Haesun Moon: The Art of Strategic Listening

Join us for an enlightening conversation with Dr. Haesun Moon, Executive Director at the Canadian Centre for Brief Coaching and author of "Coaching A to Z." 

In this episode, Haesun explores the profound impact of strategic listening in solution-focused coaching, emphasizing how intentional listening choices drive meaningful conversations that foster personal and professional growth.

Key Takeaways:

1. Develop enhanced communication skills through strategic listening.
2. Discover the evolution and richness of language for deeper understanding.
3. Implement practical strategies to improve team dynamics and customer relations through effective listening practices.

Haesun's links:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/haesunmoon/ 
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/haesun.moon/ 
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/moon.haesun 
• X (Twitter): https://x.com/HaesunMoon

Hi, I'm your podcast host Keita Demming: Author, Advisor, Thought Partner & Coach.

I'm an award-winning educator and coach with a PhD in Adult Education and Workplace Learning who works to transform companies into places that are idea-driven and people-centered.

At The Covenant Group, I design training programs and coach entrepreneurs and business leaders to meet their strategic goals and build their businesses.

In my book, Strategy to Action: Run Your Business Without It Running You, I introduce an effective and straightforward tool to elevate your skills as a business professional and navigate the corporate world. The book offers practical insights on transforming strategies into tangible results.

Follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and subscribe to my Newsletter.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Listening is a choice. So listening as an act it's almost like a kaleidoscope. So it's your choice of what you want to listen to or listen for, and I think that's the distinction that you actually taught me a few years ago is that what are you listening to or what are you listening for, right? So when we think about this idea of kaleidoscope, it's your choice. I know how to listen, but sometimes I turn it off because you know what I'm too tired, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that for you. So I sometimes turn it off, but it's a choice.

Speaker 2: 0:45

Hello and welcome to another episode of Conversations with Kita Deming. Today I'll be in conversation with Haysan Moon, who's a thought leader in the coaching world specifically solution-focused approaches to coaching, and in our conversation today we talk about how we use coaching to help people become better people in business. We go into some very interesting and unexpected places. So if you want to learn more about this episode, please feel free to dive in. I think you're going to enjoy this conversation and, as usual, if you like these episodes, subscribe wherever you get podcasts. You can also join my mailing list at keytelemmingcom and you can support my work by picking up the book Strategy to Action. Hope you enjoyed today's episode with Haysan Moon. Hello and welcome to the podcast Conversations with Keithlemming, haysan. For people who have no idea who you are and what you do, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 1: 1:45

Sure, my name is Ahisan Ahisan Moon is the full name and I am an executive director at the Canadian Centre for Brief Coaching and celebrating this book that I have written about a year and a half ago called Coaching A to Z. And then what else is there? And I teach solution-focused brief coaching, and also I'm a musician, did you?

Speaker 2: 2:11

know that, gita, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I didn't know you were a musician. So one thing is, I would say, is you released the book a year and a half ago, but you definitely wrote it before that.

Speaker 1: 2:22

But yes, yeah, I guess I did. I mean, there are a few books that I have collaborated with other people, but this is my first solo one and the book is an interesting thing. Like writing, a book is an interesting thing. I was actually talking to my award-winning friend, jenny Huang, the other day and she actually said so many people ask when they are writing something, they say what do I need to gain to become a writer or to write? So what do I need to gain in terms of knowledge or ideas and so on, inspirations? But then she said you know, it's not about really gaining something, but for you to be a writer, you need to lose something. So now, what do you need to lose? Was the question that she posed.

Speaker 1: 3:10

So for me, starting this writing process about actually exactly in 2014. And that's when it began, because inspiration, so to speak, came before then, when I was watching people doing coaching, there are some words that really came up very strongly for me and I started to make note of them. And then, 2014, I remember making this chart, making this chart of words, and I wanted to look medieval, so I actually asked my graphic designer friend to actually make me a chart for me, and then I had that chart since 2014. And some words actually changed. But yeah, that's when I actually I guess I got started on it.

Speaker 2: 3:52

So for people who have no idea about the book, tell us the title of the book, because I think that's kind of important.

