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hello and welcome back to the design principles podcast. You're here with myself, gerard, sam and ben our usual hosts and today we have a very special guest with us, mr Simon Devitt the man, the maestro, the myth, the legend, the meme lord. Thank you. For those who don't know Simon he's a photographer, mainly in the architectural world, but definitely not limited to the architecture world, extremely prevalent across New Zealand and his webs are going wider across the world. Very much a household name and very stoked and honored that you could join us today, simon I'm thrilled to be here.
Simon Devitt:thanks for asking me on guys really honored to be here. Thanks, easy.
Gerard Dombroski:Stoked. I guess, to start off, it would be awesome to hear a little backstory, because I don't think I know your backstory how you got into photography.
Simon Devitt:Backstory.
Gerard Dombroski:Saw something you were born beside a camera or something.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, I guess you've been doing it for a while.
Simon Devitt:My ethos is very clear that I never let the truth get in the way of a good story. That brings us to the camel. But we have to go further. Well, not further back. We have to go slightly forward of that to being able to blame my dad. You know it's good to blame your parents, so I figure let's just throw that in there because you got it right. Chuck is with a living correction for anything that they should have done, that we wanted them to do, that they didn't, that we know about now but didn't know about before.
Sam Brown:Nothing like living vicariously.
Simon Devitt:I feel you know all about this, sam. We need to have a chat about that. So Dad was a really avid amateur photographer. He had a lovely Minolta SLR. It was always loaded with slide film, transparency film.
Simon Devitt:And wherever we went and we went sort of far and wide we lived in the States for a number of years when we were kids he would photograph us and that would always end up as a slideshow projected onto the wall at home and I was just absolutely enthralled to see not just where we went but us as a family in those places. And there was something about the projected image on the wall that was really significant for me. I mean, I don't think I would have been able to tell you at the time what that was, being a young fellow, but looking back now, really profound really in terms of that image making the venue for collectively, socially viewing the image together, because largely photography might be viewed in a gallery on a wall or at home in an album, potentially for that family context, but then it's in a book and it's probably sort of more one-on-one, quite a personal thing, often not shared. So slideshows are sort of where it kicked off for me. So, um, it was that family gathering, the family photo really sitting at the center of my practice as a photographer, or certainly how I started imagining what it might be like to be a photographer, but also then, even more than just that, seeing the world as pictures, often through the car door, in the back seat, while mum and dad were driving, you know.
Simon Devitt:And when we were in the States it was a red Thunderbird with white leather, very, very bling, very gangster, and the window at the back was round. So I kind of got this view on the world, this periscope sort of portal view that you know, looking back again, it was quite unusual, but those were my early kind of influences. Dad made some beautiful pictures and you know, looking back at the photo albums now, they're really treasured memories but also they're a way to transport ourselves back to those moments in a flash. You know it's pretty cool. So, yeah, I blame my dad.
Sam Brown:Was there any focus in your dad's photography on architecture in particular, or is it just sort of general family, everyday life type imagery?
Simon Devitt:Mostly everyday life.
Simon Devitt:Like you know us in places largely, and I think the reason why a family photo is so important, particularly when we're all together in one picture, probably staring down the barrel.
Simon Devitt:When we're all together in one picture, probably staring down the barrel, we in one moment get to look at ourselves and each other and have that ability to compare and place things in one picture really quite quickly.
Simon Devitt:And I don't, you know, for me that's a hugely valuable experience, a valuable moment, and I think that allowed me a way to look at what we're all up to as humans. So it's probably more than just being about architecture for me, which I obsess about, it's probably more sociological, anthropological, it's probably even sitting further back than just the conversation about architecture and it's looking at what we're all up to, where we live, where we work, where we play, what that all looks like and I think a fascinated, really deeply curious way that my hope is that it allows me to make images that don't just describe things, that hopefully they beckon questions as well yeah, I had a friend go on a big old ski trip a number of years back and then they him and his friends that were on the trip organized this big event of like a slideshow and that like event of sitting down with a whole bunch of people around like a projector was pretty awesome.
Gerard Dombroski:And then everyone's like recounting stories about certain things happening. I love that. I think you should do that at the City Gallery or something. You should get the whole city and Simon Devitt sit-down. Slideshow. Love a slideshow, it'd be pretty fun.
Simon Devitt:I mean, I've replaced well, I've satisfied my urge to have that communal type slideshow with the talks that I fairly often do, which is, you know, not just me talking, thank God, but also pictures that I've shot and maybe other people have made as well along the way to make reference to. So I kind of get my fill on that, that. But I think that's a, that's a great idea. And I'd seen, um, uh, nan Golden's documentary, and I forget the name, but, uh, her work is incredibly fascinating and it's a different type of family photography that she does, and I was inspired by seeing her documentary that it would be a good idea to buy a big 35mm slide projector and get some of the old slides out.
Gerard Dombroski:What are your parents' ones? One of those rotary ones that were like chuk chuk, chuk chuk.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, yeah, I mean hard to beat that sound through in this and the sound of the fan cooling the motor down.
