Janai Auman Speaks Out About Spiritual Abuse and the Disparity Between the Church's Public Teachings and Private Actions

When the chains of a toxic faith fall away, what truths emerge from the shadows? This is the question at the heart of our latest episode, featuring the courageous and insightful Janai Oman. Her odyssey from a church staff member to a staunch advocate for a faith that heals and liberates is a testament to the strength of the human spirit. Together, we navigate the treacherous waters of spiritual abuse and gender discrimination she faced within the church, shining a light on the often unseen disparity between public teaching and private practice. Janai's resolve to speak truth to power, despite personal cost, offers a powerful narrative about the intricate dynamics of church leadership and the profound emotional journey of leaving one's faith community.

The path to loving oneself can be as intricate and fraught as untangling a knotted necklace, a metaphor we explore in depth through personal stories of healing and self-discovery. Janai and I dissect the pervasive issue of 'othering'—be it within the Filipino-American community or a church setting—and its profound impact on one's sense of belonging and identity. As we peel back the layers of her story, Janai's experience forcefully reminds us of the high price of authenticity, and yet, her transformation into a writer provides a beacon for those seeking liberation from the shackles of oppressive environments.

Concluding our deep and heartfelt discussions, we share how retreat and spiritual renewal are not signs of weakness but acts of profound self-care. Janai's journey is not just about the struggle; it's about the reclamation of joy, love, and personal faith, outside the rigid expectations of religious conformity. Her story, interwoven with wisdom and a call for compassionate belief systems, serves as a guide for anyone grappling with their place within a potentially toxic church environment. Join us as we celebrate the resilience and transformative power of embracing one's truth and the quiet strength found in moments of retreat.

You can follow Janai's journey on Instagram @janaiauman or at Janaiauman.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:15

Aloha, god Pod. Today we are going to be speaking with Janai Oman. Janai Oman is a Filipina-American writer and artist. She draws from her years in church leadership, as well as her trauma-informed training to write on healing, hope and the way forward. She is passionate about providing language so readers can find a faith that frees. She received her bachelor's degree in behavioral health science and is currently pursuing a master's in spiritual formation at Northeastern Seminary. Janai lives in Houston, texas, with her husband Tyler, and their sons, quinn and Graham. Hello, janai, welcome to the podcast. So great to have you here.

Speaker 2: 1:52

Yeah, thanks for having me. This is great.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Awesome. So we always start out with your leaving the church story. So I ask when did things start to crack? For you what happened there?

Speaker 2: 2:04

Yeah. So if, for those who aren't familiar with the story, I worked on staff with a church for and I was a member of this church for 11 years and it was the last three years where I worked on staff and you know the phrase like seeing how the sausage gets made, that was like more or less like I went in with kind of rose-colored glasses and then once you get a peek behind the curtain you can't unsee what you've seen or unhear what you've heard, and then it starts to kind of cognitively break down your understanding of you know we're preaching grace and peace and truth, but behind the scenes we're fighting it. It was not so gracious and not so peaceful, um, and essentially I I experienced spiritual abuse while on staff at the church. Um, it was a complementarian church, so, for those who are unfamiliar, only men were able to be in leadership, and women, even though many of us had pastoral roles where we were giving and extending care to members of the congregation. We were not considered pastors and as such, our pay was not even half that of the other pastors, though our load was maybe not the same but similar in many ways.

Speaker 2: 3:46

And so essentially I left the church because I had seen too much and I, at some point, I stopped being quiet, I started fighting back and I started saying hey, fighting back, and I started saying hey, speaking to the disparity of what I had seen and said this is not, this is not the way of Jesus, this is not the.

Speaker 2: 4:07

We are not who we say we are, and I don't want to be a part, I don't want to be complicit in this, like I do not want to be a part of the harm that's being inflicted here, and so I was terminated from my position although they never say terminated, they use like churchy words, like we're transitioning you out or giving you an informal off ramp. But it was like I was like hashtag church fired and I think they I mean they did they still expected me and my family to remain members of the church, I guess because they thought they were so polite in um pushing me out, and I said, no, um, this has broken our trust in so many ways, and so we we left and it was gutting, and it was gutting at the time and now I think I'm out and I'm free. So, yeah, that is a high-level view of everything.

Speaker 1: 5:06

Yeah, it's interesting. I've had a couple of other guests on that have said the same thing about holding these pastoral roles as women but not being given the title or the compensation or anything. Was this like a mega church? I'm always curious because I'm from the South and our church was so little and poor. Nobody got paid. I'm curious about that.

Speaker 2: 5:28

So okay, so I'm from Houston. Houston is, I mean, like many, many churches in the South and in the Bible Belt. It's a city of a million churches. You know there's so many churches. Mega church here can mean like thousands on thousands, on thousands.

Speaker 2: 5:48

I'm thinking of churches like Houston's First or, and none of these churches I'm mentioning are my church. I just kind of want to preface that. But we also have Lakewood, which has like you need, like are my church? I just kind of want to preface that. But we also have Lakewood, which has like you need, like you need to follow. It's almost like going to a concert, like it's so big it's in a former arena.

Speaker 2: 6:05

So my former church was actually they would share our like megachurches, weren't. It's hard to be known in a megachurch, it's hard to know the voice of your sheep, and so we I say we, like I'm still a part of the church, but the language was that we were intentionally small and instead we were a church-planting church, meaning the church was intended to multiply when it reached, when it got too big, and so it was supposed to be a lower church model. I would say, maybe at the height, whenever I was still a member there, we had 300 Samad members, so certainly not small. It's certainly big enough that, um you, a person, a member, might not know all the names of the other members, um, but not so big that, um you know you, you, well, your absence would be noticed over time.

Speaker 1: 7:12

So yeah, Okay, cool, thanks for that. That was okay, which was always, you know, when we were doing well, a little over 100 people and um, yeah, so I'm always, I'm always curious about that. It does seem like there's a whole nother culture in the like megachurch, so it sounds like what you, you guys, were doing were basically like finding people in in your smallness and then feeding them into the like the bigger churches, basically, yeah, we will.

