The big events of 2024, degree apprenticeships, sustainability targets and are studios really coliving?

In our fourth episode, we talk about:

- Big Events of 2024: We list the important happenings of the year including The Class Foundation Conference, ICEF Accommodation Conference, OpRE24 and UKREiiF
- What Are Degree Apprenticeships? And where do they fit into the housing picture?
- Easy Tips for Being More Sustainable: Quick wins for the shared living sectors in relation to heating and energy monitoring.
- Studios vs. Coliving Spaces: What’s the real deal with coliving? We break it down.

Housed: The Shared Living Podcast aims to bring the latest news, views and insights to the shared living sector.

Each week, Sarah Canning, Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists and Daniel Smith of Student Housing Consultancy will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions that aren't often asked. This podcast is for anyone who works in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-living, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are the personal views of the individual hosts.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome to the fourth episode of Housed, the shared living podcast. I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists. I'm Dini from

SPEAKER_00: 0:11

the Property Marketing Strategists. And I'm Dan Smith from Student Housing Consultancy.

SPEAKER_01: 0:16

Thanks everybody for joining us again. We've absolutely loved talking through the first few episodes of everything that's going on in the shared living world. But we thought we'd start today with talking about events. There's absolutely lots on the set that are hosted by various different people in various different locations with different focuses. I think, you know, between the three of us, we've done our fair share of attending and speaking and moderating at a lot of these. So which ones are we all looking forward to attending this year? Do me. I'm always looking forward to attending the Class Foundation because I think it's a really nice event but I'm really intrigued to see how it's going to go in Manchester this year and to I guess it I think it's great that it's here I think it's really good that the Class Foundation has brought it to the UK and I guess I just I guess it's a call out to our sector to just make sure because it's in Manchester we give it the same time and energy and commitment and hospitality that our European hosts have always given us really I think and I think It's going to be really good to go to Manchester. I think I'm hoping to see bits of the city that I've not seen before and see some of the properties that I've not seen before. And I guess one of the things that I'm really interested in is whenever we go to other cities, Madrid, Barcelona, We go to all these different properties and they look different and they feel different and they are different. And I know we talk about this a lot, Sarah, that actually when we go and do our market research in key university towns in this country, we go and see a lot of properties and we don't really see much difference. So, again, that's something I'm really quite interested in is actually where are we going to go, where are we going to end up, what are we going to see? Yeah. is there going to be different? So I think, I know that's quite towards the end of the year and we're still quite early in the year, but yeah, I'm looking forward to Manchester. I

SPEAKER_00: 2:04

mean, you guys did pretty much, pretty much the same or more, but I did 13 speaking events last year and it was the first time where I just thought, I'm just going to put myself out there. It's not something I'd really done a huge amount of, but yeah, I, I absolutely loved it. Various different types of events from hosting to moderating to speaking to being on a panel or whatever. Yeah, class conferences is always fantastic. There was a collective groan when Manchester was announced. But at the same time, I think it's right that Kellyanne and the team at the class conference have been effectively moved it there because of the fact that the majority of people that are at the class conference are typically UK based. And we're always excited to get out there and see what other properties are like in Lisbon or Milan or Barcelona or wherever. And I think that it does inject a bit of vibrancy and positivity into what we're doing back in the UK. I'd like to certainly see more of that. It's definitely on us to be great hosts. We need to make sure that we're We're sort of doing the same things that we would, staying over, making sure that it's not just a bit of a smash and grab for us, go to Manchester and back. I think half of the sort of the positivity that comes out of that event is the networking and the social side of things as well. So we've got to make sure that we are putting on a good show for everybody, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 3:28

