NICOLA YOON: Mixing 'Get Out' & 'Stepford Wives' for a thriller in a Black Utopia

I've loved Nicola Yoon's books for a long time, so it's an absolute thrill to have her on LiteraryHype. She's such a kind person, so her adult thriller debut, One of Our Kind, will definitely surprise you. In this conversation, we're tackling some big topics that are part of the book, including racism, grace, and improving the world around us.

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BUY THE BOOKS (Bookshop):
Everything Everything
The Sun is Also a Star
Blackout
Whiteout
Instructions for Dancing
One of Our Kind

BUY THE BOOKS (Amazon):
Everything Everything
The Sun is Also a Star
Blackout
Whiteout
Instructions for Dancing
One of Our Kind

Transcript

00;00;00;18 - 00;00;02;08
Speaker 1
Okay. But it's it could.

00;00;02;08 - 00;00;04;07
Speaker 2
Be that you're not going to do it. OK.

00;00;04;13 - 00;00;08;22
Speaker 1
Absolutely not. OK. Well, never say never and all that, but no.

00;00;09;27 - 00;00;33;08
Speaker 2
I'm Hi. And welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stephanie here. Literary Hype woman and I'm crossing another one off the vision board list for 2024. Today's Oscar conversation is with someone I have loved for a very long time. Like I'm pretty sure I had an arc of the sun is also a star. I know I have everything everything.

00;00;33;08 - 00;00;55;10
Speaker 2
But I don't know if it was an arc. So I've been on this ride with Nickelodeon for quite some time. That being said, Nicholas Husband is also a writer, and he's kind of part of the reason that I'm even doing this other interview series as it is today in the first place. So I've wanted to talk to them together, but this is my first opportunity to talk to Nicholas, so I definitely had to take it.

00;00;55;16 - 00;01;21;10
Speaker 2
While Nicola is known for the way a romance is, including instructions for dancing she was in town promoting her new adult thriller. This is her adult debut, one of Our Kind. It's pitched as Get Out Meets The Stepford Wives, so it's a thriller it's very different from anything you've ever read from Nicola, and it's quite an adventure and she wants you to throw the book at the end and we'll find out how I feel about the end here momentarily.

00;01;21;10 - 00;01;35;06
Speaker 2
So without any further ado, here's my conversation with Nicola Yoon welcome to Literary Hype. This so excited to have you on the show. Been wanting this for so long.

00;01;35;07 - 00;01;37;05
Speaker 1
You took time. Thanks for having.

00;01;37;05 - 00;01;44;27
Speaker 2
Me. You've been on quite the whirlwind lately, including Late Night with Seth Meyers. Oh, my God. What was that like?

00;01;45;13 - 00;02;04;17
Speaker 1
I mean, it was completely surreal, but like the best way because I was so nervous. So nervous. So those men, I sat down with them and I felt fine, like because he's so amazed and interested and the like, he leans in and I had a really good time, shockingly. And then afterwards, I had this collapse and I drank a lot of suck.

00;02;06;13 - 00;02;17;21
Speaker 2
And you got to talk about your daughter reading your book. Yeah. The first time. Yeah. What is that like for you as a parent, for your child to finally reach the age where they can read your work and like, enjoy it?

00;02;18;09 - 00;02;41;10
Speaker 1
You know, it's funny because like, I definitely made a conscious decision not to pressure her into reading my book. I know it's fine. I love her anyway. She loves me. Anyway, the book says that they're into it, but she had read David's Witch Fantasy, which read Super Fake Love Song and loved it, like quoted him back to him because it's so it's a really funny book and they have the same sense of humor.

00;02;41;10 - 00;02;57;11
Speaker 1
And so they cackled over that. And then a few months later, she just decided she was ready for this and is also a star. She picked it up, read it, and just like I think in two days, kind of little eyes that at the end, as I said on Seth Myers, she's not a crier when it comes to this stuff.

00;02;58;06 - 00;03;08;02
Speaker 1
And this came out and said I was a good writer and like I really just was overwhelmed with how many emotions I felt like I was. I did die. I really did die.

