CAIT WEST: Escaping the Christian Patriarchy Movement

Cait West is an editor and survivor of the Christian Patriarchy movement. Cait explains what that is and shares about the abuse she endured as a child in her new memoir, "Rift".

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Transcript

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;25;06
Speaker 1
Hi and welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stephanie your literary hype main back with another author conversation. Usually my author conversations involve fiction because that is something I just adore. I love fiction. I love a variety of fiction. There are many options within fiction, but today I'm mixing it up a bit and bringing you a debut nonfiction author And with that comes a little bit of a warning that some of the topics are a little heavier than you might be used to on this channel.

00;00;25;06 - 00;00;45;20
Speaker 1
So just be advised. With that being said, today's author is Kate West. She is the author of a memoir of Breaking Away From Christian Patriarchy. So you can tell right away from the title that this is a lot heavier than my normal topics. And if you want to take this conversation with you or some of my other author conversations, those are now available for you in podcast format.

00;00;46;05 - 00;01;08;20
Speaker 1
Literary hype on all major podcast platforms Here's my conversation with Kate West Welcome to Literary Hype. It's very exciting to have you on to talk about your new book, Drift But you're a name that people might not recognize. So before we get started talking about the book. Introduce yourself a little bit.

00;01;09;10 - 00;01;35;03
Speaker 2
Sure. Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this. I love talking about books. And now that I've written a book, it's exciting to talk about my own book. I am a writer and an editor. I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. So my day job is editing books. And I went to college to study creative writing, which is where I started writing my own memoir, which is coming out this year.

00;01;35;03 - 00;02;03;05
Speaker 2
It's about my story growing up in something called the Christian Patriarchy Movement, which is this religious fundamentalist ideology where men are the leaders and women are the submissive helpers. And so when I turned 18 I became what we call the stay at home daughter, where I was supposed to stay home after high school, which was homeschooling and wait to become a wife and a mother.

00;02;03;15 - 00;02;32;20
Speaker 2
So I wasn't allowed to go on dates or go to college or have a job outside the home. So my life was very isolated and limited, and I didn't leave until I was 25. And this is my story of what that is like to grow up this way. To feel so limited, but then to find my own voice and realize I have choices and how I found a way to leave and what it's like to live on the other side of all that.

00;02;32;21 - 00;02;34;06
Speaker 2
So that's that's in a nutshell.

00;02;34;15 - 00;02;56;19
Speaker 1
The stay at home daughters is a term most people might not be familiar with. I mean, I was kind of we have a lot of similarities, a lot of but even I hadn't heard the term stay at home daughter. Did you know that in the moment? Was that a term used in the moment or was it something that came after or how did that terminology come about?

00;02;56;19 - 00;02;57;03
Speaker 1
Sort of.

00;02;57;05 - 00;03;20;11
Speaker 2
Yes, it was a term that we used in my family and in the broader homeschooling community that followed something called Quiverfull ideology. So you might know that term from like the show about the Duggars. It's this idea that you should have as many children as possible. So being a stay at home daughter is very closely tied to the Quiverfull movement.

00;03;21;16 - 00;03;35;19
Speaker 2
It's all about women submitting and having as many children as possible. And so we did use that term. And in our community, we were very influenced by an organization called Vision Forum. So people in that world would have used that term.

00;03;35;19 - 00;03;42;07
Speaker 1
For someone who doesn't really understand what Christian patriarchy kind of looks like. Kind of a touch a little bit on that.

00;03;42;11 - 00;04;05;16
Speaker 2
When I left and I and I shared a few details, people used to think I was Amish. But we do share some beliefs with the Amish, but we're not quite as isolated as the Amish. And we didn't wear such. We didn't have such like restricted clothing. So we would have blended in with society a little bit better than the Amish community.

00;04;06;18 - 00;04;31;24
Speaker 2
Modesty was a big deal, so we would have been very careful to dress very modestly so even at the beach. I know a lot of families who would never allow boys and girls to swim together, and girls had to wear, you know, bloomers or skirts. So that is maybe the the biggest visual that you can have about a Christian patriarchal family.

00;04;33;27 - 00;05;03;18
Speaker 2
But a lot of times, you know, the fathers work out in the world. They'll be working in regular workplaces. You just don't see the families too much because the children are home schooled. The mothers stay home and they go to churches where everyone believes the same thing. So you might not run into them in social life, like sports or school, things that you might run into other people from other religions Hopefully that answers your question.