Sam Brown:yeah, yeah, pretty pretty nice yeah, I distinctly remember family slideshow nights like that growing up at my granny and granddad's house. He was a, a server, uh, in antarctica, in the outback, and you know we'd sit down and do exactly that same thing. Everyone would gather around, would have grandma's chicken and we'd sort of sit there and watch the slideshow and be unbelievably hot in the room, mainly because of the slide, slide chain or the projector and, um, yeah, like those memories are forever and it's sort of interesting that we don't have that engagement with a photo anymore, or we're not really afforded that opportunity because we have a hundred thousand sitting on our phone, you know yeah, that's it.
Simon Devitt:um, yeah, that slide projector bulb would run at about a thousand degrees, intensely loud fan, just to just to calm things down a bit, but it was all that sensory aspect to it that went with it, right? So it was all these ingredients to you know, family being there, too hot, yeah, the sound of the thing, probably, the smell of dust on the bowl, yeah, uh, and then all these um memories being projected on the wall, some of them clearly quite embarrassing if you're half nude or whatever, but all, really, you know, yeah, really important, like I think. Yeah, for me, still, it's definitely about, you know, looking at what is the foundation that I stand on, what is that made up of? Where do I stand, particularly where I'm making, where and when I'm making pictures, and, uh, I always come back to, and it always sits with me that, the importance of, of, of family, pictures of family and and those origins yeah, so it's a bit of a.
Sam Brown:It's a bit of a jump, but what? What takes you from, from that memory or that beginning to where you are now?
Simon Devitt:There are always people along the way and you know I blame Dad significantly and you know deserves every second of it in the best possible way.
Simon Devitt:And then probably wasn't really until high school, like fifth form, where you know we're talking back in the 1800s here. So the teacher you know there's always a teacher, eh, that gets through, there's always one that you get along with, that, you know, leaves some really good things with you, imprints, stuff that you are willing to listen to and take on board. There were a few teachers like that for me, but my photography teacher was pretty great and I think that was really the first time I started to think seriously that this could be more than just a whimsical thought of a seven-year-old watching slideshows, that there was something else about it. I had no idea then, of course, even at high school, that you could be a photographer of architecture. I knew nothing about that, but I certainly knew that trying to make sense of the world and myself in it with a camera felt pretty good and it was something that I was intensely curious about. It allowed my curiosity to really fizz, and that's only sort of gotten more fervent, I think.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, it'd be amazing, be really interesting to hear about your camera progression, as in did you start off with film and then at some stage move to digital and then perhaps in and out, or because I would imagine going through that uh area where kodak was sort of becoming overtaken or a little bit more redundant.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, that happened much later, Ben, for me, because you know, it was horses and wagons and holding candles when I was around, so it was definitely film and my professional career started in 94. So it's been a little while. But within architecture it was really sort of in 97, 98 that things kicked off and I had a large format Sinar camera with an 810 back on it, so shooting just transparency film, and then after that I got into a fuji medium format system. So I was running both polaroid backs, um, and with film and transparency film in particular, there's no latitude for for mistakes. You you get the shot or you don't, and it lives and dies on the lab floor.
Simon Devitt:So it was really for me great to have that foundation of photography sitting within. You know, it really felt like the roots of photography were my school ground. You know where I learned to. You know, cut my teeth and make sure on the shoot the pictures were good, not afterwards in Photoshop and being transparency film, you're literally painting onto a black surface. Uh, you're adding light and that makes the picture and it's not like it's not a white canvas, it's literally black.
Simon Devitt:So for me, if that, that sense of creation, that making, that exploring, that part's never left me. Going to digital didn't make any difference to how I go about making the pictures that I make, so it's always felt important to justify every element in a picture you know, right to the edges. In fact, the edges are probably the most important part of the composition for me, where I'm able to in some way acknowledge the rest of the world or what I chose to leave out, and thinking about all of that, that instinctive decision-making in terms of what's included and what's not in that composition. In that moment it's always from black. It's always the way I think about it, the way I approach it, the way I resolve things and, ultimately, my relationship to it it's interesting.
Sam Brown:You can almost draw a similar parallel to your journey to, say, an older architect who cut their teeth, doing everything by hand, and you've sort of got a far more intimate relationship maybe with your work when you're doing that, whereas our generation not saying that this is the case across the board. But you know, in a digital generation where we expect results faster, we work quicker, we don't sort of have that more careful consideration foundation. Do you see, or do you have any advice maybe? Or do you see sort of younger photographers coming up that maybe don't have that base that you have had? Do you think they suffer or do you think that they're lacking something because of that?
Simon Devitt:I think there's um, there's definitely, for me, been a benefit to coming from the analog past and I think the direct comparison I would make is that, now that I've had some years now in digital, I can compare those two things, and the ability to compare is something that's incredibly powerful and it can also be quite destructive, because we know as children, when we first learn about our, our ability to compare, we also know as adults that um too much comparison can be quite, quite nasty. So we, um, we have that innate ability and me looking at the digital realm of photography when, I compare it to film photography where I started.
Simon Devitt:It's a little bit like comparing fast food and slow cooking. I would make that comparison and so I can do that. It doesn't mean someone who's just had their photography career or learning in digital can't do that, it's just that. That's what I'm able to. That's the comparison I can make, and I think it's a really useful one, because we live, I think, in what is a very fast food world where everything is immediate now, and how much is enough? Well, it's never enough, particularly in the case of, you know, a lot of western countries, and america seems to lead the way in that, and and so it's. It's only when we can usefully compare those two things, or be aware that there are two things, perhaps in this case, where, if we did use that fast food, slow cooking analogy that if our life is really quick and convenient and we're able to have whatever we want when we want it, what does slow cooking look like in your life? And if we can't make that comparison or ask that question in a useful way, then we don't know any different and we don't know what we don't know.
