Episode 5: Dot Leonard, The Icon of Oyster Restoration

Dot Leonard: The Icon of Oyster Restoration

In this very special episode of OYSTER-ology, host Kevin Cox sits down with Dorothy ”Dot” Leonard, a towering icon and pioneer in the world of oyster restoration and marine conservation. Dot has dedicated over five decades to oyster restoration and rejuvenating coastal and marine ecosystems globally. Starting with her lifelong love of the marine world, Dot shares insights into the evolution of shellfish restoration, the decline of populations due to pollution and innovative strategies in fisheries management. The episode touches on her leadership roles at various government agencies and highlights the complexities of balancing commercial interests, aquaculture, and restoration.  She discusses her journey in rejuvenating coastal and marine ecosystems globally, including significant contributions through NOAA, National Marine Fisheries as well as her own Ocean Equities organization, and her spearheading of the prestigious International Conference on Shellfish Restoration. This lively episode reveals how Dot’s tireless efforts have led to the development of sustainable marine management practices and the global recognition of oysters' vital ecological role and the risks facing it. It also emphasizes the importance of face-to-face collaboration, community involvement, and educating younger generations in marine science. Dot’s legacy, influence and contributions to oyster and shellfish restoration cannot be understated - she has done everything, knows everyone and has been everywhere in this watery oyster world. And she’s here to talk all about it.

00:00 Environmental Concerns: Then and Now

00:31 Introducing Dorothy Leonard: The Queen of Oyster Restoration

04:40 Dorothy's Early Life and Passion for Marine Environments

07:46 From Political Science to Marine Conservation

10:09 Challenges and Triumphs in Coastal Management

15:36 The Birth of Shellfish Restoration

19:09 Oyster Restoration in Maryland

27:04 Innovative Approaches to Oyster Restoration

33:03 Oyster Gardening in Maryland

34:26 Personal Experiences with Oyster Gardening

35:58 Challenges and Coexistence in Shellfish Restoration

38:33 Aquaculture vs. Traditional Watermen

41:07 NIMBY and Aquaculture Challenges

43:10 International Shellfish Restoration Efforts

56:13 The Role of Education in Shellfish Restoration

01:00:45 Environmental Legislation and Coastal Management

01:07:24 Future of Aquaculture and Shellfish Restoration

01:08:49 Final Thoughts and Legacy

Links:
The International Conference on Shellfish Restoration - ICSR2024 (https://www.icsr2024.com/)

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Transcript

Episode 5: Dot Leonard, Icon of Oyster Restoration

[00:00:00] 

Dot Leonard: If you go back to the 1970's, we were all very worried about the environment and we were out there marching and picketing and doing all kinds of stuff., And now if you see your political surveys That's the bottom of the list all the time. I don't see a lot about the environment and yet Look at sea level rise Look at global warming. I mean To me we should be in a bloody panic Like we were in the 70s And i'm not seeing it I'm very worried about that.

Kevin: Welcome to OYSTER-ology, a podcast about oysters aquaculture and everything from spat to shuck. I'm your host, Kevin Cox. It's hard to summarize the remarkable career and influence that might guest Dorothy Leonard has had in the world of oysters and environmental care of coastal marine environments. She is the queen of oyster and shellfish restoration. Seriously, all of those restoration projects we hear about, see the bays, read about in the papers, [00:01:00] she is the person who started it all. For more than five decades Dot has stood as a beacon of marine stewardship in aquaculture fisheries management and coastal restoration. When you think about the magnitude of her impact globally, it's truly incredible. Her legendary career in marine conservation has reshaped coastal waters in shellfish industries and her leadership in oyster revitalization with NOAA National marine Fisheries and in Maryland has improved both the Chesapeake Bay's ecosystem and the livelihoods of local watermen everywhere. As the founder of the Ocean Equities organization Dot's work on oyster restoration has helped revitalize. marine ecosystems around the world. Her unrelenting commitment to marine public health and water quality has forged sustainable environmental practices and cemented her as a leader in the management of coastal environments for generations to come. And her expertise has reached international audiences too through her founding of [00:02:00] the prestigious International Conference on Shellfish Restoration. Dot's legacy of environmental stewardship and leadership has left an indelible mark on global and local marine conservation efforts. And now we here at OYSTER-ology get to talk about the birth of shellfish restoration; oyster gardening; the art of sinking boats to grow oysters; skinning, eels and oyster landscape architecture; oyster challenges around the world; battling oyster diseases; old school versus new school oyster farming; the challenges of being an oyster farmer today; and so much more with my esteemed guests and pioneer in all things oyster, the incredibly youthful and tirelessly energetic Dot Leonard.

Hi Dot, Thank you so much for being here on OYSTER-ology with me today. It's not just exciting and a little intimidating. It's an absolute honor to have you here. You are the Grand Master.  

Dot Leonard: I'm delighted to be here. [00:03:00] Absolutely. 

Kevin: When I hear people talk about you, everybody knows you, everybody respects you and talks like you're the Queen of this oyster world, and therefore I think the Queen of OYSTER-ology. You know everybody, you've done everything, you've been everywhere, and you've been doing it for a long time.

Dot Leonard: Well that's part of it, Kevin, I mean. If you've been doing it as many years as I have, in as many places as I've been, what happens is you get to know a lot of wonderful people. People in the shellfish world are just marvelous to work with. They're just wonderful people. 

Kevin: are you willing to tell our listeners how old 

Dot Leonard: you are? Sure, I'm 91 years old. 

Kevin: That is clearly a math error. It's off by minimum 20 years.  

Dot Leonard: I'm just very fortunate. I mean, I think a lot of it is my passion for working in this field because [00:04:00] Every day I get up and I look forward to an exchange with somebody, whether email or Zoom or, but always in the Oyster world.

So it's, it keeps me going. It really does. And I, I would recommend to anybody, don't ever just retire. Do something you really care about, because it'll keep you getting up in the morning. And facing the day with real optimism. 

Kevin: And you're doing important things, too, and I'm sure that that feeds into a lot of that energy, right?

Oh, 

Dot Leonard: I, I feel that the day that I leave this world, I will have accomplished something, even a small bit, in, in making the world a better place. Wow. 

Kevin: Well, tell me a little bit about your background and your story.

Dot Leonard: Well, I think that all of this began when I was a child. My dad loved the marine environment, and he loved being in the water and swimming. In fact, he was one of those people that could float on his back and fall asleep, and [00:05:00] we'd have to chase him down the river because he'd just be sleeping away and floating.

But, um, he taught me how to fish, and I gained this interest in, um, crabbing, for instance. He bought me a lovely little rowboat, which I immediately sunk and used as a shedding bin. And then I would sell my softshell crabs. 

Kevin: So you sunk it on purpose? 

Dot Leonard: I sunk it on purpose, yeah. And of course you can get a lot more money for a soft crab than you can a hard crab. So that was how I earned money. That and cleaning eels for the men. I had that down pat because my dad taught me. So I was very comfortable in the marine environment. And I think That probably drove me, in my later years, into this field. 

Kevin: Tell me how you clean the eels. 

Dot Leonard: Well, what you do is you, you rub your hands in sand, and you grab a hold of the eel right behind the giggles, and then you, you take a knife and you whack it off, and leave just a little [00:06:00] skin slit down the belly, clean it out, and then you, you put your thumb in, you grab the skin and pull toward the tail, it comes right off.

They're very clean. 

