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You know, I think it's just good to have a document or something to keep your business direction front of mind and in check. Yeah, but whether that's for everyone or not, I don't know.
Ben Sutherland:Hello and welcome to the very first Design Principles podcast. I'm your host, Ben Sutherland.
Sam Brown:And I'm Sam Brown.
Gerard Dombroski:And I'm Gerard Dombroski.
Ben Sutherland:Seeing as it's the very first episode, we thought it would be cool to maybe have a chat about how we came about starting our own architecture firms and maybe some of the pros and cons on how the process has gone for us and where we're at now. So thought that'd be a good way to kick things off. Sam, do you want to have a crack? Yeah?
Sam Brown:man, let's crack it. So where did I start? Started my journey straight out of architecture school, joined a firm in Wellington called Foster Melville Architects, kind of hung about there for about six years until my wife and I decided to take a year's trip overseas which was pretty high opening experience and then sort of came back from that with a different view on the world and a different approach to architecture, and it didn't align with what my previous practice was doing. So I thought I'd start my own thing and jumped in. Haven't looked back. I started by myself, but a year in I brought on a business partner, johnny Fletcher, and we've been a red architects ever since. Where'd you go at this when, everywhere, man Like, we hit every continent except for Africa, something like 35 countries, lots of times South America, central America, all around, western and Middle Europe, central Europe. Yeah, it was pretty cool.
Gerard Dombroski:That's awesome. How'd that sort of change your thoughts on the whole shebang?
Sam Brown:I think you just get a little wider worldview and I think for me in particular, it sort of shifted my focus not necessarily my focus, but before I went overseas I was just on this path of work, work, work, work, work. And then that trip overseas really opened my eyes and I was like I need to approach my professional career with a little bit more of a purpose, I think. So I came back and that's what sort of driven the one of the core ethos of a red architects, which is this architecture which engages with its environment, sustainability, arc and all that sort of thing. So what I was really exposed to travelling was what humankind, I guess, the impact that it's having on the world and wanting to be able to sort of leave my mark and make it a better place for ourselves and our generations to come.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, so you're kind of seeing historic building sort of context as well as, like general misuse of resources, rubbish etc.
Sam Brown:Probably more misuse of resources and also just how really prominent natural landscapes and forms and things like glacial recession and things like that. That is what probably influenced me more than the actual built environment, I'd say is more the natural environment. So it was pretty cool seeing, obviously, architecture internationally, but I think that had less of an impact on me than the environments that we explored. Yeah, yeah nice.
Ben Sutherland:It's always funny, especially places like Europe going over there, experiencing the architecture, sort of the longevity of it all, and then coming back to a little old New Zealand and seeing how new everything is.
Sam Brown:I don't know, we just haven't been around long enough. We just haven't been around long enough. We'll get there one day, yeah.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, yeah.
Sam Brown:Those nice minimum 50 year you know building code houses, they'll be around forever.
Ben Sutherland:So how'd the process go for you that think it went quite smooth, or the things that you'd kind of change or improve.
Sam Brown:Yeah, it was. It's a steep learning curve but I sort of tackled it, talked to a lot of people in the build up to doing it a lot of peers that had done the same thing and sort of took their pros and cons and tried to iron out any of the questions before I kicked off. I didn't want to sort of start not knowing what I was doing and then find my feet midway through, and that proved to be a really successful approach. But you definitely learning curves and you know it's a great time to start a business when the market's in an upturn, but a couple of years in, when there's a heavy old recession sort of means, you take a look at things a little bit more closely and I think you know the learning. A big learning from that is having a really strong business plan and referring to it constantly and updating it is critical and that's something that we probably haven't done enough of but looking to do a bit more of in the future Interesting.
Ben Sutherland:I must always help having a in-house financial advisor as well.
Sam Brown:Yeah, that helps. It certainly helps, I must admit. Being able to sit back and focus on the architectural side of things and not have to worry about the financial side of things is certainly a benefit. So for listeners out there, fortunate enough that my wife is in finance and she tackles all of the invoicing and the money side of the business, so I don't have to worry about that, which is nice.
Ben Sutherland:It's interesting that you put such precedent on the or hierarchy on the business plan, though I definitely did one, but I don't know Is it? Is it actually that helpful Like? What do you find it useful for?
Sam Brown:I think. I think it provides a framework for what your business direction is Like. There's a reason why we all started our own things right, and we'll get to the reasons why you guys started yours in a minute. But without that written down sort of constant reminder of why you're here every day, you can sort of not necessarily lose your way. But your path can meander quite a bit, and it's good Not that meandering is a bad thing, but it's good to always come back and refer to why did I start this thing in the beginning?
