Henna Pryor: Embracing Awkwardness for Authentic Professional Growth

Ever felt that awkwardness could actually be a strength rather than a weakness? In this episode, Henna Pryor, a regular Expert Columnist for Inc. Magazine, 10x award-winning author of Good Awkward, and an in-demand global keynote speaker, explores the idea that awkwardness can be a strength in both personal and professional settings.

Pryor challenges the conventional "fake it till you make it" mindset and promotes embracing authenticity, even with its flaws. The discussion covers how our diminishing social skills affect business conversations and the importance of forming genuine connections, particularly in the virtual workplace.

Key Takeaways:

1. Be Genuine: Embrace your awkwardness to build stronger, more authentic relationships.
2. Overcoming Hurdles: People from underrepresented communities can be their true selves at work by accepting flaws and using practical techniques.
3. Boosting Social Skills: Having small, focused social interactions can help improve your social skills and make you feel more comfortable being yourself.

Henna's links: 

• Website: https://pryoritygroup.com/ 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hennapryor/ 
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hennapryor/ 
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hennapryorcoach/ 
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@hennapryor 

Hi, I'm your podcast host Keita Demming: Author, Advisor, Thought Partner & Coach.

I'm an award-winning educator and coach with a PhD in Adult Education and Workplace Learning who works to transform companies into places that are idea-driven and people-centered.

At The Covenant Group, I design training programs and coach entrepreneurs and business leaders to meet their strategic goals and build their businesses.

In my book, Strategy to Action: Run Your Business Without It Running You, I introduce an effective and straightforward tool to elevate your skills as a business professional and navigate the corporate world. The book offers practical insights on transforming strategies into tangible results.

Follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and subscribe to my Newsletter.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

There's a moment in time that we are living in right now that is different than any other moment in time that we've lived in as a society. We are suffering from a weakening of our social musculature. I could theoretically if I needed to have no human interaction today, and what that has created is less and less opportunity for us to have small stakes social moments that act as repetition. Our society is optimizing away from social repetition. So what I'm finding, and what the research is finding, is that in business, when we're starting to need to have high stakes conversations or high stakes moments of correction, people's social musculature is so unaccustomed to having a conversation where what might happen or what they expect isn't certain, that they don't have them at all.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of Conversations with Keita Deming. In today's episode, we're going to be talking to Hena Pryor. She's the author of this book called the Good Awkward. She and I have an amazing conversation about what it means to be awkward and benefits of really leaning into awkwardness, and the distinction between being awkward and vulnerable, and how do you apply it in your life. There are lots of surprising lessons in here that I think, for anybody who wants to do something new, that awkward piece of it is something you cannot avoid, and I think this episode is going to be right up your alley. Hope you enjoy today's episode of Conversations with Keita Deming. I'm going to come out with a question that I got directly from your book and I want to know what are three things in your line of work that you think are absolutely bollocks.

Speaker 1: 1:53

Oh, there's lots of things, oh God, there's lots of things that I think are absolutely bollocks. One thing that I think is absolutely bollocks is this concept of faking it till we make it. I think there are too many people, especially in the world that we live in, that already feel like a fraud and a fake, especially in this virtual world where we filter everything, we have avatars that look nothing like us. I'm tired of faking it. If you've already worked hard and you're already accomplished, what are you faking?

Speaker 2: 2:24

That's number one. So what should we do instead?

Speaker 1: 2:29

Oh yeah, I'm on this mission to embrace a fresh form of authenticity. Ironically, authentic just got announced as the Merriam-Webster word of the year. I don't know if you heard and. I think people hear that and they're like, yes, great, I want to be authentic, but then they don't know how to actually get there. So what we need to do instead is not fake it. I'm interested in letting people live their full selves bumps, awkward fumbles, stumbles and all that's what I'd like to see more of.

Speaker 2: 2:58

Awesome, so that's number one. What's something else that you think is bollocks, other than fake it till you make it?

Speaker 1: 3:05

Yeah, what's something else that something else you think is bollocks, other than fake it till you make it. Yeah, if I can, you know, go a little rogue here. What else I think is bollocks is, just, I have to speak for women. I'm a woman of color. I think trying to put ourselves squarely into a puzzle piece that wasn't made for us is also bollocks.

Speaker 1: 3:21

You know, I think I spent 14 years in staffing and one of the phrases that I would like to do away with entirely is culture fit. I'm not interested in the word culture fit, because all culture fit means is I'm speaking to you and I think I vibe with you, or that you belong as part of this team, but it doesn't actually have a definition. If you ask most leaders, most corporate professionals, what does it mean to be someone who fits the culture of this company? Can you provide 10 metrics that a person needs to meet to be a culture fit? They're like you know, they just, they say very broad things, or we just know, we can just tell, and what that does is it essentially screens away people who aren't like that, people who may have a diverse perspective or opinion. So culture fit bollocks unless it's been clearly defined and very clearly articulated via metrics that are measurable and sustainable.

Speaker 2: 4:18

All right, so we got number two. What's one more?