I'm just going to say one that I'm quite excited about is a new one. We all went last year to the ISEF accommodation conference in Amsterdam. We were asked to speak at it. And, you know, Dean and I put a lot of time and effort into our presentation. And it is really time consuming and energy sapping kind of speaking. So you have to give it your all. You have to provide information. you know, in return for being asked to speak, you have to, you know, we think we have to add value to it. So it's not something that we take lightly when we're asked to do these things. And I think because it was a new one, we didn't know what to expect, but we thought it was such a great event. It felt very inclusive. It felt very varied. It kind of took the the sponsorship element out of it so there were sponsors who were on stage speaking but they were very clearly labeled as sponsors they had a spotlight but for everybody else you got the feeling that they were there because they had something interesting to say and they had value to add to the agenda they weren't there being sponsors they weren't pushing um a commercial agenda so we really like that and also you know the organizers martin and co they they also in in included students you know and it was fascinating and it was so great and they they were still there doing the networking afterwards and you know we had some really really enriching conversations with attendees afterwards and that's in London this year so our carbon footprint is going to be lower in 2024 than it was in 2023 that's for sure with with a lot of these events being in the UK but again that you know like like we were just saying about the class foundation that's you know that's a great opportunity for maybe people from the UK to attend who didn't know about it but also that you know something that just because it's in London doesn't mean that it's not as you know glamorous or exciting as as going abroad. No and I think as well the good thing about the ISEF one is that it it brings that university perspective and that wider piece which you don't really get in a lot of the other events we go to and I found that really valuable and I really learned a lot and I think as you say Sarah our connections we made were a very different set of connections and gave us that different perspective, which is really useful in just understanding what universities are going through, what universities are looking for when it comes to housing their students. And I think we spoke last week, we've got a shifting demographic of international students. So it's definitely one to put on your list, I think, for this year.

SPEAKER_00: 5:50

Yeah, I mean, it was in Amsterdam last year. And anything that Martijn van der Veen does is typically very professional. He's super slick. ISF are, you know, they effectively represent the university, higher education and the education agent sector. So it's a really different perspective rather than classic real estate operations. That's it. It's very much focusing on student mobility, international students, what's driving them, where are they going, you know. And I think that's something that we don't really have. because a lot of our events in PBSA in particular are very focused on investment, development and general operations. So it's a really unique perspective and I'd certainly recommend sales and marketing teams to be heading to the ISEF event for sure. In terms of some other events, obviously the usual suspects like Global Student Living, Student Accommodation Conference, Property Week One, obviously that's later in the year, we'll come to that again later on. LD Events, their student housing conference, that's great. Something that's coming up at the Operational Real Estate Festival, that's a really good new one. And that's a really different perspective. It's not something where there's loads of PBSA. It's all the same old faces saying the same old things. It's very different in that it's, you know, hotel, short stay, apartments, BTR, co-living, PBSA now, all in one room. Brian Welsh kind of pioneered PBSA going into that event. And then I kind of followed it up last year. And it's great. It's well worth attending. And then from a personal perspective, Skedaddle in Chamonix, that's a great one. It's, again, started last year for sort of sea level operators, investors, developers, and I've managed to blag my way onto that one. But yeah, skiing and PBSA, they're sort of my, sadly, they're my two favourite things. So yeah, looking forward to it. Two of

SPEAKER_01: 7:43

my favourite things, but I'm not going to skedaddle, but there you go. We are booked onto a new event as well this year. We got chatting with the organisers of UK Reef. It's something we've actively avoided mipping. And we did look at UK Reef as an alternative. And actually, we really like some of the things that the organisers are doing. And we've helped them get a student onto a panel about PBSA. So it's something that's kind of close to our heart to make sure that the right people are represented at these events. Love their focus on sustainability and kind of gender inclusivity. So I think, you know, we will always try these events, see what benefits we get out of it. But for us, you know, we work across the sector. Okay. I think we talked in previous episodes about

SPEAKER_00: 8:47

the lack of diversity in some of these events. I would like to think that everyone has enough time to plan. They've got time to think about their panels and who the keynote speakers are, et cetera. It's definitely time for a bit of a change. A lot of people tend to just focus on the networking at some of these bigger events in particular. And I think that there's a real opportunity to kind of shake things up a bit and make sure that it's super relevant. As you said, Sarah, I would really encourage using students or residents or just making sure that we're actually, we've got the right people in the room so that we can all listen to them. So that's certainly something that I would be focusing on.

