What if navigating the complex emotions of grief could bring you closer to your loved ones? Join us on this special episode of "Our Dead Dads" as we welcome my wife, Kim, to share her poignant journey of growing up with her father and the starkly different ways she and her sisters coped with his loss. We dive into the unexpected similarities between our dads and how their passing has shaped our lives in profound ways. Together, we emphasize the importance of open conversations about loss and trauma, and how these discussions can foster healing.

This episode also takes you through the unique story of our relationship, from our serendipitous online meeting to our whirlwind engagement and the joys and challenges we faced as newlyweds. You'll hear about our adventures adopting a kitten right after getting married and the humorous dynamics of blending our Greek heritage. We reflect on the contrasting family dynamics we grew up with and how our fathers' personalities and choices deeply influenced our lives.

Finally, we explore broader themes of grief, family dynamics, and personal growth. Listen as we recount the emotional impact of losing our fathers, navigating the often awkward and complex family relationships left behind, and breaking cycles of dysfunction through honesty and self-awareness. We also touch on lighter moments, such as answering fun, random questions about Nick's life and passions, providing a well-rounded and heartfelt episode that aims to normalize conversations around grief and loss.

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Email: kim@kimgaylordtravel.com
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Nick Gaylord: 0:00

Welcome to Our Dead Dads, the podcast where we normalize talking about grief, trauma, loss and moving forward. I'm your host, my name is Nick Gaylord and so far you've heard me tell you my story, and then I talked to my three brothers and three of my best friends as we shared stories about our dads and what it was like living with them and losing them. Today, I'm joined by my wife, kim, as she opens up about growing up with her dad, how her relationship changed with him as she became an adult, with her dad, how her relationship changed with him as she became an adult, and some of the similarities we noticed between both of our dads over the years. Kim talks about how the loss of her dad was different for her than for both of her sisters and how some losses are not always as impactful as others think they normally would be. This is yet another glimpse into the reality of how the path through grief, specifically losing a parent, is different for everyone. As an added bonus, we also share our story of how we met, how we were engaged before most people even knew we were dating, adopting a six-week-old kitten the weekend we got married, and so much more. You may have even heard her commercial on other episodes, and your ears did not deceive you. Kim's Business, which is Kim Gaylord Travel, has also become the first official sponsor of Our Dead Dads, so if you're looking for a travel agent, keep listening for the commercial to hear what services she offers and how to get in touch with her.

Nick Gaylord: 1:06

Before we get started, I would like to thank everyone for listening, for your feedback and for engaging with the show. Please follow the show's social media pages on Facebook, instagram, tiktok and Twitter and, if you haven't already, please get on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Follow the show and very important please give us a five-star rating and leave a short review of the show. Tell us what you like, what you're looking forward to and how this show has helped you or someone you know. We can't say thank you enough to everyone who has already left us a rating and review and if you haven't yet, please do it today. It takes less than a minute and it really does make a huge difference to help us continue to gain awareness and exposure in the podcast community.

Nick Gaylord: 1:41

As you know, my goal is to normalize talking about grief, loss and trauma, which are topics that are not easy for most of us to talk about, but they're also topics that everyone should be discussing more Not only discussing them, but not feeling like they're taboo topics. Time may not heal all wounds, but keeping everything bottled up inside doesn't heal any of them. Together, we are building a community for others to have a safe space to talk about their stories and their feelings, and for anyone who may not yet be ready to talk, just to listen to others and know that no one is alone in this path. That's why I say we are a community and I'm so happy to have you here. If you have a story you'd like to share, if you would like to be considered as being a guest on a future episode, get ready to submit your stories, because the website, which is ourdeaddcom, will be up and running very soon and you'll have the chance to send us your story. Please enjoy this episode and stick around afterwards when I will tell you about the next episode.

Nick Gaylord: 2:31

Our Dead Dads podcast is sponsored by Kim Gaylord Travel. If you can dream up the vacation whether a getaway for you and your other half, a family trip or a trip for a large group she will help you plan it If you've never used, or even thought about using a travel agent for your trips? You really should. Kim will help you plan everything the flights, hotels, transportation, excursions, all the places to visit and all the sites to see. You'll get a detailed itinerary of everything and if anything goes wrong during your trip, you have someone to contact.

Nick Gaylord: 2:57

Whether you're looking for a customized European vacation, a relaxing stay at an all inclusive resort, an Alaskan adventure, a Caribbean cruise, kim will work with you to make sure you have a seamless travel experience. Contact her today and plan your next trip with the peace of mind that only working with a travel agent can offer. And, as a special bonus for our listeners, mention Our Dead Dads podcast for a 10% discount on planning fees. You can find Kim Gaylord Travel on Facebook, instagram and LinkedIn, or email Kim directly. Her email address is kim at kimgaylordtravelcom.

Kim Gaylord: 3:43

You know, you don't have to play like a host with me. It doesn't hurt me. I'm just saying you know.

Nick Gaylord: 3:48

You're just saying huh yeah.

Kim Gaylord: 3:51

Yeah, am I close enough? Should I move this, or should I move me? You should be a little bit closer. Sorry, it's weird. Wait, am I putting headphones?

Nick Gaylord: 4:01

on, put your headphones on.

Kim Gaylord: 4:02

Is there a right and left?

Nick Gaylord: 4:04

No, I don't know if it really matters. Yeah, you can adjust them. They were on my big ass head to test them out. Yeah, all right, can you hear me?

Kim Gaylord: 4:14

Wait, hold on. Yeah, this is going to be weird, though. Am I supposed to hear you through there or hear you through here?

Nick Gaylord: 4:20

As long as you can hear me through the headphones.

Kim Gaylord: 4:21

You'll probably hear me through both. I hear you through both. Can you hear me through both? I can have a little bit of fun. Are we recording already?

Nick Gaylord: 4:28

Yeah, we are Rookie mistake. I should have known. That's okay. When you have your podcast then you can Never gonna happen. We're just gonna have some fun today.

Kim Gaylord: 4:40

Alright.

Nick Gaylord: 4:42

Let's jump into this Officially, even though you've been listening to me doing this and working on this for the last four months. Welcome to.

Kim Gaylord: 4:52

Our Dead Dad. Thank you, it's lovely to be here finally, finally.

Nick Gaylord: 4:57

Usually you're hearing me from your office or the living room, or wherever you are, or trying not to hear you, or trying not to hear me. I try to keep the door closed, but our four-legged child tries to get in and out and in and out.

Kim Gaylord: 5:10

And I try to be quiet, even though you'd say you can't hear me, but I don't want to be so quiet that I can hear you, so it's a weird balance, that's okay, I think we've found that balance pretty well, glad to finally be interviewing you.

Nick Gaylord: 5:26

This is something that we've not necessarily put off for a while, but we just haven't gotten around to it, and now the time has come, you know I was an easy get I knew you were you didn't have to really go too hard to find me or schedule me. Yeah, I didn't have to look too far. I knew you were a sure thing. I knew this was going to happen exactly. So here we are, the part of the world that doesn't know you. The podcasting community that is hopefully my big listening audience.

Kim Gaylord: 5:47

The Our Dead Dads Fan base Fan base. Do we have a? Is there a term for it?

Nick Gaylord: 5:52

yet we haven't come up with that yet we might have to.

Kim Gaylord: 5:54

I feel like there's something with odd, like ODD, our Dead Dads, the oddities, or the, the oddities, the odd we're going to have to work.

Nick Gaylord: 6:02

We're going to have to work. Come up with it. Yeah, yeah, obviously, anybody who's listening.

Kim Gaylord: 6:05

Yeah, If anybody has to send offer suggestions anything you're in your feedback.

Nick Gaylord: 6:11

If you come up with what we would call the listeners, I'm open to suggestions. This is our dead dad, so we've got lots to talk about. One of the many, many things that we have in common is the fact that both of our dads have passed Mine more recently. Mine about three years ago. Your dad passed in 2008, which was two years after we first met, so I did not-.

Nick Gaylord: 6:35

We both got to know each other's dads a little bit Both got to know each other's dads a little bit, even in 15 years of my dad being alive. During our relationship it was limited, contact it was limited, and it was not necessarily a bad thing that it was that way. He was a handful, even in small doses for those of us who knew him the best. So I'm just going to ask you to talk a little bit about your dad, what it was like growing up with him, with both of your parents Should.

Kim Gaylord: 7:06

I give a little background.

Nick Gaylord: 7:07

You can give as much background as you'd like. You were 33 and I was 30 when we met, so there was plenty that happened in your life with both your parents that I was not there for. So let's just yeah.

Kim Gaylord: 7:20

One of the things that we don't have in common is that my parents were married for a very long time, whereas yours were married only very briefly. So I grew up in the house with both of my parents. I was in college. It was the summer before senior year that they separated. A good way to sort of frame it is that the early years were, on the surface, great. He was a great dad. He was always present and there he loved being great dad. He was always present and there he loved being a dad. He had a lot of his own issues that, as a kid, you don't realize or recognize. There were issues with his family. There had been issues with my parents initially got together with the families not necessarily his family being too supportive of them being married, supportive of them being married. My parents met, by the way in gosh.

Kim Gaylord: 8:06

I want to say like sixth grade or eighth grade really young and there was a dance, I think and also my mom's best friend to this day, stella, was there too. So the three of them all went to school together all throughout until they graduated high school and so they started dating. I mean eighth grade, I want to say. I think there was some dance where he told her he was in love with her, he was going to marry her or something, and she thought he was crazy and ran out crying, or crying or thought he was crazy and left, or something like that. I don't remember exactly the details, but they dated on and off all throughout college and got married right after college. My dad actually didn't finish college. He ended up dropping out. There were, like I mentioned, issues with his parents not approving of them being together and my dad, you know, maybe in a trying to be spiteful or trying to be an adult, sort of said well, if you're not going to support me, then I'm not going to go to college.

Kim Gaylord: 8:54

My grandparents, probably, especially my grandfather, was very, he was very successful, he was in advertising and there were a lot of expectations. My dad was the oldest and the only son he has. He had a sister who was 10 years younger, who's also since passed, and they had a lot of expectations for him and I think it was a time and a place where there was no consideration given to whether the person was right for the expectation that was being set upon them. It was just this is what you're expected to become. And he couldn't, wouldn't, I don't know, but didn't. Ultimately he tried. He actually did go into advertising. My grandfather got him a job and he went into advertising for a couple of years after my parents were married and I think he was doing fairly well. My mom was a teacher and they always described she always describes those years as being great when they were trying to.

Kim Gaylord: 9:47

I'm the oldest, so they were trying to get pregnant with me. It took them, think, about five years, six years. So in their early 20s they were, you know, married and had a house and living on Long Island and couldn't wait to have a kid, but took advantage of the time before they did. And then, yeah, but when I was born, and then my sister followed three and a half years later, followed another five years later after that with the third.

Kim Gaylord: 10:09

The early years were pretty good, but one of the overarching parts of it was this part of my dad that just couldn't be his own man and or wouldn't? I always like to say both options, because I always think as an adult, you do have a choice. But for whatever reason, he didn't walk away from these pressures and he let them affect him in a negative way that ultimately affected his entire life, cost him his marriage, probably ultimately cost him the good relationships that he had had with his children as adults. I don't want to speak for my sisters, but we weren't very close with him after the divorce. So, yeah, but like I said, those early years, you know unlike you know some of the stuff that you and your siblings went through with your dad.

Kim Gaylord: 10:53

My dad was there and it was only as we got older. He was definitely similar to your dad, in the sense that we've always talked about this. Well, first of all, can I give a little background on this? One of the similarities we have is that both of our dads are Greek. I don't know if you've talked about it. I don't think you've talked about that.

Nick Gaylord: 11:09

Oh yeah, Well, you mentioned Papu. Yes, well, I talked about it on my dad's side, but I don't think I've covered this part yet. So yeah, go ahead.

