Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
Welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show Podcast where we dive deep into all things health, sex, menopause, relationships, parenting, communication and more! Hosted by a passionate nurse with years of frontline experience, we bring you expert interviews, real-life stories, and the latest insights on staying healthy aging. Nothing is off limits as we delve into overall health, sexual health, mental health, and sexual health. Whether we’re breaking down medical myths, discussing cutting-edge treatments, or chatting with top health professionals, this show is your go-to for practical advice and inspiring conversations.
Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
The Bully In Your Workplace
Uncover the intricate dynamics of workplace bullying with insights from global expert Linda Crockett, who sheds light on the often-overlooked series of harmful behaviors that plague professional environments. Together, we dissect the critical differences between harassment and psychological harassment, emphasizing the ongoing, targeted actions that can severely affect mental well-being. Linda shares invaluable strategies for documenting these behaviors and recognizing early warning signs, empowering individuals to protect themselves and address these toxic interactions effectively. Moreover, we delve into the mental health consequences of workplace bullying and the importance of trauma-informed training for leaders and first responders, highlighting the need for supportive environments where employees can safely speak up.
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Speaker 1:Good evening, welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in, first foremost for those of you in the Vancouver or West Vancouver area. I want to tell you about a menopause matters event that I'm having at the K-Meek Center in West Vancouver on November 20th from 6.15 to 9.45 PM, we have board certified OBGYN menopause specialist. Dr Kirsten Gustafson will be the keynote speaker. I'll be speaking to you about vaginal bladder and sexual health. We're also going to be talking about obesity, weight management, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, and also menopause and the workplace. So get your tickets on Eventbrite. Would love to see you there.
Speaker 1:You know this particular subject is something that I have been talking about for a long time and I've also experienced it myself, and recently somebody reached out to me because they wanted to tell me about a situation that was happening to them at work, and my advice to them was document, document, document. It sounds like it's the start of a workplace bullying campaign and in my opinion, these are campaigns. So the quote that I saw on LinkedIn was bullies don't go after the weakest link, they go after the strongest. The most likely targets of workplace bullying is the kind of worker many employers dream of Workers who are highly self-sufficient, judicious and creative and who demonstrate internal motivation, possess a benevolent worldview and refrain from office politics and one-upmanship, in a word, the self-directed. And this particular person is self-directed. They had worked on a big project and it was, of course there was this emergence, this emergency. It was urgent, they had to do it, they worked extra, they worked extremely hard on it and then the person pulled it on them. Anyway, it sounded like a problem to me, and so this is still a problem. In fact, 30% of people in the workplace are bullied.
Speaker 1:So, in order to discuss this fully, and so to understand how to recognize workplace bullying and what you can do about it, is Linda Crockett. She is a global workplace psychological safety expert and the founder at the Canadian Institute of Workplace Bullying Resources. She joins me on the line from Edmonton, alberta. Good evening, linda. How are you?
Speaker 2:Good evening, I am doing great. Thank you for having me. It is such an important topic that we're focusing on today.
Speaker 1:It's such an important topic and people don't recognize it. I think that's one of the big problems they just think somebody's giving them a hard time at work, when, if you look deeper into it, oftentimes these bullies have a long history of choosing people to target, to bully in the workplace and it's insidious, it's slow, it's intentional, it's typically a campaign and it actually can make people pretty seriously mentally ill. I often say to people protect your mental health, understand what this is. Document, document, but I'm no expert. You are the expert. What exactly is workplace bullying?
Speaker 2:to start, we have so many definitions. If everybody looked at all the provincial legislation federal legislation. There's all these different wordings and I guess you would get a good understanding, but it can be confusing.
Speaker 1:So to simplify it, when you look at the definition of harassment that could be one incident or a series of incidents.
Speaker 2:When you look at the definition of psychological harassment, which is one is bullying, it is never a one-time incident. It is a series of negative behaviors, tactics, actions. So it's not just me rolling my eyes at you or gossiping or spreading rumors or lying. It's a variety of these behaviors verbal, non-verbal, through the mail, through text, through in person. However, it may be over a period of time research used to say six months or more, but we're we're a growing awareness, you know. So I would say three months or more, directed towards a specific person or a specific group of people. So I'm mary poppins to everybody else, but I'm actually quite targeting you or a group of people, with or without conscious intent to cause some form of harm.
