Jessica Hawkins: Emotional Intelligence and Conflict Resolution at Work

In the hustle and bustle of today's work world, where stress and burnout are all too common, embracing empathetic conflict resolution is key to cultivating vibrant and supportive workplaces.

Join Jessica Hawkins, Leadership Coach, Workplace Mediator, Solution-Focused Trainer, and Founder of Better Conflict, as we dive into the dynamics of workplace conflicts and the influence of our body's signals on emotions and decision-making. 

Together, we'll dissect the 'conflict pyramid,' revealing how minor irritations can snowball into major crises and the importance of early conflict intervention.

Key takeaways:

1. Early conflict resolution contributes to healthier work environments by preventing escalation.
2. Acknowledging and understanding emotional reactions improves emotional intelligence and workplace communication.
3. Practicing self-regulation empowers individuals to manage conflicts effectively, fostering constructive communication even in challenging situations.

Jessica's links:

• Website: https://www.betterconflict.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-hawkins-betterconflict/  
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jesshawkins11/ 
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jessica.hawkins.33 

Hi, I'm your podcast host Keita Demming: Author, Advisor, Thought Partner & Coach.

I'm an award-winning educator and coach with a PhD in Adult Education and Workplace Learning who works to transform companies into places that are idea-driven and people-centered.

At The Covenant Group, I design training programs and coach entrepreneurs and business leaders to meet their strategic goals and build their businesses.

In my book, Strategy to Action: Run Your Business Without It Running You, I introduce an effective and straightforward tool to elevate your skills as a business professional and navigate the corporate world. The book offers practical insights on transforming strategies into tangible results.

Follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and subscribe to my Newsletter.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

And what's really interesting is, if you think of like this highway, with all these trucks of information going up and down between the brain and the body, what's happening is 80% of that information is actually coming from the body up. Only 20% is going from the brain down, and what that means is we think the brain is in charge but actually, depending on what information is coming up and emotions are part of that information that's coming up our state will shift. We are not making a choice to go into fight flight. We're not making a choice to disconnect, to retreat, to disappear. That's not something we're making a choice over and I think understanding that for me is it removes that shame and blame. It takes away that moral meaning that we give when someone gets very reactivated.

Speaker 2: 1:04

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Conversations with Kita Deming. In this podcast, we explore the importance or insights from two important questions how do we become better people in business and how do we become better business people? Today, I'm going to be in conversation with Jessica Hawkins, who she really focuses on conflict and how moving to conflict faster helps us become much better people in business and better people in general. One of the biggest insights for her is that sometimes the way people are behaving when they're upset is not actually their choice, and I found that to be a very interesting piece of our conversation. And if you'd like to learn more, stick around for this wonderful conversation around how conflict plays a role in you becoming a high achiever. Hope you enjoy today's episode. So can you tell us what's your role as a conflict coach, consultant, specialist? What does that typically involve?

Speaker 1: 2:10

Yeah, so there's kind of three pillars that that typically involves. So usually what happens is people will come to me or people will get sent to me, either when they're needing to prepare for a difficult conversation, and so I help through conflict coaching to prepare for that. They'll get sent to me by the organization or even by other coaches because they're considered to be a quote unquote difficult person, so having trouble maybe regulating their own behavior, regulating their own emotions in the workplace, and that's having a negative trickle effect on their colleagues, on their team, on the organization as a whole, and then when things escalate. So you and I have talked about this conflict pyramid in the past, and so I'll just really quickly highlight that because I think it's a great framework to shape an understanding of bringing an awareness to the levels of conflict and the different types of thinking that we need, the different communication, different resources that we need around that. But basically, if we look at conflict in a pyramid and the bottom layer is these bleeps, these everyday occurrences, something that might be a minor annoyance, something that's happening that might irk us, but it's really not a big deal, and then we move up from there. If that keeps happening over and over again, and we've made a clear request. We've asked someone hey, can you stop doing that? That's really frustrating for me, or hey, can you do this thing differently?

Speaker 1: 3:44

Once it repeats itself over and over again, what happens is we move up into the level of clashes, and so there's everyday clashes.

Speaker 1: 3:52

You know, at home it might be someone leaving dirty dishes lying around At work.

Speaker 1: 3:57

It could be that person that you know never gets off the call on time or writes really, really long emails that you don't have time to read micromanaging and at that point there's a lot of opportunity to deal with things and a lot of times there's an awareness that builds okay, there's something wrong here, we need to do something about it. But what happens is we're a very conflict-avoidant culture. There's a recent study on Canadian workplaces and I think it identified 69% of employees avoid conflict, and when we avoid it, it doesn't usually go away. It escalates, and what happens is it can cross over that threshold into what's called a crisis mode. And so what I do, what usually happens, is that people will come to me. Once it's crossed over into crisis mode, they no longer know what to do with it anymore. They're still open to dialogue and I help sit with them as a mediator, as a neutral third party facilitator, to work through that dialogue and see if they can get unstuck and move forward together.

Speaker 2: 5:03

I've seen you do this many times and I've also sent many clients to you. I call Jessica a magician because I think she's done some magical things with some of the clients where I thought it was hopeless. And you send that to Jessica and she has a way of just helping people get on the same page, remind them of what their common interests and what they were trying to work together on. Before we go to the questions that we have. You said something that I think is important. You said when the conflict escalates, can we just double-click on that a little bit before we go into the rest of your stuff? So the reason I'm double-clicking on that is both of us experience as a coach.

Speaker 2: 5:50

One of the things I've been telling people a lot is I prefer that you come to me early, before things become a crisis, because it's easier for me to work with you when it's not a crisis. And you have the similar thing where we have been on countless situations where somebody has been on a call with you. They're thinking of engaging with you and then six months later they call you oh man, I definitely need you now, versus when they engage with you the six months when they first made that call it would have been much easier. Let's talk a little bit about that. And what do you wish people understood about moving faster there?

