Design Principles Pod
Architecture. A hot topic, a buzz word, a realm for the rich and famous, or the thing that your step uncle does? We will be unpacking the good, the bad and the downright reality of the architectural and construction industry. With insights from industry professionals and personal anecdotes from our three hosts Ben, Gerard and Sam, you will be given a look behind the closed pages of those fancy looking moleskins. Tune in and redline out.
Design Principles Pod
Real World Education: A Conversation with Kevin Hui of Archimarathon
Ever wondered how architecture can be more than just buildings? Join us as we chat with Kevin Hui of Archimarathon, an architecture tour curator, educator, YouTuber and social media savant. Kevin shares his inspiring journey from creating architecture running tours to collaborating with Andrew Maynard on a YouTube channel, especially during the pandemic. Get ready to explore the critical issue of Melbourne's declining studio culture and discover Kevin’s innovative co-working studio space designed to revive camaraderie and bridge the gap between academic learning and real-world practice.
Kevin and our hosts dive into the necessity of making architecture communication accessible to a broader audience. Learn the benefits of fostering open and relatable dialogues about architecture, which help students and enthusiasts alike to appreciate the human side of acclaimed architects. This episode is packed with insights on how to make complex architectural ideas more relatable and engaging for everyone.
From spontaneous, humor-infused architecture tours to the discrepancies between architectural photography and real-life experiences, we cover it all. Kevin takes us behind the scenes on the logistics of running dynamic architecture tours that blend infotainment with education. We also discuss the evolving methods of teaching architecture, the irreplaceable value of experiencing architecture in person, and the importance of genuine interactions in digital content creation. Tune in for an episode brimming with authenticity, education, and a fresh perspective on architecture.
If you are interested in joining one of the acclaimed Archimarathon tours you can find out more at, https://www.archimarathon.com/, or check out their amazing YouTube series at, https://www.youtube.com/c/archimarathon.
Episode Chapters:
0:00 - Reviving Architecture Studio Culture
12:48 - Improving Architecture Communication Accessibility
18:11 - Architectural Tours
28:57 - Exploring Discrepancies in Architecture Perception
40:21 - Modern Education Critique and Collaboration
55:57 - Interviews
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If you wish to contact us hit our DMs or email us on info@designprinciplespod.com
Hello everyone, thanks for tuning in again to the Design Principles podcast with myself, gerard, Ben and Sam. Today we are talking with a bit of a legend. He's an architecture tour curator, an educator, a YouTuber. Alongside Andrew Maynard, he outputs a lot of great content online which you should definitely check out. He is Kevin Hui of aki marathon. Aki marathon, let's get into it. Kevin, do you want to give us like a little intro on who you are and what aki Marathon is, for those who have no idea?
Kevin Hui:Well, aki Marathon originally is about running tours and traveling to sea buildings, and hence the Aki Marathon part. I usually plan these super dense architecture tours and hence the marathon Lots of walking, lots of public transport. So that's the starting point. And then we started that in 2018. And then andrew maynard from austin man architects, friend of mine, decided to um, let's do youtube in 2020, just in around february, all right, um, and the idea was oh, yeah, we'll make more content, we get paid to travel, we're going to make it big and uh, get sponsors and get sponsored to travel and make more content. Uh, and then this little thing called uh I don't know you may heard of it covid got in the way they managed to make its way over the Dutch, yeah.
Kevin Hui:Yeah, so yeah, we ended up making videos without being overseas and just started talking about everything architecture and architecture education-related issues and then we've been travelling again and then 2022, this space became became available, which is right next to awesome man architects office. So we started a studio space to try to bring back studio culture for students in melbourne awesome. So this is like a co-working space studio that, um, that's trying to bring back what used to be studio culture which people from from overseas, especially in America and Europe, they're just going. How can you have architecture education without a studio space? But, yeah, this is the reality in Melbourne and that's what we're trying to do.
Gerard Dombroski:How did you guys identify that sort of need? Was that interaction with Archie Marathon online?
Kevin Hui:No, it's just. I've been teaching for a long time so I can see the sort of the death of the architecture studio culture or the lack of it. So students just go home after uni and just work by themselves, rather than the camaraderie that happens, conversations, a little soft skill conversation that happens in studio spaces, rather than all they think about is just their own project. It's always about a conversation with others yeah and you know that's super important.
Kevin Hui:When you go out and work. You need to have that ability to just ask questions when it's needed. You can just this kind of handy just to look over someone's shoulder and go hey, you've been staring at that screen for three hours, what exactly are you doing?
Kevin Hui:yeah and then everyone just going here. There's a quicker way to do this. Let's uh. Yeah, what are you trying to achieve? And you know, having that conversation and just having removing yourself from that, uh, that single-minded yeah definitely helps with learning new software and that sort of thing as well it's interesting that you say that, uh, in Europe and in the States and things, they've got a bit more of a studio culture and less so in Australia.
Sam Brown:I kind of feel like we had a bit of a studio culture here, but maybe not to the extent that studio culture used to be. Is it worth sort of maybe outlining the way that education does run there in Australia, or maybe particularly in Melbourne?
Kevin Hui:Well, it's a big money-making business, isn't it? Now just the university. Just think all the spaces are bookable and they can use for teaching, rather than a space just given to students and go you work here.
Gerard Dombroski:Oh wow, so they have no dedicated space of their own? Oh, that's crazy.
Ben Sutherland:No, that's wild, yeah that is a shame I mean, there are some spaces, but then there's no culture, there's no, you know, conversation, that we see, yeah you know, whereas here we have got people from different universities, different year levels, working cool oh man, yeah, was going to ask if it was tied in with any university, but I guess it's just more of like a student benefit of anything.
