The E Word

Why Is the Corporate Ladder Still So Steep for Black Women?

• Karen McFarlane and Brittany S. Hale • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Karen & Brittany's candid conversation sheds light on the systemic obstacles Black women leaders face climbing the corporate ladder back by disturbing findings from the McKinsey and LeanIn 2022 report. Learn how Black women, ambitious and poised for executive roles, are still being underestimated and labeled, their judgment second-guessed, and resilience tested in today's professional environments.

Dive into the nuances of identity politics, its role in shaping opportunities, and how we can leverage it to break down barriers for people of color. We engage with the historical context and its effect on the corporate presence of Black women, emphasizing the significance of collective action to amplify representation and authority in leadership spaces. This episode is a rallying cry for individual and corporate responsibility to actively dismantle biases and cultivate a culture where diversity is not just welcomed but celebrated.

We wrap up with an insightful discussion inspired by Bozoma Saint John's bold moves at Netflix, evaluating workplace biases and their legal ramifications. The conversation moves through a spectrum of subtle to overt prejudices, from body size to communication style, and how they impact women's careers, particularly those of color.

We then shift focus toward creating workplaces that champion inclusivity and support all employees, highlighting the importance of a workplace that not only recognizes but embraces the unique attributes and life choices of its workforce.

Continuing Education

  1. Black Women Leaders Are More Ambitious But Less Supported At Work, McKinsey And Lean In Study Finds
  2. Is There A Corporate 'Caste System'?
  3. 2022 Women in the Workplace Report 
  4. Women are held back at work due to 30 biases out of their control, says new study: ‘They were never quite right’
  5. Code-Switching and Concrete Ceilings: How Racism in the Workplace Affects Black Women 
  6. Racism and Sexism Combine to Shortchange Working Black Women
  7. The Infuriating Journey From Pet To Threat: How Bias Undermines Black Women At Work

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Brittany S. Hale:

What's the E-Word? It's the E in DEI that everyone ignores, but we're here to bring it to the forefront. Welcome to the E-Word.

Karen McFarlane:

Hey Brittany, Hello.

Brittany S. Hale:

How's it going? How you doing? Well, you know, I'm okay.

Karen McFarlane:

How are you Listen? I'm hanging in there. You know life is busy, although I hate that word. Busy, right, Hectic means to come up with new words. But whatever it is, guess what I found time for. What did you find time?

Brittany S. Hale:

for.

Karen McFarlane:

I found time to read and I I read this article that I think we need to talk about. Okay, okay, tell me more. So it's an article that's referencing and I'm reading in here, the mckinsey and lean in 2022. It's 20 from 2022, so I'll miss this one.

Karen McFarlane:

Women in the world okay, okay, I'm gonna read this excerpt, because this is kind of crazy. So it says Black women leaders are more ambitious than other women at their level 59% of Black women leaders want to be top executives, compared to 49% of women leaders overall. But they are also more likely than women leaders of other races and ethnicities to receive signals that will be harder for them to advance. The report says, compared to other women at their level, black women leaders are more likely to have colleagues question their competence and to be subjected to demeaning behavior. And one of three Black women leaders says that they've been denied or passed over for opportunities because of personal characteristics, including their race and gender. And this report covered 40,000 employees. So I'm stunned by this metric. All right, 59% of women. They want to be top level executives, but they're being questioned in the workplace Like, yeah, this totally resonates for me.

Karen McFarlane:

I'm just going to just a couple of stats that I think are really important from this, too. It says 20% of Black women leaders experience quote having someone say or imply that you're not qualified, compared to 12% of all women and 6% for all men. 38% of Black women leaders experience quote being mistaken for someone at a lower level, compared to 26% for all women and 13% for all men. And finally, the last stat I'll hit you with is 55% of Black women leaders experience quote having your judgment questioned, compared to 39% of all women and 28% of all men percent of all men.

Karen McFarlane:

So I, I I'm just taken aback by this, um, because, first of all, what kind of strikes me first and foremost right is this, this old stereotype that you know we always, always have to shake off, that black people are lazy, um, and we don't want anything, which has always been false. But you know, here's the data, and the data is clearly showing that, particularly black women, they want to rise, they, they want to achieve those top levels, but they're being held back by perception, yet again, which is the root of inequity yeah, and perception is reality right, and so their.

Brittany S. Hale:

Their ability to advance is only, you know, allowed by their ability to be perceived as a leader. But that's the difference between being bossy and having executive leadership being aggressive versus being assertive, being loud or being passionate, you know. Being passionate, what do you think? I guess the question then becomes assuming there's a black woman leader who is listening, or someone who wants to support a black woman in her pursuit of leadership, what advice would you give them?

Karen McFarlane:

You know it's interesting. I was asked a similar question when I was at a conference that was primarily for college students, right? So they were really asking, like, how can they be their authentic selves? Because that's something that I had talked about that at this age, right, it's much easier for me, but there's a privilege that comes with my time and experience and age that I have to recognize when I give this advice, right, that if you're 20 something years old, you know you. You may not have that yet, but one of the things that I think is really important, just in general as a human being, is for you to understand and lean into your strengths, know what those are, right, and build them into your personal brand. And when you know yourself, that is where your true power comes from. Right.

