JOELLE WELLINGTON: Crafting thrilling books and crocheting bags

Joelle Wellington's debut novel "Their Vicious Games" is giving "Hunger Games" meets "The Bachelor" with dark academia vibes. You're welcome for this delightful competition for a man and a scholarship.... to the death.

But also, we love crafting so there are some artsy side conversations.

FOLLOW JOELLE

BUY THE BOOKS (Bookshop):
Their Vicious Games
The Blonde Dies First

BUY THE BOOKS (Amazon):
Their Vicious Games
The Blonde Dies First

Transcript

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;04;02
Speaker 1
I can feel the specter of my editor over you being like, be quiet.

00;00;09;06 - 00;00;38;00
Speaker 2
Hi, and welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stephanie Cutter, literary hype Lemon and today's author conversation is with an author that I got to host a panel for, and that is Joelle Wellington. She wrote, They're vicious games. So we did a panel in New York, Comic-Con and this shiny book got signed there. So we we've decided to meet up for a few minutes at Yourfirst 20, 23 in Charleston, South Carolina to talk about the shenanigans that happened in this book.

00;00;38;00 - 00;00;48;18
Speaker 2
And there there are a lot and just kind of just kind of hang out and get to know Joel a little bit. So here's my conversation with Joel. You were you also as an invited guest.

00;00;48;19 - 00;00;50;10
Speaker 1
I yes, I met you, all of us.

00;00;50;13 - 00;00;55;09
Speaker 2
What is it like for you for your debut to book to get this kind of enthusiast love behind it?

00;00;55;09 - 00;01;14;11
Speaker 1
It's so like, I don't know. I feel like I've gotten myself into thinking that no one reads my books and then I like and I, I continue to move through the world that way. And then I'm on the way to breakfast, and somebody is like, well, and I'm like, what? And it's like, we thought we recognized you. I was like, I know you like it.

00;01;14;18 - 00;01;20;17
Speaker 1
Like that kind of thing. Like, I'm like, oh, people do read my books, and, like, it's just such an honor. I'm so excited to be here.

00;01;20;17 - 00;01;36;23
Speaker 2
I mean, it's a good book. Thank you. Your novel that is out in the world now. It's called Their Vicious Game. So for anybody who hasn't seen it, which I don't understand, if you haven't seen it because I am getting spammed by it, I have to copy like I get the targeted ads for it. So tell us about their vicious games.

00;01;36;26 - 00;01;42;10
Speaker 1
OK, so their vicious games is people keep calling it a dark academia, which I guess.

00;01;42;11 - 00;01;43;05
Speaker 2
It has evolved.

00;01;43;05 - 00;02;04;06
Speaker 1
It has a vibe, but it is a satirical thriller about a young black girl named Adina Walker who has lost her acceptance to her College of choice. And to get it back, she has to enter a competition called The Finish, which she thinks is like different, like word teasers and etiquette lessons. But really, it's a game of deadly proportions.

00;02;04;19 - 00;02;07;11
Speaker 2
It's like Hunger Games meets The Bachelor with dark academics.

00;02;07;12 - 00;02;16;02
Speaker 1
Exactly. Heavy on The Bachelor, heavy on The Bachelor. I always like. But remember The Bachelor? They're fighting over a man.

00;02;16;14 - 00;02;18;01
Speaker 2
So to the death.

00;02;18;12 - 00;02;19;13
Speaker 1
To the death.

00;02;20;06 - 00;02;22;02
Speaker 2
How did you come up with this story? Idea?

00;02;22;10 - 00;02;43;24
Speaker 1
I watched the movie Ready or Not, which is one of my favorite movies, but I had always thought that it had it pushed farther enough in terms of its themes. It's about a young woman who marries into a very wealthy family and she's hunted in a game of hide and seek by her in-laws. And I thought it was a really interesting commentary on class, but it didn't push hard enough on that.

00;02;43;24 - 00;02;59;15
Speaker 1
It was just like a bit of fun. And so I really wanted to, like, really push that. And at the same time is the pandemic. And I was watching my Comfort watches, which is The Bachelor. And so I combined those things because I was like, that would be fun.