Kim Gaylord: 11:16

So yeah, so Nick's dad was, for all intents who are familiar with the Greek community. There's, I always like to say there's two types of Greek men. There's the jovial, happy, love everybody, welcome into my family guys, and then there's the sort of stricter, more rigid, do it my way or no way kind of guys. Another sort of overarching thing I think we've talked about is this idea of their moms spoiling them, their moms just raising them up to this level of being perfect and when they're not going out of their way to cover for it and make it okay, so it looks like everything's fine. I think that's something both your Yaya and mine did throughout their lives. My father actually passed before his mother did, but right up until the day he died she was supporting him financially and he never really had that moment where he was going to step out and say I'm going to be my own man. I think he tried several times, but by then he already had a wife and three kids, or two kids at least, and financially wasn't willing to let that facade of success go. He wanted to impress always. He wanted to always come across as something more than he was, and part of that was accepting financial assistance from his parents along the way. It was also a time where we grew up where neither of the grandfathers, neither my mom's dad or my dad's dad, would have wanted my mom to have to work, so there was that added pressure. Once I was born, she stopped teaching for about 15 years while she was raising us, and that was an expectation, I think, from both sides, but it was just the way it was. We're in that time and that place in our world Anyway.

Kim Gaylord: 13:00

So as I started to get older, some of my dad's positions just started to not resonate with me. I started to sort of see through the bullshit, for lack of a better way of saying it. And you know, I was probably 12, 13. We had moved to a new town and I was cranky about that. I didn't like having to leave my friends and all of that. And in a large part that move was because of him, because of what he wanted, and I was, you know, early preteen not the best time in a young girl's life to be respectful and happy with her parents decisions and situation. So, and as the oldest, I was also the first to go through it. So I was starting to just, you know, he would say things and I would just be like what? Like that's ridiculous, that doesn't make sense, and my mom had always taken the approach of trying to just placate him and trying to minimize the negative stuff. That was just the way she dealt with it during those years and I then therefore as the child didn't know that she was equally as frustrated, perhaps because she was going along with it. It made me feel like I was the crazy one, like something wrong is wrong with me.

Kim Gaylord: 14:10

As the middle sister, jessica, got a little bit older, then I had a little bit of a partner in crime with that. I remember the dinner table we would kick each other under the table when he would say something to sort of like prevent ourselves from you know. But yeah, I mean, I remember high school years when they were still together, me and him fighting a lot. He wanted me to still have the same close relationship that I'd had when I was a kid and I wanted to be doing stuff with my friends and being an adult, and he didn't like that.

Kim Gaylord: 14:37

I was starting to hear different political opinions. I will interrupt this broadcast to mention that one of the things our dad's having common is the racism, the bigotry, that lack of tolerance for anybody who wasn't them. So it's definitely been an overarching part of our mine and Nick's relationship all these years to sort of know about that, and by the time I went to college it was sort of a relief to just get out of the house. I used to not necessarily look forward to coming home. It was also pre like technology. So when I left for college there weren't really even I mean we didn't even have a computer, and so I didn't get to talk to them all that much. It wasn't like I was texting with anybody or messaging, so I was pretty much on my own. I would call home probably once a week and say a quick hello to all four of them, and on the weekends when the rates were a lot cheaper.

Kim Gaylord: 15:25

Yeah, and my mom would like time it. My sister say like to make sure they only had a minute each or something. So you know that was unfortunate because I think it led to me not being as close to my sisters during those years. Victoria, who's the youngest, is almost nine years younger than me, so she and I certainly were until we became adults waves apart in terms of just. You know, ironically we're very similar and close now, but Jess and I were definitely very much then when she went to college. Then we started being able to talk more when in our early 20s and stuff like that, we were more, both like adults and stuff. But there was definitely a gap.

Kim Gaylord: 15:57

And then, of course, my parents got divorced. By that point Vic was the only one still at home, so she had to go through you know the divorce being there, yeah, having to go see my dad, and you know he moved out of the house. Actually, I guess they sold the house, come to think of it. So they both eventually moved out of the house, but she was living with my mom, but she would have to go see him, whereas I was, by that point I had graduated college and I was living in California, so I wasn't you know around as much. When I would come home, maybe we would all have a dinner together with my dad. We would meet him out at a restaurant somewhere and have an awkward dinner with him, but that's kind of the way it went. And he really went downhill after the divorce. He was drinking a lot. He never really was very successful with jobs or careers. Sorry, I just burped. Are they all going to know that?

Nick Gaylord: 16:44

Maybe I mean I did just mention. You heard the interview with the brothers. I did Without a huge belch at some point.

Kim Gaylord: 16:50

I'm surprised. It wasn't worse, to be honest with you. So yeah, so that's kind of how it went. And then I ended up moving back to Long Island in 2000. You know, would see him occasionally but it wasn't good. There were a few things that came up. I had the same last name I was the only person at that point who had the same last name as he did and I was getting phone calls. He had debt and they would find me and say we're trying to find him and we can't. So just, it just wasn't good at that point and we sort of chose to.

Kim Gaylord: 17:18

I sort of chose to see him as little as possible during those later years, but certainly never took the extreme of. It was never yelling, fighting, screaming, it was always just. I accept that he is who he is, but he's not somebody who I need to be a big part of my life. I'm very lucky to be super close with my mom and my sisters that their divorce ironically brought us together, the four of us. I've always said to my mom from the time she left him to this day had she not left him, I probably wouldn't have come back from California and we probably wouldn't be as close as we were, because I just I could handle him more than I could handle the way he was in their relationship.

Kim Gaylord: 17:59

I didn't like how he treated her at all. When she went back to teaching full time she was now taking care of the house and the kids and bringing in the majority of the money and he was still treating her horribly and that just didn't work for me at all. So her having the strength to finally, after all those years, do that, I'm sure, was incredibly difficult and she was so brave to do it. But by then I think she realized that financially she'd be okay and be okay. And as hard as it was for her I don't want to speak for her, but I think it was probably one of the best things that she ever did.

Nick Gaylord: 18:32

When she went back to teaching, was it because of the financial situation or was it something that she kind of knew that she wanted to do? Anyway, she took the time off to raise you girls. Yeah, and I think you said it was like 13 or 14 years before she went back.

Kim Gaylord: 18:49

So we had moved out to Southampton. When I was starting eighth grade, vic went into nursery school and I think it was when she was in kindergarten or maybe even first grade that my mom went back full time. Prior to that she had been subbing a little bit but to answer your question, no-transcript stuff on. You know he would. He would come home and give her money from work but then charge other things to you know. So she had to call my grandfather and say this is a horrible situation, I don't know what to do. And so you know, I think she was just starting to see the life ahead of her at that point and must have just realized this isn't what she wants for herself or for her daughters.

Kim Gaylord: 19:50

Again, victoria was only, she was 12. I mean, she was young, and my mom was like I can't go through this with another daughter and just the three of us home in the house now and them fighting like I can only imagine. So yeah, to her credit, she did, she had enough and she was done. Can only imagine. So yeah, to her credit, she did, she had enough and she was done. Yeah, it was one bad day. It's not really my story to tell, but just briefly. She had it. She snapped. Ironically, it was a day where her parents were at our house and I mentioned Stella earlier, her best friend was there as well and she just sort of looked at them and said I don't think I can do this anymore. And that was the beginning.

Nick Gaylord: 20:21

So you mentioned. As an adult, especially when you came back from New York, you were not very close with your dad. You didn't maintain much of a relationship with him. What do you think he could have done even at that point to change?

Kim Gaylord: 20:36

things. Oh gosh, I mean, all he ever needed to do was take responsibility for his own actions, for who he was, for the man he was, and I think it would have changed everything. This wasn't an innately horrible person. He had a huge heart. He loved my mother so much, spoiled her, doted on her, probably to the point of fall. But you know, when you don't respect yourself, when you don't know who you are, I just don't think you can really truly love other people the way that they need to be loved. And I think he wanted us, his daughters, to be like a reflection of him. And when we weren't going to be politically like just all the things, all the things, it just deteriorated. And you know, sad thing is that I just lost respect for him. I mean, it's kind of hard to respect somebody who's late 40s, early 50s, and it's just hard to respect somebody at that point. And, by the way, who was being dishonest about it, who wasn't like it was being hidden from us? Who was being dishonest about it? Who wasn't like it was being hidden from us? A great example is when I was getting ready to apply for college. So we were living in a very nice house in South Hampton on Long Island. For most people that's considered like the Hamptons, but for us it was where we lived year round. It was not that fancy lifestyle, but we had a very nice house that they were lucky enough to not have a mortgage on because of real estate. The price of our previous house had increased while they lived there enough that they were able to build this house and buy the land without having a mortgage on it.

Kim Gaylord: 22:11

When I got ready to start applying for colleges and stuff, we never really talked about money. It wasn't a household where we discussed finances or things like that. But I always had a job. In high school I always made my own money. I definitely was aware by that point that maybe the cash flow was not there, but I had no idea that something like college would be a problem. It was just an assumption I made based on things I had been led to believe my whole life about our family's financial stability or status or whatever you want to call it. And I remember they had a guy whose job it was to like basically walk families through the process of applying to college, of paying for it, financing it all that come to the house one day and basically, I found out that I couldn't go to any school I wanted, that I was looking at like a state college situation or taking out my own loans, which I think instantly I didn't like the idea of, and I just remember being shocked.

Kim Gaylord: 23:09

I just remember feeling like how is this possible? And that's probably like when the reality started to set in and, by the way, this is not a pity party, we were way better off. Just the fact that my parents could afford to pay for my state college education is impressive. I ended up going to a New York state school and went with kids who, when tuition went up $100 a semester, couldn't afford it. So I was exceedingly lucky. It was just that, in comparison to what I had been led to believe, it was that so yeah, so that's sort of like a good example of it, where you know he led us to believe one thing when the other thing was the reality and then wouldn't talk about it or discuss it or own up to it. Always an excuse, always someone else's fault. Another overriding theme that Nick and I share it's always Our dads, not us.

Kim Gaylord: 23:56

Our dads. But yeah, it was always something. It was always someone else's fault and never his, and I just I don't know. I guess I've always had a pretty strong sense of what I consider to be sort of right and wrong, or a strong sense of what I want to be around, and I just didn't want to be around it anymore. It just wasn't. It was going to weigh me down. It was a cycle that needed to get broken.

Nick Gaylord: 24:20

When we met in February of 2006, it was, I don't know. I want to say it was probably three or four months in, before the first time that I met your dad. I don't remember where we went, but the three of us met at a restaurant. We had dinner together. It was in Sac Harbor. I remember. That's right, it was Sac Harbor, and he was there waiting for us when we got there and I mean he was perfectly nice to me, but I could tell right away that this was not a close relationship.

Kim Gaylord: 24:50

Yeah, that meeting was more obligatory because by that well, okay, at some point we'll pause and tell our story, I guess, but by that point we were already. We knew we were going to be together. So I think I thought I had to introduce him to you. My remembrance of it was that he had gotten there ahead of us, even though we weren't late. He was already seated at the table, he already had a drink and, if I had to guess, it was probably not his first and that was probably to calm him down or make him feel more comfortable meeting you. Yeah, I mean he Because I'm such a handful, I don't know how to describe that part of him you were probably the first man Well, you're definitely the first man I had ever introduced him to.

Kim Gaylord: 25:28

He obviously knew, like my high school boyfriend and stuff, but he was always that trying to impress, trying to be the cool guy, trying to, and it just never landed. And so and I he knew it I think he was pretty insecure but trying not to be and just couldn't really. And you're this, you know, big guy, you're so comfortable around everybody, you make everybody feel at ease, and I think that helped in that moment. I can't remember, but my gut is that you just made everything feel comfortable and you were perfectly nice and answered his questions and whatever.

Nick Gaylord: 25:59

I have very little memory of that dinner other than approaching the table and seeing him sitting there drinking and it was definitely not, I guess, how I would have ever thought that this was going to be how I'd meet the father of the woman that I would one day marry.

Kim Gaylord: 26:17

But yeah, and that's another thing. I mean me meaning your dad was a similar nervousness in terms of, you know, when you know that the person doesn't have a good relationship with the parent as opposed to us meeting both of our each other's mothers couldn't have been more different, I mean. I mean yeah, I mean Nick walked into my mom's house for the first time. She opened the door and he swept her up into a big hug and she started screaming my mother's about I don't know a third of Nick's size, and the first time I met your mom same thing it was at her house. She made us dinner. It couldn't have been more lovely. So, yeah, complete opposites. But I think at that point, you and I, when we met each other, those dads were already very protective of each other and knew enough of the negatives of the relationship that it was a fine balance. Neither one of us was going to rock the boat and call the other one's dad out, no, no. But we weren't ever going to be besties either.

