Improving housing vouchers and tackling homelessness with special guest Shams DaBaron

Housing New York sheds light on the politics and the public policy shaping the future of New York City housing. 

This week, Jay speaks with Shams DaBaron, aka ‘Da Homeless Hero,’  a homelessness advocate fighting to expand, and reform, housing voucher programs in New York City. 

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Transcript

 This week, we have a special episode of Housing New York. We dive into vouchers with special guest Shams DaBaron. But first, some updates. The housing access voucher program was not included in the state budget, but we are hopeful lawmakers have not dismissed it entirely for this legislative session. The state funded voucher program is widely supported across the spectrum of housing and tenant advocates.

We'll give more success and flexibility to renters in need of assistance.  HAVP is especially important as the number of homeless New Yorkers reaches record highs. You could read all about why HAVP is critically needed in my city limits op ed published Monday evening.  So on today's show, we have homelessness advocate Shams DaBaron to talk about vouchers in New York city, the homelessness crisis, and how they can be an essential tool.

To fix the problem. Let's start housing. New York. 

[Theme]

 Welcome to Housing New York. I'm your host, Jay Martin. Each week we provide analysis of all the news you need to know about New York's ongoing housing crisis. All the opinions of this show are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of CHIP or its members.

We're taping this 14th, and we have our very first guest on this podcast, Jay Martin. Shams DaBaron. Shams, known colloquially as the homeless hero, is a homeless advocate who knows New York City's system from the inside and out. He's experienced homelessness on and off since HF10 and raised his son in the family shelter system up through graduation and achieved a high school diploma.

Shams works closely with the city to improve the homeless system, help people get off the streets. I've known Shams now for a few years as a homeless advocate and a strong champion for all New Yorkers. Shams DaBaron. We're so happy to have him with us on the program. Shams, thank you for being here. Oh, thanks for inviting me and being the first guest.

That's a really good, I like that. Yeah. I'm like, there's no one else we would rather have as our first guest. Appreciate it. And good intersection of. You know, the homeless side of things, you know, something we want to prevent and eliminate and the housing side of things, which represents that solution.

Yeah. So Shams, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us a little bit about your story. I know some people know who you are. Some people know how you got involved in advocacy, but, uh, for those who don't know, tell us a little bit about how you got involved. Okay. So, you know, I, I grew up in the South Bronx in Harlem, uh, in the seventies, In the eighties, I say, I say that I grew up during the gang era of the seventies and the crack era of the eighties.

Um, I'm a product of the foster care system since, well, no, let me correct myself. I'm the product of my parents.  And I, you know, uh, but I was placed in the foster care system at the age of two, moved around from home to home until I landed. Um, Myself and my two brothers in a home that was really good, decent, where I spent most of the foster care, um, early years.

And it's like, I call them my formidable years. Um, so I had great foster parents, um, Mr. and Mrs. Rodriguez. And, um,  during that time, it wasn't all doom and doom. I was a academic star in my school district. I was also, um, one of the pioneers of hip hop helping to develop the culture in the early days before we called it hip hop.

I was real young at the time. And, uh, you know, I, by 10,  I started leaving home, you know, for days or something like that, and that was like my first taste of being in the streets. By 12, I was in a group home, and the group home discharged me permanently into the streets. And so, um, I had to make my way until I met up with someone who had a passion for hip hop and music like myself.

And he brought me into his home. Um, Best friends, and I became a part of their family. You know, so I had the sanctuary of family homes, not realizing that even in that state that's considered homeless as well, not being able to access services and medical, et cetera, et cetera.  But as a, uh, going into adulthood, I began having children.

I started taking care of my children and, you know, it was a little difficult, you know, trying to be a parent and navigate work, etc. So, the experiences where I've had a lot of, you know, in the music business, I've had some success there. Uh, I have a street history, I like to talk about sometimes, not too much, you know, but it was just, you know, trying to navigate childhood, being in these vulnerable conditions and trying to survive and stuff and to actually survive it.

without going to jail. And I saw so many people that that was their trajectory, either jail or death and overcoming that. Um, and then focusing on just trying to be a good parent.  The idea of homelessness didn't, um, you know, it didn't go away. The housing insecurity didn't go away. Not being able to access services in the city.