SPEAKER_01: 9:27

And I think I'd add to that as well is if you're kind of new to the sector or you're going up the sector and you're climbing the ladder is go and look at all these events and put a business case together or why you should be there or why you want to be there and why you want to learn. Because I think far too often we end up with one level of management in these rooms. And actually, I think that diversity of people coming up, growing our teams, growing our skills, growing you know, succession management, we really need to get more, more young people, more people kind of eager to learn in the room. So if you are listening and it isn't on your agenda to go to these events, go and get a business code together and say, well, actually, I want some investment in this and I want to go to this event. Literally, we've ended up being involved in a lot of these events because generally we get a bit ranty and irate when we see the agenda and we'll call them out and we'll call them, you know, we'll email them and we'll say, hold on a minute, we think there's something missing from your agenda. Can we help you out with that? And, you know, nine times out of 10, we get a response and we end up in a, you know, in a great kind of conversation with the organisers about it. So yeah, if you're, you know, if you don't feel represented, if you feel that you've got something to add to the agenda and, you know, also there are organisations out there that help people with their their speaking and their kind of preparation for public events so there's lots of opportunities to to get involved and i think you know we always say have pointy elbows you know elbow your your your way in because these organizers have got a difficult time you know they've got to sort of to create an amazing agenda so if you can actually knock on their door and give them a solution they're usually very very willing to listen

SPEAKER_00: 11:04

That's what I did at ISEF with Martin. He reminds me that I told him that I was speaking at his conference rather than asked him. And, you know, I think that works well. I'm obviously always happy. I know you both are to help event organizers with, you know, recommendations of speakers, et cetera, and the sort of the agenda. It shouldn't just come from us. It just so happens that we're on the speaker circuit, as it were, and that we're at most of these events. And it's not just for the free tickets. It's very much because that's really an opportunity for us to have a positive impact on the sector. So I think the more that we can make sure that it's not just a real sort of echo chamber organising these events that they're, you know, spreading things far and wide, then great. But equally, all of the events that I've listed, they've already reached out and have said, you know, who do you think would be suitable for this year? And what can we do about, you know, diversity of panels, etc. So I think there's some real positive movement there. And it should hopefully change the events industry for the better across a whole real estate.

SPEAKER_01: 12:04

One thing that I was quite interested to talk about today, quite timely, because National Apprenticeship Week is in February. And, you know, Dini's got a lot of experience working in and around apprenticeships. And I just think it's worth spending a few minutes talking about particularly degree apprenticeships. You know, we spend a lot of time talking about students, PBSA. So, Dini, what is an apprentice that's a degree apprentice? What does it mean and how is it different maybe to what people think about apprentices that are maybe, you know, the plumbing and hairdressing apprenticeships? I mean, an apprentice is, as you imagine, an apprentice, it's someone who learns on the job. I think traditionally, and this is something that apprenticeships is still battling. I mean, I spent some time working in the National Apprenticeship Service many moons ago, and it's something we battled in a marketing team then to change the perception of apprenticeships. And it's something I'm sure they're still doing now. And it is very much associated with these vocational type roles like engineering, painting, decorating, construction. But I would urge anyone to go onto the apprenticeship website and you will see the full breadth of apprenticeships that are now available to do. You could do them in communications, you can do them in science, you can do them in law, you can do them in marketing. And actually, you know, I've just worked on delivering a new entry level marketing apprenticeship into the sector. So there's a whole breadth of you, you name the industry, you name the sector, you can go and find an apprenticeship in it. Obviously, when you have an apprenticeship, you have to match up your study with an employer so you have to have an employer and a college or learning provider that's going to do the studying bit the learning bit and then a employer that is supporting you to learn on the job and traditionally it's 80% on the job and 20% in college in study and you have students Lots of different levels when it comes to apprenticeships. You have your elementary level, which is level two, and that goes all the way up to level six and seven, which is your degree apprenticeship. And it's still a relatively new thing, degree apprenticeships. They've been around for a few years, but they are growing. I know UCAS have been doing a lot of work on making sure that people are aware that it is an option. As with all things, it's a two-way promotion for the government that, yes, you've got to get apprentices on to these apprenticeships, but you've got to get employers on. offering the apprenticeship and having a role that comes attached to it and that's often one of the challenges that you have but essentially a degree apprenticeship is similar to any other apprenticeship you get a job as part of that job you studying alongside it and at the end of it you get a degree and I can't think of a better way if you are a vocational learner to go and get a degree or go and get qualifications because not everyone is an academic learner going to university going to sit in a lecture theatre for the whole of your study time is not the best way to always get what you want to do so I think it's and just one other thing to say is what the government have said that they want to do is make degree apprenticeships on parity with an ordinary degree and that's great that they've said that and I totally agree with that but their actions have to be behind that and I think that's where we may have a slight issue