Sam Brown:Has that changed? If it has, cool. Why? What's the direction from here? And if it hasn't, have you drifted too far from the course? Did you start this whole thing with this idea of maybe providing architecture to all and all of a sudden, all you're doing is five million plus houses. You go, oh shit, I sort of lost my way there. I've just become about the money. Is that a bad thing? Yes, no, maybe, don't know. Revisit, restart, whatever. I think it's just good to have a document or something to keep your business direction front of mind and in check.
Gerard Dombroski:But whether that's for everyone or not, don't know. Have you ran that right from the start and like what's that? Like directly from your trip, that sort of misuse materials?
Sam Brown:Did you update?
Ben Sutherland:it. We know Johnny Fletcher came on board. Yeah, he probably re-wrote the whole thing for you.
Sam Brown:We've been meaning to. It's funny, eh, like we haven't actually sat down. Like I said, we haven't actually sat down and completely redrafted that document, but it's still there and we refer to it every so often. And it's not so much, it's more key objectives, you know, and I think one of the biggest things is what's our ethos, you know what's our Brand or what's our company tagline, for instance, and are we staying true to that? And I think it's good to have one of those things so you can constantly keep yourself accountable.
Sam Brown:So, say, your tagline is the best for the best, or something along those lines, and you're providing caught. You know high end architecture, for you know big money, clients, cool. Or if your tags like tagline is something like ours, which is Inhabit the environments in which we live in, or something along those lines I can't remember what it is exactly off the top of my head, then, is the architecture architecture that we're producing? Is it Achieving that? And it's good to kind of hold yourself to that. When Johnny came on board, we Didn't necessarily rewrite it, but we do revisit it. And I think the biggest thing that we change is probably Goals. So we've got annual goals, five year goals and then 10 year goals, and they're constantly changing as the business develops.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, nice, do update those goals Just more every January, kind of thing.
Sam Brown:Yeah, we probably, like we've I'm still away on leave when I get back at the start of Feb. Yeah, when we get back at the start of Feb, our plan is to sort of revisit that and Particularly annual goals and sort of lay out what we want to achieve this year. What about you guys? I mean, yeah, I mean it's, it's and it's good having a business partner in that sense, because You've got somebody to sort of feed off and work with. But, gerard, I'd be interested to get your thoughts on it being a solo practitioner.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, that sounding board sort of thing is like super valuable and something I often run into. Well, talk to my girlfriend or something after a while just like glazes over. There's only so often you can like bounce ideas off somebody.
Ben Sutherland:But like I.
Gerard Dombroski:Have kind of run a similar, similar thing with, like writing a sort of document of intent and Sort of like, I guess goals and then like plan and strategy. I guess Do you want to kick us off with your, your background and that sort?
Ben Sutherland:of your, your architecture. Yeah, we'll back up the train. A little.
Gerard Dombroski:So for anybody who's listening to you, we all went to uni together, which is kind of a little good old days on similar timelines and still friends. Yeah, somehow Probably better friends now than we were at uni Probably.
Gerard Dombroski:So I worked at Little office in Wellington for three years but I've always had like an ambition and I've always had a lot of friends. I've always had like an ambition to do my own work and I think I'd probably take more of like the Artistry route where kind of my ambition is to create interesting architecture Sort of spaces that are Maybe offer something to the to the world of design and hopefully bring something new, some new ideas.
Sam Brown:Was that a concept that you brought on from the outset?
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, yeah, I think so. When I was a real little kid I wanted to be an inventor. I remember being disappointed as a child that I couldn't think of any new ideas like on the spot. As I've gotten older, I discovered that new ideas are like they're weird things to find but I don't know. That's definitely like an interesting pursuit within my work that I Try to and I have my own strategies and stuff around design process and stuff we can talk about another day.
Ben Sutherland:But I mean examples. Sitting right behind you are that giant steel banana.
Gerard Dombroski:Little tricks up. Upscaling a Item turns it into a thing of design all of a sudden.
Sam Brown:So, gerard, how do you find I mean architecture, although it's an artistic profession and pursuit, is not as much room for Artistry a lot of the time, like how do you go balancing that desire with what clients are looking for and things like that?
Gerard Dombroski:Super conversational. I think often the expectation when you have like that discussion is we all have to live in fiberglass spaceships, but I think there's just little interesting ways that you can tackle problems. So I think a Sort of a strategy within sort of my plan is that every job I take on kind of has to offer Something interesting into my body of work. So that's how I critique often whether I take project on or not. So I've definitely gone like the less is more sort of approach Like a lot of architects, pretty inspired by our boy, peter Zamphthoff, who's done very little work in the grand scheme of things, like we put them up against other architects, but the quality of work and Intentionality of it is pretty epic. Like so you must have like quite a strict process for how he takes on jobs. So I've always been quite intentional about that and then Kind of it wasn't meant to supplement but To add is like a research base. I got into making furniture During that first job. During that three years I brought a shipping container and had it out in Lile Bay, pretty much around the corner from where you are, sam. Yeah, and I just sort of go there in my afternoons At Vostie's Boon. Some stuff, cycle on down and then just pedal away till Till the later hours, sometimes early hours. So that was kind of giving Feeding that itch of Needing more design and more autonomy although, like within that job, we were getting a huge amount of autonomy, which was super valuable.