Kevin Hui:Yeah, yeah, and it's also tied in with practice. We just literally sorry, I was like also made architects, decided to have a design meeting over in our space, so and invited everyone else to to join in, just to make the design better. So there was a conversation with practice. Basically just seeing that you know, because that's how often you learn is through osmosis.
Sam Brown:Yeah, yeah, yeah cross-pollination is so important, particularly for students. I mean, like we we're well, we're a very small practice but we have graduates come through and sort of teach them up through that process, but it's quite formalized. You know, I think having that little drop in ability to a professional practice, particularly as a student, is so critical to understanding how architecture works in the real world. I don't know what it's like there, but Gerard and Ben all attest to this. I mean, architecture school taught us a lot of things critical thinking, design, all that sort of stuff but it didn't really prepare you for architecture or being an architect, I should say.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, there's definitely a leap between the two. So I think like imagine that if architects came in and had design meetings in studio, that would be. I think that would blow students' minds. Unreal projects, yeah.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, I think our university we went to all three of us went together at Victoria University in Wellington there, but I think their studio culture was quite strong, or back in our year anyway, and I certainly am still trying to bring some, some of the that, the that culture into my day-to-day practice. Uh, just, I don't know, and now it's like come down to if we can like catch up for morning tea and have a bit of a design session here and there, or I don't know. It's a lot harder, especially because we're, you know, not exactly most the time we're just working by ourselves. So interacting with other architects is a huge bonus really.
Gerard Dombroski:Back to that isolation. Me and Gordon Young lived and breathed studio. It was some epic times that I look back on with quite a lot of fondness.
Kevin Hui:Yeah, I think we're sort of older generation. We went through those things and I remember there was a 25 year anniversary from University of Tasmania, where Andrew studied, and they were having a gathering here, the reunion, and then some of the students were sitting here going, oh my god, can we, can they think of? Would they ever have like photos and memories like you know those guys had back in the day at uni? So now they just they don't. There's not much memory being formed such as the things that you actually happens in the studio and it's kind of tight-knit community. Now it's just a course, they just do stuff. Yeah, where do they?
Ben Sutherland:learn all their model-making skills.
Sam Brown:Or get the person with small hands to do the difficult model-making for you.
Gerard Dombroski:The learning of software was a big one I found in the studio. Definitely Some of those learning those programs are quite complex.
Ben Sutherland:I still miss that for sure. I'm like, oh, if only there was someone to uh, you know, tell me how to do this crazy scheduling or something like that.
Gerard Dombroski:You know, it's so key how does, how does the space work um from the uh financial? So?
Kevin Hui:it's a bit like a co-working. Yeah, it's a bit like a co-working model, but we've kind of dropped it quite a lot pricing-wise. So, yeah, they just pay for it's about currently $19 a week. What?
Ben Sutherland:Man take my money.
Kevin Hui:It used to be a lot more. Yeah, it used to be a lot more, but it's still like people paying and they're lucky. It's like selling an iPad. I think a lot of students are still not getting the idea of, like you need to be here. If you're doing uni work at uni, you'll be doing uni work at home. You're missing the point.
Sam Brown:Yeah, yeah, are you noticing? I mean, are you noticing a difference between the students that are using studio and students that aren't? In terms of like work outcome, design, direction?
Kevin Hui:learning, I think the ones who are actively here. They involve the critical thinking and discussing others' projects. At first they were going, oh, but I'm spending all this time on others' projects. And I said, well, you choose to engage in that conversation because you are learning from it. You know you do, and that's why they get kind of addicted in that conversation. And, yes, I think there's a lot more objectivity to be able to stand back and look at a task that's doing and think, well, what, what's the outcome, what's the end outcome we're trying to achieve, instead of at the moment, now, everything's so prescribed you have to. You know they're just doing these assessments and constantly just doing a thing handed in, doing a thing handed in and doing a thing handed in and not thinking about a big picture like what is the purpose of that, and so, yeah, they're able to look at that because they look at someone else and think, okay, well, what are we doing? But what's the end result we're trying to get to? What's the quickest way to get there? How do you iterate quickly?
Sam Brown:As well for students. I mean, you're learning your own design voice, you're learning how to design all these things, and I think having that depth of knowledge around you or that depth of others' experiences around you is just going to ultimately make you a more well-rounded designer rather than, I imagine, based on the system that you sort of described, you have people that will come in first year with a certain idea of what they want to be as a designer and leave after five years having never changed, which is quite uh interesting and also, I think, uh disappointing. Really what?
Kevin Hui:ultimate goal for design education, I guess, is to be able to critique yourself yeah, which is super hard, we all know how hard that is. But if they don be able to critique yourself yeah, which is super hard, we don't know how hard that is. But if they don't practice critiquing others, which is a lot easier and to see and to rationally look at critical thinking, and how do you actually simplify and understand that you're not going to make that step? It's just easier to practice on others, eventually be able to do it to yourself, and also that that process is about learning to step away from your own design to your own ego and look at what someone, when someone else, is doing, and trying to find clarity in that. And that's what I learned, I guess you know, as an educator that's. I learned a lot of this stuff after I left uni, really just to realize how valuable critique is as a, as a method of learning really.
Sam Brown:Yeah, and are you having like sole practitioners or professionals come in and use this space as well, Because I can imagine that they'd still benefit from it massively.
Kevin Hui:Yeah, we have Open Corner. We have also got Optics and Architects working there as well at the moment. But yeah, mainly it's studio space and drinks. Often I invite friends in industry to come in and have a conversation with the students here.
Ben Sutherland:And so what are you? Are you predominantly doing? You know, organizing archi-marathon stuff there as well, or? Yeah, that's the main goal.
