Hiss & Tell: Cat Behavior and Beyond

Exploring Veterinary Chaplaincy: Supporting Pet Loss with Dr. Rob Gierka & Karen Duke

• Kristiina Wilson • Season 2 • Episode 22

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Imagine a world where the loss of a beloved pet is met with the same compassion and understanding as the loss of a human companion. This episode introduces you to the heartfelt field of veterinary chaplaincy, a realm dedicated to offering spiritual and emotional support during these challenging times. Joining me are Dr. Rob Gierka, the visionary founder of PetChaplain.com, and Karen Duke, the compassionate senior vice president. Together, they share their personal tales of how they were drawn into this meaningful work, highlighting the deep emotional impact of pet loss and underscoring the importance of providing support and options to those in need.

As the conversation unfolds, we explore the valuable role of veterinary chaplains in offering empathy and a listening ear, especially during trying times. Though formal certification in this field is still on the horizon, educational programs are paving the way for individuals passionate about this calling. We delve into community chaplaincy as a flexible, accessible avenue for providing spiritual care, discussing how this practice can flourish in veterinary hospitals, pet loss support groups, and even church communities. Our dialogue emphasizes the intense emotions felt after losing a pet and how storytelling, rituals, and the continuation of bonds can help navigate this profound journey of grief.

Honoring the memory of our pets becomes a central theme, with poignant stories of rituals and personal tributes. From creating shrines to writing letters and sharing memories, we discuss how these acts can facilitate healing and reflection. There's a deep exploration of the spiritual aspects of pet loss, including personal beliefs about communing with pets in the afterlife. We reflect on how pets shape our lives and how we can pay forward the love they gave us, enriching both human and animal connections. Don't miss this episode filled with empathy, personal stories, and a deep appreciation for the bonds we share with our beloved animals.

Kristiina Wilson:

Hi and welcome to Hiss and Tell a cat behavior and more podcast hosted by me, Christina Wilson, animal behaviorist. Before we lost Steve and Mimi, I had never even heard of a veterinary chaplain and I didn't know that spiritual care was available for those of us going through the loss of a beloved animal, and so I'm really excited to share today's episode with you guys. I spoke with veterinary chaplains Dr Rob Gierka and Karen Duke, so let's get into it, and if you're grieving, I hope you're able to get some help and resources out of this episode. Hi, welcome to another episode of Hits and Tell. I am your host, Christina Wilson, and with me today is Dr Rob Gierka, the founder and president of PetChaplaincom, and Karen Duke, senior vice president of PetChaplaincom. Welcome you guys. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Really appreciate having you here. Oh, thank you for having us.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Thanks, Christina.

Kristiina Wilson:

So can you tell me a little bit about what it is that you do and what inspired you to become a veterinary chaplain?

Dr Rob Gierka:

Well, I grew up in a big family, catholic family and we had a lot of pets. My mom was a pet person and at one time I think we had 14 cats, including three litters of kittens, a couple of dogs, two rabbits, a bunch of gerbils, and that was the environment that I grew up in oh and 10 kids. Oh, yeah, oh wow, did I say we were Catholic?

Kristiina Wilson:

Yes, very Catholic yes.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And you know my mom loved animals. She was always putting food out to feed them, so we were getting more and more all the time, and so I learned to love animals, but also learn how it feels when you lose them.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yes.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And it's very, very painful, and I've had a lot of experiences of losing pets and having to deal with the consequences, and so that got me interested early, at an early age, in the idea of compassion. So I have a story when I was about 14. Fred, not Freddy, freddy's mom she didn't have a name because she was feral she got into our basement and had two kittens. One of them we named Peanut because she was a little yellow cat and she was shaped like a peanut. You could hold her in your hand, you know. And then there was Freddie. Freddie was pretty robust and he took the food and ate, but peanut, what wasn't peanut was always frail, but I kept trying to feed her and so I would go and she would sit by the fridge right where the hot air came out at the bottom yeah and I would pick her up and feed her whatever I could a little piece of turkey or something and but one day I noticed she was wheezing.

Dr Rob Gierka:

So we took her to the vet. My mom, my mom and I drove Well, actually I was older than her, I think I was older, I was probably about 18. I think I just got my license Right. Anyway, I drove mom to the vet and it had a huge impact on me. I think it was my first time at the vet. We couldn't afford to go to the vet, really, mostly because, you know, we just didn't have that kind of money. Sure, she took Peanut in and the vet said, well, she's got pneumonia and see, we're probably going to have to put her down. And I protested and the vet said, well, okay, we can either give her this shot to put her to sleep or we can give her some penicillin. And my mother voted for the penicillin and I was very happy about that because I thought we'd give her a chance. Yeah, well, pina didn't make it. By the time we got her home she was gone.

Kristiina Wilson:

I'm so sorry.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And that really touched me, because one the vet gave us a choice and I appreciated the vet and my mom chose life in a compassionate response and that made me think and so that's kind of where it started Me, trying to think about what it feels like to lose animals and what we can do, you know, as professionals and as pet owners or pet keepers. We like to say to help.

Kristiina Wilson:

Thank you for sharing that. I can really see and hear how affected you still are.

Dr Rob Gierka:

You know I am, and when I talk about these stories I sometimes I'm put back into that circumstance, and I know that grief lasts a long time. So you know we work with each other in those moments to try to get through it.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. That was very touching. Karen, do you want to share what inspired you?

Karen Duke:

I won't tell a sad story. Mine is more. I met Rob back in 2012 and we hit it off right away and I was really intrigued by his work. At that point See 2012,. He had established Pet Chaplain work at that point see 2012,. He had established Pet Chaplain, founded Pet Chaplain in 2004. And I was just I'd always had animals in my life, you know, grew up with animals, like Rob did and like many of us did.