And then you eat them. They're so tasty. Oh, I love eels unagi is just my favorite thing in the world to eat. I can eat it, you know, three times in a meal and not be sated. 

Kevin: so you. You got your own peelers out of your sunken boat.

Right. You skinned eels. 

Dot Leonard: Yep. And of course went fishing, and we ate fish constantly. Because it was, that was, during World War II. And we were right on the coast, so there was a lot of war activity going on, and we couldn't get meat, and we couldn't get all kinds of things that were rationed. So we ate fish probably six, seven times a week in order to survive. 

Kevin: What kind of fish usually would you eat? 

Dot Leonard: Down there it was bluefish and flounder mostly. 

Kevin: Okay, you say down there. Where was that again? 

Dot Leonard: Down, down there [00:07:00] was on the Metideconk River. Off of Barnegat Bay in New Jersey. 

Kevin: Right on the edge of the Pine Barrens in New Jersey.

Yeah! Right? Yeah, I went 

Dot Leonard: to school with a bunch of pineys. That's what we call them. Stumpjumpers or pineys is what we call 

Kevin: them. Stumpjumpers, I love it. Yeah. Okay, so 

you were always on the water. 

Dot Leonard: Always. Morning, noon, night. they'd have to drag me out of the water, basically.

Kevin: you mentioned earlier that you were a bit of a tomboy in that way back, back when you were a 

Dot Leonard: student. I was. Yeah, absolutely. Tall, gangly tomboy, and, uh, loved being outside, and particularly on the waters, I said. Loved sailing. I used to race Lightnings. 

Kevin: So that was 

Dot Leonard: another passion.

 it was a great childhood, truly was. 

Kevin: And from there, where did you go? 

Dot Leonard: I went to Syracuse University and majored in political science. Focus mostly on Latin America. I don't know what I thought I was going to do. There was wanting to be in the foreign service, [00:08:00] but in those days we all, for some reason or another thought we should find a husband in college, I guess, and get married and have kids and all that good stuff, which is what I did for a while.

Kevin: What years were these 

Dot Leonard: college graduation would be 54. So I was married in. 54, and I think started having children about 57, 58. 

Kevin: I 

And here you are today.

I 

Dot Leonard: know, I know, I know. It's, everybody says, well, you majored in marine biology, and I say, no, I didn't. I majored in political science. And they can't understand that it comes in very handy. It's really a great background for the field. Okay. 

Kevin: What makes it a great background for the field, in your view?

Dot Leonard: Because you have to learn to work with people, and you have to work with different segments. You know, whether we're talking commercial, recreational, or in my case, restoration people. 

They all have different ideas. Somehow you've got to make it all work together. So, that's political science. 

Kevin: So, let's talk [00:09:00] briefly about your family background.

So, you got married in 54, 55, and, you started a family, right? Yeah, 

Dot Leonard: I had four children, and, times were tough. We often talk about it now, how just trying to put food on the table for four kids, four big, hungry kids, five, including my husband, was a challenge, and it kept me busy for Quite a few years. And then frankly, I got bored. I 

wasn't enough of a challenge intellectually. So I joined the League of Women Voters and they were very interested at the time in planning and zoning and somehow or another, I got lucky enough to do these planning seminars all throughout the state of New York.

And I worked with the two top zoning lawyers in New York, and the top planner in New York. And so I learned the business, um, probably better than any course I could take. In fact, they told me, whatever you [00:10:00] do, do not go to the university and take a course in planning. It will ruin you. So, I didn't do that.

So I got a job as a land use planner. And my assignment was coastal zone management. Because of course again, it's the water that I care about. 

Kevin: So were you able to steer into that direction when you got involved in land use planning or was that just accidental? 

Dot Leonard: Well, it took a bit because even though I had learned all these things nobody was hiring at the time.

So I was hired as an unemployable person. So there was a program the government had called CETA program And you made $10, 000 a year and you were like a free, uh, staff person for whoever wanted you. I mean, that was kind of tough, but I was lucky because I got a position with the county planning department.

And as I said, they put me in coastal management, which I loved. [00:11:00] And particularly because I could take a sailboat out and make believe I was doing surveys. 

Kevin: Another tough day at the office. Another 

Dot Leonard: tough day at the office. 

Kevin: what is land use planning for coastal management? 

Dot Leonard: Well, you're looking at your land water interface mostly. So you take a look at the things that are, that are water dependent, the industries that are water dependent, that have to have a coastal location. Versus, say, residential development, and you want to encourage parks or set aside land because you want to reduce the pollution from the land that goes into the water.

it's a big program in the United States. It became a big program in the United States, and all the states signed on eventually to it. So I moved from the county level to the state of New York level. And there I was responsible for all their public hearings and their public meetings. And from there I moved to NOAA so I could go to the federal level.

Kevin: so when you [00:12:00] left New York state for NOAA, was it doing the same kind of work? It was the 

Dot Leonard: same work. It was coastal management when I started. But, they were not particularly well funded. So we were temporary employees. 

And you only have so many slots in the government to fill.

So they laid me off. And when the director of fisheries in NOAA heard about it, he hired me. So I became part of, National marine Fisheries Service.

So if you take a look at the whole thing and you say, why weren't you a marine biologist? You can see that I came to that point, but a very different route than most people. 

Kevin: when you went to National Marine Fisheries, did your role change 

Dot Leonard: Yeah, it did change quite a bit.

They had me doing recreational fishing development in urban areas for a while. That was very interesting. And then I moved from that into doing seminars with commercial fishermen.

What 

Kevin: kind of things were you doing seminars over? Mostly 

Dot Leonard: it [00:13:00] was fisheries management issues, where the fishermen felt that the government was, not listening to them and not responding to their needs.

 So my role was to go out and listen to them and bring back that information to the government. 

Kevin: Do you think that the fishermen were right? 

Dot Leonard: Yes. 

they knew a lot more about what was going on than the fishery scientists that were making the decisions.

Kevin: and where did you go from there? Well 

Dot Leonard: that was kind of weird because all of a sudden this project came along uh, which was called the National Register of Shellfish Growing Areas. Long title. And it was being done by Food and Drug Administration. And the man was retiring, who had been doing it from 1966. So this was 1985. And somehow or another he approached me and said, Would you be interested in learning how to do this project? And I was lucky enough that my boss said, Well, yeah, let's join FDA and see if we can do this. 

 so I started doing that project [00:14:00] and continued it, doing it five year intervals.

 I was looking at over 5, 000 growing areas. In 23 states. 

Kevin: what is the registry and what was the objective of that whole project? 

Dot Leonard: Well, it was really based a lot on water quality because at the time we were seeing a real decline in water quality in coastal areas.

So it all kind of relates back. So you're looking at coastal management, you're looking at a decline in water quality. 

Dot Leonard: One way of looking at it is whether a shellfish area. is approved for harvest or not. And if it's not approved, what are the pollution sources that are keeping it from being approved? So what the register did, it looked at all these approved versus unapproved areas and it looked at all the pollution sources that contributed, listed those, looked at the resource clams, oysters, whatever, whether or not that was declining. And then it looked also at each one of the state's management [00:15:00] regimes.

In other words, which agencies, what kind of budget, what kind of staff. And, and it laid it all out in a report. And the thing was you could see the trends very clearly that we were losing growing areas because of water quality issues. 

Dot Leonard: And we were losing resource as well. So. By the time we did that, thinking 1995's report, we decided that the important part was restoration.