Kim Gaylord: 27:04

I think, as the years went on with your dad, there were a few times where I pushed a little bit for you to see the better sides of him. I think in the early years you were still a little bit more bitter, coming off of some not so great years with him. And I think as I got to know him a little bit better and I got to know your mom a little bit better on both sides of the family, the other siblings, cousins I started to piece together a little bit some of your like, where some of your stuff comes from, and I think what I've always said is well, both of our mothers are amazing and wonderful and both of our hearts come from our dads. Our moms have had to be tough and our dads in a lot of ways didn't, because they always had their moms there to take care of their wives. But and their wives, yeah, but they both, I think, had this goodness in them that they struggled to get out, that they probably weren't encouraged in any way to show.

Kim Gaylord: 28:01

It was not what was expected of men of that time. They were supposed to be tough and you know whatever. And my dad knew how to do. It was not what was expected of men of that time. They were supposed to be tough and whatever, and my dad knew how to do it. Like I said with kids when we were younger, he didn't know how to do it with adults.

Nick Gaylord: 28:12

And I think it's a good thing that at least your dad knew how to do that with kids, with the three of you. It is definitely something that my dad struggled with through his entire life with all of his children. He just he didn't have the words. He didn't have the words. Well, and I think for your dad also.

Kim Gaylord: 28:30

it was, I think he was in a less happy situation. I mean, you know, when I think of those early years we were talking after I listened to the episode with your brothers how I hadn't ever really thought that much about those years when you were like in college but still living at home, you know a lot. And then when the when you were a teenager, driving and the boys were five, six, whatever they were I hadn't really thought a lot of about those years but what it was like having a big brother who was that much older than you and stuff. I just think your dad was not able to be a part of it.

Kim Gaylord: 29:02

One of the things both of our dads had in common was they just couldn't get their act together with their careers, with work. They constantly were getting into problems with bosses. Neither one liked to be told what to do. I mean, my father went through at one point I think my mother counted it was like 20 some odd different jobs or careers, because he just he couldn't ever let anybody tell him what to do and just do it. He always had to be right, he always had to have his way. And I think your dad was very similar. He was.

Nick Gaylord: 29:30

My dad was in the same career for a long time, for, I don't know, 35 years.

Kim Gaylord: 29:34

Right, but from job to job Right.

Nick Gaylord: 29:37

Yeah, he went from job to job, but he was always an x-ray tech. That's what he went to college for. But the big difference between our dads there, rather than jumping from job to job or career to career, my dad stayed as an x-ray tech but he ended up working at pretty much every hospital in Suffolk County that's the eastern half of Long Island, for those of you who want to check it out on a map and a couple in Nassau County, which was closer to New York City, because he frequently, as you said, if he wanted to just have a bad day, if he wanted to tell his boss to fuck off, he would tell his boss to fuck off and it cost him jobs, he'd get fired. He had to quit.

Kim Gaylord: 30:15

I think one thing that was different about our dads is your dad, I think, had like a for lack of a better word like a laziness to him. He was perfectly content to just do the job, stay at the job until somebody pissed him off and then he would lose it. My dad it was more. He always thought he was right, he always thought like he could do better. So he was constantly trying to tell people how to do things, what to do, which I think also as a teenager I didn't appreciate. So that was probably part of but yeah, I mean I think with his jobs.

Kim Gaylord: 30:45

I mean I know at one point he was, he had his own business where he was making signs like vinyl, printed like signs, and a woman who I was working for at the time needed a sign. So they got in touch and I remember her saying to me years later, like anything I wanted to do, he had to tell me I had to do it different. And I was like it was my this is her talking, it's my sign, like I want it the way I want it, just do it. And he wouldn't. And I was just like yep, that's him Even as something like that. He just had to be contrary, he had to. Yeah.

Nick Gaylord: 31:13

He had to be the smartest person in the room. He had to always be in charge.

Kim Gaylord: 31:16

He couldn't just took the easy way out. I think a lot of the times with work and then with you guys.

Nick Gaylord: 31:28

Especially with us. We've talked and when I talked to my brothers you and I have talked about this growing up as Joseph and Michael the two younger boys were growing up, he wanted to be involved as little as he possibly could. Jack and I played a larger role in their upbringing. Obviously, rosemary did 95% of the work and we were thrilled to do it. We were so happy to be big brothers to both of them.

Kim Gaylord: 31:55

To Helene yeah, he got really lucky that the four of you as boys, but then also with Helene that you guys were there as much as I mean, because you could have done what I did, which was leave the state and move away, and then he wouldn't have had you, right, it wasn't until, I mean, you were gone for a couple years, but you were still in New York State, right? Same with Jack when he went to college and then, of course, once he joined the army, it was different, but right, you know, you were always there, you've always been there. That's the thing I always remember when you and I got together. So by the time nick and I met and started dating his dad and his and rosemary, the kid's mom, had divorced already, right, so I only ever knew rosemary in that house that they all grew up in with the kids, and that was your stepmom and that was your brothers and sisters and that was this other family. So we would be with them on certain occasions and holidays. We would be with your mom on certain occasions and certain holidays and then we would go see your dad.

Kim Gaylord: 32:52

Yeah, and that was, that was it, and usually when we went to see your dad, it was just us, or maybe one, michael, was there for the early years when he was living there right. We would go over on at some point for christmas. We would usually go over in the morning, right, and helene would come and we you would make pancakes and we would have breakfast and stuff, but pancakes or, yeah, biscuits and gravy or whatever, whatever it was. But I stopped really going a lot other than that, I think because it just wasn't comfortable. No, and you would. You were great, you were always all I will say this about all of the boys when you were available, you would always be there. Joe and Mike were always there with him and for as long as we were on Long Island, so were you.

Kim Gaylord: 33:33

Obviously it changed when we left Long Island, but you know, you always still did everything you had to do. I can't say that about myself. I didn't yeah, I didn't step into that role as the oldest when my parents separated. I think it's different, you know again, because I was already in a bad place with him when that happened. So there was no way I was gonna pick up where my mother left off. That just wasn't. And plus, he had his mom doing it. His mother was financially supporting him and taking care of him after the wall always, but after the divorce yeah yeah, it was definitely different for both of us.

Nick Gaylord: 34:05

I mean, my parents divorced when I was two. You had your dad there for your entire childhood. Yeah, so the situations were very different.

Kim Gaylord: 34:15

I mean my dad yeah, it's amazing how many similarities and threads there are, and I think it's always been something we've you, you know been able to relate to each other on. It's just one of those.

Nick Gaylord: 34:26

I mean my dad was able to irritate me enough. But because my parents had been long divorced, I was able to, by choice, deal with it in small doses at a time where.

Kim Gaylord: 34:37

Well, and I think also when you got older, you were able to just remove yourself from the situation, whereas all I could do was go into another room. He was still there. He was still in the house parenting me. I still had to follow his rules and do what he said.

Nick Gaylord: 34:50

So one funny little side story that I'm going to add in here, which you and I had talked about this previously. You want to tell the story about when we met and the last names.

Kim Gaylord: 35:00

Yes. So how we met? Have you talked about that at all yet? Not really, I don't think I mentioned that actually. So, like Nick said, I was 33 and you were 30. I'm three years older and I had been living back on Long Island for gosh what, like six years. East end of Long Island in the winter for those of you who don't know it is very empty. The Hamptons you're like the Hamptons in the summer. The rest of the time it's very empty and there are not a lot of eligible 30 somethings.

Kim Gaylord: 35:29

My dating life was non-existent and this online dating thing had started taking a hold and it just is not me. Let's just say that it is not my jam, it's not my vibe. I'm more of a one on one, face to face, kind of a person. But I wasn't going to work and meet anybody at work. I was working at a small business that only had a few employees they were all women and Nick, on the other hand, is Mr Social, mr Out and About. He had, you know, three jobs and was going to school and doing a lot, so he was meeting people constantly. Yet he was the one who was doing the online dating and I was hesitant. So we were both on matchcom. But the difference was Nick had been doing it for a while and was ready to stop. He was ready to take a break. It wasn't working. He was, you know, meeting girls and it not working out, is that?

Nick Gaylord: 36:17

Yeah, I had a couple of situations that just did not go well. I mean I not entirely. I mean I'd done online dating for years and there were some that you know worked out pretty well for the time. But yeah, right before we met there was someone that I had dated briefly, I don't know like a month or so, and it I don't remember what happened, but during one phone call we were talking about something and she just flipped shit on me and she went crazy about something. At first I thought you hung up and changed your phone number.

Kim Gaylord: 36:45

Was it like that?

Nick Gaylord: 36:46

no, no, not entirely that, but I mean I thought she was joking and when I realized she was serious, I'm like yeah, you need to tell the fuck out. Like, what are you going crazy about?

Kim Gaylord: 36:55

and the relationship basically ended that day and because I remember you saying to me that you, you had been about to cancel, yeah, and you were like, let me just like they offered you like a incentive. So you did like you're like fine, six more months.

Nick Gaylord: 37:09

Yeah, really absurdly cheap incentive to stay on. So I did, I kept on going.

Kim Gaylord: 37:15

And then my side of it is that I finally agreed not agreed. Nobody was pressuring me, but I finally decided to do this. I tried to do eHarmony because I thought it was more for like people who wanted like a serious relationship. But the questionnaire was so long I was like this is ridiculous. It's like I, if I have to give this much information like I, can't like.

Nick Gaylord: 37:36

I don't think we signed that and answered that many questions when we bought.

Kim Gaylord: 37:39

It was insane, it was it was so insane so I did match no, 2005. I said, well, I was probably doing it in 2005. Yeah, but let's say it's fall of 2005. Then I'm starting to think about this. The only computer I have is at work. Luckily I was able to use it.

Kim Gaylord: 37:55

But I'm not computer savvy at all at this point. I mean, this is just not. This is pre that time and in my life I'd only ever really had to use a computer for work at that time and in my life I'd only ever really had to use a computer for work at that time. So I I fill out the profile, I submit it, I get it all up, whatever, and then I have to submit a picture. But I have no idea. Like there were no pictures on your phone at that time, there was nothing. So I didn't have whatever. I needed to do it from this laptop that we had at work. So my sister was going to do it, so I gave her my login and she, from her computer at home, was going to do it for me. But I remember if there was technical delays or something. But any case, my profile ended up going up without a picture.

Kim Gaylord: 38:34

The first day it was up, I got two what were they? Like winks or blank, not like like something from two guys. One was, if I had to guess, that fairly typical guy who kind of just likes and winks at every girl in his path and waits to see what happens, which, again, I didn't have a photo up, so nobody can blame the man, but nobody else is even responding. The other one was Nick, and he not only liked it but he wrote a message. So I wrote back and said that he gets credit for you know, putting sending a message to the girl who didn't have a picture up, and we just started talking from there.

Kim Gaylord: 39:12

What's also interesting about it is because I am three years older and at the time we were living about 45 minutes apart from each other. So because of the way the ages work and the distances work when you set your settings, we came really close to missing each other altogether, because I almost didn't go younger, like I almost said my age or higher, but I think it was like 30 to 35 was the thing. So since I was 33, I decided to do that one versus 35 and up. So I got you and you?

Nick Gaylord: 39:39

I almost didn't. Actually, I had previously had it as younger. I think I had it set as, but after the crazy girl you were like maybe an older woman. Yeah, maybe an older woman. I think I had it set as like 27 to 30. Something like that, yeah 25 to 30 maybe 25 to 30 probably, and I decided to go. I think I did like 25 to 35.

Kim Gaylord: 39:58

And I think only because of where I was living and how. I think when I started, when I set the miles at like I don't know 15 or 20 from I think, like three guys popped up like there was nobody on, so I had to extend it to get volume and so anyway, otherwise we would have missed each other. Basically, so we start talking, you know you message through the platform and pretty quickly we exchanged. Nick was like like do you want to talk outside of? So do we exchange emails or email at first? The first email yeah, first we were emailing outside of match, yeah, and then he, I guess, did you ask for my phone number? Yeah, we exchanged phone numbers and then our first. So we set a date, a quote, a quote, unquote date for our first phone call. Yeah, I remember being really nervous.