Speaker 1: 6:30

I wish I think people understand it. I think they actually understand it cognitively. But the problem is it takes a lot of energy, it takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of resources to bring in a third party to facilitate these things. It also takes the ability to acknowledge that it's a problem in the first place, enough that it actually needs an intervention like that. I think people understand it. But I think what they don't understand is, if they don't get proactive about conflict, that it will cost them far more in the long run, because now we have a much longer runway to try to get to where we're trying to go mode or they miss the opportunity altogether and their dialogue opportunity is completely shut down. And once that happens, then we're looking at a lot of negative repercussions, like people getting fired, organizations having a lot of problems associated with all the negative consequences of conflicts escalated into crisis associated with all the negative consequences of conflicts escalated into crisis.

Speaker 2: 7:45

So would that be similar to what some of the main factors contributing to conflict in the workplace, or is that different?

Speaker 1: 7:54

I think it's sort of two sides of a coin or, you know, it's probably more like a Rubik's Cube. There's a lot of different factors that play into it. So I think one of the things that I'm noticing the most in the clients that are coming to me and in the organizations that I've been working with is that and I really feel for HR right now I really do because I think their job is highly complex so there's five generations in the workforce right now. Just that in and of itself, the difference in perspective, world views, approaches. You know, I will work with some of the leaders who are in the, you know, ready to retire generation. They have a completely different perspective on whether emotions should even be part. They're like, what do you mean? How is this even relevant?

Speaker 1: 8:50

Like we're here to do our job and then we have, you know, diversity and inclusion initiatives, which are incredible, but they do create problems associated with that as well in terms of welcoming differences and whether or not people are comfortable with the different perspectives that then come into a workplace. There's more opportunity for difference of opinions, which is a great thing if we can work with it. It can also cause clashes and tension, but I think the biggest thing for me right now is really noticing what some people are calling the epidemic of stress, the stress epidemic. There's a burnout epidemic, there's a stress epidemic and it's completely shifting the baseline from which people themselves are able to have the capacity to deal with interpersonal differences and emotional tensions in the first place. So it's lifting the bar up as a baseline into more of that clash zone, and we're starting from there.

Speaker 2: 9:55

So I want to add something to that. So you talk about a burnout epidemic, distress epidemic, and we're also in the isolation epidemic. So we have this loneliness era where we're in, and I think, when it comes to conflict, that also is definitely double-clicking on that. That's definitely contributing to that, and I also think that the biggest piece around this is the way we've thought about conflict, and the way we think about dealing with human beings is changing. So the traditional approach has been punitive, or let's write a policy on this particular thing, or we need to handle this conflict with a stick rather than trying to get behind what are the real causes behind that, rather than trying to get behind what are the real causes behind that. So can you talk a little bit about why the traditional approach kind of often doesn't work when it comes to dealing?

Speaker 1: 10:54

with conflict in the workplace? Yeah, absolutely, and I think there's a lot of change happening around that. I think there's a lot of initiatives to get more proactive. There's a lot of awareness around mental health and mental wellness to get more proactive. There's a lot of awareness around mental health and mental wellness. I think there's a lot of shift in the approach from punitive to more of a coaching approach Definitely seen an increase in that over the years, but I still think that.

Speaker 1: 11:33

So there's two things. One is the systems perspective. So what are the systems that the organization has involved for dealing with disruptions in the workplace? And typically what we see is there's a harassment, there's something that happens, it goes to investigations first, to investigations first, and once it goes to investigations I mean this is a more formal system there's a lot of division. That happens. There's a lot of divisiveness. That happens. There's a lot of fault finding and what that does is it creates an environment where safety, respect and all the things that are needed for people to be able to engage in dialogue with each other come offline. And so I think it's about rethinking the order of how we're approaching conflict and what frameworks we have in place for dealing with it bringing in a coaching perspective, bringing in a mediation, a neutral third-party facilitation before going to investigation or punitive measures.

Speaker 2: 12:34

What do you say to the person who is hurt, feels like somebody has done them wrong and they want punitive measures, they want accountability? How do we have a conversation with that person who believes like, hey, you need to be punished for this thing. How do we even have that conversation with those people?

Speaker 1: 12:56

I think it's about how managers, how leaders, how coworkers are approaching problems in the first place.

Speaker 1: 13:08

So I really think that managers need to learn how to have the conversations that create a supportive, understanding environment.

Speaker 1: 13:21

I think what happens is people can be open to dialogue, to perspective taking, but when they're feeling hurt, when they're feeling attacked, when they're feeling unsafe because of something that someone else did a colleague or a boss they go into a defensive mode and before we can talk about fixing the problem, they're wanting something to happen.

Speaker 1: 13:47

So I'm not talking about when there is a clear case of sexual harassment or emotional harassment. I think those things really need to be handled very delicately. I'm talking about everyday interpersonal clashes that tend to escalate over time and become conflicts and crises, and I think the baseline is that people need to have their feelings validated and acknowledged. They need to have an awareness of what is happening within their own nervous system, within their own physiology, and how they're reacting to their perception of what is happening within their own nervous system, within their own physiology, and how they're reacting to their perception of what is going on, and then we can move into opening up the dialogue. To what? What is it that we need in order to move forward, and how do we take those next steps?

Speaker 2: 14:40

So one of the things I don't I don't think it's fair to ask you this question, but I think one of the things we need to acknowledge is when it's not a clear violation, but one side of it thinks it's a clear violation, but when HR or whoever looks at it, it's like this is not clear. This is super ambiguous, super vague. This can be interpreted in this particular way. It can be interpreted in another way. You're super vague. This can be interpreted in this particular way. It can be interpreted in another way.

Speaker 2: 15:09

And we see this all the time, which is why I ask about for that person who wants retribution, they want justice, they feel violated and when you go back and look at the facts or they come back in an investigation, the investigation says, hey, that wasn't a clear violation. These are some different ways. We could approve of it. That person then says, well, something's wrong with your investigation and I think we're living in tricky times. I don't want to dump into that conversation with you because that's a whole kettle of fish that I think is important, but I think let's double-click on the role of coaching and fostering better conversations as an alternative approach to, like punitive or policy-driven kind of approaches. Let's hear some of your thoughts around that.