And still having to take care of my child as a single parent was very difficult.  So, you know, I experienced a homelessness as an adult in the family shelter system. Uh, with my son, raised him through junior high school and high school. So you can imagine the amount of years we spent stuck in family shelters.

Uh, and when he aged out, I, and he, he worked to, um, keep him in a room while I stayed in the street. So that was my single adult homeless experience. Right. And, um, being in the shelters, you know, I've been in some of the worst shelters in the city. Uh, I was always in and out, but it was still every year got worse and worse.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me just stop you there. Cause one of the things I I've always admired about you is that you you've often spoken about changing the perception of about what defines somebody as homeless and you touched on it a little bit. And one of the things I think a lot of people don't understand is why someone would not want to live in a shelter.

You think you're homeless. So you, your choice is to live on the street or to live in a shelter, but a lot of people choose. The street over a shelter. Can you talk a little bit about why they'd want to do that? So  years ago, uh, 40 years ago, 40 years ago, there was this thing, the Callahan decree, which makes New York so unique in that it gives New York a right to shelter New Yorkers or anyone that needs shelter, a right to shelter.

So 40 years ago, it was like the best thing in the world to, uh, combat homelessness in the streets. But what we saw for that same amount of time  is this massive shelter industrial complex being developed throughout our city.  And at a time where, you know what they used to call urban renewal, they call it gentrification.

Now we saw communities like Harlem, the places I grew up in, the South Bronx, Bed Stuy, different places throughout our city, we saw it become redeveloped and start to look a lot nicer than it did in the 80s. But what happened to those of us that were living there, we end up getting displaced. You know, there was this thing they called mass incarceration, you know, um, a lot of people were funneled into that prison industrial complex.

So during this time when our communities are changing, there were two things that was rising, the prison industrial complex and the shelter industrial complex. I don't think people see how lucrative. Of an enterprise, this is.  You know, for me to stay on a cot in a building with 200 people, that cot, which in the congregate shelter system resembles a prison dorm.

Yep. So I may be surrounded in that dorm by like 30 to 50 people, right?  They're paying, at currently the rate is probably about 4, 000. When I was there, it was probably a little more than that, for that person. When I was there, it was about 3, 400,  every month. So, they had these vouchers that never worked, and at my time, they developed a CitiFaps that was going for, I think, 1, 200.

So, with rents being high, definitely higher than 1, 200, they felt it was, I don't know where the sense came that we should keep him on this cot and pay 3, 400 for it. Yeah. I mean, that's where, you know, we started forming a working relationship because, you know, we represent property owners who are actively trying to take in voucher holders.

And you, you formed a good relationship with your property owner who accepted a voucher and you have permanent housing now because of that. And, One of the things we constantly struggle with is explaining to lawmakers how that's more affordable than warehousing people in shelters. Yeah. Getting people into permanent housing with vouchers.

So, to your point, and this is all financial, I don't care if you're rich or poor, if you're in New York City and you pay taxes, this is where your tax money's going, and you, you, you should have something to say about it. So, think about this,  they put me in an environment that resembles a prison. Right? So I might go in simply because I'm homeless.

I don't have no issues, you know, fairly educated person, whatever. But when I go in there, it's like,  the shocking reality of it is,  it feels like I entered a prison.  They parole people from prison there.  They're taking people with mental illness and putting them there. So we're all in this environment that we start to disintegrate. 

We start to become dehumanized.  The food, just what they serve us to eat, is so horrible. So, as I was going year after year, each year, this environment got worse to the point where I said, Uh,  I don't care what the weather is, I'm going in the street.  Believe it or not, I got a sense of my dignity back when I slept on my park bench and established my sense of space.

That I didn't have to worry about the things that went on in those shelters. I'm talking rapes, robberies, you know, extortion. All of these things go on in some of these places. And so it was like, I'd rather try my luck in the streets than to be there. And the streets are not safe, but it was a much safer and much more humane environment.

Then the shelter. So, and just remember there's a cost to this and the cost is not just a 3, 400. Now in there to cope, I had to drink, I had to get a drink, right? It was like, that's the only way I can get through the night. I  have developed a drinking problem.  So now it's out of control. I don't even realize it's a drinking problem to it forms into depression.