That somehow or another we had to clean up the water quality and we also had to increase the resource. So that began shellfish restoration as we know it now. 

Kevin: So that was the birth of shellfish research. And your report, it sounds like a very complicated matrix that you had to put together.

It was 

Dot Leonard: a big database, of information. But, when you could see, I mean, you would not be able to see in one year what was going on, but it was the trends analysis that was really critical. 

Kevin: Is that [00:16:00] registry still being managed today? 

Dot Leonard: No. No, they gave it up when I left in 95. 

Kevin: did something replace it? Like, how are, is anybody watching that anymore? 

Dot Leonard: Well, there's an interstate shellfish sanitation conference that looks at the management of Shellfish 

and 

Dot Leonard: looking at it from a water quality viewpoint They have done a kind of an abbreviated report A few times since but it doesn't have the breadth 

Kevin: And does it have governmental involvement or is it?

No, not 

Dot Leonard: really. It's just done by the issc 

Kevin: Why do you think that that didn't continue after you left 

Dot Leonard: a lot of resources to do it think about You know traveling to 23 states. 

Dot Leonard: and maybe a staff of six to eight people 

Right. 

Dot Leonard: I actually had to draw on nautical charts, every one of those shellfish growing areas.

It's 5, 000 shellfish areas. And then it was all digitized and put in a [00:17:00] GIS database. So a lot of resources. 

Kevin: . Huge job. 

Dot Leonard: Yeah. 

Kevin: And that began the realization of the need for shellfish restoration. 

Dot Leonard: Yes, because it became very obvious when you looked at the trends analysis that we were certainly going in the wrong direction and we had to do a few things to, to reverse that trend.

Kevin: Do you think that any of that related back to, the historical reduction of shellfish grounds and the removal of shellfish. I mean, 200 years ago, ships were running aground because there were so many shellfish reefs everywhere. 

Dot Leonard: They used to say John Smith could walk across Chesapeake Bay on them.

 On the oysters. There were so many of them. But at the turn of the century, things started to decline. I mean, everybody's heard the story of Chesapeake Bay, I'm sure, but it was a combination of factors. it definitely was over harvest, 

was water quality issues because a lot of the areas became, closed and couldn't [00:18:00] be harvested.

I, I chalk a lot of it off to greed, 

 I mean, 

Dot Leonard: we really reduced the population to a point where it was not sustainable and then disease hit. Dermo and MSX came in and basically wiped out almost all of the oysters. So over 90 percent of the oysters were wiped out. 

Kevin: So what we hadn't already taken away from over harvesting, the diseases then almost finished off.

Disease decimated them, 

Dot Leonard: yeah. 

Kevin: So when you started doing this whole shellfish registry, we were already in a dire situation. 

Dot Leonard: Oh, we definitely were. Yeah. 

Kevin: Yeah, 

Dot Leonard: I mean because the decline had started at the turn of the century and then I would say really accelerated around the 50s I mean at that point we were seeing you know Population at a level that could not sustain itself, so that the disease coming along was just like the death knell. 

Kevin: So in 95 when the importance [00:19:00] and need for shellfish restoration was really just being recognized. Yeah. what did you do? 

Dot Leonard: Well, this was kind of a crazy turn of events. So in 95,

 when we were supposed to write the report, I was then requested by the governor of Maryland through the secretary of DNR to come to Maryland. Natural resources and the initial reason was so that I could jumpstart restoration at Chesapeake Bay 

Kevin: and they saw that need because of the work you had done with the registry 

Dot Leonard: Yeah, I think they there were a few people who had knowledge of the register and knew what was going on with the register and figured Well, you know, we'll, we'll get a hold of Dot and see if she can do something here. But the interesting thing was it was at a time when in DNR they had combined tidal and freshwater fisheries.

And the Director of Freshwater and the Director of Tidal, they both wanted to be the director of the new fishery service. So what does the [00:20:00] Secretary of DNR do? He puts me in that position. So, of course, I was Not appreciated.

We'll put it that way. I did. I pissed them both off. One became a friend. The other never did. So I was here two years at DNR in Maryland. 

Kevin: And so at DNR, Was this a newly created role? It was a 

Dot Leonard: brand new role because you were combining all the fisheries.

And so I guess the most important thing to me was to understand who I had as a resource. And, you know, and a budget. So it was a twelve million dollar budget. 

And it was a, an enormous staff. 

I think it was about a hundred and eighty people. And we had four hatcheries, and we had facilities all over the state.

So, obviously I didn't know anything about any of this. So the idea was to find, the very best leaders in, in my group. So on like a Thursday, I told everybody they were going on retreat over the weekend. [00:21:00] These were the people who were directors and assistant directors and those levels. And I gave them all an assignment to solve a problem.

And one of them was introduction of wolves into Yellowstone. So they were totally unrelated. to fisheries, but they were problem solving. And I told them that they had to make the presentations on Sunday morning at this retreat. And I'll tell you, there were some amazing reports. 

and it became very clear who the leaders were in DNR. And I moved those people into positions of authority because they obviously had, you know, the creative ability and, and, um, the leadership that was needed. So again, there were some people who were not happy with me for sure. 

Kevin: So you just knew that as a leader yourself to find the right kind of people, you needed to get creative so you could really see how they work.

Dot Leonard: Again, that's [00:22:00] where political science comes into a certain degree. I mean, you don't, your approach might not be like, the marine scientist next door. It's based in your training in political science as much as anything. So that, got me through the, the first few months, but then they had closed, they had a moratorium on striped bass, 

which 

Dot Leonard: is a very controversial issue up and down the Atlantic coast.

And so they, they said, okay, it's, it's, you know, recovered enough. We're going to open up the striped bass fishery. Well, from Maine to Florida, everybody went crazy and you know, I want this much and I want that much and so much for recreational, so much for commercial. And it became an all out battle. So I, again, I did a retreat and I took commercial fishermen and charter boat captains and recreational fishermen out with my staff for a weekend.

And put them through a whole bunch of, exercises that bring [00:23:00] groups together. 

And 

Dot Leonard: at the end of it, I said, okay, now we're going to establish the allocations. And, and we did something that's called a Cornell approach. But anyway, it's an approach where you prioritize. Certain things and you go up on the board And when it's done, it's done and it's the allocation so when we went to public hearing I got up and gave the allocation and said No point in getting up and arguing about it because you are the guys who decided it 

Kevin: Did it come together fairly naturally 

Dot Leonard: it did it was amazing and they still do it the same way They have a striped bass committee that does this now every year 

Kevin: That's remarkable.

Dot Leonard: Yeah. 

Kevin: And to get people to agree on that, especially something like striped bass, which is even today still controversial. Oh, 

Dot Leonard: it is. Cause we're going through another period where the population is dropping in. 

Kevin: is that what we do? The population drops. We recognize it. We say, okay, this is bad. We need to put a moratorium in place or [00:24:00] something else restrictions until it grows just enough so that then we can. Wear it down all over again and keep doing the same mistake. 

Dot Leonard: You know, you're not in control. Nature's in control 

Dot Leonard: we think we're controlling the world and we're controlling all these resources and we're really not.

So, I mean, we talk about weather and, and what kind of forage they have. And, and now we have global warming, which is changing where the populations go and where they're spawning has changed. So. There's a lot of difficult decisions. most of it is made by Atlantic States marine Fisheries Commission. So all the states get together and there are three commissioners from each state.