Gerard Dombroski:But for me it's like the passion in the office wasn't quite working for me and when you're at somebody else's job you're working like eight hours a day on sort of their dreams and goals. So eventually I I Went and did a brain rehab center with my friend, nick Balara and we stepped some beers together and he was like, oh, I was telling, was bored. And he was like, oh, you want to do a hospital? And I was like, oh, yeah, go on, probably do a donut.
Gerard Dombroski:Fast forward a few years with a big building in Paridur with a courtyard in it. It's a square donut but a tona nonetheless, yeah. So it's pretty, yeah, pretty stoked with, pretty appreciative of Nick for giving me that opportunity to do that project. And he was like, if you do this, that kind of gives you Something to start a business with. Whilst it was run through his office kind of, the whole job was kind of contracted to me and that kind of allowed me to pay my bills for three years, which is a really nice easy way to Correct things off. Yeah, yeah I was gonna.
Sam Brown:I was gonna ask you about that because obviously this you know, like you said, you've sort of afforded yourself the ability to pick and choose your clients, but obviously that doesn't necessarily pay the bills all the time. So, by the sounds of things, you've sort of had that, that initial financial backing, but then also use your furniture, design and stuff as supplementary income. With that be right.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah. So within those three years there's still predominantly like 95% architecture. And then I Kind of had that dream of having like a workshop and office in the same space so you could start to intermingle some of those. Those ideas Prode a bit of prototyping, the bit of prototype in mate.
Gerard Dombroski:I found this Workshop, which is in an old wool shed at the back of macro, a parcel, into a bond For fairly cheap. And then my friend Connor and I moved up there and fitted out a little shipping container. We had our office up there, which was kind of the first stage of Trying to really getting more into sort of object furniture, art and architect for the same time. And it worked really well there because we had super low rent now. So that's when I made a giant spoon and took like six months off and drove around the country with a big spoon as you do, as you do it's a super vague explanation for everybody listening yeah. So that's when it sort of really started to feather together a bit more. And then when I did that Piccolo project, that cheap rental allowed me to go up to Coromando and build a little hut which has done pretty well in terms of like press and social media and stuff. But then, coming back, my rent was getting quadrupled.
Ben Sutherland:Oh, yeah, overheads slowly creeping up, yeah, not ideal. What's your ratio? Is it kind of to art, to architecture?
Gerard Dombroski:It's probably 25% art, 25% furniture, 50% architecture. You say Yep, which is pretty cool, it's pretty stoked to have that stuff, but it is like tough financially. But in my mind we're still like building a foundation, building a brand, I guess. So I don't mind taking these hits at this stage in life if it means that when I'm an old boy we sort of get a few more projects in the realm of the projects we want to do.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, because it must be. I can say you're essentially starting two, potentially even three, companies one for the art, one for the architecture and one for the furniture.
Sam Brown:So yeah, it must be interesting.
Ben Sutherland:It must be hard to concentrate on three things at once but you seem to be doing a good job at it.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, it is pretty taxing, though. It's where, like, there's always these decisions where you get to like an impasse, where, like Sam having this supporter's wife who is so tight in, that's like a super valuable sounding board where you can sort of strategize and then, with a business partner, like three heads are better than one, so I do run into that.
Sam Brown:Gives you someone to share the pain with as well.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, it spreads that liability.
Gerard Dombroski:So at the moment it's really nice to do a project where you've been, because that's just so much easier than your workforce.
Sam Brown:That brings us, to you then, sard what's your story? Tell us your history, mate.
Ben Sutherland:Well, I'm actually on my second firm. I guess the first one was Makers in Wellington there, which we started when we were still at university, which was quite fun, so that was, four of us had a project on and Wellington Post Earthquake project and yeah, that was like a quite an interesting one. I did it for my thesis and it was kind of meant to be the first digitally fabricated house in the country and they went really well. We went down there and built it and there was a lot of fun. We basically just got a bit of a client base after we finished that construction and built Makers off the back of it really and got quite a few yeah, like I said, like a lot of interest, which was quite cool. And then I guess the idea then was to sort of do the design and build and bring them closer together to try and cut out a lot of that lost transfer of information, that you kind of all that segregation between what the architect is and what the builder is. So from there we started Makers fabrication and that was, I think, that's. Yeah, they're both still running today and still really successful and learned so much from not only like the architecture firms and starting that, but also, you know, starting the prefabrication and construction company. So that was, yeah, that whole experience was interesting. It taught me a lot.
Ben Sutherland:I guess one of the key lessons was, I guess, like, if I was to go back, I would definitely question getting into it too soon.