Now I'm contemplating suicide.  And I want to kill myself because how did it get this bad for me? And there's no help. There's no way housing is not an option. I've been here for five, six years.  You know, so it was hopeless. It feels hopeless. And so the extra cost of my E. R. Visits every two weeks. I'm in the E.

R. And they're asking me, is it your high blood pressure that I developed or is it the drinking? Which one is it? Was it both right? And I'm like, I gotta get some help.  You know, so I think we have to sort of start to look at what we're actually producing and how we're destroying people by warehousing them without the production of housing.

So while Callahan was great, The right to shelter was great. There was never a right to housing. There was never a focus on let's develop housing for  base of people, for that demographic of people that, you know, might not can afford to live in the big building that we just built in that community. Yeah.

And I think, you know, one thing that happens. You know, when you focus on a shelter system as a solution is out of place, out of mind, you put these people in there and then you, it's a budget line. You put the money to your point, you put the money in and what people don't understand to your point, there's additional costs with everything providing that support.

And then when you give someone a voucher, they think, well, they don't need the wraparound services, additional healthcare, and they think, well, that's additional expense, but you're still saving. Significantly more money because you're not paying for all the overhead and administrative cost of administering this whole shelter system.

And the benefit is when somebody gets paid through a voucher, it's paying for the housing itself and it's going back to them. Property taxes are getting paid. The water is being paid through the city's programs. The building's maintenance is being kept up for the other renters in the building. So, you know, that is why, you know, as an organization that's for property owners, we've embraced vouchers as a way to, to not only, you know, help our buildings financially, but actually to keep people housed.

So, so the myth that's been promoted via media, et cetera, is that property owners don't want to accept vouchers. You know, and there might be some problems. I'm sure there's property owners that, and this is my experience, this is why it was easy to sit down with property owners because I understood some of those fears, not just the reality of how do we pay for this, it's not enough money, whatever.

There was other fears in terms of, you know, if I get a tenant that doesn't work out, this and that, such and such. So, I mean, just, just balance this out. If you got a person and you put them in an environment that dehumanized that person, you give me the house.  At this point, I don't know how to function in society properly, and if it's not on support there, then I might not be the best tenant at some point.

And this, you know, this is not always the case. But, you know, sometimes it might be that one situation that makes it, like, difficult or just makes it challenging along with the fact that, you know, they haven't put, you know, The amount of money into vouchers that could make it more feasible for, uh, property owners to accept it and say, Hey, we can work with this and, and continue to supply housing.

Yeah. I think, yeah, that's a great point. I, more often than not. It isn't a concern of the, of accepting the voucher. It's what happens if something could go wrong. It's a fear of the unknown and you know, other renters bring up concerns. And these are folks again, who've gone from situ terrible situations, either in shelter or street living.

They have homes for the first time in sometimes decades and they need help and they need wraparound services. But again, The argument that property owners are avoiding it is just not been my experience on the property owner side. And I'm glad to hear that from some of your experience, it's generally not the case, but the concerns that come up, we can work around them.

Well, Jay, one of the things that I just wish we would have promoted a little more is when we first sat down and came together with your group, Sponey and other groups, and all of these property owners. You were the one who said, look, let's get you some units right now. I think we were talking about a thousand units.

We're going to find them for you and we want to kind of help you there. And let's do that as a start. And then, you know, let's address some of these issues that make it difficult for us, whether it's getting some support for repairs, et cetera, but we can access thousands of units. We can work on that together with the city.

So it was very hard for me to buy into this narrative that says all these property owners, they're the big enemies. When I got over, I mean, we got a lot of property owners that are saying, look, we want the voucher. I didn't call you. You called me and said, Yes, we're still, we're still in conversations with the mayor's office, um, on a pilot program for those units.

And we're going to, we're going to get that done. Yes. It's just, uh, you know, the logistics of working it out. And to that point, you know, you've been, you've worked with the mayor, you've advised the mayor and you know, it, politics isn't easy. Government isn't easy.  What, what do you think is working with vouchers right now and what do you think isn't working? 