I served as a commissioner from Maryland. And what you do is, is based on some technical staff that brings in all the numbers, you sit down and you work out what the allocation is from Maine to Florida for the next year. And then you go home to your state. And then you fight it out between the [00:25:00] commercial, the charter, and the recreational.

Yep. Political science. 

Kevin: And human resources. And 

Dot Leonard: human resources. 

Kevin: I mean, you're not just a poli sci expert, you're an HR expert as well. Yeah. Organizational development. Isn't that interesting? Talent. 

Dot Leonard: Yeah, I don't know where, it comes from. Sometimes I think it's raising kids. 

Kevin: Yeah, four kids.

Yeah. There's a challenge. There's an organization in and of itself that you need to manage. I think 

Dot Leonard: you kind of learn it that way. 

Kevin: okay. So you did that for a couple of years. And in, in doing that,some of those people were actually operating hatcheries to grow 

Trout, mostly trout. Oh, okay, so it was trout and bass, so fin fish. 

Dot Leonard: Yeah, for recreational use. 

Kevin: so they would grow them and then release them into And stock them in 

Dot Leonard: ponds, and then I see. And the best thing was when they would have these little Fishing derbies at these ponds and these little kids, you know, three, four, five years old, it would be their first fishing experience.

And it was just, that was such a joy to do. The 

Kevin: magic that you [00:26:00] see in a child when they catch their first 

Dot Leonard: fish, just makes everything worthwhile. 

Kevin: And, after you left, where did you go? Well, 

Dot Leonard: I had to go back to NOAA because I was only on a detail. 

And toward the end of the detail, the commercial fishermen fought to get me out of that position and they put me back in as director of just shellfish.

 is that because they didn't like some of 

Kevin: the allocation recommendations? She's taking too much out of our pockets. So we got 

Dot Leonard: to accept. And I have to tell you that one of my best friends was Larry Sims, who was the chairman of the Waterman's Association, a nicer guy, wonderful, socially we got along just great.

But oh boy, when it came to allocations, we did not agree. So 

Kevin: So you, you can have Personal relationships and professional relationships that may be diametrically opposed. Well, they 

Dot Leonard: can be, and you can still be friends. Right. I mean, you can agree to disagree. 

Kevin: [00:27:00] so, they said, alright, get her away from our finfish. She's out of here. Give her some shellfish to deal with and tell me about that. 

Dot Leonard: So, my real role. in coming to Maryland was to jumpstart, oyster restoration. And it was really challenging because we didn't have a hatchery. We didn't have any real expertise at the time. I don't know of anybody that was doing any kind of shellfish restoration anywhere. So, I hired one guy from Australia and one guy from New Zealand, and then I got Virginica, which is our local native oyster. I got that eyed larvae from a hatchery out on the west coast, which normally you figure only has gigas.

But they, they happen to have a small broodstock of virginica. And so they sent us eyed larvae, and we set it at Piney Point. It used to be an old eel facility, and we retrofitted it into a [00:28:00] nursery for, Oysters. 

Kevin: And where's Piney Point? 

Dot Leonard: Piney Point is down the western shore 

Of the Chesapeake.

And there was a very small facility on Deal Island which is the Eastern Shore. 

Kevin: 

Dot Leonard: And, we didn't know what we were doing, but we, 

Kevin: how did you know to like. Let's build a hatchery. Okay. Now what do we do? Anybody got any ideas? 

Dot Leonard: And then we thought, well, now what do we do with them? You know, it's time to get them out into the water. And so we tried a number of different methods. None of them were great. Because the problem was that the bay was so silted in, in so many spots, that where were you going to put these?

I mean, we had set them on shell. We had A minimal number of them, and we tried suspending them, and the lines broke. We did all kinds of things that, trying to, to get to that point, but the, the good things we did do is, we did help the University of Maryland at Horn Point start their very successful hatchery.

I mean, they've come so far, they've done a marvelous [00:29:00] job, and we started the Oyster Recovery Partnership. And it was just getting off the ground. And I put money into that and money into horn point. And they both nowadays are just marvelous. They're doing great things, but it's taken this long. 

Kevin: What does the Oyster Recovery Project do?

Dot Leonard: The oyster recovery partnership or partnerships. They go out and they plant all these areas that are being restored. So they actually take the boat out and do the actual restoration. They also collect all the shells. 

Dot Leonard: So they are, they're critical to what happens here. And they were formed under the Maryland Watermen's Association, which is kind of interesting. Because politically you would think that somebody who's restoring oysters would be diametrically opposed to what the commercial guys want. Well, they sort of are. But somehow in Maryland it all works. with difficulty. So you've got the commercial [00:30:00] interests, you've got the aquaculture interests, and then you have the restoration interests. And for a while, we only had Horn Point as a hatchery, so they were trying to please everybody, which was impossible. 

Kevin: So a third, a third, a third, more or less. Yeah, more or less. 

Dot Leonard: And so now we've got some other hatcheries, and Horn Point is able to do some of the commercial, And all of the restoration.

Kevin: who determines what allocation goes to those three groups? 

Dot Leonard: It's, it's done by a, an Oyster Alliance group that, so in Maryland, there are a number of organizations involved in oyster restoration, but the Alliance kind of brings them all together where they make some decisions.

Otherwise, you'd have everybody fighting over 

their allocations 

Dot Leonard: or or what they're going to get and it doesn't always work. I mean, I have to admit that on the surface, it looks like it's working, [00:31:00] but there are issues and there will always be some issues. I mean, the commercial guys feel that by setting aside an area for restoration and closing it to commercial harvest.

That you've done them wrong because you've picked the best areas and etc, etc. So they're not happy. 

Kevin: so it's not just a matter of how many oysters you're putting down. It's the areas also. 

Dot Leonard: Oh yeah, definitely. And some 

Kevin: are more favorable I would assume to 

Dot Leonard: Well, because if you've had an existing reef, or historically a reef, 

Kevin: you have a 

Dot Leonard: much better chance of success.

If you 

Dot Leonard: go into some of the silt, you So now we're talking about, there's not enough shell. There's not enough shell for restoration anywhere. So we're using alternative substrates. 

Limestone. And so I'm working on a project using recycled concrete. And the reason for the recycled concrete is because the CO2 is already embedded. in that concrete. So you're not creating more CO2 [00:32:00] emissions, which you do when you make concrete. 

Kevin: And so the concrete that you put down in this instance is what the spat will attach to and then grow. And it 

Dot Leonard: works particularly well with, um, like bridge 

Kevin: abutments, 

Dot Leonard: because they were already seasoned.

In other words, they've got that, Which you might call slime and that attracts the the oysters to set so it works very well 

Kevin: so then you have the organizations that come together they determine How much shell each of these three kind of camps get and the areas where they'll be used?

Mm hmm 

Right. 

Kevin: Some areas will be closed for restoration. Others will be closed to commercial fishermen for recreational shellfishing, right? 

Dot Leonard: Well, there isn't very much of that. we don't have people going out gathering here, like they do in New England, for instance. We just don't, don't have that.

Kevin: so much of the Chesapeake area is so shallow 

 it would seem to me that it would [00:33:00] be a great place for recreational harvesting. 

Problem is that you do not want to put oysters in an area that's not approved and allow people to come in and harvest those because they would become ill or could become ill. 

