Stacy
Hi Writer, Welcome back to another episode of the Write It Scared podcast today. I have an amazing interview to share with you, and I think you're going to walk away inspired and more determined than ever to stick with it and finish your books. Today, I'm interviewing Joshua Moehling, the author of the Ben Packard mysteries, his debut novel. And There He Kept Her was a 2023 Lammy award nominee for best mystery in June of 2020 both Apple and Amazon editors selected it as the best mystery. In January of 2023, it was the Barnes and Noble monthly pick. His second book Where the Dead Sleep has been reviewed by the New York Times and the Associated Press. It was also named a 2024 Lammy Award nominee for best mystery. Where the Dead Sleep was Target’s January 2020 book club selection and received high praise from William Kent Krueger, who says “With Where the Dead Sleep. Joshua Moehling solidifies his place as one of the best new voices in the mystery genre.” Josh grew up as an army brat and moved all over the U S and Germany. After attending college, he moved to Minneapolis and. began a career in the medical device industry.
Stacy
Hi, Josh. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I'm so excited to have you here. I'm a big fan, as, as you know, because we talked for a few minutes before and I had my chance to like fangirl out.
I read your comments and the acknowledgments in your first novel, And There He Kept Her. I was just blown away by how honest you were about your journey. I wanted to bring you on the show because a big part of this show is dedicated to telling the truth about why writing a novel is so hard and also, you know, helping writers find the voices and the messages that they need to hear to keep going.
So with that, would you please share more with our listeners about your journey to becoming a writer?
Josh
Yeah first of all, thank you, Stacey, for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be here. I've been looking forward to our conversation for a while now. So yeah I have wanted to be a writer since I was a little kid.
It's, I think it's kind of a weird dream for a child to want to grow up and be a writer, but that is what it always was for me because When I learned how to read after that point, all that I was interested in was books. I just wanted to read nonstop every waking moment of the day. I was not an outdoor child.
I did not want to throw a ball or play sports or do any of that stuff. I just wanted to go to the library and get new books every single day. And at a certain point I became aware that these books were written by people and then a little bit later I became aware that writing was actually a job that people could do.
And I mentioned in those acknowledgments that my very, the first person I recognized as a writer was Stephen King, and this was in the, probably the early 80s when he was maybe only eight or ten novels into his career, but he was already a huge phenomenon because of the books and the movies. And I was like, wow. This is what I want to do. I want to be Stephen King when I grow up.
Stacy
Maybe he'll listen to this someday, and he'll just smile. Right? That's awesome. Yeah, I also love Stephen King. So you wanted to be Stephen King when you grew up, and then what happened? Because life happens, right?
Josh
Yeah. So I was an English major in college. I'm not sure that was the wisest choice as far as future career prospects. But again, all I could think about was reading and writing. Those were, that's what I love to do. And so I was like, well, I'm going to be an English major. I, after I graduated,, a couple of years later, I went to Mankato, the University of Minnesota, Mankato.
I started to get an MFA in creative writing and that didn't quite work out. I dropped out about halfway through the program and then after that, there was kind of a fallow period where I didn't write anything for years. And this, this kind of this dream of being a writer really kind of fell by the wayside while I was in my mid-twenties, early thirties, trying to get a job, pay the bills, screw around, you know, like you said, life gets in the way, and those were kind of my priorities in my,
late twenties and early thirties. But eventually, you know, that question was just kind of kept nagging me. It's like, you've always wanted to be a writer. Are you going to do this or not? If you are, you actually have to sit down and write something because I had absolutely nothing to show for myself at that point.
Stacy
When was that? When did you actually sit down and start to become a little more dedicated?
Josh
I think it was probably in my mid-thirties. And to that point, I'd only written short stories and a very small number of short stories. And the idea of writing a novel just seemed impossible to me. Like I'll write a novel, like I'll climb out Everest.
I don't know how to do it. It's impossible. But then I kind of, I said, well, I think I might have an idea for a book. So I'm just going to just sit down and just start writing and see what happens. And eventually I had five pages and then I had 10 and then I had 50 and then I had a hundred.