Simon Devitt:I think it's really useful that, if we use another metaphor, say tennis great sport. I never played it particularly well, but I really enjoyed it. We could say that in tennis, if our life was just quick all the time, convenient, modern day living, it would be like playing tennis at the net, volleying the whole time and not knowing that behind us, if we were aware of it at all, if we just were aware, simply to look over our shoulder and see a whole court there waiting for us. And my comparison that I would make is that slow cooking is a little bit like being aware that there's a whole court behind us, that we can move to the back, look at the opposition, look at the crowd, look at the sky, the net, and we have lots of other decisions we can make. So it's about being able to make really useful decisions, given that we can then compare what slow cooking is versus fast food.
Sam Brown:It's a really beautiful analogy. I mean it goes beyond the creative realm. It applies to life in general. I think anybody can take away from that.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, thanks, and I think, as photographers or anyone that's creative, as you rightly point out, because I think the thing about being a photographer for me is that anything that I'm challenged by or confronted by in life gets put under a microscope when I pick up a camera, so they're no different. It's literally holding up a mirror to what's going on. I think that's the opportunity. Whether that happens for everybody I don't know, but for me I know that that's definitely profoundly the case and really important and really important. And then so the decisions get to be things like I was talking to some I mentor quite a few people these days online and the conversation I had last week.
Simon Devitt:It's a little bit like cleaning out the kitchen or the scullery and it feels great because you've just created a whole lot of space around the things that were in there, instead of it just being wall-to-wall clutter, which kitchens can often be, particularly when you've got young kids and so it feels great when you've made that space around things. But it doesn't take too long weeks sometimes, maybe months if you're lucky for that to fill back up again. So if we have that ability to compare and understand that, we have the different choices to make around what is fast food and what is slow cooking. Then how are we creating space around those decisions we make, or simply even maybe holding space and not filling it in, consciously or otherwise, with something anything? So one of the challenges I bring to the people in my mentorship is that we have this opportunity to make some space and the temptation is to fill that in really quickly with something you know more Netflix, maybe a yoga class, if you're picking something that's maybe better for you than Netflix.
Simon Devitt:The objective of the exercise that I bring to them is that we're just holding the space, we're not filling it in, and that's really difficult because our temptation is to always consume more, do more, add more, be more Because we can, it's immediate, we can do that. We can do that Sometimes. I think it's a good way to exercise and subjugate our fast food lives and acknowledge this kind of slowness that's really valuable in life by asking some really useful questions like I don't know yet, and use that as a way to hold space and in a creative capacity. I think that's not only an opportunity, I think it's vital that we can do that.
Gerard Dombroski:Micro sabbaticals. I really like that analogy looking back and seeing a big, open tennis court behind you. It's this kind of unspoken, I guess, expectation to keep outputting and I think social media has a role to play in that like make a new project, get it photographed, put it up more and more, more. So you're like pumping out a huge amount of work, but it's, I think, just trying to get into the rhythm of stepping back every now and then and making sure you're doing what you actually want to be doing.
Simon Devitt:I agree completely, and I think it's not that fast food is a bad thing. I think we're just really good at that one thing, often at the expense of how else. Can we do this? If we take a slightly different perspective, which is what I think the opportunity is, then what does that look like if we just sit from the same perspective the whole time and we can do the fast things really well, really quickly. We're already good at that. But are we good at the slow stuff, like, are we good at really just holding space, taking time, doing things slowly, with a bit more consideration, a bit more consciousness around it? I think then we're doing something else and we're really able to jump between doing something quickly and then choosing another way to do it, in a way that's more appropriate for not everything being the same.
Simon Devitt:When we're busy, it seems to be that everything sort of feels bookended back to back and quite samey. And being busy is great, don't get me wrong. I'm really grateful for being able to work with an incredible number of very talented people. But in the same way that we know music, because of the silence between the notes, when it's busy it's just a noise, I think, and we need, we need another way to understand the world, to take a slightly different perspective. In the same way, if we were just driving a car the whole time, which is fun, love driving, but how different is that world when you're a passenger? In the same way, if we were just driving a car the whole time, which is fun, love driving, but how different is that world when you're a passenger, when you move one foot to the left, that experience is worlds apart. How two things can look really similar but be so completely different. And so I think it's those sorts of perspective shifts that become vital in any creative capacity, any creative pursuit, in any life. It is about life and living.
Sam Brown:These views, simon, are incredibly profound and thank you very much for sharing them. It would be really interesting and you've sort of touched on it in a way, I think but like how your personal and your life views, how they reflect in the way that you approach your work and even framing your shots and things like that as well, because it sounds like the way that you approach life is to try and provide space and breathe and, you know, look at it at a bigger picture and sort of beyond the realms of the norm. Maybe it's simplifying it too much, but how does that then transpose into your photography work?