Speaker 1: 4:21

Okay, number three I have to like I'm trying to choose amongst my babies my favorites here. I think the other thing I would call bollocks on is this idea that in the virtual world we can't have deep connection. I think we've had this sort of swing the other way of. You know we need to go back to the office because we need to go back to the office, because and I fully understand and do believe in the benefits of in-person connection there's something that's not able to be replicated. But I have made some of my best friends forget about work colleagues, best friends this year through a screen and we've had some of the deepest, most intimate conversations. The difference is you need to create a container for those to occur. You can't expect them to happen just in the quick meeting when we're all rushing from business chat to business chat. But the idea that we can't collaborate and connect at a deeper level, virtually, that's bollocks. I don't believe in that.

Speaker 2: 5:17

So, folks who are listening in, the reason I started with that question is because I just read this wonderful book that I'm going to put straight up here, called the Good Orchard, and in it our esteemed author says there's a word that she's always wanted to say, and that word is bollocks. And she said it at least three times on a podcast and I thought that was a great way for us to start.

Speaker 1: 5:39

Thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 5:41

You're welcome. If I can be of service, I will be of service. So for folks who have no idea who you are and what you do, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Other than you've always wanted to say the word bollocks.

Speaker 1: 5:53

I know now that dream has been fulfilled.

Speaker 2: 5:55

So what's next?

Speaker 1: 5:57

My name is Hena Pryor. I am a workplace performance expert and I do that through keynote speaking, executive coaching, facilitation and, of course, as an author through my book Good Awkward, and my goal is, you know, lately I've been actually referring to myself as a bit of a success detective. I'm not interested in telling ambitious people what they need to do in order to be braver at work or to take more risks. I'm interested in what stands in the way of that.

Speaker 1: 6:25

What are the things that stand in the way of us taking more chances of having more persuasion and influence type conversations of activating courage and confidence. I love unpacking and kind of disclosing what are the things that people don't see that are standing in the way?

Speaker 2: 6:42

Yeah, so the premise of this conversation series slash what we call podcast is how do we become better people in business and how do we become better business people? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your general premise is that we need to be more awkward in terms of. Becoming better people in business is kind of your thing, but what do you want to just off the bat? How might you answer the question how do we become better people in business?

Speaker 1: 7:12

Yes. So there's a moment in time that we are living in right now that is different than any other moment in time that we've lived in as a society. We are suffering from a weakening of our social musculature. So let me explain what I mean by that. We theoretically I theoretically could go through this entire day and not speak to another soul if I really wanted to. I could order my food on DoorDash or ToastTab and have somebody just drop it off at my door without ever speaking to them. I could text my friends or family instead of having a conversation of any kind. I could, theoretically, if I needed, to have no human interaction.

Speaker 1: 7:53

Today, and what that has created and this is pervasive in all of our lives people are swiping to date. They're doing all these things in ways that they didn't have to before. What that is creating is less and less opportunity for us to have small stakes, social moments that act as repetitions. You know the same way at the gym, we lift a weight, you know, lightweight a couple of times. Those are repetitions.

Speaker 1: 8:18

Our society is optimizing away from social repetitions. So what I'm finding, and what the research is finding, is that in business, when we're starting to need to have high stakes conversations or high stakes moments of correction. People's social musculature is so unaccustomed to having a conversation where what might happen or what they expect isn't certain, that they don't have them at all. We're willing to avoid conversations altogether for fear of what may occur, because we don't have that social proximity that we prioritize anymore. And again, proximity doesn't have to mean physical, it just means creating opportunities to talk to other people. So when I think about how do we become better business people in this climate, what I'm passionate about today is how do we optimize back for social interaction in an environment that doesn't want us to do so?

Speaker 2: 9:11

Yeah, many, many years ago I wrote I wrote an article that's quite popular on LinkedIn that the future of innovation is innovation. The future yeah, the future is is innovation that is social, and what I meant by that is innovations that focus on the social aspects of who we are as human beings, and I think the more we have AI, the more I'm doubling down on that. It's like the things that make us human, the things that make us interact. That's where the future of innovation is going to be. I agree, and I loved in your book the reminder that we use it or lose it. So, in social skills, if you don't have those low stakes social interactions, you're going to lose that skill, and then far less for when you have to have those high stakes conversation, you don't have the practice of lifting the lightweights. You're not going to be able to lift the heavyweights right. So and I really appreciated that that insight in your yeah, I love I love the framing of it is.

Speaker 1: 10:11

You know we're missing the opportunity to experience the friction and the messiness of relating to other people right we're losing that. You know I I use the example often of my daughter, who's 13. Now, adults are just as guilty of this, but we went to go pick up a friend the other day. We pulled into the driveway and I said, hey, let's get out of the car and ring the doorbell. And she looked at me like I just suggested we pick up feces with our bare hands, right?

Speaker 1: 10:39

This was the look Mom mom and I'm thinking what, what sweetie. And she's, and she's like no, no. We text from the car and we say here, we're here. Like we can't just ring the doorbell and say hello to her father, like no. But this is what's happened now, and adults do this too, and so this is.

Speaker 2: 10:59

This is the danger zone we've entered, you know yeah, so so that that's probably a good segue into another conversation I wanted to have with you, which. What is awkward confidence? That is a term that I think. First of all, I love the juxtaposition of those two things awkward confidence. So talk to us a little bit about what you mean by that and why you felt the need to forefront that in your work, and the message that you're sharing with the world.