Karen Duke:

And I was just really intrigued by it. And he, rob, had, and still is facilitating a pet loss support group through the SPCA, and so I started joining him in those support groups and learning more and more about his work. And at that time he was in the midst of finishing up a doctoral degree in adult education and he had a research focus on pet loss and bereavement.

Karen Duke:

And so as part of that, he had interviewed 16 veterinary technology students about pets that they had loved and lost and he was really interested. The focus of the study was how did their experiences with their pets influence their career choice? And I did the transcriptions for those and just fell in love. Just absolutely fell in love with these animal. You know, these aspiring veterinary professionals Just fantastic, amazing stories of how influential their experiences with their pets, most of them when they were children, but not all of them. Some of them had acquired these special pets when they were adults and it was just. I'm a storyteller, I'm a writer and a graphic designer and a painter and I just love the stories.

Karen Duke:

And you know, we went from there and when he finished his degree, we took a few, he took a few years off. It was a long slog to getting through the doctoral degree. That's when we decided to start an online course in veterinary chaplaincy. And I should also mention Rob had trained as a chaplain at a human hospital, so he had the spiritual skill and background in interfaith spiritual care. So we were able to put together a course. We didn't charge anything. We really just wanted to see what would happen. We didn't promote it. We didn't charge anything, we really just wanted to see what would happen. We didn't promote it. We got that first time, I think.

Karen Duke:

We had a six week course and we incorporated some of the research that Rob had done for his dissertation as well as the stories about the pets from the most amazing experience. Somehow, people found us and we found that there was a real interest in this and so by the time we taught for five years and by the time we decided we could put the course on hold, we had we're probably training 30 students at a time and which was? It was a very intensive experience because it's very small a lot of small group work, a lot of talking about our pets and the stories and our own experiences with pets, which is an important part of chaplaincy education and we can get to that. But that was it. I mean, I honestly felt like I had no background in any kind of caregiving role, but it was so compelling and the people I met just the most amazing, wonderful, compassionate people, these animal lovers.

Kristiina Wilson:

And.

Karen Duke:

I felt like I had put my toe in a river and just got whoosh, and that's what it still feels like, because it's just so compelling and so needed and I was just so moved. But you know, and so we put the course on hold and now we're taking all the written lectures we've developed over that five years and created. Now we're creating a book series. I really want to bring this message to as many people as possible.

Kristiina Wilson:

I think it's. That's amazing and I think it, especially listening to this podcast, knows that pet loss grief is often so disenfranchised and it can be so lonely and so difficult for people. So I think the more tools and the more help that we have can only benefit people struggling with this often much deeper grief than people expect. So how would you describe the role of a veterinary chaplain to someone who has never heard of this before? Because I do think it's something that's kind of new to people.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Well, karen mentioned the chaplaincy training that I had in the hospital clinical pastoral education. It's a clinical program for hospital chaplains, but in that program I learned quite a bit about grief and responding to grief. One of the things that I did and this was really started when I wrote my dissertation I came up with a method of interviewing that I used for the vet techs but now I also use in my work, which we call the chaplain C's C standing for the connection, communication with others and coping. So it helps to have some framework when you're engaging, because you know it can be an emotional experience for the care provider as well as the person you know.

Dr Rob Gierka:

so if you're attached to animals and you're trying to be a caring presence for someone, you can be triggered by your own grief. So we give people this structure that helps, that helps them to at least. It gives them categories of areas of discussion. Talk about the connection with your pet. What was that like? You know, how wonderful was your animal Exactly? Tell us more about that. And people you know people will talk about their pet and it's a wonderful thing. But then we try to probe in the social area and we know that many of the issues that come up for a grieving person can spring from either a disconnect or a lack of connection with their social networks or a reduced time in response. Sometimes people, after two weeks you know people find that others are less likely to ask them how they're doing.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yes.

Dr Rob Gierka:

So we go there on the social, we talk about that, find out what's it like at church, what's it like at school, at work, at home. You know who's helping you, who's supporting you in this, and often we find that people are grieving alone. And then the last C of the structure is the coping. What helps? We ask what helps, how can we improve that? And we talk about that, and so it's really kind of it's about reframing. Here's what exists, here's the reality, and so how can we look at this? Maybe in a way that might make you feel a little more comforted. So that's what we do, and this is primarily a process that we have in the books and that we used in our class and we teach our students.

Karen Duke:

Right, yeah, and I will say too on a on kind of a high level, like what a pet chaplains or veterinary chaplains do. So what Rob mentioned with this storytelling method that you would use in, say, one-on-one conversations If, say, you're in a busy veterinary hospital and somebody is just really struggling with, you know, euthanizing their pet, and you know, very often you may not have very long to spend with them maybe 15 to 30 minutes in a busy clinic and so this method is actually based on kind of part of the crisis intervention techniques that people use in those situations. So that's one-on-one kind of conversation. But being spiritual caregivers, you also might get involved in creating rituals and memorials or eulogies for animals. So that's another important service and I think we can talk more about that.

Karen Duke:

It's so important to take that time to remember, to remember right, yes, and so that's another thing. And just the process of talking with someone and sharing you know, if I've lost my pet and talking with a sympathetic listener is really curious about my story and it's a wonderful way to just telling your story to someone who really is sympathetic and empathetic with what you're experiencing is very healing in itself. And then also sometimes chaplains can play a leadership role. I can imagine how difficult it was, say, during COVID in veterinary clinics, with all of the pressures that that brought on and people not being able to be with their pets that a presence of a really calm chaplain, who people for staff, you know, staff support, that's really, really important, and same would apply in rescue organizations that you might, you know, pull everyone together for a just a collective prayer. You can frame it as a prayer or a secular reflection. You know we're very, we're very flexible. So really, the care that you provide is driven by the needs of the person you're working with.