Kevin Hui:Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's the main, the main goal. Yeah, that's what. Yeah, that's yeah, trying to keep this place afloat and spending time with the students when needed and, um, yeah, making content and, uh, planning tours.
Gerard Dombroski:Basically, yeah there's a nice little and I should be going out there and getting sponsors there's a nice little relationship between all the parts that I quite like, like the, and then you kind of have this ability with to communicate your intent behind archie marathon as well through your youtube like yeah, it's education and social engineering yeah, it it's brilliant Because we do that with our tours as well.
Kevin Hui:We get quite a mix of people practitioners and students and enthusiasts and we make sure that there's a conversation at the end of most days and everyone has a voice and at the end of it, like the students really do gain a lot of confidence in just realizing some of the award-winning architects are just other human beings and can have a decent conversation about it and knowing a sort of mechanism, how to actually have a critical conversation about architecture as well. And enthusiasts sometimes they're super sharp.
Sam Brown:It's amazing what they say and what they see as well I feel like they'd almost be less hindered by fears of like making a critical point. You know their likes and dislikes, I imagine, be far more prevalent than ours. I feel like we quite often are a bit cagey to make a true criticism yeah, um for multiple reasons yeah, is
Sam Brown:that because you don't want to get criticized yourself, sam I think it's more that we have a very strict code of ethics which sort of limits that, particularly in new zealand, that like you know that, uh, you, that a true open criticism, particularly of professional work, is sort of frowned upon here, which?
Kevin Hui:makes things a little bit difficult. At the same time, architects are usually pretty damn critical of that, which is part of the problem, and that's why we have a no negativity policy in our social media. We're trying to make sure we talk about and explain to people what's great about these buildings. We see we're trying to pick good ones and why design and architecture matters, as opposed to we can always be critical about oh, that doesn't work, this, that and there's plenty of that stuff online. I don't think that's actually very healthy for the state of profession. You know, we really need to be explaining. To lay people like what what's great?
Ben Sutherland:yeah, yeah, I remember I designed this building once and it made it into a magazine and reading some ladies comment was just like what's so great about this? It's just a box with a window.
Gerard Dombroski:It's so funny. Instagram is awesome for us.
Kevin Hui:I mean, yes, the social media. Obviously, there is a lot of negative comments, as usual, and, yeah, certain platforms TikTok tend to be worse. Instagram is better and it's interesting that we are getting messages of people that they're not into architecture but they really appreciate some of the things that they've been seeing and learning about. And, of course, we still get the negative ones. But, yeah, it's good that we're slowly turning people over.
Gerard Dombroski:I just think that the communicating architecture to everyone is awesome and I think so necessary and something that I don't think we do a lot in new zealand, like we often communicate architecture to each other and we'll buy magazines made for architects and yeah, within their realm of architecture or architects yeah, but.
Kevin Hui:Yeah, we're very we use very esoteric language as well. You know Aki speak, which makes it quite inaccessible to the public. Yes, and when you look at science, you know they have complex ideas, you know, and then they have these amazing science communicators. We've got Professor Brian Cox and Neil Grassey Tyson and those people are explaining very complex ideas to the public and making it accessible. And I think architecture we need that. We're actually pretty bad communicators, yeah.
Sam Brown:Yeah, we get very caught up in our own world, that's for sure.
Kevin Hui:So it's great that you guys are doing podcasts and stuff and trying to reach out.
Sam Brown:Well, I mean, yeah, that was one of the ideas behind us starting the podcast was to make architecture just more accessible to everybody really, because exactly the point that we've all just made is it's elitist within itself in a way. Like you know, we sort of just talk about architecture to other architects and, yeah, it's a little bit hard for the general public to grasp what it is we do beyond the realms of shows like Grand Designs and things like that, which don't always, you know, paint us in the best light either. So I mean, I really what you guys are doing, I mean I massively appreciate and I actually really like I was watching your um episode on new york the other day. I was there last year, maybe not the same. You guys must have been there recently, were you, or?
Sam Brown:yeah, yeah, but there was also the one that was actually filmed last year you're probably there around the same time that I was, it was stonking hot and you know, I think it was just the reality of visiting a place and interacting with it you just portrayed really well, you know, like a. I mean, you're obviously architects and you're critical of work and you know you're sort of interacting in an architectural way, but it's so easily relatable to the general public and how they'd interact with the space as well. I thought that was really good.
Kevin Hui:Thank you. Yeah, we actually do most things one take. There's no script, we just go okay, let's go, let's talk.
Sam Brown:Nice, I like that. I like that honesty. Otherwise, you can tell when things are scripted. Yeah.
Gerard Dombroski:I think the use of humor as well is quite cool and is, I think, a very powerful tool in communicating, like getting people to actually listen to things.
Kevin Hui:Well, yeah, again, we look for things like infotainment. You know Top Gear, for example Great show, you don't have to be into cars to like it. In fact, at the end of it you go, oh, it's a great show, but I learned about cars, so I think that's, that's the model that we, we look to, um, as a, as a way to talk about architecture, just like two idiots walking around talking about stuff and being idiots and then, oh, architecture happened to be in it.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, that's brilliant Jeremy Clarkson, sure he can make TV.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, he's a master, isn't he? Clarkson's fun, clarkson's fun? Yeah, it'd be great to hear a little bit more about some of your upcoming endeavours, some of the tours.
Kevin Hui:Tours.
Ben Sutherland:How do you even decide where you're going to go? Is it kind of just like a passion like oh there's some amazing architecture here, or a personal preference Densities.