Speaker 1: 15:54

So I don't think it's an either or I think it's important to have the accountability. I think it's important to have the investigation if someone feels like their rights have been violated or they've been harassed in the workplace. I also think that having a coaching approach, having the understanding of how to have those conversations in the first place or while this is being undertaken, can make a massive difference in how it all unfolds. So being able to sit with someone's discomfort of feeling defensive, feeling unsafe in the workplace, being able to acknowledge and validate that person's experience, whether or not we agree with it, is exceedingly important. Understanding safety connection precedes resolution. So we need to be able to acknowledge and validate people's experiences before or while we're in the process of also looking at what may or may not be going on.

Speaker 1: 17:02

Objectively speaking, and I think it starts before that, though, the cases that I work with typically are not something that just happened out of the blue. There's two people in a workplace, things started at blips 10 years ago and it's been escalating slowly. A clash here, a clash there and nothing's being done, and you know informal complaints and nothing's being done and the behavior continues, and usually I think it fundamentally comes down to people's lack of awareness of how to act differently, and if that can be addressed proactively, if there can be, you know, conflict competence, trainings in workplaces and systems in place to address these things early, these early warning signs when these clashes are escalating, then we're never going to hit that crisis threshold in the first place. So I think it's about getting proactive and about building in the capability to have those delicate conversations.

Speaker 2: 18:04

There are two things that I often use in my coaching sessions, which is number one. Things happen slowly, slowly, slowly and then suddenly, which is to your point, that the blips have been happening slowly, clashes have been happening slowly, and then crisis appears. That it's sudden, and most things happen slowly, slowly and then suddenly. And then, as you talk about that, the second piece that comes up for me is this idea that I think you and I have both been talking about this offline, which is moving towards difficult conversations faster. Moving towards difficult conversations faster, and my mantra at the moment has been like if I'm working with a client, I'm working with somebody.

Speaker 2: 18:54

part of my job is to help them move to those difficult conversations faster, because nine times out of ten, by the time we decide to move on that difficult conversation, it's way too late. So which is your point? Around those blips are happening. Any thoughts on that before we jump in? And then the third thing that you talked about is you didn't say this, but you said safety comes first. Basically is what you said, and I think unless people feel safe, heard, respected first, everything after that is null and void yeah, I think you're.

Speaker 1: 19:33

I mean, I think you're absolutely right. We, we know, we already agree on this and I'm certainly biased towards believing that I certainly as an informed bias, though it's in my experience, because I can't tell you how many people reach out to me and they're, you know, from organizers, saying, oh, we need help with this now, and I'm like, okay, let's do it. And then I get a call back or an email back two weeks later saying you know what? Something's changed and it's too late. This person's no longer agreeing to be in dialogue. Oh, if we could have just gotten at this, you know, even two weeks ago. It makes such a big difference. But, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 20:12

And one of the things that I think is really important, that I've learned from you and has been difficult for me I shouldn't say it's difficult, but it's easy for me to do in parenting, less so to do in adulting.

Speaker 2: 20:27

Let's put it like I'm dealing with adults which is really having empathy and understanding for the physiological state or how people are feeling coming into a situation and how that plays into how they respond, how they react and how that influences the interaction or behavior or even contributes to escalating the conflict. I completely get that in parenting.

Speaker 2: 20:52

I struggle with that when I'm dealing with adults, because my assumption is get your stuff together, you're an adult, like emotionally regulate, and I have some strict biases and challenges around that. But let's talk about why it's so important for that physiological piece to come into this conversation yeah, absolutely, I mean.

Speaker 1: 21:19

So. One of my favorite quotes and we've talked about this before is from alan I don't know how to say his name alan de. Button. Yeah, that makes more sense and perfectly.

Speaker 1: 21:40

Oh my god, he is one of the funniest human beings I think I've ever listened to and he has this fantastic speech about love and what is love. And love is being generous in our interpretation of another person. And he says what we really need to do is we really need to treat adults more like children. And the first time I heard that I was like what is he talking about? That's so condescending. And then I realized it's not Infantilizing children. And the first time I heard that I was like what is he talking about? That's so condescending. And then I realized it's not Infantilizing children.

Speaker 1: 22:09

Infantilizing.

Speaker 1: 22:09

Like talking down to, I don't know, but fundamentally what it means is having a more generous interpretation of someone's behavior. So I do it all the time when my daughter comes home. She's six years old, she's very attuned to the world around her and sometimes that causes her to switch into, you know, some very difficult to deal with modes. We label them as meltdowns, you know, but actually I think it's just her system not being able to handle all the cues that are coming in at her all the time. And the first thing I do is oh, sweetie, did you eat your lunch today? Or oh, she didn't sleep very well last night. You know she must be tired and I have a very generous interpretation of her behavior.

Speaker 1: 22:57

My husband, on the other hand, will come downstairs and be in a cranky mood, or whatever it may be. And or you know I'll be walking downtown and someone will be acting in a way that I think is, you know, not not super enjoyable to be around as an adult. And do I stop and say, oh, you know, that person must be really hungry. They probably haven't slept much, maybe they're having a tough day.

Speaker 1: 23:25

Sometimes, if I can, I will do that if I'm in the right mode myself, but usually what I end up doing, and what I think most people end up doing, is defaulting to label. So, oh, he is a difficult person or she is oversensitive or she's so unreasonable. She is oversensitive or she's so unreasonable, and I think what's interesting about the labels that we give is that, yes, she is unreasonable and that makes sense if we can understand what's actually going on and I'm not talking about understanding what's going on in their lives, but actually what's going on with them physiologically, biologically, and I think that's the missing piece. So you brought that up already and I fundamentally believe that is the missing piece to us understanding ourselves and each other and being able to show up to those times where we feel much more triggered or much more heightened and reactive emotionally.

Speaker 2: 24:23

Oh man, All kinds of things are coming to mind. You reminded me of a story I don't remember what the author is, but he tells a story of two kids in the New York subway and the guy comes in and the kids are just behaving terribly and this guy is very judgmental of the dad and says to the dad hey, try and get your kids to behave properly, Like your kids are all over the place. And the dad looks at him and says we just came out of the hospital and the mother just died. And it just humbled him to just realize, holy smokes, I completely didn't even take into that consideration of what those kids are going through, which goes back to the whole thing of like in parenting.