Speaker 1: 3:57

Title of the book is. It's funny, I don't have it here. I have it in all the other languages, but not in English. I love it here. I have it in all the other languages, but not in English. It's called Coaching A to Z the Extraordinary Use of Ordinary Words. I think it's somewhere here, but I have that in another language, but cover looks kind of like this, but this is now Korean, right, it will be hard for some of you to read that. So yeah, so that's the title how do we actually use ordinary words in extraordinary ways? And it's A to Z, because it's an actual like lexicographic way of presenting these ideas from literally from A to Z.

Speaker 2: 4:43

A to Z.

Speaker 1: 4:44

Yes.

Speaker 2: 4:46

So, hesan, the purpose of this podcast is to explore two questions how do we become better people in business and how to become better business people? I would say you're in the coaching space, in the space of studying language, and where we connect is that we believe that conversations are a big part of how people become better people. And your answers may change in the future, but for today, how would you answer the question around how do we become better people in business?

Speaker 1: 5:20

That's such a big question. I just got up. You know Better people in business. It's an interesting idea that I've seen a lot of people in coaching business or other businesses too. But I am familiar with people who are in consulting, coaching, education and so on, and I think I've been burned a few times and also I'm sure I've burned other people without even like intending. I think better people in business or better people just in period.

Speaker 1: 6:01

I think of my what my dad actually said when I was growing up. He would tell me stories and he would say things, especially at dinner tables. So every time and we actually made sure that we have dinner together at least like five times a week, especially when I was growing up my dad was home every dinner. So I remember every dinner he would tell a story and this one time that he was talking about this investing and things like that, I was in high school, probably, and we were talking about this topic of investing because I started to, you know, working and so on, and my mom actually has this background in accounting, so she's pretty good with and usually what's interesting is their idea of money was different. So my mom's idea of money is saving plan, my dad's idea of money is spending plan Spending in a good way, but that's how they define budget. So I remember them talking about it not talking to me about it and my dad actually said well, there is some interesting idea of economy that we can have. He said it's an idea of relational economy, and relational economy is similar to how to have the relational ledger, where you can owe people or people can owe you something, and that's still economy. But then what we owe is not money. What we owe, or what they owe me, is either appreciation or apology.

Speaker 1: 7:38

So I remember him talking about and I had this grid in my mind that he said you can actually go around your day thinking that other people owe you an apology. How would your day be like, who do you actually think owes you an apology? And then he said who do you actually think owes you an appreciation? And you go around your day thinking that so-and-so owes me an appreciation. I didn't get it Now, how would you know? How would that make your day?

Speaker 1: 8:11

And then he said what about who do you owe your apology? Like, who do you have to like apologize to? And if you carry that idea around your days thinking, oh, I owe someone an apology. And then he said probably the healthiest way to carry yourself around the world is thinking who do I owe appreciation to? So he talked about this relational economy and you know, what's funny is that it's for some reason coming back very strongly these days for me. So, yes, my answer may change later on, but right now I'm thinking better. People in business is people who know what kind of appreciation that they owe, and I think that's something that I constantly think about, especially as I have this book out and then this dialogic orientation quadrant as a model that I am using right now that I have developed. I realize I owe so many people an appreciation for, either giving me an opportunity to grow, opportunity to learn, and my mentors. So I think that's how I am reflecting on these days that relational economy and what kind of ledger that we're keeping.

Speaker 2: 9:32

I think that's a fascinating idea, especially given what you study. So if you think about, you study the interrelational approach to language. So it's curious to me that that story of your dad is so looming in your memories. But then I'm also now curious about how it's influenced your work, if it has at all. I think it influenced your work, if it has at all.

Speaker 1: 10:06

I think it influenced my work in a way that I hear that when people come for coaching, I hear this idea or concept, especially when parents come in, and when parents come to see, they have this idea of nobody appreciates me. They actually hate me. So when I hear that, I am reminded of that relational economy. So how does it influence my work? I think I am reminded every time I'm in a conversation or sometimes I am doing something. Every time I'm in a conversation, or sometimes I am doing something, and when I realize, oh, wait a second, you know I get to do this because so-and-so actually made that room for me or made that opportunity for me, when I have the thought I actually do stop and then write an email.