Simon Devitt:It's lots of things that can you know for the sake of argument. It could be one thing, but I tend to think it's connected in lots of different facets of life and in some, in some way, it's probably a coping mechanism. You know what I mean. Like it's a, it's a way to find a solution, it's a way to explore, it's a way to find things out from a probably a very largely naive point of view, like a way of learning that says I don't know yet and that's okay, and learning by necessity, I think really really key, and maintaining those very high levels of curiosity that I know are really incredibly valuable. Well, to be honest, by now it's probably the only way I can do it. So it's, it's how I do it. It and that's how it occurs to me and that's the kind of realm I've explored in and from man, this is, this is epic.
Gerard Dombroski:What an epic yarn.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, I'd be really interested to know, just adding to that, if there was any sort of external influences that kind of led you to, to some of those kind of outlooks. I know you've. You've spent a lot of time overseas and you have the privilege of just seeing and meeting so many amazing people as a you know, throughout your career.
Simon Devitt:So, yeah, just be so interested to hear it's, um, I mean, it's always about the people right and and who we do surround ourselves with, and i've've mentioned two so far, but it's a cast of hundreds, isn't it? It takes a village always, and a myriad of people along the way friends, family. Sometimes people come into your life for only a really brief moment. I think of some people that probably had, you know, one or two encounters with, but they were really significant moments and really memorable for me. Some of them, some pretty terrific architects who have since passed on here.
Simon Devitt:You know, sir Ian Athfield had a huge impact on my life and how I look at what I do, but that's one person and he was significant and he was amazing, and his incredibly beautiful wife, widow Claire, is still around and remarkable. Yeah, you know, behind every great man you know, there's a great woman, and Cleo is certainly pretty great, or is, and so it's lots of people always, and where that starts and stops, who knows? It sort of blends beautifully into one big melting pot. But there are so many stories and so many people that go along with those stories.
Ben Sutherland:Does that include photography mentors as well as in other photographers? Or was your career more self-taught kind of, or just working with other architects or yeah, yeah, unusually.
Simon Devitt:I mean I had a little bit to do with some photographers along the way, but I'm probably still very stubborn. I kind of wanted to do it my way and make those mistakes. And, looking back, I think I assisted once for half an hour and really hated it, and he is a great guy, like you know. He's passed away since and he was a really terrific fashion photographer and lovely man and sadly his life ended well before it should have and sadly his life ended well before it should have. But that was my one brief assisting memory and probably more compelling for what it wasn't than what it was. You know what I mean in a weird way, and so I treasure that weirdly as well.
Simon Devitt:You know, amongst other things that have happened, and so I didn't have initially, early on, been a lot to do with other photographers. I had other friends that did other things that I was really more, probably more interested in, like sculptors, filmmakers, painters, and so I surrounded myself and I think the early influences for me were those people that did those things and also, you know, film makers at large and and painters through you know, seeing shows at galleries here and around the world and, um, buying lots of you know later on buying lots of other photographers work through their books, yeah, and I got a little bit carried away, so there's a couple of thousand of those. Now I'm not allowed to buy anymore. I'm allowed to sell one and replace it, and that's it. That's a good one and I love those books and I treasure them.
Simon Devitt:But at some point that influence and inspiration has to be not ignored but sat down, because I think at some point in any creative pursuit you've got to be your own inspiration yeah there's only so much you can do to and so much benefit you will get from looking at other people's work.
Simon Devitt:I mean, yes, it's important, but is it the only thing? And should there be a lot of it? I think there should be, you know there should be some, but it shouldn't be overwhelming. I think it's, then, about the making and reflecting. I've done a lot of writing, and I think that's been really important for me, you know, to get some of those thoughts down on paper out of my head. I know that what rattles around upstairs here is not real. It's not real until I speak it or I write it, and so it's been really useful for me to, you know, have those conversations with people and also write it down and make shitloads of mistakes along the way.
Simon Devitt:You know some stuff that would be so embarrassing I couldn't even tell you.
Simon Devitt:You know I did things like I sold cameras at a consumer level and to professionals after that, just doing things that I thought would help absorb or allow me to make decisions about.
Simon Devitt:What is it like being a photographer and doing things like printing film badly, but printing film and selling cameras and the last job I did, before I sort of pushed myself out the door was a night shift job printing police forensic photographs and looking back, that was pretty gnarly awful stuff to look at. It's quite the contrast. Bit of a contrast, yeah. But I always saw, you know, light at the end of the tunnel. I knew that wasn't going to be for long or forever. So I always sort of and I do now think any experience is an opportunity for something new, and so I really saw those forensic images as another way to tell a story. You know, from the very microscopic right up to the very broad view, and in that sense, in that context, nothing could be left out, otherwise that court case could be thrown out you know so from forensic photography, you know your involvement with sculptures and other artists and and things.
Sam Brown:what in film? What led you to architecture, where, particularly in our field, you're most well known now?
Simon Devitt:it's um.
Simon Devitt:Well, I have to go back a little bit further and that was when I you know, new Zealand being the way New Zealand is, everyone knows someone, so it's sort of one degree of separation, and I was quite keen on trying out what it would be like to photograph sport, and you know, in the very early days. And so what had led up to that was me walking the streets, really city avenues, rural back blocks, suburban cul-de-sacs, and just sort of observing and learning what you know, what does this all look like? And you know, the question never gets greater for me than I wonder what this will look like as a picture. And the grass has never got any greener ever. And so it was those really early days where I was like, well, that's really intriguing. I developed really high levels of curiosity really early on. And it went further into saying, well, what would you know, what would being a sports photographer look like?