Nick Gaylord: 40:47

Yeah, you said you were really nervous and of course we ended up being on the phone for, I think, three and a half hours.

Kim Gaylord: 40:52

I think we were on the phone for three and a half hours.

Nick Gaylord: 40:54

It was at night like after work, right, and then the second night we're on the phone for I think five hours it was-.

Kim Gaylord: 40:59

Yeah, the next day, but I think it was like a couple of days, because the next day I went into the city right A couple of days later. Anyway, so long story short, our first babe. Let's see if I can get the dates right, okay. Okay, our first email was on January 20, no January 19th, is that?

Kim Gaylord: 41:17

right 17th, 17th oh, I'm horrible, I'm good at the later dates. Okay, january 17th. Our first phone call was January 20. 30th, 30th, okay. And once we started talking, we were talking a lot but Nick was wanting to go kind of slow, he had these bad experiences or whatever, and I wasn't looking to like get married right away. But I just wanted to meet because I felt like if we didn't have that spark, what was the point? So at a certain point I oh I remember we were, we were talking, and you told me you'd had a dream about me. Yeah, and I just I remember I was, it was at night and I was lying in bed and I sat up and I turned my light on and I was like listen, you can't tell me you're having a dream about me and not want to at least take me for a cup of coffee?

Nick Gaylord: 42:02

so he was like I didn't drink coffee yeah, cup of coffee.

Kim Gaylord: 42:06

So he was like I didn't drink coffee. Yeah, exactly. So at that point he was like, well, I was planning on seeing if you wanted to go out on Friday night or Saturday, whatever. So we did yes, and so our first date was February 10th. Our second date was February 14th, on Valentine's day. Our first date started with a kiss, like right away the second, we saw each other, we kissed, then we god, people are gonna hate us. We are so disgusting, god sluts. Um, we. Our second date was on valentine's day. We he brought me beautiful verses and we exchanged cards. And that was the night we really truly like talked about like a lot of stuff. And by that end of the night and what? Oh, and puppy, yeah, he gave me a puppy, stuffed animal that we still have. And by the end of that night it was like yeah, we love each other, like this is it? And then, 15 days later, february 25th, is that good math?

Kim Gaylord: 42:59

15 days after the first date. After the first date sorry, 15 days after the first date. After the first date sorry, 15 days after the first date. After having met my mom and my youngest sister, the four of us had dinner. That was when he picked up my mom and hugged her to death. There's a little bit of discrepancy about this, but my memory is that it was after that we were back at my apartment and lying on the bed and he asked me to marry him and we just laughed our asses off.

Nick Gaylord: 43:24

Did not have a ring. It wasn't planned.

Kim Gaylord: 43:27

It was just I know I want to marry you, I know I want to spend the rest of my life with you, and I was like, yep, I mean, it was just that easy. It was just that simple.

Nick Gaylord: 43:35

I also remember the next day when you were working. It was I don't know if there was a single customer that day a.

Kim Gaylord: 43:41

Sunday I think it was a Sunday.

Nick Gaylord: 43:46

Yeah, single customer that day. I think it was a Sunday in February in Southampton. Yeah, the store was so slow. I mean there were a couple of customers. You were hanging out with me at the store right I was hanging out with you at the store, and I was there all day, and I remember.

Kim Gaylord: 43:54

By the way, this is 18 years ago for those who are not doing math, so you can understand our memory being a little bit. This is February 26th 2006.

Nick Gaylord: 44:04

We were First of all just laughing at what fucking idiots we were like, really, 15 days and we're going to get married. But when you know, you know.

Kim Gaylord: 44:13

And we were older. We were older. Yeah, neither one of us. We both knew we wanted to be married. We both knew we wanted a committed relationship.

Nick Gaylord: 44:20

We were very similar in terms of what we had both been through all of the shit in life and we both knew that when we met the right person, we were ready. And and we both knew that when we met the right person, we were ready. And I remember that day we jokingly said, well, if we're going to do this, then maybe we should make out an invite list. And I still remember and of course this is part of my numbers brain we wrote out everybody that we could think of at the time and both of our lists ended up coming up at 59.

Kim Gaylord: 44:45

So weird. I do not remember that for the record, but I'm not surprised. Yes, and we just had a lot of fun with that. So is it? Yes? Now what's the other thing that's interesting and we should probably get back to the dad topic at some point here but is that nobody knew? I mean, like our moms and our siblings, I mean, you probably hadn't even told Jack yet, let alone the kids. So his mom knew, my mom knew, my sisters knew, but now we're engaged and it's like people don't even know we're dating. People don't even know the other one exists. So we decided to not tell anybody. We were like, let's just not be dumb, let's you know.

Kim Gaylord: 45:17

We kind of kept it a secret just between the two of us for a good long while, even from our moms and everybody. We started to introduce each other to each other's friends. I probably met the kids in Rosemary, so it sort of progressed. It did sort of slowly from there, Although, are we going to tell? Sure, Due to circumstances, our original plan had been to wait and get married following year fall of 2007. I, at the time Nick and I met, was planning on quitting my job and going to culinary school, and I had planned to move closer to New York City, which is where I was going to go to school. I'd been saving up and whatever, so Nick and I ended up moving in together at that point so I could go to school. He was still working.

Nick Gaylord: 45:58

Well, no, we moved in in the fall of 2006.

Kim Gaylord: 46:01

Right. But I'm saying our plan originally had been, I think, right, and then right, because I was starting school like in September, so we were going to move in right before that started. And we did, but in the interim because I was quitting my job, I wasn't going to have health insurance and I ended up having to have surgery and Nick was like we should just get married so you can come on my insurance, that way you don't have to worry about it, and I- Well, the Cobra at the time was very expensive.

Nick Gaylord: 46:24

I mean, I think it was like $650 a month for Cobra or it's like $120. Right.

Kim Gaylord: 46:30

And I wasn't supposed to be working when that was right. So I didn't want to get married till after the surgery. Right, I had the surgery on June 8th, and the last day I could stay on my boss's insurance was June 30th, the end of that month, and so we got married on June 30th.

Nick Gaylord: 46:49

We got married on June 30th it was a Friday. We went to the town hall, or village hall, village hall.

Kim Gaylord: 46:55

In.

Nick Gaylord: 46:55

Patchogue and at the time, the only people who knew were our moms and, well, both of your sisters, but only Jack. Yeah, he, you know, the next oldest.

Kim Gaylord: 47:06

It was more complicated to tell the rest of them, just because of your dad and the divorce, and it just was complicated. So we ended up, although I think by then your dad I mean everybody knew by that that we were, or at least your dad definitely knew by then.

Nick Gaylord: 47:19

Well, he knew that we were engaged, yeah, because, well, you got the ring, uh, like a week after the surgery, right, so it was. It was two weeks before we got married, that's when I had the ring to give you, but we were still I was recovering, recovering, yeah, but we didn't want to tell the whole general world that we were getting married because we wanted it to be special when it happened. We were planning on doing the full wedding, yeah, and we didn't want it to-.

Kim Gaylord: 47:43

And I wanted to enjoy that year of being engaged and doing all of the things and telling people and just wearing my engagement ring and all that. So we really did keep it to ourselves. It was years before we really started sharing. In fact, I'm sure there'll be some people who listen to this that don't actually even know that we actually got married on June 30th, although I think we've started to put it out there. So then our second marriage wedding, which so we call the first one we got married and the second one was our wedding. That was on September 22, 2007.

Kim Gaylord: 48:12

Yes, so a little bit more than a year later, and at a certain point when you have anniversaries, you start wanting to get credit for that extra year. I think right around 10 is when it happened. I think so, yeah, is when we started really. I mean, we had told probably closer people at that point, but right around then is when we started saying it and now we're pretty open about it. I don't think anybody was overly offended that they know during that first little bit of time.

Nick Gaylord: 48:39

One funny thing regarding getting married and the conversation of getting married early on was when you asked me what my last name was.

Kim Gaylord: 48:42

Oh no, this goes back to match Sorry, not getting married. So one of the things with matchcom is in your profile is it says what your heritage is, and so when I saw that Nick was Greek, I was not exactly thrilled by that information. So you don't get the person's last name. So we hadn't seen each other's last names. Most of you would know that Greek names tend to have I mean Greeks tend to have long last names with an S. I mean Greeks tend to have long last names with an S.

Kim Gaylord: 49:09

I had one at my maiden name and I used to joke that my only qualifications for getting married was to marry somebody whose last name was like Smith or Brown or something really easy to spell. And then there's Nick, whose last name is Gaylord not Greek, but it's because his grandfather changed it to make it more like americanized. So his actual greek last name is jallarakos, right? So when it when I the greek thing came up in conversation that we were both greek, obviously, so I was like dreading finding out what his last name was, which is so ridiculous. By the way, this was like our third email, and I'm already thinking about marrying this guy and having to take his name or keep my own, and he's worried about telling me about Gaylord because of course that had been a sort of-.

Nick Gaylord: 49:56

Well, all the shit that I dealt with growing up with that name. I joke that three things that I dealt with the most were the last name of Gaylord, being the fat kid and having a giant head, which thank you, michael and Joseph, for pointing that out many times. Oh, whatever, it would have come up anyway, it's come up plenty.

Kim Gaylord: 50:11

It always comes up. Well, your photos out there for the world, yeah Well, I love your big head.

Nick Gaylord: 50:17

Yes, I know, Luckily, you know my head and my body go to well, go well together, but it's still. It's not like. You're out of proportion at all Anyway, so yeah.

Kim Gaylord: 50:37

So that was kind of the irony that we always joke about that, anyway, so yeah. So that was kind of the irony that we always joke about that. Like he was nervous to tell me about Gaylord and I was probably the only girl in the world who was relieved that it was Gaylord instead of Gia they needed to have, if I was going to you know, quote unquote saddle my kids with that name. I needed to have it too, but no, I love it, I have no problem with it, absolutely. You get a little defensive sometimes and I'm just like, yep, gaylord, love it, I have no problem with it. So, yeah, so that was. That's our little story in a nutshell in terms of how we met and what bonded us, that and your love. The other thing is I said I was going to culinary school.

Kim Gaylord: 51:13

Nick was not what you would describe at the time as a very adventurous eater. His favorite food was chicken. Yes, probably still is. But when I tried to find out what kind of chicken, he just said chicken. Any chicken doesn't matter. Chicken, all the chicken, all the chickens. So I was like, well, you know, I'm going to culinary school, so you're going to have to be my guinea pig? Yeah, so we quickly decided that we would have a try it rule. You have to try it once and if you don't like it, I won't. And now he's probably not probably definitely a bigger food snob than I am. Yes, found out he loves food. Yes, all kinds of food, really good food, and he eats gosh almost everything I make.

Nick Gaylord: 51:52

Yeah, there are very few things that I'm not a fan of. We were talking early this morning about beets.

Kim Gaylord: 51:59

Oh, yeah, he doesn't like beets.

Nick Gaylord: 52:00

Beets are disgusting and for everybody who loves beets, good for you. I hate beets.

Kim Gaylord: 52:05

I love beets, yeah, so occasionally we'll have a his night and her night, but to eat the things that the other doesn't like. But right, for the most part he's been great. No, I'm not a. I'm not a chef anymore, but I still cook for him and you've got to agree, you're a chef until the day. Well, I don't know, I don't think I was ever really a chef, but that's another story. Yeah, you were a chef anywho. Anywho, all right.

Nick Gaylord: 52:25

So next dads? What's Getting back to our dads? I got to keep this thing on track. Yes, we can get derailed very quickly. So we got married in 2007, 2008. We're getting ready to buy our first house and your dad ends up in the hospital and passed away a week later had the funeral. Talk about what that was like.