Speaker 2:And when we talk about three months, or more that three months prior to three months matters. That's when we used to say oh, that's just the way they are, or it's a personality conflict, or it's abrasiveness or sarcasm or incivility. Those are your early warning signs. If you don't catch it there, it's going to evolve to psychological harassment or psychological violence.
Speaker 1:And how do people recognize that very first incident? You know that very first time that just something doesn't seem quite right. I had somebody speak to me about their manager who, when this person did not even make a mistake, other people were doing the same thing at work, but it was something that the manager didn't like. They berated them on the phone for 30 minutes. That didn't happen once, it didn't happen twice, it happened at least three times and then I haven't had contact with the person. But I imagine that is continuing and this person thought I'm new to the industry. This is just what happens. This is a boss. They can treat me this way. How do people recognize this is inappropriate?
Speaker 2:Well, that example of half hour berated on the phone, that's a huge warning bell right there. That's a big one, but unfortunately they're usually a lot more subtle than that. So the first thing I would do is know the definition.
Speaker 2:Learn about this, know your legislation, know your company policies and procedures. Be informed. The next thing I would say is trust your gut. If something happened and that felt icky but you don't have words to it, at least document that, what happened and how it made you feel. Start to notice these things if it's happening more and more and more. If it's a bad day and it doesn't happen again, that's different. If it's a bad week and it doesn't happen again, that's different. But over a couple of weeks, if you're getting these subtle little bells that go off, little flags that go that hey, that's wrong, hey, that's not right, trust your gut, don't ignore it.
Speaker 2:I've seen thousands of people over the last 14 years of doing this work and I can tell you one trait that is very much we all have in common because I'm a survivor as well we all have in common is that we ignore those signs. We ignore the knot in our gut. We ignore the anxiety that we feel when we walk into a room and suddenly everybody's being quiet. We ignore the headache or the insomnia. Stop ignoring that stuff. Start listening, start documenting and start talking.
Speaker 1:And oftentimes you know they move from target to target. Is that a fair statement?
Speaker 2:Yes, Well, they're looking for different reactions, sure, but, like I said, if this person is specifically targeting you and then they go to somebody else, that's very possible. But if they're coming back to you and going to others, I mean it's happened when I went through it.
Speaker 2:I wasn't the only one. I was a medical social worker at the time, working in a cancer treatment center the last place that you would think that you would get bullied when you're dealing with death and dying. But I wasn't the only one. There was a psychologist that was being targeted. There was another office admin people that were being targeted, so they're not necessarily just picking on one, they could be picking on a few. That's a pattern in their behavior. Document what you watch. Document what you feel. Document what they're doing to you.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, and what I was referring to more specifically was around. You know, I have been bullied as well, and I learned that the particular bully who targeted me had actually been investigated in the workplace. Five people had filed complaints about racial discrimination and workplace bullying, and so it's actually quite validating when you hear that, when you think it wasn't me, because you always have this little bit of doubt, even though I documented my situation that had occurred over a year. I never met the person in person, but the person had bullied me and, as you mentioned, through email and texts and phone calls, and was just nasty and angry and falsely accusing me of things. But I knew what it was. I knew I had no control over it.
Speaker 1:I made some mistakes. I should never have met with that person without somebody, even on the phone, without somebody listening in. I should never have. I should have reported it, you know so. There are things that I in I should never have. I should have reported it, you know so. There are things that I know that I should have done, but I'm a busy person, I couldn't do it and it wasn't affecting me mentally because I recognized what it was, and, and so that's is the big thing is that people will think, oh, they're just having a bad day, that's the way they are. I don't want the trouble. We don't want that trouble around here. Or recently, somebody said you should have reported it to so-and-so. We had a meeting the other day and they said you know, just be nice to each other. This isn't about being nice to each other or not being nice to each other, is it? This is, you know, I like to think there's something wrong with bullies.