Kristiina Wilson:

Of course you're working with, Of course. So that leads me into and I know we've already touched on it a little bit but what kind of training or certification is required to do what you guys do, to be a veterinary chaplain?

Karen Duke:

Well, I'll take that one. There really is no certification, true certification program, at this point. This field is so new. When we taught our course we didn't promise people that we were certifying, because certifying would imply you know a governing body Exactly, I mean professional chaplains who work in hospitals go through hundreds and hundreds of hours of client care and extended units and study, you know, before they become board certified.

Karen Duke:

So we don't promise that, but we have provided a very thorough education in. What we've developed now is we've kind of identified seven key competencies that our book series addresses. And of course reading a book is not the same as practicing. So practice is a critical part of this. But we're on our way. So we're hoping that the plans for the future I mean you might speak to that, rob that we may get to a certification. It's just, it's a long process.

Kristiina Wilson:

No, I can imagine To do that yes.

Karen Duke:

I will mention, though, that we have a big emphasis, we're big believers in what you might call community chaplaincy, and it's more of a lay ministry. You don't have to be board certified. We found that we've worked with a lot of people who they chaplaincy may not, or spiritual care may not be their primary work, say a vet, but a vet who's trained in some of these techniques and who understand these concepts, or even yourself. I mean you work with people and their animals. You know we had a cat behaviorist who took our program and you know it really helps you do your job better.

Kristiina Wilson:

I'm sure, and I think it would be amazing for vets to take your course. I think so amazing, especially because they're obviously the ones in the room when people's pets are passing.

Karen Duke:

So I think that would that would be amazing, Right right, yeah, so we just want to make this accessible to people. We've had other folks who, with no prior experience, just took the training and ran and started a pet ministry at their church, running pet loss support groups. So you know, it's really uh, we, we really feel like it's a long way from where it's a profession, say a bona fide profession, but this is a great place to start, I agree.

Kristiina Wilson:

Can you kind of share what a typical day in your work looks like? If you have a typical day, maybe you don't have a typical day.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Well, you know that's changed for us. I think I spent about two years at a large veterinary hospital veterinary teaching hospital as a chaplain. I carried a pager 24 hour on call. I was doing rounds on the large and small animal hospital, spending time with folks in the quiet room, working with faculty students and and clients who are requesting support. You know that's one context. There are many other contexts. Like you mentioned, you're a behaviorist, so for you a typical day would be very different for somebody who's working in a veterinary hospital.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Today we spend a lot of time writing and researching, but I still run a support group and I've been running this through the SPCA our local SPCA for almost 19 years and you know that group, you know, is a really useful place for people to come who just need a listening ear. Others who have had the same experience. You know is a really useful place for people to come who just need a listening ear. Others who have had the same experience. You know I listen and try to get the story there, but for us, for now, it's our students who are really plugging in and, as Karen mentioned, many of them are using it in their practices and using it in their churches. I think one of our primary audiences what we hope to folks that we hope to reach are people in churches who love animals and want to support other members of the church or other members of the community. So that would be a context that we're really trying to support, at least initially, with this.

Kristiina Wilson:

Right, I think that's such a lovely idea. How do you provide emotional support to pet owners who are dealing with the illness or loss of their pets? Or how do you rather, since you guys are focusing a little bit differently how would veterinary chaplains provide?

Karen Duke:

emotional support. I guess the main thing, the top thing with chaplaincy is just being a really good listener, Sure, and knowing how to listen and what to listen for. And you know, it's kind of chaplaincy is a different sort of practice, it's a very. It's actually based on counseling techniques developed by a psychologist named Carl Rogers and it's client focused. So it's very much driven by the needs of whoever the care seeker is and your job is to learn to listen to how that person. You know what happened, who did they lose, what did that? And then that's where our storytelling method comes in. You know what was your connection with that animal and what kind of social support system do you have. But it's really, really truly feeling heard by someone is an amazing experience. You know, in American culture we're very fast paced. We're very kind of driven toward problem solving. I'm going to solve this problem for you.

Karen Duke:

Grief and death are not what I would consider a problem you can solve. It's something that you just kind of have to. You know, death happens. We don't have control of it. Okay, how do we respond to this? And that's where possibly reframing if people get stuck in places where they're, you know, guilt is a real common one of that endless cycle. What if? What if? What if? You know, if I'd only done this, things would go differently. You know that kind of thing, so you know a big part of this, because people are often very much surprised by how intensely they grieve, normalizing it. You know that. No, you're not crazy. You may feel like you're going crazy, but you're not crazy. This is just. This is what happens when we lose an important loved one, and pets are just so important important part of our lives, so.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, I, and I think that people are often shocked at, like you said, at the amount of grief that they feel. But our pets are with us in many cases 24, seven, especially because so many of us are working from home now and and when we lose them, it really is such a big hole. It's so difficult.

Karen Duke:

We call that the loudest silence. Yes, I mean it's just. You feel like you've lost your home. Yeah, you know, and you're wandering in the wilderness. I mean it's really a frightening experience and feeling afraid that you're not going to be able to handle it. How am I going to go on? How am I going to rebuild my life? What does the future look like without this animal that I was? So then you mentioned with you 24-7, and very often in your lap, yes. With the physical aspect, and that's. That's huge, it's huge.

Kristiina Wilson:

It is, it really is huge. But I lost my cat Steve, who I considered my other half, who even my wife knows he was my other half.

Kristiina Wilson:

I had him for 14 years and he was my true soulmate and it's been like a year and some change now and I think I'll struggle with it my entire life. I've tried so many things Like I've tried sound baths and meditationsitations and I went out west to the rocks, to, you know, be with things that are ancient and old, and it's been such a such an interesting journey of trying to still connect with him and find him in some kind of spiritual way. I don't, I don't even know what I'm trying to say, but I just I really sympathize with people going going through this, especially with the animals they sort of consider their soulmates, because it's such a deep and profound loss it is.