00;05;03;18 - 00;05;30;12
Speaker 2
But really, it comes down to this this lifestyle of men are the leaders, women, are the submissive ones. And so even children don't have a lot of rights and women don't have any rights in this movement. So it's very restrictive it's very misogynistic. Those are terms we wouldn't use. We would have said feminists were evil, things like that.

00;05;30;12 - 00;05;39;09
Speaker 2
But other than that ideology, it follows the Bible. We would have said we were Bible believing Christians following the Bible very literally.

00;05;39;28 - 00;06;01;07
Speaker 1
OK, since you brought up feminism, let's go there because I was also raised with like, feminism is a bad word and like you don't want to be a feminism and like growing into an adult and seeing that it's not all what it's painted out to be in church world. And you had some really good lines about feminism and what it means to you.

00;06;01;08 - 00;06;02;08
Speaker 1
So talk a little bit about that.

00;06;02;13 - 00;06;26;27
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was always told feminist, you know, being a feminist was the worst thing you could become as a woman. And so to me, I thought it was like a bad word. And when I when I was leaving, trying to kind of leave my family where I was experiencing abuse, my father used that term against me like it was this horrible insult just because I had stood up to him.

00;06;27;02 - 00;06;53;18
Speaker 2
I had become a feminist in his eyes. Which was a clue to me that maybe feminism isn't such a bad thing if it means standing up for yourself and having choices. So when I left, I learned about, you know, the feminist movement and the various the variations of that over the years. And I became you know, it really resonated with me and my own struggle as an individual.

00;06;54;00 - 00;07;22;08
Speaker 2
But then seeing how women have fought for rights over the years, I really identified with that. And so to me, feminism is about having human rights. As a woman, being treated as an equal human being, which I wasn't. And so to me, it's very practical. It's very important because I know what it's like to live without those freedoms.

00;07;22;09 - 00;07;25;08
Speaker 2
So to me, feminism is a really good word nowadays.

00;07;25;21 - 00;07;30;22
Speaker 1
What was it that made you want to write your story as emotional and tough as it is?

00;07;31;01 - 00;07;56;19
Speaker 2
I didn't want to for a long time. I wanted to just forget everything that had happened and start clean, which didn't work out very well because you can't escape who you are and what your past was. So when I started going to college in my mid-to-late twenties, I was studying, writing. I wanted to be a fiction writer, and I also had to take a different genre of classes.

00;07;56;19 - 00;08;23;08
Speaker 2
So I chose creative nonfiction, and I started writing parts of my story and my classmates and my professors were kind of like shocked that some of these things had happened to me and to me, they were just like normal experiences. So I realized I had something to tell At the same time, I felt like I couldn't stop writing about it, like it felt like it needed to get out of my body onto the page.

00;08;23;21 - 00;08;48;25
Speaker 2
And so I kept writing for myself. And eventually, once I started sharing online bits of it, I realized there are a lot of people who've experienced this. It's not just me. We're just not very seen very often. So I knew that if I were to make it into a book, I would want it to reach out to other people who could relate.

00;08;49;20 - 00;09;06;17
Speaker 2
And so that was a long process of me moving from not wanting to write about it, writing about it for myself, realizing there's a bigger story here and wanting to share it with other people. And so that that's been the past ten years. But that process.

00;09;07;01 - 00;09;19;27
Speaker 1
I talk a little bit about your structure here because it's not really linear entirely, and some of the essays are really short, some of them are longer. And how you decided to piece this together in this way?

00;09;20;04 - 00;09;53;10
Speaker 2
Yeah, I really struggled with finding a good structure because traumatic memory is so fragmented that it's hard to put it into a linear timeline. And I've talked to a lot of people who write about personal trauma and it's the same for them if your memory, your memory doesn't feel linear. If you've heard of something like EMDR therapy, when you go through trauma therapy or your piecing together memories that link together, they're not necessarily in a linear way, but that's how they stick in your brain.

00;09;53;10 - 00;10;24;28
Speaker 2
It's like they're connected by topic almost. So I started writing the book as essays on specific topics, so I wrote an essay about puberty culture, and I wrote an essay about just about the books I had read and an essay just about the geological references that I have in the book. And I was going to make it into a book of just strictly essays, but that wasn't working very well either because there is a bigger arc of me trying to get out and becoming who I am.