Simon Devitt:And so somehow, for some reason, I was able to convince a sports photography agency that I should be at the america's cup in in 1995, san diego, my wife I'm sort of fucking boat race in my life. But here I am, you know, on this quest boat day, one of of of the semi-finals, I think it was, and there's three other photographers in the skipper and the seas were huge like just gnarly. They shouldn't have been racing, probably, but they did, and those three photographers were just sick as dog green sharing the toilet. Nothing could have gone worse for those guys. So I had the whole boat to myself on the skip. I could tell them where to go, what we're going to do.
Simon Devitt:I was just having a great time and that was all again 35 mil transparency Like I couldn't fuck that up. I mean, I certainly did some of those shots that kind of necessary anticipation for what's happening next. I had to learn really quickly on the spot how to make good of that situation and I think it's those really early days that set me up for what I do now and what I've done for you know, I think it's nearly 27 years now. I think it's nearly 27 years now. So it was leaving sport behind quite quickly because it felt a little bit like living out of a suitcase too much. I mean, I certainly live out of a suitcase quite a lot now, but it's a different, I think broader view on the world for me.
Simon Devitt:Looking at architecture, it draws in so many different fascinating aspects of life. So architecture allows me to look at a really big view, a big picture of what we're all up to. And again it's that slightly pulled back view on the human condition. I think and you know someone's said it way better than I'd ever be able to say it it's sort of that outward expression of what lies within, when we look at people's homes in particular. And so my curiosity is really about making pictures, that sort of fend off that camera's real desire to describe and look a little bit closer than that and try and suggest what it might be like to be there, how that feels. And so that's my position. That's where I sit with, looking at that house, those people in that house, that environment, that landscape.
Simon Devitt:And you know, yes, I've been to hundreds, maybe even thousands of other shoots before that one, but never that one. And so I turn up early and I leave late. And so I turn up early and I leave late, and in between I'm exploring, moment by moment, wondering what something will look like as a picture, and inviting in what Ath called so beautifully chance encounter and his influence and inspiration on me in terms of creating architecture. That did that and doing things like activating the edges was just so important, is so important to me now, but just struck me like a bolt out of the sky. It was just really, really important stuff. Athol's probably the most un-architect architect I'd ever met, you know, and I wouldn't be the first one to say that.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, yeah.
Simon Devitt:Special man.
Gerard Dombroski:I was quite struck when you did the photos for my place, just how patient you were. I've had like friends or something do photographs before and like sort of get there and you, you take it. It is kind of what it is, but like it was, it was pretty impressive watching you work and thank you like the weather changed quite a lot during that day and you'd sort of sit there and wait for the light, so that was pretty epic to watch actually. Oh, thanks.
Simon Devitt:I think that was my looking back at that shoot and that weather on that day. It was probably my favorite condition that it is changing all the time. You know, have that rich sort of you know intense new zealand sun coming through dark, rolling clouds. You know, for me that doesn't get any better than that because you are caused to wait and watch and listen and smell and just see what's going on and then maybe, maybe you take a picture because something caught your eye or, you know, you wondered what it might look like as a picture.
Ben Sutherland:So just zooming in on that excuse the pun what are some of the things that you kind of look at when you're picking shots? It'd just be good to know, from like a designer's perspective, having like a photographer come on board, if there's any sort of prep work that should be done. Or yeah, just a little bit about your process when you're actually shooting.
Simon Devitt:There's not a lot of thinking going on. I'll tell you that much. There's not a lot of thinking going on, I'll tell you that much. It's, uh, it's a lot of, um, I think, spontaneously reacting to moments, and a lot of people would say, you know, if you want to, you know, choose something that doesn't move like a house, and then you've got all all day, you know, and, and it's easier than, uh, animals or babies, but, um, I think there's a lot going on every moment, particularly with new zealand weather, and then if you add people to that who inhabit that space, um, or the environment around it, then there's a lot going on all the time. And if we're moving the whole time, then I think we're sort of missing out on a lot.
Sam Brown:You know, I certainly move during a shoot, there's no question, but I also stand still quite a lot, and I think that's probably what gerard observed it's interesting, simon, you describing your shoot at gerard's place and then also your process now, and it sounds like it's very much a reflection as well on your analog past. How much through these, through these shoots, are you taking photos as carefully as you would with an analog camera, or are you a little bit more trigger happy and then a lot of it happens in post yeah, and great question, sam.
Simon Devitt:I think if you weren't using the technology you'd be an idiot.
Simon Devitt:And some people have gone back to using film cameras too, and I still have some and I love them, and it is a different way of working, for sure, but I still work pretty close to how I worked then.