Speaker 1: 10:57

So not too long ago, dr Ron Warner is the person who introduced me to Solution Focused by me walking into his class, you know as a mistake, but he was the gateway for me. And then you know, every year we will actually meet and you know I will just take him out for dinner and so on. But I haven't seen him before the pandemic and I haven't talked to him. And then I was in the middle of like writing an article and then I was like wait a second, I need to check on him. So then I dropped everything and I emailed him. So it shows up like that. So now when I remember something, then I don't wait, I actually do email or reach out, and people sometimes get random emails. So I think that's how it influenced my work day. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:44

Yeah, but also the methodology you use is interactional, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 11:50

It is absolutely interactional.

Speaker 2: 11:55

So for a listener, what does that mean? They don't know what an interactional approach is and they don't know what that means. What does that mean?

Speaker 1: 12:04

So, for example, when you see somebody looking certain way, what do you say? You might say what's wrong, what's the matter?

Speaker 2: 12:15

Okay, everything okay.

Speaker 1: 12:17

Is everything okay, yeah, and sometimes when they are, let's say, they are even more explicit in their gesture, as in they're crying, then first thing that we do is we interpret that as certain way. So we internally, we assume something that is internally happening. So actually the whole field of psychology, majority of it, actually has developed as an interpretive practice because it's expert driven, so I'm the expert. So if I see something, I make interpretation and it must be this. So that's internal process. I assume that there is an internal process. And even the word internal is an interesting thing, because internal actually assumes that emotions live inside of you. So internal means if I cut you open, do I see your emotion? Do I cut your head open? Finally I can actually take the emotion out. So there's this idea of internal thing that is separated from external thing and that's very much Westernized idea, or I guess it's how colonized ideas actually show up in therapy or coaching. So you as an expert sit there and then you make interpretation of their gestures and oh, since you do this, you have closed posture, you must be resisting. I mean this is ridiculous.

Speaker 1: 13:40

But then interactionally, how we do that is well, the person is crying because somebody actually just gave her a thank you card, right? So interactionally, you can only describe, you cannot explain. So you don't explain the things of other people's logic and how they do their life. But you can describe. For example, the client said I don't care. Oh, the client is resisting. Now you're assuming their mental processing or its internal process, you're resisting, I don't care.

Speaker 1: 14:18

Versus, when you look at before, they said that what did the coach say? And coach actually said so you have a lot of things on your plate and you know blah, blah, blah. They said something completely like random. And then the client says, oh, I don't care. Now, it's not because the client is resisting, it's because you said something random and client is actually responding to you. So before we say this client or this team is dysfunctional I get that all the time this team is dysfunctional, can you come in and work with them? Versus, that's actually labeling somebody as one of the signs that you just internalize. You make it something about their assume, something about their internal quality rather than well, this team used to be highly functioning. What happened interactionally? So interaction process is, I think, looking at something in a phenomenological way. How did it happen? How did it come about?

Speaker 2: 15:17

how did it come to be?

Speaker 2: 15:19

yeah so interesting no yeah, well, yeah, I mean, you know this full out exactly and you and I are on similar pages with this, but in many ways you're making a dualist. It's not dualistic, but the theory of the mind, the kind of philosophy conversation about whether your thoughts live in your brain or they're outside your brain. There's all kinds of interesting conversations we could have about that. But I operate in a Western world and I'm a Western sort of construct. So sometimes when we challenge these taken for granted assumptions, people kind of look at us like confused what are you talking about? People kind of look at us like confused what are you?

Speaker 1: 16:11

talking about.

Speaker 2: 16:12

So I do think this idea is one that is very powerful, but also very difficult for people to internalize.

Speaker 1: 16:27

Interpret yes, but Keita, what does that look like to decolonize the practice of conversations Right?

Speaker 2: 16:34

Well, that's a hard question for me when I'm speaking English.

Speaker 1: 16:37

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Speaker 2: 16:43

Like I don't know where to start once you ask that question. Like I'm speaking English.

Speaker 1: 16:48

That's such a brilliant answer. Like I'm speaking English.

Speaker 2: 16:52

That's such a brilliant answer. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know where to start because, like, the very language we use is a colonial language. So I, yeah, I'm like- not sure?

Speaker 2: 17:07

Oh my God that is so cool, so like I, so one. This is not a podcast about me, but anyway. So when I was in university, I studied some linguistics, and one of the things that you look at is in countries where there are slaves, et cetera, and then there's a colonizer. Let's use the example of French. If you bring a bunch of slaves who speak a bunch of different languages and then the dominant language is French, the kids in the dad generation create a new language which they call a patois, and a patois then develops into its own language, which is why countries like Haiti, jamaica, trinidad have these what we call dialects or patois.

