Property Ownership vs. Rental Living, Increasing Maintenance Loans and Third-party Management Fees

In this week's episode, we discuss:
☑️Discussion on property ownership vs. rental living and political manifestos
☑️Impact of increasing maintenance loans on rent and if this goes hand in hand with rent caps
☑️Third-party management: Are low fees impacting service standards?

Housed: The Shared Living Podcast aims to bring the latest news, views and insights to the shared living sector.

Each week, Sarah Canning, Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists and Daniel Smith of Student Housing Consultancy will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions that aren't often asked. This podcast is for anyone who works in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-living, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are the personal views of the individual hosts.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Hello and welcome to episode 18 of Howl's, the shared living podcast with me, Dan Smith from Student Housing Consultancy, Sarah Canning and Dini Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists. We're here to take you through all the news and views from PBSA, BTR, co-living, later living and other shared living sectors as well. We'd just like to take a quick moment to talk to you about sponsorship. We're very keen to make sure that we bring you the very best content and that's meant that we have to invest in all of our systems, software, hardware and so we would like to make sure that we can keep bringing that to you. If anybody is interested in sponsoring the podcast and we know we've had a couple of people reach out so far then we'd be really keen to talk to you. Please do get in touch. Anyway, on with the show. So Sarah, what have

SPEAKER_01: 0:47

you

SPEAKER_02: 0:47

been up to this week?

SPEAKER_01: 0:48

I've actually been in Glasgow supporting a filming project for a client. It is a big investment, video content, but it is what we know that Gen Z engage with. So we're really happy that our client has decided to invest in it. It's to support social media content, web content, and also awards entries as well. So cannot wait to see the edit. It was a pretty full-on two days. Used a new and videography company as well so we're really excited to see the outcome what about you guys yeah well we've been busy with lots of proposals going out for b2b and b2c clients so i think that's really good we've had loads of mystery shop inquiries come through for our pbsa mystery shop service that we do in partnership with psa so that's really goes to show actually i guess that we've been talking a few years about the pbsa sector seemingly only being left to be our customer service and people are really now starting to take a focus on that. So that's great to see. And the only other thing that we've been working on this week is one of the favourite things I like to work on that we do is our youth forum that we run where we survey young people and do a follow-up focus group and we did one of those a few weeks ago on what they wish they had known before they went to university and we've been doing final touches to that paper and focus group and that will be coming out soon and some real highlights in there, real surprises actually kind of the types of information that they're looking for that Some might be providing, but some could be providing a bit more information. Topically, one of the things we did learn is that I think it's around just under 30%, which they've been told how to register to vote. So quite a topical thing. And it was ironic because we actually did that survey and focus group before the general election was announced. So I wonder actually if we did it now, if some of them would have gone, hold on a minute, I don't know how to vote. But even then, like 29, 30% is still a lot. of 18 to 21 year olds that don't know how to do it and that will impact I saw a statistic yesterday I can't remember what the actual numbers were but the numbers of over 60s who said they were going to vote was like in the 90% and the 18 year olds was about 20% so they have a big say if they choose to take it

SPEAKER_02: 3:10

up I think there's a lot of apathy towards it at the moment and I almost understand that as well it's been an interesting week for me I have been focused on, I've been getting a lot of feedback on my thoughts about leadership in UK universities. I wouldn't say controversially, I would say it's fairly self-evident, what I was putting forward, the fact that all Russell Group universities bar one are run by academics. By that I mean the sort of leader, the VC, the chairman or chairperson, they are effectively life academics. In my opinion, I think the current nature and the current status of the higher education industry calls for more commercial leadership. And I saw a stat come out from Data HE this morning just saying how badly Russell Group universities are under-indexing against other global universities when it comes to income, when it comes to effectively producing revenue, either across collaborations with industry, the revenue per staff, the revenue per student, et cetera. We are really lagging behind. So that commerciality in universities just isn't... prominent enough. So I think more needs to be done on that. Various opinions, both good and bad. And then I've been continuing the work on the third party piece that I've done a lot of research into the third party PBSA markets and really trying to understand what each operator is doing, what they're looking for, who they're working with, and what the best practice is out there at the moment, both in terms of relationships with investors or general operations. So much more of that to come. But for now, let us have a chat about renting. In terms of the political manifestos, I've analysed them all and put those on LinkedIn. There's very little about higher education. It's pretty horrifying, if I'm being honest. But in terms of renting, Do we think that is a dirty word? Because that is not also being mentioned in political manifestos as well. Sarah, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01: 5:10