Karen Duke:

It's indescribable relationship yeah, yes, he really was my, my other half yeah, we recognize an important point to to think about is that you know you can keep many, many pets, but every now and then one will come along that, for whatever reason, you just have this bond with and we hear a lot of stories about that and sometimes it's the duration like that animal has been with me through so much and was always there for me when I was going through other really rough times in my life and I could always count on that animal or just this real sense of attunement that you can't really explain and animals are amazing that way. So, yeah, it is. And actually the title of our first book is Heart Animals because we really that's the soulmate, the heart animals where it feels like you've lost part of yourself yeah and it's it is.

Karen Duke:

It's really hard and I hear you when you're trying to maintain somehow, hold on to that connection and nurture that connection, and that is important it's so weird.

Kristiina Wilson:

It's like when he was born in my house, when I was like fostering his mom, and it's like we just recognized each other immediately. It was just like that. That was it so weird I've never had a connection like that with with any other soul, so anyway, this podcast is not about me.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Can I ask you a question?

Kristiina Wilson:

Yes, of course.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Is um. How is? Is that special relationship you had relate to your work?

Kristiina Wilson:

Um, you know, it's funny, I was a fashion photographer for 20 years and I was when. It's funny, I was a fashion photographer for 20 years and I was when, you know, he was born in my studio and it wasn't until seven years ago or so. I was like I don't want to be doing this anymore and I had always been doing work with animals on the side as my way of giving back and, you know, being of service, and so that's that's why he and his mom and siblings and everyone were, they were in my studio. But then I reached a certain point in a certain age where I was like I can't participate in this fashion world anymore and I thought really like I'd really like my life to be more of service and I realized I could go back to school, get my graduate degree in animal behavior and start doing this full time. And because of Steve, he was very famous online because he used those speech buttons I taught him during COVID.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Oh, wow.

Kristiina Wilson:

But he was extremely bossy. He was probably one of the smartest people I've ever met, so he learned immediately and was just very bossy. So he became very famous and that really helped me be able to help more people because he built this platform around him. I was never in the videos, but it was very helpful to bring more awareness to behavior and to be able to launch this podcast and do all of these things. He was really like my partner in business also, weirdly and my partner in outreach and when we did other work with animals, he was welcoming to any animal that we brought into the house to do foster work and he was just really the head of the family, so it's been tough for everybody in the house.

Kristiina Wilson:

Wow, that's amazing.

Dr Rob Gierka:

What a story.

Kristiina Wilson:

He was really the most amazing soul that I've ever met, so it's been very difficult for me to even just continue as a person without him.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And your work honors him.

Kristiina Wilson:

That's what keeps me going.

Dr Rob Gierka:

It's been difficult.

Karen Duke:

And that was the same sort of thing we heard. The stories that the vet techs shared was that they were doing this to honor their pets and their pets memories it was it was the fuel that, that love they had, that extraordinary experience of connection, kept them going right. Yeah, and it's. It's really amazing how animals shape our lives.

Kristiina Wilson:

It is. It really is, and he really has created an amazing community that still is thriving. You know, all his followers are still very robust and amazing, wonderful, supportive people that support our rescue work, so I'm so grateful for him and all of his. His people are just the best people, so they're the people who listen to this podcast anyway. So all thanks to Steve. What are some like rituals or ceremonies that you may or may not offer for pets who are ill or who have passed away? Are there any things you can share that might be helpful for people?

Dr Rob Gierka:

I could start Well before I had. I do Zoom calls now for my pork group, but prior to that I was meeting in person at the SPCA and they gave us a. They were so nice, they gave us a little room to meet in and a very nice weekly meeting and a couple of times a year we would have a service just to celebrate the lives of our animals and we would do it in this big atrium, beautiful setting there at the facility and we would usually have about 20, 25, 30 people and they would briefly introduce the pet to folks. Each would take a turn and I always would pass out a little piece of paper, just a small scrap of paper and a pencil or pen, to everyone and ask them to write down a note to their pet. And it was either you know, I love you, do you forgive me, or just a nice little message, and one at a time.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Folks would take that up to the front of the room and we had a candle there, a big candle in a bowl, and they would light the piece of paper and drop it in the bowl and the smoke would go up. And it was a very physical, tangible way of making connection with your pet and feeling as though you were communing with your animal. So that was a very helpful service and we still recommend that to folks and many of the people that come to my support group have tried that and used that. But there are other things that can help. A lot of folks enjoy prayer, sometimes a secular reflection.

Dr Rob Gierka:

There are a number of really good writers and we're putting some of those resources in our books. So prayer can help. But one of the things that really can help a lot is journaling. If you just keep a daily journal and write down things that you think of, things you remember about your pet, things you want to say to them, you can write them down. And also building a shrine. A shrine is a very important part of the process of acknowledging that value and meaning that that pet brought to your life. So you know there are various different kinds of shrines you can build, but it's all very unique and special for every person and pet.

Dr Rob Gierka:

So those are some of the things that we've come upon, you think of more.

Karen Duke:

That's the only ritual I can think of. Well, there is another one that Now we've never done this, but it might be kind of interesting to hear. This is actually from Japan, a big, pet-loving country, and it's Buddhist, typically Buddhist, but it has Shinto, which is kind of indigenous spiritual tradition, so it's tempered in that way. But there's a wonderful book called Bones of Contention, by a religious study scholar, barbara Ambrose, and one of the rituals that they have is that once, say, a cremation, but the bones remain intact and there's these large urns that they have, large One by one you might put family members or whoever's at the ceremony. Would you know, take and put a bone in the urn.