Speaker 2: 7:39

well, we were, we weren't a part, or I still say we. That's so funny. It was not a part of a mega denomination. Actually, it was a part of a mega denomination but its most distinguishable affiliation was a church planting network, and so I was actually one of the founding church members. So like if you go in, and I mean if someone does the work of like going to the state of Texas is like open access documents. I am one of the signing directors. You have three signing directors to kind of form a nonprofit, and then six becomes you're a church planting church, you grow um, you make more disciples, and then they make more disciples and then at some point the growth kind of becomes like you're no longer a church plant, like you're an established church, and so we I experienced both the very small um model of church and then I also experienced the like we have a mega building campaign and it seats 400 people in the church and yada, yada, yada. So yeah, I've experienced the whole breadth of church membership and church sizes.

Speaker 1: 8:50

Yeah, I find it interesting how it really is a business. It's really just such a business.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Just such a business.

Speaker 1: 8:57

The way you describe it is where I'm thinking franchises, yeah, sister locations and all that. It's just kind of mind blowing.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Yeah, and a lot of the church planting language was kind of borrowed from corporations, and it doesn't surprise me, it shouldn't be corporate. And then, I think, in their in their head, in their heads, they tell themselves this is different. But is it really? Like the fruit obviously shows otherwise, it becomes a consumable and people feel consumed. And that's how spiritual abuse happens. People feel conquered and like swallowed whole because the machine doesn't really care that you're a person, you're, you're, not a part of the machine. You get spit out, you know.

Speaker 1: 9:41

Yeah, yeah, totally, and I found that true, I think, with the commodification of spirituality in general. I left the church, you know, more than 20 years ago, so I spent the next couple of decades like really diving into the New Age world and other spiritual like like teachings and practicing and that kind of stuff and just yeah, it seems like when you start turning spirituality into something that makes money, it changes the energy of it and and it does become something that's more consuming than expanding I guess, yeah, yeah, go ahead I was to say, it's hard to escape that like consumerism, when, particularly in the United States, like that's the origin story, you know, like we are, we're capitalistic and you know, self-made man, manifest destiny, um, and that's where the stuff gets in, it infects the church and it influences the church, and so, yeah, I am not at all surprised by the.

Speaker 2: 10:44

You know, belonging becomes a commodity in the church and you're tithed by belonging when that is not at all, not at all, what is articulated in scripture. And so it's sad, it's really sad.

Speaker 1: 11:00

Yeah, yeah, especially for those who are born. Were you born into the church?

Speaker 2: 11:05

No, oh, wow, no, and I think that might be a reason why my faith has remained. It's certainly so different. I do not land theologically in the same areas that I previously did, but remaining in the church was different for me because I know toxicity, like I came from a traumatic childhood and so the church was a place, a people that I went to to find belonging, and so there are kernels of goodness in there. And I would say like right after I left, I thought it would be easier to walk away, and I don't blame people at all for walking away. I think some people I have friends who have totally deconverted because that's the only way they could keep their sanity, because toxic theology gets so tangled up into who they think God is that you almost have to walk away because to untangle it.

Speaker 2: 11:59

Have you ever seen Christmas Vacation where Russ has like that bundle of like Christmas lights? That's what I think about is like it would be easier to just like throw this away than to try to sit down and untangle every single one of these Christmas lights so that I have like a whole strand. Yeah, but yeah, I think I stayed within the church because I know that there was a kernel of goodness in there and I didn't have a childhood worth of baggage to detangle. My faith has always become like a transforming and learning more and transforming again, and so I've been a part of a variety of denominations and I think I can name the harm that I experienced in each different church in different ways that I didn't have language to before. Now I am not a part of a church. Well, I am a part of the global church. I am a part of, like, the greater communion of saints past, present and future. I am not a part of the institution today.

Speaker 1: 12:57

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Do you feel, like being a founding member, that it made it harder, like it was kind of like your baby or something, that it was harder to see those truths, or was it just like?

Speaker 2: 13:09

Oh yeah, I mean, I was there for 11 years and I thought this is the place where my kids will be baptized, and they were, in many ways, because my childhood family. I've cut off contact with many of them, which I know. That's the story for many people who have grown up in the church. They cut off contact. I cut off contact with my family for not church-related reasons and my church in many ways became my family. Many of them were there the night my eldest was born and they saw him like day one, you know holding them. You know how you get those updates on your phone from like Facebook or TimeHop about like this day eight years ago or whatever Like that. The people in those photos were my family and so in many ways, it was devastating because this, this place and this community that I invested so much of my time and energy into, um ultimately ostracized me and they said we don't. They communicated in so many words we don't need you and we don't want you, and that hurt.

Speaker 1: 14:22

Wow, it sounds, you know, from an outside perspective. It reminds me of being in a like narcissistic, abusive relationship you know, there's nuggets of good in there, you know, and that's why we stay.

Speaker 1: 14:33

I remember I was in an abusive relationship many, many years ago and and I started seeing a therapist and I was like, yeah, but there's this good stuff. And she said, of course there is, otherwise you wouldn't be there. And that was like such a light bulb moment of me for me of like I can't just concentrate on the good stuff, I have to look at the whole picture. And the whole picture is very harmful. That's kind of what it sounds like when you're talking, you know, and then we don't need you anymore. When you no longer comply and you no longer can assimilate into that dysfunction. You're unusable, You're literally unused. They can't use you. So they didn't they.

Speaker 2: 15:11

I remember like at one point and I mean for those who read my book other I like intentionally leave some stuff out, like I don't talk about being love bombed while I was a leader and I was so lauded as, like you're such a good leader and the compliments. I have a hard time receiving compliments, not just now, I think I had a hard time receiving compliments, even even whenever I was at the church. But like receiving compliments because I don't know if, like you're genuinely complimenting me or if you're complimenting me because you're wanting something out of me. And I did identify at one point I realized this man is complimenting me only to get stuff out of me. Whereas I don't think that was true of all the people who were on staff, it was definitely true of the one, the main pastor, and I remember him saying you know, I think I was burning out as a leader and just explaining throughout several meetings how tired I was, not only not in my staff position but as, like a small group leader where we kind of established pastoral care. I remember telling them I am burning out. It had been six years that I had opened my after week, preparing a meal and inviting all these people in, week after week, like anywhere between like eight to 20, 25 people. And I remember this pastor coming up to tell me I just want to tell you, you're such a great leader and we need you to keep doing it a little while longer. And I thought, man, I don't think you're hearing me, like I'm so burned out, but you're asking me to hold on.