Speaker 2: 25:05

It's easy for me to say, okay, what is a good reason for this behavior? Oh, he didn't sleep well last night, he's hungry. I could do that so easily with kids. I struggle with adults because the dominant discourse is that adults should have their emotions together. Adults should push their emotions together, adults should push their emotions down and control their emotions and all that which is highly problematic. And I have a british stoic upbringing which contributes to to me even doubling down and like oh, by the time you're an adult, you better, you better. Your emotions should be in.

Speaker 1: 25:42

Yep.

Speaker 2: 25:44

And I think that causes problems that we know from the research that the more you push down those emotions, the more they pop up. And I'm not even advocating that you should let your emotions run wild and like we call those people who wear the emotions on their wrist. I think there's a fine line there as well, but I am very much against pushing down emotions and trying to be better at acknowledging where this adult is emotionally before getting into that conversation, and that plays a massive role in conflict. So there's one thing we should talk about. So we teach sales at the Cabana Group and one of the things we've been talking about a lot is Jonathan Haidt, who's an author, thought leader.

Speaker 2: 26:35

He talks about thinking about the brain using the metaphor of the rider and the elephant, and the rider is the prefrontal cortex, the logical side, et cetera, and the elephant is the what we quote-unquote primitive part of the brain emotional side of the brain. And one of the things we've been talking a lot about in our work is learning to speak to the elephant. My default is to talk to the rider, and what Jessica and I were musing about before we jumped on this podcast is that you spend most of your time teaching kids. Okay, how do you move from the elephant and start to react and think from the rider? But then when we're talking to adults, we are speaking to them, to the elephant of the it'sitialism.

Speaker 2: 27:22

It's the opposite, whether it's sales or whether it's whatever that situation is, which I think is a fundamental piece around. There is a conversation that we had in society around the role of emotions in how we get things done and where emotions are allowed and what is safe spaces for emotion, because I think I wouldn't be surprised if this culture, the story culture of pushing emotions down, contributes greatly to the kinds of conflicts we have. So yeah, I just spoke way too long there. What are your thoughts on all that happening?

Speaker 1: 28:00

I just did there I have so many thoughts on that, kita, because so, first of all, as you know, I am an emotional intelligence practitioner. I have fully drunk the kool-aid. I fundamentally believe that self-awareness, other awareness, the ability to have interpersonal communication constructively, um is so crucial in everything we do. So there's two things to that. But I also think there's a conversation that's not being had. I think we're starting to talk more about the importance of emotions. We're even starting to talk about why emotions are there in the first place and how we can get curious about them and how we can I know you don't like this word, but I think it's a very important word in understanding this unvalence them. So we valence emotions. We see some as good, some as bad, some as positive, some as negative, some as pro-social, some as anti-social.

Speaker 2: 28:59

So what does it mean to unvalence something? Just tell me what that means. So what does it mean to unveil something? Just tell me what that means.

Speaker 1: 29:04

Okay. So when we veil something, we give it a quality. It's either positive or negative, right, right, and I fundamentally believe and this is based on the work of Carla McLaren she has got a phenomenal theory around all of this that I think everybody should learn. I do want to take the conversation one level deeper, but first I just think this is a really important part of the puzzle.

Speaker 2: 29:29

So just for listeners, the reason I don't like the word valence is because it's just such a big word and people don't know. That's my issue. That's my only issue with the word. I think we need to work really hard to translate the language. Yeah, but anyway, but, but, it's's, it's, it's putting it's, it's a normative, putting a normative spin on a word. So is it? This word is good or bad? This is what is positive or negative. To unbalance them would to be like this word is neutral. Is that a way of saying that?

Speaker 1: 29:59

absolutely so. I also think that language helps give us a framework for understanding things. So maybe balancing and unbalancing isn't a common word, but what if it were? What if we understood things through the lens of balancing? And what difference does it make when we're able to unbalance emotions, when we're able to say, hey, emotions aren't good or bad, anger isn't bad, happiness isn't good. Someone shows up at a funeral happy. That's not pro-social, that's pretty anti-social, right.

Speaker 1: 30:28

And anger comes online for a very good reason. And when, second, we're thinking of it as something negative or bad, we are uncomfortable with it. Right? I grew up my entire life being exceedingly uncomfortable with anger. I was a people pleaser, I was harmony, I was a peace builder. I literally was a peace builder. I worked for the United Nations. I was all about harmony and peace and oh, anger, right.

Speaker 1: 30:56

The problem with that is emotions come up to bring us really important information and if we learn how to work with that information, there's so much that we can do with that. We can really avoid hitting up that that crisis switch, that flip into crisis mode, if we can get comfortable with anger and frustration and anxiety and all these things in the first place. But there's another conversation. That's not happening. That, I think, is exceedingly important to understand emotions and behaviors in the first place. And it's what's happening below that surface. It's what's setting the foundation for all of our experiences, what we think, what we feel, how we act with each other and it is a biological process, it's a neurophysiological process that determines the state we're in dysregulated state, so we can bring that to life a bit when our nervous system is triggered into defense.

Speaker 1: 32:08

So we're talking about safety and fundamentally it just comes down to do we feel safe or do we feel in danger, and that is our nervous system's only job. And when we do not feel safe, it is biologically impossible to access the regions of our brain that bring communication, that bring empathy, that bring creativity, that bring curiosity online. It's biologically impossible. So we can talk about our thinking, how we understand each other, our assumptions, we can talk about our emotions, but the truth is we have access to certain emotions. Certain emotions come online depending on the state of our nervous system. Honestly, if you ask pretty much most people you know, other than maybe your family doctor, your physiotherapist what is your autonomic nervous system, what does it do and how does that play into how you're showing up at work, most people will probably look at you like you're an alien. At least, that's been my experience, and it is the key to understanding how we show up with each other, so I think that is a conversation that really needs to be happening.

Speaker 2: 33:27

So, just for the listener, jessica and I work a lot together. We debate terms and like, let's not use that word, it's alienates an audience and all that. So if that comes across in today's podcast and conversation, and just understand that we do that in a way of making the information better for the clients that we're working with. So if that comes across today, I just wanted to give you some context there. So, for example, what I'm taking away from what you're saying is that emotions are essentially neutral. They're not good or bad, and we need to look at emotions as a form of data from which we can make decisions. That tells us what's important to us or what we value, what we care about. Is that a fair understanding?