Yeah, looking at the manifestos, there's a lot about social housing from certain parties. And then there's a lot about things like plot to buy. And then there's a lot that's kind of delivering X thousand homes per year. It doesn't say what kind of homes they are. So to be fair, you know, they could end up being homes for rent. I've been talking a lot about this with general public, with people, and I still think that that element of to rent, co-living, you know, purpose-built rented accommodation is still really, really unknown by the public. I was talking with my siblings who are staunch homeowners and tried to explain the concept of built rent. And they kind of said, yeah, but even if it is owned by a management company, they could sell it at any point. But how realistic is lifetime renting, really. And to be honest, that is a fair point. You know, we talked about it and the benefits of it. I was then talking to someone yesterday who rents, who kind of said the realisation is I'm never going to be able to buy because while I'm renting, I can't afford to save for a mortgage, which is the same as most people. He said, how am I going to afford that rent when I'm retired? I'm either never going to be able to retire or I'm going to have to move into social housing at some point. Actually, this is a really complex issue that, you know, renting is great and it's something that we've built a career around, really. But what is the future of it? You know, all of these build to rent apartments and we're still very undersupplied when it comes to rental property. But who's it for and what is the future of it? So, yeah, I've just been really thinking about it that I think that, you know, people can't afford to buy So we have to have more rental properties. But what's the end game?

SPEAKER_02: 6:51

Do we think that renting is associated with a certain period of life and that everybody should be looking to buy a house or a flat at some point? And why do we think that when obviously in Europe it's very different? You can rent right the way through your entire life and it's not necessarily frowned upon. I just think we have this preoccupation in the UK in particular with the fact that renting isn't ideal. It's not what you want to do. You want to own it. But what do we think?

SPEAKER_01: 7:20

I think as you said, We have a long standing history of it being an aspiration that we should own homes. And therefore, as a consequence, the rental market isn't set up for long term rental. And there's no protections against that. And I think what you see in Europe is that there is protections that you're not going to, you don't rent a house and be worried that you're going to be kicked out the next year. And we don't really have that in the UK. And I think that's to change that mindset. People need to feel safe that actually they can choose a home. and be in that home for as long as they would like to be in that home without fear of getting moved on. And kind of looking at the manifestos this morning in preparation for the podcast, it's very clear in the Conservative manifesto that aspiration to own your own home will be destroyed by Labour. And that's very clear. And we just have that aspiration, I think, in this country. As all things, you have to change regulation, you have to change laws to shift a culture that we've had for a number of years, I think. But we do need to shift that culture because we're not building enough houses so therefore there's not a pricing structure that everyone can aspire to in their own home now.

SPEAKER_02: 8:29

Can you imagine being someone desperate to try and get on the property ladder and with the rental prices as they are at the moment I just don't understand how you could end up saving enough for a deposit without the bank of mum and dad stepping in to then get your foot on the ladder which is you know I know this is an aside from PBSA for sure but in terms of BTR and any of the other shared living sectors I just can't understand how you would be able to get on the property ladder these days we're very lucky we own our own homes at least I'm assuming you guys do but it just means that you will have to make so many other sacrifices and save for almost decades to be able to afford a home unless something is done by the government but we're not seeing a huge amount there in terms of certainly you know support for renting which will allow for more deposit saving I think there are some more things coming down the line in terms of the the ownership of your first house and how to get a foot on the ladder but we're not really seeing anything concrete as yet

SPEAKER_01: 9:27

I know people you know have had situations where they're selling a house but you know the chain isn't complete and they've looked at renting and they actually can't afford to rent because their mortgage would be way cheaper than the rent would be so actually I don't know enough about the you know the European market apart from PBSA really but you know is it cheaper do people find it easier to but then I guess what we're just saying in Europe is you wouldn't have that aspiration for homeownership necessarily, so it doesn't matter because you're not saving for a deposit, you're happily renting.

UNKNOWN: 9:58

I don't know enough about the rental prices across mainland Europe.