Speaker 2: 16:56

At point things had started fracturing and I was no longer trusting the, the compliments and the love bombing and, yeah, you're right, like there are kernels of goodness, but whenever the the like like being able to decipher is this really good, or is this like grooming, or is this love bombing? Or it like becomes so confusing. And then you, you tend to not have the space to even ask questions or even um, like challenge or give feedback, like, or even not even like critical feedback, but just like a criticism. It's just like a hey, this might help. Like being at all critical of someone's leadership who is governing your, your job and, essentially, your membership in the church. Like that was not well received. So I was a scapegoat, yeah, yeah sounds like it.

Speaker 1: 17:50

Wow, um, I going back to that untangling. It's interesting that you use that kind of metaphor because that's how I always. I always call it untangling indo. It's interesting that you use that kind of metaphor because that's how I always. I always call it untangling indoctrination, and I always picture like a necklace that's like in a million knots and and being born and raised in the church, I tried that, um, putting it aside and just pretended it didn't exist.

Speaker 1: 18:12

And then I realized like I was knotted in with that, like myself, my identity, all of that was knotted in together. So you know, here I am, more than 20 years later, like untangling the knots because there really wasn't a way around it, like I avoided it, I bypassed it, but it's still very much ruling my life, because I feel like that's what if it feels overwhelming for people who are listening, like it will get easier, even though every time you untangle a knot there's another one waiting. Eventually, the knots are less and less and you get your necklace back. Yeah, you get your Christmas lights back. That you know it's. It's not impossible, but it's not easy either. Yeah, it's not impossible, but it's not easy either.

Speaker 2: 18:57

Yeah, and sometimes when you untangle like specifically when you untangle a necklace the number of necklaces I've had to untangle sometimes you make the knot worse. You know what I mean? Yeah, you make other knots. Yes, yeah, totally yeah. And so sometimes you actually have to do it, not for, like, you have to do it for a while and you become more acquainted with OK, I've seen this sort like this is wrapped around this Once you become more familiar with, but it's you're already. Whenever you get to that point, sometimes you're already so tired from the dehumanization or how often you've been dismissed or devalued that you're so tired you can't even think about the knots anymore. Devalued that you're so tired you can't even think about the knots anymore. But so whenever I, when I talk about it with like different creative or spiritual direction um clients, I usually tell them first, like take time for your own internal space, because if you don't have space within yourself to figure out who you are, it's going to make it harder to untangle the knots and you'll just get more frustrated. And because it takes time to like sit at the knot and kind of tease at it and you're like okay, I've done this long enough that I can see progress being made. But yeah, that's one thing that was really important to me was in other.

Speaker 2: 20:11

I write a book about belonging or I read a chapter about belonging and I think most people approach it as like oh, she's going to talk about, like we need community and I like that's part of it. But I say, in order to belong to people, you really do have to learn to belong to yourself. And like you cannot learn to love Actually, no, that I will caveat. Like, love your neighbor as yourself. We always do love our neighbor as ourselves. But seeing what I'm seeing in the church, you learn that our Christian neighbors often love people in harsh and harm, like it's not really love, because they don't know how to love themselves. They are treating you the exact same way, like their inner critic, that inner voice that like that's how they love themselves. And so I tell people you can reject that sort of love. And and, if anything, like you can be saddened and lament over that. Because when I see people thinking about like oh well to love them, I have to police all the ways that they behave. Like, oh well to love them, I have to police all the ways that they behave, and I think, no, no, you've been discipled to do that because you've never been given the space to like, love yourself and be self-compassionate. You can't extend compassion to other people if you don't know what compassion to yourself looks like. And so I am a champion of like, learning to love yourself. And I think the reformed folks would say like that's super selfish. And I would say no, it's not. Like you know what I mean, like it's just like it's incongruent to try to love people when you don't know what. And that's actually like.

Speaker 2: 21:54

I studied church history. There are so many people in different points of history that say there's Bernard of Clairvaux who says like there's four degrees of love and the ultimate love is learning to love yourself for the sake of God. Because learning to love yourself means that you accept yourself the way that God sees and accepts you and welcomes you in. And I thought that God sees and accepts you and welcomes you in. And I thought, and that's like from the year, like 1100, you know what I mean Like we've gone so far from that message. So, yeah, I'm a champion for learning to love yourself and finding yourself.

Speaker 1: 22:31

Well, and it's inherent like this self-hatred, because we're taught that we're born into sin, we're born sinful, like basically, the point of our life is to prove that we're worthy of love. So of course we don't love ourselves, of course we don't have compassion for ourselves. When our life is just a matter of proving like that, we deserve mercy.

Speaker 2: 22:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:53

You know grace to be given anything good. Yeah, it lines up, it's designed that way. Be given anything good it yeah, it lines up, it's designed that way. Yeah, we, we varied from that, you know, all these years, intentionally.

Speaker 2: 23:05

I yeah the doctrine of yeah, the doctrine of, like original sin has, like, like it wasn't original, like, if you go back to the origin story, that wasn't original. We were originally good and there's still pieces of that within us. That's original and that's what I argue for.

Speaker 1: 23:22

Thank, you for saying that. I haven't heard it in that way, but that, totally like that, that makes sense, like that's just such an easy way to be, like, actually, if you think about, if you're going to believe that story, let's start at how it really began. I love that. So, talking about your book, othered yes, for those who are listening who don't know what othering is, would you explain that?

Speaker 2: 23:44

Yes, yes, at first I like asking the podcast host what comes to mind, because I think that many people think, oh, this is a new term, but there's something inside each of us that, like, can grasp on and define it. So, like, when you think of it, what do you like, what do you hear, what comes to mind?

Speaker 1: 24:03

Diversity like anything other than what I'm personally experiencing within myself?

Speaker 2: 24:09

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:11

Yeah. So I mean that's really, that is like the most brilliant and simple like definition of othering. I would say othering it is a sense of exclusion, but it's not only exclusion, it's exclusion that comes with a value statement that says this other person is not as valuable as I am. So when people talk about us versus them dynamics, you're talking about othering. When people talk about in grouping or out grouping, I don't know, Are you familiar with those terms in grouping, and it's becoming more and more familiar.

Speaker 2: 24:48

But in grouping and out grouping, it is a part of social identity theory. It's a psychological, social psychological theory developed actually by a Jewish man right after World War Two, and he began to study like how, in what ways can a human being have so much bias against another person that the like, essentially genocide, could happen in World War Two? Like, how can that happen? And so he developed a theory on how in-group bias, which is essentially thinking my people are better than your people, how this in-group bias leads to dehumanization and dismissal, devaluing inequality. I mean it becomes systemic. It starts with an identity issue and it becomes systemic when you start integrating a whole group and so really, othering is just assuming that you know I'm excluding this person and it's. I am more valuable than they are, and if anything it says, I have to derive my value as a human being by making that other person small. So that is othering someone.

