Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists have teamed up with Daniel Smith of Student Housing Consultancy to discuss the latest news, views and insights in the shared living sector.
Each episode they will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions which aren't often asked.
This podcast is a must for anyone working in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-Living, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.
Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
Build to Rent vs Build to Sell, General Election, ESG and Fire Safety and AI in the Shared Living Sector
☑️ Build to Rent vs Build to Sell: Exploring the key differences as discussed in the HomeViews webinar
☑️ General Election: Our initial reaction to housing policies.
☑️ ESG and Fire Safety: Is it just an Estates problem?
☑️ AI in the Shared Living Sector: The potential and challenges.
Housed: The Shared Living Podcast aims to bring the latest news, views and insights to the shared living sector.
Each week, Sarah Canning, Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists and Daniel Smith of Student Housing Consultancy will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions that aren't often asked. This podcast is for anyone who works in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-living, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are the personal views of the individual hosts.
Hello and welcome to the 21st episode of House the Shared Living podcast with me Dan Smith from Student Housing Consultancy,
SPEAKER_01:me Deanie Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists, me Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists,
SPEAKER_00:So 21 episodes down, we're going to hold a 21st birthday party this Friday. We're recording a special session with various other podcasters as well down in Bristol. So we'll keep you posted on that and when that's released. But for now, what have we been up to in the world of shared living? Sarah, what have you been up to?
SPEAKER_01:To be honest, I think I've been trying to keep up with webinars and report releases. They all seem to have come at once, really. I always sign up to webinars knowing that I might not be able to watch them live, but I that I get a recording afterwards. And with lots of clever AI and chat GPT technology, we can make sure that we get them transcribed and pull the notes out so we can try and keep up with what's going on because there's a lot of information out there. And because we span all of shared living, that's quite a lot of stuff really to try and digest. One that I did find quite interesting this week was tailoring the single family resident experience versus multifamily webinar hosted by Home Views. And there was still quite a lot of discussion about about classification. And I know we've talked about this before and kind of what do we use as industry terminology versus customer facing terminology and what do they understand about it? So that was quite a discussion point. But also what I found really interesting was actually the design. And I think we'll come onto this with another report that we've read. but kind of the design for purpose-built renting should be quite different and distinct to homes for sale. And that's what I really learned from that webinar. So for example, the management company will have to maintain that property for years and years and years and years. So it's not like when you buy a property and you have a warranty for like two years, when you're buying for rent, those properties need to still look as good for the next renter and the next renter and the next renter. So they were talking about the investment in really good quality materials good quality white goods and maintaining the grounds you know really good quality build because they can't get away from it you know it's not selling and leaving it's the management company, the developer always being involved. So yeah, so I found that really interesting. And they were also talking about how sustainability and making sure that buildings stand the test of time really resonates with investors as well as developers as well. So that's kind of good news all around.
SPEAKER_00:That's a really interesting point on the sale versus renting and the long-term impacts of that. And I always think that sales agents in PBSA or BTR or any kind of long-term managed properties should should be held to some kind of long-term release fee effectively, whereby Sales agents are incentivized to sell a particular property and therefore they are going to make sure that that property is showing a really strong revenue. It's showing a strong OPEX. It's pitched as best as it possibly can be. You're going to be saying that ultimately there is an opportunity to, there is an undersupply in Coventry, for example. And I think that the owner should be on the sales agent as well in some way, shape or form with some kind of contract mechanism that they are on the hook for the performance of that asset as well so I think as well as the tenant impact I think there's also an impact on the investment side as well and sales agents have a big part to play in that. Deanie what have you been up to?