Ben Sutherland:I think, like, especially after hearing your story, sam, it would have been quite cool to actually go back overseas and spend another couple of years experiencing different culture when we're. At uni I did manage to slip away to Germany there for a year, but kind of not enough, and I didn't realise at the time how much like owning a company because you know we were just kids and thought it'd be cool how much it actually ties you down kind of like, you know, locks you into one spot, and especially like pre this is well and truly pre COVID. Covid has definitely changed a lot around flexibility, like you know. It's definitely. I think it's definitely possible to be an architect on the go a little bit more now than back then, but especially when you're kind of like a young entrepreneur trying to, you know, figure things out as you go, I think yeah, I think it would have been good to maybe take a little bit of a break from university and experience the world a little bit more.
Sam Brown:Experiences that key word there, though, like when you're starting your own architecture firm straight out of uni. What experience do you have? Not a lot, yeah, none. You know. And it's an interesting one as well, because how do you know, or how do you determine, what your direction is going to be? You know, I think it takes us a long time, and I don't know about yourself, gerard, and even you now being with with a bit more experience behind you, but I still, even though you know, a decade into this thing in terms of working in architecture, the direction takes a long time to find. It takes a long time to find your design voice, what your aesthetic is, all of these things and starting a fresh man so hard to build from essentially no foundation and no base.
Ben Sutherland:I guess it's cool yeah.
Sam Brown:I was just going to say it's cool to hear that you know Makers Fab and Makers of Architecture are doing well, given you know that they started from that pretty broad beginning.
Ben Sutherland:Absolutely we were. We thought we had a really clear. In fact I know we had a really clear design direction then and in fact I think it was probably clearer then than it is now. It's taken us taken me all that time to get back to the clarity that we have been.
Ben Sutherland:And I guess that was just built off the back of this whole thesis, all this research that we've done about it. We were like, cool, we want to focus on, you know, digital fabrication. There's like this whole prefabrication. I know it's quite big now, but back then this is, oh no, 10 or 11 years ago now. It was actually kind of just coming in hitting New Zealand. Really, prefab NZ had just started. So there was a lot of stuff happening within that realm which really made it so interesting for us.
Ben Sutherland:And, going back to what Gerard was saying, kind of felt like we were in hindsight we're probably just reinventing the wheel, but it felt like we were doing a lot of innovation and so that provided that clarity. It's like there's so many areas to improve in construction, especially with the use of digital technologies. I guess what we just didn't realize is how long that the industry is just such a slow moving industry. Maybe it's just how long it takes for the industry to kind of adapt and change in these technologies to improve over time. So I think we kind of ended up slowing down I wouldn't say losing the innovation, but definitely slowing. It slowed down quite a bit and that's when I think for me anyway, the design direction may have kind of slowed down at the same time.
Sam Brown:And is that one of the reasons why you decided to move on and start to do your own thing?
Ben Sutherland:I think it was just a bunch of reasons and I think another thing I realized if I was to go back in time I would do would really be to do some business courses, pre-company inception, I think. Not knowing and not only having to pick up the architecture side of things, but having to learn about what business is. I'm pretty sure it took us like five years just to figure out what a company is actually meant to be doing. And it sounds ridiculous, but you're focused on all these other areas, you don't really concentrate on the business side of things. So I think that kind of putting myself back to school and doing some business courses and that sort of thing has kind of helped me.
Ben Sutherland:You know, reframe kind of what I want to get out of architecture these days and I think in a lot of ways it's kind of helped. You know, with my architecture I like to focus on, you know, the feasibility side of things a lot more as well as the architecture itself, which is quite different to, I guess you know, a lot of other architects. I really enjoy the financial side of architecture as well. So I guess, like that's kind of the split is like that. That was kind of my interests were more on the developer kind of side.
Sam Brown:I was about to say, it sounds like you've taken like a more business-like approach to the design field, which is an interesting, you know interesting take, and it's sort of like we've got three different, I guess, avenues of architecture here. You know Gerard with his artistic side, you've been with your more business-focused side, and then, I guess, me with the more holistic, environmental side. It's quite cool to come at it from all these different angles.
Ben Sutherland:Absolutely, absolutely. But like it's I'm sure we can all agree on this that it should not be one or the other, like it's really about including it all, but it is good to kind of find your little niche.
Sam Brown:That's a beautiful thing about our profession, though, right Is, there's always space for anyone and everyone's approach, because no two clients are the same, no two projects are the same, no two sites are the same, so it gives us that opportunity to delve in if and when appropriate, which is cool.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, yeah, you can stay in business.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, it must be done something similar You've got to make it past that five years.
Ben Sutherland:So my new company I've only been running it for a year now, maybe not even that, so it's still extremely fresh.
Gerard Dombroski:You'll be fine, mate, you'll be fine.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, we'll be fine. Hopefully the market's on my side, we'll see it's on the upturn. Yeah, apparently.
Gerard Dombroski:And that make is chatter. All the work you've done over those years, that's like, is it?