Dot Leonard: So there's a lot of control on recreational harvesting for that reason. So there's oyster gardening is the thing that comes closest to it. So there's a big oyster gardening effort in Maryland. 

Kevin: So what is oyster gardening? 

Dot Leonard: So what you do is you get these metal cages from Maryland DNR and they have them set. with miniscule, tiny little oysters. And people love them. I mean, they have these cages, and they put them off their docks, and they have to tend them for a year.

In other words, they have to, either shake them up and down, or power wash them, or keep them clean. [00:34:00] And then at the end of the year, they're moved out onto a reef. So all the rivers around here have, river keepers, and they also have oyster gardening going on. 

Kevin: So it's a real government sponsored, grassroots kind of thing where individuals are doing it.

Yeah, 

Dot Leonard: Chesapeake Bay Foundation NGO also does it. But I'm more familiar with the DNR aspect of it. I've, I've done it myself. 

Kevin: And how'd that go for you? 

Dot Leonard: Well, I'll tell you one thing, they get very heavy. 

Kevin: You 

Dot Leonard: know, you have all that fouling on it. The oysters are growing and the fouling is on the shell and something that weighed maybe 20 pounds now weighs 40 pounds.

So yeah. 

Kevin: and you're responsible for cleaning the fouling off it so that the oysters continue to live. And that's a lot of responsibility. 

Dot Leonard: Yeah. I'm trying to think how many. I don't have the number, but my guess is there's got to be maybe 1, 500 or [00:35:00] more. 

Kevin: 

Dot Leonard: Going on, right now. 

 it's educational. Yeah. It gets people excited about protecting the Bay. And understanding a lot more about, not only oysters, but, How oysters clean the water, you know, we go through this whole educational process with people. So 

Kevin: it's 

Dot Leonard: It's got a lot of good aspects to it 

Kevin: I know in Virginia.

They have an oyster gardening program, too 

Kevin: but I didn't know how it worked So that's very interesting and were you instrumental in when you were working there in developing that program? 

Dot Leonard: No, I I don't remember exactly where that came from, where the idea came from, in fact.

But it caught on very quickly. And, and people just love to get involved in something like that, so. And then what happened after that is, you know, to try to manage that, um, these river keepers or individual river associations manage it. 

Kevin: how would you [00:36:00] describe the relationships today here in Maryland, between the, aquaculturists is doing modern shellfish growing versus the government's effort to promote shellfish restoration and the commercial fishermen's need to have bottom that they can work.

are they continuing to coexist in a, in a good way? Is it working? 

Dot Leonard: I think it is. 

 I'm a great proponent of having everyone involved and making sure that we do protect the commercial watermen. I mean, that is a tradition here in Maryland. I mean, they're, they're watermen families for generations and that's all they know.

Dot Leonard: So to take that away from them just seems very short sighted. 

Kevin: Is that a big population? the local Waterman? 

Dot Leonard: Oh yeah. every County has, a Waterman's association and, um, it's interesting, my next door [00:37:00] neighbor is a Waterman. 

So when he found out who I was, I really profit from it.

I get, crabs all the time. 

Kevin: 

Dot Leonard: He hates soft shells. So whenever he sees a peeler come in, he puts it in a separate bucket in the boat that he's in and he brings it home to me. 

Kevin: Oh, that's great. That is a perk of having that neighbor. do you think that we will ever. get back toward the kind of shellfish population levels that used to exist in the Chesapeake.

Not a chance. 

Dot Leonard: I mean, people use, when they use the word restore, in a way, that's unfair, because we really can't restore. So, there, there are probably other words that would work better. I mean, what we're trying to do is, Mm hmm. is restore the ecosystem to a certain level.

Because you do need the oysters in the ecosystem to make it work. To keep the bay healthy. But to ever get to a point that'll really support commercial. I really doubt it. [00:38:00] I don't think they'll ever be at a level. I think the watermen are struggling. the crab population is down. Oysters are way down. So a lot of watermen have left, and the ones that are now still in the business are having a tough time. 

Kevin: And despite all the efforts at restoration and protection and increasing stocks it's still not changing it enough to bring back a more profitable existence for watermen or 

Dot Leonard: people in the industry?

I don't believe so, but I do believe aquaculture has a future. Now, the difference between Virginia and Maryland is major. Virginia has done an excellent job of expediting the permitting process and really getting people involved in terms of aquaculture and raising fantastic oysters. Maryland has been much more resistant to doing it, partially because the commercial watermen have a lot of political power. [00:39:00] They're small in number, but politically quite powerful. 

Kevin: But isn't aquaculture and the interests of the watermen almost the same? What is the difference? No, because they're 

Dot Leonard: competing for the same market, supposedly. 

Kevin: But the watermen are competing to produce oysters in their traditional way for sale in the marketplace.

Yeah. And aquaculturists. Are also doing that. Yes. And is it because the techniques are so different that they see them differently? 

Dot Leonard: I don't think it's that the techniques are different that they it's the same market 

Kevin: 

Dot Leonard: or a similar market so What's happening is the commercial guys are saying? Oh, we were doing great until those Aquaculture guys came along and took away our markets You 

Kevin: And the watermen were doing great by applying traditional techniques like dredging bottom Whereas aquaculturists are coming using the same [00:40:00] water areas, different 

Dot Leonard: areas.

 that's what the problem with the commercial is saying, well, you're taking away some of our potential areas by allowing these leases. 

And, you know, and then there's always the argument, well, if you're going to give out leases, give them to the grounds that aren't very good for growing oysters.

Well, then what you do is you can't do bottom culture, you have to do suspended culture. And in Maryland, it's much more difficult to get a suspended cultural license than a bottom cultural license. 

Kevin: Counterintuitive, 

Dot Leonard: totally. 

 I don't know why the permitting is such, except that. Um, I did a project up in South Hampton with some other people and here we were in South Hampton, all these gorgeous, expensive waterfront homes. Um, And the local trustees wanted to start an aquaculture project.

They wanted to grow oysters. so they hired us to assess the potential for growing oysters in a situation like that. [00:41:00] And it's their, there's a term, viewscape. Yeah, 

Kevin: viewscape. 

Dot Leonard: Viewscape. So the problem there and the problem everywhere is that waterfront owners don't know. Do not want to see suspended culture off the front of their properties.

Kevin: So this is the whole NIMBY argument. It's the NIMBY argument. Not In My Backyard. 

Dot Leonard: That and boaters. Because the boaters don't want to see floating culture in the way. Whereas if it's on the bottom, they don't even notice it. 

Kevin: 

Dot Leonard: so out 

Kevin: of sight out of mind is the thing there. 

Dot Leonard: If I can't 

Kevin: see it, it's fine, but if it's destroying my pristine view, 

Dot Leonard: then I don't want it.

Kevin: Then I don't want it. 

Dot Leonard: Yeah. So what we did in Southampton is we, we did a, like a winter summer thing. So in the wintertime when there was no boating and people were in Florida at their homes in Palm Beach, they were growing oysters near the shore. [00:42:00] But there were a couple of little islands. out in the bay that we were working with, Shinnecock Bay.

And we could, in the summer, move those oysters out behind those islands. 

Kevin: So they wouldn't see them? They 

Dot Leonard: wouldn't see them, and the boaters, it wouldn't be in the way of the boaters. So that was our solution to the NIMBY problem. 

Kevin: And 

Dot Leonard: apparently it worked, so there are some people growing oysters in Shinnecock, but 

Same problem here. Everywhere. 

