIn. When I come to say, sure Very good.

Speaker 2: 37:43

Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 37:47

No problem. No problem at all. Wherever or whenever you listen to this podcast, you have a blessed day, afternoon or night. Thank you,