SPEAKER_00: 15:26

with that I think what you would call that is lip service unfortunately I agree I think it's It should be more of a decision for college students or for anyone looking at what their next step should be, either academically, et cetera, into university. It's not right for everyone. And so you're right. If you're a vocational learner having a degree apprenticeship, that's a great move. Where do we think that they will live? Is there sort of a PBSA play here?

SPEAKER_01: 15:56

Sarah and I talk about this all the time and I think one of the issues we have is when you talk about a degree apprenticeship they're seen as apprentices and they're not seen as students which is fundamentally wrong and they're more seen as full-time workers than they are as students but yet when you've got a part-time student you call them a part-time student but essentially a degree apprenticeship is part-time student and I think that is where fundamentally we have an issue when it comes to where they live.

SPEAKER_00: 16:24

That's a planning issue, isn't it? So, you know, I think that there's some, again, some pretty deep changes there that would need to be made to the planning regime to make sure that degree apprentices could actually access PBSA rather than, you know, us having to create PBAA or whatever. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 16:40

One of the challenges that Dini just spoke about is having enough employers offering these apprentices. And through speaking with UCAS, what is quite clear is that a lot of these opportunities, well, pretty much all of them at degree level are in major cities. And most of them are taken up by local apprentices. We're not seeing that mobility that people are travelling. And actually, arguably, if they had an appropriate place to live, maybe they would. If somebody's living in a countryside in Somerset for example and there's an amazing apprenticeship opportunity in Manchester how are they going to afford that how are they going to live there and who are they going to live with and actually if they were counted as a full-time student and therefore they could live within PBSA as part of the planning conditions of most PBSA then imagine what an enriching experience that degree apprentice would have living amongst other students. And equally, those other students would be mixing with people that are having, you know, really, really different experiences. And, you know, we think it could only be a positive thing. We don't know what the demand would be because it's not a thing. So, you know, in order for it to happen, they would have to be cast as full-time students or the planning would have to be changed because actually arguably why, you know, we have had a discussion. We talked in our last episode about lobbying and, And Dini and I have spoken to government representatives who say that it's not possible because part-time students and therefore also parents apprentices, they're working so they can afford council tax. So they're not council tax exempt. And we're just putting a piece of research together actually about how many students are working and what they're earning. And, you know, I'd be very, very surprised if an apprenticeship is earning more than a full-time student is with their part-time jobs, because guess what? Full-time students are having to work to afford their living expenses. So this is probably one to add to the lobbying list because it's quite complex but it could have such an amazing impact by just changing that perception of these apprentices. And I think it's that classic thing of, you know, let's do something, but let's not think about how we deliver that and how that works in the ecosystem that we have that exists. And I know that we've spoken to universities that are offering degree apprenticeships and trying to grow their degree apprenticeships, but because there's no forward thinking about That parity of experience is actually, do I go down the student route? Do I go down the apprenticeship route? The experience of that living and that connecting with my community is the same. But what's happening is that when universities are designing these degree apprenticeships, they're working with an employer and they're They're making the study into short blocks because that's the way they can get them into the university. And also the other side of it is how great would it be for employers to actually know that they can target talent across the breadth of the country? It doesn't have to be in their local community, but the problem we've got is because there's not that wider... thinking around how we do this, we're going to create a model by which it's always going to be, well, your 20% of study is going to be in a one month block in this period. So we'll just put you in a hotel room. But actually, that is doing a disservice to apprenticeships, I think it's doing a disservice to employers, and it's doing disservice to making it on parity with actually a normal degree room.