00;03;08;17 - 00;03;27;19
Speaker 2
I mean, that's so cute. Like especially at that age. Yeah. I think getting people getting children in their pre-teen years to be nice to you is very difficult. So like you said, that's impressive. But you've written all these wonderful Y.A. books. Yeah. And now you're switching gears a little bit to adult thriller from Y.A..

00;03;27;19 - 00;03;28;24
Speaker 1
Romance for You.

00;03;28;27 - 00;03;30;23
Speaker 2
What made you want to make that switch?

00;03;30;24 - 00;03;54;16
Speaker 1
People asked me this, but it was not a conscious decision at all. It was I didn't know I was writing an adult thriller until I was writing an adult thriller. Right? So I have the idea for the book, and it was clearly not going to be way this because I thought of the main character. She's an adult, she's pregnant, she's married, she has a young son, and all the themes I wanted to touch on were definitely adult.

00;03;54;26 - 00;04;05;13
Speaker 1
And so I was when I started writing it, I knew that and I also knew what and they was going to be. And so it was definitely just built in Thriller. So then I had to learn how to write a thriller.

00;04;05;15 - 00;04;15;06
Speaker 2
Did you change your process or your routine or like any mindset changes that you had to make to get into the thriller adult headspace and compared to why a romance?

00;04;15;15 - 00;04;34;03
Speaker 1
No, I mean, I think it's not the thriller thing wasn't the thing that was a little different. It was the adult that maybe was a little different just because I was suddenly a lot of talk about all of these very the things that you wouldn't know unless you've been on life for 30 years. 35, 40 years. Right? So just like the permission to do that was interesting.

00;04;34;09 - 00;04;52;00
Speaker 1
And also I think in my young adult books I tend to allow for a lot of hope and I tend to answer the questions I ask and in this book I don't answer the questions because I don't know all the answers. And I the book is definitely meant to point out a question and many questions that I want us all to consider.

00;04;52;16 - 00;05;00;08
Speaker 2
It is definitely a thought provoking book. So for those who haven't seen anything about one of our kind, give us a little synopsis of what it's about.

00;05;00;13 - 00;05;20;14
Speaker 1
It's definitely a thriller as we said, I've been pitching it as Get Out The Mean. It's The Stepford Wives, and it's about a woman named Jasmine, who, along with her husband and her young son move to this place called Liberty, which is a suburb of Los Angeles, very wealthy suburb, bills itself as a black utopia. Everyone there is black.

00;05;20;14 - 00;05;44;00
Speaker 1
The janitors, the lawyers, the doctors, the venture capitalists, and importantly, the police officers are black. Jasmine goes there because she's looking for a sense of community. She's looking for safety for her family. And at first she finds it, but then thinks there's a shift. People start being more interested or her neighbors are more interested in the spa very well.

00;05;44;00 - 00;06;05;08
Speaker 1
Despite the center of town, it's on the hill. So expensive, lots of sissy treatments. Her husband starts going there. Jasmine is pregnant, so she feels a sense of urgency to investigate what's going on. She does meet some likeminded folks and they start to dig. But things start to get dangerous. And Jasmine has to figure out who really is one of her kind and who's not.

00;06;05;08 - 00;06;21;16
Speaker 2
About done and you touched on Jasmine's pursuit of community. Like community is so important to her and drives her and everything. Is that what part of you came out in that character and when?

00;06;21;16 - 00;06;26;17
Speaker 1
I think it's important to say that Jasmine is entirely fictional. Yeah. Yeah, definitely not me at all.

00;06;27;08 - 00;06;30;06
Speaker 2
Writers pull pieces of them straight into their characters.

00;06;30;06 - 00;06;46;22
Speaker 1
Right? And so I think by what I've pulled into her is like this concern that we all have in the world, right? Was this, like, conflict that I think we all can feel because so you wake up in the morning and mostly everything's fine, but when you turn on the news and the world is on fire all the time, right?

00;06;47;02 - 00;07;06;02
Speaker 1
And I think that if you're a reasonably good person, you want to fix things, right? You want to like tackle global warming and you want there's a war going on. There's several wars going on. In fact, there's racism, sexism, all the things that need fixing. But also it's you and it's just you and you to take care of yourself.