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, oh, and I just set up with it.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, it's so valuable as well. Like it was such a great experience and hard. Like do not underestimate it's the same with. I can imagine you guys would 100% agree on this. Like, yeah, it is hard, it's a grind. You know, owning your active practice is absolutely a grind, day in and day out. You've just got to, like, get in there, do what needs to be done. You're the firefighter, you know you're the one that's got to go around and put out all the fires, and especially, you know, with makers I'm not saying that he's a fire or anything.
Ben Sutherland:Although there was a firewise, it's just like they had their staff, you know they had. When we were there they had quite a few staffs. So just having to like learn about, you know, employee relationships and that sort of thing Like it definitely takes things to a whole new level.
Sam Brown:I mean that's a good point to. I mean this is a good point to sort of let's get a hot take right, like if you guys were to give someone who's looking to start their own firm whether it's an architecture, whether it's in anything, just their own business like Gerard, what's your what number one hot take for someone and take away starting their own thing.
Gerard Dombroski:I think the thing we all share is that initial naivety and like, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, I think, if you're going to jump into something which is it helps to be naive. It's not always this it's sometimes better not to know the full picture.
Gerard Dombroski:So, I'm actually all for like a healthy naivety, because otherwise some people just wouldn't start. So I think the best thing is just to crack in and like your makers route, like there's huge amount of experience there that you have now, and like me and Sam working at other jobs, like trying to pick up this, trying to farm as much knowledge as we could during that time. But ultimately you've got to press go at some point. Yeah, I got that helping Nick to sort of blur my way in.
Sam Brown:Yeah, ben, what's your hot take?
Ben Sutherland:Well, I have a different stance, but that's only because I guess it's more of like me as an individual. My tolerance for risk is quite low, so I had no problems kind of just diving in and giving it a go. After so many years of like startups and whatnot, you kind of learn to live off the smell of an oily rag. So it is what it is. But yeah, I guess that mine would be more around like getting some sort of financial education or marry finance.
Ben Sutherland:Someone in the financial industry. That always helps. I just think, like learning the ins and outs of what a company is and what it should be doing, what you're actually there for other than the architecture because you know there really are should go hand in hand. That's key, and then you're just getting as much experience prior to diving in as possible, especially the key aspects. I think that's key, sure.
Gerard Dombroski:What about you?
Sam Brown:Sam, my quick hot take would be be prepared to never shut off. I think that's the key. One is like when you start your own thing, there's no, no weekends no charts, there's no weekends.
Sam Brown:There's no, there's no, there's no working overtime, there's no holidays. I mean, you've got a holiday? Well, exactly right. I mean, let's put it this way, you can afford yourself all of this stuff if you want it, and a lot of the time you do. But the thing is you are going to always be thinking about your business. You're always going to be thinking about what's next, how to change things, how to make things better, staff problems, successes, all of that stuff. It's a constant back of your mind. So, just prepared to have the nag. It's a great nag because it's your nag, it's not someone else's, but people are prepared to have it.
Ben Sutherland:That's and also like just being an architect kind of adds to that as well, though, because not only are you kind of obsessed with you know, you've got these, you got your architecture, your clients and your business but also just like life in general. Artists just absolutely love designing every aspect of their life, so when you combine that with, like business, you're like, okay, how can I make this epic, like how can I make it super clean?
Ben Sutherland:And you know, like it's yeah, I find that a lot, a lot, I think, to be able to do it all at home.
Sam Brown:We're all OCD to some level.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, yeah, I think like I probably took that to the extreme for a while. Like all I did was work on it, kind of like maybe had some issues on my relationships at the time. Yeah, then, like you, kind of sometimes you get to the stage of like burnout. So in the last year I've kind of had to learn the opposite to like make sure I like relax a little bit and sort of unwind a little bit, give a little space to breathe, because I but the nags always there though, right the naglethram.
Ben Sutherland:You just need to try and make it as fun as possible along the way, though, like for example, this podcast, like it's just fun, like it's just like yes, it is business related and we probably will think about it a lot, but it's a great opportunity for us to just like do all that interesting research that we all want to do anyway, but actually like transition that research into something useful and just have a good conversation about some interesting architecture, business related ins and outs, I guess.
Sam Brown:Exactly, and hopefully people can get something from it. You know it's nice to give back as well. Yeah it's a very take, take, take industry, so it's nice to give a bit of, have a little bit of give as well.
Gerard Dombroski:It's good to give some insight. So a bit of meat. A lot of the podcasts I listen to. I'm like when people discuss how they started their journey and it's all like super straightforward and like.
Sam Brown:Rosie. Then I got this great.
Gerard Dombroski:You know I was inundated. Yeah, trouble paying bills.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, it's one or the other. It's like I've just been struggling to get work the whole way through, or it's like I've just had so much work the whole way through.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, that's you.
Ben Sutherland:I do get a bit of work here.