00;10;25;16 - 00;10;41;09
Speaker 2
And with working with the editor really helped me with that because she helped me find what that linear piece was. I could go through it even though there is some like fragmentation. I don't know if I could get away from that fragmentation just because that's the way my brain works.

00;10;43;15 - 00;11;10;14
Speaker 2
So at some point I printed out the manuscript, I cut all these essays into pieces, and then I taped them back together, you know, trying to braid through these different narratives in a somewhat linear way. But then then embracing that fragmentation to help hold it together. So I understand it might not work for everyone, but it's just kind of how my own story works in my brain.

00;11;11;29 - 00;11;26;14
Speaker 2
So yeah, that's how the structure came to be. And there were definitely times where I thought, like, this is not going to work. I don't know what I'm doing, but putting it out on paper printing it out, cutting it into pieces really helped me visualize what I want it to look like at the end.

00;11;27;02 - 00;11;52;06
Speaker 1
That's such a unique method for it. You know, you're people like literally cutting their book up. Yeah, really interesting. Since we're talking about books, too, you have a line in here that talks about Pride and Prejudice mirrored your life in a way that modern books couldn't. And like growing up in homeschool world, the classics are what you read so talk a little bit about finding yourself.

00;11;52;19 - 00;12;00;04
Speaker 1
And you also talked about finding yourself in nonfiction and like meeting that author. So let's talk a little bit about the importance of seeing yourself in a book.

00;12;00;16 - 00;12;22;29
Speaker 2
Books have always been an escape for me and a way for me to feel safe in a world that wasn't very safe and when I was homeschooled, you know, like you said, the classics are what's considered appropriate in your homeschooling curriculum. It's like there can't be anything wrong with them probably. So you're allowed to read all of them.

00;12;22;29 - 00;12;47;09
Speaker 2
So I really related to Jane Austen novels because the women in those stories is their goals based on the society they're living in, is to get married and to have a better life. And that's kind of what I was told was going to happen for me, was I would grow up and then find a husband and that's when I would become the fullest human I could be.

00;12;47;29 - 00;13;15;01
Speaker 2
So I really related to that. And then also the struggles of women trying to be themselves in this society. And so I think it's more similar subversive than perhaps my parents realized that Jane Austen's characters do struggle for agency. And that spoke to me on another level that I didn't understand at the time. So books have always been a way for me to escape.

00;13;15;01 - 00;13;53;12
Speaker 2
And when I got out, I read this book by Jennifer Matthew called Devoted, which is a young adult book about a girl who grew up just like me in the same movement. And it was the first time I felt really seen, like, so specifically to my experience that it was just so moving to me because sometimes when you grow up in these these extreme worlds, people on the outside want to turn you into a sensational story or use your story for something that's flashy or like really dramatic.

00;13;53;25 - 00;14;23;25
Speaker 2
And so in this story, I felt like she respected people like me to treat us like four human beings, even though we were growing up in an oppressive ways. And it just was like mind blowing to me that she could do that. And so I got to meet her at this conference, and that's in the book as well, because it was just a moment of I belong in the world, I'm allowed to be here, my story matters.

00;14;25;08 - 00;14;27;04
Speaker 2
And this author helped me see that.

00;14;27;20 - 00;14;35;27
Speaker 1
OK, side note, yes, I also grew up on a Becca curriculum. Did you hate their literature program as much as I did?

00;14;37;02 - 00;14;48;20
Speaker 2
I mean, literature is my favorite subject, but like I felt like every year they put this huge excerpt from Robinson Crusoe, and I hated that book because I was like, it's the most boring story.

00;14;48;20 - 00;14;49;25
Speaker 1
And Pilgrim's Progress.

00;14;49;28 - 00;14;53;04
Speaker 2
Every year was like, No, no more.

00;14;53;04 - 00;15;14;02
Speaker 1
I finally convinced my parents to let me just read the classics and just ignore the literature stuff because it made These are awful. I literally fell asleep reading their excerpt from Sleepy Hollow, like I could not get through it. My grandpa was very anti schooling, and so he would like watch over the shoulders. And so he was like, Well, if I can get through it, you can get through it.

00;15;14;17 - 00;15;18;22
Speaker 1
And he tried and he fell asleep, so I didn't have to read it. That was the Bible.

00;15;19;16 - 00;15;20;08
Speaker 2
That's awesome.