00;07;06;02 - 00;07;21;09
Speaker 1
And if you take care of your family, and your friends and that there's a way in which the world can tug you apart and pull you apart like you're trying to fix this, to try to fix that, you take care of yourself. I think there's a certain amount of guilt that comes with that. And I think Jasmine is dealing with that.

00;07;21;09 - 00;07;35;18
Speaker 1
She's dealing with that that pull to take care of her community and balance that with trying to take care of herself. And I think we all struggle with that. Like the modern condition is to is to have these two things going on all the time.

00;07;36;21 - 00;07;44;06
Speaker 2
So you posted a little tick tag Instagram of the notebooks. So you write by hand.

00;07;44;10 - 00;07;45;09
Speaker 1
Do I do?

00;07;45;17 - 00;07;51;17
Speaker 2
What is that process like for you? And going like, why do you want to write by hand? And how does that work for you?

00;07;52;01 - 00;08;12;27
Speaker 1
I want this an editor. If this is the way I write and it's always has been. I used to be in finance and I used the code and I used the code like by writing little like led general sort of algorithm down by hand to and then typing them. I don't know why my brain works this way. I do know that it makes me feel free.

00;08;13;08 - 00;08;32;04
Speaker 1
Writes a notebook somehow it's just I can just cross it out. It's no big deal. It makes me try things more and take more risks strangely. And so the first thing that's the part of my brain that I really need to be open is like the wild weird. I will follow any. No, some part of my brain, right?

00;08;32;14 - 00;08;48;13
Speaker 1
And then every like three or four days and type in what I have written. And then that's like my first revision, right? Because I really edit it when I'm typing and it just feels more formal. I was such a different process. But I mean, I honestly think there's different parts of my brain working when I do one thing versus the other.

00;08;48;28 - 00;08;56;02
Speaker 1
I've tried to short circuit it, short circuiting it, and it does not work. It's like it comes up badly. I don't know.

00;08;56;15 - 00;09;05;01
Speaker 2
How did you find that this was the process that works for you? Like what was your trial and error process journey like to find that writing by hand was really where it was for you.

00;09;05;07 - 00;09;17;20
Speaker 1
There was the trial by error. Like, I just I think that's just the way my brain is. I just write it down like I always write things down. I mean, I really used to code by writing it down. And so once I finally made the switch to writing, it just seemed like that's what I was going to do.

00;09;17;27 - 00;09;25;23
Speaker 1
So I have these moleskin notebooks and then recently switched to paper blanks because they're pretty and I like pretty understandable.

00;09;25;23 - 00;09;27;00
Speaker 2
The book girlies get it.

00;09;27;06 - 00;09;34;05
Speaker 1
Yes. And so I just I just do her like, I wish I had like a reasonable explanation, but I superdad.

00;09;34;19 - 00;09;48;16
Speaker 2
So when you're crafting this town of Liberty, where Jasmine and her husband move with their little boy, you talk about the wellness center was always meant to be the center of town. And like, there's aspects of like plotting the town out itself. How did you approach crafting the town?

00;09;48;16 - 00;10;08;22
Speaker 1
I had, I will say a lot of fun writing some of the aspects of the wellness center. Right. So one of the things I did was look at a lot of She-She spouse, Marla. I didn't go to them like I looked online and oh my God, the things you can find like Sylvia's bars are insane. Like, farm menus are just wild.

00;10;08;27 - 00;10;12;07
Speaker 1
The prices are it's just astronomical. Right.

00;10;12;07 - 00;10;13;28
Speaker 2
So what's the craziest thing you saw.

00;10;14;16 - 00;10;33;24
Speaker 1
The thing that sticks in my was the sound beat therapy. And I just don't understand what I would do. Like, I'm so curious. Like, I want to go and there's lots of things with the immersed into like, salt and the wound is black and there's stuff happening. I could see how maybe it's interesting, but not for the prices that they're offering them.

00;10;34;28 - 00;10;52;29
Speaker 1
I didn't. I was just the price would stress me out while I was in the therapy. I'd be like, No, I can't do all this. I'll so. So that was fun. And then I just sort of I'm a terrible artist, but I just drew the town. Like, I made this like this was going to be here, this was going to be here.