Kevin Hui:Density is usually something that I go for, like the first tours that I ran internationally was spain and portugal um, one of them, and then china was another one, because you get such amazing density, amazing layering, old and new and great food. Uh, it's usually the choice. And then I did finland, because I know finland really really, really well and people like Finland architecturally yeah, it's amazing how popular Finland tour is. And Japan. So, yeah, I've got two Japan tours planned, the same as this year's Japan tour next year in January. So that's sort of Tokyo, osakaaka, kyoto, just seeing sort of overview.
Kevin Hui:And then I've got probably for europe next, uh, june, july, we have two tours back to back, so it's going to be in netherlands and then probably about 10 days and then 14 days Germany, yeah, and then it's September because of the expo next year in Osaka. So hopefully we'll do that. It's not too hot in September and it finishes in October, so let's just do September what I call the deep cuts and B-sides. So it's Osaka for the expo, but also some of the other places and cities and places that is not on the classic tour. So this is like you've been to Japan before, we're just going to go and look for a bit harder to get to things.
Sam Brown:Cool, and how many people do you generally take on the tours?
Kevin Hui:I think we've worked out. The optimum is probably about 14 of us, including Andrew and I, so about 12. Yeah, I think it's just the right size. We pushed it a little bit too big in Finland to be 17 of us and the dynamics just isn't quite right. But yeah, 12 is, I think is the sweet spot.
Gerard Dombroski:So you're filming these at the same time, or like these are separate?
Kevin Hui:Trying. Yeah, the idea was that we'd just go and tour and then film, but I'm usually just so busy trying to organise and run the tour, my brain is not in that filming space. Yeah, and then there's a question of do I film it vertically for the reels or do I go horizontally instead? Of cameraman because horizontal is youtube, so that takes a lot more. Yeah, well, that's, that is it. I've done everything with this that's so cool. Yeah, battery pack you don't need anything else nowadays.
Ben Sutherland:That's it technology yeah, it's crazy, must be super hard, I can imagine quite stressful to organize, do you? Generally? Just how do you go about reaching out to some of these spaces or some of these people?
Kevin Hui:um, some of them are, oh my god, japan, all the opening hours. So I know At least how to jigsaw, puzzle all together In terms of dates and what have you. Well, a lot of them are literally Just like what I do the things you just stumble across, you just walk in. There were a few things that were specially booked to get to because they wouldn't let you just walk in, that I know, like the Kate Plaza, a workshop by Junya Ishigami, we were able to organize Koshino House by Tadao Ando that was open, which is now a gallery, but otherwise everything is. It's no real booking, only the rare ones. And yeah, you know, sometimes it's a little bit too hard to try to book everything, and then it, yeah, yeah, it doesn't allow for the flexibility sometimes yeah I was gonna I was gonna say does it, does it yeah, it would, if I worry it's
Kevin Hui:pretty well churned, yeah, I mean you look at day one. This is pretty hectic.
Sam Brown:That's crazy.
Kevin Hui:That's day one. That's day two.
Ben Sutherland:There must be 50 different spots on day two, maybe A lot, yeah yeah. All right.
Kevin Hui:But then if you've been to Japan, you know, like Omotesando, it's like yeah, there, there's another one, there's another one. It's right next to each other and there's not much you can see like, yeah, it's, it's there, it's a shop, okay. So it, some of those ones are just like bang, bang, bang. Uh, some of the other ones will. We can go in and enjoy and spend a bit of time. So really it's playing by ear. It's really curation, because it's not about the list. It is the list but also just knowing the research and going. Okay, if we have to skip something, what will you skip? And then which one you need to spend more time in? And sometimes it's serendipity, so you know, suddenly you walk up and then they go.
Kevin Hui:Oh, someone comes out and they go hey, hey, do you want to check this bit? Out, yeah, like that's not usually open to the public it's like great, please, that's awesome, cool. Then it ends up. You know that's what happens. So it's designed in a certain certain looseness to to do that as well. But at the same time, you know, I just hate the fact that. Oh, they come back and say that thing was just around the corner.
Ben Sutherland:I did, yeah, definitely, I had a little architecture tour of uh tokyo by myself, but I wasn't as organized as as you obviously are. So you'd like open up your map and you'd be like, oh you know, I could walk there and then walk there, and then walk there what you don't realize is how massive tokyo actually is and you spend half the day walking just to the first destination yeah, yeah, and there's so many things you go to, you go.
Kevin Hui:Oh, was it worth it.
Sam Brown:Yeah, I guess, like over the years now you'll be slowly curating a like a pretty good, concise like list, did I mean? Like obviously it's new for everybody on the tours? What about for yourself and andrew? Does it get tiresome looking at the same buildings?
Kevin Hui:oh well, andrew, definitely it's his. Uh, he has very short attention span so and uh, yeah, he gets bored pretty quickly. So I don't know how it is, in terms of repeating things, that he did do the repeat of finland this year, so he was all right, he survived nice.
Ben Sutherland:Do you guys have like themes often, or do you kind of just, is it, the theme is kind of this, the city. I always thought it would be awesome to tackle projects. You know, when you're like trying to learn something about a particularly, say sustainability or or concrete or something like that, and then you just all you want to do is like go and visit 20 buildings of uh, you know a good um example? Um, do you have that sort of thing or was it?
Kevin Hui:whatever you can fit in, uh, well, I think, whatever you can fit in, I think you know again it's the same thing like but that was just around the corner, like why would you go all the way to see that and not see that? But yes, often there is a ongoing theme. For example, in finland, most people think it's a timber buildings and stuff, but then it's a lot of really, really good concrete. We had a builder on the tour and he was just yeah, he was expecting just timber buildings, but he was surprised the quality of concrete buildings in finland, which most people don't know about.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, that's awesome good to hear a builder getting out there as well, I've got to say yeah, yeah, yeah, we get pretty interesting mix of people, yeah um that ishigami plaza.