00;15;20;27 - 00;15;22;05
Speaker 1
Bargaining your way out of.

00;15;23;03 - 00;15;23;04
Speaker 2
The.

00;15;23;06 - 00;15;24;24
Speaker 1
Awful, awful curriculum.

00;15;25;16 - 00;15;31;16
Speaker 2
That's awesome. And plus, you're not being taught. I mean, at least for me, I wasn't being taught these things. I was just like, Here, read this book.

00;15;31;24 - 00;15;32;15
Speaker 1
Exactly.

00;15;32;18 - 00;15;36;15
Speaker 2
You know, yourself times. It's not like an interesting class. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;15;37;05 - 00;16;05;19
Speaker 1
Well, reading your book made me realize how much worse things could have been because I thought, oh, I thought I was like. Like I struggled a lot because I was, like, so sassy, like a redhead, like, don't tell me what to do. And it felt so. It wasn't so much my parents, but the homeschool group around us. I didn't realize until I was an adult how much easier my parents had it on me compared to others.

00;16;05;19 - 00;16;13;02
Speaker 1
And then as, like, reading this, I was like, oh, it really could have been so much worse. It really could have We turn now to.

00;16;13;02 - 00;16;36;09
Speaker 2
Another I don't think, you know, it's hard to compare experiences. I think, you know, when you when you go through something that hard, it's it's sometimes it can be helped to say like that so much worse. But also, it's just like we all go through separate things and it's hard to compare. So homeschooling, I think, in general has has been really harmful the way that my parents did it especially.

00;16;36;09 - 00;16;41;29
Speaker 2
But evangelical homeschooling has not provided very good education in general.

00;16;42;04 - 00;17;09;26
Speaker 1
I think it depends on the family immensely because like so many people in my home school group, we were all very driven and like went on to do cool things but then I've also met some who were not and were very problematic. So in your book, you do talk about your siblings and reference them, but you use different names for them but not for your husband.

00;17;10;16 - 00;17;16;10
Speaker 1
Talk a little bit about why you decided to switch up their names and if they were involved in picking their new names for the book, that kind of stuff.

00;17;16;15 - 00;17;46;13
Speaker 2
I originally had their their real names and their and I think they would have been fine with that. But my publisher I specifically wanted to protect all of my family's privacy because I'm talking about abuse and things that could be litigated and we had to do a full legal review. And so using pseudonyms for them was just part of that process of figuring out what's the best way to tell the story without causing more harm.

00;17;46;26 - 00;18;15;17
Speaker 2
And so I did go to them and they picked their own names, which was fun. So I also got that they we have relationships and that they're part of this process with me, that they could pick whatever they wanted to be called. And they read the book early, which was really nice. But my husband is the only person who's not a public figure that I used his name, and that's just because it wouldn't be that hard to figure out and I talk about him on my social media.

00;18;15;17 - 00;18;28;07
Speaker 2
He's part of my, you know, day to day life. So it didn't make a lot of sense to change his name. He's definitely not going to sue me for anything so he's totally on board with the book. So that's why they let me keep his name in the book.

00;18;28;14 - 00;18;47;14
Speaker 1
It's always interesting the behind the scenes workings of what gets what has to be changed and what doesn't when you're writing nonfiction. Yeah. You also narrated your audio book. Talk about that process and the challenges you faced in like reading your story out loud like that.

00;18;47;20 - 00;19;11;24
Speaker 2
Yeah. I'm so glad that they let me do that because not all authors get the opportunity to read their books. And I think if it was fiction, I wouldn't want to. But because it's my own story, it felt really important that it was my voice and I had read the book out loud several times already because that's part of my writing process to hear it spoken out loud.

00;19;11;24 - 00;19;34;09
Speaker 2
So I know that I like how it sounds. So that was part of my process. I've already written it, read it out loud, but when I did the audio, I went to the little studio and I had a producer who was amazing and very compassionate and trauma informed, and I was a little scared about that because I hadn't read the whole thing out loud to a person.

00;19;34;20 - 00;20;00;01
Speaker 2
I had read snippets, you know, readings, things like that. But reading it out the whole book out loud, it took five different mornings to read it all out loud. And, you know, part of that old fear of I'm betraying something I'm telling our dirty laundry came back a little bit and it was difficult to remember. I'm in a safe place.