Kim Gaylord: 52:53

So, look, this podcast is about grief and I feel a little bit like a hypocrite because I well, I shouldn't say that there's all different ways to grief, right, I did not have, and have not ever had since, a traditional path of grief. With my dad's passing. I don't know how much of that is just my personality, how much of it is the where our relationship was at the time. I mostly just felt sad for him. I mostly just felt so sorry for the life he could have had and just blew it. My mom always says that he blew it. He had an opportunity to have everything anybody could ever want and he just couldn't get it together. And there were reasons for it. I'm not going to say that there weren't, but, like I said earlier, at a certain point you stand up and you say I'm a husband and a father and I have to take responsibility for my own shit and get it together. And he just wasn't able to do it. In the later years he was drinking a lot. To my knowledge, he never stopped or sort of got help or assistance for it. I wasn't around him enough to know if he was a full-blown alcoholic, but it was definitely it seemed like it was. It seemed likely His death was related to drinking, let's just say, and so yeah, I mean you just, you go through that, those motions in those days during the he was in the hospital for about a week and it was really messy dealing with his family who we weren't close with.

Kim Gaylord: 54:25

The other thing my father did was he, I would say, misrepresented to his family his relationship with us after the divorce. He made it seem like we had chosen my mom and we weren't in touch with him and he kind of turned us into the enemy with them. So during that time it was very awkward having to deal with his mother and his sister, but we hadn't been close for years anyway. So you know it was what it was. Yeah, I mean, his mother took care of all the arrangements because she was the one in charge financially. He didn't have anything that was in his own name. We, my sisters and I didn't, you know, inherit anything from him. She just took it all back. The house he was living in was in her name, the car, and we just got through it and life went on. You know it was. It was sad. I guess it was sad mostly in that it had as little impact on our lives as possible.

Nick Gaylord: 55:18

Yeah.

Kim Gaylord: 55:19

Yeah, I mean I'm glad you got to meet him. But I was going to say, oh, this is horrible to say. I was going to say, but I wish you had gotten to meet my grandfather, instead my mom's dad instead of him, almost that's. Or I was gonna say, but I wish you had gotten to meet my grandfather instead my mom's dad instead of him. Almost that's. Or I shouldn't say instead of, but like that would have meant more to me. You having gotten to meet my grandpa, who was he, was everything had you got, had had you known him, it would have stayed with me the rest of my life, for him to you. My dad, having gotten to meet you, was nice. It was fine he was at our, but it didn't emotionally have that impact. I think it was probably harder for my sister, who had kids, to realize that he wasn't going to be a part of their life.

Nick Gaylord: 55:57

Speaking of your sisters, I would love to have a conversation with each one of them one day to get their take on everything, but I can understand how obviously it's going to probably impact her more because of her kids.

Kim Gaylord: 56:09

Yeah, Jess tried really hard during those years to stay in touch with him, to have him up to their house. They lived still in Connecticut. She had two kids at the time that my dad died. Matthew was still a baby, but yeah and wait is that true?

Kim Gaylord: 56:25

Yeah, he was just before his first birthday, Right, right right and so, yeah, I think she tried and it was awkward and uncomfortable, but she wanted to do the right thing and I give her a huge amount of credit for that. And sometimes I would go up as well on weekends when he would go up or whatever. And then you, once you were around, but it's just that, listening to you talk to your brothers, it was obvious how you all had very different experiences with the death and with the processing of it, right. So I never had that outward emotional like crying you know kind of a thing. I think I was just emotionally detached from him at that point, so it didn't really affect my life in a big way.

Kim Gaylord: 57:09

But there are certain things that are, yeah, you're resentful of certain things. Had he done a better job, he wouldn't have lost all of us and maybe he would have not had to take all of the money over the years that he took from his parents which, by the way, my grandfather had kind of like cut him out, kind of a thing of an inheritance of the will. So even though my grandfather died first and my grandmother then had the money, the end of the day it all went to my aunt's side of the family. My dad never got anything. We never got anything.

Kim Gaylord: 57:40

You and I have been lucky enough to do fine on our own and not need anybody's help. But there's a little bit of resentment there, you know that, for all those years of putting up with and all that and other people, but mostly it was just what a waste. Yeah, you know what a shame. I don't want to see anybody not live up to their potential, not be able to get past their demons and figure out a way to. And he just couldn't, wouldn't even have the conversation. It wasn't even a conversation to have.

Nick Gaylord: 58:09

Right, there was nothing wrong.

Kim Gaylord: 58:10

No, that right. That's the thing. That's where you and I always are able to connect is both of our dads would have told you everything was fine. Yep, they, they were never wrong. It was yeah, and we both just stopped fighting at a certain point.

Nick Gaylord: 58:25

Right.

Kim Gaylord: 58:26

I mean you said that, I think with your brothers you said that, or with your first episode, and that's what I did. I just removed myself from the situation. I'm that person who I will be loyal to you. I will do anything for you if I have you in my heart and I know you're good to me and solid and reliable and dependable. But I don't know, don't cross me.

Nick Gaylord: 58:48

Yeah, I think.

Kim Gaylord: 58:49

I mean I have a lot of enemies in life, don't get me wrong, guys, but when it's going to comes to your own father, who just should be your everything, it hits me every once in a while where you hear these stories of like girls whose dads are every. You know, my daddy is everything to me. I know, I think I had it when I was a kid. But there's a lot of kids. Look at, I mean, did Helene ever have it? Oh, and he was there in the house with her. You know you. Just, if he's not that person, he's not that person. No, and then everybody deals with the loss of it differently. Is the thing.

Nick Gaylord: 59:19

When dad and Rosemary got divorced, I mean Helene was nine 10.

Kim Gaylord: 59:25

Memories yeah, there's memories, but she certainly never had what he wasn't like her daddy, who was her everything Also.

Kim Gaylord: 59:34

I think you want to be able to look up to your parents. You want to be able to respect them and we both had moms who were so easy to respect, although I will be honest and say that there was a period of time where it was a little bit hard for me because I didn't understand why my mom was staying with him, and she and I have talked about that many times over the years and I think she would say that it was one of the big reasons that she found the strength to eventually leave was or kick him out, I guess I should say was because I don't think she did want to be that person who was going to lose her daughter's respect. Daughters, I don't think she did want to be that person who was going to lose her daughter's respect. Yeah, daughters, multiple, you know she knew so. But yeah, I mean you were raised by a single mom who worked every day of her life to support you guys, to still be there for you, to go to the Boy Scouts and all that stuff, and he wasn't. So we had that comparison that was pretty obvious, of good guy, bad guy, and I'm the first to say it's never that black and white. We've talked about this many times over the years.

Kim Gaylord: 1:00:36

No parent is all good. No parent is all bad Absolutely not. There's good in both, but it's just, yeah, it's sad, it's a waste, and I think the most thing that I take away from it is just with both of our families, how we all still have each other. We are all close, still have each other. We are all close mostly. All most of us, most of us, no, I mean, you know, we still get together with my family. We spend holidays, we go on vacations. We do the same with your family.

Kim Gaylord: 1:01:00

They're the ones who lost out they really are the ones who I mean your dad wasn't at our wedding. Your dad wasn't at helene's. I remember helene's sweet 16. He wasn't at. They're the ones. He didn't go to Jack's wedding, nope. So you know we did. We were there. We had a great time yeah everybody. There's pictures of all of us sitting on our mantles at all of these events that our dads aren't a part of. Yeah, I mean, we don't actually have a mantle, I don't know why.

Nick Gaylord: 1:01:26

We did in Texas. We did in Texas, but now we had a mantle, a fireplace. But we do not have a fireplace now and we don't need it because we live in Swamp Island of Florida. We have a pool, exactly. It really is sad. It's kind of heartbreaking that they just couldn't get out of their own way, be part of everything. Again, I only knew your dad for a couple of years.

Kim Gaylord: 1:01:50

Yeah, and he was always on good behavior around you. Of course he was. So you never saw a lot of that and I'd say your dad was probably on good behavior around me.

Nick Gaylord: 1:01:57

My dad was definitely on good behavior around you. My dad was on good behavior around most people, especially if they weren't one of his children.

Kim Gaylord: 1:02:03

Well, I think it came up during one of the episodes. He was a charmer. Oh, he totally was he of the episodes he was a charmer. I mean he, oh, he totally was dickens off of. I mean I mean, yeah, it's kind of amazing that he didn't get more than five women to marry him, I mean only because he stopped trying. If he asked me, I think he probably could have. If he could have gotten off the couch, I think he probably would have gotten married well, that one story that michael told about yeah they were they went.

Nick Gaylord: 1:02:24

I don't think I had heard of one of the supermarkets. Yeah, he and michael went into. My dad by this point is, I don't know, probably like mid-60s or so and nothing physically to look at.

Kim Gaylord: 1:02:33

Are you going to tell the story again? Shouldn't you just tell people to go listen to the episode if they want to hear it? Well, hopefully it's good for business, if you sure. Well, I'll tell this part. I'm not gonna. I'm his business manager folks. I'm always.

Nick Gaylord: 1:02:42

She definitely is I'll tell the brief version and then you'll have to give the 30 uh, he, my dad, and my brother, michael, my youngest brother. They went to the supermarket. Michael was helping him and he's flirting with the cashier, who's significantly younger, and she ends up giving him his phone number and, of course, they get out into the parking lot.

Kim Gaylord: 1:03:02

Was there a challenge of some sort? Did Michael say something like he could never get a.

Nick Gaylord: 1:03:08

No, it was just my dad being my dad On his own. But then when they were out in the parking lot, he crumbled up the paper, threw the phone number away and he turned to Michael and said I still got it, which is very typical of my dad, but it is really sad that yeah, your dad had the confidence to him that my dad definitely did not have.

Kim Gaylord: 1:03:26

I never got to see him put it to use, but I can only imagine because when he was out in the world, when he was in those years working in the hospitals, and he was really good looking as a younger man he didn't age well, let's just say, but as a young man he was, when I see pictures very good looking.

Nick Gaylord: 1:03:42

Hoping that I age better.

Kim Gaylord: 1:03:44

Yes, you're off to a good start, man, all right.

Nick Gaylord: 1:03:51

Yeah, he could still charm. Yeah, he could, and he always. He always did multiple times when he was in the hospital before he ended up going into the nursing home yeah, he would pick, there were a couple.

Nick Gaylord: 1:03:59

Oh geez, there were a couple of times I'd be there, the last time in october of 2021, so there's two months before he went into the nursing home. You and I were up on long island for something and he had just gone and I went to see him and yeah, yeah, he was flirting with the nurse. It was like 27 years old. What the hell's the matter with you.

Kim Gaylord: 1:04:14

You've got nothing to offer, but he was still- Well, but we should point out that a large part of the reason your dad flirted or charmed was to get people to do things for him, and it frequently worked. So I can imagine with nurses if he charms them, they're going to pay extra attention to him. They're going to take better care of him. He only ever wanted somebody to take care of him, that's all he wanted.

Nick Gaylord: 1:04:38

Four of his five wives were in the medical field, so he was very good at the first one was also a nurse. I don't, that's all.

Kim Gaylord: 1:04:45

I know about her. I was just doing the math in my head. I got it.

Nick Gaylord: 1:04:47

Yeah, my mom was wife number two. For anybody who hasn't listened to my episode yet, what the hell are you waiting for?

Kim Gaylord: 1:04:54

And she's a nurse and Rosemary's a nurse, yeah, so yes, there was a lot of which makes sense, he's working in a hospital.

Kim Gaylord: 1:04:59

Sure, he meets women in a hospital. It all makes sense Absolutely. But I argued was who he was meeting and he had an affinity for I mean I would hear him on the phone sometimes strong minded women. Yeah, I mean, he could just just a couple times being at his house with him talking to somebody on the phone, man, and usually about like a bill collection or something bad, and he was charming. Yeah, yeah, my dad didn't have that, he didn't have that swagger, he didn't have that confidence. Yeah, I wouldn't say that about my dad when he was younger. Probably my mom would probably say that when he was like when that whole I'm gonna marry you someday thing as a teenager is probably pretty appealing on a certain level. But I think as the years went on it he got the girl and he lost he got the girl, and that was it.

Nick Gaylord: 1:05:51

That was it. He didn't need to be confident after that.

Kim Gaylord: 1:05:59

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I don't know, I don't know what else to say about, like my grieving process or it, I think, and we can talk about your grieving process. No, we've got sad. When my dad died, were you sad.