00;10;52;29 - 00;11;09;00
Speaker 1
Like, I made myself like a little dude, love a map. But the tab is more about the details of like the places that they're in like if we ever make it into a movie, honestly, they can rearrange and have where they want, but the details are the things that are really important to me.

00;11;09;01 - 00;11;10;27
Speaker 2
Is there going to be a movie?

00;11;10;28 - 00;11;19;14
Speaker 1
God is good. I'm going to make a I would really like to see it, but nothing yet.

00;11;20;11 - 00;11;29;03
Speaker 2
I mean, everyone wants to know about the movies. I have more movie questions, but we'll hold those for later. Yeah, because we're we're talking about the book now. Book is the more important part, right? Right.

00;11;29;07 - 00;11;29;18
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;11;30;08 - 00;11;47;09
Speaker 2
This book does tackle some very big, tough issues yes. And so it's always kind of a challenge to like navigates those kind of conversations about racism, especially like I know I'm white it's very delicate how to phrase things like that.

00;11;48;09 - 00;12;10;14
Speaker 1
So what you said before, like, we have to be delicate or you're not you sort of unsure how to ask. But I think part of the point of the book, though, is don't don't just ask. It's like it's fine. I think so much of the problem when we talk about race and racism is fear, right? Because what happens is that we're not treating each other with great.

00;12;10;14 - 00;12;29;14
Speaker 1
Right? Like we're not treating each other like the best versions of ourselves. Like if I ask you a question because I know something like it's just meant well, right. This minute is a question. And sometimes I'm ignorant and sometimes I get it wrong like I have gotten it wrong with my friends before and they just correct me because they know that I love them and vice versa.

00;12;29;23 - 00;12;54;00
Speaker 1
Like they've gotten it wrong with me and I'm like, no. And then fix it and we move on. Right? And I think that in our conversations, like you and me sitting here, like, if we just open and just relax and I assume that you're a good person and yes, I'm a good person, then, then we don't have to be like scared of it because I think the fear prevents actual connection method that prevents actual conversation.

00;12;55;01 - 00;13;04;09
Speaker 1
And so one of the things that I'm like my dearest wish for this book is that after you like stay up all night reading it and flinging it across the room, is that.

00;13;04;19 - 00;13;05;09
Speaker 2
OK? My mood.

00;13;05;09 - 00;13;26;17
Speaker 1
Though, is that you actually talk to like party of friends, talk to people inside your circle, but more importantly, talk to people outside of your circle about why the book ends the way it does and like and just be honest and like if you get things wrong, it's not coming from a bad place. Like most people will do the right thing if they know what the right thing is.

00;13;26;25 - 00;13;46;03
Speaker 1
Some people suck. It's mostly people don't. I maintain I'm I think that fear hinders progress, right? Like on all sides. Not just like between like race questions, but any kinds of questions. Like the best thing is just to shed some light on it and to talk about it.

00;13;47;11 - 00;14;08;15
Speaker 2
So did you feel like there was a point where it might have you needed to go harder or like balancing that out along with the plot of making sure that the message was clear and that talking about the problem is clear, but not letting it overshadow the plot or like would did you think about like, would I lose a reader at this point if I go too hard on this topic.

00;14;08;16 - 00;14;25;17
Speaker 1
You know, you can't or at least I can't think about the reader while I'm writing. Like I can't think of because it's bad for art making. Like, I just have to say the thing that I want to say and write the book that I want to write. I am aware now on the other side of it, like how people feel.

00;14;25;17 - 00;14;49;00
Speaker 1
People are having very big feelings, some great, some like less great but that's for the reader. Like, I just needed to do the thing and I wanted to do I need it. Like I was compelled to write this book. I couldn't help it and I don't know. I mean, I think that I wanted a thriller, like I wanted something fast paced because I'm quite shallow and I like my books to be fast paced.

00;14;49;20 - 00;15;13;21
Speaker 1
So like, I like, I was like, oh, I want people to stay up with this one. And so but I also had all these things I wanted to talk about and my favorite my favorite kind of books are ones that aspect questions, but I also really entertaining. And so, I mean, hopefully I've done that. But I mean, I really that was deliberate, but I can't think about like a mythical a reader while I love them because then I will be able to do it.