00;20;00;01 - 00;20;21;08
Speaker 2
I'm in the present day. I'm just telling the story from a long time ago. And it ended up being super empowering because this producer she listened to everything I was saying. And then she would she would at the end of our sessions, she would talk to me about it, see how I was doing. She would offer me a hug if I wanted it.

00;20;21;08 - 00;20;49;01
Speaker 2
And I just felt super supported. And it was empowering because I could tell the story, this story and feel seen and something about having just one person there to hear it was really moving to me. And so I loved the experience. It was very hard kudos to all the audio book readers because it's like you're paranoid about your breathing and like all the sounds your mouth is making.

00;20;49;01 - 00;20;56;03
Speaker 2
It's it's hard work, so I don't know if I would ever want it do it again, but for this book, I'm really glad I got to do it.

00;20;56;11 - 00;21;04;01
Speaker 1
This book does deal with a lot of heavy topics and subject matter. How did you take care of your own mental health while you were writing?

00;21;04;04 - 00;21;30;08
Speaker 2
I didn't always do a very good job of that. I started writing this book before I'd ever gone to therapy. So that was hard. And I think therapy really helped me be able to finish the book because there were blocks that I had that I couldn't write about certain things because it was just too much. And so once I went through trauma therapy, that helped me process things in a safer way.

00;21;31;01 - 00;21;55;04
Speaker 2
But there was a time where I had a week off during Christmas one year, and I was like, I'm going to write, you know, the rest of this draft. And of course, I had saved all the hardest parts for her last, and I just spent all day, every day working on it, you know, immersed in my past, things that had happened to me.

00;21;56;14 - 00;22;23;20
Speaker 2
And I, I basically just had like a mental breakdown after that because it was too much. And I, that's when I started going to the doctor and getting on medication and helping me with the PTSD symptoms even more so I did that the wrong way. I would not recommend doing that. After that, I learned the better way to do that is taking breaks, planning times before and after.

00;22;23;20 - 00;22;56;08
Speaker 2
You're writing something that's hard, like a personal trauma taking time before and after your writing session to just do something you love or that makes you feel alive. Like for me, that's going on a walk or just watching some silly TV show. That brings me back to the present moment. So nowadays I do that much more. I'll take breaks around things that are related to this book or talking about my past, and I've become much more stable by doing that.

00;22;56;08 - 00;23;19;21
Speaker 2
So I would recommend not pushing yourself to write about trauma without taking breaks, without any support. So now I feel like I have a good support system. I have a better method I would definitely write it. It would be easier to write now than it was a few years ago, but it is what it is. And I got I got the words out.

00;23;19;24 - 00;23;44;18
Speaker 1
There's a line that really stood out to me. We were so focused on purity and the idea of holiness that we miss the relationships right in front of us. And I feel like that really is relatable to just the church as a whole. Like I'm trying to clean the fish before you catch them. Kind of ideal so talk about how faith can move forward in this world without being oppressive and abusive.

00;23;44;20 - 00;24;12;12
Speaker 2
I think for me it was always doctrine came before people. And so it didn't matter how it affected the people around you, as long as you had this pure doctrine or this perfect belief system, which was infallible. You know, I was taught that it was perfect. This whole doctrinal system that was so much more important than the people.

00;24;12;20 - 00;24;39;27
Speaker 2
And so I saw doctrine used to harm people in my life, my family members, my friends, for instance, my brother's gay. And so the Bible was used as a weapon against him, and he eventually was like excommunicated from the church because of that. So I've seen doctrine used so much and it's used with the words of love. But then the actions feel more like hate.

00;24;40;10 - 00;25;07;14
Speaker 2
And so that's what I was trying to get at, is this can't be right. It can't be right. I feel like it's like that Bible verse, like I don't go to church anymore. But that Bible verse where it talks about finding the fruits and seeing if it is a good tree, right? So I was seeing so much bad fruit around me that I was like, there has to be something wrong with this, because if there's a God, they wouldn't want people to be hurt like this.

00;25;07;27 - 00;25;26;06
Speaker 2
So that's really what switched my mind around around that. And so I do think that people in different religions can find a way that loves people and honors their faith. I didn't see that happen in my growing up, but I do think that's possible.

00;25;26;09 - 00;25;31;02
Speaker 1
The greatest commandment is to love, right? Are you working on any other books for the future?