Speaker 2: 25:59

I remember it's even prevalent in advocacy groups. I remember being in a call with fellow survivors and one survivor was talking to the wife of a pastor. The pastor may or may not have allegedly hurt other people, but this wife was so confused and trying to figure out like how can I hold on to my faith again? And someone was just so angry that she was like you are just other, you can't, you can't belong here, and I thought that's so painful because you just became the very thing that hurt you. And so I usually attribute othering to identity issues and it results in devaluing another human being.

Speaker 1: 26:49

That makes sense. Yeah, and so you are Filipino American, correct?

Speaker 2: 26:53

Yes, yes, filipino American, but like also Texan. So I've been a lifelong, so it's like I, it's the I am, I write and other that I am of multitudes and I really am. So I'll eat like Filipino dishes, but I am also happy with like chicken and dumplings and sweet tea and like traditional Southern things. You know what I mean. So not be happy with chicken and dumplings.

Speaker 1: 27:18

And sweet.

Speaker 2: 27:18

Oh my gosh, that's like my number one food like that. And chicken adobo, which is yeah, yeah, I love chicken and I will, I, I love chicken and dumplings. So, yeah, you made me hungry and homesick.

Speaker 1: 27:33

I just learned how to make chicken adobo a couple weeks ago. I was so excited. I live in Maui, so we have more of a Filipino population than any other nationality here on this island and how just the community, that strong community. I think it really shows and I know this is prevalent in other cultures as well, but it just really shows this myth of community exists because you're in the church and that's where community comes from. I feel like, if anything, the Filipino community shows that that is just absolutely not true. They are so there for each other. It's such a strong community. It's really admirable. Like, if anything, the Filipino community shows that that is just absolutely not true.

Speaker 1: 28:13

Yeah, they are so there for each other. It's such a strong community um.

Speaker 2: 28:17

It's really admirable yeah, like we we are. So in in the United States we're usually very like, infected with, like individualism. Pick yourself up by your bootstraps. And in Filipino culture I mean, there's certainly some of that. I'm not going to say there's none of that, but it's much more collectivistic meaning. We know that you need a village to make life. Like they are. I will say I mean I feel like a very individualized Westerner in comparison to other Filipino people. So I would say, like Filipino people love being up in your business and sometimes it's not like in a not necessarily in a toxic way, but they're like have you eaten?

Speaker 2: 28:57

You need to eat this? Like you. And then like respect for elders. I, I think it's. They are very welcoming. They will welcome you in as soon as you walk in the door. Like it's hard, I'm an introvert. I'm an introvert that can be an extrovert, but like they will, like they don't care if you're an introvert. They're like you're going to eat, tell me what you think of this food here. You try this, try this, try this. If you don't eat enough, they're like what did you hate the food and you know what I mean. They just want's very different and I'm so glad you learned how to make chicken adobo. That's like salty chicken. Goodness, I love it. I love it.

Speaker 1: 29:38

It's so easy. I've loved it for like forever and I had no idea how easy it was going to be to make it. I'm just like blown away, like now. If I can learn pancit, I'm in heaven.

Speaker 2: 29:46

My gosh. That, like Ponset, is like. That is a. Uh, that's my number one noodle dish, but it's so because it's Filipino. It's not your traditional ramen or pho, whatever. People don't know about it. I almost don't want people to learn about Ponset, though you know what I mean. Yeah, I'm like. I'm like I don't, I kind of don't want you to know it because it's so good and I but I'm trying not to gatekeep a good thing, so anyway, that's my.

Speaker 1: 30:15

Your reaction to that was my reaction to the chicken and dumplings. It was like my bones felt that, felt that. Um, but back to the serious stuff. Um, how do you feel that you were othered in the church? How did you feel that that played in your community?

Speaker 2: 30:33

It sucked, it wasn't fun, I it was. So whenever I tell people I mean they were my pastors, obviously, but what many people don't know, or I don't, I don't know what image conjures up in a person's brain when I, when I say the word pastor. But in my church some, like some of these guys, were just a year older than me. So we're not talking about like a generation, like someone who could be my dad rejecting me. We're talking about, like my brothers, who, you know like, defended me, like. I remember just so many different little instances where I experienced brotherly love, um, and, as I do have a brother, um and uh, but I've always been the older sister and so I felt like, oh, these are my older, this is what it would have been like if I had an older brother and then being othered I, I would have likened it to Joseph's, like this Bible story of Joseph's brothers throwing him in a pit and like selling him and you know, and I felt like that's what they did. That's exactly what they did, you know like, and I never got a reason for like why I was being, except very recently, just a few months ago, I was told that they got rid of me because I wouldn't. They needed to fire the main pastor slowly and I wouldn't let them go slow enough. And I thought, slow enough, I was on staff for three years and the issue like what was slow enough? And you were letting a man preach who had obviously disqualified himself long ago. And I thought, I realized that their perception of the situation was more preeminent, more superior than mine, and I really don't know why. I think there's a. Maybe it's because I was a woman, maybe it was because I wasn't a leader, I wasn't equally wizened, but I, I feel like, effectually, they, they, they would say that I had value as a woman, but it wasn't equal. It certainly wasn't equal.

Speaker 2: 32:49

And I learned that the very hard way, because up to this point I thought, oh, I really am an equal, like they'll hear me, they'll hear me. And so I kept speaking up and until I became a problem because I wouldn't stop speaking up and so it was painful. I um, I'm going to be very frank. I am not a drinker. Um, I, I, I'm an Asian and some Asians have a very high like intolerance to alcohol. But I had to numb out. I was so, uh, it was probably the most depressed.

Speaker 2: 33:21

I would wake up in the morning and just resent my life because I felt like everything that our family had worked to do to belong to a people was just demolished. It felt like a nuclear bomb, like an emotional nuclear bomb had been dropped on our family and we didn't. We just felt afloat. We didn't know where to go. We moved into a neighborhood in Houston to be a part of that church and it was painful knowing anytime we go to the grocery store, the people who think I have less value might be there and I don't know how to respond. Or anytime we go to a restaurant or a coffee shop or um, so it.