00;15;14;00 - 00;15;34;29
Speaker 2
There's a really great quote from Toni Morrison that's in this book that basically says that racism is a distraction. Who were you using that it's so it's in the book. I know I've seen other interviews where you've talked about that's a very important quote to you. Yeah. Since this is a thriller that is very race driven, was the racism a distraction from what was going on all along?

00;15;35;15 - 00;15;57;28
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, I think what happens to Jasmine and again, I think this is a specific problem state of being black in America, but also can be broader problem. Is that so many things can be distracting. All right. So many things can pull you away from your life because we've kind of made a mess of things. Like we have too many things going wrong.

00;15;58;00 - 00;16;18;12
Speaker 1
There are too many things to care about. And it's hard to like if you have to be hyper vigilant all the time, you can invest something right and kind of a question in this book is like, why have we created a world where we have to be so hyper vigilant where there is no there's no relaxing because something is going to go wrong, you're going to miss it.

00;16;18;19 - 00;16;41;10
Speaker 1
Jasmine feels so compelled to protect her family that she moves to this town where everything is supposed to be safe. Right. But why does she think it's going to be safe there? Like is a question that, you know, I'm asking us all to consider. And also, why have we made a world like this where she would want to take herself out of the larger society to feel safer?

00;16;41;20 - 00;16;47;26
Speaker 2
What do you hope the reader takes away from this story the most? There's a lot of things to take away from this, but what do you hope they take away the most?

00;16;48;16 - 00;17;11;27
Speaker 1
So there's mean Isabel Wilkerson, the fabulous nonfiction author, and Sheilah Kast talked about this a lot because I saw her talk about she describes like structural racism as a house that we're all in. Right like we didn't build a house, but we're all in this house now. And like the basement's flooding and the windows are broken and all this stuff is going around and the only thing to do is fix it.

00;17;12;06 - 00;17;37;06
Speaker 1
Like all of us just roll up our sleeves and fix it. So time for blame. There's no time for any of that stuff. Let's just let's fix it because it's the house is broken. It's hurting all of us. Right? Like racism obviously affects the victims the most, but everyone hurts from it, right? Like if I walk into a room and someone assumes that I can't be a really good friend to them because I'm brown and they're not so.

00;17;37;14 - 00;17;41;11
Speaker 1
Right. That hurts them too, right? Because I'm a great friend, right?

00;17;41;13 - 00;17;45;12
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Lee, you're adorable and awesome and I love you.

00;17;46;14 - 00;18;06;25
Speaker 1
But also, like, I mean, like I'm business wise, right? Like, so someone interviews for a job, like someone black in the new job and you don't give them you're missing out on the person who who's maybe the best person to do that job, to run your company, to do whatever. So it hurts everyone, right? So one of the things I want to take people to take away is like, you know what, all those house, let's try to fix it.

00;18;07;05 - 00;18;09;22
Speaker 1
But mostly I just want people to talk, right?

00;18;10;00 - 00;18;12;03
Speaker 2
Yeah. But we have to talk about the ending. Yes.

00;18;12;17 - 00;18;15;06
Speaker 1
Because but no spoilers, right?

00;18;15;07 - 00;18;32;13
Speaker 2
I know. It's really hard. Yes. It's really hard to talk about this when those spoilers, but I have feelings because it is not where I thought it was going to go then. And you said you knew that that's where you wanted it to go. It feels like it could be a set up for a sequel.

00;18;33;21 - 00;18;35;17
Speaker 1
You're the second person. Ask me this.

00;18;36;19 - 00;18;40;10
Speaker 2
OK? But it's it could be about you're not going to do it. OK?

00;18;40;12 - 00;18;44;24
Speaker 1
Absolutely not. OK, well, never was saying I all that, but no way.

00;18;45;18 - 00;18;49;25
Speaker 2
OK, fine. I was real hopeful. Really good.

00;18;50;01 - 00;18;55;12
Speaker 1
I mean, I we camp after we're not talking about this officially. Then afterwards I'll talk to you about.