Speaker 2: 17:50

From a social perspective, mostly colonized didn't consider that a proper language. From a linguistic perspective, it was always considered a language. The most interesting form of this was, I think it's in Costa Rica, but they brought a bunch of deaf kids together with the intention of teaching them American Sign Language, and these kids made up their own language and, as far as I know, it's the only sign language that has spontaneously evolved into a full language. So it's like so, number one, humans have this incredible capacity for language. That's number one. And then number two, the around colonizing pieces that, if you look at a patwa. In some ways that's not a, that's an independent thing that was created by that slave generation or that slave groups based on the colonial language, but it's its own language. I wouldn't call that a colonial language, so the question is quite complicated, I think.

Speaker 1: 19:04

Quite complicated. We could actually have an entire semester long. Like course on it, we could actually have an entire semester long course on it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:12

But in terms of the work that you and I do, I think you and I lean into conversations around how do we use conversations to help people become better people? What are sort of your latest insights or ideas around that?

Speaker 1: 19:26

I think language is language in use, specifically, and also how we invite other people to language their reality. So the whole idea of social construction is, um, it becomes a thing because you talk it to be, or something like that in a very simple way. But but for me, I see, when we, when people come to take courses like how to coach or something like that, people think that they're going to just, you know, walk away with a set of questions or something, but they actually end up learning how to listen better. So I think better people in business usually is better listeners, whether they're listening to their customers, their teams, their staff members, their partners. They become better listeners. So I think, in a nutshell, coaching, or like knowing how to coach, actually is knowing how to listen better.

Speaker 1: 20:28

How do we listen to people, especially around what they want, what they want different, and I think this idea of positive differences is what we usually call in a colonized way, where I call it, how do we decolonize? And one of the first things that I talk about is this idea of a goal needs to go Like this what's your goal? And let's this, what's your goal, and let's actually set up next steps and let's go. There is like what? This is a weird idea, but when I talk to why?

Speaker 2: 21:01

why would you say.

Speaker 1: 21:02

Why would you say the goal is weird because you know, in conversations, when I talk to teenagers, for example, when I say what's your goal, they're like I don't, they don't have a goal for.

Speaker 2: 21:11

like I don't know they don't have a goal for the conversation. They don't have a goal for the conversation.

Speaker 1: 21:15

They don't have a goal for their life, they don't have a goal for anything. So really, this happened not too long ago and I reflected on this idea of a goal that we are really pushing and coaching, that you know what's your goal, and this teenager really gave me this idea of like I don't know, I don't have one, and I was slightly stuck. So then I changed the way that I prompted and I said okay, so you don't have a goal? No, I don't, I don't care. And then I said so you want something different? Like what do you want different?

Speaker 2: 21:47

Like tomorrow right, want different like tomorrow right there's a, there's an idea that there are three things that separate human beings from other species around other species one is our capacity for language. Two, our past is our capacity to set goals. And three is our capacity to share those goals and achieve them together. So, for me, when you say that you're challenging what I think fundamentally makes, us human beings.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Fundamentally, what sets us apart from all the other species is that we set a goal. Hey, we're going to build that shelter. Hey, we're going to kill that woolly mammoth.

Speaker 1: 22:29

And we collaborate to do that right.

Speaker 2: 22:31

And we collaborate to do that right, and we collaborate to do that. So when you say that, you rock my very core, because those are the three things that I think make and that's not my language, I can't remember who wrote about that.

Speaker 1: 22:46

This is an example of how we language things. We language that as a goal and I think that is misleading. So how I want to language that of our innate human thing to do, I don't think it's a good name for it. It's not a goal. I think it's something that people want different.

Speaker 2: 23:09

So like a desire, like a desire.

Speaker 1: 23:12

It could be a desire, but I can ask anybody. I can ask somebody who actually I have a friend I am supporting right now who actually was diagnosed three years ago and she was supposed to have two years to live but then oh wow, look at all this emoticons years to live. But then, oh wow, look at all this emoticons. And she outlived that diagnosis. But now she's in her last weeks, if not days. Now I cannot have a conversation about what's your goal, but I can have conversations still about difference that she wants, but I can have conversations still about difference that she wants. So I think languaging that innate human quality as a goal might be misleading, it might miss a lot of other sort of opportunities, because goal actually works in business settings and this settings and you know whole capitalist scheme, sure, but then people who are in those stages the the languaging it as goal is. It's not fitting.