SPEAKER_01: 10:02

Is the cost versus income different. Because I know here that quite often renting is more expensive than somebody's mortgage would be. So the only barrier to homeownership is saving for that deposit. Whereas in Europe, I guess if they're not aspiring to homeownership, they can enjoy city centre living and renting, which is what BGR is striving to be. But the cost is so, so expensive. And I do still think there's that scepticism of, could I get kicked out? Like my siblings were saying, can the owner of that block sell it and actually you'll be in the same position you know btr is very strongly going down the amenities route when actually if i was marketing any btr properties i would be going down the safety and security and you know rental security

SPEAKER_02: 10:49

route i mean it is an interesting one but in terms of in terms of the long term reasons for owning your own home yes getting to the point where you can end up being mortgage free is lovely and owning an asset that you would be living in anyway you know makes a lot of sense but there's so many people now pulling out money from their properties pulling out the equity you know in retirement or before retirement or as and when that I think that it's becoming less about inheritance and what you can leave and much more about lifestyle and the fact that you can build up a bit of a nest egg to then wind down into retirement with or help the kids out onto the property ladder by pulling out equity from your house. Renting is definitely still seen as something that you shouldn't really be aspiring to do. And it would be interesting to see some of those stats from Europe. So if anyone has them, it would be much appreciated as to the sort of landscape of renting in Europe as well.

SPEAKER_01: 11:44

I just want to come in on that, Dan, is that the thing that strikes me is that we are in a position now where baby boomers can help their children to get on the property ladder and give them a deposit but actually because of where house prices are you know and the next generation are struggling and house prices are probably unlikely to increase at the same value they have actually the next generation possibly won't be able to help their kids so I think there is we've got a crisis and a crisis looming on a crisis so we do need to see that change and I totally agree Sarah I think you know we've spoken about it countless times that the benefit of build to rent is that it's built to rent and it always will be and I think that is a big plus that we do need to push out more as a sector. It's just a case of whether BTR

SPEAKER_02: 12:28

is affordable or not. I think there's going to need to be a lot more focus on that affordability within the sector for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 12:34

But that's where you kind of think actually, you know, lobbying for the rental sector comes in because how aware of the sector are the politicians? Because actually, you know, we talk about help to buy, you know, but should we be talking about help to rent? How do people even get on the rental ladder? Because, yes, obviously they still need a deposit. People need to save a significant amount of money in most cities even to be able to rent. And the rental prices are so high for anything quality. And that's what we should all be aspiring to. If we're aspiring to rent, it should be good quality you know secure i mean you know we've all heard horror stories about renting through private landlords not all of them obviously but that that is the stereotypical view so the sector as a whole needs a whole pr job and unfortunately i think the pr job that's been done and please btl sector don't come and get me for this but it's all been on amenity and luxury I don't think that's the right message to get across the benefits of VTR because that's actually pushing people way out of their comfort zones in a lot of cases and prohibiting them from actually even renting. I think this also comes back to kind of when I was at the co-living conference in Amsterdam last September. One of the biggest kind of reflections for me is that the co-living and build-to-rent sector in Europe was very much feeling that their fundamental role to play in the lack of housing in their countries. And that's not a conversation we see in our sector here. And I think it comes back to that is that, you know, we have a role to play and it isn't just one part of that housing ladder that we have a role to play. There's a whole need for housing. And, you know, there's one step being able to rent, but there's also one step being able to find a house in the location that you want to rent. And that's where, as an industry, we do have some power and support and we can provide solutions for. So do

SPEAKER_02: 14:29

you think we've got the terminology and the market messages right overall to support rental living at the moment?

SPEAKER_01: 14:36

I mean, we don't obviously use build to rent if we're talking to the end user. And if you see hoarding around the place, it does say build for renters, which couldn't be clearer in theory. And I can't think of a better terminology. But I think it all looks luxury. So I don't know that it's the terminology or just the general kind of aura. And also, as we've discussed before, it's aimed very much at a certain age group. age group, I'm not seeing marketing for more mid-age people or later living. There's no reason why these people can't live in BTR at any stage of life. But it's still very much kind of focused on that graduate kind of late 20s kind of market. But actually, if these are so expensive, what kind of income would these 20-year-olds have to be on to live in any of these? So I think I'd love to see, well, there needs to be more affordable options, but then it needs to be marketed in such a way that you're actually focusing much more on the core benefits rather than the amenities?