SPEAKER_02:Well first I just exactly that point I was just thinking about with Sarah and what came to me is that actually we should be creating good quality homes full of longevity with good materials that are going to last because homes are going to be here forever and we've got to make them sustainable and not need to be replaced. Anyway what have I been up to similar to Sarah I've been spending a lot of time trying to work out how to use kind of AI tools to help us really collect as much of the information as possible in the most efficient time so we can digest it ourselves use it for our clients and feed it back which has been a bit of a learning curve but something that I'm enjoying and we've been working on a recent branding pitch for a client and we just secured a new partner to progress that forward I'm really excited about that and I guess bringing it up just because it's really nice to see that actually more and more people in the sector are starting to see the benefit of brand, investment in brand and the importance of doing so and doing that properly. Not just, you know, a quick, cheap process just to do something and get a logo, but actually really investing in understanding your business, understanding what your business wants to communicate. So we're really excited to get going on that and really excited to have a new partner to work with and really thankful that we've got clients that are willing to make that investment and we know it'll pay dividends.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's kind of the point, really. And I think we've worked with quite a lot of clients over the last probably year or so, really, that are realising that it. what they had initially was a logo and it doesn't represent their brand and their values and their ethos and that's where people are now investing so I think gone are the days where you know a logo is literally just that and now people want to do something that represents them and sometimes to be fair it takes a while you know a lot of startups or people that maybe take on a portfolio quite quickly they haven't got time to develop that brand they don't know who they are they don't know what they stand for they don't know how how they want to talk to their customers. So actually this is probably just a fair evolution and that's probably quite typical. And that's why people should always have kind of what we always say is if you have an in-house graphic designer, that's not the same as investing in your brand and that you should always have budget to look to refresh your brand as the years go on because it's just a normal evolution.
SPEAKER_00:I totally agree. I mean, anyone can go onto Upwork or Fiverr these days and you can get a logo created for 20 quid. And I've done that personally in the past. And the quality you get is absolute crap. You really have to make sure that you are sowing your values and your purpose into your brand. It can't just be about ultimately a pretty logo or font or whatever it might be. You've got to make sure that you are really investing in understanding what you stand for as a company and what you're trying to achieve, really. And your brand should be able to communicate that to anyone and everyone. B2B, B2C, it doesn't really matter. So yeah, definitely worth investing in. And everyone is on a different path with that I think it depends on how much money you have ultimately, but also depends on how mature you are as a business. Just look at Yugo, for example, having completely created that brand from scratch out of the student housing company or Mies as well. Good example from Aberdeen, those guys as well, creating that brand from scratch too. So yeah, all very important. Just quickly, slight tangent on AI. Really good that you're using those AI tools to sort of streamline some of the summaries or reporting on the... The various different webinars or reports that we do tend to read in PBSA, BTR and the other shared living sectors, is there going to be a big impact, do we think, on jobs within the shared living sectors from AI? Where do we see that that might actually be something that people could be concerned about? Or at the moment, are we just seeing positive benefits and that's all for the time being?
SPEAKER_02:It's a good question. And I think this did come up a little bit in the Operational Real Estate Festival that we went to, I seem to recall. But I kind of think that There has to be a role for those backend jobs in AI. All those functional routine things that is just following a process can easily be done by AI. But what I think the key that we're always talking about is that we know that these structures are very slimly resourced. They don't have huge amounts of staffing to deliver that kind of customer service, which we know is getting more and more important. But actually what that should do is free up people to actually do that customer service. personal tailored bit. And I think we've probably spoken about this before, but my partner works in retail and very much the work that he does in store design is about creating an experience and a difference of going to that store because he's competing with people shopping online. So it's got to be an experience. It's got to drive people to want to go to that store. And I think the more that we go down this route of automation, it's got to be much more tailored to the personal. So for me, it feels very much like there's going to be a resurgence in the personal and we should be able to afford to do more of it because we've got so much of those back functions being automized you know one thing that I hate and I won't ever rarely respond to is very obvious automated kind of things on LinkedIn that are just chucking things out of me because I've ignored them and I can't stand them Whereas actually, if there is a process that, you know, you download something, you get those automated that you know and understand, but then I get a follow up by someone who's real, then that is much more personal to me is going to have a much bigger effect. So
SPEAKER_01:that's my view. Again, as Dini says, I think there's a place for them to speed things up and make people more efficient. But I do think that there still needs to be a place for human. And I think the way we argue this quite a lot in marketing, because people can use ChatGPT to write blogs and to write content. And yes, you can train it to write in your own tone of voice, but it's not quite the same and it really negates the value of marketeers. It negates the value of people that have learned their craft, honed their craft and are very, very skilled at copywriting. and creating different types of content. So I think if people dabble with it, they probably quite often go back to the human because you can quite easily spot AI written content. And we quite often are asked to do marketing audits and we can spot it in people's websites. And quite often it's SEO stuffing that has been written by a bot. for a particular purpose. And yes, it probably does meet that requirement to create great SEO results, but it's nothing that anybody will want to read or connect with or resonate with and feel like, wow, they're the kind of people that I want to shop with, or they're the kind of people I want to live with. It still doesn't feel human enough and maybe it never will.