Speaker 2: 24:16

but languaging it as difference that you want, it fits and you're going back to this relational approach, relational economy kind of thing, right. So I want to let me kind of loop back on something that you talked about. Can you give us like a quick lesson in listening, or what does it mean to be better at listening, or how does one approach that? Because on that bookshelf I probably have four books on listening, like, and I still think I'm an awful listener, right. So give us a quick, um micro lesson on how do we become better at listening.

Speaker 1: 24:50

Listening is a choice. So listening as an act it's almost like a kaleidoscope. So it's your choice of what you want to listen to or listened for, and I think that's the distinction that you actually taught me a few years ago is that what are you listening to or what are you listening for, right? So when we think about this idea of kaleidoscope, it's your choice. I know how to listen, but sometimes I turn it off because you know what I'm too tired, I don't want to do that, I don't want to do that for you, so I sometimes turn that off. But it's a choice, for example, based on my research, like it was simple.

Speaker 1: 25:32

It was very complicated in the beginning, like I didn't know what to listen for, even in, you know, coaching conversations, and then it became pretty apparent that there are some content that the other person is giving me that I can actually choose. So there are so many words, but then out of those words, there are some words that indicate what they want or what they want different, and then, if I can pick out on those and then expand on that, that becomes a much better conversation for that person and actually for me too. I used to work in different modalities and I was so tired after maybe max two clients a day and then I actually went through the whole vicarious experience of depression and all those things. But working in this way of expanding on what people want, their sense of purpose, possibilities and progress and then I can actually see five clients a day I'm still very uplifted because you're just witnessing somebody else's purpose and possibilities and progress in their life and the whole conversation becomes so uplifting for both of you.

Speaker 1: 26:42

So I think listening as a choice is what do you listen for? And listen for their preferred future, what is it that they want to see different in their future? And also, what are some of their resourceful past things from their past. Even when people tell you and they will do this three times more likely than the other you know preferred future and resourceful past. When they tell you about their troubled past or dreaded future, you know we usually mistake it for like, oh, this is negative, let's get out of it. That is so disrespectful.

Speaker 1: 27:16

How do we work with people's troubled past and dreaded future, Because what they're telling you is, here's something that I really value and I lost it or I'm dreading of losing it Then we can really work with what is it that you're trying to protect losing it Then we can really work with what is it that you're trying to protect? And you get like this rich and respectful conversation when you show up like that in a conversation as a listener Because as a listener you are actually a co-author of their story- so here's a good example of that.

Speaker 2: 27:44

So for listeners, haysen and I work together a lot. We've thrown ideas around like many times, and she just attributed that she learned something from me. But I've always said I learned what she just said. I thought I learned that from her and what that demonstrates is how co-constructed our worlds are to me. So, for example, one of the things I thought that you taught me was that, let's say, in an arc of a conversation, somebody says something I curate what to pick up on. So I could, let's say, somebody talks about hey, I have a son who's this year's old, I have a daughter who does this and I have a third son who does this. Your next question could be of one of those three kids you choose which one to do Me? Since, becoming very intentional about the conversation, I would talk about a daughter, because everybody talks about a son, everybody asks about in the business world, right?

Speaker 1: 28:41

Interesting.

Speaker 2: 28:43

But what I'm saying is you make a choice of which door to open next, and I find that interesting and the other pieces that I often say and I got this. This is not my language again. I got this from a very prominent book on conversations, where conversation is the action, and I think people don't recognize that we create the future through the conversations we have. So in many ways, that's kind of what you're feeding into and saying okay, how do we create a different future by having a different conversation? And one of the questions is what would you like to be different Versus like what's your?

Speaker 1: 29:24

goal.

Speaker 2: 29:26

And that's a different. That's what I'm understanding from what you're saying.

Speaker 1: 29:29

And I think also, how do we actually reauthor our past? Even Because we can actually change our past by constructing it a certain way, like we can just turn the kaleidoscope and look at it a certain way and then you also rewrite your past as well. One of the things that I really appreciated about the conversational practice is that it really does construct things so you can reauthor your past, and that's very useful for some clients and people say, oh, now I have new perspective on how actually it went. But that's in my mind. We just constructed another way of looking at it, and that happens in how we language things. It's pretty cool, eh, it's magical.