00;18;55;14 - 00;18;55;24
Speaker 2
OK.

00;18;55;29 - 00;18;56;28
Speaker 1
Where do you think it could go?

00;18;57;08 - 00;19;17;26
Speaker 2
I mean, there's potential there's potential, but I guess all OK for now. One thing I love about you and your husband is that you also run an imprint, Joy Revolution. Yeah. And the mission behind that imprint is just so special. And I love everything that you guys are doing with that.

00;19;17;26 - 00;19;19;26
Speaker 1
I love that. And for that's my favorite.

00;19;20;23 - 00;19;31;00
Speaker 2
So talk a little bit about what it's like for you as a writer to now be in the position of a publisher and how that's shaped your writing moving forward. After doing this little two years now.

00;19;31;07 - 00;19;35;25
Speaker 1
I know. Yeah. So what year in 20, 20, 24.

00;19;36;10 - 00;19;37;12
Speaker 2
20, 14. What did I.

00;19;37;12 - 00;19;37;15
Speaker 1
Know?

00;19;37;15 - 00;19;41;09
Speaker 2
My numbers are hard, man. I'm not good at numbers.

00;19;41;25 - 00;20;03;26
Speaker 1
All right. So I think we like started working on things in 20, 21 and started publishing in 20, 22. Honestly, I can't remember a time. So like since the pandemic time is so compressed in my mind. But I remember Alison is a young adult in a Random House children's book dedicated to publishing love stories by people of color and starring people of color.

00;20;04;05 - 00;20;26;00
Speaker 1
And it started when it actually the idea that started in grad school when Dave and I met and that we met because we were at the same classes together and we became friends. And one of the things we had in common was that we both loved romcoms. And so we would talk about them all the time and then we would talk about the fact that, like, there were never any people of color starring in them.

00;20;26;00 - 00;20;43;05
Speaker 1
They were always like on the side and said, like, the black girl was always like the sassy sidekick that the main character would sort of tell our feelings to. And then Dave always says that the Asian guy was always like the lab tech, right? Like the one that besotted lab tech, let's say, Oh, you're pregnant and it's a girl or it's a boy or whatever.

00;20;43;24 - 00;21;04;13
Speaker 1
And they would have he says that this makes me laugh, but it's really true. Like, they were never the main characters. They were never the ones falling in love and like getting the boy or the girl or like having the big smoothie thing and being vulnerable and being smart, being the prettiest one in the room. And I know for a fact that people of color fall in love all the time because.

00;21;05;02 - 00;21;05;24
Speaker 2
Walker.

00;21;05;24 - 00;21;06;18
Speaker 1
I know you.

00;21;06;20 - 00;21;07;14
Speaker 2
Breaking news.

00;21;07;27 - 00;21;27;09
Speaker 1
Now, but you wouldn't know it from the media, right? So we always wanted to do something, but we didn't have any way to do something until we became more successful and sort of in the business and figure out how it, like, worked. And then we asked Barbara Marquez, who runs Man, who has children's books like we had the idea.

00;21;27;16 - 00;21;51;22
Speaker 1
We pitched her and she is amazing. She's been a really wonderful mentor to me over the years. And she thought this was a great idea. And so then we got this started and it's great. It's a lot of work, but it's like some of the most gratifying, amazing thing that I've ever done. Like, it's just like I, I don't sleep that much, but I love it.

00;21;52;01 - 00;22;16;19
Speaker 1
So like, we have acquisition meetings on Fridays, so we read all the submissions and some to that and our editor prior, again, they'll talk about all the submissions and then if there's something we want to acquire, we like try to go get it. You know, sometimes we end up in bidding wars and don't get the one we want, but sometimes we do get them and we have a boutique conference every day doing six a year.

00;22;17;01 - 00;22;34;28
Speaker 1
And I have to tell you, like calling a debut author and saying, Hey, we want to buy your book is like amazing. You know, it's like it's so special and when we say we want to buy your book, we're investing in that. Like, not just the one book, but like their careers. Like, we believe in that offer, like for the long haul.

00;22;34;28 - 00;22;48;02
Speaker 1
So and which is what I'll answer is really what? Like, we know, like it's book by book, but it's really a whole career body of work that you're interested in. So I don't know it's been amazing. We published some really great books.