SPEAKER_02: 15:37

I think the real estate industry is still very siloed in that way. And, you know, you've got PBSA for when you're a student, then you've got potentially co-living if you're a graduate, then maybe you move on to BTR. So maybe if you're a graduate, you might have BTR as well. And then at BTR, I think there's this real, almost a focus from within the industry that that stops at some point and those renters within BTR who are aspirational will then move on to buy their own houses. And I think that's where we just need to make sure we're breaking down barriers as and where we can. And that blended living piece that we spoke about last week will definitely come into play a lot more. Right, moving swiftly on. We've spent quite a long time talking about that topic. But back onto the subject of PBSA, but primarily higher education. Do we think that increasing maintenance loans will actually just increase rent? I think this is born out of the university funding crisis and the overall issue that you've got there. But what are your thoughts? Should it go hand in hand with a rental cap? I know that is an absolutely filthy word for a lot of developers and investors. But yeah, what are our

SPEAKER_01: 16:45

thoughts? was inspired to talk about this topic after listening to the Wonky podcast because before I'd listened to that if you'd said should we increase maintenance loads I would have been like yeah let's go for it absolutely but after listening to that podcast and listening to their point of view I could actually see how that could happen because I see it with With pensions, for example, my dad is a later living renter, and every time his pension goes up, his rent goes up, which I just think is disgusting, but anyway. So actually, if there are no restrictions, and you've got landlords that know that the maintenance loan is going up, then yeah, sure, they might increase the rent even more. I think at the moment, they're already going up, so it's hard to know whether increasing maintenance loans would correlate with that but I can see in some markets how it could. So it almost would have to go hand in hand with rental caps in order that that maintenance loan increase just isn't swallowed up

SPEAKER_02: 17:44

by increased

SPEAKER_01: 17:44

rent.

SPEAKER_02: 17:45

I know plenty of investors who would instantly raise prices if they knew that the maintenance loan had increased and that just depends on the investor to be completely honest but I know plenty of them that would do it and I do understand it but yeah it's a case of the mechanisms to counteract that and whether that is getting more organized as tenants and flagging it and communicating it like in ireland in limerick there was a big issue with some price increases and obviously there's rental caps there at the moment but uh but you know for a new development a refurbished development effectively and that just meant that the university student union had to get involved and they then drove the prices down so is this just the kind of thing that can be done on communication i don't know i think you would have to possibly mandate if you didn't want it to be swallowed up then i think that you would have to mandate it but this harks back to a bigger issue in that what the hell do you do with university funding? And I think we could come on to another podcast on this overall, but realistically, you need to increase the maintenance loans. You need to make sure that tuition fees are also increased, or you need to support the universities. So we've got to be supporting the universities and supporting the students. The private sector has a massive role to play in that as well, in not being too unscrupulous in saying, right, great, students are going to have more money or, you know, whatever it might be. Let's Push the prices as hard as we can. I think the time for those kind of rental increases where we're double digit every year for two years, three years, I think they are probably gone, even in the most undersupplied locations. I think there's a bit more pipeline popping up. So it's just going to be a really interesting time. a really interesting topic to look at, but I do think it's a valid question to ask, Sarah. Dini, what do you think on that?

SPEAKER_01: 19:39

I think you're probably right, Sarah. Cynically, it will go up, but I think the key point to raise is that maintenance loads aren't covering rent anyway. So it's not like there's room for them to go up. So I think there needs to be an understanding of thresholds. And I think we've said this several times before, there's only a certain threshold that people can afford to rent when they go to university. And the bank of mum and dad that can afford to support that is getting squeezed and getting smaller and smaller. And I think if the student sector wants to have a student housing sector, they need to understand those thresholds. And I think that's what we've always said. And it's always about optimum rent. It's not about, well, what can people afford? It's actually what's optimum that this asset is worth and that the customer is kind of in the market for. And therefore, that's where you find your optimum rent. So I think you've got to look at it in the round. And I think if you want a student housing industry, that student housing industry has to support students to be able to go to university if you make it only accessible to the richest few then that isn't really what university is about and it becomes a very small sector so i think it's about do you need to look at funding You know, we need maintenance loans to be able to cover rent so that everyone can go and extend their education should they wish to. But we need to understand those thresholds. And as we always say, we need product diversity. We need those on the lower end and we need those on the higher end and we need those in the middle. And we don't really have that in the right volumes right now.