Speaker 2: 30:25

It is. I want to change tacks a bit. So, heson, you are in the coaching world, you teach people how to coach, et cetera. What are two or three things that are really bugging you right now about the coaching world?

Speaker 1: 30:42

oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 30:44

Uh, just just two or three yeah, you can do more if you want, but I'm asking it.

Speaker 1: 30:59

Wow, that's a. That's a really big question. I would have said nagino zagino, research is missing, all the stuff. But now you know, what I'm actually thinking is that, um, I think, not only in coaching world, but in general, I see this hyper individualization as something that bugs me a lot.

Speaker 1: 31:29

And I think that's a huge issue on a societal level. A huge issue on a societal level. And also when I see right now, actually, what bugs me is when I see tapes of people who are doing coaching and so on, or so-called coaching, and it's actually hard to define and that's one of the problems. But I think I keep going back to this colonized practice and I see it everywhere now because now that's my lens, so I look at it's like, oh, you did it again. Or when somebody's making interpretations, where somebody's adding their words to what the client didn't even say, but clients are usually very polite so they will go with it. And it's like, oh man, you just did that again. And especially when we have this idea of going into this thing and either seeing the client as a problem or they have a problem that I can help with. So I think that actually bugs me a lot that those practices are still happening and taught and they are considered coaching. And then I think, systemically, right now, what is challenging in the field is now individual coaches are losing a lot of grounds because they're kind of like big box store type of things are happening where they gather all these people and they sell platforms, and I think that is a new trend that's been happening since about seven years ago and that concerns me quite a bit, because who's going to like I don't know where the quality control is.

Speaker 1: 33:07

And I think one of the things that I am also thinking about in terms of good people in business in light of this is my nephew asked me the other day when I just got back from Australia and he was reading this book on economy or something investing or something like that. That's so interesting. He's reading that book. Anyway, he actually we were having dinner and he asked me so, auntie, when you do your work, who do you help? So I'm like, oh, I think I'm helping this organization do this and this. And I was telling him all about it.

Speaker 1: 33:44

And then his next question was and who does it hurt? And then I was like just eat your vegetables, man. What are you talking about? I'm not hurting anybody, and that question is haunting me. Who does it hurt? And I think about that. When you do coaching a certain way, there are people that you are actually hurting. Or coaching business a certain way, there are people that you are actually hurting, not voluntarily, but as a byproduct of doing it a certain way. So I think about that when I see all these big platforms who are funded by different things, and then now the question is who does it hurt? Who gets hurt by the industry going this way? Right, what do you think?

Speaker 2: 34:34

I don't want to get into my thoughts on the coaching space, but in general I'm. One of the things that's bugging me is the fine line between coaching and therapy and I think there's a piece of that that I that to me where people who are doing quote unquote coaching modalities and that's really therapy and I think that's crossing a line.

Speaker 1: 35:03

But we changed the names.

Speaker 2: 35:07

Yeah, I think that's crossing a line. And then I think people who are taking a transactional approach to coaching rather than a transformational approach to coaching or a checkbox. So one of the things I get is I'll give you an example we coached somebody, paid us to coach one of their people who worked for them because they were underperforming and then, after the coaching process, this person decided they're going to take a whole new career and start a whole new thing and they left the company and blah blah. That client thought we did an awful job and that he would never hire us because we were terrible and I was like you. Reason you had disengagement with this guy is because he was not passionate about the work that he was doing and we helped him find that. To me, that was success.

Speaker 2: 36:03

That was an amazing outcome Right, but for the client.

Speaker 2: 36:11

My client was paying me to improve his performance and I think there's a they didn't get what they wanted, and they didn't get what they wanted and and and there were lots of other issues with that situation where that guy should have left a long time ago. But my point is that I think there are people who come in to fix things and say I'm coming into this situation and this is the outcome I want, and if this outcome doesn't happen, it's a failure and human beings just don't work like that, like any human system does not work like that, and I feel like that's one of the challenges that we have, not just in coaching, but just in the way we approach organizations. So that would be my kind of pet peeve.