SPEAKER_00: 20:03

I think there's such an opportunity for levelling up And to be fair, you know, the current Conservative government coined that phrase and it's now, you know, Department for Housing Communities and levelling up or switch that around if you want it. But ultimately, I think that's where there needs to be a little bit more thought that goes into it, because how great would it be if you're a vocational learner and you know that you can... learn on the job effectively come out with a great qualification but that also you could travel to another city and experience you know that sort of university life as it were i think that's a huge opportunity and that would definitely help with the sort of leveling up and social inequality that i think that exists in part because there's such a focus on well hey obviously you're going to go to university well that's just not right for everyone and and If everyone went to uni, then our economy would probably fall down. So I think we do need to make sure that it's very much... It's better organised. I think UCAS are doing a great job. I spoke to Stephen Cleal at UCAS about this at the class conference, and they're going to be pushing this more and more. So I think there's a definite opportunity here. The government haven't fully seized it with both hands and neither have the universities from what I can see. But the more that we can bring about that vocational learning into the higher education sector, the better.

SPEAKER_01: 21:23

And also, what a great experience for those doing a degree at university to be able to see how that working environment works and what they're experiencing and really like that diverse of that community, I think would just be a benefit to all those in that community. So yeah, I think there's loads of opportunity there and I'm hoping that there is change and we do see that harnessed really. One thing that we're seeing and hearing a lot is obviously people meeting their ESG targets. A lot of people are talking about, you know, carbon neutral or net zero, or, you know, everyone's got a target, you know, in the real estate sector. And a lot of it is incredibly complex, costly, and time consuming. But There are some really great solutions that are kind of low hanging fruit. And we just wanted to spend a few minutes really talking about kind of what they are and how positive, you know, that can be for, you know, chipping away at those really complex targets. So Dan, what are you seeing at the moment that developers, investors, operators can be doing with regard to easy wins?

SPEAKER_00: 22:31

A lot more than they currently are for the most part, to be completely honest. I think there's a huge opportunity for developers pioneering the sector ultimately here. And there's a lot of developers and operators that are doing great things. And some of that is involving retrofitting because building from the ground up is a little bit, it's easier to build a lot more sustainably Well, let me reverse that, because obviously there's no more sustainable building than the building that's already built. But in terms of actually building from the ground up and putting those measures in place, it's very easy to build those into the development side. However, I think there's such an opportunity in the retrofitting. In particular, heating controls, any kind of energy management controls, There are so many firms out there now that are offering those opportunities. And we've seen it across the board in terms of that heating management. It can make a real difference. And the payback time can be pretty quick, whether you've got a wet system or whether you're fully electric. I think there's enough out there now where within a three-year timeframe, sometimes within 18 months, you could see good payback on some of the things that can be retrofitted to these systems. Ecosync, I know that you've just started working with them. I've spoken to Nick a while back from Ecosync when I first saw them at the event. And you know they offer a great opportunity for retrofitting heating control systems and heating management systems onto wet systems in particular I'm sure they'll look at electric and I'm sure you'll come on to that as well but there's there's plenty of other systems out there to prefect controls and you know they're sort of heater panels utopia as well have a great sort of behavior change tech platform involving sensors checking when students are there actually they're living in the rooms and you know whether the window's open and the heating's on full blast. And, you know, I think there's an opportunity to take that one step further from behaviour change through to that heating management as well. So I'd say energy management, heating management, they're the first sort of two things. But yeah, that's something that's just starting to really take off.

SPEAKER_01: 24:44

The great thing about those is that They can all be done whilst the resident is still there. And I think that's obviously one of the complex things that operators always need to consider. And in order to do that kind of facilitating kind of low season or summer season kind of big retrofits, You've got to plan that two, three years ahead because you've got to know what you're pricing, how many weeks you're doing it. And that's really, really difficult. But actually, a lot of these kind of, you know, what we're calling low hanging fruit can be done with the residents in situ. You know, changing a radiator valve takes about one minute per radiator. So, you know, you can get through a whole building really, really quickly within a couple of days with absolutely no interference at all, you know, to the residents lives. So I think I guess that's the first stop, isn't it really? It's kind of looking at what can be done without disruption to your residents.