Well, this mayor, Mayor Adams, so you remember the previous mayor, de Blasio, really didn't want to put money in the vouchers. He didn't really want to make it a strong thing. We had to force him to pass intro 146. Um, this mayor understands that housing is the solution to homelessness. Um, Mayor Adams is really focused on a housing first approach.

He's also focused on keeping people in their homes. So, immediately, and this is not even with a conversation, when he entered office, one of the first things he did, I believe within those first 100 days, was he increased the voucher amount, put more money on the voucher, And he also expanded the eligibility, the pool, but that was one of the problems too.

They were only releasing a certain amount of vouchers per month or whatever it was. And so he increased that as well. And the other thing that he has allowed me to do was bring other homeless and formerly homeless people into City Hall to help City Hall figure out ways to address homelessness, housing insecurity, and housing.

And so what that group was also doing was they helped to streamline the voucher process, another big turnoff for a lot of people, which is the process it takes to process that voucher. Um, CitiFAPS, very difficult to process. It's just the paperwork. So a lot of, you know, housing specialists, different people were reluctant to actually get it.

So they try to push the 2010 e voucher on people. You know, hey, you're gonna go see the site. You know, this is easier to get if you get into the supportive housing. Like these days, we're like, wait a minute, hold up. You know, this is because it was like a lot of work. And so what this administration has done with the help of impacted people, is they have streamlined that process significantly.

And here it is, I'm getting people all the time that I've come across on the streets. I make a phone call, get them to Safe Haven. Two months later, they're telling me I'm in my apartment. Yeah. With a voucher. I'm like, what? How? You know how long it took me? Right, right. And, but I'm seeing the process is actually working.

Still a lot more work to do, but it's much better today than it was when we first sat down. Yes, I would agree with that. You know, we, we still have issues obviously and we The biggest one that we constantly hear of is units failing their inspections for, for reasons that are very frustrating, small, little things.

And then the, you know, you have somebody who's waiting, just waiting for that unit. They found the unit, that's where they want to live. And it fails the inspection for something like, um, an electric outlet, uh, cover being broken. And then they have to go back and reschedule the inspection. So there's definitely talk about how to make those inspections go better.

Um, virtual inspections, because like in a real case scenario, if If it was the inspection for that one thing, you might not get an inspector out for another two weeks, three weeks. Then you discover that, oh wait, you know, there's another little  thing that's wrong. So now, and so you got a person that is holding a voucher that's sitting in a shelter maybe, and is like really like getting frustrated.

So one of the negatives of that. Is that sometimes the unit end up going to somebody else. And so they'll say, I saw the apartment. I accepted it. The landlord wanted me. And how come that apartment is not there? And there was a lot of confusion over that. I was confused over that when I heard the stories initially.

Now I understand the process. It might be something as simple as this inspection process. This paperwork process took four months, six months. And, you know, that's a property owner who's not being paid for that empty unit. Who's trying to get that tenant in there. There's no money and you still have to pay the bills, the taxes, the insurer, all those things.

And I think that's, I think that's one of the things that I've found to be so, uh, well, I know I've appreciated that you've brought to the conversation that, you know, frequently we talk to nonprofit organizations and certain advocates.  They just don't care that a property owner is losing money that whole time.

And they only focus on, you know, placement. And I understand that that's their goal. And I, you know, look, I want that to happen too, but if you don't care about the property owner in the process, it kind of makes it hard to solve the problem if you only care about one side of the equation and you've always.

From the moment I met you have talked about how it's important to make sure that the property owner understands that this is a good business decision for them as well to take these vouchers. Yeah. Yeah. And so having a focus on streamlining the process is very important. Makes it easier for the tenant and for the property owner.

Also, having other support, you know, that's why it was important to establish a partnership with the city. Establish a partnership with impacted people, with tenants, with real people. Because if we're in the same room trying to figure out, okay, so these are the challenges. We can collectively figure out what are the best solutions, but in an adversarial situation where it's like, you know, the landlords or the evil empire, the tenants, you know, they're the victims and the city is the bigger monster and that doesn't solve anything.

My thing is, let's come together. Let's figure out what are your issues? What are your issues? You know, tenants have issues. You know, the city might have issues. Let's figure out how we can attack those issues and come up with solutions that make it easier to get people into homes. And there's a lot of things.