Speaker 1: 11:29

So I'll answer your last question first, why the need to forefront that? Because my lived experience is one of trying to chase what I saw as cool as a cucumber confidence and realizing it was never coming. Never, it is not something I will ever know. I don't think I will ever be cool and smooth. You know, when I get laughing I snort. When I'm walking I trip, like. You know, when I am excited about something, I stumble over my words and I say it wrong and I say the wrong thing.

Speaker 1: 12:05

And for most of my life I would look at these. You know, in my experience I'm a woman, so I would look at these women who I would see as confident and they were just so polished and so elegant and never seemed rattled, never seemed to say the wrong thing and I was like, ah, that's what I'm trying to be. And then really it took until probably following college that I started to realize trying to be that is exhausting. And actually when I let go of that facade, or that attempt at a facade, and leaned into the person I really was and owned it like fully owned it, the stumbles, the fumbles, the oh my gosh, I can't believe. I just said that. What a cringe. All of a sudden, people are like Hannah, you're so confident, you just own it. You're so confident. I'm like what? What are you talking about? And it made me very curious. What does that mean? How does that work?

Speaker 2: 12:58

So give us some tips on how we all embrace our inner Jennifer Lawrence, you opened a book with this and I see Jennifer Lawrence in all her interviews and she's so wonderfully awkward in everything she does. So give us some insight. So here's why I'm double-clicking on that question. I'm obviously a person of color, et cetera. I 100% struggle with the authenticity conversation because all my life I have known the thing that has gotten me opportunities is my capacity to code, switch, read a room and play, be a particular culture. That's not my whole, my, my origin, culture of origin, yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:47

And then I went through lots and lots of therapy because I realized I was very, very confident. I'm from trinidad and tobago, grew up there. I'm very, very confident in that environment where I do business and I I'm willing to take risks and stuff, but, but in North America I'm very, very cautious. So why is that? And I had to go through do all this work to figure that out. So when you talk about, first of all I appreciate everything you put forward, but then it confronts me really in a really real way when I'm like how do I be authentic, how do I be awkward in a world where, hey, the standards for you are much higher, you're going to be judged much harder. How do I step into that? Yeah, this is an important question.

Speaker 1: 14:40

No, I'm actually glad you front loaded this question because this is something that I addressed, but sort of later in the book. But I think it's an important thing to front load because you are right, I had the same lived experience and the truth is, most stories for underrepresented groups you know, people of color, children of immigrants I think there's very few of us that wouldn't relate to this story of assimilation is what got us ahead. Right, we felt like, or at least in our minds. Assimilation is what made it easier to be chosen in the room. We didn't want to stand out, we wanted to do what we saw as will get us ahead, and the people we looked to systemically didn't look like us, so we tried to emulate whatever it was that they did. This is what success looks like. I'm going to try to be like that or be more of that. That is most of our lived experience and the truth is, as much as this pains me to admit.

Speaker 1: 15:36

Women and people of color are disproportionately scrutinized and when we think about confidence, it is often held to this standard of flawlessness. A mistake made by a person of color, a person from a different culture or a woman is no hyperbole. It is disproportionately scrutinized at a different level because the systems are still decades of being created by white, heterosexual, cisgendered men and again, that's not their fault. This is just the system that we grew up in. It's only in the last couple of decades that even women are in leadership right. So the truth of the matter is this is a real system that we're against.

Speaker 1: 16:18

I think the opportunity to reframe the thinking here is often when people hear the word awkward, they make it synonymous with ineptitude. Right, if I show up as awkward at work, I'm going to be perceived as inept or having lack of skill or incompetent. And what I want to extract or untangle is I'm not referring to coming into work unprepared or being perceived as inept. I am talking about people who are generally prepared, they work hard, generally smart, generally seen as competent, when they have a very natural human moment of awkwardness, when something is misspelled in their presentation or they say someone's name wrong or they spill coffee on their lap in the middle of something important.

Speaker 1: 17:10

What the data says is that that stuff, the awkward moments that are just inherently part of life, actually don't make you seem inept. It actually ironically, it's called the pratfall effect. It makes you seem more warm, more likable, because you're not putting on this air of perfection. It knocks you off that pedestal of trying so hard to be flawless. Those are the moments I want to give ourselves a little bit more grace for. But we're not coming out inept. Those are two very different things.

Speaker 2: 17:39

But here's my question for you. I hear you. I agree with you 100%. I have a phd. I've gone to school and it's all about the a grades and all of that stuff, so I've been conditioned get the perfect grade. How do I then go on stage or in a boardroom and just embrace my like, for example? I think farting while laughing is different from like snorting while laughing like.

Speaker 1: 18:01

Those are two different but sorry, let's first.

Speaker 2: 18:07

There's an appropriate awkward which you talk about in the book. Let's not talk about that just yet. But I want to know how do I step into be like, hey, yes, it is safe to be awkward, when my whole life I've been like trying my best to be excellent and perfect. So, for example, in the black community there's a massive language around black excellence, which I find problematic, but that that is the message we get.