SPEAKER_00: 25:40

Yeah, it's looking at the lowest possible cost. I think that's as well. Why wouldn't you look at a good sort of cost-effective option that you can retrofit really, really simply? I think genuinely everybody should be looking at how they can retrofit these heating devices like EcoSync onto a wet system and various others onto other systems just to make sure that you know, they're up to scratch. And the savings can be absolutely massive, especially with the cost of utilities as they've been, I think. And it varies depending on the heating system, time of year, et cetera, of course. But yeah, there's a huge opportunity for savings when everyone's looking to reduce their OPEX costs at the moment.

SPEAKER_01: 26:21

There's also with these systems an instant impact on the resident experience as well. Like actually being able to say, actually, you can have some control over your heating and It's a great thing for students. So it's not only you not causing those disruption in actually replacing them, but actually it's minimal disruption to them, but actually there's a massive benefit for you. So from customer experience, customer satisfaction, it's just a win-win really.

SPEAKER_00: 26:44

Yeah, we should probably just say this isn't a sponsored podcast, as it were. We're always quite happy to talk about people that we work with or that we don't work with, as long as it's going to benefit the sector. Don't get me wrong, at some point, I'm sure we'll be looking for sponsorship. And if anyone is interested, do feel free to reach out. But yeah, I think, you know, looking at Ecosync for wet systems, Utopi for the behaviour change piece and Prefect Controls, I think they're the three that really sort of spring to mind that I've seen in developments and being retrofitted. And And it is that retrofitting piece that's kind of key. I was in Sheffield the other day, walking around, and the newer sort of PBSA, all the windows were shut. And I toured 15 of them, actually, and managed to get in most of them, which was a busy day. But the slightly older stock, and I'm talking anything from, I suppose, five years or older, it was a freezing cold day. All the windows were open. any kind of tour of the building, the radiators were on full blast or the heating was on full blast, and that's just not acceptable in this day and age. It doesn't matter who your investor is, whether you're a third-party operator or not, you need to make sure that you are managing your heating more effectively because the payback time is so short. Yes, there's a CapEx investment up front to make sure that you've got these new measures in place and you've retrofitted those, but the payback time is so short that there's just no excuse for, a full wall of open windows and the heating on full blast in each of those rooms.

SPEAKER_01: 28:19

And are you seeing people beginning to look for this, this low hanging fruit, these simple solutions, or are people kind of still looking at the big picture and not really sure where to turn and you see a shift and change?

SPEAKER_00: 28:31

They're definitely more reactive operators in particular, I think are driven by what the investors want. And actually I'd like to see the operators steering the conversation in particular in third party. And, and, It doesn't take much to go and investigate with any of these suppliers, like what's the opportunity here? Can I retrofit this? How much would it save me? Do you think? Because they've all got great calculations. There's some really good case studies now. Even last year, there weren't that many case studies from Utopia or Ecosync or whoever. Now there's case studies in terms of the amount of money and energy that's been saved. And I think that's where... everybody should be looking at reaching out to certain suppliers or to us to say, right, well, what are the opportunities here in terms of energy saving, cost saving, and obviously helping us to meet our net zero targets? So I think the investors will continue to drive that conversation, but there's no reason why operators can't sort of make sure that they're reaching out and getting a CapEx proposal to put in front of an investor's nose, whether the investor's interested or not, right? And if they're looking to flip the property within a year, maybe they won't want the CapEx project, but maybe you could attribute some value to that. And that's where the kind of green premium comes in as well. So... Yeah, it's something that everybody should be looking at. There are some as well that are looking at that too. I spoke to Aaron Bailey from GSA, and obviously you go sort of all over their ESG at the moment. And so I do think there's a lot of operators that are really starting to push that. Same with host as well. But yeah, there's more that can be done there for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 30:08

