Body Image

Julia was body-shamed by a family friend, and the experience has stuck with her. 

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Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Have you ever been friends with a contrarian? What I mean by contrarian is someone who automatically, reflexively, maybe compulsively, takes the other side of whatever claim you just made.

This isn't the same as disagreeing with someone on this or that issue. It's a process. And a long one at that. They take the other side at nearly every point. It doesn't matter what the claim is. You say you like deep dish pizza and you know what they're going to say. You say you're really starting to fall for someone and you know what they're going to say.

You say you don't like the term self care and you can feel the yeah, but coming. Consistency is also not something that matters to the contrarian. They'll attack the pharmaceutical industry one week and defend them the next. I used to seek out people who were argumentative because they could be fun, [00:01:00] knowledgeable, and interesting.

More and more, I feel a little differently. Contrarianism feels like know it all ing and conversational one upping. I'm Michael Lee. Professor of communication and director of the civility initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest on when we disagree is Julia from upstate South Carolina. Julia, tell us an argument story.

Julia: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Um, this story happened about two years ago. And it's when I got into an argument with a man about 40 years older than me. So, um, as a little bit of a background, I come from a very athletic family. I have two younger brothers, and my dad was a professional cyclist as his career.

So, he always pushed all three of us to be athletic and to pursue a sport. So, I grew up playing tennis as my main sport. Played all throughout middle school and high school. And, It was fun and super competitive until I reached high school, essentially. Um, yeah, so once I reached high school, I mostly just played on the team [00:02:00] because it was fun with my friends and it was just like the adrenaline of playing on a team.

And then as soon as the season ended my senior year, I don't think I've touched a racket since then. Full transparency. So after that, I needed to find a new sport. I was like, I have to keep myself busy. So I got into running. I hate running. Like, I don't understand how people run. Honestly, like, it's so hard.

Like, what do you think about? What kind of music am I supposed to listen to? Like, just got boring. And one of my really, really good friends, her name is Emily. She is so fit, like a bodybuilder. She goes, she lives at the gym, like six to seven days a week, and she loves it. Like, she's so strong. And I think she's so admirable too.

So she invited me to go to the gym with her one day, and I was obsessed ever since then. Um, I was, I started out working with her because gyms are really intimidating. Like, I walk in and I don't know where I'm going. I don't know what weights do what. There's a bunch of, like, big, strong men around me. Like, I was scared.

So, I would only go with my friend Emily. Eventually, I got better and I started going by myself. [00:03:00] And, yeah, that's essentially where this argument stems from. It's kind of around, like, a woman stereotype weightlifting. So this was about two years ago, summertime, probably July. I was at the lake with my family, and they had a bunch of their extended friends there too.

So, one of my dad's somewhat close friends, his name is Max. Max is a little bit controversial. He always has been. Honestly, like, I think everybody has, friends of their parents that they don't really like. Max is one of those for me. And anyways, everybody's on the boat and I get on the boat and I take off my like cover up, which was like a big t shirt.

And then Max just stemmed off and he was like, Oh my gosh, Julia, if you're starting to look like a man, you better stop lifting weights. Okay. And like me being like the timid, like 17 year old girl, I was so sad. I was like, Oh my gosh, I was looking around. I was embarrassed. Um, and yeah, it's not so much like the comet himself made me feel like insecure.

I was more so just embarrassed. I was like, wait, maybe [00:04:00] he's right. Cause all the other girls in the boat had like a different type of like leaner body. And like my shoulders were a little bit bigger. Like it wasn't like shocking or anything. Like, but I guess like to him, he was surprised. So, me being offended, I didn't say anything back because I'm shy.

I just kind of like stopped, like stood back, and I looked around to see if anybody heard. And then he clapped back and said something around the lines of, Women shouldn't be in the weight room, it's unattractive and unnecessary. They should just stick to yoga or Pilates. And at that point, like, I looked at my dad and I was like, Are you serious?

And my dad, like, I'm his only daughter, like, he's very protective. And then he just like quickly, like, glanced at his friend, like, told him, basically, Shut up. Yeah, and then basically that's pretty much it and I mean, it's not the biggest deal in the world I didn't clap back and say anything But it definitely did like strike down my confidence for a little bit and I stopped going to the gym for a while I literally like took his advice.