00;25;31;05 - 00;25;55;05
Speaker 2
I am working on some fiction writing. It's really in the messy part right now. So I don't want to share too much about it, but I am excited to explore other genres a little bit and take a break from personal trauma and write about something else feel like, you know, I did. I did good with the book. I feel like it's what I want it to be and I'm excited to see what else I can write.

00;25;55;27 - 00;25;57;08
Speaker 1
What books do you edit?

00;25;57;08 - 00;26;19;07
Speaker 2
I work for a publishing company that that publishes like all sorts of genres. And so generally I get to work on thrillers occasionally romance memoirs, so all sorts of things. A couple of fun science like popular science books. It's been really fun to read. I get to read for work, which is my dream.

00;26;19;16 - 00;26;22;06
Speaker 1
Because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about?

00;26;24;26 - 00;26;49;24
Speaker 2
Wow. I've been reading a book right now called A Home Place Memoirs of a Colored Man. It's A Love Affair with Nature by J. Drew Lanham and it's just beautifully written, if you like nature writing. So if you've read my book, like, you know, I'm kind of interested in nature. I write about geology and places, and so I'm really interested in in combining personal stories with with nature writing.

00;26;49;24 - 00;27;07;12
Speaker 2
And so it's a beautifully written book about this farm in South Carolina, which part of my family's from North Carolina, so I can picture it really well. So I haven't seen that book around, and I just happened to find it. And I think it's a beautiful book. So if you like similar books to mine, that might be a good one.

00;27;07;24 - 00;27;17;16
Speaker 2
I guess a question for you. Like what other books do you recommend that are memoirs? I always love looking for new memoirs. If you read memoirs.

00;27;19;11 - 00;27;24;20
Speaker 1
One that is kind of in your vein ish is something other than a mother.

00;27;25;06 - 00;27;25;18
Speaker 2
OK.

00;27;26;19 - 00;27;44;08
Speaker 1
Erin, I cannot remember her last name, but I had her on the show and it was really good. It's like deciding to not like even though society tells you the only thing a woman's good for is being a mom and like this, I think that, yeah, I do. I mean, I read a lot of celebrity memoirs because they're real fun.

00;27;45;20 - 00;27;47;28
Speaker 2
I mean, to read the Prince Harry one, but I haven't yet.

00;27;48;04 - 00;28;03;18
Speaker 1
It's his structure is a little weird. OK, but it's got some good stories. Zachary Levi is a really good one. I love Dave Grohl from Foo Fighters. That's a really good one. And he reads his audio book.

00;28;03;27 - 00;28;04;12
Speaker 2
OK.

00;28;04;24 - 00;28;24;06
Speaker 1
He has his audio. I normally listen audio books at like double speed mathematically, I had to slow down, but that man talks so fast, is so much faster than everything else. And he does voices and it's like it's, it's very wild, too. It was. That sounds interesting. Yeah. Like someone was like, don't don't read the book. Do the audio book.

00;28;24;18 - 00;28;25;15
Speaker 2
OK? All right.

00;28;25;23 - 00;28;43;07
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Memoirs. I don't read as many as I would like. I've got a couple on my tbe read shelf. It's like a Tyson. Martin Baker is a musician and Bill Snyder who's faster football coach at my college and Britney Spears.

00;28;43;12 - 00;28;43;27
Speaker 2
Yeah, I.

00;28;45;21 - 00;28;49;29
Speaker 1
Get a lot of random ones. I just don't have time to read all the books that show up. I don't.

00;28;50;25 - 00;28;53;00
Speaker 2
Know. That's the same. Feel the same.

00;28;53;14 - 00;28;57;23
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for taking the time to talk about Rick with me here. On Literary. Hi.

00;28;58;13 - 00;28;59;14
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me.

00;29;05;05 - 00;29;22;17
Speaker 1
Thanks again to Kate for taking the time to not just talk about her new book report, but her own life. This is her life. On the page. And so she's very vulnerable with the things that she went through so that other people can have a different perspective and see what other people are going through. It's important to read books that don't always align with your perspective.

00;29;22;17 - 00;29;38;03
Speaker 1
I'd like to get a copy of Risk for yourself, whether that be a physical book or getting the audio book that she reads herself. The links to do so are down in the description below. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to hit that like button and subscribe to the channel if you've not already done so. Thanks so much for watching.

00;29;38;04 - 00;29;38;27
Speaker 1
I'll see you next time.