Speaker 2: 18:31

So how do I take that first step and be like? In this case, it's okay to like, make a mistake. That's what I'm. That's my question for you.

Speaker 1: 18:39

Sure, I hear you and everything you say yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I agree with you and I, I like you, have been conditioned lifelong. South asian parents, you know exactly a's a minuses, no good right, no good.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Only what are you doing with your life? Right, right, right. It's slacking, right no?

Speaker 1: 18:57

only a, only a's, and and this, this conditioning, has been very difficult on a personal level for me to overcome. So I know this one, kita Kito, like you and me both right. What I would say is the process of untangling. This is twofold. First, it's you know, sort of the first half of the book is really speaking to building awareness around what are the stories we tell ourselves. So I'll be very personal about this.

Speaker 1: 19:21

In my household there's an expression in Urdu or in Hindi that is used. That's what this translates to is literally, what are people going to think? Right, I do this behavior and literally, what are people going to think? This was conditioned into me and so I've had to do some deep inner work about this is a message that I have been taught what are people going to think. But does this message still serve where I'm trying to go right? If I'm always consumed with what are people going to think, I am never going to take the necessary risks to even try this micro first step, let alone the big leap. So it's really peeling back the layers and there's a lot of you know, kind of coaching questions that we can go through in order to do that. But what is your relationship with approval is number one.

Speaker 1: 20:11

Also, when an awkward moment inevitably does occur, let's just say again, let's make it real in the workplace. Let's say you get up to do a presentation, you're in a small group of extremely high profile leaders and you completely mispronounce someone's name. Right, you should know better, but you completely mispronounce someone's name. Now, in that moment, yes, it sucks, yes, your face will be flush, yes, you will be embarrassed, you might have some self-berating going on. I can't believe I did that. But in that moment you're going to have a human experience. That's fine.

Speaker 1: 20:40

But following that moment, when you're back at your desk, when you're back in your car, whatever it may be, there's a choice moment that happens. There we can either tell ourselves a contamination story, which is I can't believe you did that. You're an idiot, you should never speak up again. You should learn how to say names, you big idiot, right? There's so many things we can do.

Speaker 1: 21:00

Or we can choose very intentionally and by design, to find the redemption story, which is you know, it doesn't feel good to say someone's name wrong. We can all agree on that. However, you stood up in the meeting and you spoke and you presented on this thing. That maybe was an edge for you and you learned a lesson to be more careful to double check the names next time. But you have to slow our brains down long enough to actually have that conversation post an awkward moment. Most of us, we just feel it in our body, we hate the feeling and then we just move on to the next thing, which doesn't allow us an opportunity to reframe it in the future, which doesn't allow us an opportunity to reframe it in the future.

Speaker 2: 21:39

Yeah, I don't want to lose. You mentioned. You just kind of went over something quickly and it's one of the questions I have for later. Can you just double-click on what do you mean by a redemption story and a contamination story? Because I think that framing, I think, is really powerful and helpful in your book. So let's double-click on that a bit.

Speaker 1: 21:58

So, to give credit where it's due, it comes from Dan McAdams out of Northwestern University. What he discovered in his research is when we are thinking about our trajectory as a growing professional, a growing person, someone who's hoping to grow in their lives assuming you're someone who growth matters to you and you know that you need to take a few risks to get there the way our thinking works is our brain tends to hold on to things that are standout events. Our brains you know, I had a cup of coffee this morning, frankly, I've already forgotten it right Our brains tend to hold on to moments that in our minds, are standout events, awkward moments, or embarrassing moments, or cringe moments, because they are uncomfortable for some of us, cause deep discomfort. They tend to be a standout moment, something that our bodies kind of hold on to, our brains hold on to. So what can be very useful is, once one of those moments occurs, once we have kind of gotten through the moment moments occurs once we have gotten through the moment is to actually slow down for a moment, following it and do an unpacking about what is the story we are now telling ourselves about that experience. So a contamination story about that experience would be again.

Speaker 1: 23:12

In the case of the mispronounced name, I shouldn't speak up. I can't believe I did that. That was so embarrassing that I'll never volunteer to take this presentation on again. Essentially, that experience has now contaminated any future experiences that might create the same feeling, that might risk the same thing happening again. Our experience that we just had has contaminated our choices for the future versus if we can slow our thinking down and say, hey, this discomfort in my body, you know it doesn't feel good to get something wrong. It feels uncomfortable, it feels awkward, it feels embarrassing.

Speaker 1: 23:55

And I don't always present in that meeting and today I did. I don't always get a chance to speak with those leaders and, while I wish I said the name correctly, it was a chance to show them that I can correct myself. It was a chance to show them that I'm human and what I'm going to do next time is prepare a little harder to make sure I have the names right, but giving myself kudos for actually doing the thing and recovering from it. That requires slowing down our thinking to look for the redemption. I like the expression look for the gifts in the garbage. What was the good in that situation? And we have to slow down long enough to do that.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Love it, love it. I that's. So I'm going to kind of step back a little bit and and we all have this desire to fit in, to be long, etc. And where's the line? So one of the things I'm one of the muscles I've been building, is not caring about what other people think and being me and doing my thing.