Speaker 2:There has to be something wrong with bullies. There is something wrong, and you just said a whole lot that I want to respond to, because I want to go back to the fact that this person that you dealt with was what had been reported on before and the problem with these, you know, non disclosures and gag orders is that we don't get to find out that we're at risk now.
Speaker 2:This person has actually bullied or harassed before. What about the people that they're about to go do it with now Because you didn't deal with it? People, what they do with these bullies is they transfer them into other positions or they promote them, which is actually giving them a pat on the back and telling them the bad behavior is okay, but what we need to do is do better. You know, reference checking and those people who are getting those reference check calls. They need to be responsible, to be truthful, that they've had problems with these people in the past. So holding someone accountable means making sure that they're sent to services where they will change these behaviors, and that needs to be mandatory. And that's the cases I get. When they want these employees that have been substantiated as being bullies or harassers or aggressors, they want to keep them because they're good. They do have great skills.
Speaker 2:And yeah many of them do, but they need to change these behaviors.
Speaker 2:They're sent to someone like me on a mandatory basis and if they don't show up, they're terminated, and that's what should be happening that these behaviors are, they're changed before you send them off to go harm other people, like what's happened in your case. So that's something that we need. That's a problem. Ndas are a problem not sending them to qualified services and when I say qualified, I mean people who are, like me, trauma informed, have the qualifications to do these kinds of assessments probably therapists and have skills like coaching skills to help change these behaviors, identify those barriers on why these people behave that way and what's stopping them from changing.
Speaker 1:I think you have to have a very progressive organization in order to do that, because what happens is the organization hires an outside firm to come in and do an investigation and, of course, that outside firm is going to be biased and is going to be on the side of the person who is paying them. I mean, it has to be. You know, there can be no other outcome than finding the bully, you know, exonerating the bully and blaming the five, six, ten. However many people have complained about that bully. And one of the other problems is oftentimes those targets don't have any documentation and they actually sound crazy. When they try and say, well, they did this and they did that, it's like, well, that's not anything, that's not much. But the documentation helps people to, helps you to see that this is a campaign, this is persistent, this is going on and on and on. It would drive someone crazy.
Speaker 2:It's not, I can't say. It's always a person, it's always a campaign. So let me speak to that. You did use the word validation before and I want to speak to that. How important it is for people to feel validated, because the intent, one intention is to make you look bad or sound crazy or or really really too sensitive. All that you're the problem. That's often the intent to avoid being being accused, to be avoid, to avoid being accountable. So validation is a skill that we all need to learn to help each other. Even if you've seen something happen or didn't see it happen, you can validate. That must have been awful hard.
Speaker 2:You also use use the word should, should, should. I should have reported, I should have done that. How do you, when you're in that, you're in the thick of it and in the mud of it you can't see straight. You know we're dealing with trauma, we're dealing with high stress. We tend to like narrow our vision and just try to get through another day. So I wouldn't shame and feel bad because you didn't should. You didn't do that.
Speaker 2:You did the best you could, but what we do need to do is become informed. Take trauma-informed training on this topic, not a one-hour webinar not a two-hour webinar, a full day, or the whole module which we offer trauma-informed, in-depth on prevention, intervention, repair and recovery options. That's one thing I would say. But I would also say there's a lot of bullies out there that are not aware They've gotten away with it for so long.
Speaker 2:Typical bullies are not self-insightful anyway but they're not all narcissists or psychopaths, sociopaths, and when they're on that side of that spectrum, maureen, I do believe it's deliberate, I do believe it's campaign of psychological violence, but there's an awful lot of bullies out there that just happened to get away with it for so long. They got rewarded, they got promoted they got bonuses and they were trained and they were hired to be that way.
Speaker 2:So that's the way they learned and those are the ones I get to work with. The other ones don't come in, they don't. Everybody else is to blame, but the ones I get to work with. It's actually part of the best job I do. The best work I do because I know I'm ultimately helping create change and helping the targets by working with these difficult people.