Karen Duke:

And the very last bone. It's interesting, the very last bone to go into the urn is the voice box, the voice. So I just always found that really fascinating that that would be the very last to go into the earnest, the idea of representing that animal's or that loved one's voice, right.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And they call that bone the Buddha bone. The reason they call it the Buddha bone is if you set it up on the table it looks like a sitting Buddha. So they really feel special about their animals and the Shinto shrines respect that and provide that service.

Karen Duke:

I think the main thing is just to be creative. I mean, really there's not a lot of you know formal traditions out there, so we're kind of creating them. You might find some tradition from another place that just you find personally appealing and whatever's meaningful to you. That's the main thing. I mean, just make it a sacred, sacred moment.

Dr Rob Gierka:

We have a story told to us by a vet who took our class. She's up in Detroit, she's a mobile vet with her own practice and she said that one of the most beautiful services she's ever experienced was when she arrived at the service. They were in the forest and they were processing with candles and they came to a circle and they circled around a fire and everybody spoke about knowing their pet and it was just, she said it was one of the most touching and beautiful services she's ever been to. So you know, like Karen's saying, we have to be creative because, you know, we're kind of bootstrapping this.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree. I think rituals and ceremonies are so important.

Dr Rob Gierka:

If we talk about anticipatory grief, if in that time before a loss, when you are anticipating that Many of our students create a bucket list you know and will take their pet to places they know and love and do things with them.

Karen Duke:

Feed them favorite foods, whatever is going to be for that animal and whatever, whatever health situation they have, that they can manage, just to try to create something.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Yes, enjoy the time you have and give structure like you say, give structure to your life and to create something, enjoy the time you have and give structure, like you say, give structure to your life and to your time, yes, very important it doesn't mean as you said.

Karen Duke:

It doesn't mean you're not going to feel sad, but it gives you another way to get dizzy and take action and do something meaningful.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, not to bring this always back to me, but you know.

Kristiina Wilson:

I have too much experience with this, unfortunately, recently that Steve had a very aggressive cancer and so for three months he seemed normal and then it just got worse and worse, you know. So we knew he was sick but he still he seemed okay, which was very strange to confront, to see your best friend and know he was going to be dead soon Very weird. So the anticipatory grief, I think, is so awful, it's so awful and it's something that is not talked about a lot. And then towards the end, you know, he had a feeding tube because he was still running and playing, but we he couldn't eat anymore. But we created, like you said, a plan, we call it the fuck it plan, and it was just that he was allowed to do whatever he wanted, so he could go run in the woods because we didn't have to worry anymore about Lyme disease or, you know he could do, he could eat as many Doritos as he wanted and grow up, you know whatever, he wanted to do.

Kristiina Wilson:

He loved to go for long walks and so he, you know, walk up to neighbor's houses because he was so confident he thought every house was his house and he just it was.

Kristiina Wilson:

It was such a heavy, sad time but it was also in many ways such a connecting, joyful time because we really focused so much on him. And the other cats also obviously knew he was ill, I'm sure that he smelled different they could smell the cancer, I'm sure and they were also surrounding him and hugging him all the time and really being there for him. And so there were so many beautiful moments that I think because we had the structure and we were like, what can we do for Steve today? That's going to like be extra fun it really did help what was a truly incredibly difficult time.

Karen Duke:

Right, right.

Kristiina Wilson:

So that's that's great.

Karen Duke:

One more thing before we move on. Just think about there are so many milestones in our lives with our pets. So welcoming ceremonies, adoption ceremonies, even if, you know, sometimes pets have to be relinquished against the pet keeper's. Will you know, older people struggle with this If, say, they have to move into an assist, they have to leave their home and they go to a facility that doesn't allow pets. Move into an assist, they have to leave their home and they go to a facility that doesn't allow pets. And so, rehoming pets, you know any of those occasions. It's important. I think it is helpful to mark them with some kind of simple ceremony.

Karen Duke:

Yeah, I absolutely agree, I think we should talk about spirituality and actually in terms of what chaplains do, because I think there is some misperception. Okay, you know, most people have never encountered a chaplain and if they have, it was in a hospital, maybe, right, and so you know, you think, oh it's. You know, maybe it's Christian, maybe it's potentially evangelical. They get nervous about it because there's a lot of people who aren't religious, or they consider themselves spiritually not religious or they're atheist, whatever. And we really are very sensitive to the fact that people have lots of different cosmologies, lots of different ways of framing their understanding of this world, this incredible world that we live in. So we try. We are interfaith chaplains, meaning that we're prepared to work with anyone, regardless of their faith, tradition or whether they identify as spiritual, not religious, or some other. Maybe they're Wiccan. You know that's really growing in popularity. A lot of the earth-focused spiritual traditions are kind of regaining, surging back, sort of thing.

Karen Duke:

Death raises a lot of questions for people. You know, what happens to our pets when they've passed? What happens to them? Do you still feel your pet's presence? That's very common. That's where we think that chaplains have something special to offer, because we are open to a spiritual conversation and it is a conversation. It really is. Well, let's take some time to think about this. What do you think happens? You know, it's not about what we might believe. It's really up to the person who you know has suffered the loss, right?

Dr Rob Gierka:

I've got a story, yeah please.