So, let me say this. When I stepped out at the Lucerne Hotel, right,  and I wanted to,  I knew, I said, we should sue the city. When de Blasio was trying to move us, right? So, I had a real underlying objective that I didn't share with people. That, I didn't care if we went from one hotel to another, as long as we didn't go back to the shelter.

Right. A hotel's a hotel, who cares, right? Right. But I said, I could use,  I said, what I was going to do, and fortunately I did get a lawyer, uh, Michael, Michael Hiller.  What I wanted to do. was exposed the inefficiencies of the Callahan decree.  When I sat in the shelter, I looked around, I said, this looks like a drug den. 

Why? Why are there not services? You know, people are dealing with depression. Why are there no mental health supports? People were dealing with substance abuse. I had a drinking problem. I didn't have nobody to talk to. I lucked up with the shelter,  provided those services, but it didn't serve the entire shelter population. 

So I said,  this warehousing of human beings and this ecosystem is not productive. It's not helping me.  We have to change that. So when I said,  he's moving us, it's going to affect my mental health.  I'm going to challenge that. Like, I don't want you to affect my, I should have rights. And the city went into court and said, under the Callahan decree, All we have to do is give you three hearts, a cot, and the locker, and the roof. 

We are not obligated under that decree to address your mental health needs, or your substance use needs, or whatever needs you have, only if you have a physical disability and you're a family with children. So I said, wait,  Disabilities, like mental health is a disability, substance use is a disorder is a disability.

Why is that not recognized? There's something wrong with that decree, especially if you're creating this whole warehousing  of human beings throughout the city without a pathway to housing. So, What we did, Jay, was we said in this administration, let's look at those things, so that we can reverse that trend of shelters over housing.

And part of that has to involve opening up the housing stock. We know, as the mayor has said, and many housing advocates have said, but we're no time soon are we going to build our way out of housing. Our housing shortage. It's just not going to happen that way. Yeah. If so, it's going to take a very, very long time, right?

That's where the collaboration with property owners who already have units is so important. Agreed.  Agreed. Um, let me just take a step back. Can you describe to me  how it felt when you got your voucher?  I'll say this because, you know, by the time, like they would, when I started speaking out, they were throwing everything at me.

They had apartments lined up. I could have probably had a, a place in the ward office story.  They just wanted me to go away. So, but the reality was that, you know, cause it's still a lived experience. I'm still was in a hotel at the time, the Lucerne, still homeless. And then. You know, when I made the decision that, okay, I'm going to take the voucher, I've done enough, let me get a place, uh, it was like, because, to be honest, I never really looked at housing as an option going through the system,  so it was like, oh, shoot, it actually worked, and then you kind of have a sense of disbelief because, let me tell you this, I've had vouchers in the past. 

I had those worker vouchers.  Good for a year,  right back in the shelter after that.  Good for a year. You get funnelled into this low wage paying job system. Right. You thinking you're good? Okay. I'm working now. I'm maintaining. I got a roof. Oh yes. Great. Me and my son. We are great.  And the next thing you know, once the voucher ran out. 

It was like, oh, wait a minute, how am I going to get the, I, oh, I don't have enough, oh my god, the electric went off, now it becomes difficult, and it's like, I'm in housing court, I'm facing eviction, I got my three day notice, I'm back at path.  And so, that's another thing I realized is that, you know, when we passed intro 146, I said we have to work with the city to make sure it works. 

I mean, we can celebrate, but I know the city  didn't operate in a way that these vouchers were sustainable. So part of going in with the Adas administration was to make sure that these vouchers are sustainable. So you see things like the vouchers, and this is a lot of work. Between the administration, Jessica,  and all of these agencies working together dealing with Albany because a lot of stuff is state regulated, a thing that people don't know.

And so they had to make a lot of changes to make this a more sustainable voucher, to make it similar. To, uh, section eight vouchers and just look at what the mayor did recently by expanding the voucher usage, meaning that you could use the voucher throughout the entire New York State region. Right. So, you know, giving people another option, you know, besides New York City and, uh, these things are not easy to do.

No. You know, but the administration has been focused. focused on if we're going to have this voucher, we have to make it sustainable and it's still work to do. Yeah. But we've done a lot that, you know, um, in a short amount of time, I want to say that. With your help, I think you've been a huge advocate for it.