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Speaker 1:Maybe this is about leadership. You know, people are put in positions. They go from a lowly position and then they get a better title, if you will. They may not get much more pay, or you know, um, but they have this inflated sense of ego I'm the boss, I'm the one that is going to command you.
Speaker 1:And, and you know, they don't work to earn somebody's respect and respect is earned and I think they have this false idea that this is the way to be a good leader to boss people around. Literally, you can say whatever you want to them, do whatever you want, frighten them, you know, threaten their jobs, which is another common occurrence as well. You know, I hear so many people say you know, I'm afraid I'm going to lose my job, and that's often the outcome. Uh, people do lose their jobs or their contracts or or whatever, but oftentimes people leave the workplace. Great workers leave the workplace and retention is an issue. Um, I do also want to talk about the bottom line for companies as well, and I and I think your program is amazing Sign me up, basically, and also sign up the people who would be managers and supervisors and bosses.
Speaker 2:Well, I want to speak to that because we do do trauma-informed leadership training and actually I call it trauma-informed training for first responding professionals. So that's leadership, hr investigators, mediators and it's so critical that they take the trauma-informed training because those investigators are are actually causing further harm. You talk about a lawyer coming in to do an investigation and they're just black and white. They're not looking at the psychological injuries, the human being there and some of that.
Speaker 2:Those questions the way that they're put forward is really actually accusatory or triggering, especially if you're investigating someone who's still in recovery. There's so many layers to this, maureen, and not all investigators are. I think if we remove the money aspect of it, you know that the employer is paying for it. I think we're going to see better investigations.
Speaker 2:But I also want to talk about the bystanders. There's an awful lot of reasons why bystanders don't come forward, and you already named one of them the process fails. Why would I come forward if the process is failing? Or why would I come forward if I know I'm going to be targeted next? I've been bullied before. Why would I want to be bullied again? So we need to work with bystanders and help them through whatever barrier, because a lot of those barriers are valid.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and people put their heads down. You know they see something, they know something's occurred, somebody's reported something to them and they do nothing about it, even if they say they're going to do something about it. I had a patient in my clinical practice who came in. She was working in a startup. You know I just feel like start, it's my perception I have no data to back this up but that startups are dangerous, can be dangerous places, because there's you know it's long hours, it's low money, it's hopefully to be rich two years down the road and there's a lot of bullying that goes on there.
Speaker 1:And this particular patient came in and was extremely distressed and fearful that the police were coming to their house and afraid that they were hacking her computer.
Speaker 1:And the doctor actually thought and she was having stress at work and she said that they were giving them such a hard time and all of this centered around the workplace and they were working extremely long hours. And the doctor actually thought that they were psychotic because they had a little bit of suicidal ideation. And you know it's not an unreasonable thought. But you know my thought, given my experience, having been bullied in the workplace, and understand, speaking to so many people about it that this was workplace bullying. Anyway, the patient went off to a psychiatrist and that, ultimately, was the diagnosis that the patient was, you know, extremely stressed as a result of work, had family support and was able to actually, you know, work them, you know, extremely stressed as a result of work, had family support and was able to actually, you know, work them, you know, recover basically with great family support and understanding what it was. But this can be so detrimental to people's health, correct?
Speaker 2:This can be fatal, you know so. I've had cases too where psychiatrists really didn't understand this kind of injury, so they diagnosed them as being paranoid. No, this actually creates paranoia, and some of that's very valid, because everybody's denying what you feel, what you see, what you hear. You've got this train wreck coming that's going to destroy your career. You see the train wreck and everybody's going. I don't see it. So it's crazy-making and it does make you feel a little bit paranoid. And that's going, I don't see it. So it's crazy making and it does make you feel a little bit paranoid. Then that's why they need to see people who've been trained in this area that really understands this kind of injury. We need more psychiatrists to take this training, more doctors. I teach a lot of doctors, but I also teach therapists, because a lot of therapists are not trauma informed, and so, again, this is why this kind of training is really important.