Gerard Dombroski:Is that the university, one with the holes?
Kevin Hui:yep yeah, I'm hoping to have that out as a youtube episode, hopefully hopefully awesome.
Gerard Dombroski:Um what? What did you think of it in person? Because I'm I love, love ishigami and like very into how it's pretty amazing, um, but okay, this is being negative.
Kevin Hui:Yeah, it is spectacular space, just to see that being used. But uh, yeah, it's just like things in japan sometimes, just how it sits against other things and there's some other details. It's like, oh, is that it? Yeah it's not as japan is not as finished as I think most people see it. You know some of the stuff you go, oh, is that? Is that the door? Is that it?
Sam Brown:yeah I'm sure you've seen that yeah, a bit better than in real life.
Kevin Hui:Yeah. So you know, there are moments you thought it would be like so perfectly finished, and then it's like, yeah, the aspects of it that's perfectly finished, and there's stuff that just feels like clumsy. More, something like the junctions or yeah, I mean the doors are great and yeah.
Sam Brown:Yeah, I remember going making an effort to go out to the Gertz collection by Herzog and then Muran in Munich. It was for a long time one of my favourite buildings, but I went there in the depths of winter and I hadn't actually realised until visiting it in person that the facade was timber yes, most people think it's concrete.
Sam Brown:I always thought it was concrete. But I'm there in the middle of winter and it was sort of looking pretty weathered, pretty tired and I was, like quietly disappointed. I was just like I built this thing up to be so big in my head and then it just sort of looked a bit drab.
Sam Brown:And I was like, like oh, it was the early work there is in the early 90s that this design does, and then there's a huge extension underneath yeah, I mean, it's still an absolutely incredible gallery and an amazing piece of architecture, but it just wasn't quite what you'd sort of imagined from all the photography that you'd seen.
Kevin Hui:Yeah, having said that, this, uh, I took andrew there many years ago in fact, that's when he coined the term archaea marathon, because it was in middle winter and you know, he came on one of my own tours. Uh and um, yeah, it's like in the middle of a blizzard he goes. This is like a marathon it's an archaea marathon, uh, but yes, uh, but yes I time, because I actually in my itinerary I write down sunrise, sunset times.
Gerard Dombroski:Oh nice.
Kevin Hui:So knowing, for example, the sun long, good I would think, okay, when does the sun set in Germany around that time? So, because you know it glows at night. So, picking the right time to see the day and it sort of gets dark, and see the night, but that would be something I would do yeah, there's definitely a benefit there of doing the tour, because most of us learn architecture or photos seeing a building oh, it's great when you see things that are better than the photos, and that's often the case.
Kevin Hui:Any, any, standouts um, oh, they're too many, too many to mention. Um, and the things you just didn't even know existed and like, wow, and usually the local ones that you kind of never heard of. I mean alto, for example. Everyone goes to finland because of our alto and then you get so Alto'd out. It's like, yeah, there's some good ones, but they're not all that great and there's some really amazing stuff you've never heard of and it's like why didn't we know about this? But oftentimes, yeah, there are photos that look really good and then in real life it's like, oh, is that it? It's a lot of art, daily building. Of the years that we've been to, it was by far the worst building.
Gerard Dombroski:Oh wow, it was crazy Interesting.
Kevin Hui:That we saw. Yeah, and that's not me saying it. That's some of the students going wow, is that it? Why are we spending time here?
Sam Brown:That's fascinating, eh, and interesting that I mean so often projects, particularly international awards, are judged off photographs. I mean judging panels can't fly the globe to see everything, yeah, but you can't experience architecture like that. It's such a tactile art form, you know. Yeah, it's quite interesting hearing that to be the case in reality. For you guys is sort of that sort of level of disappointment.
Kevin Hui:Well, it is the social media space as well, isn't it? Like a lot of students look to now, it's just the. They're even trying to make renders and things you know for Instagram.
Sam Brown:Yeah.
Gerard Dombroski:It's pretty big in the marketing world, isn't it?
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, yeah, I've always wanted to do one of those tours and they just sound so cool. I guess the experience pays for itself. Really, in terms of design, would be, you know, the best, best form of education, isn't it?
Kevin Hui:yeah, yeah, it's also quite a refreshing thing to just remind yourself like what you're in for from an architect's point of view, because you know when you're just deep, every day, you're just working away. You know you're not, you don't, you don't have that kind of luxury. I keep saying it's like chefs, you know um, you just need to go out and eat try some different restaurants after a while, rather than just working and working on it.
Ben Sutherland:Do you do any little micro local tours as well?
Kevin Hui:I used to do interstate ones like Sydney and Brisbane. I haven't done that for a while. I kind of retired Sydney because I did a few and I got pretty bored of it. But, Australia's got some great architecture. I should be, yeah, bored of it, but Australia's got some great architecture.
Gerard Dombroski:I like those little videos you and Andrew do on individual houses and stuff, like some of them has been Andrew's houses. I think I used to watch his YouTube videos when I was at architecture school and I remember thinking that that was such like a brilliant distilled little micro grand design episodes and that's why nobody else did them. So I'm glad they've been reincarnated.
Sam Brown:And that was sort of before the power of social media as well, Gerard.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, power of social media as well, gerard.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, power of youtube yeah it would be helpful just critiquing your own, doing your own kind of walkthroughs post construction. I can imagine that would be super interesting, like oh, didn't expect that to come out like that. Or you know, this is a lot better than I thought it would be, or it would be a lot of fun.