It seemed like I was on my way to writing a novel, but the real turning point for me was taking a class at the Loft here in Minneapolis called Working on Your Novel with Mary Gardner. In that class, I found the encouragement that I needed to keep going, and that was a real turning point for me.
Stacy
Yeah, we can't, we can't do this alone. Even though it seems like, you know, that's what writers do, we write alone, but it really, it's the, it's the people that surround us that Help us keep going after, you know when we want to go find a dumpster and a match. So you started writing and you went to the loft and then how did it work out with the, with the first novel? Where did that one go?
Josh
Yeah, right in the drawer. But eventually I had, yeah, I took that class with Mary. And she just encouraged me to keep going, and I wrote this whole entire novel, and it was pretty bad.
It probably took me five years to write that book. I was a very slow writer, you know, and I still had other stuff going on, so it took as long as it took. I think I sent it out to a few agents. I don't even know what I was thinking, but it was a bad book, and I don't think any of them responded, so it just kind of went in the drawer.
But after that, now I knew that I could write a novel. Now I knew that writing a novel is not as impossible as climbing Mount Everest. And that's what I took away from that first book. It can be heartbreaking to reach that point where you, after you've spent so much time and energy on this thing, to have to put it in a drawer and start over.
I think that's where a lot of people lose hope and give up. That's the moment when you've got to find your reasons for doing this. It can't be the end rewards. It can't be external validation. It's got to be what is it within you that keeps you coming to the chair and putting the words down.
And it was kind of like a crucible for me in that moment. It's like, am I really going to put all this time and effort into a drawer and walk away from it and start over again? And it was like, yeah, I am. Cause that's my only option at this point. It's either that or quit.
And I wasn't ready to quit.
Stacy
And that reason is going to be different. For everybody, I think. So what, what do you feel like yours is? Your why?
Josh
I think it's a couple things. Like I said, this has always been the dream.
It's like, I want to one day look on the shelf and see a book with my name on it. And I'm going to put it right on the shelf next to Stephen King. And that was really all I wanted. I didn't care how many copies I sold.
Stacy
I think you've accomplished that when I'm looking back there behind you.
Josh
I wanted to get to a point where I wrote something good enough that somebody wanted to publish. And so I could look on a shelf and say, You did what you set out to do. You had a dream and you did it. And it was a very small dream. But that's, that is one of the things that kept me going. And then I think also, I just don't know how not to write at this point in my life.
It's almost like a compulsion. And I think even if I hadn't gotten an agent, if I hadn't got a book deal, if I was still in the trenches trying to get to that point, I'd still be writing. Cause. I love it. It's weird to say I love it because I don't love it, but I have to do it.
Stacy
Maybe it was Ann Dillard or something who said, I, I hate writing.I love having written.
Josh
I was going to say that. Yeah.Absolutely. That's so true.
Stacy
But I feel you. I, some days I come to the page and it's just like nails on a chalkboard. It's like my, I'm, ah, so painful and nothing happens. But, but it's like a million of those moments of nothing happens, and that has turned into 000 words.
Josh
Absolutely.
Stacy
Right? So when I'm there in the moment, it's like, I can't see the progress but I just stick with it and it will happen.
Absolutely.
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I didn't send you this question. So if you don't like it, we can delete it, but what was the query process like for you with and there he kept her.
So after that first novel that I, But anyway, I wrote a second novel, and it was set in Sandy Lake, where the two books that I published are set and I won't get into the plot, it's not important, but it was a, it was kind of a thriller, and again, I spent years writing this book, it probably took me another five years to get a book ready to query, and I sent that book out to probably 30 or 40 agents and three or four of them came back and requested the full manuscript and all of them said, this is a pretty good book, but it doesn't work.
And that was it.
Stacy
That's so heartbreaking.
Josh
Yeah. And at that point, like I said, it took me probably five years to get to that point. And at that point I was just done with that book. I was like, I don't know how to fix it. And I don't have another major rewrite of this book in me.
And so again, I came to that moment where I was like, am I really going to put this book in the drawer and start over on something else? And it was like, yeah, I'm going to. But one of those agents, one of those three or four agents said. I like this book. It doesn't work. I want to see what you write next.