Dr Rob Gierka:

When I was chaplain at the vet school there was a lady and she'd been referred to me and actually referred to me by her psychologist, who called the vet school and she lost her pet at the vet school. She was seeing her psychologist and the psychologist couldn't help and he reached out at the vet school and said look, you know who's your chaplain. I got my number, reached out to me and asked if it'd be okay if she called me and I said it'd be fine, I didn't know about this lady. Well, she called me and she started to tell me her story and she said well, my husband died a year ago and just last month I lost my cat and they were really good friends.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And she said you know, sometimes I'm sitting on the couch like I would sit with my husband and my cat and we'd watch TV. And just the other day I was sitting there and I felt her jump on the couch Am I going crazy? And I said oh no, that's a common experience. And then she said and she started to whisper and she said do you think they're in heaven together, my husband and my cat? And I said, and I whispered back. I said what do you think? And she said I think they are. And I told her, I said I think you're right.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And she was just long silence and she said thank you, I think I'll be okay. That's all she wanted to know.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, it's a nice story. I think psychologists and psychiatrists from my experience are not quite equipped to know what to say in these situations. In fact, my own have just said outright I don't really know how to help you. You know they want to, but I think they just don't know how to handle this. So I think it's wonderful that veterinary chaplains are now more well-known and pet loss grief counselors are starting to become a thing, because it's just so underserved and, like the woman in your story, people just want to be heard and acknowledged and it can be so difficult to find someone and I think, especially in our Western culture, it's so solution oriented and it's true, your friends and your family will drop off after a week or two. I had people say to me like you're still sad, you know, like just shocked, and I was like, yes, it's like someone chopped off half my body. You know, it's.

Kristiina Wilson:

I'm going to be sad forever.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Yeah.

Kristiina Wilson:

So maybe you gain your functionality back.

Dr Rob Gierka:

But that's right.

Kristiina Wilson:

There's always an absence. I'll never not be sad.

Dr Rob Gierka:

That's right Right.

Kristiina Wilson:

And so I think it's just it's really great that there are more people here to help and to do that outreach, and I really appreciate you sharing that story. I think it's going to really resonate with a lot of people who are listening. And that kind of leads me to ask you, like, how you navigate the conversations about the afterlife of pets, especially if the pet owner holds certain religious or spiritual beliefs.

Karen Duke:

Well, I guess really it's just having. In one of the books in our series, the one that's focused on practice, we do include a long section where we talk about teachings about animals in the mainstream faith traditions and then we also include a similar discussion about alternative spiritual practices and atheism and cosmology, and spiritual but not religious. So I think that you know, if you have a basic understanding of how these faith traditions frame what happens to living beings after the physical body is gone, really you can work with anybody.

Karen Duke:

You may not be an expert in their spiritual beliefs, but you don't have to be because they are. It's really a matter of opening the conversation, knowing how to ask those kind of questions that help them really look deep and think about it and really, you know, articulate what they believe. And all of it is a matter of faith. You know. There's no well I, there's no need to prove it. You know, in a science-driven world they're just two completely different things.

Karen Duke:

And I'll mention, say, in Western society, in a Christian-based society, I think very often our religious lives are in. You know, assuming you're religious, maybe your religious life is one part of your life and your pets are another. I mean, there's just not a lot of sadly, not a lot of discussion in our churches about animals and our relationship with animals. And given the rise in pet keeping and the intense bonds that people are forming with their pets I mean they're family members, they're our babies, they're our soulmates, like you're saying I think that maybe that's beginning to change, that there's a realization, like we get calls from ministers who they haven't kept pets. They don't really understand it, but they're like something's going on here. I mean I have so many of my congregants, you know, really grieving intensely for the animals and I don't know, like your counselor, I don't know how to respond right.

Karen Duke:

You know we talk a lot about empathy, like empathy is the be all, end all and certainly that's wonderful when you can truly empathize with someone's perspective. But we kind of argue that sympathy is more important because you may not have really I mean beliefs about animals very widely in our society. I mean beliefs about animals vary widely in our society and you know we talk about having two impulses imagination and generosity. So I'm going to try to imagine what your experience like is like, even if I haven't experienced it myself, and I'm going to be generous in terms of saying well, I see that this is really important to you and trying to operate from that, always from position of compassion. Basically, if you could start there, you can't go wrong.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, absolutely. How has working as a veterinary chaplain kind of impacted your own personal views on life and death and relationships with animals? If you want to get into all of that, it's a really loaded question. That's a great question.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Well, is that for?

Karen Duke:

me.

Kristiina Wilson:

Tell me everything.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Well, it's transformed my life. You know, like I said, my mom was the pet keeper and the pet lover and I've had pets in my life and some I've loved very well, but doing this work and talking to so many people that love pets, love their animals and have lost really special animals, it has changed my heart. It has given me a sense that we're all one, and some of the recent research and I really respect your work, christina some of the recent research in animals is moving into this area of the umwelt. You understand the animal's perspective and that's the biggest change for me is that I've really started to tune in to what is good for this animal and not so much from my perspective, from what they call an anthropocentric stance. You know what's good for them from their perspective and that's a hard thing and I've seen some of your work and I'm very impressed with your ability to do that and you have a real gift.

Kristiina Wilson:

Thank you.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And so that's the thing I'm starting to notice. It's just really understanding and tuning in from the animals, yeah.

Karen Duke:

I'll add to that that for myself personally it's very much the same sort of thing. It's been a real awakening. I mean, I've always loved animals, they've been a part of my life, but to really understand and with the research that we've done and the stories and all the people we talk with, they are essential to us. I mean, we're animals.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yep, you know we are, we're primates.

Karen Duke:

We sometimes try to pretend that, oh we're, there's just those animals. And then there's us, and it's like no folks, we are animals, yes, and I think when you realize that and embrace that, it's just, it's wonderful. And so, even like we both are big nature lovers and you know, and I'm a big gardener and the we live in an urban area, you know we're not surrounded by wild animals or anything other than squirrels and rabbits and birds and some snakes.

Karen Duke:

But, you know, it's like when a when a squirrel steals one of my tomatoes, I'm not thinking of that squirrel as, oh, that darn squirrel is what it passed. I'm like, well, there's my neighbor squirrel, and you know there's plenty to share.