Speaker 2:I want to talk about documenting for your mental health Documenting as you mentioned earlier, is very important for proving what's going on, for showing examples, very necessary, especially if there's a complaint and there's an investigation. But I say also, document for your mental health, because this is crazy. Making your clarity starts to go out the window. You start to self-doubt, you start to forget things because you're exhausted, you're not sleeping anymore and everything starts to get blurry. So start to document right away to maintain your clarity, because if you maintain your clarity, you're going to maintain your confidence, because that's the second thing that goes out the window. You start to self-doubt, you start to wonder if you're the problem. You start to isolate because you wonder if you're the problem, you're feeling vulnerable, you start to get anxiety, you start to have panic attacks and again you're not sleeping. So document for your clarity and your confidence, because that's what's going to keep your courage clear as well. You're going to keep your courage in order to, when you're ready, make that complaint.
Speaker 2:And when you make that complaint, you're going to have that consistency because you have that documentation and with that consistency your credibility is going to be stronger. So document for your mental health so that you're not laying in bed at 3 in the morning. Did I write that down? What about this? Did I write that down? A lot of my clients have notes in the kitchen and in the bathroom and in the bedroom and in the car.
Speaker 2:Don't do that. Put it in one binder, either by month and by year, so that you have clarity and confidence. You've got to keep that. That's one thing.
Speaker 1:That's such great advice. I remember the first time that I was bullied and this often, often happens to people repeatedly I just wrote it in a notebook. I kept the notebook under my bed at the end of the day. I just wrote everything that happened and that was very helpful. I actually did take that. You know. I did get a lawyer and I filed a complaint and did end up getting a workplace bullying settlement. But I signed an NDA. You know I didn't want to do this. This was my lawyer forced me to do this literally said he would sue me if I didn't sign that NDA.
Speaker 1:Another time I was, it was by a physician and you know I learned that the physician had applied for a position at this particular health authority and when it was learned that I went and complained about him and and the who I complained to actually shared with me which was awesome that they had a posting and this particular doctor had um applied for the posting and eight female physicians said if you hire that doctor, we are all quitting and so that doctor basically will never work in that health authority again. But you know you said such great given, such great information. I mean we could go on and on and talk about this. What's the one tip that you would give to targets of bullies before we have to go?
Speaker 2:Well, Maureen, I didn't get to speak to the injuries and when it comes to non disclosures, people need to look up an organization called Can't Buy Me Silence, so that's about NDAs. As far as my last tip, this can impact your mental health to the point where you have PTSD and if you have a previous diagnosis then you're at higher risk and suicidal ideation and we know of many cases of death by suicide all ages from the age of eight years old up to seniors.
Speaker 2:So this is a very serious condition when it impacts your mental health. When it's physical health we're talking about, if you hold your stress in your gut, then you're going to have a gastrointestinal diagnosis.
Speaker 1:We're looking at heart conditions especially men who are shoving all that down because we've taught them to suck it up.
Speaker 2:We're looking at heart attack, stroke. We now have some research about this kind of cumulative long-term stress and cancer but there's also inflammation in the brain. So please take that serious and just Google search the bullied brain and you'll get all kinds of research on how this is impacting your brain. So if you have memory loss, you can't focus, you can't concentrate, almost feeling like you're ADHD. That could be inflammation in your brain. This is far more serious than anybody realized. So think about not only yourself and your loved ones. Think about your children going to work. It's bad enough. They're getting bullied in school. This is much worse in the workplace. So please take this more seriously.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Linda Crockett. That's awesome advice. I'm definitely going to have you back because I'd really like to continue this conversation. It's so common Pleasure having you on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:That was Linda Crockett, global Workplace Psychological Safety Expert, founder at the Canadian Institute of Workplace Bullying Resources, and I'm Maureen McGrath, and this is my Health Show podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. If there's someone you know that could benefit from this episode, please feel free to share. Thanks so much for tuning in. I'm Maureen McGrath and you have been listening to the Sunday Night Health Show podcast. If you want to hear this podcast or any other segment again, feel free to go to iTunes, spotify or Google Play or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. You can always email me nursetalk at hotmailcom or text the show 604-765-9287. That's 604-765-9287. Or head on over to my website for more information, maureenmcgrathcom.
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