Kevin Hui:Yeah. Well, they're not things you would say and show, yeah, you know, quietly just thinking God, you know how you get so fixated over a thing that just didn't happen the way you thought it was going to happen. Even though it's great, no one else cares, yeah, but for you it's like, oh, that's the biggest sticking point.
Sam Brown:It's, but for you it's like oh, that's the biggest sticking point. Yeah, the amount of times that you notice a defect or something that's wrong, that nobody else does, and you mention it to someone and they're like why did you tell me that? I know it's so funny.
Ben Sutherland:No one else can even see them, but you just get addicted and fixated on these little things. Yeah, I don't know if they're made up or not, it's pretty funny.
Sam Brown:It's like being back at university and I remember editing renders and you'd be in Photoshop down to the pixel changing colors and you're like no one's going to notice us.
Kevin Hui:Well, that's actually something we do in the studio because we have this amazing projection wall that's really big and it's a whiteboard as well. It's magnetic. So they're working on stuff. We always go what's the scale, what's the drawing, what scale are you going to be outputting? So we're forcing students to output stuff to scale so they can look at it and go okay, now sit back, this is how they're going to see it. Do you see any of the stuff you're drawing?
Gerard Dombroski:No, then it's going to waste your time.
Kevin Hui:Because, unfortunately, time is something we waste a lot of as architects, unfortunately and it's kind of cultivated early on from university. Not because we're not hardworking, I think we've just misguided how we spend the time. Again, it's not about time management either. This is actually it's a bigger picture than time management. It's actually understanding what you actually need to do.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah.
Kevin Hui:And how much you actually need to do.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, definitely.
Kevin Hui:And this is something that's dawned on me and some of the students have actually been saying, uh, and some of the students actually been saying it. Some of the students who went here, um, are telling others, like it's at the university level, your product is 2d because that's all you do. It's really presenting a scheme and most of it is just 2d. It's a graphics, even as a 3d image of something.
Kevin Hui:It's a graphics, even if it's a 3D image of something it's a 2D image and it's hard to wrap your brain around it because you think everything is 3D but it's actually not. It's actually a thing on paper or on the screen. And so what do you need to do to get to that? It doesn't mean the computer program is going to do it. It could be Photoshop, it could be masking out something.
Gerard Dombroski:It could be photoshop, it could be masking out something, could be a bit of liquid paper, could be anything. Yeah, that's cool. I quite enjoyed doing those 24-hour design competitions during university, kind of like taught you a little bit to prioritize certain things yes, yeah, it's amazing what you can good plan 24 hours yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, the whole time and good bonding. You're living in the studio, you know?
Sam Brown:yep, yeah yeah, do you run any competition type things or studio events such as that?
Kevin Hui:no, we had students from different universities doing competition together and oh cool in their off time, and that was great learning experience for them. Because instead of universities spelling out this is what you need to do nowadays, they have to spell everything out every step, which I think is troublesome. It's a competition. It's like here's a competition, here's the brief, this is the submission requirements. Here's some of the panels and sizes we need. Go. So that forces them to strategize, to think about what, who's got what skills and you know, pulled together that, and also just thinking, well, what, what time frame? At what point do you need to have what? And uh, and get it, you know, and communicating the idea that's what's important.
Ben Sutherland:These students are getting a lot for 19 a week. It sounds awesome. It's so good. Can I come?
Kevin Hui:well, that's yeah, it's the mindset yeah, it's so good because I think, as a profession, we need to. We need to be more efficient with time, because time is what we complain about, time is what, what we charge, and yeah, we just need to have more efficient graduates. Who can you know?
Ben Sutherland:work effectively. Sometimes you just need time to think though to make things more productive. I think, as you were saying before, it's just the planning. Getting the planning right can really streamline a project. I'm learning that a lot recently, that's for sure.
Kevin Hui:We're learning and still constantly reviewing what needs to be done. But yeah, it's interesting. A lot of students think, oh, they're going to come to the studio, they have to do extra stuff. They think it's an extra thing on top and they don't have time for it. And the whole idea is that it's the other way around, that if you're time poor, you need to be here and strategize and think about what you need to do. The point is, we're not trying to make your life difficult. The whole point is to make your life better.
Ben Sutherland:Absolutely.
Sam Brown:So, kevin, what brought you to creating, you know, creating this studio thing. I mean we've sort of talked about how it benefits the students, but I mean it's quite an interesting, you know, from a professional perspective it's kind of interesting. It seems and correct me if I'm wrong but you've sort of really committed yourself to this sort of betterment of the future generation of architects, whether it be through the studio environment or whether it be through informing people through the YouTube videos and things. What's brought you or what's kind of driven you in this direction?
Kevin Hui:Well, I've always taught. I've taught for a long time, over 20 years, at various universities and I teach in critical thinking and uh, and all the stuff, all kind of, some of the stuff I'm trying to teach here Uh, and even just, you know, critiquing on certain, uh, character traits and problems that students have in terms of how they're dealing with a problem or whatever. And of course now you can't say these things at universities and of course now you can't say these things at universities, and I always said that the first thing in all my teaching is always social engineering. I try to break down that barrier very, very early on. Again, things I can't do at university anymore. I used to bring out here's the subject handout and here's a slab of beer, and then, you know what, just to loosen up the conversation, we used to get beer runs in the middle of the session. Hang on, here's the subject handout and here's a slab of beer, and then you know what, nice, just to loosen up the conversation. And we used to like get beer runs in the middle of the session and go right, we need more, and it's just, let's go, and it's just this great conversation and everyone just gets involved in learning how to critique each other and having this great sort of camaraderie that helping each other was an important thing in the education, the camaraderie that helping each other was an important thing in the education.