Kevin: 

Dot Leonard: It's that NIMBY attitude. 

Kevin: Everybody wants the pristine, beautiful, waterfront view. Right. I know that's an issue out in the Pacific Northwest, not just with shellfish, but also with, sugar kelp in the small emerging kelp market. You know. Yeah. Despite that the kelp are suspended under the water so you don't see them, the floats marking the suspended lines are becoming a, position of concern.

Even 

Dot Leonard: if you, like, sometimes when you're growing oysters you do the same thing. All you see are those floats. 

Kevin: Right. 

Dot Leonard: But they still don't like that, [00:43:00] so. 

Kevin: But they don't mind the mooring balls for the sailboats. 

Dot Leonard: Yes, exactly. They 

Kevin: look pretty much the same to my eye. They are 

Dot Leonard: the same. I know, it's crazy.

Kevin: have you been involved in the Billion Oyster Project? 

Dot Leonard: I know those people, like Pete Malinowski. And, he's done a fantastic job. Education wise, they have been superb. I don't know about frankly how successful in restoring populations they have been. I think it's more success with the education aspect of it.

They've raised money like nobody's business. They've done a great job. And the students that he's got are wonderful. So one of our ICSR meetings, we had, six students come down to ICSR in Charleston.

Those kids, their presentations were just spot on. 

Kevin: what does ICSR mean? 

Dot Leonard: International Conference on Shellfish Restoration.

Kevin: And [00:44:00] this is largely a creation of yours. Is that right? 

Dot Leonard: Yeah. In 1996, we were looking at the register and saying, we really need to do restoration. How do we get the word out? Maybe we should have a conference. So I approached the Sea Grant Director in South Carolina, Rick DeVoe, and he said, I don't know, he was kind of skeptical, and we kicked it around a little bit, and that was about 1997.

We held the first one in Hilton Head in 1998, and we brought in international speakers. So we were trying to create. an international group, a communication where people would form teams, do research together, and it has really paid off big time. I mean, we've got it going on in Australia, New Zealand, we've got it all over Europe, Ireland, Scotland.

Part of the global brain trust of shellfish restoration. 

Kevin: And you have it every two years currently. 

Dot Leonard: we would hold it on even years. Odd years it went to other [00:45:00] countries. So we had it in Canada twice. We had it in Ireland, the Netherlands, France, Spain Scotland, Australia.

Kevin: Does this mean to say that other countries, like the ones you've mentioned are as involved with shellfish restoration and recognize the importance of it as much as we do here in the United States. 

Dot Leonard: Well, I could be wrong, but I'd like to take the credit for the fact that it started in Chesapeake Bay.

And that what happened was because we were seeing some success, other countries became interested. They all have different challenges,The Netherlands, for instance, they really need to grow mussels there. That's the big product, but they have an invasive species called gigas, which is ruining their beds.

They're so, I mean, the problems are different, 

Dot Leonard: Ireland. They wanted to go back and get the native oyster growing again. Australia, they're dealing with the native oyster. So, I mean, there are different [00:46:00] issues everywhere, but people recognize the fact that these oysters are so good for water quality, reducing the nitrogen levels 

Kevin: Sequestering carbon. 

Dot Leonard: Oh my god, yeah, they're just, they are just so marvelous when it comes to ecosystem health. So, other countries recognizing that have all jumped on board. 

what's the greatest accomplishment that's come out of these ICSR meetings and gatherings of experts around the world? Friendships. 

Because if you work together as friends, you get so much more accomplished. And we've been able to reach across internationally and help each other. there is such a passion among the people who are working in this field that it just brings them all together.

And that's probably the best product. 

Kevin: it's actually when you come together and share it face to face that you're really spreading this information.

You know, Kevin, 

Dot Leonard: one of the things I really believe in is in communication. The best communication is face to [00:47:00] face. Everything else is a lot less. obviously with zoom and some of the teams and some of the other approaches, we get to kind of see each other, but you don't see the body language. You don't feel the warmth. it's just not the same level. So when you can get together in a meeting and what ICSR, we make sure there are plenty of opportunities to work together, whether it's coffee breaks, lunchtime, 

there's a lot of time for people just to get together. And we found that that works like a charm. 

Kevin: people make their presentations and there's the information out there, but it's not really until you're one on one that you can talk about it and figure out how you can use that information.

Dot Leonard: How 

Kevin: large is the ICSR turnout, generally speaking?

Dot Leonard: we've been as few as 200, and as many as 275. 

Kevin: Do you get much interest from governmental agencies in the information that's being shared?

Sure. 

Dot Leonard: Yeah, we do because [00:48:00] for instance NOAA is a big Supporter and always has been and we generally have input from EPA and DOI Department of Interior This year we've got the Defense Department coming in Because what's happening now is if you're looking at coastal areas The best place to do it is right on military property. So the Defense Department is stepping up now and doing shellfish restoration on their sites, 

Kevin: is there space for for profit organizations being involved in shellfish restoration? 

Dot Leonard: Yes, very much so. This has changed. I mean, when we first started out, it was all 

government. That's 

Dot Leonard: where the money came from and, in many cases, the actual restoration itself.

And then it moved into NGOs. And I'll be very honest. Some NGOs have been really helpful. Others use it as a way of raising funds. But now, there are so many people getting into the business. Engineering firms. Concrete [00:49:00] firms. People forming oyster castles and other things to grow. 

Whereas 10 years ago, there weren't any people in the business because there was no money to be made. Now, there's plenty of money to be made. 

That's restoration. 

Kevin: What about 

the role of, for aquaculture It's best suited for a for profit kind of organization as opposed to a government. No, not anymore. 

Dot Leonard: It's changed. 

up until about three years ago, that would have been valid. But now what happened was, uh, during the pandemic, we ended up in a situation where a lot of aquaculture farms had product and couldn't sell it because there was no way during the pandemic of selling it. So NOAA, and then Pew Charities and TNC all got together and set up a program, the acronym is SOAR, S O A R. And so they paid the aquaculture [00:50:00] farmers for their product and they put it out on restoration sites. 

Kevin: Oh, So the aquaculturists can continue to grow and sell their, product, but the product is being used for restoration.

It's called 

Dot Leonard: restorative 

Kevin: aquaculture. Restorative aquaculture. So if you can't sell it to somebody who's going to eat it, you can sell it to somebody who's going to use it to help restore. 

Dot Leonard: Isn't that fabulous? 

Kevin: It's completely logical.

Dot Leonard: Yeah, 

Kevin: except in the current development of first of all, triploids, 

but 

Kevin: also that are resistant to other diseases and water temperatures 

Like in the case of triploids, which don't reproduce 

Dot Leonard: you don't want to use triploids in that situation. Right. Because you want reproduction. And the more spawning success you have with your restoration areas, the better off you are. And in fact, when you site them, you need to site them in a situation where you're going to get the most from the spawn, which sometimes moves on to commercial areas [00:51:00] too, if you're lucky. 

Triploids grow faster. They're, more susceptible maybe to environmental changes like If you get a sudden heat wave or something like that, I would say they're not as able to survive as your normal shellfish can. 

Kevin: Do you think that triploids are growing though in popularity among aquacultures?

Dot Leonard: I think for a while they were, but I think you're going to see people aquaculturists buying as many diploids as they do triploids now because If you balance your crop, so you've got your triploids that are growing fast, but if you should get a heat wave or disease or something like that, your diploids are going to survive a lot better. So I think farmers are starting to kind of mix their crops a little bit. 