Speaker 1: 34:15

of what we're talking about.

Speaker 2: 34:16

It's also what do we value, what do we care about? Is that a fair understanding of what we do? The second piece I think now is a good time. I think we should dive into what we call the safety-danger equation. How does that affect the way people communicate and how we react, particularly in the workplace? I think if we talk about families, it would just be whatever. I think if we talk about families, it would just be whatever, but how?

Speaker 1: 34:43

does the safety-danger equation play out in the workplace? Yeah, so I think for me, what I'm most curious about these days is how our autonomic nervous system is affecting the way we show up to ourselves and the way we show up to each other. We show up to ourselves and the way we show up to each other, and I think it's important to quickly introduce the autonomic nervous system if we're going to be having a conversation around it. So, basically, the autonomic nervous system is our automatic nervous system, so it regulates our breathing, our heart rate. It does all our digestion, our sweat glands. All these things happen automatically, and I think most people have an understanding of that At least I know I did before I started studying this Because if you had to think about every beat your heart took, or if you had to think about every sweat gland that was producing sweat to cool you down, you wouldn't have any resources left to basically do anything else. You won't be able to sleep, all that stuff. So the autonomic nervous system does that, which is really important, but what it also does.

Speaker 1: 35:50

If you think about this, we all think the brain is running the show, and I think this is really interesting to understand. The nervous system is happening below the level of the brain is running the show, and I think this is really interesting to understand. The nervous system is happening below the level of the brain. It's happening in the brainstem and it's basically this like super communication highway that's communicating between the brain and the body and what's really interesting. So if you think of like this highway, with all these trucks of information going up and down between the brain and the body, what's happening is 80% of that information is actually coming from the body up. Only 20% is going from the brain down, and what that means is we think the brain is in charge, but actually, depending on what information is coming up and emotions are part of that information that's coming up our state will shift, and it will shift in one of three ways. We will either be in a place of feeling safe and connected. We will. If we don't feel safe and connected, we will move into what's called sympathetic activation. So that's the sympathetic nervous system will come online and a lot of people recognize that's the fight flight mode. It mobilizes energy to help you protect yourself, defend yourself or run away, and when that doesn't work, we move into a state of disconnect, of shutdown, because we need to protect.

Speaker 1: 37:22

This is an evolutionary system. This is developed over hundreds of millions of years and it's in our body, it's baked in. It's this automatic process. It's below the level of awareness. It's happening at a subconscious level and a neurophysiological level. We are not making a choice to go into fight flight. We're not making a choice to disconnect, to retreat, to disappear. That's not something we're making a choice over and I think understanding that for me, and especially in the work that I do when I'm sitting in these very emotionally tense conversations with people or I'm working with people who are in very emotionally reactivated states they're in full defense mode is it removes that shame and blame.

Speaker 1: 38:11

It takes away that moral meaning that we give when someone gets very reactivated and we're like, oh, that person is a bit of a jerk or that person is a difficult person, and it helps us understand things through the lens of their biology. It doesn't excuse the behavior, because we need to learn how to work with that, but it completely changes the assumptions and the interpretations of people behavior and I think it also then changes the way that we act. And that's coming back to that generosity of interpretation. When my daughter comes home and she's in a reactivated place. I'm not going to take that personally. That's not about me. That's her system feeling like she's not safe and doing what it's supposed to be doing. It's a very adaptive system. And so in the workplace, what difference does it make when we see things through that lens? Who is getting reactivated and being overbearing and being disrespectful? If we see that through the lens of someone whose system is, perceiving danger and feeling the need to protect itself.

Speaker 2: 39:25

I'm going to take us on a bit of a tangent, but I think there's some value in going on this tangent. First of all, what you reminded me of is Daniel Collins. He's a money Nobel Prize, actually, but he talks about you want to think about the deliberate system of the brain as a supporting character who believes herself to be the hero. So when you understand that the deliberate system is only supporting character hero, so when you understand that the deliberate system is only supporting character, that has major implications for how we think about how people respond and react. That's point number one. Point number two, which is a tangent, there's some research that I quite like that talks about why particularly the US is so polarized in the way it sees policy implementation and stuff like that. So it talks about how there are two general belief systems that people have. One is of the strict father approach. So the strict father believes that people who are disciplined, work hard and apply themselves will be successful in life. And then there's the nurturing belief system, where people believe that with the right support and the right nurturing, people can be successful in life.

Speaker 2: 40:48

I think it's fair to say that what we're talking about today is not in the strict father frame. We're in the support system kind of frame. I think that's fair to say that what we're talking about here is like that frame. I am curious this is where I always get stuck For the person who sees the world from the strict father lens, how do we frame this conversation for that person? And, granted, you've never thought about this conversation, so you may not have the answer right now, but I think it's important that, if that's true, if it is true that North Americans see the world in these two frames and that's why you end up with these left-right kind of things I think it's important for us to frame the conversation in a way that people who have the strict father frame understand why it's important to take into account whether or not the kid slept that night before.

Speaker 2: 41:51

Take into account whether the guy you're doing business with, his wife, has cancer right now and is not on his A-game or he's shorter than he normally should be. So that's a tangent that came up for me when I heard you talking. But you seem to disagree that it's not in a support frame. But that's going to be an interesting conversation, yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:17

I think it's more on the spectrum of support, but I think what we need is an integrated approach. I I don't think it's an either, or I don't think it can just be oh, they didn't sleep well last night, okay, don't hand that project in, you know. Or oh, you're going through a hard time and like, okay, you know what. If you're going through a hard time and like, okay, you know what, if someone's going through a hard time, they don't have the capacity to show up to work, and of course we need to have supportive things in place. We need to know how to have those conversations in the first place. We need to know what resources are available to support that person.