Speaker 1: 36:56

Oh yeah, that whole misunderstanding of not even like who's a client actually, because you did meet and exceeded the clients, probably their wants.

Speaker 2: 37:07

Well, it's bigger than who's a client, it's more. This approach will never be linear.

Speaker 1: 37:15

This approach will never be linear, and if I, this approach will never be linear, exactly. I love that.

Speaker 2: 37:19

Yeah, so there's a quote that I love. Having to know the answers in advance is a terrible position from which to learn. I am Right, and that's what we do in organizations we want to know the answers in advance and we hire a consultant. We're like we want you to guarantee these five outcomes before we hire you all right, first of all, that's assuming that what you assume the problem is is correct yes and nine out of ten times is not you know, um, so I think, I think not.

Speaker 2: 37:57

So I think it's more the assumption of I can control the outcome, and not the willingness to evolve and emerge as things unfold, and not recognizing that sometimes a more powerful direction to go in is the emergent one, rather than predetermined, based on assumptions that can be completely false.

Speaker 1: 38:24

I think that actually works really well with ideas in adult education about development, where coaching fits in, where, if you already know the answer, or if you already know that you need to work on something that's not coaching, you need to send them to training exactly, or if you if you know that you need to improve on blah blah.

Speaker 1: 38:45

That's called supervision. So a lot of times people hide behind this, this coaching thing, and hoping that we will do their job. It's like, no, that's not coaching, because in out of the education, this idea of, um, unconscious incompetence or unconscious, uh, competence. The people don't know what they don't know, or people don't even know that they know, and that is the coaching space. But if people know what they don't know, then it's training space right.

Speaker 2: 39:14

But the other piece around that is that the idea that coaching is somehow remedial, so that you get a coach because you have a problem, versus like, hey, I get a coach. Like LeBron James has like 10, 11 coaches that he pays at the same time he's on the top of his game. So that idea to me, I think it's also problematic.

Speaker 1: 39:38

So yeah, kita, even at U of T actually in their HR practice they language this warning letter differently. In HR they call it coaching letter. I just cannot believe it. So when people get first warning for their performance, they didn't want to call it warning, so now they call it coaching letter.

Speaker 2: 39:59

But that's another thing. If it's a warning, it's a warning and warn people. This idea of, oh, we don't want to be telling the truth, we want to frame it as coaching, when it's really a warning letter. That hey, if you continue this behavior, you're going to be fired.

Speaker 2: 40:14

That's what I'd say but then you couch it in a euphemism language like coaching. That means the communication is not clear and if the person gets three coaching lesson letters on any force, when you fire them and it's a surprise, that's not their fault. It's because you didn't tell them that it was a warning.

Speaker 1: 40:31

This is there's a tsunami coming, so here's a coaching number one beep, beep, it's like what yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2: 40:42

So, hey, son, any, what are? What are your favorite ideas at the moment that you're exploring that you think, hey, you know what, this is an exciting direction. I think my work is heading.

Speaker 1: 40:55

Oh, my goodness, really you want to go there. Oh, there are so many actually, as you know, as you know me because I think I don't know how many people actually know this that, kita, you helped me through, like you coached me through my one of my hardest times, right. So I don't know how many people know this, but I think I have many, many ideas and one of the things that actually you taught me, I still do that actually to this day. You can see my calendar. You'll be so proud, actually, kita, because one of the key things that you asked me was I had, when I came to you, I had, I think, 18 buckets. Remember that I had like I do this, I do this, I do this, and then it was more like 28.

Speaker 2: 41:46

It was crazy.

Speaker 1: 41:47

It was a lot. It was actually was more than that. I still have the PowerPoint, so I had so many ideas that I had to make powerpoints out of it and it was really clear when you first asked me what do you want to like, what do I want to see myself do? Like three things like every day. And then I'm like I mentioned three things. That was not a one, not not you, not even like in the thing. It was like three smallest thing that I thought it was emerging thing, one of them being I want to be writing because I want to write a book. Remember that, kita, this is like yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:27

I know.

Speaker 1: 42:28

And then the second thing was I want to do research. I actually love doing research, I want to do research. And the third thing is I want to do keynotes and speaking engagements and all those things. Those three things at the time were the smallest portfolio. It was more like a sort of like dream, doing a regular, this regular, this regular, this. And I was reflecting on that and I am now publicly giving you this appreciation, because those are the three things that I do now mainly yeah and I actually wonder the other day, how, how did this happen?