Speaker 2: 34:01

It was absolutely gutting. Um, there, I tell I say this in the book and I tell this to other people but a piece of me died. A piece of me in a real way died. I am no longer that woman anymore and while you know, years ago I would have been really upset that a piece of me died, I like where I am now and I've gotten to bloom in ways that I would have never bloomed had I stayed there. I don't think I ever would have left that church unless they pushed me out. I don't sanction or think it was right for them to push me out in the ways that they did, but I don't think I would have ever left.

Speaker 1: 34:41

Yeah, glennon Doyle says that, like, liberation is never one-sided. While they felt they were liberating themselves, they were also liberating you, and that's, yeah, I feel like always an important thing to remember when we're trying to move on from something. It's just like whatever is liberating to you is also liberating to the other party, whether they realize it or not. Yeah, yeah, rejection is like redirection, right. So, yeah, as much as it's not justified and not OK. Also like thank you, yeah, for showing me the truth.

Speaker 2: 35:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:17

Yeah, are you still in that neighborhood? Have you moved into a different?

Speaker 2: 35:22

No, we, we definitely, so we moved. I mean, this is how high control it was whenever we planted the church. It was a very specific neighborhood in Houston and essentially there was like a blue box on like a map that said if you don't live within this blue box, like within these streets, you are a less committed church member. Now, no one actually said that sentence out loud. There was usually like churchy language that said, to be more effective, you need to live within this blue box. You know, they kind of like layer it.

Speaker 2: 35:55

But there was kind of a, a bullet, like a, like a social stigma for those who decided to live outside the blue box, even if it was just a block over. You know what I mean. It's like, oh well, you didn't, you didn't, and it only took. Like when more and more people began living outside of the blue box, they kind of let go of that a bit more. But still that that when you start a church in a community in that way, you can never really get rid of that sort of um, that sort of control or that sort of like judgmental. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 36:30

So that's foundation.

Speaker 2: 36:32

Yeah, so we moved, we moved, we um moved out. So everything happened like the fallout happened in 2020. So, um, it was kind of like the crisis of our family was kind of hidden in and amongst the crisis of the world. And so we, uh, we moved out the next year, um, and we found how we still live in the area, we still have family in the area, my husband still works in the area, um, but I thought if we could just get out of that specific like, get out of the crater where everything kind of exploded, um, I just needed more space. If I'm being honest, I wanted to go out of state. I was like, let's look for overseas assignments, let's look for, but I mean it's 2020 and the world's falling apart. We've got to, like, accept whatever jobs and positions that come our family's way. So we are still in Houston, but we are not in that neighborhood, thankfully.

Speaker 1: 37:30

Yeah, awesome. So what was it that inspired you to write your book?

Speaker 2: 37:36

Well, this is a great segue because, um, I turned to writing, uh, I looked for jobs. I did look for jobs. After, um, they let me go and there was nothing to be. It's 2020, like nothing is happening. And so I remember, uh, uh, I did apply for another writing job and I I didn't get it because, um, I didn't have enough experience and I thought, well, how do you get experience writing? You know what I mean? Like, who gate keeps that? Do I need to have like some sort of degree? Like I, I don't even know Like, this is not one of those was like cranking out, like applying, applying, applying.

Speaker 2: 38:34

I'm so disenfranchised by the application process. That process sucks. If anyone is going through it, I'm so sorry. It is like it is disheartening to go through. And there was another piece of me that just gave up and I asked my husband. I said, what if I really give writing a shot? I think I'm pretty good at it.

Speaker 2: 38:52

I've always been a creative I. Um, if, if anyone goes to pick up other I, I was given the privilege of drawing my own book cover. That is very rare from what I understand. Um, and yeah, I love. I was like I want something dark. Please don't give me like a christ woman, like I don't want pink, I don't. I mean, I respect ground. I don't want watercolor. I'm not that. I'm not that. You know what I mean. I've got tattoos. I've got a nose like I'm kind of alternative looking and um, and I, I like the way, I like my tattoos. I like being kind of a dark and moodier personality but also gentle and compassionate. I don't think everything has to be sunshine and daisies. And so I thought, anyway, that's kind of how I was inspired by the book cover.

Speaker 2: 39:39

But I've always been a creative and I thought I can figure out how to be a writer. I can, I can make a concerted effort and I realized I think I'm pretty good at it. I don't think I'm bad. I'm still, you know, still trying to work through the. You know just the technical. Like you know what is passive. I mean, I know what passive voice is now, but you know things like that. It's like constructing better sentences and learning the craft very well. But I sure as hell know my message and I know that the message is we aren't supposed to be treating people this way in the church and that like I can hoot and holler about that all day long. I just, if you want to give me 60,000 words, I can, I can and so I had this book idea and I thought I'm I'm's not a memoir, but I can use pieces of my story to and like tie that in with like.

Speaker 2: 40:41

This is why, like, I experienced this and this is like also how it was experienced in the Bible. This is how, like, trauma speaks to the like, trauma language and clinical language speaks to this. Today, my undergrad is in behavioral health science, so I studied some trauma and abnormal psych and stuff like that and I thought I can weave these things together to try to provide a more cohesive picture and I I feel very proud of the book and I realized I just want to write the book, that I can't even explain how crazy and confused I felt, and I wanted to write the book so that other people didn't feel the shame or confusion that I felt like. If I could help liberate people from that, then I will have done my job. So, yeah, that was really the inspiration and I wrote the book I needed and I also wrote the book that I think people still need.

Speaker 1: 41:39

That's something I've learned about creative expression is that you really, if you do it for yourself, it will. The byproduct is that it will affect other people. Yeah, write it for other people, it's not going to be quite the same as if you're writing it to heal yourself. It's like alchemizing that pain and all of that ugly into something really beautiful and useful. Yeah, yeah, I think that that's beautiful. It's a great way to you know, to share what you went through and to turn it into something that you can love. You know, you have this beautiful book that you love and it came from something that was really ugly and harmful and painful. And that's what creativity does, right, it helps us to to alchemize feelings.