00;22;48;13 - 00;22;56;15
Speaker 2
What have you learned as being a publisher that has helped you with your writing now moving forward from that huh?

00;22;56;15 - 00;23;19;27
Speaker 1
That's a great question, and I wish I could say that I have learned something. I mean, I do because writing is hard. No matter how many books you read. And even I can write a letter for someone else, but not for myself, because you're too in it to see it so weirdly set enough has helped my craft, but it's helped me understand the business.

00;23;19;27 - 00;23;39;28
Speaker 1
I miss them. I when someone says the voice isn't working because I've read so many manuscripts now, I know that my voice isn't working. I know that there's not actually another way to say that. So I guess I understand like a little bit. I would like the publishing side and you know, like when you're like you're trying to figure out why something is not quite connecting with you.

00;23;42;08 - 00;24;04;24
Speaker 1
I would never, ever said my first draft of anything to anyone because we have gotten the first staff some that just does the author a disservice, right? Because mostly no one's first draft is very good, right? Like it says to it, you're too many words that it's very mushy. Like you don't feel like author. You're in good hands with the other.

00;24;05;02 - 00;24;23;27
Speaker 1
My first. Yes, a terrible I would never sold a book if I had given my first after. So I mean, I don't I would never do that because we've gotten some things where I know three drafts down the line, I would have been like, oh, I want that. And we've actually done that when we've gotten things said that.

00;24;23;27 - 00;24;45;21
Speaker 1
And maybe in the third revision, we go revise and resubmit like this is so close to having something that we can work with. And that's worked a few times actually when we've gotten a manuscript in again and this sucks so much better and that we can work on revise again and stuff. And so yeah, I figure probably more from the publishing side doesn't help me.

00;24;45;21 - 00;24;49;13
Speaker 1
Unfortunately, when I'm writing because it's different, different parts of your brain.

00;24;50;09 - 00;24;57;05
Speaker 2
So you're doing all this reading from these manuscripts. How do you switch your brain to read for fun now?

00;24;57;10 - 00;25;20;24
Speaker 1
That is a good question. I don't I have always read so much like I still read two books a week of least like it just is. We all watch a lot of TV though. I play a lot of video games, but not TV. And so reading is just part of me and to know as a switch, it's I just it's OK.

00;25;21;01 - 00;25;43;24
Speaker 1
Like, I don't know. My brain is just like, OK, reading this for editorial and to some reading for fun, I can edit this even though I might. Once it was a finished book, I'm like, Oh, no, no, this is this not making sense. But if what I'm reading for work, like, if I if my editorial brain turns off, that means the book is like so close already.

00;25;44;00 - 00;26;00;10
Speaker 1
That's my favorite when I, like, forget to be, like, editing and say, oh, I don't know if that mode of visual works or whatever, that's the best when they get when we get manuscripts like that, but yeah, I don't know. I think it's just because reading is a part of me. It's easy to go back and forth.

00;26;00;17 - 00;26;05;18
Speaker 2
What kind of kind of goods do you get coming out? Joy Revolution that we should be watching for?

00;26;06;10 - 00;26;10;15
Speaker 1
Well, we're singlehandedly trying to bring back dystopian.

00;26;10;24 - 00;26;15;15
Speaker 2
He's like, Yeah, please. I've had so many kids come looking dystopian in the bookstore lately, right?

00;26;15;15 - 00;26;43;05
Speaker 1
I feel like each time I feel like it's time. So we have a dystopian coming out in the fall by Ill, too, and it's called The Dividing Sky. We have another one from Angela Montoya. Call a cool first. We have another romcom coming out. And this called Love a Clash Chocolate Love Requires Chocolate by Winston Friel. And I'm forgetting some books that we have coming out, but I'm like, it's going to be a good file.

00;26;43;05 - 00;26;44;13
Speaker 1
And the subway to fall.

00;26;44;21 - 00;27;01;16
Speaker 2
Well, I'm so excited. So when I saw you and your husband last was at your office, OK, and you guys talked about writing together. Yes. I have not seen any updates on this. This isn't still happening at tragically.