Sam Brown:Ben walks into our studio at the end of last year, cheerias for me and Johnny are depressed no work. Coming in the door flouting how much work he's got. Oh man, Thanks, that was a bit rough on my part. Read the room.
Ben Sutherland:Hey, your office is so nice. You know you had to pay for that somehow. I was looking at you bombarded with work at the moment.
Sam Brown:It's all about it. All about outward appearances.
Gerard Dombroski:I quite like bring that more collaborative, community sort of vibe to things, because it kind of does make it more enjoyable and more exciting. Like I've shared my workshop and office with Connor for a long time before I got a little bit too ex-penny for him. When you're out here by yourself blasting away, there's only so many conversations you can have with yourself.
Sam Brown:Yeah, and I mean we shared an office last year and it was awesome having that collaborative environment. We share an office now with a builder, ben Nensip from MPB Builders. It's awesome having somebody on both sides of the corner the construction process in the same room. We can share so much information and you can already see how well it matches streamlines projects on both of our sides. It's great.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, it's great, absolutely Everything. Something else I kind of want to like implement into the culture, I guess, of New Zealand architecture is just like telling people when they do awesome work, like I think people can hold off of their praise a little bit. Yeah, I come from a culture of like skating and kayaking or something where somebody does a cool waterfall that you're really behind and you share the stoke. So I don't know, I really want to bring that kind of vibe to architecture.
Ben Sutherland:It's just because you're alone out there, mate, so you've got no one to prop you up.
Sam Brown:Prop you up. Nah, that's an interesting. That's an interesting take, gerard, because you're right, I think our industry is almost it's too focused on criticism to a degree and there's not a lot of internal industry props and there should be way more of it. I mean, like there's obviously the awards processes and things and everyone sort of rallies behind that, but there's also a little bit of animosity around that because, you know, people are like I didn't win, I think I should have won Shwan.
Sam Brown:why did that one win? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Really, everyone should just be out there getting hyped for each other. And even though it's a competitive industry and a competitive field and there's lots of us, actually we're all here with one goal and that's the, you know, the betterment of the built environment. So why aren't we all supporting each other?
Ben Sutherland:So I guess like to kind of counteract that there actually is. I don't actually think that there are too many architects in this country, and there is some epic architecture. Honestly, there's a lot of amazing architects. They do some awesome stuff, like every year. Looking at the NZIA awards, man, I'm just like blown away at the level of architecture that we're actually producing. But there is also so much more rubbish, you know there's so much more rubbish, so I don't know, but that's it right. What are we?
Sam Brown:What are we? 10% of the built environment in terms of bespoke design and it's concerning right Like. We've just built a place in Lake Harware and I've been down there for the last month. There's a new development in there going in there called Longview, and God, it's grim.
Ben Sutherland:It's so disappointing. Longview is not so long anymore.
Sam Brown:Man, you're talking about one of the most beautiful settings in the country, stunning views 360 degrees and you've got these off the off the plan. Stucco houses being built in this environment and they're so unsuitable for the terrain that they're in, they're so unsuitable for the environment that surrounds them and you're just like what's going on. But there's so many people are happy with that and it's a tough one because it's almost on us as a profession to sort of push a better built environment. But it's difficult when there's a big block wall of genericism in front of us.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, and that's so interesting You're commenting on, there's so many people happy with that. When I was young and just sort of starting out in the profession, I remember giving a good friend of mine a lot of great people. She was just purchasing a first house and it was kind of like a GJ Gardner type house I think it was actually GJ Gardner and I was giving her a lot of grief about it, like, oh you know, why aren't you getting an architect's house? But the reality is like, who's going to buy an architecture house for the first house anyway? So you know, the fact is like they do have their place. But yeah, I don't know, it's just a tough one. It's tough one. I think there should be a lot more architecturally. You know design houses, but how do you do that in competition with the GJ Gardner?
Sam Brown:type of thing With the group homes.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, it's a tough one.
Gerard Dombroski:There are some groups trying to like take on that market and I kind of see them as the main competition. I don't really see architectures competitive.
Ben Sutherland:Absolutely. We should do a whole pod on taking on the group, taking on the group home.
Gerard Dombroski:Taking on the group home. Yeah, that's a great one.
Sam Brown:Yeah, nice.
Gerard Dombroski:City makers like I think there's a lot to offer. That isn't anything offered.
Sam Brown:So anyway, ben, what else did you want to cover today, mate, should we?
Ben Sutherland:well, predictions for the year maybe what are you gonna go? Maybe just wrap it up with that. What are some key, key things in the architecture realm? Don't limit it to New Zealand, like International, even, or even New Zealand.