Karen Duke:

And so it's really just this sense of, it's a shift of really thinking of my own animalness and my connection with all the life that's around me, that I think, when we get all caught up in our very busy human lives that are just the human stuff that we have going on, you can kind of forget that. And I think that our pets can help us bridge that disconnect that we might feel from the natural world. And what a wonderful, wonderful thing. And so, yeah, it's really radically changed our lives. I mean, we could go on at length too about how contemplating death not something we all necessarily want to talk to, but we spend a lot of time talking about it and thinking about it. You know, when you do that, that also is transformational. Maybe it's not quite as scary. Yeah, you know it's the bookends of our life. You know it's inevitable, so we embrace it and we don't fight so hard against it. You do what you can, but then there's a lot to be gained by recognizing, you know, the cycle that we're all a part of.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, yeah, I agree Absolutely. I know, I think that it's like you said. I think it's so important to just recognize that like, oh, it's coming and it's maybe not such a big deal, and it's something everyone goes through it, everyone has gone through it in the history of times.

Karen Duke:

Well, it's a cultural thing to some extent. You know we hide death in our culture.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yes, we do.

Karen Duke:

And everything's illness.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, but even birth, everything is removed from the home. Now, everything medical is removed from the home and it's so strange that we just live this like very sanitized, bizarre life Right.

Karen Duke:

We don't even show old bodies, no. It's really it's bizarre. I mean, it's really it's bizarre, I think, and I think it's unhealthy and you know right. And as a consequence of that it becomes this big fearful thing. Yeah.

Kristiina Wilson:

And it doesn't have to be, I agree.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Well, here's a tip. This is an important aspect of grief and loss that we talk about in our book and it comes out of recent psych literature. But thoughts of death do something subconscious to human beings, and we know this from the research. And what that does is it raises our anxiety and we may not even know that we've had this trigger. You know, maybe we saw something on TV, maybe somebody told us about something that happened to them, maybe we had a scare. Our pet is going through some difficulty and we have thoughts of death, you know, and their death, but those it's the animal is is part of you. It's, it's so close that when you, when you're triggered by a serious illness by your pet, those thoughts come up and but you don't know that that your anxiety is gone up. It just happens to you and in our society, the way we react to that unconscious anxiety is we buy stuff, the when the going gets tough, the tough go shopping. And that's true. That's true and it's true because that's how we deal with anxiety.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And you think about this for a minute.

Dr Rob Gierka:

What if you're at the vet hospital and the vet tells you this bad news?

Dr Rob Gierka:

The first thing that happens, unbeknownst to you is, you're highly anxious and so, knowing as chaplains we do as chaplains that this is a very debilitating moment for a person, they're very likely to want to throw money at a problem, and so that's sometimes. You know what we recommend in those times. You know, if you're talking to somebody and say, oh, I just got a bad diagnosis, what do I do? We take a person aside and we've learned through our study that if you just take 20 minutes and have a cup of coffee and just sit with somebody who's good at listening, that lowers your anxiety level and that will help you make a better decision. That's better for your pet and better for you. And so we don't talk about this detail to folks when we help them you know about the research and all that stuff what we do is we take them for a cup of coffee and so, but we know that it gives them a better chance to make the decision for them and for their pet. That serves both.

Kristiina Wilson:

That makes a lot of sense. That's very interesting and not really surprising, I think. So I want to ask you guys a few listener questions that we got. The first is my soul cat passed too soon due to a misdiagnosis. I still harbor anger towards the vet.

Karen Duke:

How can I let go. Yeah, that's a tough one.

Kristiina Wilson:

Anger and guilt.

Karen Duke:

Yes, they're kind of two sides of the same coin, you know, because guilt is anger directed at yourself, and those are very, very powerful emotions. They're important emotions. We should not deny and try to suppress those feelings. But you know, when it starts to kind of hang on and hang on and hang on and you can't let it go, you start to realize that you're really just. It just hurts you in the long run.

Karen Duke:

The vet I don't know what the listener's interaction was with their vet If they were met with a brick wall. I mean, it happens. We've heard stories like that of animals that misdiagnosis or surgery that was supposed to go smoothly and the animal passed, and you know stories like that and unfortunately it can be a problem because animals are property legally and there really there's no recourse. Yeah, there really isn't. And that makes it hard, the injustice of it and I hear the injustice of it of not having anything that you can do to address this problem. But I mean, ultimately that's becomes down to it. What can you do? So you know, I think writing a letter to the vet it doesn't mean you have to send it. Talking with people sharing your story, finding support, self-care, you know, it's ultimately a self-compassion to try to forgive.

Dr Rob Gierka:

Well, I want to respond to the listener too. Anger is one of the five stages that Elizabeth Kubler-Ross identified. You know, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance Now these are very good. It's a very good way of seeing really more of the initial reactions in a time of a loss. You get angry, you want to deny, but over time and I want the listener to know that over time things will get better.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And what we know now from the literature is that there's another way of seeing this loss experience. It's called continuing bonds. Continuing bonds can be expressed in a number of ways and this happens over time. But you might have dreams of your pet. You might dream a dream. You might create a shrine or memorial. You might actually like the cat jumping on the couch. You might sense the cat in your home or around you, in your presence. These are all what are called continuing bond expressions, or the expressions of this continuing love that you still have. Your love will never die and I know it's sometimes a fear that you'll forget your pet, but I can assure you you won't, and over time. The one of the continuing bonds that we've identified in the research that I did was called is called generativity, and I and that's why I asked you how your loss of steven affected your work, what we find almost to a person, that when we've had an intense loss like this, ultimately it comes out as a gift of love to the people we know.

Karen Duke:

And to animals.

Dr Rob Gierka:

And to their animals and to animals in general. So we want to console the listener and help them understand that in the fullness of time that love remains.