Stacy
Nice.
Josh
And I said, all right, I will remember this. You're going to regret it because I'm going to come back to you with whatever that happens to be. And I wrote another book set in Sandy Lake with Ben Packard. And it's probably again, another three or four years went by until I had a book ready to query.
And I think I queried probably about 30 or 40 agents again with him there. I kept her. But I also went directly to that agent who said, I want to see what you write next. And I said, Hey Barbara, four years ago you said you wanted to see what I wrote next. I went right to her personal email, not her query tracker, and sent her the first five pages or whatever it was that she wanted.
And she got back to me and she's like, I remember you, I remember that last book. Sent me the whole thing. And she ended up becoming my agent.
Stacy
That's amazing. Well done. Well done with the perseverance and the grit, so these stories are mysteries and thrillers. So what draws you to write in that world?
Josh
I think I kind of fell backwards into it almost. Like I said, I thought I was going to be Stephen King when I grew up. I was going to write horror novels, but then I just, I don't read as much horror anymore. And I haven't had an idea for a horror novel and the book I wrote before and there he kept her.
I guess we will get into the pot of it a little bit. The main character, I was thinking of Stephen King and how he lives in a small town in Maine. So I came up with this character like Stephen King, who lives in a small town in Minnesota. And he gets into a plane, you know, it has a private plane and he gets into a plane crash and he's been working on this long series, like the dark tower.
And everybody's waiting for that final book in the series. And after he dies in the plane crash, then the hunt is on for the manuscript for this last book. And he had a handyman working for him who had a traumatic brain injury. And then there's this crazed fan who wants to get the manuscript for himself and so that nobody else will ever be able to read it.
And. It was kind of a thriller, I guess. And so I just kind of followed my personal interests and like in Stephen King and crazy book collectors and life in a small town, and that's kind of, that was kind of the book that was the book that I wrote before in there. He kept her. And then, like I said, it didn't work.
But in that book, there was a, the two main characters, I have a conversation and they're talking about being interviewed by the sheriff's deputy. And they have this conversation about whether or not they think the sheriff's deputy is gay or not. And the deputy is just kind of a butt of a joke between these two guys, and then they move on.
He didn't have a name. He didn't have any role in that book.The sheriff's deputy. I don't think so. But again, but yeah, after the agents told me this is a good book, but it doesn't work, I was like, well, what am I going to write next? And I was kind of stuck on this idea of, A sheriff's deputy in a small town in rural Minnesota, and what that would be like, and where he came from, and what his life was like, like, that's, that's what I'm going to write about next.
And so I kind of plucked that guy out of that book and wrote in there, he kept her. To kind of answer all those questions.
Stacy
Yeah. And the other, and the other side of it, and we, I don't want to do any spoilers or just go read the book people. It's really good. And my mother in law loves it.
And she's, she is such a critic. She will rip a book apart. So literally she had nothing. She had nothing but praise to say. Oh, seriously. . So there's a dark, there's a really dark side to this. And I just am curious about how you get in the head of someone like your antagonist.
And I'll just share that his name is Emmett, but I won't say anything more than that.
Josh
Yeah, Emmett was interesting to write. And there he kept her, you know, there's two kind of, there are two points of view and then there he kept her, you're, you're following Packard along the investigation because he's got to be convinced that these kids are missing and that they haven't just, you know, Run away and headed to Minneapolis for the weekend.
And then these, the other point of view is from Emmett and these kids broke into his house and he ends up with this girl, 16-year-old teenage girl locked in the room in his basement. I think the key to writing Emmett was figuring out who he was. Besides a kidnapper and a murderer and a rapist. Because in this book, we won't get really into the plot, but Emmett's an old man in this book and he's done terrible things 20, 30 years ago, and he never got caught.
And what I was interested in is what would happen if a man like that who did these terrible things and never got caught, what happens when they get old and isolated and in poor health. And what happens when things change and they become the victim.
Stacy
That was such a cool twist on a trope of a bad guy and I love what you said. And I, I, when I work with writers, I often, you know, that are working in these kind of books, it's like, okay. You know, who are these people? I mean, they have lives long lives that they have lived before with the moment we meet them on page one.