00;02;59;22 - 00;03;04;13
Speaker 2
And I understand they're vicious games was not your first choice and title.

00;03;04;17 - 00;03;05;07
Speaker 1
No.

00;03;05;07 - 00;03;09;25
Speaker 2
And you did something very dramatic because you were so sold on your title, you know? Talk about that.

00;03;09;25 - 00;03;28;29
Speaker 1
Yes. So first of all, the original title was Blood Sport, which I have tattooed on my body right there, right here because I loved it so much. I was so attached. But when we were talking about it, my editor was like, Hey, I am so sorry, but we have to change the title. And I was like, What do you mean?

00;03;29;09 - 00;03;47;15
Speaker 1
She was like, Well, echo purposes is like when you search blood sport, your name's not going to pop up. Sylvester Stallone's 19 like 70 something film is going to pop up. And I was like, OK, what does that have to do with me? That she was like, That means you can't have this title. And they kept sending me titles that I could not.

00;03;47;15 - 00;04;01;22
Speaker 1
I was like, What is this? And we were like sitting there for like six weeks, going back and forth until finally I sent in a very long list of titles and I was like, pick. And from that we got to their vicious games.

00;04;02;01 - 00;04;11;16
Speaker 2
What is the process like for you as a debut to try to push for what you want, and how does it like learning how to push for what you want? For your book?

00;04;11;19 - 00;04;36;09
Speaker 1
I have an amazing agent who, like, holds my hand through it because I remember as soon as she told me what they were like, the options were I was like, No, it all sounds like Mortal Kombat finishing phrases like, I finished them. What does that mean? No, I don't want that. And she very much advocated for me. And but also told me that if I'm going to go really hard on this, that means I'm going to have to give in other places.

00;04;36;19 - 00;04;55;24
Speaker 1
Luckily, I adored my cover from the start. Like, I didn't have any thoughts about the covers, like just show me something. And it was perfect. It was literally the cover that we still have to this day. And so I just was like in all and so excited. So I didn't really have to give up that much because they like the cover was just so beautiful.

00;04;56;04 - 00;04;59;07
Speaker 2
It's a great cover, especially the finish on when it's shimmery.

00;04;59;27 - 00;05;00;17
Speaker 1
I love it.

00;05;00;17 - 00;05;02;17
Speaker 2
It's like a really good hint.

00;05;02;18 - 00;05;04;09
Speaker 1
Yes. Of what's to come.

00;05;04;13 - 00;05;14;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a great hint. And once I got that, I was like, Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant, great job on the cover. How much research went into their various games?

00;05;14;13 - 00;05;15;21
Speaker 1
None, because I lived it.

00;05;16;00 - 00;05;17;13
Speaker 2
Oh, do tell.

00;05;18;23 - 00;05;45;00
Speaker 1
So I went to a private school growing up from six through 12th grade. I was a scholarship kid, and so a lot of like the real heavy stuff, like about class and race, like I experienced, I went through that and so I just was like, how do I make this cathartic in a way that's also being honest, but also keeping it light because I want people to still be like, Oh, this book is funny.

00;05;45;00 - 00;06;09;18
Speaker 1
Like, I want people to be like, This book is crazy. And insane, but also darkly hilarious, and that's really important to me. So that was a huge part of it. I think the only thing I researched was like, horses but I've also horseback. I have done that. The only thing I really looked at was like, how to structure the ride, which is based on a checklist of Archean race.

00;06;09;18 - 00;06;16;04
Speaker 1
I believe that I can't pronounce the name of, but that's where I got the Texas ditch from. So yeah.

00;06;16;29 - 00;06;20;05
Speaker 2
How do you take care of your mental health when you're writing such dark books?

00;06;20;24 - 00;06;40;06
Speaker 1
Oh, my friends, I go out a lot. Like, I'm like, like if I need a break, I'm like, OK, who can I like text right now where I'm like, I need to leave the house and do something fun. And it's funny because I'm like, not a particularly dark person. So that also helps. I'm very cheery and.

00;06;40;08 - 00;06;43;12
Speaker 2
Very cheerful, so they're very fun. Yes.