SPEAKER_00:I agree at the moment. What I'm seeing is it's not human enough. The tone of voice isn't quite correct. Even though you can train it, it's not quite there. I've trialed it on LinkedIn. How I haven't actually put anything out there, but I've used that little AI prompt where you can just summarize what you've written or change it and supposedly make it better. And it's just, it's not me. It's not my tone of voice. I'm not saying that everybody likes my tone of voice, but I think it's really key to be personable and make sure that it's very much tailored. And I think that personalization is absolutely key to real estate. We may see more AI and more automation in, particularly in the element of the onsite property teams. And I think the needs and the nuances of operations, sales, marketing, I think there's certain areas where it will have an impact, but remains to be seen exactly how strong an impact as yet. Anyway, good tangent to go off. I thought I'd just canvas your opinions there. Obviously, the big news this week certainly wasn't my viral LinkedIn post, which we won't discuss. It was the general election. And we are now safely in the hands of a Labour government. I say safely, let's hope that it goes as planned they were very cagey with their manifesto commitments in particular to universities or housing and more recently they've come out and it was rachel reeves the new chancellor of the exchequer who discussed yesterday that there will be planning planning reforms they're looking to build one and a half million homes overall and so we are starting to see green shoots of not necessarily recovery but certainly of positivity so let's hope that that messaging continues and that it actually turns into actions. What have been your thoughts so far, Sarah, on the new Labour government?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'm very impressed with how quickly they've moved. They seem like my kind of people so far. Within 72 hours, Rachel Rees has very clearly set out their plans for housing. I think it's interesting that as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, she's taken that lead rather than Matthew Pennycook, who's been appointed as the Housing Minister working underneath Angela Rayner. So I think that's a clear directive that this is about the economy and will contribute to so many different areas. We're not just talking about housing in a silo. So that's very positive for me. Although the one thing that did strike me about what she was talking about yesterday, I feel like a lot of focus quite rightly will be on affordable housing, capital A, which is very, very much needed. But as we've discussed before, and we've heard before at many conferences, where does that leave this missing middle? So you've got affordable with a capital A, you've And if they're going to focus all of their attention on social housing and affordable housing, that needs to be balanced by the private investors and private funding, which will be focused on the high end as they kind of have been. And with relaxation on potentially planning, brilliant, there's going to be loads more money coming in and loads more people building. But I'm still a little bit concerned that... still a lot of talk about home ownership and is there going to be enough focus on things like build to rent and single family housing and pbsa that people won't be eligible for in a social housing capital a affordable sense of you know point of view but is there enough focus on that kind of middle product
SPEAKER_00:so we need more beds we need them in the right places. We need some levels of affordability, but not just affordable stock. We need stock at various different levels. My concerns so far are that they're putting in 300 extra planning officers. Well, That's pretty much one planning officer per local authority, which is nothing. And so that's a drop in the ocean there. It needs a lot more than that, unless they're going to completely streamline the process. I'm a bit concerned about mandating affordability as per the London plan and that that will spread across the UK even further and wider than it already has beyond the mayoralties, etc. I want to make sure that as well, we don't start looking at rent caps because we've seen that they haven't worked in other locations from an investment standpoint. I mean, if we want to make property cheaper, whether buying, renting, students... co-living, whatever it might be, more supply and the more suitable supply that we have of those beds and of those properties, the cheaper the price ultimately. And so we need to make sure that we aren't just cutting off our nose to spite our faces because of the fact that the rent caps have been proven that they just haven't worked in Ireland, for example, development ground to a halt. We are trying to ensure that there is as much development as possible in the right locations at the right prices. And having rent caps in place and more stringent affordability criteria is certainly not going to do that. So that's the one word of warning. If Labour do start looking at that, it will slow down the development. But hopefully, from everything that I've heard so far, it is looking quite positive. And they are very much focused on an action-based plan to get that housing delivered. It would just be good to make sure that student housing, co-living, BTR, the shared living industries are really a part of that as well. Deanie, what have been your thoughts so far?