00;27;01;17 - 00;27;23;14
Speaker 1
No, no, you no, I we at the show that project, we have another idea. So hopefully both of us are so wildly busy will do that. We are working on something else that's a secret. They cannot say it's not books, though, but it's literary related.

00;27;25;01 - 00;27;32;05
Speaker 2
Oh, I need t so bad either. There's anything either of you do. I'm like, yes, I just yes, i'll tell.

00;27;32;05 - 00;27;33;01
Speaker 1
You, after all.

00;27;33;27 - 00;27;44;18
Speaker 2
This goes well, there was a couple of years ago, there was talk of the Obamas adapting blackout. Yeah, that's still happening since with all the strikes that really threw the clocks off.

00;27;44;27 - 00;28;04;19
Speaker 1
I mean, as far as I know, it's still happening. But you're right to say that the the strikes have really, like, just delayed everything. And the market is really tough right now. I think everyone is still trying to catch up. Everyone's trying to figure out what they're doing. You know, there's so much content. The streamers are pulling back.

00;28;04;19 - 00;28;07;16
Speaker 1
So we'll see. I mean, hopefully, but we'll see.

00;28;07;16 - 00;28;25;22
Speaker 2
There are so many good books that got picked up right before the strike. And now it's like we're running out of time and it makes me nervous because I want to see all these things. Yeah. I mean, your two movie adaptations were so good, so we have such high hopes for blackout. Yeah. To be another.

00;28;26;12 - 00;28;39;04
Speaker 1
Stunner. I mean, I hope still those instructions for dancing, which had been optioned and then just sort of stalled out as soon as the strikes hit. And so like now there's nothing happening or that unfortunately.

00;28;40;10 - 00;28;41;02
Speaker 2
Hollywood.

00;28;41;08 - 00;28;42;03
Speaker 1
Is hurt that.

00;28;43;15 - 00;28;44;06
Speaker 2
Fix it.

00;28;44;06 - 00;28;45;26
Speaker 1
I know. Honestly, fix it.

00;28;46;15 - 00;28;51;08
Speaker 2
The last question we always ask, since this is literary hype, what books are you hyped about?

00;28;51;20 - 00;29;14;14
Speaker 1
All right. So there's one called The Impossible US by Sarah Lots. And it's like a multiverse story, but a multiverse love story, which like there are a lot of multiverse stories lately in the zeitgeist, but I've not seen like a love story that sort of crosses like the universes. And this one's really good and it's called the impossible ask because they are in different universes and how is it going to work?

00;29;14;22 - 00;29;30;00
Speaker 1
So that's really good. The wedding by Ali Convy was just came out on the fourth. I want to say which is great mystery, but also like a meditation on like loss and grief was just really lovely.

00;29;30;27 - 00;29;34;00
Speaker 2
There's a lot of books out this year on loss and grief.

00;29;34;04 - 00;29;37;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, I mean a lot has been through a lot lately, right? Like.

00;29;38;21 - 00;29;47;06
Speaker 2
I mean, just book after book after book and I'm like, I need something happy, a happy ending. But I don't know, happiness through the whole thing.

00;29;48;04 - 00;29;55;26
Speaker 1
Romance books are booming. So like there's no shortage of like finding a set of happy outcomes to raise.

00;29;57;01 - 00;30;00;18
Speaker 2
Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us about your new book, one of our guys.

00;30;00;18 - 00;30;02;02
Speaker 1
Thank you for having me.

00;30;06;03 - 00;30;24;20
Speaker 2
Thanks again to Nikola for taking time out of her tour stop to sit down with me and talk. And we ended up chit chatting a long time after camera and like her event was so great. So if you want to get a hold of one of our kind instructions for dancing, the sun is also a star everything. Everything.

00;30;24;25 - 00;30;40;21
Speaker 2
She also wrote on Blackout and Whiteout. So there's a lot of options. If you want to check out Nicholas writing and I highly recommend you do the links to buy those books are in the show notes for you. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the literary podcast. Give us some stars and share it with your friends.

00;30;41;20 - 00;30;44;07
Speaker 2
Thanks for listening to the literary hype podcast.