Speaker 2: 24:56

Um, what's the line between not caring what you think, what other people think, and like that desire to belong, and that that comfort with being awkward where? Where do you see that line? Um, because I think there's a lot of value in beginning to be like. This is who I am. So, for example, I take a lot of. Most of us have been influenced by Brené Brown I don't know who on this planet has not, but she talks about.

Speaker 2: 25:26

There are 10 people who you put in your pocket and when somebody gives you criticism, you say, oh, are you on my list? No, bye-bye. And you put your 10 people on your pocket and you're like, okay, this bye-bye. And you put your 10 people in your pocket and you're like, okay, this person gave me some criticism, I'm going to take that criticism seriously and that's. That's kind of like you're building. You're not caring what other people think, not caring about the instagram comments or the social media comments that are negative. Yeah, there's a muscle you got to build there, and then there's a muscle around belonging. Do you have any thoughts or experience with that there?

Speaker 1: 26:02

Yeah, so that's a tough one. Yeah, first, just validating what you're saying is awkwardness is a social emotion, meaning we don't tend to experience awkwardness or embarrassment or cringe when we are by ourself. So if I am practicing my presentation and I butcher this person's name but no one was here to hear me, I might think, oh okay, wait, I didn't get that right, but nobody was here. So I don't feel awkward per se or I don't feel embarrassed, I just correct watching. And so the definition I use is awkwardness is the emotion that we feel when the person we believe we are is at odds with the person who momentarily is on display, meaning the person I think I am. I'm someone who really cares about saying names correctly.

Speaker 1: 26:48

Now Keith over here thinks I am just, you know, willy nilly, you know, don't respect cultures, whatever it is, you know, I think now that somebody else is on display and in that gap is where I feel the emotion. So social acceptance is still a very real and very hardwired human need. I want you to like me, I want you to approve of who I am, and when that gap exists, that gets thrown into question for a moment, right, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good. That said, if I obsess over that gap and continue to let it paralyze me from trying to say your name in the future or trying to engage with people who have interesting names, then that's when it becomes a problem, right? Because then I've stopped taking any chances at all, I've turned to inaction, I've started to freeze, and so it is okay to want to socially belong. I think the evaluation or the tipping point is when is my desire for social belonging creating moments of inaction? That's where we need to put a little bit of a spotlight and explore what those moments represent.

Speaker 2: 27:53

Yeah, I love how you framed that. That's great stuff. I think it's a good time to double click on any book. You talk about the distinction between social pain and physical pain, so I think that's a good time to explain to the listeners what did you mean by that and what's the distinction there.

Speaker 1: 28:11

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:11

So, when we think about what we just started to touch on, this idea of social belonging is still a very real and hardwired human need. Right, our caveman brains are still looking for belonging from the tribe. I know this is something you've discussed in the past in your work. Right, we're humans. We want to be part of the group.

Speaker 1: 28:29

Now, what is interesting is that when we watch someone else fall down and trip right, our brains actually register another person's social pain or their physical pain, the same as social pain. So let me just make this very real with an example. I think it's easier. If I were to fall down and trip and hurt my knee, let's say that's physical pain. If someone else were to fall down and trip and hurt their knee, that's physical pain. But we might go ouch, right, that looks like it hurts.

Speaker 1: 29:09

Now, interestingly, what's less obvious than that is if I were to get up on stage and have something really off, terrible on my slide that's not supposed to be there, then I would experience if I knew about it, I would experience embarrassment, right, or a feeling of awkwardness. Interestingly, neuroscience tells us that when we experience, when often we see somebody else experiencing embarrassment or awkwardness, the same part of our brain lights up as though we were experiencing that emotion ourselves. So we literally, in our sharing of just this is our human community wiring. If somebody else falls on their knee, part of our brain lights up oh, that poor person. If somebody else messes up their presentation or flubs on their words, same part of our brain lights up. We have this empathic response, which is generally very helpful, but it actually surprises people to learn that physical pain or social pain it activates the same part of the brain. We worry about people the same way.

Speaker 2: 30:07

It's a lot like when people get rejection it feels like physical pain. There's some research around that. I love I think you and I are on a similar page for many things. And the other piece I think we should double click on because you just talked about it is the self-identity gap, which creates an incongruence between you. So what you were talking about before is the front stage self and the backstage self where I do something. Anyway, how about you? I'm not answering.

Speaker 1: 30:39

You go ahead, sure, yeah, no.

Speaker 2: 30:41

Let's expand on that for the listener.

Speaker 1: 30:44

The self-identity gap is the name that I created. That essentially points to these two selves we started to allude to. There's the me I believe myself to be, my internal identity, and then, in a moment, there's the me that other people see, our external reality. So, again, I think examples are helpful. Let's just say I'm amongst friends, Forget about the workplace, I'm amongst friends. There's a song on and I'm singing it at the top of my lungs and I apparently am singing the song lyrics. Dead wrong. It's not what the song is saying at all.

Speaker 1: 31:21

In that moment. It could be a moment, it could be many moments, but for that moment, the me I believe myself to be, my internal identity, is different than the person they see. They're like. What is this girl singing? Does she? I thought she was a big Taylor Swift fan. What happened? What is she singing?