Sam Brown:Oh, who's going first, you go Sweet. I've actually had a good thing about this and did a bit of research as well. And Dizine drop this interesting article, article sort of their hot takes for 2024, their predictions and a couple of them. I agreed with an old and I'll just dwell on those. Initially, I think the first one, which is close to my heart, is there's gonna be a big uptake, hopefully. Well, I think there's gonna be a big uptake, particularly and well no in the both commercial and residential sector of Client and developer understanding of green building accreditation. Yeah, and I think it's been in the industry for a long time and a lot of people throw around these things like living building challenge, green star home, star neighbors, whatever passive house do you just want to give us a rundown on how that green building Accreditation might work, because for those, yeah, I mean super briefly.
Sam Brown:I mean because it's a part in itself pretty much, but super briefly, there's a lot of Organizations out there, both nationally in New Zealand and internationally, that have certain standards that must be met For a building to reach a certain, a certain accreditation.
Sam Brown:A lot of it is focused around Sustainability and whether that be in the building's performance or in its construction, and these are things like Carbon counting, understanding what your buildings, water and energy usages, so that's things like solar, recycled water for commercial buildings, stuff like that, and then a big one obviously that everyone sort of throws around as the whole passive house idea, and that's thermal focus and energy consumption focus and things like that. So what I think the one of the biggest shifts that we're going to find this year is, the general public's Understanding is going from. This is a cool buzzword, I pluck it out of the sky and I say I want this, but actually not understanding what it means. I think that the They'll become a greater understanding in the general public about what those accreditations are and what that will lead to as an uptake and a desire for this, both residential and commercially, which ultimately will just mean a better built environment.
Ben Sutherland:So in terms of you know the price of materials, for example. Do you think you know those costs are gonna have to come down or else buildings just gonna be too Unaffordable, too unattainable, you know especially? I mean develop a perspective. It's hard to really make those feasibilities. Studies stack up of a few.
Sam Brown:Your cost? Yeah, I mean yet for sure, and earth, but I think what it?
Ben Sutherland:what.
Sam Brown:What a lot of it is is it's it's not necessarily just like the cost of materials or necessarily the cost of labor, it's more actually the cost of your consultants, I'd say, is what will the cost of your consultants is what will be the biggest sort of Cost increase for developers and things within the realm of green building?
Sam Brown:Because what you're gonna need is you're gonna need consultants, but they are architects, service engineers, what have you that understand how to design, how to maintain and how to deliver these green buildings?
Sam Brown:And without that You're just gonna have a lot of people throwing money at it at projects and not actually getting something to work. Yeah, whereas if you have these skilled designers which are now starting to emerge you know, you know a lot of these sort of homestar professional type of creditations and green star building designers and things these people are starting to emerge far more skilled and experienced in the market now and what they're able to do is to live of these projects cleverly not, hopefully not Influencing, you know, that end dollar too much, but obviously there'll be an increase in fees, a little bit for our services, but what it's gonna give you through the lifetime of the building is a far better performing, ultimately cheaper to maintain and run Building then what you're getting currently so and so do you think just add into that we're gonna also see like an increase of educate like architects in that right going to the Education and I yeah, I think it's almost becoming a necessity, particularly, I'd say, for residential, for the residential sector.
Sam Brown:I think it's a necessity that the majority of residential architectural firms have Either somebody in their team or access to somebody, whether there be a sub consultant or something that has this knowledge. Yeah, interesting, and you know there's murmurs about that's being included into the building code or the building consent process in the future, which I think would be excellent, but we'll just have to see and watch that space. So that's hot take one for me. And then hot take two is I think there will be a bit of a revolt, maybe not a revolt, but a moving away from AI and design and this. You can call me out on this if you want, but I think everyone's.
Sam Brown:You know it's only been a year or so since chat, gpt, super like, massively emerged on the scene and I think it's had a big influence Even on our profession. But you, very quickly there's become too heavy a reliance on what AI can provide and I think this year we'll see a little bit of a. There's been a sharp upturn. I think what we'll see this year is a bit of a flattening of the curve and maybe even a bit of a downturn on the reliance on AI.
Ben Sutherland:You say that, but who's relying on AI at the moment, and especially in the architecture realm? Who who's? I use JAPE DPD all the time, but other than that, like I'm business as usual, yeah, for sure.
Sam Brown:But I think this is maybe not necessarily in New Zealand focused thing, but I think internationally, lots of people are starting to lean into AI to generate concept of designs, to produce a lot of that imagery. You know, even we will use render software, but then we'll use generative AI to build backgrounds and all that sort of stuff, you know, and it's great and it works well. But I think what it's doing is it's sort of taking away a little bit of that finesse and care and attention that, like architectural projects need, which is why I think there'll be a bit of a revolt, but we'll see.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, it's definitely a slow burning, you know, process getting all that software to actually be of any significant use, and also we all know how slow the architecture construction industry is. So and just you know people to adapt and start using them as like an everyday part of their process, I think that's going to be a slow burner as well.
Sam Brown:Yeah, for sure.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, so you drive, which got same on that initially. The it seems in my mind a hard thing for most architects to actually want to do like want to use AI as a design tool. I understand like the adding stuff to your renders to sort of soften it out and whatever.