Definitely. But there's a lot of great people, you know, and that's one of the things that I always try to articulate to advocates. That's why I bring actual people with lived experience into, um, giving them the seat at the table because they can actually see for themselves that there are a lot of great people that.

work within this administration who really care, you know, even with you guys, the goal is to sit you down with real New Yorkers, uh, real people, real voucher holders. And sometimes I, I'm like, what happened to journalistic integrity? These guys don't do any investigative journalism, right? They want to call Shams for the answer to, uh, someone exiting prison into shelter, like, I never done that.

I don't know. Right. We go talk to someone who lived there. And ask them. And ask them. You know, there was a report one time that said, Oh, there's like 88, 000 units. That are being warehoused. I went crazy when I saw you. So did I. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like,  where did you get that number from? So I'm calling all around.

Show me where you get that number from because the advocates now they're doing rallies saying, you know, open up the ADA. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, it's not 88, 000. Nice. Trust me when I tell you. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that would be almost 10 percent of the rent stabilized housing stock. And well, I think, you know, and obviously I deal with this all the time, but it's like, they have the story in their mind.

They want to write already and they're calling around to get the quote that fills the story instead of writing the story they discover. Right. And had they talked to us, they'd have found out there was 20, And that's, that's not a little bit. That's a lot of apartments. We want to fill them, but if the rent's 500 and it hasn't been renovated in decades, and I know you have a great relationship with your property owners.

So you've seen some of these units, like it costs a lot of money to put them back on the market and you want to do so in a way that you  Meets the laws and the requirements, but you can also get a return on the investment or else it makes more sense to lock the door. And that doesn't make any sense in a housing shortage. 

And, and so these are why we have to have the discussions there. Are people gonna say, you know what, , and you face criticism for this, by the way, for, for being like a rational person that wants to hear both sides. Yeah, definitely. My thing is, my approach from day one was always solution. Like, like when we were at the Lucerne, I'm gonna get to what you said when we was at the Lucerne. 

I listened to the community that was opposing us and I used their arguments to force the shelter provider, you know, to do more. I leveraged it. I said, if you don't want them to complain, why don't you do this? And they did it. Like,  so, I didn't look at it like, oh, these people are saying these bad things or whatever.

I didn't do that. I said, okay, some of this stuff I'm not even paying attention to, but  when they're making a real rational point, I'm not going to ignore that. And I understood their viewpoint.  So, it's the same approach. It's like, what are the solutions? And in order to come up with the solution, you have to listen to all stakeholders.

And that's how you're gonna come up with the best solution. So, I'm not necessarily here to say who's right or wrong. I just need to say, okay, I heard you, heard you, heard you.  Okay. Let's come up with a solution that makes it a win win situation. Um, but as much as we can, and shams, you're not going to get everything you want, but if I get a little something more than I had when I came in and you're happy and I'm happy, then Hey, let's keep it moving.

Well, let's say I could give you everything you want. Let's say I have a blank check for a billion dollars and I can give it to you to fix housing in New York.  What would be the first thing you'd fix? Whew.  . . That's, that's a great question. As challenging as it is. You just caught me off guard. Okay. . Well, I'm,  take your time.

Okay. So I think that this administration, let's think of all of that they deal with in their budget, right? Um, and City Council, because I think they're in total agreement with this. In order to open up the houses that produce must housing, we have to look at the laws on the books, particularly zoning laws.

Zoning laws which were created in the past under racist policies to exclude certain groups from certain communities and stuff, we're still living by that. And we have to look at that and start to change that so that we can produce more housing. So I would definitely have to take some of that money and get to those legislators in order to reverse all of those things that make producing housing such a difficult thing or an undoable thing in certain places.

And then, you know, I would definitely, I mean, a billion dollars is not really a lot of money when you think about it. No, no, it does go quickly. Yeah, it goes quickly. Especially in this day and age, yeah. But I would definitely focus on, uh, producing housing that really looks good, rich in amenities. And that targets various income groups, you know, I think a lot of us that come from poor communities do not want to continue to live in poor communities.