Speaker 1: 42:50

We need to have an integrated approach. There has to be accountability. There has to be. You know, the work still needs to get done, but what difference does it make when there's a better dynamic balance between those two? So it's not let's go straight in the middle and have half support and half accountability, but there's a dynamic balance, right? So how do we navigate that spectrum in a way that works for each individual?

Speaker 2: 43:20

You go ahead, you go ahead, sorry I shouldn't have interrupted you, sorry, yeah. You go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, I'm so, I'm so glad you said that, because I think that's. That's exactly how I see that framework of strict father and the supportive narrative. I think the truth is in the middle but unfortunately, the way we see, the way we see the world, it tends to be either side. The polarity is easier for us to act from. It's hard to act from the middle, I think. But anyway.

Speaker 1: 43:52

Yeah, I think it's about building awareness. I think it really starts with awareness, because of course we're gonna adhere to the strict father paradigm if that's what's worked for us, if that's what we feel will work for our kids or our employees. But as we bring more awareness to what's going on below the surface and how that's shaping behaviors and what the results of those behaviors are, then it opens up some room for curiosity, for creativity, for playing around with hey, what difference does it make when we bring in a flavor of support here and trying that out? Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2: 44:35

And yeah, that's yeah, I agree, I'm going to. We could talk about this all day, so I'm going to move on to the next thing, so we could start to close off. And by now, I hope the listeners are not bored, bored of you and I geeking out about conversations as we normally do.

Speaker 2: 44:51

But all right. So let's talk about I don't like the term, I love the concept, I love the theory, but I think we need a different word for it. But let's talk about polyvagal theory and why we should care about that in conflict resolution.

Speaker 1: 45:09

I just think that's an awful word, polyvagal I think it's like any word, you know any word that we're not used to having. It brings meaning to a concept.

Speaker 2: 45:26

So you know we can make a different word for it but right now that's what the theory is called.

Speaker 1: 45:30

For me that's what it's called, and it's called that for a very good reason, and understanding that reason makes the word a little bit more digestible, probably. But I think that the crux of it is that. So the polyvagal theory was developed by Stephen Porges, who's this fascinating, brilliant mind, and if you've never listened to any of his talks, he's got lots of podcast interviews. He's really fascinating to listen to, especially for those of you, those of us, who like to geek out over the brain and the biology and the neurophysiology of everything. It's really interesting. But basically, for me, practically the way I understand this theory, is that it kind of gives us a roadmap for navigating this communication superhighway. And the communication superhighway that I was talking about before is our nervous system, especially our autonomic nervous system, and that's the superhighway that communicates between our brain and our body. And basically polyvagal gives us a map for navigating that in a way that really brings to light these three states that we're always. In any given moment we can be in a hybrid state, but basically being able to understand these three states. So polyvagal is because we're talking about the vagus nerve, which is this massive nerve. Vagus is Latin for wanderer, and if you see a picture of this nerve you can Google it online. It's like a superconductor that basically reaches every part of your body. The ventral vagal so the front part of the vagus nerve innervates our facial muscles. It goes to our eyes, our vocal cords, our hearing. So when we're in a state of safety, when we're in ventral, when the ventral part of the vagus nerve is functioning properly, we can connect with other people. That's our social engagement system. You know, a lot of people talk about body language and the importance of body language and conversations and active listening and all that Look people in the eyes and all this stuff. A lot of it has been debunked but basically our social engagement system has evolved over hundreds of million years. It's only present in animals, as far as the theory proposes anyways, and that helps us to hear each other, to look at each other, to engage socially.

Speaker 1: 48:00

But when we're perceiving cues that don't feel safe to us, and if you're walking down the street and someone walks by and you get this visceral feeling of feeling unsafe, I don't know if you've ever had that before. As a woman, I have experienced that a lot, especially working in some very dangerous parts of the world in my past life. When our nervous system perceives a queue of danger and it's happening below the level of subconscious, our autonomic system shifts states. It's called an autonomic state. So the ventral vagal is our homeostasis. That's where we are connected and we can communicate and we can have empathy and we can be curious. When we shift out of that place into a state of feeling unsafe, the first place we go and this is where polyvagal theory has this hierarchy and it explains how we move through these three states.

Speaker 1: 48:59

So connection, fight flight and then disconnection. We'll move into this fight flight mode and what? That is basically just our system saying, hey, I need more energy to come online right now, I need to mobilize to do something about this, and that's a great thing. Right now, I'm in a bit of a hybrid state. We probably both are. I'm able to have the energy to talk, to be enthusiastic, I'm also connecting with you, I feel safe, I feel comfortable. My vocal cords have probably listened to me at the beginning of the interview when I was feeling a little nervous and now probably the prosody of my voice has changed a little bit.

Speaker 1: 49:38

Um, but when we get stuck in that state or when we move too far into that state of fight flight.

Speaker 1: 49:45

That can be problematic for us and if that doesn't work we then move into disconnect and some people, when they're really feeling stressed or burnt out, they'll just kind of move between these two states of like sympathetic activation, fight flight or shut down.

Speaker 1: 50:04

Disconnect that's when you're that lump on the couch when that load of laundry feels impossible. I was stuck in that state during COVID lockdowns where I just felt like completely exhausted and I couldn't deal with the world and so we moved between these three states and we do that all day long to some extent or another. And having a resilient system we talk a lot about resilience in the workplace. Having a resilient systems means having the flexibility to move in and out of these states. It's when we get stuck in them that it becomes a problem and when we're stuck in that place of activation or shutdown, dialogue becomes impossible. So I actually have come to see my job as a mediator and conflict coach as literally being aware of what state I'm in and creating the conditions for people to feel safe and regulated so that they can problem solve together.

Speaker 2: 51:09

Yeah, that's probably the best you've ever explained that, so thank you for that. So let's talk about what are some practical steps people can take when they recognize and responding to the cues from the autonomic system and the vagus nerve and stuff. What are some practical steps we can take when we notice that we are dysregulated?