Simon Devitt:Um, there might be, it allows me to work quicker, I think, sam Sam is the way that I would describe it so that I'm able to explore more and quicker, and so that's how I see it and I think that's the opportunity. But I'm also really aware that I don't like paying people to do any retouching for me, so I really do the work at the time on the shoot. And so when I'm doing any proofing which I've been doing a bit today, and then maybe hand it over to Khan, who does all my retouching and has done for like 16 years, I'm not paying him extraordinary amounts of money. He's not cheap, so I do pay him fairly well, I think. But there's very little to do in post for the most part. There might be some necessary retouching, but largely there's really bugger all to do. I like kind of getting it right in the camera, because that's what I hate to do with film and I find that really satisfying.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, that's impressive.
Sam Brown:The people in the shots thing is an interesting one. I'm actually just above my computer here. I've got a series of photos of the Serpentine Pavilion in London over the years and the people comment that you made made me just quickly look at them and think and half of them are inhabited and half of them aren't. And it's interesting because you do see a lot of architectural photography that isn't inhabited, which is odd because all buildings are and they're designed to be, and it seems to me to be a necessity. But what's your, I guess? Be interested to know what your thoughts are on that.
Simon Devitt:Well, we live in a world where we have these enormous mortgages that you know. If I just think about the amount of interest I pay each year alone, it does my head in, so I try not to.
Simon Devitt:And so when I turn up at someone's house, I'm also aware they're probably going to be at work. You know that's not always the case and I love it when people are at home or in a building or at a school, which is often the case at a school to include them in at least some of the pictures, whether it's observing, naturally, what's happening in the house and I become hopefully invisible, or whether, in some instances, there is something that is set up to allow for something engaging to happen in that area at that time because of that light. So both things happen. Other times. It's really important to understand what something is by also understanding what it's not. So there can be and by virtue of being necessary, when I turn up to a house and no one's there, I still want to make pictures that give the sense of something has happened or is about to happen, and those can be pretty powerful moments and they don't have any big ones.
Sam Brown:That's so interesting yeah nice.
Simon Devitt:So both are really great. But whatever situation I find myself in, you know I want to make the most of that moment and that situation, because my clients have worked really hard for a number of years, often with some pretty brave clients whose dream has come true. Ultimately, they've created some pretty beautiful atmospheres for me to play in, you know, to see the light affecting that living room or that kitchen, that backyard in a certain way, and I feel that responsibility greatly, not in a way that constricts my creativity, but in a way that I'd say enhances it. It's like an active constraint that allows me to refine my view. That's the way I see it. It's a real honor for me. I just feel really lucky whenever I show up to these incredible projects, know, incredible projects where ultimately someone's dreams come true. You know it's pretty special.
Sam Brown:I mean you must have shot thousands through the course of your career. Now, do you have any standouts that you can pull out of your head in terms of projects?
Simon Devitt:Yeah, hard to have favourites. I mean, some projects certainly have more layers than others. You know what I mean, and there's something quite compelling about that. In terms of beauty, it's not a guarantee, because we also know that huge budgets don't always mean impeccable taste.
Simon Devitt:The fact is, guys, I'm not there to have an opinion either. I'm not being paid to have an opinion. No one gives a shit about what I think about those projects, except that I am present enough to make a series of beautiful pictures that reflect what's going on there and the beauty inherent in those things and the layers that show up. You know, sometimes there are multiple layers that show up and that's great. Other times very few layers show up. But you know, I'm still really present to making the most of whatever is there to make the most beautiful pictures or beguiling, hopefully, enticing suggestive pictures that I can.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, and you're obviously I mean your career speaks for itself. Really, your brand has just progressed a lot over the years. So, yeah, it'd be interesting to hear you know talking about your brand a little bit more and how you think that's kind of going and where you think it's going to lead you in the future.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, I think. Thanks for asking that, because it's not always easy to reflect from the inside out. It's often really good questions like that, ben, so I appreciate that. I think I've been really good at sowing seeds consistently over a long period of time and I've been willing to put in an immense amount of work at the same time and I continue to do that and I love it I've probably got better at being home more often now, which is good news for me and my family. So that part I love. It's that beautiful fight to be at home.
Simon Devitt:But counter to that is you know that I go to some pretty pretty goddamn beautiful places and get to hang out with some very cool people, and so, from from an early time in my career, I was able to be a photographer and that a lot of that meant, uh, the making of things and being a photographer for me. I really need to, for me to feel like I am a photographer and you really need to feel like I'm not just in the realm of pixels all the time. For me, photographs don't grow up dreaming about becoming pixels they just don't. And so to about becoming pixels they just don't. And so to really feel like a photographer, like I am a photographer, I need to be making, I need to be printing, I need to be making books.
Simon Devitt:And in 2011, or late 2010, I was given the opportunity to teach photography to architecture students at Auckland University. To teach photography to architecture students at Auckland University, and that was a glorious 10 years of really finding out the incredible privilege of what it is like to teach. But what I learned really quickly was, if you're teaching the right way, you're learning twice, and that's become a huge part of my brand, if we want to look at it as brand. But I think even greater than that, and again it's that fast food realm versus slow cooking, it's easy to confuse culture and brand. I think it's more important to look at things in terms of culture, if we can Culture and brand.
Simon Devitt:I think it's more important to look at things in terms of culture, if we can brand, in terms of a part of that culture, if enough time has played out. And so the teaching part for me, I couldn't be without now. I just love it, and that was, that was um, a huge amount of discovery in a relatively short amount of time. 10 years is quite, you know, a decent chunk of time, but I did a huge amount of exploring in that time and I was able to create a curriculum for those students that, for some reason, they let me do that, which was really interesting.