Sam Brown:I don't know, man, I think we're all looking for a shortcut a lot of the time, and that's where and this is why I think like maybe this is not necessary in New Zealand take, but maybe potentially more international is that we're always looking to to speed up the process and be able to deliver things quicker, and that's what AI does. Yeah, it's surely. It's not only those monotonous tasks, so it's not like you can't take away the essence of architecture?
Ben Sutherland:Well, you can, but you want to avoid that at all costs.
Sam Brown:Well, that's exactly it, and I think that's the risk is that people have got so excited about AI too quickly and are losing that essence, which is why they'll be. The revolt is what I'm sort of leading, yeah, yeah.
Gerard Dombroski:I missed the uptake.
Ben Sutherland:You'll catch it on the next wave mate.
Gerard Dombroski:There's another set rolling through soon, maybe.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah exactly.
Gerard Dombroski:I haven't even talked anything into chat Gbt.
Ben Sutherland:Oh, what do you? What do you have any way to write? You get something.
Gerard Dombroski:Oh hot takes. I don't, I don't really. I actively try to stay away from like looking at trends or no, all cast or kind of anything. Called me old school. I like to stay in the dark so I can be less. It's. It's wishful thinking, I guess, because we see so much day to day anyway, but it's kind of do it in the hope that hopefully you can come up with some original, interesting ideas. Yeah, nice.
Sam Brown:And influence. So, Gerard, your hot take at twenty twenty four is to remain in the cave.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, I'm just going to, I'm just going to keep tripping away doing my thing and I like, one foot in front of the other, got some, got some projects on the go, so, and like a backlog of ideas I want to work through. So we'll do that and like how you guys have gone overseas, I'm hoping I get a little trip overseas this year.
Sam Brown:Get some influence.
Gerard Dombroski:Haven't been past Aussie, so it'd be nice to be influenced in that way. Like I'm getting quite into sort of historical architecture, like I think the older you get, the more into history you become. I don't know about you guys, but I found that definitely interesting. I kind of like these ideas. I've been playing with some ideas on sort of gothic arches and stuff, like referencing some of that style of architecture, but in like a modernist sort of mid-century sort of way. So those are.
Ben Sutherland:I prefer the classic. After living in our Rome and Italy for six months, I definitely prefer the more kind of classic typology. But I'm definitely, I'm 100% with you. Yeah, bring back the old school construction.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, well, we're sort of talking about some of those classical ideas and that helps a little project. So we're really so.
Sam Brown:It's interesting, though, because, although I don't think we've ever lost at least the classical concepts you know, like form and order and all those sort of things that are always there in architecture yeah, I guess I'm meaning a little bit that you're all like using gothic arches in like a modern way, yeah, and like I quite like those cloister buildings.
Gerard Dombroski:It's like big courtyard of archways, so like I love courtyards and lots of my projects seem to have courtyards in them, so maybe tying that into projects and cool. Yeah, there's lots of ideas to work through. So that's kind of where I'm heading. I just continue to develop ideas and try work through them.
Sam Brown:Yeah nice being a hotel. What about?
Ben Sutherland:you, ben. Well, I guess one would just be more of like an industry prediction, I think that I think it's, I think we hopefully, and take this like a grand assault, but I think we're going to sort of start to slowly see a bit of an increase in work. I think interest rates will hopefully start to come down a little bit, ocs seem to be stabilizing and inflation is slowly dropping off. So I think, yeah, we're going to see maybe not so much because the architecture is kind of always a little bit slow, but hopefully the property market picking up a little bit towards the mid or end of the year and off the back of that work, increasing, I guess is probably my only Potential. Yeah, my only prediction Nothing architecture related directly, but yeah, that's kind of what I'm predicting for the year.
Sam Brown:I hope you're right yeah.
Gerard Dombroski:There. No, I think, I think I was thinking.
Sam Brown:No, I agree with you, ben, it's. It's interesting, like I think it's already. You can feel the murmurs of an improved market set. You know the construction market sector is definitely on the improve. Yeah, having a chat to a couple of builders this week and they're like we're getting a lot more inquiries, particularly for like renovations and things like that as well, and I think a lot of the time it's, you know, the tail wagging the dog or vice versa, whatever that saying is. You know and we'll follow, and I think you know obviously we last year we went through a massive economic downturn and election or increased building costs, you know, increased interest rates, all of this sort of stuff, and so it was sort of this shitstorm of bad luck for the building sector. But you know we've we've threw a lot of that now and you know we're in that lingering post Christmas, new Year, holiday period churn of no, I was quite sure what they're doing. Yet Come March, come March, I think there'll be a far more clear direction.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, yeah, so yeah, nice, oh, let's wrap it up there.
Sam Brown:That's the part. The part Nice Cheers boys. It's been nice kickoff. I'll stop recording.