00;06;43;12 - 00;06;57;21
Speaker 1
So like it's always funny when people are like That's so interesting that you write that because that is not the vibe you give. And I'm like, I'm a I'm a happy person. Hey. But yeah, I have a really great support system where I'm always like, Let's go do something fun.

00;06;57;28 - 00;07;00;14
Speaker 2
Let's like get a loser. We're going.

00;07;00;14 - 00;07;13;10
Speaker 1
Shopping. Yeah, exactly that. And like, let's go shopping, let's go eat, let's go laser talking. Like, I went up state to Cold Spring, New York for a day because I was like, I don't want to be in the city. I want to write, like, let's go do something.

00;07;13;24 - 00;07;23;28
Speaker 2
So you got to make a New York Comic-Con appearance where your moderator it was a grand old time. What's it like for you as like a brand new author to get to be on that kind of a level of stage?

00;07;24;01 - 00;07;43;17
Speaker 1
It's really intimidating. Someone came up to me, they had like went through an annotated my book and I was like, Why? Like, what do you mean? Like, it's just so weird. I don't know. I just feel like I haven't like, I don't know. I'm always honored when people are like, Yeah, we want you. I'm like, But for what?

00;07;44;03 - 00;07;46;06
Speaker 1
But like, what do you mean.

00;07;46;29 - 00;07;48;26
Speaker 2
Jennifer Lawrence? What do you mean exactly?

00;07;49;04 - 00;07;50;19
Speaker 1
What do you mean by that? What do you mean.

00;07;51;04 - 00;07;51;24
Speaker 2
Shaking it.

00;07;52;22 - 00;07;57;21
Speaker 1
Exactly that mean like me and Jennifer Lawrence I'm like, what do you mean like? So yeah.

00;07;59;11 - 00;08;05;09
Speaker 2
So as a debut, what did you learn through this process that you wish you would have known before you started writing? The book?

00;08;05;15 - 00;08;29;15
Speaker 1
Oh, my God. Right. Your second book before you think you have to write it? I that was hard. I thought I was above the sophomore or something. I'm not. And all my friends were like, no, like, you're very efficient. But no, everyone has a hard time with book two and I had a hard time and I wish I had started it way before I did because it ended up being handed in late.

00;08;29;28 - 00;08;42;21
Speaker 1
And so, like, my editor was like, no, we built in time for that. We knew, but also because it is common. Like, even if I'm like, Oh, it won't be me, it will. And I wish I had started earlier. Like, I think about that constantly. I'm like, Oh.

00;08;44;02 - 00;08;51;04
Speaker 2
So what did you learn from other authors that has helped you get through this first book and then through turning in your second book?

00;08;51;07 - 00;09;14;22
Speaker 1
Oh my God, don't kill myself. That's what they're like don't kill yourself to, like, push this book. I I've heard that constantly. They're like, Take a break, say no. That was like a big piece of advice. That a lot of my friends gave me and authors. They were like, Pace yourself, because it can get really overwhelming because you want to say yes to everything, because it's your first book and you're like, What if I don't get this chance again?

00;09;15;00 - 00;09;25;02
Speaker 1
But like, really learning, like, my own limitations and, like, reminding myself constantly that it's out there already. Like, if I can't do something it's OK. Like, that's been very.

00;09;25;02 - 00;09;28;25
Speaker 2
Helpful. What would you give advice would you give to others who are wanting to get published?

00;09;29;21 - 00;09;40;02
Speaker 1
Take a break is the best advice my friend Cameron Garrett tells me that all the time because I'm always like, This is what I'm working on. She's like, Breathe. I'm like, All right.

00;09;40;12 - 00;09;41;14
Speaker 2
Yes, man.

00;09;41;19 - 00;09;59;25
Speaker 1
Yeah. She's always like, You need to relax. Like, you don't have to do it right now. And my piece of advice that I give everyone, especially to people who want to write, is Read More which is something I always have to remind myself to do. I feel like when you become an author, it is really hard to read still because you have so many deadlines.

00;10;00;00 - 00;10;19;17
Speaker 1
But I really do make out time every single day to read for like an hour because I feel like it informs your writing, you know, like the things you want to write and the things you don't. And both are equally important to know. I cannot read that fast. I used to be able to when I was younger, but now I'm like, I feel like I've slowed down so much.