Speaker 2: 42:22

Yeah, and there was certainly I realized some of these words I'm writing they're just for me and so, like I I kind of, whenever you write and become more attuned to the process of writing and how you write as an individual, versus like how other people write, I kind of start picking up oh, this is like, this is like flashing everybody and I need to maybe not put that in a book. You know, it's like feeling like I've just been pants inside of the school lunchroom. I need to maybe not include that. I need to kind of work with that a little bit more privately before I put. I don't think I've like necessarily touched on how that needs to be healed within me, um and so. But the other things that I could include, um, I thought I need to include the things that I think I would genuinely they're not only helpful for me but they've been helpful for other people, and so it really is a work of like I wanted this to be a communal thing.

Speaker 2: 43:19

There are certainly things that in my story that like like other people don't. You know I talk about being Filipino American, but I also know that, like it's not only Filipino American people who experienced spiritual abuse in the church. That's so limiting and that's so and I was like I want. I want people who have been divorced to feel seen, who feel the stigma of divorce in the church. I want people who have disabilities or chronic illness to feel seen. I want people who are newer, divergent or part of the queer community, the LGBTQ plus community, I want them to feel seen. You know so I tried to. While that's not, I wrote from my experience, but I tried to make it expansive and accessible to others.

Speaker 1: 43:58

That's awesome. Well, considering the name of the theme of the book, that makes sense, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:08

Totally. That's how I felt about this podcast. It was like I've been in the process of writing a book for a couple of years now about my spiritual journey and all of it, and the podcast was more. Like people kept coming to me Whenever I would talk about the book, they would tell me their stories and I'm like I just wanted to create a community for everyone. Like there's no, like you're not allowed here.

Speaker 1: 44:31

You know I've reached out to a couple of atheists who haven't, haven't bought in yet, but then I'm like it's not, this isn't like you have to be under one certain thing or be a certain thing. Like this is inclusive of everyone these conversations, even if you didn't grow up in the evangelical church. It applies to the indoctrination that we all experienced just by being in the world, especially in the United States. And you know, as a woman, as a biracial woman, like all of that comes with or without the church, and so there's gold in it for everyone. And I feel like that's what you've done with your book, is you've put gold in there for everyone.

Speaker 2: 45:07

Yeah, I even tell I also, because it does have theology. I usually, like I have friends who have totally deconverted. Even my husband is kind of on a different faith journey from myself, and so I tell him you don't have to read it. Like he was born and raised within the SBC, the Southern Baptist Convention, which I know, which I feel like is the most I mean, it is the biggest evangelical denomination in the United States. And so I tell him, like, don't force yourself to read my book if it's going to be triggering. And I tell that to my friend, my deconverted friends too Like I want to send you a copy or you know, as a gift, but I don't want you to feel the pressure to promote something that you no longer identify with. But if you think it might be helpful for someone else, it's there.

Speaker 2: 46:04

But I also am not like put out if people disagree with me. I don't know if I will disagree with me in five years. You know what I mean. I try to give space for everyone, but I also give myself space to change and transform and grow. And yeah, so that's my heart and that's what I really hope for. I know everyone's in process.

Speaker 1: 46:19

What's that like with your husband being in this, in a completely like in a different place spiritually, because I understand the influence that that has on the home. Anybody who's been in the church would, yeah, like, how does that work?

Speaker 2: 46:32

I feel like it doesn't. So we've known each other since we were 17. We've been married almost 16 years. We've been together as a couple for 20 years. I was a new Christian.

Speaker 2: 46:48

Whenever he and I first started dating, we were not at the same church, so our marriage was not like a purity culture you have to get married now or like it was a you're my person and, like my therapist told, I was telling my therapist the story about how I had been in really borderline abusive relationships as a teenager and how that maybe have been a pattern in my family and I was falling into these abusive relationships with boyfriends and I had sworn off. I was like I'm not getting a boyfriend, I'm 17 at the time. But I told my therapist how, when I met my husband as a teenager, he was the gentlest, kindest. He makes space for people. My favorite thing to do in the world is to make him laugh and that has been the core of our relationship is just delight and enjoying life with one another. I think the church would say that we are unequally yoked, and I am doing air quotes there. I think, if anything, we are more yoked equally than ever. I think being and equally yoked means making space for another person to like. I mean, when you talk about yoking, it's like you know oxen, they're yoked to pull a thing or whatever the thing is is like I feel like I have the energy to carry my faith. My faith isn't all about the man. You know, I don't need, like him, to be my spiritual head. I have other community that can speak into that. And because I've fostered that, I've given him space to kind of work things out with his faith, and so I think it's pretty rad. I think our marriage is really cool. I like where we. I really like where we are.

Speaker 2: 48:43

I love that he feels safety with me to tell me these things, because I would I would be more heartbroken if he would have was hiding it from me Because he would be doing that, would be doing what he'd been doing with other people is the fear of hell is so ingrained with him he would just not share anything with anyone. And there was a, there was a moment where he said you know, I'm really worried that you're writing like your book or like your. You know, your work as a writer will be impacted if they find out that, like I don't know what I believe anymore and I thought no man like I make space for you to like I would. I would not be walking the walk or walking what I talk if I was ostracizing you like I want you to feel free, like to tell me or not tell me what you do or don't believe, and know that I will love you. And so, yeah, I feel like we have a marriage that's not under the threat of hell and I couldn't be more grateful.

Speaker 1: 49:46

Yeah, yeah, and if there's any version of a godly marriage again, I'm also doing air quotes on that I I feel like that that's an example of it. Like, yeah, everyone's space to be their authentic selves, loving them unconditionally, seeing them as they are, that's beautiful. Yeah, you think I'm really happy for you, that you, that you've had that I love. I love hearing these details of people's stories, because there isn't a cookie cutter, anything, situation for anything, and and I feel like we can all find parts of ourselves and other stories, and even if it's not all of the parts, and it's just really wonderful to have somebody here that has a much different take on it than a lot of people.

Speaker 2: 50:33

Yeah, I mean, I think that might be a benefit of like. Okay, so my religious background is I was baptized in the Catholic Church. That is a culturally Filipino phenomenon. That's just what you do Functionally raised without any religion. Except I was in the South. So I feel like Southern Baptist, like conservative values are just kind of in the water in tech, like Southeast Texas. You know what I mean. So there's like a morality there. But I didn't go to church. I did not go to church.