SPEAKER_02:I agree with you both. They've come out of the back quick. There's been lots of announcements to the point that probably by the time this goes out, there's something quite important that we've missed because we haven't been able to talk about it because there's something new going on. But I think what is different and what struck me is Keir Starmer coming out of the weekends, visiting all the different nations, visiting all the mayors today, and that feels far more consultative. than we've had in something we've talked about that we need to do in a sector. And actually to all those points that you made, Dan, about understanding what all the sectors need, understanding all the different priorities, it feels like there is a move to try and get those information and understand that actually what is it that's needed in local communities so that we can balance all that up. And to your point, Sarah, it kind of feels that actually if this is being led as an infrastructure growth plan, actually that starts to be in a strategic objective that all the other departments can feed into and feed from. So therefore it feels like this is our big objective Now those departments need to make it work for those different people. It feels as if you were trying to compare it to a business. being a well-run business and actually it's it's taking stock it's understanding what people need and then going out and delivering it but it's early days it all sounds very positive you know it's great to hear that those things that we've been talking about for weeks what we know needs change you know everyone's got their hopes pinned on them delivering really because that's what we need
SPEAKER_01:maybe we should invite matthew pennycook or rachel reeds to be guest panelist on how's the shared living podcast and get them involved so if they're listening then please get in touch.
SPEAKER_00:I had a lovely response from Angela Rayner in the run-up to the election just saying I'm afraid I can't meet with you to discuss the student accommodation strategy that you're putting forward but I'd love to speak to you afterwards so at some point soon I will reach out again to Angela Rayner. So she's in charge of housing, levelling up and communities and she's appointed Matthew Pennycook as the housing secretary. We don't yet have a university secretary yet so we'll find out who that is fairly soon.
SPEAKER_02:And just to keep it topical and to the point dan apparently i've read this afternoon that leveling up is a banned word because it's just a slogan so leveling up is going to replace by local government
SPEAKER_00:it just reminds me of michael gove and that's that's never a good thing we we wait with bated breath for the actions for the information on what that planning reform is going to look like what's going to happen with university funding are they going to raise tuition fees or are they going to support universities better they've got a hell of a mandate now that majority is pretty incredible and i think that it does give them an opportunity to To be quite bold with some of the policies. They do still have to be a little bit careful in places, but I think they can be pretty bold with some of the policies. Also helps that the Lib Dems, of course, proponents of no tuition fees and really sort of supportive of students have such a strong turnout as well with 71 MPs elected. That's fantastic for them. And I think that that will also strengthen and embolden Labour. I hope it will anyway. To just make sure that universities in particular are supported, but knowing that the Labour Party can also now be, and the government can also now be, certainly bolder in terms of the planning reform and local authority reform and just making sure that it doesn't have to be the same old things you can chuck the baby out with the bath water in this sense because you know we are in a housing crisis and a university funding crisis those are the two things that we really care about on this podcast so let's hope that they get to work straight away the signs look good so far
SPEAKER_02:i think we do have to keep a reality check though
SPEAKER_00:because
SPEAKER_02:they have got a lot to do they have got a lot of things to fix but They've said there's no money as well. So I think, you know, it's probably why Rachel Reeves has come out and says the only way we can do anything that we have said we want to do is to get the economy growing. So I guess that's why that's the starting point. It's great. It's good to feel that change coming in and being really positive. But the reality is still we've got to find a way to pay for it.
SPEAKER_00:You could certainly promote our world leading education sector to other countries. That would that would certainly help. Moving swiftly on to a very different topic. And it's looking at budgets for ESG and fire safety. Now, this may sound like an incredibly boring topic, but it is top of mind for so many investors and developers at the moment. And I know that some of those measures and building control acts are, you know, adding to development timelines quite significantly. But, you know, in terms of ESG and fire safety so far from an operational perspective, Sarah, are you seeing that they are being budgeted for? Are they the first things to be value engineered out? I suppose ESG probably more than fire safety there. You can't value engineer out fire safety, but what are your thoughts at the moment?