Nick Gaylord: 1:06:07

When my dad died I was sad for you and your sisters and your mom that he wasn't. I'm never going to say he was a bad father. I was not around long enough to be able to say that. I know from what you've told me, I know from what Jess and Vic have told me, and Phyllis hardly ever had a bad word to say. That's my mom, I'm sorry, that's your mom, my favorite mother-in-law. She never had a bad thing to say about your dad.

Kim Gaylord: 1:06:36

I think my mom and my sisters and I are all very honest and open about the reality of what it was. He was a lot of good and there was a lot of bad. It doesn't mean he was bad, but there were a lot of bad things. There are bad memories, there are bad tastes and mouths and things like that. But that doesn't take away the good. It's just side by side.

Nick Gaylord: 1:06:58

And it's not that your mom never talked about the bad times or admitted that there were.

Kim Gaylord: 1:07:04

We did. We've all had conversations about those but I think in my family we talk about things a lot more than you had mentioned. In your family that's not always the case. I think my mom and my sisters and I have always been able to talk about their relationship and the stuff with my dad pretty openly and honestly, and my sisters and I, for sure, with each other, which is nice. And, oh my goodness, could my heart have been more full hearing you and your brothers talk about it like that.

Kim Gaylord: 1:07:27

I know that it's harder for guys of our generation for sure they're not raised to share feelings and even have feelings or emotions, let alone express them. So to hear you guys all be willing to open up like that I mean obviously just for you to even be doing this at all, I mean it doesn't surprise me about you, because I know you and I know your heart and how much you always want to help people, and but you hear the four of you be able to talk about it. You know, and gosh, what I love about you guys is none of you is ever resentful of any of the others. For some part of goodness that they got that maybe they didn't. You know what I'm saying Like I don't ever sense that you and Jack are resentful that the younger kids had him in the house for as long as they did.

Nick Gaylord: 1:08:10

No, not at all.

Kim Gaylord: 1:08:10

Never right, which I think that would be a very normal thing. I think in a lot of second marriages the older kids do feel that. I think that's in large part to Rosemary welcoming you in and being, you know, like a second mom to you guys in many ways, and your mom being welcoming with them as well. I mean, I think the moms played a huge role in that. Just to hear you guys talk about it, I think, was just I love the closeness that you all have. You don't see each other. You know every day even Joe and Mike now don't but you're always there for each other. There's this constant text chat which, by the way, has the name of the text chat been put out there yet? Do I get to be the one to unveil that, or did it? I didn't finish listening to the-.

Nick Gaylord: 1:08:53

Pretty sure I'd put it out there, did you?

Kim Gaylord: 1:08:55

Is this on everybody's? I guess it is right. When Nick is talking to the texting with these guys on his phone, the header is Goodfellas, yes and that is on the episode number three. It is okay when I where I talked to the friends, it does say goodfellas. That's what they've always called themselves, because they think they're tough guys from New York. Are any of you? Oh yeah, rosemary's Italian. So the boys are all half Italian.

Nick Gaylord: 1:09:17

Rosemary's Italian. But I think that's about it. Yeah, I think that's it yeah there's not a lot of Italian.

Kim Gaylord: 1:09:23

You've inherited a little bit of mine, babe. You get to After 18 years. My mom is Italian.

Nick Gaylord: 1:09:28

Well, doing the 23andMe and the Ancestry, I did find out I have a little bit of Italian, not enough. Certainly not nearly as much as you. You're honorary.

Kim Gaylord: 1:09:39

Right.

Nick Gaylord: 1:09:43

I think, having been willing to put up with you for 18 years. No but trust me when I say everybody. It is the other way around. She has put up with me. Oh stop.

Kim Gaylord: 1:09:51

We put up with each other willingly. And yes, let's not be too-, all right, fine, we're okay. We barely tolerate each other.

Nick Gaylord: 1:09:58

We barely tolerate each other. It's a miracle that we're not divorced yet. We've joked many times about how we only stay together for the cat, who, of course, is 18 years old and she's decided that she's going to live to be about 50, so that we stay together forever.

Kim Gaylord: 1:10:14

Should we tell everybody that she is lying on the table? She is.

Nick Gaylord: 1:10:17

She is up on the desk. I don't know if I put this out there, but this is. Of all of the interviews that I've already recorded, many have yet to come. This is the first in-person. You mean Yeti many that you haven't published yet, dropped yet, that have not been released yet. Yeah, a lot of interviews have been recorded but just not dropped yet. This is the very first interview that I'm doing that is in person. And yes, maxie, our 18-year-old Calico, is now up on my desk, as she frequently is during the workday, and I turned off the keyboard because she's half laying on it, but she she's staring at me longingly. She is, she likes to keep us company.

Kim Gaylord: 1:10:53

We got her I'm not usually in this room, so she's probably confused, right? She's very confused right now why I'm in here sitting so long talking to you.

Nick Gaylord: 1:10:59

We've had her since the same weekend that we got married. Actually, the first marriage, we got married on June 30th. We got her on July 2nd. Second, she was six weeks old and she recently had her 18th birthday and, aside from a little bit of hyperthyroid and being deaf, she's generally in very good health and I keep telling her she's going to live to at least 30. That's the benchmark that I've set.

Kim Gaylord: 1:11:23

It's also the age that he has decided she's allowed to start dating.

Nick Gaylord: 1:11:26

Yes, Maxie, if you make it to 30, I will allow you to start dating Well that was a different time.

Kim Gaylord: 1:11:31

I will allow you to start dating.

Nick Gaylord: 1:11:32

Let's get out of the house Maxie In a different time. When we were trying to have kids, I always joked that if we had a daughter, she would be locked in the basement until she was 30. We were living in New York at the time.

Kim Gaylord: 1:11:41

I, of course called him sexist for making such a Well and would never have let him do it unless our son was also locked in the basement. Yeah, he let him do it unless our son was also locked in the basement?

Nick Gaylord: 1:11:49

Yeah, he would have been locked inside of the basement where the litter box was. Yeah, I think I said that I would let her outside and let her see the son for the first time when she was 25. We never ended up having children, so I didn't have to worry about locking our daughter in the basement, and you know.

Kim Gaylord: 1:12:03

Maxie I also like to say that his threat of doing that is one of the reasons why the universe decided not to get along with many other along with many other things which we won't get into because this is a semi family-friendly podcast.

Nick Gaylord: 1:12:19

But yeah, maxi has been the glue that holds us together. No, she is not kidding, I'm only kidding we, we have she's come with us.

Kim Gaylord: 1:12:26

I mean, we dragged her from new york to texas and now to Florida and she's lived. I think we've promised her this is it, but we'll see.

Nick Gaylord: 1:12:33

Yeah, let's hope, so I mean we're talking too much about us.

Kim Gaylord: 1:12:36

We should get back to the topic at hand.

Nick Gaylord: 1:12:38

This is what people want to know about us, are you sure? Oh, of course they do. This was a great episode, and why didn't you guys talk more, all three of your listeners? That's right For anybody who keeps listening. Who's still listening at this point? Well, who keeps still listening at this point? If you're still out there, that's right. If you're still out there and tuning in, one of the features that will be coming up on Our Dead Dads is a monthly bonus episode. That segment will be called segment, where you will get to ask me questions. Some who participate in the Arrow Dead Dad social media have already seen this and started to participate. There will be a different guest host or guest co-host every month, and Kim has graciously agreed to be the guest host for the episode that will air sometime in July. That will be the first one. That will be the very first.

Kim Gaylord: 1:13:31

I might like it so much I want to do all of them. Yeah, you might say the hell with-. I like putting you on the hot seat. That works for me.

Nick Gaylord: 1:13:37

So, who knows, maybe Kim will either be a semi-permanent or permanent co-host of the feature. We'll see how that goes, but yes, that bonus episode will be coming up sometime in July. To close out about well, this is more about your dad than our dads. If you had the chance to say something to your dad that you knew would have been significant enough, meaningful enough for him to I don't know get his shit together and to be the dad that you guys hoped he would have been, could have been that he potentially could have played a more significant role in your adult life. Was there anything that you would have said to him?

Kim Gaylord: 1:14:17

Well, okay, as you were asking the question, I was thinking that's not, you can't, there's nothing you can do to no, and I've said that about my dad.

Nick Gaylord: 1:14:25

If he had lived another 25 years he never would have changed.

Kim Gaylord: 1:14:28

But if we had that right. You can't get somebody who is an alcoholic to stop drinking if they don't want to on their own. But when you at the end said, as an adult, I think if I as an adult, had been able to say to him how little he would have to do to get back on track, like I think if I had been able to say to him you just have to be yourself, I don't know, be honest, I don't know what it really was. It's almost like I can't even imagine it, so I can't form the question. But yeah, I guess I would have just wanted him to realize how little he would have had to do. But then also I acknowledge that it would have been a huge hurdle for him to climb, because I just don't think he had the tools. I just don't think he could be honest with himself, let alone anybody else, about who he really was. I think there were some demons there that I probably don't even know about For sure. I think there were some demons there that I probably don't even know about For sure. I think there were. I think he just had spent his whole life creating this mirage of what his life was, and a lot of it wasn't true and wasn't honest. And that's where? Where can you be if you don't have honesty? I don't, you know.

Kim Gaylord: 1:15:46

I always say that, like I don't feel the need to share every thought I have with people. I don't feel the need to. I can be a very private person, but I very rarely am not able to be honest about something. That is my truth, right, and I think you're very much like that as well. Right, and I think you're very much like that as well. And I think it's been very helpful and made us have the marriage that we have today. Because when push comes to shove, when there are hard times, when I had to say to you you need to go talk to a therapist you know 15 at that point, whatever it was, you did it and it was. It's. It's hard, it's not always easy, but the work that we put into ourselves and each other is what gives us the marriage that we have, the life that we have.

Kim Gaylord: 1:16:44

And again, I understand that people of our parents' generation, dads, were not given the gifts of that, that we were the openness to it, the acceptance of it, but yet it was possible. There are, there were dads, yep of our generation, who were perfectly open and wonderful with their kids and you know. So, yeah, you know it's, it's both it's. You understand it, you can forgive it, but it still was what it was. It. It didn't change. It doesn't exactly. It's still shitty yeah, yeah.

Nick Gaylord: 1:17:17

Well, thank you for opening up about that. A lot of that I knew. Uh, there was. You know, there were definitely some things that you had mentioned in there that I hadn't heard you really elaborate on, yeah, you know about when you were younger, but it's not. Yeah, you don't talk about it a lot. No, when you were younger but it's nice.

Kim Gaylord: 1:17:31

Yeah, you don't talk about it a lot. No, you don't talk about it.

Nick Gaylord: 1:17:34

It's not exactly dinner table conversation, but it is nice to get those things out there sometimes.

Kim Gaylord: 1:17:40

Yeah Well, I think we've talked about your dad so much more, because he was alive, for so much more of our time together time together and then the time leading up to his death. It was such a constant in our lives, because you were doing so much to get him situated, that it was just always a conversation between us, whereas with my dad it just happened suddenly, I didn't have to do anything. It didn't impact our lives as much on a day-to-day basis before or after. It sort of just happened.

Nick Gaylord: 1:18:11

Yeah, your dad was, from what we knew, or what we were aware of, fine one day and then he was in the hospital and a week later he was dead. So it was pretty abrupt where my dad, his health issues, went on for more than the entire time that you and I have been together.

Kim Gaylord: 1:18:27

Yeah, I mean I thought your dad dying when he did was very surprising. I didn't expect it, but I'm just saying like his health and his situation was a part of our daily lives at that point. There was not a day went by in the months leading up to his death that you weren't on the phone with somebody dealing with some part of the system the financial part of it, the health part of it. So when then, a few months later, there started to be this behavior coming from you that was not who you normally are, that you and I weren't meshing the way we normally do, we were bickering and all these things, it was the only thing I could attribute it to, because I was fairly certain we were fine and this wasn't really about me.

Nick Gaylord: 1:19:07

Yeah, no, it wasn't, I'm pretty sure. I asked you did. Things between us were great and it was entirely about that, and when you pointed that out, I really hadn't thought about it, but luckily you said something and I very quickly realized fuck yeah, this is something I need to deal with. This isn't something we need to deal with, and you know you.