I was like, I'm just gonna start running again. Like maybe he's right Maybe I'm getting too bulky But like no and like [00:05:00] obviously every teenage girl struggles with like body image and like even eating And when I was in the gym lifting weights, I had never been, I had never had a healthier relationship with food, you know, like I was prioritizing carbs and proteins, like good filling up, like energizing foods while I was lifting weights because I knew that it was good for me, I knew that it was going to help me, like, the next day, like, I think nutrition is so interesting, I think it's something that like, People should like learn and prioritize but like yeah, like that came from being in the gym and lifting weights Just started super healthy habits for me And then him saying that made me want to like cut down on eating again start a bunch of cardio So that's just like kind of like sucked.

But anyways Fast forward to now, I'm back in the gym, eating whatever I want, and happy, but this is just like something that I think about every so often. 

Michael Lee: So, how often do you hear this guy's voice? And what strikes me about your story that's so interesting and tragic on multiple levels is the way that your behavior is being sanctioned or discriminated [00:06:00] against and judged by somebody who doesn't know you who's 40 or 50 years your senior according to whatever sexist lens he uses to view the world.

And then I can think of instances in lots of people's lives in which a stray comment A stray judgy comment, frankly, from a relative stranger, sticks in their head as they do the thing that they're growing to love. And they can't help but hear the Max's, in their life, their voice, this Max's voice, saying, You know, you shouldn't really be doing that.

Should you really be doing that? Just second, constant second guessing. So it sounds like it took you some time to kind of get Max's voice. out of your head when you were at the gym? 

Julia: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I still think about it maybe two to three times a week. Just because like, obviously, like, I think it's a very common universal experience.

People do pay attention to what they look like and like how their bodies are. So sometimes when I'm in the gym and like I'm lifting really heavy, I'm like, Oh my goodness, am I getting am I going to start getting too big? Just like and then I'm like, No, what? Because I like, I have, [00:07:00] I follow so many girls and influencers on Instagram or other social media platforms that are like big, strong, beautiful women and I aspire to be like that, like I love how they look.

I think that all bodies are beautiful, of course, um, but for me, like I want to look strong. And like when I like compare my own ideas to what has been said to me, I'm like, this just doesn't make any sense. Like it's my body. I can work out and do however I want to do with it, you know? 

Michael Lee: Yeah, and I want to use your story to talk about the broader cultural debate, the argument we were having in the evolution of beauty standards for men and women, of course.

On the boat that day though, this kind of smaller version of that cultural argument, is you Relatively silent, it sounds like him making two judgmental comments, your dad shooting a look, and then that was that. Is that, that's the extent of the quote unquote exchange that y'all had? 

Julia: And for me, like, after that even, I got off the boat and I came up to my mom and I was like, Oh my gosh, mom, did you hear what Max said to me on the boat?

Like, I was so upset about [00:08:00] it. And like, I feel like in my head, like, I can come up with, like, fast responses so fast. After the argument has happened. Like, as soon as he said that to me, I was like, uh, blank face, no words came out. Literally, I think I just said the word, uh, when he said that. That's right. And then like two hours later, I was coming back with so many, like, responses and reasons as to why he can't tell me what to do.

That's why I'm happy, but like, again. 

Michael Lee: I'm going to butcher this because I'm not a French speaker, but I believe in French, it's the L'esprit d'escalier, which is the spirit of the escalator. And the metaphor is it's only on the escalator leaving the argument that you think of the right thing that you should have said in that moment.

But I know exactly what it is that you're talking about. And so then this is, uh, let's say 55, 60 year old man making a comment about A 17 year old, is that right? 

Julia: Yes, sir. 

Michael Lee: Right. Okay. Just to set the scene that we're working with. And so then how do you relate to the broader cultural debate about evolving beauty standards for women, the role of strength, the role of [00:09:00] weightlifting, and these influencers that you follow?

Julia: I just think that it's just like, it's so broad in general. I feel like it's hard to answer that question. I think everybody has different goals. Like I know I have one of my best friends is. A runner again, she loves it. She runs all the time all the girls that she follows and all the influencers She aspires to be like our runners there.

They run marathons. They do triathlons like all of that I'm, just not like that. Like personally, I don't bike. I don't run. I don't swim not really my cup of tea But I don't know. I just I also think it's so interesting because my little brother, you know, he's a boy I feel like there's like a stereotype that men should be big and strong like no my brother is like super You Um, strict about like what he eats because he wants to be a cyclist one day too.

And obviously there's a different like body composition that isn't required for cycling. Um, so I don't know. I just think that there's so many different aspects to the question that you asked me. Like what is your goal? What do you want? What makes you happy? What makes you feel good? Honestly, like going on like a walk like a couple times [00:10:00] a week is also really good for you.