00;10;19;26 - 00;10;36;22
Speaker 1
Like I can still write fast, but like reading I'm like, I'm reading every single word on a page when that's not necessary. I've learned that, like to understand a sentence, you only need the first few words in the last few words in a sentence. I don't know why I'm lingering over ads, and it's like, What do I doing?

00;10;37;13 - 00;10;48;24
Speaker 2
In researching you for the panel, I learned that you also love string art and crochet and yeah, I can't crochet very well, but I met. So how does that help you with your creative process as a writer?

00;10;49;00 - 00;11;11;13
Speaker 1
Oh, whenever I am like stumped because I don't really believe in writer's block. Like, I whenever I'm stumped by something, I will like talk to myself while like crochet to like work through it. Or I'll be listening to my playlist for my book to work through it because I just feel like at a certain point, like now that writing is my job, it can't really be a hobby anymore.

00;11;11;27 - 00;11;27;05
Speaker 1
And so I'm like, I need a hobby that has nothing to do with a computer. And that's like physical something I can do with my hands and that's crochet. And it really, really is helpful. Like, and I love it and I make like bags and I like, don't even use them myself. They give them to my sister and she's like, Thanks.

00;11;27;11 - 00;11;30;01
Speaker 1
And she'll use it. I'll see it on her Instagram. Like, nice.

00;11;30;08 - 00;11;32;00
Speaker 2
To have a favorite piece that you've done.

00;11;32;03 - 00;11;44;23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Oh, my God. Over the summer I made like a lavender crochet like shoulder rag, you know, like how Y2K is really in. Yeah, I made one of those for my sister crochet.

00;11;44;23 - 00;11;50;08
Speaker 2
It takes up too much of my mental space. Yeah. Like, I can knit in a movie and just like knitting.

00;11;50;17 - 00;11;51;12
Speaker 1
I can't knit.

00;11;51;17 - 00;11;56;04
Speaker 2
I feel like people do one or the other. People who do both are, like, super talented. And I wish I was you.

00;11;56;12 - 00;12;13;21
Speaker 1
Yeah, my friend knits, too. And I'm like, I don't understand. The hand of it all. Like, I can't do it. Like. And I know there are certain projects where you have to knit to do it. And so I'm like, I'm never going to make a sweater. You like, because you can't crochet that, not how you want it to look.

00;12;14;02 - 00;12;17;04
Speaker 1
So I'm like, I'm never making a sweater and that socks.

00;12;17;16 - 00;12;22;17
Speaker 2
Do you have any secrets for how you keep the tension on the yarn equal throughout the whole project?

00;12;22;17 - 00;12;30;02
Speaker 1
Oh, my God, you struggle with it. I struggle with it, but also I sit on the end of the string. You know, I sit on the end of the yard. I keep it under my thigh.

00;12;30;22 - 00;12;33;01
Speaker 2
That's really smart to keep it there.

00;12;33;11 - 00;12;52;17
Speaker 1
So it's always like really like, you know, when you start your loop, you're supposed to start towards the end. I start really far in so that I can sit on it and keep it and I just keep the yarn and I'll leave it in somehow. Like I'll use a fur button like something. But yeah, I keep it really long so that, like, I'm not moving.

00;12;52;17 - 00;12;56;03
Speaker 1
It's not like I'm moving my bodyweight. So I'm sitting there, so I'm like, it'll stay.

00;12;56;11 - 00;13;00;07
Speaker 2
Another thing I saw on your Instagram was that you like to go out to eat alone.

00;13;00;15 - 00;13;01;00
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;13;01;09 - 00;13;11;00
Speaker 2
I do as well. And people think it's so weird. Why is it important to you to be able to do that without people like that feeling you're doing this?

00;13;11;05 - 00;13;35;04
Speaker 1
So this is something that I just started doing, like it was part of my list, like my in and out of the year where I was like in eating alone. And it's because I think it's so important to learn how to sit with your own thoughts. I think I know it's like really uncomfortable and we're in a culture where it's like simultaneously like really solitary, like isolation is, but also like move as a group pack mentality.