And so in that is where you find their motivations, their twisted logic, the reason why they are willing to stay this course, even though, you know, it, leads to Atrocities and devastation, right? So I, I think that's pretty cool. All right. A big part of this podcast is dedicated to telling the truth about why writing can be so hard and exposing those unhelpful internal narratives.
And I think you've, you've nailed that. Like it's hard. It takes a long time and you got to be willing to just stick with it and, come up to that, moment every time. You know, when something doesn't work, are you going to keep going or you're not? So, and I think the more that we, the more honest we get about how long this really takes and how difficult it is You know, the more people will stay in it.
They won't think that, Oh, I'm no good. You know, I'm no good. I'm going to quit. I think it'll help normalize it. And when we normalize things like that, it helps us work through doubts. So, thank you so much for sharing all of that and being so honest about it. So, process-wise, I did want to ask you because the first published novel took a long time, right?But then you got a book contract. And that must have changed things.
Josh
Yes.
Stacy
So tell us a little bit about that experience.
Yeah, I always say you have your whole entire life to write your first novel and then you have about a year to write the second one. I was a pantser for the first novel.I did not know where I was going chapter to chapter, and that's what I think contributed to why it took so long to write it, and also why it took so many revisions. We can talk in it for an hour about how many revisions that book had to go through and then, I kind of had a long runway, but I think I sold the book. And then it was a year and a half until it even hit the shelf. And so, In that year and a half, I wrote the second book I think I turned in the manuscript just as the first one was coming out, and then, so then the second book came out a year after that.
And for Where the Dead Sleep, I had to plot that book. I was like, if I'm going to turn this around in the time necessary, I need to know where I'm going before I even start. because I have a full-time day job and interests outside of writing and other things to do.
So, I totally switched gears in Where the Dead Sleep. I was like, okay, this is the crime. I mean, I know who the killer is before I start writing. I spent about three months, figuring out characters and motivations and writing backstory that I knew wasn't even going to make it in the book, but stuff that I needed to know. And then it took me about nine months to write a first draft to that second book.
Stacy
That's a big change in process. Do you like it? Do you like knowing rather than panting?
Josh
I do, I think people have this conception that when you outline or when you, when you plot, there's no room for. Creativity and that's 100 percent not true. I, one of my favorite things about writing is as I'm writing, hitting these moments where even if I have a kind of a scene outline or a beat sheet, there's still all these opportunities for things to pop up that I did not plan for.
There's still a million decisions that you have to make along the way and those million decisions is where the magic happens, even when you are plotting.
Stacy
So you work full time you got other things going on besides writing. So how do you find the time to come to the page?How do you make it work?
Josh
You have to make the time and it has to be a priority. Even with everything else you have going on. I live a very charmed life. I have a good day job. I work from home. My partner has a good job. We don't have any kids. We don't have a lot of commitments or things like that. So we have a lot of time to do exactly what we want to do.
So we have absolutely no excuse not to be pursuing our passions and dreams and I realize how fortunate I am to be in that position because a lot of other people are not in that position and it's a real struggle for them to find the time or make the time. So for us, it's like you work all day, we have dinner, and then, you know, we turn off the TV and I go in my office and I write from about 7:30 until nine or.8 to 9 30 or whatever happens to be. My partner is a painter, and he plays guitar. So we just kind of, you know, we call it hobby time. I now call it my second job. We're lucky to be where we are, and we're lucky to have the time that we have to dedicate to it.
And so at that point then it's really on you to bring your butt to the chair and make it a priority.
Stacy
And, you know, I think writing begets writing, it becomes like an impulse or an instinct to come to the chair after a while, you know, like I get up every day at four, four 30, because my daughter is eight and she is also an early riser.
And I'm just trying to get an hour in before she wakes up. And some days that plays playing lands. And some days it does not. But that's the first thing I want to do. Yeah. You know, when I'm in it is I want to open my laptop and I want to make some words. . Are
Josh
You writing early in the morning?
Stacy
Yeah. Yeah. I can't write at night because if I try, like, then I can't sleep. Cause my brain is just full of like, well, what about this? I could do this. What about this? I could do that. I don't know how you sleep. Your brain doesn't do that to you.