SPEAKER_01:As you say, you can't value engineer fire safety out. So I think from what we're seeing, the physical aspects of it, people are working through. It's complicated, it's complex, and it's something that people need expert advice on. So that side of thing, I'm pretty sure is being budgeted for. And as we discussed at the Opry event if it's not people are just selling their portfolios so they're either budgeting for it or they're not budgeting for it and somebody else will do it. I think that one aspect that we don't think is being talked about enough and the reason we know this just to be transparent is one of our clients works in this space is resident engagement and it's coming as a surprise to a lot of people that what you have previously communicated to your residents about fire safety is not going to be enough anymore and that needs to be budgeted for based it's not as simple as sending an email out or sending out a piece of paper that they have to sign if anyone wants to find out more about it then you know we'll we'll put them in touch with our clients that can but really it's serious and not communicating effectively with your residents is a criminal offence so not to be too scary about it but yes it does need to be budgeted for and we're not seeing that going into budgets at the moment would you agree Dini? Yeah I think the issue that
SPEAKER_02:is occurring here is I think there's been lots of change to building safety. We've got the Building Safety Act. We've got lots of things that fall out of that Building Safety Act and lots of different strands that impact that. But from what we're seeing, this is very much still sitting in the world of facilities managers, estate managers, and actually where there's been a significant change in law with the Act is that the principal accountable person is the landlord, the owner, the investor, who, if all those things in the Building Safety Act aren't delivered properly, it's not the managing agent that's going to be accountable. It's the owner and the landlord. And I think this is where it's just that communication from government hasn't broken through how much liability people have for making sure that their building is safe, that people know what aspects of safety are protecting them in a building, and that they know how to utilise and live in that building effectively. And I think there needs to be more communication from an investor level and engagement and understanding understanding. And at the moment, I think there's very much a sense of, oh, my estates department's dealing with that and it's all fine. And I'm sure estates departments are dealing with it, but it's understanding that they're probably just dealing with the transaction element and maybe not necessarily informing investors what their liability is at that point.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. I do several feasibility studies every month and I'm looking at different properties or different locations. And what I'm seeing at the moment is To be honest, quite horrifying in some parts. There's a real lack of understanding over what surveys need to be provided and what regulations need to be achieved. And that can be as basic as are your fire doors up to scratch through to your, you know, don't mention the C word, but through to your cladding. And that is becoming a real issue for me in the sense of I'm having to then ensure that I have the right fire inspection reports and the right cladding reports reports, and that I've been through that as well. Now, I'm not qualified to do that, so I make sure that I've got someone who can do that for me. And there are various different experts and consultants who can do that as well. So it's becoming more and more of an issue. The latest portfolios that have traded, I can think of buildings in Newcastle, in Glasgow, in London, in Exeter, several other places as well, where cladding has been an issue or fire regs have flagged some irregularities. And that is really, really difficult for an investor to then be able to take on. You will expect a huge revenue chip on that purchase and you then have to do all the remediation works. And that is a bit of a challenge. So it means that there's a lot of work for the purchaser and then a big revenue chip for the seller. So best advice is obviously make sure that you're fully compliant first and foremost, if you've got people living there. Other than that, just get as many inspections done as you possibly can. As painful as that process is, there will always be an investor or someone looking to purchase that property that asks for another fire risk assessment or whatever it might be. So it's just becoming more and more of a challenge in that sense. And I do think that fire regs and building safety regs, they've certainly overtaken ESG as the kind of buzzwords that everybody's talking about and really bolstering their focus on. That's for sure at the moment.
SPEAKER_02:I think the other issue is that actually, you know, it's a new act, it's a new law, and that's still being clarified and challenged. And that's where really understanding it and speaking to experts is that there's lots of grey areas still. And there's lots of all, what does this mean in this scenario? Because it's not all been fully thought out and considered as much as it should be, because it's a new act and it's got to be tried and tested. So I think that's where you do need some help and advice, because the way that you're reading it might not be the way that it will be regulated. And there will be probably at some point that people are going to be held to account against these and this will be the watershed moment for this act that actually you know time is running out to act because at some point the government will or the regulator will take people to court and say well it's laid out here this is what you're meant to do and you haven't done it so so that i think will be the moment that that probably everyone starts to to act but really the advice is don't act now.
SPEAKER_01:That's what we're hearing is people don't want to put too much time or effort or money into it because they don't really know how far they have to go. So until the regulatory boards reject paperwork and legislation, people don't know if they've gone too far or not far enough because it's not completely prescriptive. But yeah, I guess our message is do more. You know, you can never do too much when it comes to fire safety and don't wait to be told that you haven't done enough.