SPEAKER_02: 21:17

If anyone from the housing department is listening, we are not advocating rent caps. It's been shown that they are just not working. In each of the locations that we've seen, it just doesn't work. It stops any development. And that is, of course, the last thing we need when we have a housing crisis in general. There are some markets showing more signs of maturity, and I think that that will ultimately precipitate a drop in rental prices. And I think that will mean that operators have to get a bit more creative and investors will have to look at their due diligence and their underwriting a lot more carefully. But overall, the controlling and mandating of rent caps has not been good for business. So we do have to find a way as an industry to manage that. That may be calling it out, that may be focusing in on some of the investors that have really driven those prices. particularly high alongside potential maintenance loan increases, whatever it might be, I think the onus is on us as an industry rather than the onus being on the government. But with a new Labour government, who knows what will

SPEAKER_01: 22:24

happen. What I would say is if it looks like maintenance loans are going to be increased and if you are an investor developer or operator that thinks that they're going to put their prices up in line with that, get your PR crisis comms in order. You know, we saw this during COVID that the reputation was absolutely ruined by certain operators that continued to charge rent, you know, while students were in absolute crisis. So I think If you're going to do it, if the maintenance loans do go up, then you need to protect your reputation. So, yeah, just bring it out there.

SPEAKER_02: 23:00

Totally agree with that, Sarah. Okay, moving on to third-party management, in particular relevant to PBSA. This is born out of my obsession with looking into the third-party management sector and certainly the dominance of a particular third-party provider. really trying to understand what the market needs, what's being provided and ultimately it's not about saying like okay there's this one company that's doing brilliant things. I've got several clients who are third-party operators and several investors looking for third-party operators and the focus is always on typically for me on micro location. Yes, you need to be able to trust and understand an operator, but it really has to be a focus on that location. I think we've got various different operators, some with a hub and spoke model where they have a city manager and then they have multiple properties with various different investors in each city. And then we have some that are completely ring fencing, each individual building so the general manager is completely empowered to represent that property with investors. And that means that they can have more in each city. But that does start to get a bit problematic. So my focus on the third party sector was because I was effectively getting so many people asking, how is there such a focus on one particular operator And is there a way that we can make sure that there is a bit more of an even playing field, as it were? And so, Sarah, Dini, what are your thoughts on the third party operator space at the moment in terms of reputation and what's happened more recently?

SPEAKER_01: 24:52

I think my take on it really is that operationally, the sector is very, very lean. anyway you know if we can we've compared it before to vtr and certainly co-living it's very very lean and what a lot of third-party management companies have to do in order to survive is to make their operational costs really really low so that they make a profit effectively which is fine because that's that's a business model and everyone's got to make money but i fear that the students are the ones that suffer in a lot of these cases because the operational model isn't where it needs to be to give students a fantastic service and you know that is increasing we're planning a future podcast with some of our friends from the the sector and one thing that we will be discussing is kind of the changing needs of young people you know moving into the future i went i went to school and made that conversation but young people are going to need more support not less support you know with neurodiversity with you know special educational needs etc so i think it's quite a dangerous path to go on and i know that you use this phrase quite a lot down the race to the bottom but it's not just a race to the bottom on fees I think it could be a race to the bottom on service as well. Yeah I agree I think the third party property management is a tough business to be in and it's constantly being pushed down on costs and that separation between investor and a client means that that is a constant ongoing push and as Sarah says I think it's just it's potential to damage the sector because they can't deliver on the service that is expected, which is being even more exaggerated when rents are going up. So I think there's probably a good point in time to take a look at that sector and understand that it does have a role in the reputation of student accommodation. And I know all those operators are striving to deliver the best for their students, but their budgets can only go so far, especially when they're signed and sealed, and that's what they've got to work with. So I think yeah there's a risk for the sector there and i think we probably is a good point in time to take a good look and see how we can ensure it doesn't it doesn't go further the wrong way