Kevin Hui:And since I left university and also leaving practice, I just need to find something to do and I thought, okay, well, I love traveling, I love architecture and I love teaching. So the tours were the starting point. And then YouTube, and then this space came up because we were already talking about mindsets and teaching students about how to think about dealing with the university, because you can't change university. University is obscene. Colleagues trying to do it, it just doesn't happen. So I thought we can change students' mindsets. That would help them but also help people teaching it as well. So that became that. And then this space came up and it was like, well, let's put things to practice like what we've been talking about. Let's run the space and see what happens. I used to back before COVID, I was using WeWork, the co-working spaces to work at, because I just need people around me as well, and that kind of gave me part of the idea of how this could work. It's a sort of one-day sort of co-working space, slash studio.
Sam Brown:It's amazing the influence that you've been in education for 20 years and it's almost like you through archie, marathon and the various ventures, you're able to touch or influence so many more people in such a shorter amount of time. It's like I don't know, it's just it's quite incredible, like the influence that this format has, um, and I think that's internationally as well. I think that's quite powerful.
Kevin Hui:It is amazing to get emails from students and graduates from Africa and India and saying, yeah, this is great, they really appreciate the help that they had. Yes, so instead of teaching 16 students at one time, now you know we've got access to thousands of people.
Sam Brown:Hundreds of thousands. Yeah, it's a powerful thing.
Kevin Hui:Well, yeah, millions millions.
Sam Brown:It's a plan right.
Gerard Dombroski:It's a very sparsely populated earth. Yeah, I think it's awesome Like you've got like your little course criteria, little studies. I guess you could liken it to like the design fundamentals videos, like your mindsets videos. I think those are pretty awesome assets for students everywhere to sort of plug into.
Kevin Hui:Yeah, it's just the old lectures that I had that I used to give every now and then. And, yeah, it's great to put it into a format that students are comfortable with these days. I've seen students seen a pack of lectures watching students watching a lecture, and then there'll be like laptops are up and then there'll be a YouTube video playing at the same time the lecture is going. Then I realized, oh, maybe YouTube is and social media is probably the way to go. Just how can you communicate quicker? Because lectures are long and drawn out, it's a performance and it really depends on the person performing. And sometimes they're just the same old lecture you've been giving for years and years and the same, with that emotion.
Kevin Hui:And, yeah, I think this puts, you know, the dissemination of information and knowledge using a much more innocent medium. And it could be very what's the word I'm looking for condensed. But at the same time, you know people if they're interested, they will rewatch it, but then you know they're doing that with lectures. Anyway, they're recording lectures but we know that students don't really watch them because you can see who's actually watched it and there are students I know that that apparently said yeah, they can't wait till the lecture to be finished, because it's recorded so they can watch it again at double speed.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah fascinating love the speed up short attention spans yeah yeah, that short attention span must be.
Ben Sutherland:I mean, it's getting shorter and shorter, so it's good. We need better ways to deal with it, somehow, if we're going to continue to educate. Not sure if these hour-long podcasts help in that realm.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, we've got two times speed.
Kevin Hui:Well, it's conversational, it's unscripted, so that works.
Ben Sutherland:And audio is easy because you can just turn it on in the background, tune in and out as you see fit and take snippets of the most interesting parts, I guess.
Gerard Dombroski:So I guess this is like a revolt against university. Do we dare delve into that discussion?
Kevin Hui:Well, yeah, I guess university are we, do we dare delve into that discussion of? Well, yeah, I guess you know that there are a lot of people doing other things. Now that's, that's great and the supporting I I would say supporting university just what they're not doing, that they can't do, their amount of red tape and things. So you know it's, it's a result. We kind of see it as a certain broken aspect to the system. But you know there are people out there doing other things.
Gerard Dombroski:The university.
Kevin Hui:I think it's a support.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, the university we went to in the last few years has taken away or made critique optional. Like you, don't have to do the critique anymore.
Kevin Hui:Oh.
Gerard Dombroski:Which I fear for those students trying to like present a design to a prospective client, like if you've never been told no, or never been told to explain your idea, it's. It's kind of scary.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, it's a big part, isn't it?
Sam Brown:huge. I feel like tears and tears post a critique is the right passage as well.
Gerard Dombroski:And doing it all nighter and then just standing up and doing the critique We've all been there Not being able to find your words because your brain's switched off.
Sam Brown:Yeah present your idea to a client and then you cry as a result. Gerard, do you know what that justification for making critique optional is? Is it so people don't get absolutely reamed out?
Gerard Dombroski:I think it's just hurt feelings if we boil it down People don't want to have their feelings hurt.
Ben Sutherland:It hurts my feelings that they've cut the critiques.
Sam Brown:I think it's optional, so, like my understanding and you're right about it's being, you know, dangerous for professional practice, though like we, you know, as architects, in particularly at the moment because we are operating in such a difficult uh, construction climate, we're having our feelings hurt multiple times daily. At the moment, it feels like you're becoming very thick-skinned.
Kevin Hui:That's why they need to watch my episode on how to survive. Critique Exactly.
Ben Sutherland:There you go.
Kevin Hui:Perfect, this is not a personal attack. Yeah, it should never be a personal attack.
Gerard Dombroski:No, yeah, you learn a lot more than the person critiquing you, and it's like the person's offering you critique, it's like a you know, it's a nice gesture, even if it feels confrontational, because, yeah, you've associated your feelings to your design.
Ben Sutherland:Your ego gets bruised. It is like that, though I kind of remember every single person that critiqued me at university, so it is a kind of feels like a big thing at the time, that's for sure what about when I critique your projects, man? I just rip, I throw them away and start again after that no, I think it's, I don't know.