So we want to see things like a gym, a  yoga studio, whatever. We want those things in our communities and stuff and we want to live in property. That has that. And we are okay. You know, you look at places like, you know, that are gentrified and you can see people living side by side without a lot of incidents and stuff like that.

The only negative is that we haven't lifted, economically, we haven't lifted up the people who've been poor. And if we can change the economics, of that community and make sure that those people can stay in the community, those people can thrive in the community, then we can have a more livable and decent environment that is good for everybody and not just someone who might, could afford to live there now. 

I think those are good starts. I think that that'll work. Do you have any interest in running for office yourself one day? Oh, everybody asks me that. Yeah. You know, um, the type of person I am and doing the work that I do is very challenging, very challenging. I've had a lot of people who were with me at one point.

Because, you know, I was out there just going hard and stuff like that. But the minute I made a decision to work because the administration that we have now, they want to work with me. Right. So the minute I made that decision, it was like, I looked around and none of those people were there with me anymore.

So that's disheartening because I don't do this for money. No one pays me. I don't work for anybody. But it allows me independence that I don't see a lot of other people have. I don't know everything, you know, I have my lived experience. I know a little something something, but it still allows me to have my voice.

My voice is not lost. I'm not compromised. If you go back to my first public speech, all of my writings, It's a consistent thread. I always said, I want to go from being the homeless hero to the housing hero. Why the housing hero? Because that's the solution. I want to be a part of the solution, not keep maintaining the problem or the status quo or whatever it is.

I want to eliminate homelessness. I want to eliminate the need for shelters except for an emergency temporary basis, which is, of course we need that. But at the same time, we don't need a shelter industrial complex. So, I think in terms of, um, I've been doing great. I have a lot of support. I mean, all across the city, rich, poor.

And so that's, that's a great thing. I think, you know, each year I challenge myself to do something different. You know, if I was the advocate at the LUSA in this year, the next year I'm going to influence the political landscape. So I'm endorsing candidates, I'm doing this and doing that. And then with the new administration, I'm giving other impacted people a seat at the table.

This year, I'm working laser sharp focus on housing and housing development. Right. So I have major projects coming through over in one community, over 800 units. You know, I'm working, but I do say when I start to see that, okay, things are moving slow.  Why are you arguing over this when this is a simple fix? 

I'm like, wait, is this because of the politics?  The politics, like you represent the community.  Do what's in the best interest of the community. When I start to see stuff like that, I start to say, Hmm,  maybe they need Okay. Yeah. A challenge. A challenge. Yeah. You know, so you never know. Yeah. Oh, so as that threat's there, you better than keep them on their toes.

Yeah. You know, never let them take your voice away from you. I think that's the most important thing. Your advocacy. I know. I look forward to continuing to work with you and closing with any final thoughts you want to leave us with as we wrap up. You know, I think that what I want to see for this city is for all stakeholders to come together.

and work collectively in order to solve our housing crisis.  It takes collaboration to make that work. Confrontation is only going to go by so far.  You know, the city runs by laws and, you know, the people you represent operates by laws. according to laws and, and different things from finances and, you know, taxes, insurance, those are just the realities.

So we have to find a way to make this sustainable for all stakeholders. The myth is that it's just the homeless guy that's on the train, or there's still a mental illness, a substance abuse, that's not really the number of homelessness, that's a small minority compared to the overwhelming homeless population that are actually working people, working class people who can't access a home.

So we have to come together, you and the people you represent. Play a vital role in that without you. It's going to be difficult. We, you know, we do in the city of yes, and we intend on producing a lot more housing than has been done any time in history. If we can get the support that we're looking to get, but that's still not enough.

Right? So when you look at, you said 20, 30, 000 units, let's just say that  we should be razor sharp on how to access that in a sensible way. And so, if we look at, let's get back to the shelter industrial complex,  think about that money that's going there.  Imagine if we said, we're going to shift the focus, we're going to shift the money.

And we took this money and said, instead of the shelter,  let's put it towards the housing, let's put it towards the voucher, let's put it towards the repairs. Let's make it more feasible  and we can put checks and balances in place that prevents abuse because that's something that always comes up. Well, people are going to abuse it, people are going to do it.