Josh
A lot of times, right. The last thing I'm thinking about before I fall asleep is the book.
And a lot of times that was. Kind of moments when you're relaxed and you're lying there. And yeah, sometimes it's like a whole lot of activity in your brain when you don't want it. But a lot of times also, it's just kind of quiet thinking time and a lot of times I can work out a problem right before I fall asleep.
Stacy
I use my evening time. Like I, I read, that's when I read is I, I vanish from the living room. My husband, he stays out there and I go, that's, I read and Yeah, it's kind of like when I try to absorb craft and what I can and just enjoy stories and stuff, because that's where I love to live.
Josh
Yeah, the other thing you have to prioritize when you're a writer is the reading type, too, because, in my opinion, there's no writing without reading.
Stacy
Yeah, Stephen King said that. He's like, if you're not a reader, you don't have the tools to be a writer, you know, I, and I 100 percent agree.
And I don't think you have to read a shit ton all the time, but you do have to pay attention. You do have to slow down and analyze sometimes instead of just inhaling it all. Stop and think about it. Like, why does this work?
Josh
Yeah, read as a writer, right? Yeah.
Stacy
And that's, and that is a practice and a skill. And sometimes you got to, I have to intentionally turn that off because I'm so used to trying to analyze and pick things apart. But sometimes when I get into a really good book, like yours, I, yeah, do not analyze it at all. Not the first time I read it anyway.
All right. So couple more questions. When you look back on your writing life and you know, you've been at this a long time I think you said 15 years, if not a little bit more, right? Yeah. What did self doubt look like for you then when you first started and through those first few years?
Josh
Like I was saying early on, in the beginning, it seemed impossible. It seemed like writing a novel, I'll never be able to do it. It's impossible. I don't know what I'm doing. This book sucks. I'm an idiot. Why are you wasting your time? You know, you just kind of beat yourself up in every kind of way imaginable.
Stacy
It's this weird rollercoaster between pride of like, oh shit.
Josh
Yeah. I'm terrible. Yeah. And there's, like you said, there's also times where you look and you think, Oh my God, I'm a genius. Look at this amazing thing that I'm writing. And then you come back the next day and it looks like crap. Yeah. And you just, it's, you just got to ride the rollercoaster to the end. And I'm writing the fourth Ben Packard novel now, and I have two books in the trunk, so I have six novels. I have five novels under my belt, and I'm writing the sixth, so now it looks like this book is terrible. It's the worst thing anybody's ever written. My editor's gonna hate it.
But I don't doubt that I can write a novel anymore because I know I can. Is it a good novel? That remains to be seen. So, the self-doubt is still there. It's kind of the things that I'm doubting that have maybe changed a little bit with experience.
Stacy
And, like you said, once we climb that mountain of the first novel, and if we continue and keep going, we just keep learning. And and we get stronger and we get better. It doesn't mean that we're suddenly going to arrive at the place where it's easy because it's never easy, but we get better at dealing with the unhelpful tape inside of our head. And then, you know, when you have people around you too, that surround you and are like, can I give you encouragement?
Josh
Yeah. You were talking about community in the beginning. And I think that's like the most important thing that you can do for yourself. As a writer is find other writers to be in community with people who are at your level, people who are better than you, people who you can turn around and support people who are not as far as you just engaging in the writing community and all of those levels and getting feedback and learning how to give feedback and learning how to take feedback and, that was huge for me, and those classes at the Loft, I met some great writers, people that I'm still friends with, and people that I'm still in writing groups with, and that kind of accountability and that feedback has been really, really crucial to my journey to get me to where I am today. You can't do it by yourself, like you said.
So what would you say the best piece of writing advice is that you've ever received?
You know, in the Acknowledgements of And There He Kept Her, I talk about Mary Gardner, who taught that loft class, and it wasn't so much advice that she gave me. It was encouragement and she read the first 50 pages of the book or whatever it was that I turned in, and Mary only wrote on a typewriter.She was anti computer. She didn't have a cell phone. She was in her 70s. She had absolutely no interest in technology and you would get a typewritten letter from Mary with her notes on your book. And the first line of this letter that she wrote me said. ‘My god, you can write.’ And that hat meant everything to me at that time.