Simon Devitt:But they did that and I, you know, I didn't want to bore people shitless with ones and zeros and f stops and shutter speeds and god kill me, I'd just be asleep in five minutes. So I was more interested in um looking at, probably looking at who's showing up. I mean, yes, the camera, yes, making the pictures. But I think you know I can reflect on this pretty clearly now, but back then I was, you know, stumbling my way around, you know, the pictures, the clients, those moments, the coffees, the business, downstream, I would say, and then upstream who's showing up, like, are we able to make really clear enough distinctions to really understand what's behind those moments? We find ourselves in where we are curious, and I think they to one of the very first exercises that I created for those students at Auckland University and I don't think they really knew what they were in for. But the first exercise and it's one that I still do now and I find it hugely valuable and it's really quite well, it's deceptively simple, to the point where you go what's he even up to, that guy, and then you find out that it's incredibly frustrating and annoying. So you become you know these students become quite angry with, with men, frustrated, um, but then by the end of it they sort of see the point and the objective and and what happens, and the exercise is putting someone in a very public situation that's legal and safe, and with a camera and a lens, and they're not allowed to move from that spot, like at all. I can't walk away from that spot. You can sort of turn, you know, spin around or whatever. Sit down maybe if you really wanted to. You can't move from that spot for two hours. And would we purposely do that to ourselves ever? Probably no, because that's really weird and unusual. To ourselves ever? Probably no, because that's really weird and unusual, the benefit being that we live constantly in a state of motion, in a state of in order to, in a state of transition, almost like life is an airport. We very rarely stand still and notice what's happening around us rather than us happening in it.
Simon Devitt:David Trubridge, you know incredible lighting designer, innovator, gentleman, like amazing human, and a really early story he told me was about the time him and his family spent on some of the pacific islands and a boat builder, a waka builder, told him about being on those early boats that explored, you know vast oceans, in order to get from you know where they were to where they wanted to to go, or at least explore, not even knowing where they wanted to go, or at least explore, not even knowing where they wanted to go. And everyone on that boat had a job to do. And so everyone moved about the boat in order to get the job done, make sure they were moving safely through the ocean and get to where they intended to go, except for one person, and that was the navigator. So those people moving about the boat, the world occurred to them that they were moving through the world, which is not altogether unsurprising. So the navigator, who sat perfectly still and observed everything about the boat, all the subtlety of those things on the boat, like the water lapping up against the side of it, the way the moon glinted in the water, the sound of the wind quite a different read on being in one place, only because they were perfectly still. And so the world occurred to that navigator that the world was moving past them.
Simon Devitt:And that's a very subtle but important distinction I make about how I am when I pick up a camera on a shoot or I'm in a place or with family, you know in a moment, and so that standing still for two hours is deceptively simple. They're in a public place. The first thing they will feel is very self-conscious, because you're standing there like a dickhead, with your camera and all these people around, and you go. Oh cool.
Ben Sutherland:What's he doing? What's he doing Knob?
Simon Devitt:And so there's that, and that's predictable. The next part is why did Simon make me do this? I could kill him right now, and so that happens. And then some people get not everyone, as I've discovered, but most people get quite bored. They're like all right, seen it done, it took a few snaps, look at them, yeah well, if you take your phone, you're fired. What happens now and that's the objective is that we, beyond noticing those other things, what happens next? Noticing those other things, what happens next, and like any good book that we're reading or any you know any photo book worth its time being printed, the question is always I wonder what happens next.
Simon Devitt:And then you turn the page and that's where the rubber hits the road man, like if you're trying to tell a story with anything, with architecture, with sculpture, with photography. There's to be that level of curiosity, that level of fascination, I think and we live in a world where we're never bored We've always got a distraction. We've got our phones right there, our watches bottle of wine, netflix, whatever it is we can be distracted in a heartbeat and, being humans, we can justify that without even being consciously aware that we did that, even being consciously aware that we did that. And so the necessity to be bored is vital to any creative pursuit of anything, whether that's the making of things, living in life. And that's a creative pursuit, that's a creative act, whether you're making or not. But I think we need to be bored. It allows our minds to wander, and we, if our minds aren't wandering, they're just stuck in here and they're not being exercised. And I think it's so important, so vital, that we're able to exercise and let our minds wander.
Sam Brown:It's beautiful. It's actually made. Thank you, simon. That's a really beautiful explanation and sort of has made me think a little bit more introspectively about my approach as well. I know we're sort of running tight on time time, so it might be I'd say it'd be remiss of us to to end the chat without asking about your memes. And you've given us this incredibly detailed and beautiful and in-depth, deep, in-depth view on your life and your approach and your creative art and everything. So I've got to ask what's up with the memes?
Simon Devitt:and the way you asked it was never by design. Like it's kind of like putting cheese and timber together and I did see that sign. Like these guys are doing cheese and timber. That's quite special. Why they're doing that, I don't know. Anything can happen.
Simon Devitt:Sure, the memes? I think we find ourselves in a pretty, at times, serious world, and nothing more serious than when we struck COVID, too, like what was going to happen next. We had no clue and it was a pretty scary time, albeit when we reflect on being at home so much. It was pretty great too for some of us. We were lucky. Others were not so lucky. You know, people you know by the busload were dying too, so it was pretty awful. A lot of families struggled.