Gerard Dombroski:I see it as a sign of generosity, like somebody's investing in you and your design skills. I think it's a very generous thing to do to somebody. Yeah, providing you.
Kevin Hui:And back in the day you would have that absolute, terrible sort of critique. You know with your project, and then you know with the tutor or guests, and then afterwards you can all get it up together and have a drink, have a chat, and then you realise it's all okay.
Ben Sutherland:I would actually love to you know, just speaking of you critiquing me, gerard, I would love more critiques. If anything in my life, I think I could. I think just like the level of speed of learning that you know, you, the progression, um, and the design outcome. Just going through that critique, getting various people's opinion, it either confirms what you already knew or it just shows another perspective on other ways or other considerations. So I'm extremely pro-critiquing.
Kevin Hui:And it also forces you to explain it.
Gerard Dombroski:Yes, it draws it out of your mind, like when you read your essay out loud to yourself Puts reality to it.
Sam Brown:It's something that you definitely lose, I found, particularly when starting my own practice. It's something you lose as a small practice is that ability to critique or be critiqued, and often when I started out, I went to other architecture firms and friends and peers and asked them to basically give me feedback and critique my work and I found that really helpful.
Sam Brown:Probably do less so these days, maybe just because I've got less work on, but you know, I think that's one benefit of being in a large firm is that you know you have that body of people around and, like you've been saying, Kevin, with the studio kind of format and having Austin Maynard next door, you know you've kind of got that larger body of people around to be able to critique as well, which is quite critical.
Ben Sutherland:Do some of the other professional designers do some pinups every now and then for the students? I can imagine they'll benefit significantly from it as well. It'd be awesome.
Kevin Hui:Not so much, but, yeah, mainly from us and ArtTix and ArtTix and ArtTix when they're working they can overhear the presentations to clients or to consultants. Yeah, all the in-house discussions. That happens because they just project that on the board, the big board.
Gerard Dombroski:They control over it and everyone can see and poke at it that's awesome, that the studio style things something that I find missing from my my practice specifically, but like I'm a sole practitioner for the most part. I used to co-work, uh, with a friend, like we went halves on the rent and what have you, and that was an awesome time. But he's buggered off overseas to more exciting events and sometimes me and Ben hang out. But I'm quite a social person so it's weird that I every day drive out to the hut and sit in a shed by myself. Definitely could implement some more studio culture in my own life.
Ben Sutherland:Yeah, I definitely could too.
Sam Brown:We should tee up a studio session. Yeah, get some students in there Sounds good, just like all of us smaller people.
Ben Sutherland:people, we should just get together some beers, like Kevin said, generously pick each other apart, start a podcast, yeah we'll start start a podcast where we just go around talking to design professionals getting rid of the past maybe we start doing pinups on our podcast and getting these professionals to give us some feedback.
Sam Brown:So, kevin, I mean you've been, you've been, you've been around the world. You've seen a lot of buildings, I think, being touched on it. Do you have any? Do you have any standouts?
Kevin Hui:That's too many really. I think, yeah, it really depends on the situation as well.
Sam Brown:Oh my god that is a lot of photos.
Ben Sutherland:No way that's insane.
Gerard Dombroski:What storage are we talking with on that? That's a 100% on Apple Cloud same what's. What storage are we talking to with all that? That's?
Sam Brown:that's at least that's quite a lot yeah it's impressive and any, any plans for a new zealand tour um, I've been asked that.
Kevin Hui:Well, the problem is that I think all the good stuff are tend to be houses and it's hard to get to places yeah, I think your condensed program probably doesn't work so well here no, it's not about you're walking around and it becomes like being bussed around and you know, I've heard that this generosity in new zealand people just go yeah, let's check out my house.
Kevin Hui:They're pretty generous. But again, I don't think the model it's about. You know, part of part of it is the in between. It's getting to a place when you sort of only do is really kind of being driven on bus somewhere else.
Sam Brown:You kind of don't have that same experience as you know public transport and seeing how people live and I guess it's as much as well as much guess it's as much as as much as experiencing the context as it is in the culture as well and the food and beer yes it's important.
Gerard Dombroski:Is there anything else you wanted to sort of highlight, kevin, before we wrap?
Kevin Hui:things up. Yeah, watch our, watch our YouTube.
Gerard Dombroski:Instagram, it's blowing up on our yeah, your Instagram's huge. It's wild. I thought you were a.
Kevin Hui:Kardashian or something it's but Instagram is actually the the biggest channel and it's actually a lot easier to manage as well. Because of the short form, I can churn it out a lot quicker. And it's a better format because I think the idea of serving it up to anyone who's not interested in architecture, but somehow the algorithm put in front of them they go. I didn't know. I liked this. This is great. That's much better than the YouTube model, which is like a thumbnail. There's a title you could click bait it. It's like do I want to click and watch this?
Ben Sutherland:big smiling mugshot where can our listeners find you on on Insta and YouTube.
Kevin Hui:Hockey Marathon, just google Hockey Marathon. It'll be on Insta TikTok if you have to but be nice, be nice, be nice yeah.
Sam Brown:Be the change. Be nice with your critics.
Ben Sutherland:Awesome. Thank you so much for jumping on.
Kevin Hui:Thanks for having me.
Gerard Dombroski:Yeah, very appreciative and love what you're doing. I think we'll see some copycats in the time.
Ben Sutherland:Hopefully the podcast can come on tour with you one day. That'd be quite the privilege, that'd be awesome.
Kevin Hui:Sounds good. Do a live version.
Ben Sutherland:Absolutely, that'd be so cool.