00;13;35;10 - 00;13;51;29
Speaker 1
But I think it's really important to be able to just sit in your own thoughts and like have experiences that are just for yourself. So I go to the movies alone. I will go to a store alone, I will eat alone, and I try and do that like once a month just because like, yeah, it's an uncomfortable thing, but I think it's important that you become comfortable with yourself.

00;13;51;29 - 00;14;07;23
Speaker 2
I didn't realize how subversive it was until people started thanking me for being, like, inspiring them to do it like this, to go sit at dinner and eat, eat and read. And they're like, That's so cool that you're strong enough in yourself to do that. And I didn't think about it that way. And then when you post that, I was like.

00;14;08;29 - 00;14;24;01
Speaker 1
OK, yeah, I didn't realize either. But then I was like, like, it's funny because I would go to a restaurant in the city, like right before I have like plans or something. I'll eat alone. And then like, Are you waiting on anyone? I'm like, No, like, it's me. Like, what do you mean?

00;14;24;06 - 00;14;25;11
Speaker 2
Like, it's fine?

00;14;25;17 - 00;14;27;05
Speaker 1
And they're like, Oh. And I'm like.

00;14;28;17 - 00;14;29;14
Speaker 2
Why are we like that?

00;14;29;26 - 00;14;31;05
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm like, it's fine.

00;14;31;06 - 00;14;33;05
Speaker 2
Like, it's not a big deal, people.

00;14;33;11 - 00;14;35;18
Speaker 1
Yeah. I'm like, you're still going to get a tip like you're good.

00;14;35;20 - 00;14;37;24
Speaker 2
Yeah, I don't be worried about it.

00;14;38;02 - 00;14;44;22
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, yeah, I think it's really important to just, like, learn how to be by yourself and with your own thoughts and not be afraid of that.

00;14;44;26 - 00;14;48;28
Speaker 2
So, sophomore slump. Talk to us about the second book and what your what you've got.

00;14;49;26 - 00;15;18;24
Speaker 1
The Blondies First is going to be my sophomore book. I really love it. It is a horror thriller, horror comedy thing that is an homage to the genre of horror and also the place I grew up, Brooklyn, and it's Sapphic, which I'm really excited for, and it's because it was really like I've had the idea since I sold their vicious games, but I didn't have like a story.

00;15;18;24 - 00;15;40;00
Speaker 1
I just had this premise of this group of teenagers being like Chase their Brooklyn by a demon. And I was like, Yeah, that's not a real premise. Like that doesn't mean anything. But basically I ended up coming to the character of Devin, who has a twin sister named Drew, who goes to a private school and has graduated a whole year earlier.

00;15;40;13 - 00;16;03;13
Speaker 1
And so to hide her devastation around that, she is very intent on Drew having the last, best summer ever. And so to prove that to her sister that she's like down for anything, they go to a party where a Ouija board is pulled out and the host of the party accidentally summons a demon that attaches itself to the friend group and chases them through Brooklyn.

00;16;03;13 - 00;16;16;10
Speaker 1
And the demon is actually hunting them in the order of traditional slasher movie kills. Hence, for the the blond who is Devin dies first.

00;16;16;21 - 00;16;19;20
Speaker 2
What is it about the horror thriller genre that you love so much?

00;16;19;24 - 00;16;49;23
Speaker 1
I just think that it's so fun and so subversive. And I feel like for so long, like horror has been like a very, like, hallmark and like a home for queer people. And I just feel like I can write anything in that genre and I can push like, themes and I can explore darker things without feeling weird. And I also think it always reflects societal fears at a given time.

00;16;49;23 - 00;17;10;23
Speaker 1
Like, you think about any movie and the time that it takes place in it reflects those societal fears. And I think that's so interesting and fun to explore and play with because there's also there are less rules with horror. The only rule is be scary as opposed to other genres, which I feel like have much starker like genre convention.

00;17;10;26 - 00;17;16;00
Speaker 2
Do you ever do any like psychological readings to try to help shape your characters.

00;17;16;05 - 00;17;39;25
Speaker 1
For this book? I read a lot about twins and like inferiority complexes and the like, just things like that and like parental relationships with twins and how they treat them differently. So you write a lot about that, but a lot of the stuff I just kind of reached within and I'm like, What is the scariest, scariest thing I can come up with?