I mean, one of the main things about this is monitoring, measuring and reporting. And you can only do that if you've got some really clever tech software in place in order to do that. So whichever way you look at it, everybody is going to have to do that at some point anyway. And even with these quick, easy measures, wins that we're talking about, they all have tech attached to them and reporting and amazing dashboards that are super easy to use. So that really should be the first step. place to start because you can't report on anything if you're not measuring anything

SPEAKER_00: 30:40

that's the biggest frustration you know with with good management group my ESG consultancy and the work that we do across PBSA and and And the living sectors, it's the biggest frustration that the data just isn't there. So it's really difficult to show what the savings would be or what the efficiencies would be because people aren't really collecting data. Most of it is done based on invoices or energy bills or whatever it might be. I think there's a real opportunity. The systems do exist. They're not necessarily that But, you know, we've been implementing data collection and management systems in operators for the last two years now. So it's something that we can do relatively cost effectively. But there's so many systems out there that can be linked to like, you know, I know that Ecosync and Utopia in particular have a really good clear dashboard, both operator facing and student or resident facing. It's just about making use of that data and then showcasing it in a quality way. ESG report. And I don't think anyone's really nailed that yet, apart from the likes of Unite, Empiric, UPP. Anyone who has to is mandated to produce ESG reports. No one's really measuring, showing their data and showcasing their wins and their losses, like the bigger ones. So yeah, work to be done.

SPEAKER_01: 31:59

Another topic that we've been hearing a lot is people talking about co-living and there's a lot of co-living developments popping up. When we started getting involved with co-living and we you know our co-living clients we were quite surprised that the product was being described as studio flats for co-living because we were more familiar with the European model which is very much kind of you know those nomadic people house sharing flat sharing much lower density in mainland Europe than we're seeing here so really the question that I wanted to get your your guys view you on is you know it are studios co-living Or are we talking about BTR in a different way? In my head, I think very much co-living is about that. Let's get a group of like-minded people who don't know each other together and have a flexible living experience that you can come and go easily, live your life, do what you need, connect with the community and create a community. And when you put that into studios, you're creating a clear barrier around the individual. I think. And I think that's the thing for me that I can't get my head around. And I think if you had clusters of those studios that were, yes, you're in your own studio and yes, you've got your own space, but you're part of this community of six studios and that's your flatmates, then it kind of feels that you can build a co-living experience and you can build. I guess what I struggle with when you've got a co-living community that is studios is as an introvert, I say I would never want to go and create a community with 500 other people or 200 other people. I'd want to create a community with five or six other people in the first instance and then go out to my wider community. So I think it's that for me is how do you create that? I think it's fine if that's the model you've got, but you've got to find a way that you can connect with smaller groups before you connect with the whole building, because no one's ever going to connect with 200 people or 500 people or 50 people for that matter.

SPEAKER_00: 34:03

Yeah, it all depends on the social spaces and what they're, whether it's, as you said, within sort of, you know, five or six people, or whether it's just you've got your social space on the ground floor, you can go and, you know, you're in your studio, but then you're expected to come out each night or day or whatever and co-work and socialise, etc. And I think... Again, a lot more needs to be done in terms of studying what people actually want. We build studios a lot of the time because they make the numbers work from an investment and development standpoint. Is that actually beneficial to people as to what they want? Is that genuinely co-living? I'm not so sure. And I think a lot more needs to be done there.