Speaker 1: 31:33

Right, there's a, there's an incongruence, there's a dissonance between these two people, and so, between these walls, I refer to it as the self-identity gap, where our two identities are sort of competing the one we want to show people and then the one they actually see. And so I share the metaphor of if we had a mind-reading helmet on. In that moment, our brains are all of a sudden spinning going oh my gosh, in this moment. That's who this person sees right now. This is who they think is who is actually under this helmet right now. This is who they think is who is actually under this helmet right now. That's who they see and it really kind of can do a number on us. Now. It's really learning how to live inside of the walls of that gap that unlocks everything For some of us. We get stuck there. We ruminate in the car, in the shower I can't. If you're watching this on audio or listening to audio, you can see Keith raising his hand.

Speaker 2: 32:28

You know I ruminate, I fully own my rumination, like I have techniques to get out of it. But I fully own that yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:35

And you'll talk to people who will recount in perfect detail an embarrassing or awkward situation from 10 years ago.

Speaker 2: 32:42

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:43

Perfect detail, and so those things can put their hooks in you versus people who we perceive as confident. Here's the interesting thing it's not that they don't get to go into that gap, they absolutely go into that gap.

Speaker 1: 32:57

They live in that gap too, their comeback rate is quicker. They don't stay in that gap. They find tools and ways to recover from the discomfort of that gap more quickly. But it's not that they get to avoid it. The most confident people we know get to stay in the walls of that gap too. They just don't linger there. And so that's our opportunity to embrace awkward confidence. Not trying to get rid of the gap. You can't. But how do we get comfortable with our comeback rate? How do we get into the point where we can tolerate it?

Speaker 2: 33:26

So one of the things that I want to double click on there something I talk to my clients about is stuff is going to happen, life is going to happen.

Speaker 2: 33:34

What I think we do need to spend time on is on our recovery time. So if I sprint like well, I have ACL surgery so I can't sprint right now. I'm not sprinting right now but like, let's say, I was sprinting and I'm getting in shape, what happens is you can do a hundred meter sprint and your recovery time from when you could do another hundred meter sprint, it decreases as you get fitter. So when you first do it, it might take you two minutes before you can like do another all out sprint. You do it sprinting like twice a week for the next four months. You're probably going to get around to like you can do the 100 meters and then, like 20 seconds later, you can do another 100 meters. And I think that muscle of when stuff happens whether you go all out, whether you have an awkward moment, you make a mistake, you have a failure in a business, you have something how do we build that muscle of improving our recovery time, our bounce back time that point, I think, is worth double clicking on.

Speaker 1: 34:35

Yes for sure, and that's honestly the second half of the book. Right, this is part two, which is I don't think self-awareness alone will do it, because some of us are aware I ruminate. These are the stories I tell myself. Okay, so let's just assume we've done that mental pre-work. Let's just assume we've spent a little bit of extra time examining what are the stories we were raised with, what are the stories we tell ourselves about these moments? Are people looking at us as closely as we think they are? Often not right, sometimes, yes, but often not. Assume that we've done this mental pre-work.

Speaker 1: 35:09

The second half, and the piece that I think in this modern era is most missing, if I'm being honest, is the conditioning, which is how do we condition these muscles in order to improve our comeback rate? So if you are a sprinter, I hope that the day of the big race isn't the first time that you've used these muscles, because that's going to hurt, that's going to hurt and your comeback rate, your in-between recovery rate, is going to suck. There has to be conditioning, and so you know I'll be very, very tactical here. When I talk about indexing towards social interaction, I want to give some very tactical things people can do in micro moments so that they have the needed muscle in the big moments. So here let me just give you a very practical example.

Speaker 1: 35:55

The next time you're going to get food at the supermarket or in the grocery store line, I want you to leave your phone in your pocket. I want you to just stand in line, keep your head up, make eye contact with someone right. The next time you're on an elevator not everyone does this, but a surprising amount do I don't want you to press the closed door elevator button shut quickly to avoid riding up with someone right. The next time the DoorDash app is acting up, I want you to call the restaurant. If you're in a coffee shop or a subway, just try leaving your headphones out for 10 or 15 minutes In small stakes moments. If we can practice what it feels like to have a conversation where the outcome is not guaranteed not guaranteed we are building the necessary social musculature. We're building the comeback rate ability to withstand tough conversations, unexpected moments when we need it. But when we're completely wiping them away in these small moments, we don't stand a chance in the big moments, because unexpected conversations are not in our DNA anymore.

Speaker 2: 37:09

There's another important piece, I think, in doing that is that we have a tendency to overblow or see the consequences of those actions as much bigger than they are. Yeah, so the consequence of you talking to a stranger who in in the shop, it's pretty much zero. It's either going to be pleasant or unpleasant. You're never going to see the person again, but in our mind that ends up being very looming large. And I think that muscle is also good to practice in terms of just life skills. You're in business, you're going into a meeting. Often those I don't like the term difficult conversations but the difficult conversations, the hard conversations you have to go into we often. They often loom much bigger in our heads, yep, than they actually are when we go and have them. Yeah, and so you're building both of those muscles at the same time. So it's a great. It's a great social experiment. I like it.

Speaker 1: 37:59

I agree with you and I think what, what it? Also go ahead.