Kevin: You've been very involved in water related diseases like Vibrio, for example, and one of the many companies that you started was using some new technology to kind of control Vibrio. Tell me a little bit [00:52:00] about that. 

Dot Leonard: what happened was we formed an international group, ICMSS. Gosh, I don't know if I can remember what it stands for anymore, but it's a lot of countries involved working on Vibrio and also working on toxins. So those two, two areas, which can be harmful to humans 

with it's very clear if you see over time. As the water has gotten warmer and less saline, Vibrio grows, 

Dot Leonard: So it's moved up the coast. It used to be a problem only in the Gulf States 

Kevin: and the really cold water areas weren't affected by 

Dot Leonard: it, but it's all the way up into Maine.

So obviously, with the warming waters, that threat, has extended now. Whereas the toxins, it's more north and not in the southern water, so you're always dealing with something, but with Vibrios, There's, there's a lot of work out there And one of the things [00:53:00] that we've been trying to do with a group over at, Delaware State is to develop a depuration process.

That would remove Vibrious and it's been challenging. So if you think about during covid, how we were all using air purifiers, 

Using that kind of a system in combination with a water system where a certain kind of bumbling breaks down cells. You combine the two techniques, and ideally, kill the Vibrios. 

Kevin: I read, well, I should say I tried to read a little bit about this. I was going to say, where, where did you find it? what, what I read was that you've helped through your organization, Ocean Equities.

Yeah. Has helped develop, a magneto chemistry treatment. 

Dot Leonard: That's what it is. Yeah. 

Kevin: Changes the surface tension of the water, the 

Dot Leonard: bubbling and 

Kevin: creates nano bubbles, which 

Dot Leonard: break the cell wall, 

Kevin: and Vibrio can't survive. I don't even know where to [00:54:00] start trying to understand that, but it's remarkable.

when I was back in the Pacific Northwest, I spoke with a number of different oyster farms.

And one of the questions was, what are you guys doing with regard to restoration? Andjust managing even your spent shells? And, one of the most common responses was they were shipping shells to the East coast. but isn't there a need on the West coast also, 

Dot Leonard: There isn't as much frustration going on on the West coast by any means as there is on the East coast. 

Kevin: Why do you think that is? 

Dot Leonard: because it's all commercial. Aquaculture is king. 

because you don't have a history that goes very far back at all of commercial production. In other words, wild harvest. Mm hmm. Instead, for ages, it's all been aquaculture there. 

And they've just spread it on the bottom and then on low tide harvested it. 

Kevin: and then spread it again and [00:55:00] just keep doing it 

Dot Leonard: and keep doing it that way. And it sounds more 

Kevin: like traditional land farming, like growing corn, right?

Dot Leonard: But see, it's not the same on the East coast. When you talk to the people in the West coast, they say, oh, it's, it's all about restoring the native oyster. 

Kevin: The Olympia. Yeah. 

Dot Leonard: But beyond that, they don't seem to care. And we've tried like in San Francisco Bay and down around San Diego 

And it just hasn't taken off. 

Kevin: Do we have the patience in this country to allow successful restoration? It's a slow process.

Dot Leonard: Boy, that's a big question. We're not a very patient. 

Kevin: 

Dot Leonard: Country. 

And the problem is with this, there's neither quick results nor profit. So you have to really care about the environment. you know, when we started the conversation, I said, how wonderful the shellfish people are, and it's because they do it because of their passion, their commitment to the environment.

 They don't do it for a quick profit. And even the guys that are in [00:56:00] aquaculture, here on the East Coast particularly, they know what a slog it is to get to a point of even making a profit five, six, seven years before they have a profit. 

Kevin: So how does a young person start? are there opportunities or a forum for young people to kind of catch this bug and see the benefits of this?

Dot Leonard: Yeah. We work really hard at that. National Shell Fisheries Association, NSA really promotes students, but it's at the level of college. So they're really promoting postdocs and grad students and sometimes undergrads. 

Kevin: And then you look at colleges like Evergreen College. 

Dot Leonard: Oh, Evergreen, yeah. 

Kevin: Which has, I've talked to, I don't know how many people, when I've asked them, like, how did you get started in shellfish?

And they all said, oh, I was a member of the Shellfish Club at the Evergreen College. And that's inspired so many different people and then I think about just the East Coast just New [00:57:00] England alone with all the colleges along the waterfronts and the access all the way down the eastern seaboard

you know, they don't 

Dot Leonard: they don't They don't really have courses that attract undergraduates so If you don't catch somebody at the high school age or the undergraduate age, you've probably lost them to law or something like that. So this morning I saw this email from William & Mary College in Virginia talking about setting up an undergraduate program in marine science. And I got so excited because can you believe we don't have in this part of the country, courses in marine science at the undergraduate level. 

it's it's crazy because I know when I get a hold of somebody in their teens, the first thing I do is Start talking up marine science and oyster restoration and all that Get them in the 

Kevin: water get 

Dot Leonard: them in the water and I get them going if I can.

Kevin: 

Dot Leonard: But if we don't have a course for them, 

Dot Leonard: you know, I used to go to elementary schools [00:58:00] with a tank, you know, with dirty water and oysters. 

 and the kids would see that water clean. And then I would pass around an oyster and they touch them and yeah, so that the kids would know what it's all about.

So we need more people doing that as well. 

Kevin: this isn't a ripe opportunity. for whole state educational programs to create a pathway so that when you do find these kids, like you described, when they're young and ripe and eager to learn that they actually have a path to follow.

Dot Leonard: Yeah. because even if you get them excited, when they're 10, 11, 12, when I was excited about the marine environment and they have nowhere to go when they get to college, they end up in poli sci or law. Yeah. 

Kevin: I'm just kind of picking on you a little bit. Yeah. Well, I deserve it, I mean, I'm, I'm late to the party too, so I wish there, there had been a path that I But as 

Dot Leonard: long as you get to the party is the point.

I think 

Kevin: that's right. So now you've been involved in [00:59:00] this for so long and you've done so many different things environmentally in our coastal areas. How have they changed over the years in your observation?

Dot Leonard: You know, I wish that I could be more optimistic than I am. It's one of those things where things get good and then they slide off Mm hmm good and they slide off and I don't know Sometimes our goals maybe change. I mean, if you go back to the 1970's, when we were all very worried about the environment and we were out there marching and picketing and doing all kinds of stuff., and what came of that was a bunch of legislation and all these programs, you know, whether it's EPA or NOAA or any of these. And now I don't see that as much. I mean, we're all worried about global warming. but if you see your political surveys That's the bottom of the list all the time.

 they care about an awful lot of other things mostly economics 

Dot Leonard: but I don't see a lot about the environment and yet look at sea level [01:00:00] rise Look at global warming. I mean To me we should be in a bloody panic Like we were in the 70s And i'm not seeing it I'm very worried about that.

Kevin: I think we're distracted by other things. we've just been through a pandemic. I think everybody was focused on that. And now of course it's political fighting over things like immigration. once again, we have global. Conflict going on. And I think people are distracted, but I also think people are much more focused on profit than they were when we started all this.

Dot Leonard: So if we can say to somebody, look, get in the business of restoration, there's money to be made, 

That might be a good approach to, to get those people who just aren't interested at this point because there is money to be made

Kevin: What do you think are some of the greatest successes that we've had in terms of managing our coastlines over the past 30 or 40 years? 