Speaker 1: 51:39

yeah. So, first of all, what helps me and what I've noticed is helping my clients a lot is just becoming aware that we have this nervous system and that we have these three states that we shift in and out of all the time and then learning to map our own nervous system. So you know, I have this tool I use that just helps you when I'm in my comfortable zone or my window of tolerance there's a great model called the window of tolerance when I'm in that zone, I am, the world is. This is material developed by Deb Dana, who's taken polyvagal theory and really made it applicable, especially in the therapeutic world. Made it applicable especially in the therapeutic world and she has some great tools. And so, knowing we have these systems, knowing other people and it's the common denominator you know we're talking about those five generations in the workforce and all these diversity, inclusion initiatives. The one common denominator amongst all human beings is that we all have a nervous system and it works pretty much the same way, like it's pretty straightforward, it's safety or danger, connect or protect, like that's really what's happening underneath the surface. So knowing that, understanding that is the first step. But then there's these great threes. I love models that talk about threes and I think it's Deb Dana who talks about this and she says notice it, name it, normalize it. So notice when you're shifting out of your happy place. That's the first step. Once you cross that line, it is now no longer under your conscious control.

Speaker 1: 53:34

Once you're in a reactivated state, it is very hard to be reasonable. I mean, we both have small kids and I can be very regulated for a long time. I have a lot of generosity of interpretation. But when something keeps happening over and over and over again and I'm feeling unsafe because you know, my son and my daughter are wrestling they're six and eight years old and I'm worried, like she starts to scream and I think she's broken her arm, and you know, like my system is going up and up and up and up into that sympathetic activation. If I can notice that happening, I can do things to help myself, come back down and deal with it in a rational way. But if I let it escalate, if my capacity for holding that space of discomfort gets too much for my system and I switch up into my sympathetic reactivation, then I'm like I turn into the Incredible Hulk and I do this for a living, like I have been studying this for two decades and I literally for a living. I'm meant to stay in a regulated place as a mediator. That is my job, but I will turn into the Incredible Hulk when I get reactivated.

Speaker 1: 54:50

So it's about knowing who do you turn into when you get reactivated. And then also, who do you turn into when that overloads you to the point to exhaustion and you just shut down and disconnect and so notice it, being able to notice when you're coming out of your zone of tolerance, name it. There's a lot of great research being done out there on naming emotions and I think it's like you have a 30% decrease in reactivation when you can simply name an emotion. Lisa Feldman Barrett does a lot of work around that. She calls it emotional granularity, getting really granular. So naming the emotion, naming what state you're in. So in my household, my husband, I think, never wants to hear the word regulated or dysregulated again, but I find it to be an exceedingly important word because I can say you know what I'm noticing myself moving into a dysregulated state right now.

Speaker 1: 55:52

So I'm going to go for a walk and I'll be back you know, or I'm noticing my daughter or my son getting dysregulated and that's going to change the way that I'm approaching them. Notice it, name it and then, especially in the workplace, normalize it. I think there's a lot of shame and blame. I see it all the time, whether people mean to or not. This is a difficult person. He's always so reactivated, he's always so rude, he's always so disrespectful and that's not okay. There has to be systems to deal with that. But it's a lot of shame and blame. Or even for ourselves. I get really embarrassed Like, oh my God, if my neighbor, if the windows open and my neighbor hears me in incredible Hulk mode, like that is really embarrassing for me. I'm supposed to be a peace worker, you know, and so. But normalizing and saying that makes sense Before we do anything else about it, that makes sense that that person is reacting that way because their system is no longer able to hold themselves within their zone of tolerance.

Speaker 2: 57:01

So so my clients, when I work with them, the hardest piece is when I say, hey, where we're gonna start, we're gonna start by just noticing that. They're like what do you mean? Just noticing? I want more than that. I'm like, well, that's step number one. If you can notice when you're doing X, that is step number one. So we're going to spend this week just noticing and my clients in particular struggle with that exercise and I don't know. I think I know why, but I know why, but I think I know why, but I know why.

Speaker 2: 57:28

But it's just that first step of noticing it is the struggle and I use the mantra notice it to tame it is what I say.

Speaker 1: 57:44

So you name it. Yeah, notice it to tame it, or name it to tame it. Name it to tame, it is what I say sorry.

Speaker 2: 57:48

So when I say first start by noticing it, name it, and now we can work on taming it.

Speaker 2: 57:57

That's how I usually talk about it, but I also like this normalizing concept because it's for most of the things that I'm coaching people through. A lot of it is normal. A lot of people are going through it, who are in their situation, people who are in that situation that they're in are going through a similar thing. So I quite like this. These ends around noticing it, naming it, normalizing it and then the T tame it. But I appreciate a lot of what you wrote there, alright.

Speaker 1: 58:25

So I would switch the T to a W. I would say don't try to tame it, try to work with it. What do you do now? What is needed in this situation?

Speaker 2: 58:37

in this moment. This is why you and I have such philosophical conversations To help. So I think tame it is the work it thing. So like, for example, I often say to people you cannot manage complexity, you can only tame complexity. So people try to control complexity, they try to manage complexity, you can only tame it. So to me, the name it, the team, it comes from that similar realm. So it's not like yeah, so anyway, viewers, listeners this is the kind of conversations that Jessica and I have all the time.

Speaker 2: 59:13

It's the meaning making around words, right it is but it's important to us people didn't care about it.

Speaker 1: 59:20

I think like the meaning.

Speaker 2: 59:23

I appreciate you, so so it's either we need to have a conversation about whether it's to team it or whether it's work with it, but anyway, and it could be both In working with it. That is how you team it, maybe that's it. Yeah, she does not disagree, she does not agree, but whatever.

Speaker 2: 59:40

There, you go All right. So, as we think about how we close off today's conversation, you are very. One of the things that you and I often talk about is this language of problem solving and focusing more on how do we build stronger relationships, how does that perspective fit into this conflict lens and how we handle conflict perspective fit into this conflict and lens and how we handle conflict.