SPEAKER_00:And to anyone's selling a portfolio, just make sure you have all of the documents that you need. You've got all the inspections to hand. The amount of times I have to go back and ask for things is quite painful. So if we can just make sure that everybody has all of the relevant documentation, and if you need a hand on any of that, give me a shout in particular. I'll happily give you that information away for free. In terms of ESG, how are people budgeting for that at the moment? And I come at this, obviously, with Good Management Group. We do the ESG strategy for various different companies in the PBSA and BTR sector. We've worked with Downing, Get Living, Project Student, Fusion Group, CBRE, various others as well. Just wondering how you're seeing that people are budgeting for ESG.
SPEAKER_02:I did actually have a conversation with Vesta recently having this conversation about budgeting for ESG and the response back I got was the E is getting too hard so we're just focusing on the S.
SPEAKER_00:No one knows what the S is and you can't quantify it or people find it difficult to anyway. We
SPEAKER_01:don't get involved necessarily at estates level and I guess that's an overriding title to this conversation is ESG and fire safety just an estates problem I think when you start cascading it down we're still not seeing from a marketing and communications perspective, what is being done at estates and investment level for us to be able to communicate it to stakeholders. Do you need a budget for that? Well, yes, because it's somebody's time and effort to communicate it. So from that point of view, I would say no. And, you know, we do lots of awards entries and it's so difficult getting information about ESG, particularly E. because the people that put it in place, the people who are monitoring it, the people who are procuring things haven't told the ops people or the marketing people what they're doing and what the impact is. So at the point that we're writing awards, there's this mad scramble for information and data and evidence, which somebody has, but nobody's cascaded it down or made it digestible for the end user. And I think when we're talking about the majority of the residents in our audience's buildings are quite young, we're talking about education and behavioral change. And we can't do that if we're not educating people on what their buildings do, how they've been built. how they work for them, all of the fantastic things that, to be fair, investors and developers are spending good money on. But if they're not telling the end user, then it kind of loses a lot of its value, really.
SPEAKER_00:I think that communication piece is absolutely key. There's a massive lack of resource in PBSA operators, whether it's third party, obviously very difficult to create a credible ESG strategy involving your properties when you're a third party operator. But owner operators, there's still a lack of resource from what I can see and a lack of understanding of to what the impacts are and how you should be managing them, what that strategy should be and how you should be reporting on it, when you should report on it, et cetera. That's obvious from the ESG panel that I was on, Operational Real Estate Festival. And that lack of resource... sort of then it then flows into the fact that sustainability people are typically very different from marketing people and by that i mean you know with sustainability it's all about data and it's all about getting the numbers in understanding the regulations understanding the impacts and trying to mitigate them or create a positive impact it's not necessarily about communications and that's where marketing and the esg teams or the operational teams wherever your esg sits within your company that goes hand in hand so then communicate that i to the investor and down to the end user, but also then within your company too. So I think there's a real lack of resource there and a complete lack of understanding as to what's required and what would be good, really. The last question that I got at the Opry Festival was effectively, you know, when should I report on my ESG impacts or when should I release my ESG report? I was like, well, now, start reporting on your impacts now. This is the time to do it. Just be open and honest about your performance and chart your plan to to make some improvements to it. I do see some positives in terms of Unite. They're really good at putting out good sustainability messaging, rolling out each of their sustainability team in various different events and producing good reports, making sure that they're open to other people, the companies to use. I'd like to see more of that from everyone else. We are so far behind many other sectors in real estate because nobody really understands what they should be gathering from a data perspective we're only just scratching the surface of potentially employing people and there's still that focus on shoehorning people into roles and just you know oh well Janet in HR likes you know likes tree planting so why don't we give her ESG well that's that doesn't make her qualified as an ESG specialist and and you know I'm sorry to say not even a six-week course with the Cambridge Institute of Sustainability Leadership makes you an ESG specialist it gives you a passion for ESG. And I can say that because I have no qualifications in ESG whatsoever. All I have is learned experience and a business partner who is an environmental scientist and has the masters and all the qualifications and is an auditor for various certifications, etc. So, you know, I certainly lean on that all the time, but I fully understand what's required. And I also then understand how difficult that is. So when we've seen a investors and they aren't focusing on building out big ESG teams or anything like that. It's great for me because I can step in as a consultant and say, listen, our consultancy and all of our consultants that work with us can help you manage your ESG. You don't have to hire people. You don't have to create massive teams and stick them on the payroll. You can do this on an outsource basis and be extremely effective like Downing have been, for example. But there's lots of opportunities to do that. I just think that there's a real lack of understanding as to what people actually, what come Companies actually could be doing what they need to be doing and what they should be communicating. And that's, again, where there's a complete resource and knowledge gap that I think we need to fill within PBSA, BTR, co-living in particular. Hotels are starting to do an okay job. We represent about 6,000 hotels across the world as well, good management group. And that is a much more mature sector. But I think there's a lot more that can be done and a lot more that should be done. But how you budget for it is really, really varied. We have people just have a lump sum that they're happy to give away each year, and that's their company corporate ESG budget. And when I say give away, I mean obviously put to work, but that's what they earmark for that. And then we have some that have on a per bed basis, they allocate anything from£5 per bed to£300 per bed, and that goes towards ESG. And so it is very, very varied. There's no one-size-fits-all approach and that's again why I think it's really important that you get the expertise as and when you need it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah I think there's two roles that are missing frequently in the shared living sector and that's a CTO and a sustainability lead and you rarely see those on executive teams or even just a role in a business like you say it's always just someone's bit part job because they've got an interest in it and I think when we get those two roles of standard, then we'll start to see a shift and a change because there comes accountability and there becomes a drive for improvement.