Speaker 2: 51:03

My dad was more or less an atheist. He if I he's probably he's no longer with us, he passed over a decade ago. But if I could, if anyone asked me to ever identify the person in my life or someone I knew that was the most angry at God and like, like if God were a person, my dad would fight him Like it would be my dad. My dad was openly antagonistic toward faith and like he would say, say sometimes he would say like he was an atheist and sometimes he would say I don't know. So I know that even in my dad there was a process there and I couldn't necessarily pin that in just one sentence about him. You know, um, but we also kept buddhas in the house like statues of buddha, that is like just a Filipino thing. I found out later that other white family members thought we were heathens because we kept Buddhas in the house, because that's not something you do in Southeast Texas. And also like my dad had books on top of books on top of books and some of the books he had were on Wiccan ceremonies, so like like actual witchcraft.

Speaker 2: 52:09

So I tell people if you're weird, or if you think you're weird and like you're worried about me and engaging me and me learning that you're weird, I will say please bring. Like you're weird is welcome. I want to know. Like I am a champion for the weird, I am much more antagonistic toward like try to be normal, like I don't want to be normal, because often what's normal is so harmful. So I would much rather be a sanctuary for people who are weird than try to conform to some cookie cutter mold that's like forged in the fire of the empire. You know what I mean. Like I just really.

Speaker 2: 52:47

I hate it, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:48

Brown talks about that, like the meaning of like, belonging, like in, fitting in, or the opposites. Right, fitting in no doubt you're doing something that's not in alignment with your authenticity, with your authentic self. It's just by nature. In order to fit in, you're complying with a status quo of some sort. But to belong is to belong to yourself, to fully own and belong to all of what you are, and I feel like that gets convoluted A lot of times. People are trying to fit in, but that's the quickest way to lose yourself. So again, it's weird. Weird is welcome here. It's the only way we know how, only way we know how. Yeah, it's the only way. There's no, no fake, no pretending. I did a lot of too much of that in my youth to bring it into into this part of my life.

Speaker 2: 53:39

So yeah, I love Brene Brown has something in her book Um, I think it's braving the wilderness where she says, like have a strong back, like no, unflinchingly, this is who you are, but also have an open front, meaning you're willing to engage with other people who aren't like you or you know, like uncompromising but also inviting, and I that's kind of like where I land too.

Speaker 1: 54:02

That's beautiful. I love that. I was thinking about your husband. I did episode four with my cousin Brittany, because we both grew up in this. You know, church together or whatever. And she's like you're talking about the fear of going to hell, like you're afraid to question things because thinking it is as bad as doing it right, and in church language, and just even like questioning and it's going to, you know, send you straight to hell. And so I ask, you know, I always ask everybody like what's their kind of pointers for anybody who's in this space? And she's like do the blaspheme, do it. And once you see you're not going to hell, then everything will be okay. Just do that thing that you're afraid to do. I promise, rip off the band-aid and you'll be okay. So I always think of that like just do it. Just do it, you're going to be all right. Just do it. Just, yeah, do it, you're gonna be all right if it's not, you can always ask for forgiveness, right?

Speaker 2: 54:53

yeah, I mean, you're going to be like, the likelihood that someone, um will still call you a heathen and a heretic is high anyway. So I mean, usually I say like, just don't do any harm, just don't harm or dehumanize other people, um, and kind of begin exploring. Um, I mean, gosh, I think about like the church father so I'm actually in seminary, um, and I think about, like so many of the theologians that I'm studying, I do not align with, but how, even them, they were like coin or they were called heretics and heathens too, and the Catholic church was trying to burn them for not adhering to tradition. And I think, well, we're still doing the same like thing I almost said cuss words Like we're still doing the same damn thing. You know what I mean. But like we like, why are we still and it's usually under like the unity of Christ and the conformity and da, da, da, da, da. But we've conformed unity in Christ with like this weird assimilation that actually is really harmful and what is not called of us like that is also not biblical.

Speaker 2: 56:05

But like people have done these theological gymnastics to say assimilation is unity. So you have to, you, you have to look this way, you have to dress this way, you have to, you know, not ask questions or not watch these certain TV shows, whereas I grew up watching the TV shows, and I grew up you know what I mean and I like I wasn't beyond the grasp of God. I mean, I grew up so different from my husband. We were just talking about, um, do you ever watch Beavis and Butthead the cartoon? Okay, um, because there's some Christian kids that like know they're not supposed to watch it, but they watch it anyway when we were like a friend's house not at my house we didn't have a tv.

Speaker 1: 56:48

Did we bust the tv in the woods every couple of years?

Speaker 2: 56:51

so yeah, my husband was such a like a. He was like I'm not gonna upset anyone and so he never watched it. And so I made a beavis and butthead like reference the other day and he was like I have no idea what you're talking about and I was like it beavis and butthead, you know how they pull the shirt over and like they put it on the head and like they do this. And he was like I don't know what you're talking about and I was like, OK, we grew up with very different childhoods and so I welcome that. I also remember this is a silly side story, but I listen to LL Cool J as you do when you're not, when you are not raised in the church, and you know there's that LL Cool J as you do when you're not, when you were not raised in the church, and you know there's that LL Cool J song where he goes.

Speaker 2: 57:33

I'm gonna knock you out and I'm just walking around my house. This is probably eight years ago or so. I was walking around the house saying like kind of like riffing on the song I know, and my husband's like what the heck are you saying? And I was like it's LL Cool J and he was like I didn like it's LL Cool J and he was like I didn't listen to LL Cool J, I listened to Stephen Curtis.

Speaker 2: 57:54

Chapman and I was like I don't know who that is, you know, amy Grant, yeah, and so it's just one of those things where I think, okay, I'm being weird and I'm showing my weird, but I'm also like, come on, man, like be welcomed into the weird, like learn the. Yeah, let's go. Let's go watch Beavis and Butthead I'm sure they've got like the series somewhere. So, yeah, I love that that's, yeah, interesting.

Speaker 1: 58:18

I'm curious to see how how this all evolves. I would love to check in with you at a later date and see where this is standing. But yeah, I, I totally, um, I hear you on that. Sometimes I feel like so experienced and sometimes I feel so sheltered and things I'm like, oh yeah, I missed, I missed that one somewhere along the way, like at one point. Like going to the movies was a sin and going to six flags was a sin. It was just, you know it was. You know it was like whack-a-mole with the sins. Everything felt like a sin, you know, depending on one point. It was the posters of pop bands in our room. You know that was bringing demons into the house and I had NSYNC on my wall.