Speaker 2: 38:03

No, no, I was going to say everybody listening, go out and do try that social experiment and make sure you, because the other piece around that is that we are in a loneliness epidemic and part of that is because we're all constantly in our phones and our technology and our headphones, so there's very little chance for the spontaneous. I'll give you an example. I used to walk my son to school before my surgery every day and what I would do is I'll drop him off and as soon as I drop him off I put my headphones in and then walk back and I realized when I do that I'm cutting myself off from any kind of potential of meeting other parents on the way back. So I intentionally stopped doing that. I intentionally started putting my headphones, not taking my headphones with me, and what happened was I was randomly hey, you just meet these people and I'm building my social network, but you have to be intentional about that.

Speaker 1: 38:56

That's the key word, it's intentionality. We have to make that choice. Now, when I'm running in the woods, I have in headphones because, quite frankly, I'm huffing and puffing and I can't carry a conversation anyway, right.

Speaker 1: 39:06

But when I'm walking in the park again. If not the whole time, it's okay. If you're not. Especially for introverts this can be more challenging. You don't need to do it the whole time. We're not all wired alike, but I think this is part of the important lesson. Often people hear I wrote a book about awkwardness and they think, oh, this must be a book for introverts. I am a 100% extrovert. I'm going to go ahead and assume 100. I don't even think 99,. Like 100% extrovert, I am energized by other people. I am not an introvert, but what the science tells us? Even before the pandemic, we actually found out that certain professions that are more isolated, things like astronauts, polar explorers right, there's certain professions where they're more isolated. We learned that their social skills can atrophy the same way physical skills, physical muscle, can atrophy. Following the pandemic, introverts, extroverts, ambiverts we all saw just how true that was, because then we all came back and convened in person for the first or second time and everybody was like ah.

Speaker 2: 40:10

Awkward, everyone is awkward, trying to read each other's face. Are we hugging? Can I touch you Right? Are we shaking hands? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:18

But it wasn't just because of the pandemic. The science actually says that without practice we struggle to read each other's cues and gestures and facial expressions. Social skills require practice, and the more we keep numbing them away, no wonder when you get to the negotiation for your promotion, no wonder when you're presenting to the big client and they respond in a way that you didn't expect, no wonder that feels extra awkward and extra hard. Our muscles haven't seen the light of day the way they used to.

Speaker 2: 40:49

Yeah, I think you and I could talk forever, so I'm going to start to wrap things up and I got just a couple more questions. I'll say three more questions for you. Let's talk a little bit about what awkwardness is not, Because I think that's a really important piece that you highlight in your work.

Speaker 1: 41:10

Yeah, so we talked about one already, which is awkwardness is not ineptitude, you know, please don't confuse the two. The best metaphor analogy I use in the book is I would not want to hire an inept anesthesiologist, but I'd be, perfectly fine hiring an awkward one.

Speaker 1: 41:27

I don't want to hire an inept tax accountant, but I'm perfectly fine hiring an awkward one, right? This doesn't have to do with an absence of skill. It has to do with the fact that we're all human and these moments will happen. So it is not ineptitude. Number two, awkwardness is not the same as vulnerability. So again, like you, I worship at the altar of all things.

Speaker 1: 41:47

Brene Brown, I definitely put her on a pedestal, pedestal that she didn't ask to be on, but so be it right. And often people will ask me yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 41:56

Actually, she's a really good example of awkward.

Speaker 1: 41:59

Oh yes.

Speaker 2: 41:59

Because if you look at her second talk, where she talks about how she contemplated going in and stealing the talk from that, if you haven't seen her second TED talk, it's amazing the call to courage right. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, sorry I interrupted you. No, you're right.

Speaker 1: 42:15

She's a perfect example. But people will often ask me you know, it sounds like there are similarities between awkwardness and vulnerability. And yes, there are similarities between awkwardness and vulnerability. And yes, there are similarities. I think of awkwardness embracing awkwardness as a necessary and unskippable stepping stone to actually being able to embrace vulnerability in our own lives, because vulnerability by definition, is higher on the scale of emotional exposure.

Speaker 1: 42:44

It requires a little bit more emotional disclosure. You know I'm feeling a certain way about this. Awkwardness is lower on the scale of emotional exposure. It still requires an element of emotional risk. It still requires an element of uncertainty, but we don't need to go all full in about our struggle or the way we're feeling about something. But if we can't tolerate an awkward moment or an awkward conversation, if we can't even tolerate that, then really accessing true vulnerability is still a distance away, and I think the fear that I see is with leaders. I know that many leaders have heard vulnerability is a superpower. We need to be more vulnerable, and so what I've started to observe is this display of faux vulnerability where leaders are like oh, we have to do layoffs.

Speaker 1: 43:34

This is really hard for me. And we're like well, buddy, you're still getting your $10 million bonus, are you sure it's hard? For you, so we can't fake vulnerability. And so if vulnerability is not within reach for you yet, this is your permission slip, that's okay. Don't pretend, just get comfortable with awkwardness and that messy middle first.