And I carried that with me. I still carry it with me, 15, I don't know if it's been 15 or 20 years later. And yeah, like I said, it wasn't so much advice as encouragement from the right person at the right time kept me going.
Stacy
So what gives you the most joy and satisfaction when it comes to your writing?
It was like you said, earlier. It's like the writing is hard. I like having written more than I like writing but until you get to that point, I like watching the word count go up. I like watching the stack of pages get taller.
I find motivation in that. And sometimes I'll sit here in this chair and I'll write 50 words in an hour and a half, and sometimes I'll write 1, 500 words. So it comes in increments, it comes in drips and drabs, but if you don't make the space and the time to get those words down and to let them come you don't end up with that, stack of paper, right?
One of my favorite writing books is Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. And in that book, I think I really learned about giving yourself permission to write badly and don't expect it to come out perfectly. I love having a first draft because that to me is the clay, and that's what you end up shaping into your novel but you've got to write that shitty first draft, and if you don't do that, you don't have anything to work with.
Stacy
Yeah, absolutely. And even if you have to remold that clay a bunch of times, you don't waste words. It doesn't matter how bad they are. They're not a waste because they all give you the next step. So, what is your wish for your fellow writers?
My wish is that you achieve your dream, no matter what that looks like for you, whether it's writing a novel or writing a screenplay or publishing a short story in the New Yorker or, you know, whatever it is. I wish that everybody gets the opportunity to realize that dream.
And I wish that they find the fortitude and the perseverance to keep chasing that dream. Despite the setbacks aside, despite the nose, despite the rejection, despite the. You know, all this work to just to put it away, to start over I mean, all of that is part of getting to that point of realizing that dream. And you can't get there without the work. That's just the most important thing. You've got to do the work. And if you do, you may find yourself in a spot like I have where. You realize that you didn't dream big enough. I never imagined what would happen in the first two books that I've published.
And I'm so grateful, and I'm so just in awe of all of it. And I'm so glad that I didn't give up and that I kept after it, book after book, year after year. Because I would be here today if I didn't
Stacy
Thank you so much. Josh. That's just … I'm a big feeler and I'm like, oh, it makes me feel.
Can you tell us a little bit about what you're currently working on?
Josh
I'm writing a series that features a sheriff's deputy, Ben Packard, in a small town in northern Minnesota. I published the two books so far, And There He Kept Her and Where the Dead Sleep.The third book is called A Long Time Gone. It's written, it's in the can, it'll be out in February, and I'm about 20,000 words into the fourth book.
Stacy
Nice.
Josh
That's where I'm at. Yeah, it was supposed to be out in August, but my publisher pushed it because of the election. Oh. Presidential election years wreak havoc on publishing schedules because the election just sucks all the air out of the room. It's hard to get media attention on anything else.
Stacy
That makes sense.
Josh
People's attention, people are distracted by it, and so you either publish into the election hoping people will buy books because they're so sick of the election, or you avoid it.Publish after the election
Stacy
I mean, I'm disappointed I have to wait that long, but it makes sense, I understand, I get it....
Where can listeners find out more about you and your books?
Josh
My books are available pretty much wherever books are sold in your local independent books store in your library. I know they're in Barnes and Noble and Where the Dead Sleep was the target book of the month in January. So like every single Target has Where the Dead Sleep on the shelf right now. They're everywhere. So they, they shouldn't be hard to find.
On the social media. I'm most active on Instagram. I'm also on Facebook. I have a website, joshuawmulling. com, and you can sign up for my newsletter which comes out very, very, very rarely. It would kind of be always lower on the priority list, but yeah, I would love it if you signed up for the newsletter, and I'll keep you posted about the third book.
Stacy
Okay. I'll make sure to drop that link in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. This has been just a fantastic conversation. You shared so much wisdom, and anybody who listens to this will do nothing but walk away inspired and probably willing to continue to bet on themselves and what they want to do in the writing world.
Josh
I hope so. I hope so. Thanks, Stacey.