Speaker 2: 59:07

I Spice Girls. I was just listening to Spice Girls the other day. I listened to all of it. Now I actually reframe sin Like I don't think sin is just like. I actually think sin is trauma. I think we are all traumatized and I would like to think the more that trauma language gets into the churches, like people will become more compassionate. But knowing what I know of church history is, it all gets twisted and it all gets manipulated and I just think, man, like it's almost like that what Jesus says on the cross forgive them, father. They know not what they do. Like I really believe, like people don't know what they're doing, they don't know how they're harming other people and it's really tragic.

Speaker 1: 59:51

So, yeah, I think that that's true for the majority. I do think that, especially in the leadership, a lot of them do know what they're doing. But for the majority of people who are in this evangelicalism, they don't know. They really believe that it's the right thing. I mean, I bought into it. I was trying to save souls left and right, bought into it, I was trying to save souls left and right and I really believed that that was truth and that I was saving people. So I know, even when my family is still trying to save me now, save me from all this joy and wonderfulness, I'm experiencing that in their hearts it's real, it's true, even though it's dehumanizing to me and not acknowledging that, yeah, a way of life is valid or could be fulfilling in any way. But in their hearts they really do care for my soul and I feel like you want to.

Speaker 2: 1:00:37

Yeah, like you want to that's the biggest offense you want to like. Sometimes I know, like for other some people, when they talk about stuff like that with their family, it gets them so mad because they're like I don't want input anymore. And now I'm at the point where, like, if people try to like, I'm so sad for you. Like, because you'll never experience like joy or goodness. You will always think that the earth is some place that we're supposed to escape. When the meek are supposed to inherit the freaking earth, and like, you know what I mean Like it's not a place to escape. When the meek are supposed to inherit the freaking earth, and like you know what I mean Like it's not a place to escape.

Speaker 2: 1:01:13

It's a place to cultivate beauty and goodness and delight and joy. But you can't do that when you're so afraid of hell and the hammer of God all the daggum time. So I get really sad. I'm at the point in my processing and my healing where I can be sad. Sometimes I get super angry and sometimes my sadness looks like anger. But oftentimes I can just think what's happening to them is happening to them and they don't. They're just projecting, you know, their truth of their story or what they think is the truth onto me. Whenever I've, I've grown beyond that and that's okay, and I can be sad for them.

Speaker 1: 1:01:55

Yeah, I feel that way too. I get that. Yeah, Um, I won't respond with like anger or like leave me alone or whatever. I'm just like this is what I believe. You're welcome to believe what you want. Trying to convince me otherwise is a waste of your time. I love you.

Speaker 2: 1:02:10

You're always welcome to my face.

Speaker 1: 1:02:12

as long as you're being kind, I'm not going to buy into that or get sucked into that division.

Speaker 2: 1:02:21

Yeah, one thing that I've begun to tell people who are much more theologically conservative than I am. I tell them you know, that's great, like I respect. I'm just asking for mutual respect for where I am, and if you can't make space for me, that's okay. I know how to make space for me, and oftentimes that means I am disengaging for this conversation and I will say that to them only so many times and then after that I am out. But I've also not only experienced that on the.

Speaker 2: 1:02:56

You experience that on both poles, whether it's like the very, very conservative right or like the very leftist. Like there's a there is in progressive Christianity. People can be equally intolerant even as they preach tolerance. They can also be racist even though they preach for equality. You know. So, like I, I realize I am not going to exist. Polarization is not the way and I I'm not really advocating for a healthy middle, because I think the middle gets muddled too. I'm advocating for being in flux. Like, let me. I'm moving, I'm not static, so let me be in flux and I just need to safely navigate this the best that I can with the tools and the resources I have, and my responsibility is resourcing myself and if I have the space to resource other people, I'm going to do that too, and othered is essentially just one way I try to do that for people.

Speaker 1: 1:03:56

It's a wonderful gift that you've created and that's really beautiful. So, in closing, I always ask people like what piece of advice that they have for the person who's questioning or wanting to leave? But I'm going to be a little more specific with you because I feel like you have something specific to offer that, as far as someone who is questioning or wanting to leave but also feels highly invested, like, what advice would you give?

Speaker 2: 1:04:26

It is not your responsibility to change a toxic system. Um, it is not your responsibility, like I think we are so in ingrained with. Uh, it's my responsibility to save souls. It's not like I know what it is to love the people that you feel like are being harmful and toxic toward you, but sometimes the only way that they'll be able to see is if you leave. And it's so interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:04:58

I met with a pastor a few months ago and he looked at me he still works there and he looked at me and he asked what does healing look like? And I stopped and I thought healing for me, healing for you, healing between us? And he was like all of it. And in the moment I didn't say this to him and in the moment I thought I don't I mean, I did say this to him I was like I don't need you to heal. But internally I was thinking, oh my gosh, he's still in the toxic system. And it's almost like looking at a radioactive person who's asking you what does healing look like? Like, what does it look like to be well? And you can't tell them or they won't even be able to grasp it, because they're still there, they're still in it every day playing the game, being a piece of the machine but still being.

Speaker 2: 1:05:46

I think they themselves are also dehumanized by the whole system and they can't see it. So it's not your responsibility to change toxicity. If you want to love your neighbor as yourself, like maybe leaving is loving yourself, and loving your neighbor by telling them I am no longer subjecting myself to this sort of treatment. I don't believe anyone should be. If anyone else were in this position, I would tell them to leave to take care of themselves, to like, because it's trauma. I'm not going to advocate for someone to stay in a traumatic situation, but sometimes it's so hard to name that trauma because it's the church it's supposed to be good.

Speaker 1: 1:06:27

So wrapped up in this like bow of surface service.

Speaker 2: 1:06:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:31

Good yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:33

Jesus left to Jesus, went into the wilderness. He actively walked out into the wilderness when the crowds were too thick, when people were trying to kill him. I don't advocate for staying as a way of being grace gracious, like Jesus made space and he was God in skin. You know what I mean. Like he walked away and he needed a second to like retreat. So retreat, that is not unfaithful, that is not um bad, it's really good.

Speaker 1: 1:07:02

Yeah, yeah, awesome. Thank you for that. I appreciate that very much. Yeah, so for everybody who's listening, I'm going to put links for everything from tonight in the description. It'll also be in the following blog post that comes out in a couple of weeks, so you can find her on social media, you can find her book, you can find all the good things and thank you for being here. Thank you for your time, thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate you and the way that you're showing up in the world. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:07:31

Yeah, thank you. This was really fun. It just felt like coffee with a friend.