Kim Gaylord: 1:19:29

But, to your credit, you wanted to, and I don't think you wanted to only because I wanted you to or to make things better. I think you recognize that you needed to for yourself, yeah, and you didn't want to carry that anger through the rest of your life. You wanted to get help.

Nick Gaylord: 1:19:47

Right, and it wasn't even a situation where I felt I had to do this for us. I mean, if it was that much of a problem I would have, but it wasn't. That it was. Yeah, I was dealing with anger that I wasn't really aware of where it was coming from. Speaking with a therapist got me to figure out where a lot of that was coming from, and it was, you know, I don't know. It was resentment towards him for just being the asshole that he was for most of his life, especially for the last several years of his life, for putting all of his children through what he did, you know, even more than that, for just being who he was for most of his life. Yeah, and it was. It was refreshing to have that perspective from a therapist.

Kim Gaylord: 1:20:29

Well, I was going to say I think you've mentioned this before that you know therapy might not be for everybody in every circumstance, so that's all you can do is put that out and say, hey, this worked for me. I think for you, your journey toward talking to a therapist successfully was a little bit harder because, like you mentioned, you didn't always grow up in a situation where people talked about things a lot, or a lot was. I mean, it didn't really take very long for her to hone in on the issues and for her to get you to the point where you know what you said to me was what she helped you realize was there was nothing you could have done to change the situation. Right, and you said it in one of the episodes.

Kim Gaylord: 1:21:11

Had he lived another 25 years, it would not have changed. So maybe you were feeling a little bit like you got robbed of some chances or some time. And I think she helped you realize no, this was what it was. It's nobody's fault, it just is. You have to accept it and move on and let the anger go, because it's not going to hurt him. At this point there's no one to direct it to, except keep it inside yourself or share it or direct it at the people around you, which isn't what you want to do.

Nick Gaylord: 1:21:38

Definitely didn't want to do that and that's why I've said constantly on this podcast that anybody who's going through something look, we all go through shit. Everybody deals with shit at one time in their life or another. It's not all the same, it doesn't have to be the same circumstances. Even if it's dealing with a dad and you're trying to process stuff from after he's gone, everybody's path through that is different. Everybody's shit that they dealt with is different.

Kim Gaylord: 1:22:05

I think talking is the one universal thing, though, don't you?

Nick Gaylord: 1:22:09

It doesn't have to be to a therapist and that's what I've been saying is you have to just be willing to start, or even journaling.

Kim Gaylord: 1:22:15

I mean, maybe you're not ready to talk to another person, but maybe writing out your own thoughts, Journaling For some people that's. I know it's very helpful.

Nick Gaylord: 1:22:22

Journaling is another great way to do it.

Kim Gaylord: 1:22:32

I personally think a lot of people can benefit from talking to a stranger in certain circumstances over somebody in their own lives, because there's nothing else other than the words that are said. They don't have any other context. When you're talking to somebody you know there's all this other context that comes into it. So partly I like that about therapy that it can sort of hone it down to just what's being said in that room or on that phone call. But look, not everybody's going to be open to it. But certainly I mean you know my message to gosh to anybody would just be don't keep it in, just get it out, let it go. Do better the next time. And yeah, we always say that right, Every generation has to.

Nick Gaylord: 1:23:09

Yeah, we have to leave this place better than we found it.

Kim Gaylord: 1:23:12

We talked about this before you and I grew up with dads who were racist and unaccepting and thought they walked on water and I 100% promise you, if we had had kids, that would not have been the case. But with all the children in our lives we try to have a very I mean, you and I could not be more opposite of that, and that's the thing that you do. You just do a little bit better and then the next generation do a little bit better than that and a little better than that, and I think that's how it all goes down.

Nick Gaylord: 1:23:40

And I think it's getting better with the younger generation. Helene, my younger sister. She is 17 years younger than me. She's 31. I think around her age and younger, it's definitely improving. Therapy is more accepted, especially for children who need it and for young adults. It's not something that was ever come in place or even discussed at all when I was in school.

Kim Gaylord: 1:24:10

There's more assistance in schools for it. You know there's counseling and there's all these things that are available. It wasn't even talked about when we were kids, let alone. It was like an embarrassment almost. It was yeah, it was like oh, that's a broken home, right you?

Nick Gaylord: 1:24:23

know, and so yeah, Right.

Kim Gaylord: 1:24:25

Let alone you're going to, like you know, go to talk to somebody about it. So yeah, I mean it's changing. Hopefully that's one of the things that's changing for the better in our world too. I mean there could be some. I mean I know it's called Our Dead Dads, but it's about grief of all kinds and I know you're going to have guests on who aren't just dealing with the death of a dad but other types of loss and grief, and that's going to resonate. I mean, who knows who's going to hear, and maybe it's somebody who hasn't lost a parent yet, but just in hearing it will, we'll be more prepared for when the time comes.

Kim Gaylord: 1:25:09

You're right, this is not going to exclusively be about dads there will be other topics that we will cover and I think loss of a parent, for sure, loss of a parent for sure. Yeah, In our case it's been our dads. Your mom is still alive, so it's not-.

Nick Gaylord: 1:25:18

Right, both of our moms are here, both of our dads are gone, so for us that is a similarity, but for this podcast it's starting around dads, and dads will be a big theme throughout the course of this but there will be other things to cover, and loss comes in so many forms.

Kim Gaylord: 1:25:33

Really, it's about getting through.

Nick Gaylord: 1:25:34

It's about the grieving process Exactly, and there's so many types of loss that any of us could experience a parent, a sibling, a child, a friend, jobs, losing a home, losing a pet, anything. There are so many many forms of grief and loss as we or I, or the listeners and the guests can think of, because it is something that needs to become commonplace conversation. It needs to be easier to talk about these things than it currently is, even in 2024, we're not dealing with the eighties or even, you know, the forties and fifties and sixties, when our parents were growing up, when it was impossible to talk about that kind of shit. It's not as hard now, but it's still hard. It is still, in many places of society, seen as taboo.

Kim Gaylord: 1:26:42

Well, there is this idea of like over it in a certain I don't know appropriate societal amount of time, because death makes the other person so uncomfortable that they want you to get past it so that things can go back to normal, and overall I think that's a pretty healthy way to live.

Kim Gaylord: 1:27:03

But there are some kinds of grief I can only imagine for some people, under certain circumstances, that change them so fundamentally that they are never the same, that it doesn't ever go back right. You know, and I think that's why I love this idea of you talking about to all different types of people, about all different kinds of loss. I think one that's come up I'll give a little hint is what about a child who loses a parent very young and doesn't grow up with that father or that mother? I mean that talk about you're supposed to get over it or you're not supposed to feel from it. I can only imagine what that must be like. So, yeah, I look forward to seeing the different kinds of people you speak to and what comes of it, and yeah, I'm so curious to see where it goes.

Nick Gaylord: 1:27:50

I am too. This is at this point. This is episode number four. We have a very long way to go. There's a lot in the tank to be released that you guys have not been made aware of yet, and even beyond that cliffhanger there's a lot to come and I'm so excited about the possibilities of where this podcast can go.

Nick Gaylord: 1:28:16

I'm so grateful to you for giving me to you, yes for the opportunity to just try and build this. As I've already put out there, this kind of started coming together late January, early February, when I was out of work. I was in between jobs. I'm back to working full-time again now, but for about three months I was not, and that's when I started forming this idea. Talking to a couple of other people talked to you about it and you, without any hesitation, said pursue it, see where it goes. And not that I had any you know, worries or doubts that you were, but it also might have been easier to not do this and just say you know, when I find another job I need to focus on that.

Nick Gaylord: 1:29:03

It's going to be too much and it has been a lot for what I've gone through in the last four months of building this podcast, and I won't say it's been a strain on us at all. It's taken, obviously, time away from us because this has turned into a lot of nights and weekends working on this, but this is something that I believe in very passionately. I've wanted to help people, and who knows how long I'll be doing this. Is it six months a year, 10 years? Who knows? I hope it's a very long time. I know that as time goes on it won't be as time consuming. There was a lot to do in the beginning, but the mission is to help people because a lot of us need it.

Kim Gaylord: 1:29:43

Yes, and I wouldn't want to be the person to deny you that we negotiate in this relationship, but we talk things through. I'm not entirely sure if, at every point in the past, I would have been as open to saying go for it as I am now, but, having started two of my own businesses, been as open to saying go for it as I am now. But having started two of my own businesses, I felt like you've always been so supportive of me. You've taken the reins to financially support us and let me do what I wanted to do, and not just let me, but like supported, encouraged, and so that part of it was the no brainer for me, like yes, if this is what he's passionate about, he needs to give it a go. I think we're both always conscious of the sort of financial side of it of not doing either of us doing anything that would potentially affect our household.

Nick Gaylord: 1:30:34

Right, I'm not going to go and start a business, yeah.

Kim Gaylord: 1:30:37

They weren't asking me for, you know, a million dollars out of our personal finances to start something here, and nor, for the record of my business, has done that to us when I've started. So you know, that's the sort of practical side of it, but the emotional side of it is I saw what it meant to you. You sold it really well to me and I'm not always an easy sell. I'm usually pretty critical of you know things that I don't think they're. I would have told you if I didn't think you could do this Right. But also, gosh, I just couldn't be more proud of you. I mean, I have seen what this has been like for you and how hard you've worked.

Kim Gaylord: 1:31:10

I don't know if people out there have any idea what goes into starting a podcast, or at least not the way Nick's done it, but you would have to be as devoted to this as he is to have put in all of that work While I'm sitting on the couch reading a book, and he was working at eight, nine o'clock at night after a full day of work, and he loves it. He comes out smiling every time he does an interview. So yeah, I got you babe.

Nick Gaylord: 1:31:33

That means more than anything.

Kim Gaylord: 1:31:34

Yeah, do I get my questions now?

Nick Gaylord: 1:31:36

Wow, look at that. You guys see how abusive and bossy she is. I just asked. You guys see how abusive and bossy she is I just asked.

Nick Gaylord: 1:31:42

No, of course. Yes, it is now time for one of my favorite parts of the interview. I mean, obviously, probably my favorite part, not talking about death and grief, but getting to meet all the amazing people that I've gotten to meet and being so lucky and honored to have everybody share their personal stories with me and therefore with all of you. But something that I have loved doing. I tried it with my brothers, which was the very first interview that I did, which was kind of an experiment. At the time I didn't know if it was really going to become a long-term feature, but it has and it's going to stay this way for the duration of this podcast. It is time to ask you a whole bunch of random questions so that we can end this on a little bit of a lighter note and everybody gets to learn some fun little nuggets of knowledge about you.

Kim Gaylord: 1:32:35

Babe, would you like to tell your listeners whether or not you think I'll be good at this game or not? Don't lie I think you're going to be good at this game or not.

Nick Gaylord: 1:32:42

I don't lie, I think you're going to be good at this game.

Kim Gaylord: 1:32:45

I will be horrible at this. I don't think fast. I hate having to give one answer when I could give 20, but let's see how it goes. All right, well, just you know throw me a three, three softballs to begin with.

Nick Gaylord: 1:32:56

All right.

Kim Gaylord: 1:32:57

Is that the?

Nick Gaylord: 1:32:58

expression softballs, softballs. Yeah, if you uh slow ball down the middle, okay here's an easy one.

Kim Gaylord: 1:33:06

Okay, do you enjoy performing in front of an audience? No, that wasn't hard actually. That's not entirely true. I am. I'm one of those few people who has no problem publicly speak, doing public speaking. But if you ever ask me to perform, like to act, no, no, no, only I have to be as me, that's right.

Nick Gaylord: 1:33:22

If you were given the opportunity to fly into space, given today's technology, would you take it?

Kim Gaylord: 1:33:27

No, no, I'm too scared.

Nick Gaylord: 1:33:30

If you were to devote the rest of your life to philanthropy, which cause would you choose?

Kim Gaylord: 1:33:34

I think the oceans, I think saving the oceans, saving the oceans.