Karen Duke:

That's a lovely answer, thank you. Someone else asked where can I find sacred writings about the loss of a pet from any spirituality? But it is very thorough. It's called Animals and World Religions and it's by a religious studies scholar Lisa Kimmerer is her name and that was really valuable for us as we were preparing our own book, which we hope to publish probably next summer or fall, where we kind of have a synopsis of sacred teachings about animals, you know, in the world's mainstream faith traditions. But there's a lot of popular books out there. Common question is will I see my animal again? And so there's some really interesting works, one by Jack Wentz, one Will I See my Dog in Heaven. He's a Franciscan friar. And then there's a website I would recommend called Creature Kind, and it's it's also, I think it tends to be more Christian in focus, but it also has lots of resources um, around sacred teachings around animals, all right.

Kristiina Wilson:

Thank you for that. Then someone else wanted to know a personal question, which is do you believe that we can somehow commune with our beloved animals after they pass?

Dr Rob Gierka:

Well, having been raised Catholic, I can speak from my personal experience that there is a choir and they're constantly giving me counsel and barking and meowing and chirping to me from somewhere, and I just personally think that the spirits of our loved ones do remain. I mean, that's just my personal experience.

Kristiina Wilson:

I believe. All right, Karen. Do you have anything you want to add to that or to that?

Karen Duke:

Same same. There's just there's so much much, you know, things that happen that are just like, wow, really, what is going on here? I mean remarkable stories that it's like how are you going to explain this? You just can't, from a reason, from logic doesn't explain it. So, yeah, I think it's, it's beautiful to embrace that idea. It's a beautiful thing. You know, life doesn't end with death.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, and the last listener question was how is best to honor our pets after we lose them, and I know we've talked about that a lot already. I don't know if there's anything that you want to add.

Karen Duke:

Well, paying the love forward. Yeah, I mean, really that's what it comes down to. Our animals just give us so much love, so much such gifts that they give us, and if we can find ways to pay that love forward and spread it around the world, you know it's great to honor their spirits, their beautiful spirits, to make things better for people and for animals, you know. So, find what appeals to you. I mean, you're doing remarkable work and I know that Steve and the love and the intense connection you'd had with him is a part of that to help you continue doing this work. There's all kinds of ways, you know it may just be as simple as trying to be a more tolerant person. You know we're judgy humans. It's really hard for people not to be judgmental. Tolerant person you know we're judgy humans. It's really hard for you, for people, not to be judgmental, but you know we talk about unconditional love with our animals.

Karen Duke:

Really, it's not judgmental love. I mean really that's what they accept us, even when we're, you know, not in our best form.

Kristiina Wilson:

And they love us no matter what.

Karen Duke:

So that's a really great model. You know we think about how animals. You know how. What can we learn from our animal teachers? I like to frame it that way.

Dr Rob Gierka:

You know well, you said that. You asked me. You know how our work has changed me. I said that it has transformed my heart, and that's true for all pet owners, for pet keepers. They change us, they change our heart, and so if you want to know how best to honor them, it really springs from that transformed person you are, and it's a mystery we don't know I mean, who knows how it will play out in time, but I believe that the animal has something to say about that and if we listen, we'll know. So for you, it came out in this special way that you're able to talk to people like us. You know, but everybody's different and every experience is different. So I would just like to know what ends up happening with this listener. I would love to know the good and the lovely thing that happens in the world.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah. As a result of that love yeah, I think those are wonderful, wonderful answers. So how, if people want to contact you, if they want to work with you or other pet chaplains, how do people go about doing that?

Karen Duke:

Well, our website is um, petchaplaincom, and right now that, um really what's? There is just some information on our book series and sign up to get an email when the book series is published. Um, there's also information on there about the pet loss support group that Rob runs via Zoom. So that information is there as well and we do have. If you feel like you really need to speak with someone one-on-one, we have some graduates of our program who are willing and able to talk with you and, you know, just reach out in our contact form and we'll get back to you. You know, if you need a referral, yeah, Right, and we just really hope that.

Karen Duke:

You know, with our book series we're envisioning, you know, you don't have to be interested in the practice of veterinary chaplaincy. That's just one of the books, right, really is what we consider kind of a spiritual journey. So we really ask, you know, really engage people to reflect on their relationship with their animals and how those animals have changed their life. We look at the social experiences that we have and culturally, in contemporary Western society, we cover a lot of ground. So it's really kind of a thorough way if you really want to, you know, in forming a book study group. That's another thing that we think way, if you really want to, you know, in forming a book study group, that's another thing that we think these books will lend themselves to, because they all have questions in them asking you to think about. You know what we're offering here. So, yeah, it's sparking conversation. That's really important. The more stories we can share with each other, the better Agreed.

Kristiina Wilson:

All right. Well, I want to thank you both so much for talking with me today. I think this was so informative and really touching and helpful conversation, and I think the work you're both doing is so valuable and will help so many people and does help so many people, so I'm so grateful you took the time out of your day to speak with me so that we can get this information out to more people.

Karen Duke:

Well, thank you, christina. It's been a pleasure. It really has, and thank you for sharing your story.

Kristiina Wilson:

Of course, I'm always so happy to talk about Steve. He was the best person in the world.

Karen Duke:

I'm going to go have to find him on Instagram.

Kristiina Wilson:

Oh, you can. He's the daily Steve B on Instagram. He's easy to find. So, yeah, you can find him there. I just want to thank you guys again so much for being on the podcast, and that's it All right.

Kristiina Wilson:

Have a great day, all right, thank you. Thanks for listening, as always. If you enjoyed the podcast, please go ahead and give us a rating and or a review. We'd super appreciate it. You can find our social medias Instagram and TikTok at Hiss and Tell Podcast. For cat behavior consultations, go to catitude-adjustmentcom. Music provided by Cat Beats.

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