00;17;40;00 - 00;18;02;29
Speaker 1
And so much this book in particular, my editor is like, Pull it back, pull it back. Because I really went there with my first draft and she was like, Well, oh my God, relax. And it's like, no, but she's like Thriller to Thriller to remember. It's a thriller too. And it's like, I know, I know. But yeah, I definitely had to pull back a.

00;18;02;29 - 00;18;07;24
Speaker 2
Little bit with this one. And did it feel like Y was a constraint on what you could get away with on this one?

00;18;07;27 - 00;18;33;01
Speaker 1
This one? Yeah. Even though I know that there is this James goes there is pretty bad, but this one, I was like, yikes. Because I really like I already touch on so much like touchy stuff in this book that I was like, I need to pick and choose my battles here because it can't just be all out. Like, I got real gory at certain points and I was like, this might be gratuitous.

00;18;33;13 - 00;18;40;23
Speaker 2
Is there anything you can share that you cut or are you holding on for for another novel in the future?

00;18;40;24 - 00;18;53;12
Speaker 1
No. I want a death sequence in which the demon went inside the mouth of a person and blew up the insides and then came back out of them.

00;18;54;08 - 00;18;57;24
Speaker 2
OK, I feel feel some Gen Z or not Gen Z? Gen V.

00;18;57;25 - 00;18;58;12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;18;58;13 - 00;18;59;15
Speaker 2
Like the boys vibe.

00;18;59;15 - 00;19;19;19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yes, there is that. Oh man, I love those. But unfortunately, yes, very that. And that's why I was like, I like had to play the I played up the comedy aspect more with the new version of the death, which I like equally as much, if not more, because it's far funnier, far funnier than what it was.

00;19;20;19 - 00;19;26;10
Speaker 2
I mean, we love seeing some good funny moments in these horror books. Is there anything else you want to talk about?

00;19;26;24 - 00;19;46;03
Speaker 1
I don't know. I feel like I can't share that much about the blond whispers. I can feel the specter of my editor over me being like, be quiet, which is during my lunch, they were like, What's next? And she's like lurking in the back of the bookstore. And I'm like, Can I say? And she's like, No. And I was like, OK.

00;19;47;16 - 00;19;49;14
Speaker 2
And we don't want you to get in trouble. We want the scoop.

00;19;49;14 - 00;19;53;17
Speaker 1
But exactly like, I feel her ghost being like, Well.

00;19;54;18 - 00;19;57;05
Speaker 2
Like, so and it comes out the day before my birthday.

00;19;57;08 - 00;19;58;25
Speaker 1
That's July 30th.

00;19;58;25 - 00;20;05;18
Speaker 2
Happy birthday to me. It's going to be a good book. Derek SEAL, he's got a book coming out that day. Yes. Good book day for me.

00;20;07;22 - 00;20;12;12
Speaker 2
So the last question we always ask. Yes. Because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about?

00;20;12;18 - 00;20;32;06
Speaker 1
OK, so I am currently reading Rouge by Mona Ward because I always try and read one adult book because I'm trying to write adult eventually. So I'm like, let me stay on top of that. And then the book I'm like currently reading every time I Walk Anywhere is where Sleeping Girls Lie by far. Read my friend. It is so good.

00;20;32;27 - 00;20;37;07
Speaker 2
I'm very excited to meet it. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your show.

00;20;37;10 - 00;20;40;21
Speaker 1
Thank you for having me. This was such a funny conversation.

00;20;40;21 - 00;20;41;15
Speaker 2
Thank you.

00;20;46;20 - 00;21;14;01
Speaker 2
Thanks again to Joel for hanging out with me at y'all fest 20, 23. It was so much fun getting to catch up with her and see what's going on and like that 20 story, right? Like, that's crazy. And I am extremely looking forward to her shenanigans. Which she had to go back for her second book. So if you want to follow Joel, those links are down in the show notes as well as a link to get a hold of this book for yourself, which you should.

00;21;14;10 - 00;21;24;26
Speaker 2
It's a good one. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype podcast and give us some stars. Thanks for listening to the Literary Hype podcast. I'm Stephanie. Have a great day.