Nick Gaylord: 1:33:39

Good one. What is the last craft you made?

Kim Gaylord: 1:33:42

God, oh, saving the oceans, good one, what is the last craft you made, god?

Nick Gaylord: 1:33:47

Oh, does it count the thing we did?

Kim Gaylord: 1:33:49

for Nora. Yeah, that was good. Yeah, our niece who was born a few months ago. Her parents decorated her nursery with a Winnie the Pooh theme and I wanted to get her a keepsake box for it, so I did, and then I wrote a thing and decorated, designed a thing that we put inside of it from us, a note from Aunt Kim and Uncle Nick Love it.

Nick Gaylord: 1:34:08

Say a word in Spanish Alabra. I knew you were going to say that one. What makes you angry? Hypocrisy. What is your ideal outside temperature?

Kim Gaylord: 1:34:18

76.

Nick Gaylord: 1:34:20

And sunny 76 and sunny. 76 and sunny. Here's the Italian chef. On a scale of one to 10, one being the least, 10 being the most. How much do you enjoy garlic?

Kim Gaylord: 1:34:30

27. Nice, but not if it's burnt. It can't be brown at all, it can be roasted properly. That's different. That's not my favorite, but I'm a fresh garlic girl.

Nick Gaylord: 1:34:43

What time do you usually wake up? In the morning.

Kim Gaylord: 1:34:44

Currently. You want to just give the range. Yeah, I've been having a sleep problem lately I'd say right now. I'm waking up between like seven and eight, but I frequently, if I don't have anything to do before I take the long commute to my office down the hall. I've frequently been known to stay in bed and read for a little bit, which is one of my absolute favorite things to do in the morning.

Nick Gaylord: 1:35:06

What was your major in college?

Kim Gaylord: 1:35:08

Communications.

Nick Gaylord: 1:35:09

Favorite day of the week Sunday Favorite childhood TV show the Brady Bunch. I don't know, maybe that's a good one.

Kim Gaylord: 1:35:20

What is your favorite thing to do in the summertime? Well, right now it's to be in our pool, for sure, or go to the beach, but it's a little hot for the beach right now, so I'd say the pool, yeah.

Nick Gaylord: 1:35:27

Love the pool Scale of one to 10, one being the worst, 10 being the best. How good are you at trivia?

Kim Gaylord: 1:35:32

Four. Okay, not great. I don't have a great memory for stuff like that.

Nick Gaylord: 1:35:36

Okay, what is most likely to distract you when you work from home?

Kim Gaylord: 1:35:45

You, you and Maxie, I guess, although I'm probably more guilty of that than you are to be honest with you.

Nick Gaylord: 1:35:48

Probably You're going to love this one. Are women complicated?

Kim Gaylord: 1:35:51

Yes.

Nick Gaylord: 1:35:51

Yes.

Kim Gaylord: 1:35:52

Thank God, yes, thank God someone is Right.

Nick Gaylord: 1:35:56

Men are too simple. What is your favorite word Love? What software do you use the most during the workday? It's google account. I think google counts well. You also use canva I do.

Kim Gaylord: 1:36:08

I use canva a lot, obviously, I use all of the platforms that I book and stuff there, but it's not one, so I can't. Yeah, more than anything, I use google, oh, google maps. I have a map. I have at least two google map screens open at any given time to figure out how far this is from that.

Nick Gaylord: 1:36:22

Because, because you're- constantly going all over the world.

Kim Gaylord: 1:36:25

I'm all over the world Love it. Yeah, right now I'm in Italy, which makes me happier than any other place to be Love Italy.

Nick Gaylord: 1:36:32

Well, you've lived in both of these places, LA or New York.

Kim Gaylord: 1:36:35

Obviously New York. I'm a New Yorker Right.

Nick Gaylord: 1:36:38

What is your favorite rainy day activity? Reading Fill in the blank. Taylor Swift is. I'm sorry. Is that really a question?

Kim Gaylord: 1:36:48

It is really a question. You can't expect me to answer that in one question. Okay, because for those of you who don't know, which is like everybody except for two people, my youngest sister has, during the past, turned me into a complete Swifty, so Taylor Swift is my newest obsession. I don't know. Okay, yes, that's fair.

Kim Gaylord: 1:37:10

You know, what I would say is I love the inspiration that she is to young girls. I love that she doesn't shy away from being a strong woman in her life and in her words or her lyrics, but I also love that she's very generous.

Nick Gaylord: 1:37:26

Good answer, what she has. What is one thing you wish you enjoyed more? Exercise On a scale of one to 10, one being the worst and 10 being the best, how messy is your house or apartment?

Kim Gaylord: 1:37:39

It's not, we're not. No, we are not messy?

Nick Gaylord: 1:37:42

We're not messy. Yes, my office will occasionally become a little bit.

Kim Gaylord: 1:37:47

We're not obsessive about it, by the way. No, we'll go to bed with dirty dishes in the sink, but then we'll clean them up the next day, right? We're not just messy people, yeah.

Nick Gaylord: 1:37:57

I'd say I like to be organized. Organized house is very clean. Do you watch?

Kim Gaylord: 1:38:05

shows one episode at a time for binge, whole seasons, binge whole seasons. Yes, yeah well, it's hard right now, because we're in the middle of watching shameless together, and then I have shows that I'll watch on my own. We call those girl shows, yes, versus nick has boy shows, although not many, um, but shameless is taking us forever because of how busy you've been.

Nick Gaylord: 1:38:22

If we watch a couple a week, it's a lot, so yeah, we got through the first 17 seasons or something like that 11, 17 we got through, I think, probably the first four seasons pretty quick, probably like a month or two. Yeah, probably a month or so, and since this has started four months ago, we're now getting close to the end of season eight, which is okay, cause I mean it spreads it out a little bit, but at the same time, yeah, I just want to keep on watching.

Kim Gaylord: 1:38:48

I don't want to see, thank God, I don't wait around for you and I watch other things.

Nick Gaylord: 1:38:51

Yeah, you. That's why you have girl shows.

Kim Gaylord: 1:39:02

And at the same time.

Nick Gaylord: 1:39:04

Don't want to know any spoilers. What dish do you cook the best?

Kim Gaylord: 1:39:09

My quintessential favorite is the first thing I ever made for you, which is chicken cutlets and buttered orzo with broccoli, because Nick's favorite vegetable is broccoli. So I made it with broccoli and I still do to this day. But yeah, my chicken cutlets are right up there.

Nick Gaylord: 1:39:23

Name. No, I'm not even going to say one. You're a chef, so I'm going to change this and I'm going to say name three foods that start with the letter Q.

Kim Gaylord: 1:39:29

Okay, I'm a horrible speller. Does quinoa start with a Q? It does start with a Q. Okay, quinoa Quail. Wait, the original question was one and you're baking-. The original one was one.

Nick Gaylord: 1:39:39

I'm changing it because you're Did you name three.

Kim Gaylord: 1:39:41

How do you know there are three Heesh? I mirrored that. All right, I would have gotten this.

Nick Gaylord: 1:39:47

I would have even given credit for queso.

Kim Gaylord: 1:39:49

Queso was a food. It's one of the essential food groups. I lived in Texas for six years.

Nick Gaylord: 1:39:53

That's right. So there you go. There's four right there.

Kim Gaylord: 1:39:57

If you were, I guess it would be a cookbook or maybe gosh. Maybe someday I would like to write a book now about travel. I don't think I'm there yet, but I could see that someday.

Nick Gaylord: 1:40:08

Maybe you could incorporate both Food and travel. Food and travel. Imagine if there were TV channels and shows dedicated to that.

Kim Gaylord: 1:40:16

No, no, no, no, no. I don't do public. This is as public as I get.

Nick Gaylord: 1:40:19

What never fails to make you laugh, you Okay.

Kim Gaylord: 1:40:23

I get what never fails to make you laugh. You Okay, sorry, hopefully not a bad way. Well, there's one particular thing that will not be named in public. That you do that never fails to make me laugh, but in general, you definitely, you, yes, you brought up the funny in me, baby, that is for sure.

Nick Gaylord: 1:40:40

Well, I'm glad I could do that. You're welcome. What movie or TV show do you enjoy quoting the most?

Kim Gaylord: 1:40:46

Ooh Well, I'm not the movie quoter in our family, let's be clear about that. You are, but God. I think my answer is pretty basic and pretty much like everybody else's. It's my Cousin Vinny, I mean, it's just the quintessential yeah, such a good movie.

Nick Gaylord: 1:40:58

Yeah, such a good movie. Yeah, all right. Last question how do you want loved ones to remember?

Kim Gaylord: 1:41:06

you? What's my favorite color? How do I Gosh? I mean, I just want them to remember me as I was I. You know, I'm not perfect Pain in the ass. Yeah, I mean listen frequently I am, but I I I really do value like honesty and being who I am and not being fake. So if that's how I can be remembered, that'll work for me. And it's red, yes, my favorite color. I knew that, I know.

Nick Gaylord: 1:41:34

Everybody else didn't know that. I wanted to get it out, see that you guys got a bonus question answered. Didn't even know that was going to happen. Thank you so much for doing this. You're welcome, baby. I know that this was torturous and it was hell for you. It was not You're so miserable and you couldn't wait for this to be over. You didn't even want to get it started.

Kim Gaylord: 1:41:54

We did put it off pretty much the last minute. I will say that.

Nick Gaylord: 1:41:57

Yes, it was not torture. We did put it off Specifically.

Kim Gaylord: 1:42:04

that was by design so that the first few episodes could be released so I could listen to them listen to them.

Nick Gaylord: 1:42:07

But this was. I. Had a lot of fun doing this, I hope I did as well, I really did seriously yeah, and I hope that all of you enjoy listening to this. This is definitely not going to be the last time that you hear from kim, and, who knows, maybe next time we'll bicker a little bit. I'm kidding, we'll try not to do that. You never know. It depends on what the topic ends up being. That's it, that's it. I love you I love you.

Nick Gaylord: 1:42:36

I hope you had as much fun listening to that as we had recording it, and hopefully this helped to emphasize the importance of dealing with loss together. As were the cases with losing both of our dads, the effects are felt by everyone involved. Though our paths through our dad's passings were different, there were also a lot of similarities and ultimately we got each other through them. I'm so grateful to have Kim, for more reasons than I can count and, in this particular case, because she saw what I was going through after my dad died, even when I wasn't able to recognize it, which led me to therapy and ultimately, on the course of starting this podcast and hopefully helping so many others to process their varying stages and levels of grief. If you enjoyed that episode, then please get onto Apple Podcasts. Give us five stars, leave a short review and tell me what you liked. Tell me if you enjoyed our story. Tell me what you thought about Kim's story growing up with her dad. Tell your friends, tell everyone you know about this podcast, because together we are changing lives and I want everyone along for this ride. If you have a story of your own that you'd like to share, if you would like to be considered as being a guest on a future episode. Get ready to submit your stories, because the website, which is OurDeadDadscom, will be up and running very soon and you'll have the chance to send us your story through the website.

Nick Gaylord: 1:43:41

Remember, there are no rules to navigating grief and there's no timeline for doing it either. Everyone needs to go at their own pace, but the most important part is taking the first step. Whether you want to contribute your own story or you just want to listen to others tell their stories, know that you are in the right place, and also you need to know that nobody is alone in grief or should ever feel like they don't have someone who will talk or listen to them. You always have both right here.

Nick Gaylord: 1:44:04

Thank you for listening and join me next time when I talk to national bestselling author Coote Blackson, author of two life-changing books the Magic of Surrender and you Are the One. Also, he's the host of his own podcast, soul Talk with Coote Blackson. Coote will share his own story about first speaking in his father's ministry at eight years old, becoming ordained at 14, and then walking away from all of it a few years later to pursue and ultimately fulfill his own dreams of changing lives around the world. He also gives a deep exploration of his relationship with both of his parents, how his mother was always his biggest supporter and how the pursuit of his own passion led to the near destruction and ultimate reconciliation of his relationship with his father. This is Our Dead Dads, where we are changing the world one damaged soul at a time. See you next time.

Our Dead Dads

004 - Navigating Grief, Love, and Family Dynamics - A Journey of Healing with Kim Gaylord

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