I just think exercise in general is good. In general, but like beauty standard wise, like I have no idea how to answer that question. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, what is fascinating? It seems like there is very much an evolution in terms of weightlifting And the old saw the stereotypes that you're talking about Of course is men should be big and strong lifting as much lifting as heavy as possible Women should be doing the opposite and that is what makes us each beautiful according to our separate very distinct genders This is a very different situation that we're working with.

And so this older guy, Max on the boat, seemed like he was enforcing an older way of thinking about that. And you and many others are part of a forefront of people who are trying to change the culture's mind and change your own mind, but still have to fight the literal Max's of the world, as well as the Max's in all of our heads in the world, saying you're going against an old stereotype and who are you to step outside of your lane?

That's what I meant when I was asking about how do you relate to this? 

Julia: I mean, Yes, with weightlifting too, but it also goes through a lot of other things, like tattoos even. I have two tattoos, and they're very, [00:11:00] they're very small, but I think that they're pretty and they're meaningful to me. And I even get criticism for getting those tattoos because it's not feminine, it's not ladylike, and it's just like, it just reminds me of like, what Mac said to me on the boat two years ago, and it's like, yes it is, like, I'm a woman, and like, I think it's feminine, I think it's ladylike, and I think it's pretty, like, I want it, and it's my body.

So I feel like it's just like, It's something that you're always gonna hear, even for men too. Like no matter what, like you're gonna get critic, you're gonna get criticized for what you do to your own body, what you do with your own life. And at the end of the day, like it just really doesn't matter, 

Michael Lee: you know?

Let's talk about this masculinity and femininity, the way that it relates to arguments too. Mm-Hmm. because. Just as there is this kind of stereotypical masculine present physical presentation of being big strong the so called strong silent type, right? And then the opposite is relatively stereotypical for many women there can also be as it relates to argument and the way that we exchange our Ideas the way that we disagree with one another can differ according to stereotypes related to gender [00:12:00] men Of course allowed to be saying being verbose Um, being aggressive, argumentatively, and then the same being a double standard if it's applied to women.

Mm-Hmm. . And so when you are in an argument with somebody, irrespective of the boat. Mm-Hmm. . When you're in an argument with somebody, characterize yourself as an arguer. 

Julia: For my viewpoint, you're saying? Yeah. 

Michael Lee: Are you verbose? Are you aggressive for your point? Do you seek out arguments? Do you avoid arguments?

Julia: I honestly avoid arguments. But I weirdly kind of enjoy it. Sometimes like I'll sit down with my friends. We'll be like what controversial topic can we talk about today? It's just like fun. Like I but I would never argue about something that I don't like I'm not expert on you know, like other than like my own opinions with like obviously what we're talking about today like with my irksome argument, but Yeah, I usually do completely avoid arguments.

I'm not a very confrontational person. If you say something disrespectful to me, I'll probably just like, [00:13:00] I'll either brush it off or I'll just be like, don't, don't say that to me again. Like, I don't like how you said that, but I'm not going to like go on a full tangent and yell at anybody. 

Michael Lee: But if you, amongst your friend group, a group of people you feel very safe with, that is a space in which you can mix it up and feel some joy in the exchange of ideas.

So separate those two for me if you can. So I, a stranger, say something rude to you and you either slough it off or just dismiss me quickly but don't get into it with me. Versus really liking the back and forth, even an extended back and forth, with friends. What's the difference? I 

Julia: feel like the difference is just debate.

I love debating with people. I think that it's fun and again, what you said, exchanging ideas and opinions with like people I feel safe with, like, obviously, like people can get offended very easily and like, I would never want to offend anybody, but I know with like with my friends and stuff, we're able to openly talk about our ideas and opinions on stuff.

And like learn from each other or like be like, I don't really know if [00:14:00] that's right, um, in a safe, non judgmental environment. But if I were to just get into a small, like, confrontational argument with a stranger, it would be like, it's not a big deal, like, I'm probably never gonna see you again. Or like, if I do, like, it's, again, like, neither of us have huge impacts on each other, so I wouldn't go all the way to, you know.

Michael Lee: And I hear you making a subtle distinction between an argument and a debate. In a debate, the relationship is not on the line with you and your friends because you know you're safe from having to leave one another's lives or being iced out. With a stranger, not necessarily the case. And also in a debate, Ideally, you're just exchanging ideas and the phrase, the force of the better argument can win the day.

And maybe there's others there who are listening, who can judge as to who's doing a better job of debating whether it's an argument, there can be insults, ad hominem attacks, distractions, red herrings, anger, maybe perhaps more emotional. And the relationship could [00:15:00] be on the line as well. 

Julia: Absolutely. 

Michael Lee: Yeah.

Thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you 

Julia: so much for having me. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host, Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagreeatgmail. com.