SPEAKER_02: 27:06

i think i'll just say this that all of the third-party operators that i've spoken to and that i know are very credible typically very experienced and you know they're just on various different parts of the of the journey to to scale and you know yes you've got homes for students for example they've scaled massively over the last six years done extremely well and and they've now uh you know 49 of the businesses has been sold to far east orchard which will make things very interesting with some potential in housing from some current investors and and i think it will be there'll be a bit of a domino effect there with them other investors and other operators starting with properties run by other operators starting to change ultimately and starting to look around at what what good value looks like and that's not me saying that they'll be running away from any particular operator at all i think everything i've seen so far there's nothing major to call out here in terms of bad practice or anything like that it's just the transparency that i don't think that we have currently and part of that is because various different operators have scaled quite quickly and aggressively and have made sure that they've got their operating budgets and revenue forecasts in front of developers or planning agents, or even before that, land agents. And what I want to do is make sure that that transparency is pulling through into management fees, for example, because the management fee piece is where I think there's a race to the bottom. It's not because I think that everyone's going with one particular operator or anything like that. I think that the race to the bottom is in the fact that there is now a bit of a misconception that these properties, PBSA properties, can be run for next to nothing. When in actual fact, that's not happening anyway. What you're finding is that you've got a couple of management fee options. You have a percentage of your either gross operating income or your net operating income, depending on which way you look at it. Most of them seem to be on net operating income. And then there may be a few bonuses here and there, percentage share of NOI, if they've exceeded targets or whatever it might be. There's some that are on a flat fee per bed basis, but that tends to be quite low. And if your management fees are low, you're going to look for other places to earn money from. And that's where I don't think that we've got the transparency. I'm seeing a lot of operating budgets come across my desk from various different operators with one fixed fee budget line, a very low management fee and then one fixed fee budget line. And any fixed cost is being chucked into that from staffing to broadband to whatever it might be. And that for me, I don't particularly like it because it means that all kind of costs can be put into that and you have no breakdown and no visibility on what those costs are. I've started work with a couple of investors who are showing me some of these budgets and ultimately I can't get a breakdown so I can't see if there's savings to be made and obviously there's money to be made by the operators in that sense so I do understand that if you have a low management fee then you're going to want a one fixed cost line so that you can potentially make sure that you can get some upside on the budget in that sense. And that's where you can earn extra revenue to top up that very low management fee. Totally understand that. What I don't like is the lack of transparency that that breeds.

SPEAKER_00: 30:52

What I would prefer

SPEAKER_02: 30:52

to see from the entire sector, the entire third party sector, is a really open and honest conversation about what it actually takes to run these PBSA properties on a transparent basis. And by that, I mean, what's your base management fee? what could an incentive fee look like? And I'm not going to go into what I think that should be right now, in part because that's a paid consultancy piece. It's taken me three weeks to go through this in full. But I've effectively now got a matrix of every single PBSA third party operator, how they run, what their management fees are. And what I want to do now with that is ultimately say, let's have some more transparency, guys. It can't just be that we're not necessarily hiding things, but that we're kind of distracting people by saying, hey, we've got this very low management fee. Now let's try and find some way to make money with other entities or FM management or whatever it might be. So we do have to be bit careful about how we are operating. That is for sure. But I've got some very credible clients in the third party space. I would like to see. And there's very, you know, very credible operators across the board in that space. Like I said, there's no one that I can flag where I'm like, oh, no, you shouldn't go with them. But it's a case of who's right for your property at that particular time. Are they incentivized by their management fee? And do we have the benchmark right? Because no investor is going to want to pay more than they should. But at the moment, I don't think there's enough transparency for investors to to make an informed decision at the moment based on what I'm seeing come across my desk. That's my 10 pence worth. And I don't think that's too controversial because pretty much everyone that I'm talking to about third party space is saying the same thing. Not enough transparency, bit of a race to the bottom on management fees, which means that we can't invest in the right experience, the right service for either the students, but also the staff and the team members on a property level. You know, it's going to get tougher. I would like to just bring about a bit more transparency. So hopefully this report can do that.

SPEAKER_01: 33:00

Great that sounds very interesting and as always we're interested to know our audience's feedback about it and we're always interested to know that anybody that's doing anything innovative or different in the space as well and anything that we should be looking out for.

SPEAKER_02: 33:14

So yeah thanks so much for listening let us know what topics you want us to cover as Sarah says you know this podcast is very much about all aspects of shared living so we've tried to cover BTR as well as PBSA today I think the majority of our listeners are from PBSA but We do need to stop operating in silos and start thinking a bit more along the lines of blended living and talking to each other to share best practice. So, yeah, please do tune in again for episode 19 and let us know if there's something that you want us to talk about. As ever, please do like and subscribe and review the podcast and share it with your network so that we can hopefully drum up some more ideas for content fairly soon. Thanks very much for listening.