SPEAKER_01: 34:43

I think co-living has the opportunity to create an entry-level rental opportunity for the wider market. And that's kind of where it started. It was very small units, got a little bit of positive and negative press around how could people possibly live in such, you know, such small flats. But it did create that entry level. And it's like, well, actually, in London, you know, or in Manchester, if you want to rent, this is a great opportunity, you know, and, you know, you might be living in a small room within a flat and you'll have access to some flats. communal facilities yeah but your initial community will be within your your flat really but obviously as building and construction is costing more, land is costing more. The benchmark has really got much higher. It feels like those being affordable units has kind of slipped away, you know, and like you said, a lot of it is about making kind of the spreadsheet work. I think where it could work really well is maybe in more kind of suburban areas. You know, it doesn't have to be in city centres. So in more, maybe more kind of residential kind of areas, the secondary towns, the land is cheaper and maybe you can create those cheaper co-living communities. I guess it's also about the stepping stone. I think we talk about this a lot in PBSA around product diversity is actually a co-living community can have lots of different types of rooms so it can have those entry level come to our starter flat where you get to know a community but if you know your community and you want to move up to a bit more independence and you go to your studio and I think it is about there isn't a one-size-fits-all as we know from our research there it's kind of you know there's lots of different people need different things from their living experience because everyone is different and I think it is that idea that in a community, and I know a lot of BTR do this, is that actually when you first move into BTR, you might be on your own. You might be a couple. You might then one day be a family. You might be then a blended family. So it's kind of giving people the opportunity to move through their life phases in that living environment and not necessarily having to leave that building. I think one thing that's very clear is an operational cost in a co-living building should be much higher. You know, your budget should be higher because I think you're going to have to work really hard as an operator to facilitate that community. Because if you're in a co-living building and you've got all that social space, you're hanging your hat on the fact that it's a co-living building and you've got all that social space. So that kind of curation of events and community, you know, I think probably ends up being, staff is always going to be your biggest cost but it feels like you probably if you're particularly if you're creating a studio co-living environment that your staff cost will probably be higher.

SPEAKER_00: 37:35

Yeah, I'd agree with that. It's about bringing people out of their rooms. If it's co-living, you want everybody to be living together rather than just in isolation in their studios. So the events, the social spaces themselves, and generally the sense of community that a good general manager can bring about. That's something that we see within student all the time. And I know that exists within co-living that they're desperately trying to create that sense of community by hiring people from within hospitality etc so that you can kind of learn from the hotel side of things i think that's where yes the opex will be a bit you know a bit higher than a traditional more traditional btr and i do see co-living as a subset of btr at the moment there's a little bit of a misunderstanding as to the sort of asset class that that would sit in is it is co-living its own asset class not at the minute I don't think personally I'm sure the guys at Harris Associates would disagree with me there but at the same time I think there's a real opportunity to to start setting that apart it was sort of started by the collective I suppose and almost born out of WeWork what WeWork did for co-working I think the collective wanted to do for for co-living but you know a lot of investors got burnt there and I think that there wasn't any first mover advantage. But if we can just evolve the co-living product, as I know that a lot of operators are, and there are some really good co-living operators out there, then I think that, you know, that will, it will speak for itself. Word will travel and it will be a bit more of a, you know, an evolution or people will go into student accommodation and then they'll start to think, right, well, I'm not just going to go and get a house, am I, or a flat somewhere on my own. Why don't I go into that sort of sense of community? And I think that's where co-living has got a real opportunity to become that sort of mainstream asset class at some point that sits alongside PBSA and BTR. I think it's probably a few years away from that yet, but we'll need to test out what people actually want from their co-living buildings and their lives in general.

SPEAKER_01: 39:36

The kind of mainland Europe co-living model is very much focused around shared resources, not just shared spaces. I think in the UK, I don't know if we're being a bit British about it, that we don't like sharing stuff and we're all a bit reserved, but... it's all about the amenity space. And, you know, you have that, therefore you're a co-living community. Whereas mainland Europe, it's much more about learning together. It's about those kind of, you know, curated communities that they have much smaller units. So, you know, you might have a 15 bed house and it's for people that have an interest in yoga. You know, you might have a 20 bedroom apartment that's for digital nomads. And they're really kind of looking at who the space is for and segmenting that audience to create a product that's really, really tailored to that audience on a much smaller scale. And here we can't do that because it's a new asset class or a subset of an asset class, which means that the financial kind of the savings that come from a mature market aren't there. So everyone has to go high before they go low to kind of prove the concept but I'm not convinced the concept is there yet as a test case

SPEAKER_00: 40:48

yeah I'd agree

SPEAKER_01: 40:49

Well, that wraps up that episode. We've talked about a lot today, but hopefully the audience has found it as fascinating and interesting as we have. As ever, if there is anything else that you would like us to cover that we're not doing, then please do drop us a line and we will do our best to get onto that and to us to part of our agenda. And thank you so much again for listening and we'll see you on our next episode.