Dot Leonard: Definitely the legislation that followed the 70s. Because we were [01:01:00] able to set up things like the coastal management program, which I spoke of before And then a lot of good programs at EPA and unfortunately, particularly the EPA programs are being scuttled 

Dot Leonard: and that's what I guess is worrying me as much as anything because we've done a good job of cleaning up We really have in many places like Boston Harbor

prime 

Dot Leonard: example. Of great cleanup efforts there But then again We're now sliding, it seems.

And we've got this major legislation with a lot of money behind it in our infrastructure bill. If we could just get ahold of some of that money to do some of these very important coastal projects, I'd be a lot happier. 

I mean, think about the fact that if everybody up and down the coast was working hard in terms of, I like to use living shorelines as an example. 

Right. 

Dot Leonard: Using living shorelines or natural approaches.

We know we're going to have flooding. We know we're going to lose coastal areas, but we could be doing things [01:02:00] now. Instead of trying to do it after it's already eroded. 

 there, there are some projects around New York City that are really excellent. 

 it's basically. Using oysters in a landscape format. These are landscape architects And the designs are incredible. They're living shorelines that incorporate the oysters along with, nice plantings and walkways and all kinds of stuff, which uses the coastal area that way, instead of building homes. I mean, obviously we're going to lose those homes. What's the point of shoring them up, buying flood insurance, yada, da, yada, da, 

 So it may be a purchase thing that we have to go through where the government will purchase some of those properties and turn them into some of these beautiful living shorelines.

there's a couple of architects out there that have got this dream of doing this and they're working in New Orleans and Manhattan 

 So, I mean, there's, [01:03:00] there's, there are people out there. There is the potential. If we could just. get a bigger mass. 

Kevin: Well speaking of people you've worked with so many people all around the world brilliant , politicians and leaders who are some of the most memorable or impressive people that you've Had the opportunity to work with 

Dot Leonard: You know one of those that comes to mind immediately is Sylvia Earl and not only for the work that she's done on submersibles and the marine environment, but as a person. 

Kevin: Quick sidebar. Sylvia Earl is a renowned marine biologist, oceanographer and environmental advocate known for her pioneering work in ocean exploration and conservation. In 1990 she became the first female, Chief Scientist of NOAA, where she played a key role in assessing the health of marine environments, promoting sustainable. ocean management and emphasizing the dangers of overfishing, pollution and climate change on ocean health. 

She's also a National Geographic Explorer At Large [01:04:00] and has been a key voice in shaping policies and educating well, everyone on the critical state of the world's oceans. She was even featured in the 2021 Netflix original documentary. Seaspiracy. Also, let's be clear: she's a total bad-ass who has led more than a hundred undersea expeditions spending over 7,000 hours under water and setting a World Record for solo diving to a depth of a thousand meters untethered. Today at 89, she continues her advocacy for ocean conservation focusing on protecting ecosystems and raising awareness about the critical role oceans play in sustaining life on earth.

Dot Leonard: As a woman in a man's field, I can tell you it's been a struggle. And many times I've come against a wall that I just couldn't push. And when I was in one of the laboratories within the NOAA system, it was men running everything. So I picked up the phone, talk about nerve, [01:05:00] picked up the phone, called Sylvia Earl, said, Sylvia, I'm having a heck of a time here and told her what the situation, she got on a plane, flew out to the East coast, talked to these women and got them so revved up that they just went and fought their bosses and moved ahead. I mean, to think that she would do that. Somebody as busy and as prominent as she is, but that's somebody who really cares, you know? it's a side of her I've never seen in any of her bios or anything, but she is a great lady. 

Kevin: You've given so many lectures and presentations and people listen to what you have to say, whether they're politicians or industry leaders.

 what would you say is the most important message that you would give to these kinds of people? 

Dot Leonard: We need to bring people together face to face to solve problems, and I don't think we do enough of that I think we're all on our [01:06:00] phones But we need the opportunity in every field right now to be face to face 

Kevin: That's what 

Dot Leonard: we need. cause that's what people are about. Human beings need other human beings. to work with. 

 I mean, nobody goes to their office anymore. Nobody has lunch together anymore. Nobody does, you know, what happened? We lost something very important. Because now we're all selfishly looking at what we want. it's, okay, what can I, instant gratification for me.

Kevin: it's, it's very different now. And, I think we need to get back to a little better communication. Not necessarily going to the office every day. I'm, I'm all for four day work weeks and things like that. I really am. But I do think we need more forums. Even if it's just setting up a meeting of a local community about certain issues. You don't see that very often anymore. So if a young person is starting out trying to make a go of things, and they've got big dreams.

But what kind of advice [01:07:00] would you give them in terms of, How to navigate this oyster world. 

Dot Leonard: try to find someone else just to work with someone who's already been out there, somebody who's battle scarred, and can kind of lead the way for you. Because I think people in our field are very willing to do that.

And for young people, they need to reach out. We're willing. Just give us a call. 

Kevin: one of the things that I hear a lot of big thinking people talk about is that there's an opportunity for shellfish to be kind of a world protein source as 

the answer to the food shortages around the world. So what's your thought on that? 

Dot Leonard: stop and think about what's inside the shell. You eat it all, right? And then the shell can be reused. 

Kevin: It's a hundred percent. 

Dot Leonard: What, what could be there's no 

Kevin: waste at all. 

Dot Leonard: So I think what we have to look at is maybe developing programs that are much more permissive [01:08:00] when it comes to aquaculture. 

 states have, held so tightly to the reins on allowing. Aquaculture that I think we just don't have the development that other countries have had, you know The Asian countries are way ahead of us in their aquaculture, I mean, they're they're producing. I mean, we're importing 90 percent of our seafood 

Kevin: 

Dot Leonard: how ridiculous is that? our waters are so much cleaner than from these countries that we're importing from. 

 to be in a situation we're in now that we can't come up with enough seafood for the demand we have, which is not particularly high to begin with. 

you know, one of the hardest parts about interviewing you is I could talk to you for days and still not ask the right questions and get the right kind of information because you've just done so much. 

Kevin: But if you had to describe what you would like your legacy to be, how would you describe that? 

Dot Leonard: I think it's really [01:09:00] important, to leave this world a little better than when you came, in a sense of Having touched a number of people, maybe convinced people to do things, whether it's growing oysters or, I don't know, cleaning up the environment, whatever.

If I could have influenced a few people, that would be wonderful by me. 

Kevin: I think you've influenced a hell of a lot of people and made a hell of a lot of change. I just think you're amazing and I'm so honored to have been able to spend time with you and I know you're gonna keep doing it and I can't wait to see more and 

Dot Leonard: well, listen kevin. Hang in there with me 

Kevin: I'm here 

Dot Leonard: now. We're good friends and you're gonna have to come along 

Kevin: Well, Dot Leonard, thank you so much. 

Dot Leonard: you're welcome, Kevin. It's been great. 

Well, that's it for this episode of OYSTER-oLogy.. Thanks to my guest Dot Leonard. As always show notes can be found on this episode's page. And if you [01:10:00] enjoyed it please rate or review it on whatever podcast platform you listen to. I'm your host, Kevin Cox. Join me next week when we pry open the shell of another interesting OYSTER-ology topic..

Bubbles: Bubblesp.