And then there's some of us who says, well,  if you got 29, 000 people housed  and 1, 000 people took advantage of the system. Right.  It's 29, 000 people housed. Yeah, exactly. So let's try to find a way that we can collectively come together  through the pilot program and get those voucher holders. Another thing, we've gone back to the shelter, is we want to also create a different type of shelter that a person like me who may be going through depression, I can get the support in the shelter before I get to the housing.

This came from you all. This didn't come from me. Let's create a situation where if, you know, Sham was a problem tenant because you don't know what's happening in my life. So now I'm depressed and I might be playing my music just to, whatever. I've done it. That's why I say I can see it, right? But you got neighbors who are complaining.

Yeah. Right? So let's make it where we're not trying to evict Shams. You know, we know Shams came from a shelter or whatever, whether you know it or not, but let's call somebody that can go and intervene on Shams behalf and see if he needs some additional support. That person may come, call, and find out. Ah.

You know, my friend died or something, and I just been depressed and I'm now I'm getting the support. So now the music's at a, at a great level that everyone could accept. I'm getting the support and I'm remaining in my home. I couldn't agree more. You know, I'm often tangling with the tenant advocates on their side.

And I think my biggest frustration is, what you just described is Treating you and treating folks who are placed in housing as adults, having an adult conversation. I know you're suffering. I know you're going through something, but I'm not going to ignore it. I have to deal with it. And I'm going to have a conversation with you and talk it out.

My biggest frustration is that the tenant advocacy, some, some, not all, don't treat a lot of the tenants as adults. They want to ignore the problems that they're dealing with and just say they're victims to your point that you made before. And that they, they, All they care about is the cheapest rent possible.

It's all that they were victims of capitalism or whatever it may be,  but they're not, they're adults and they need help, but that doesn't mean you can't have conversations with them and figure out what the problem is and have that dialogue with them and not treating them like children that they need everything given to them, but have them on a respectful level at the same table as you having that dialogue.

So being an impacted person has put me in a unique position to speak from lived experience. Like I know, no one pays me. I'm not an advocate to that extent. I work for an organization.  I believe, just from my lived experience, I don't want to talk for everybody, I'm just saying from my lived experience.  If you give a man a fish, you feed him for the day. 

That person's gonna be right back the next day asking for another fish.  If you teach the person a fish,  I'm going to be out there fishing myself, get my own fish. So what we want to see reversed is that we don't want a handout. We want to hand up, right?  My objective, and I'm not the super expert on this. I definitely work with a lot of professionals and people to try and figure this out.

But my objective is to take people economically distressed, financially challenged, or whatever words people are using.  And create better opportunities for them. Don't just funnel us into a low wage paying system. Help us expand our education,  help us learn a trade, help us. Finance our creative ideas and our businesses,  put us in communities or put moneys and resources in communities that can develop us or help us to develop in a way that we are self sustaining.

That's really the path that we want. We don't want to be on welfare forever. We don't want to have to depend on a voucher forever. Let's set the path that we can own the homes, that we can develop the homes.  And stuff like that. And we have that capability. And I'm trying, in my humble way, to show the example of that. 

To say, look, the same dude that was on the park bench that you probably walked past on the train.  That same dude  just put up that building. And is housing people. You know, and create in a good thing within this community,  you know, and this is where  you and your constituents can look and say, it is possible that we can take these vouchers and we can actually have great tenants. 

But that's never going to happen if we're not in the same room having these conversations. 

Shams, again, appreciate it, man. And as long as you keep. Speaking truth to power,  living your lived experience, as you said, and breaking down fences of what different peoples who normally wouldn't be in the same room together, who are told not to be in the same room together. Yeah. We're going to solve problems.

Yeah. I really think that, and I just really appreciate you being here today. Thank you, and thank you for inviting me. I'm here anytime, you know, and you know, we got work to do and we're going to do it. It's not going to happen overnight, but I am confident and I'm seeing that we do have great New Yorkers throughout this city on all spectrums.

We don't always agree on everything, but when we get to the point where we're working together, uh, we're going to do some great things. So thank you for having me and I appreciate coming down here and, and, and joining you. 

Couldn't have said it better myself. Shams. That was Shams DaBaron. I'm Jay Martin. This is Housing New York. See you all next week.