Simon Devitt:I'd been collecting because I, you know, like a lot of people, I love to have a good laugh, and I'd been collecting memes to share with friends for a long time before that probably.
Simon Devitt:You know, I look back to the camera roll and the, the screenshots to maybe 2011, something like that, and then covid. For some reason, I sort of thought, well, why don't I share those? A little bit further afield and in the way instagram was at the time and it's sort of changing a lot. Now. It's really easy to to share with friends and and other people on online um, all those sort of screenshots that curated, uh, funny bone view on on the world and there's some pretty, some pretty great memes. It's a really fun thing to share and memes are sort of made to be shared, or so I thought, until recently when someone did complain and that was, I think, then my, my view of the world changing around. It was something that I noticed and even though I tagged that person, they complained to Instagram and that was enough for Instagram to act on it and I thought, well, that kind of sucks Big time.
Simon Devitt:Because it wasn't just an account for memes. It was an account you know the front end business in the front and party in the back. You know what I mean. Like it was a serious photography account with a lot of archival merit and a lot of interviews with some amazing people through reading room and then in the stories you know some funny memes that would be there and then gone again. But the same guy, it turns out, who complained also then tried to blackmail me to try and get you know my account back and I was like well, no no, I won't be doing that.
Sam Brown:Just move on.
Simon Devitt:So move on and any new experiences and opportunity, you know, and albeit kind of annoying and you know I prefer it didn't happen it's also created a whole swathe of new opportunities and new conversations and new ways of looking at things that weren't there before. So not invited, not designed, but there it is.
Sam Brown:Yeah, nice.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, so I take it, we won't be seeing any more memes. Unfortunately, a lot of people like those well, not on that account.
Simon Devitt:They do and I do too and I love, uh, sharing them and um, um, I miss that. Like the world suddenly got quite serious again and not very funny very quickly and I it pissed me off.
Sam Brown:Yeah, it's real shame really. It's sort of that joy is immediately stripped out by malicious intent.
Simon Devitt:Yeah.
Sam Brown:Yeah.
Simon Devitt:But there you go, we're. We're in control only ever of our effort and our attitude, and that's it, and everything else is. You know, whatever. That is yeah, and this is one of those moments where I certainly didn't get to choose.
Sam Brown:But follow SD underscore meme lord on Instagram.
Gerard Dombroski:Meme account. I'm joking.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, I was warned by someone who used to work for Meta that they are very quickly and I did notice it in the weeks that came after that account being shut down that the way they allow people to share things is changing really quickly. So you know it's got to be tough for them, right, like in terms of avoiding litigation and future retrospective litigation, I mean imagine being in that world. I mean like that, yeah, that'd be hard work, yeah, so I kind of get also. You know, life just got a bit more serious.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Gerard Dombroski:Oh, it's been amazing Any kind of last words of wisdom.
Ben Sutherland:I guess before we kind of wrap things up and let you go, yeah.
Simon Devitt:I brought water to the game and apparently it's about beer, so I'm it's friday.
Ben Sutherland:We normally record on a tuesday, you know, and it's uh, it's friday afternoon, so all right, I feel lucky and I I've never had a foursome before, so I'm really thank you first time, pretty great. I don't know.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, thank you, gents. Loved every second. You know some pretty great questions, so thank you.
Sam Brown:Yeah thank you, incredible Thank you so much.
Ben Sutherland:It's been extremely insightful. Yeah, it's crazy, when you enter a conversation like this, you think it's going to go one way.
Gerard Dombroski:But yeah, sorry, you go, gerard I was just saying I'm a big fan of, like the awareness of where you're coming from and like the intentionality behind it and the being able to step back and sort of reassess things is pretty impressive. I think, like architecture owes a lot to photography, like there's no architecture history to the masses anyway without photography. We as architects are indebted to photos and are collectors of photos, lovers of photos, yeah, and we'll always Great point. So it's pretty awesome to have somebody like yourself that comes at it very intentionally. And we talked the other day about design having lines of inquiry. I think good design shares a deeper thing you're searching for and I think your continuality of your conversation, like there's a lot you're very particular about and looking to and referencing back to. So I think it's very much the same sort of design process. I think, or in my mind I feel like a similar thinking of tying things together, whether that's history.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, it's really interesting Et cetera, so pretty epic.
Simon Devitt:Yeah, well, you know, I've always been aware, if nothing else, of that relationship has become, even as time has gone on, more important to me, and at a really base level. The buildings don't travel, but the pictures do. So the pictures are really important and they I don't use this word lightly they need to show or convey in some sense what it felt like to be there. The camera will absolutely try and take care of how, how it looked and describe the shit out of it, but a really good photographer of architecture, I think, is able to convey how it felt to be there, and I think that's vital.
Sam Brown:Yeah, awesome Cool.
Ben Sutherland:All right, simon thank you very much.
Sam Brown:I am going to have to go, I have to pick up my daughter from daycare, but that was incredible. Thanks for your time and your insights.
Simon Devitt:Pleasure chaps. It would be nice to hook up again over.
Ben Sutherland:Don Brodsky Sounds perfect.