SPEAKER_01:I think one thing that we say quite often is nobody's won sustainability. You know, it's not completed. You can't get to the end of it. Everyone is on the same path. And I think that it's really refreshing to see some brands be really open and honest about it not being there yet. And bear with us. I saw on Strava, the fitness app the other day, they said we finally, got nighttime product. We're sorry it's taken so long. And I just thought, that's great. People have been asking for that adaptation for ages. And they've said, we've done it now. And we're really sorry that it's taken us this long to get there. And they're the kind of messages that I think we want to see. You can't do that with fire safety. There is no excuse. And there is no, sorry, we're not there yet. But with ESG, we have to wait for the science and technology in a lot of respects to catch up. So everybody's on a journey. And just saying it and communicating it gives people the chance to come on that journey with you. but like you said, Dan, you've got to communicate the data wherever you are, just communicate it because the only way is up. And next year when you communicate it, you can say, well, how well we've done because we've managed to improve three areas of that. So I think saying nothing is not good enough.
SPEAKER_00:Totally agree. And just a little, let you in on a little secret with our consultancy. We've got a four-step process, review, strategize, implement, manage. Now within that review phase, ultimately what that spits out, and that's looking at performance review across everything that you've got, that spits out what we call a materiality assessment, which really is five key themes that you should focus your ESG strategy around. If everybody could do that, go and have a look at your performance and then work out which five key themes you wanted to do, then that would make things a lot easier to then report on. We do now have three operators. There are more too, but three main operators producing really good sustainability reports. UPP, theirs was excellent. Unites, again, very good, really open and transparent, charting the course and Empiric as well. What I liked about all of them is it was, they weren't running from anything. They were being very open about the fact that they're not doing absolutely everything they can because there's an element of commerciality that we need to make sure that ESG doesn't breach the boundaries of effectively. And that's a real challenge because obviously we want to make sure that we're doing as much as we possibly can, but we can't just do everything right now. This has to be a journey. So yeah, it's really important that every operator, no matter the size, whether you have one property or 64, it's really important that you know your impacts, you can report on them and be open and honest about it on a B2B level to your investors, to suppliers, to whoever else, and also hold your suppliers to account as well. Bring them into your procurement policies, do some training with them, make sure they're aware of the contract that you need them to sign, etc. Lots of various things that you can do. And then report to your residents. This is the impact that we're having, but actually this is the impact that you're having how can you minimize your impact or at least have a positive impact and that's across the e the s and the g as well so lots of work still to come on that i think but but it's It's a topic that's definitely not going away. Neither of those are. Fire safety is literally top of the agenda for every investor buying a property at the moment. Then beyond that, looking at ESG, is there a sustainability value-add play here? Like we've seen with Generation Partners and now Student Living purchasing the old Unite properties, they know that there is a green premium there. They can put a load of sustainability measures in place, not just your solar panels or your rainwater harvesting, but more besides. And they can really start to take things forward and show that green premium. So I think there's a real opportunity in both to be belt and braces on fire safety, but also to show the potential and bring about the green premium with ESG in the long term. And with that, I've just checked the clock. We are well out of time. Thanks so much for listening. Let us know what else you want to cover. We are always more than happy to take suggestions. And we look forward to being back with you for episode 22.