Speaker 2: 43:56

I want to. So there's a concept that I quite like, and I use it a lot in my own work, called the conformity threshold, and what it means is that at one point so the classic example is Will Chamberlain for one season shot underarm in the NBA and it was called a granny shot, but his shooting average was amazing that year- but, because everybody teased him and told him it was a granny shot.

Speaker 2: 44:23

He went back to shooting over arm and your conformity threshold is what level are you at in terms of at what point do you have social pressure where you begin to conform versus? I know this is the right path to go and I don't care what people think I'm not going to conform. I'm going to do my thing and move on. I couldn't help but make a connection between how this good, awkward conversation might help us lower our conformity threshold, and I know I'm throwing this concept at you for the first time, but do you have?

Speaker 2: 45:04

any thoughts. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Speaker 1: 45:06

Yeah, I love it. I love that. Actually, I don't think I've ever heard that term used in that way, so we'll be stealing that. Thank you, I love it.

Speaker 2: 45:14

Yeah, and just reference me once, and then after that you can use it forever.

Speaker 1: 45:18

I will reference you every time I love it.

Speaker 1: 45:20

And I think it has everything to do with this idea. Every time I love it. And I think it has everything to do with this idea because, you know, without being cliche here, no one who is memorable or have achieved some spectacular level of greatness fits squarely into the conformity box, right? I don't think anyone who's done anything worthy of life has been you know, a cookie cutter of everyone next to them. Those people we don't remember their names, and so it's not that conformity is bad. It really depends on the person. If you are truly fulfilled in your vocation and in your life and simplicity serves you, you do a job, you take pride in a job well done. You can leave it at work, you can go home to your family, you'll have a simple life. I don't know that you need to go rogue. I don't think you need to zag. If everybody else is zigging, that is maybe not for you, right?

Speaker 1: 46:13

So I think it's okay for it not to be for you. But if you are the type of person who knows that there's something more that you're in pursuit of and you know that there's some professional risks or personal risks that are going to require you to get there, then you do need to expand your conformity threshold. There's no way around that, there's only through, and there are going to be people along the way who don't like you. And again, keita, I like to be liked. I'm not going to mince my words. I like it when people like me and I don't like it when people don't like me.

Speaker 1: 46:46

I still am a people pleaser. I work on it daily. But I also have to understand that there is a trade-off someone else's approval. Then I have to decide in any given moment, even if this right now feels controversial to someone and they're not going to like me for it. They're going to think Hannah's full of crap, she's full of fluff. Okay, that sucks, I don't like that. But I choose in this moment that my desire to galvanize this message is more important to me than that person, and every time it's a choice.

Speaker 2: 47:21

And to me. We're in similar camps with Alan but I just say bring the receipts. So if you want to challenge me, just bring your receipts, because I know what I'm saying is backed by research and evidence and I could point to the study that says this is why I believe this thing. You bring your receipt, which is a study that counters what I think and here what I'm willing to change my mind Often you're not which tells me all that I need to know.

Speaker 1: 47:48

Yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 47:50

So just bring your receipts and we're good.

Speaker 1: 47:53

And just one more little thought on that is if conformity is something that's hard to break out of, don't worry so much about yourself. Maybe start with who's around you. Can you increase the number of people that are going a little bit more zag instead of zig in your orbit? Watch them right. There's that contagion that occurs when we're around more people doing that. So if you're not ready, spend more time with people who are See what rubs off on you.

Speaker 2: 48:19

One of my favorite quotes is well-behaved women seldom make history.

Speaker 1: 48:24

Yeah, I like that too. That's one of my favorite.

Speaker 2: 48:28

It's one of my favorite quotes, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:30

Love it.

Speaker 2: 48:31

All right. So, before we close off today, what's something that you want to share with the audience or listeners about leaning into good or awkward? What's something you want to share with folks before we jump off?

Speaker 1: 48:45

I'll share one of my favorite one-line quotes and increasingly I think this is the mantra for my life. If I could have something on my gravestone, it would be this. It is take your work seriously, take your relationships seriously, take your discipline seriously, but don't take yourself so seriously.

Speaker 2: 49:05

Life is too short, all right audience and everybody who is listening. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. I feel like Hannah and I could have spoken for a long time, but, as usual, actually, before we do that, where can people find you and learn more about your work?

Speaker 1: 49:22

No, thank you, Hannah Pryor. On all socials, linkedin is my preferred Instagram as well. Henapryorcom will redirect you to my regular website. And then the book. Good Awkward is everywhere books are sold, so I'd love to make some new friends.

Speaker 2: 49:37

Awesome. All right folks. Thank you for joining us for yet another episode of Conversations with Keita Deming. Join me next time where we're exploring the two questions of how do we become better people in business. How do we become better business people? I'll be interviewing yet another thought leader, guest or author or entrepreneur who has some thoughts or insights to share with you. Have a wonderful day and see you next time on Conversations with Kita Deming. Thank you for listening to Conversations with Kita Deming. Over the years, I've learned that few things will impact or improve your life more than improving your strategies and having better conversations with the people you wish to serve. If you like today's guest and the idea is shared, please like, follow and provide a review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also visit my website to sign up for my newsletter and learn about the release of my upcoming book. I look forward to the next episode where we'll be in conversation with someone who will help you become a better business person, and a better person in business. See you next time.