Speaker 1: 1:00:22

Yeah, I think it's the Gottman Research Institute down in the States. They do a lot of work around relational conflict and they say and it's a mantra I use understanding must precede resolution. So a and it's a mantra I use understanding must proceed, resolution so like. We've been talking about understanding the biology behind all of this. We quickly I've noticed that people and organizations quickly want to resolve the conflict, they want to solve the problem and and of course, they want to solve the problem that that makes sense. But understanding has to precede resolution, and understanding comes from understanding ourselves. What state we're in, what is the effect of that, understanding the other person, what state they're in and what is the effect of that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:05

There's been times when I spent an hour and a half just on the acknowledging and validating and understanding piece and then maybe 15 minutes on problem solving. But you know what? It's one of those like go slow to go fast concepts, because the second people get into a regulated place and they feel safe. Curiosity, creativity, everything comes online and then you can solve the problem very quickly because you're able to see a bigger picture, you're able to see a bigger story and you have more entry points into figuring out different solutions. But if you try to solve the problem when people are not feeling able to connect, able to have constructive conversation, it's like you're just going to be bashing heads because it's going to be well. This is the way I see it, this is the way I see it, and those are the only two options. We need to open the story up, we need to expand the options, and you can only do that when creativity and curiosity come online.

Speaker 2: 1:02:10

We've gone through this already, but let's talk a little bit about the skills that people need to develop to navigate conflict and and create safety in the workplace. How do you, what are the skills that you think people need to develop?

Speaker 1: 1:02:27

there so many skills? There's there's so many skills, skills and there's not a lack of. I mean, you can Google like conflict resolution skills, and you'll get all the things that we hear all the time perspective taking, empathy, active listening and all of those things and I'm not trying to put those down. Those are exceedingly important to navigate that conversation. When we're ready to problem solve or solution build, that's a whole other conversation that we can have.

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

I fundamentally believe the most important thing is having an awareness of your own physiology and how that is, and I feel like I'm repeating myself, because I think it's so important Understanding what state you're in, noticing when you're moving out of that state, naming it and normalizing it and being able to do that with other people. And I would love to see what that looks like in the workplace, and I'm sure there are organizations out there that are doing this right. So if anyone listening happens to be one of those organizations, please get in touch with me and let me know what you're doing, because that would be amazing to hear about. But I think it comes down to a basic awareness of what is the foundation of all of our thinking, our feeling and our doing and our actions and and that generosity of interpretation of another person's actions as well, I think.

Speaker 2: 1:03:52

One caveat I want to just say here is that, no matter how much skill you have, once you're dysregulated or deregulated, the skills go out the window. Like you have to be regulated in order to even draw on the skills. So the skills are one piece, but to me, the fundamental lesson we have to learn is how to regulate ourselves. And then going to have the conversation and then being aware enough to say, hey, I am dysregulated, I'm not having this conversation now. I'm going to have a conversation when I've figured out how to regulate myself while I'm regulated and I think in the at least I experience, when people come to me like let's teach these people skills and like if we teach them skills, they would solve the issue. And I'm like, no, we are human beings with emotions and stuff, and when that person is not regulated, that person is not regulated. No, the best training in the world would not get you to draw on those skills. And I think it's important to see that out loud.

Speaker 1: 1:05:04

Absolutely. I think even introducing the word regulated and dysregulated into the workplace do we have a concept and a framework to work around. It gives a lens through which we make meaning. Do you remember the? Well, I'm sure you remember the Matrix, and for anyone listening and who isn't familiar with the Matrix movie, you should go watch it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:26

I'm biased, I love it, but I feel like ever since I've learned about the autonomic nervous system and Holly Bagel theory and these three states that we move in and out, of, it's like the matrix, like seeing everything in ones and zeros. For me it's like I now see things in ones, zeros and twos and it's like are you zero, are you regulated, are you a one, are you up and sympathetic or are you two, down in dorsal, shutdown and disappear and disconnect? And I see everybody through that lens now, and it makes so much sense through that lens how people are showing up and then it's about like so what can we do to help ourselves and to help the people around us and to create systems that support an environment that helps people be in that zero more often? You know, or expand the capacity to be in that zero? What is needed to help support that and that's that support of you know end of the spectrum and that integrated approach this has been a fantastic conversation and I hope that listeners get as much out of it as I have.

Speaker 2: 1:06:36

Is there something you'd like to share with listeners before we jump off of today's call?

Speaker 1: 1:06:49

So there's the quote I use with my kids all the time. That I think is from a movie. Someone must know this. I don't actually, I tried googling it and I couldn't figure out exactly where I heard it from, but it's hurt people, hurt people, and I think that is such a powerful reminder. I say it to my kids all the time, especially my son's in grade three, and he's struggling with someone in the schoolyard that is being quite mean to him and I just keep repeating hurt people, hurt people. And when we can understand that, I really believe that opens up that generosity of interpretation and it helps us understand a little bit more, brings that empathy, a little bit more, that compassion online so that we can engage, so that we don't get dysregulated ourselves by the actions of another person.

Speaker 2: 1:07:44

I think that's the most important, Very powerful stuff, Jessica. Thank you Before we go, I end this conversation by asking people my favorite coaching question, which is where are you seeking comfort when you should be seeking discomfort?

Speaker 1: 1:08:07

You know I've heard you ask this question before and I've not actually thought about it from my own perspective. Where am I seeking comfort? The universe to unfold, and that is my comfort zone. I allow things to come to me. I allow things to play out however they happen to play out, and I think my discomfort zone is getting out there and getting more proactive about the things I feel really passionate about. That would make a big difference All the things we're talking about today and so I think where I need to seek discomfort is getting myself out there more and being a little bit proactive about helping organizations get proactive about addressing conflict differently, because I think it will make I think music to bias awareness awareness precedes action.

Speaker 1: 1:09:18

So you know I'm in the awareness phase.

Speaker 2: 1:09:20

We're not going to normalize it, I'm naming it anyway, jessica, thank you for being on this podcast conversations with Keith Leving and, for those of you who joined us today, join us next time, where I'll be interviewing yet another person who will help us answer those two questions of how to become better people in business and how to become better business people. Hope you enjoyed today's show and have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you for listening to Conversations with Keith Tideming. Over the years, I've learned that few things will impact or improve your life more than improving your strategies and having better conversations with the people you wish to serve. If you like today's guest and the idea is shared, please like, follow and provide a review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also visit my website to sign up for my newsletter and learn about the release of my upcoming book. I look forward to the next episode where we'll be in conversation with someone who will help you become a better business person and a better person in business. See you next time.