Speaker 1: 43:04

how did it happen? Of course it happened because we had a conversation, many conversations, about that, and one of the first things that you asked me was well, if those three things are what you want to do, do you have room in your calendar to allow for that to happen? And I'm like I have no time for this. Kita, and I remember showing you my calendar was full of other things, other busy things, and one of the early things that you said was you have to carve out that time. So that's what I did and I even actually had my staff members to honor that and they actually sort of they had this guardrails around so that they don't book appointments during that time when I set aside for writing, and first three months I set aside as writing but I did like emails and other things, but then finally I got to honor my commitment and those three things are now my reality. So my next exciting thing obviously is research. So I am right now doing this research with Jonathan Passmore that we're just wrapping up the first analysis of.

Speaker 1: 44:13

And we are comparing six different modalities of coaching, nice and using dialogic orientation quadrant as a tool, because many people think dialogic orientation quadrant is a solution-focused model. It's not. It's a heuristic of interaction, so you can use it for any and every conversational sort of situation that you can just put it on, and it's a lens, it's a kaleidoscope. So we're doing that research right now, analyzing different modalities, and what do we find? And I think it's a cliffhanger what do we find? And we found something. So that's what's really exciting. So next, I guess what's exciting for me is rewriting the entire industry of coaching and how we define it, how we define good coaching, and I think that's what's next within the next couple of years. And what does that mean for me? Is I carved out? Not, I am going to, but I carved out time to actually do that research every single day? And I wish I can actually show you my calendar. I still have those three things like really locked off in my calendar.

Speaker 2: 45:30

It's yeah, it's the small things that make a big difference. Hey Sen, I want to thank you for a great conversation today. First of all, where can people find your work and learn more about you? And, first of all, everybody pick up hey Sun's book Coaching A to Z. It's a phenomenal book, I think one of the best coaching books that is out there, and you've gotten a couple of awards recently, I think.

Speaker 1: 45:53

Yeah, I'm really kind of humbled by it. But yeah, this book got me shortlisted as one of the most influential thinkers in the world. It's like, okay, thanks, but it was really like what? Are you sure you got the right person? So I think I am so appreciative that people appreciate the work, because this book turned out to be more than just a coaching book for me. So I feel shy saying this, but this has become one of my favorite books Weird, eh. So.

Speaker 1: 46:31

I also encourage people to, if you can, please buy locally. Your local bookstores will carry it for you and if you order through them, it takes a few more days to get, but it will get there rather than ship it next day. So I highly, highly encourage you to do that if you can. Otherwise it's in all the book. You know big like online stores and so on, but if you go to coachinga2zcom and then there is a link to your local bookstore, so I highly recommend that people do that.

Speaker 2: 47:04

Any final thoughts before we head out, Hesan?

Speaker 1: 47:06

Kita, I owe you this appreciation Really and I'm actually waiting for your book to arrive tomorrow Because I actually ordered it through the bookstore. But anyway, and really congratulations, because your work influenced me like tangibly. This way I am doing what I am doing because I worked with you, so I owe you this huge public appreciation. So I wanted to say that.

Speaker 2: 47:43

So so there's a when you read the book, there's a surprise in that book for you. I think there'll be a chapter that you're quite surprised by. But yes, All right listeners, thank you for joining us on yet another episode of Conversations with Keita Deming. Join me next time, where I'll be interviewing yet another thought leader, where we will explore those two questions how do we become better people in business and how do we become better business people? Did we?

Speaker 1: 48:10

do the second question?

Speaker 2: 48:11

Keita no, we did not. We did not. We did not. That's fine. Join us next time where we explore those two questions, and I'll be with another Thought Leader guest. Author. Looking forward to you joining me on this journey. Have a wonderful rest of the day. Bye. Thank you for listening to Conversations with Keita Deming. Over the years, I've learned that few things will impact or improve your life more than improving your strategies and having better conversations with the people you wish to serve. If you like today's guest and the idea is shared, please like, follow and provide a review. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can also visit my website, sign up for my newsletter and learn about the release of my upcoming book. To sign up for my newsletter and learn about the release of my upcoming book and I look forward to the next episode where we'll be in conversation with someone who will help you become a better business person and a better person in business. See you next time.