Karen McFarlane:

It's going to be hard to convince people that they should accept you, because some of these things are beyond your control, right your race and your gender like. There's nothing you can really do about that. There's preconceptions that come along with that From my generation, though. Obviously we know about those and we were always trying to transcend those by proving that we didn't fall into those. I don't know stereotypical categories, so we're always doing more than what we needed to do, or in many different facets, whether it's the work, whether it's how we show up, and I really kind of hate to say this, but I think that still holds true for this generation.

Karen McFarlane:

Until you know, these mindsets change right, because we are still not viewed the same. I'm not sure, from my perspective, that there is obviously a ton an individual person can do other than show up and show up as your best self and know who you are. I guess I would more want to flip that to the corporations right and people working for them and the not basically the non-BIPOC people is how are you going to show up and evaluate right People differently and not according to these so-called biases that you've been? That's been ingrained in your experience, so-called experiences throughout your lifetime, so I don't know that I have that yeah, yeah, you know this.

Brittany S. Hale:

This makes me think of again the, the perception and the bias and the, the broader conversation that we have around identity politics. Right, because if we cannot relate to, or very often in the pursuit of leadership roles, there's this encouragement to deny anything that will make you different or distinguish you outside of prior archetypes of what a leader has been. Yeah, but if we look at the early 20th century, identity politics were exactly the thing that forwarded American society, that created opportunities for wealth and ingenuity, right. So a little Italy, a Chinatown, right? These are these opportunities that have enriched American society but also created pathways to to wealth for various groups. Right, and we would never I have not seen it in leadership where they would tut-tut someone for celebrating St Patrick's Day or Lent or any of these things.

Brittany S. Hale:

And yet, and still we're now in an increasingly globalized world, we have more access to the world, we see that some of the fastest growing markets, the markets in Latin America, in Africa, and now we want to eschew identity politics. Now, this is something that we do not see as a means for opportunity, and so I guess I'm curious to know how and you brought up a great point, right, which is, um, black women leaders listening to this. Hopefully they're like finally someone, you know someone gets it, but it's. It's the non-bipoc people listening that really have to tune in. Because then the next question is okay, great if I, if I accept that identity politics are not a threat and, you know, represent opportunity, if I accept that, um, black women have incredible potential, um, and desire to be in leadership, how can I reframe my preconceived notions about Black women, who they are, where they should be, you know? I mean, you brought up the fact, the fact that they have been mistaken for people in lower roles than them. It's a, that's a huge, huge blind spot right Totally.

Karen McFarlane:

I mean, I think there's a couple of things right, which is, um, part of it is about competition, right? So you know, you and I already know as Black women, right, like Black people, black women are a force to be reckoned with. We are highly educated, we are incredibly intelligent and smart. This is historical, you know back to, you know our time in Africa. If you really go back to African history and really take a look at the role of Black women in general, it's just America's stereotypes and gender politics that pushes to the bottom of the rung. But at the end of the day, it's about competition, you know, and people who are working with Black women, with Black people in general. Right, it's about fear. It's about fear of someone taking over what they have. It's loss of that privilege. And you know, when you operate from a place of fear, that's when everybody loses.

Karen McFarlane:

And so you know there's work to do on an individual basis, right? You know me as a let's say me as the non-BIPOC person. What kind of cultural understandings do I need to come to grips with and really understand my background and what I was taught and then also fight against some of the things that are happening in society that's trying to basically hide that information from me, ask why are we trying to hide that information and how can I be a part of the solution? Then there's like a corporate aspect, which is you know, what is your philosophy, what's your mission? How are you going to you know, fully embrace, you know, the global perspectives that are part of your, your organization, and really issue them through the throughout the company and make sure that everybody is aware and practicing and working towards all that? Um, and I also want to kind of go back to something I said a little earlier about you know, there's not much on an individual level that people of color can do.

Karen McFarlane:

I still, I still think on an individual level it's a little harder, but on a collective level there's a lot that we can do right. Too often we are the only one in the room, right, and we know being the only one is very it's very hard to make a change. But if there's more only one in the room, right, and we know being the only one it's very hard to make a change. But if there's more of us in the room, then we have more power. And so, on an individual level, how can we bring more of us along right and on a collective level. How do we learn to work cooperatively again? Because we used to do that back in the day, right back in, yes, yes. How do we remember how to do?

Brittany S. Hale:

that for black leaders, and especially black women leaders, you you kind of have two paths right. You can keep your head down and be appreciative that you got to that point and toe the line and create that sense of safety. And if I'm being empathetic, I can understand why someone you know everyone has obligations and responsibilities and personal goals and professional goals and I, I understand that. But that I I'll say tongue in cheek, that's the kind of the the Clarence Thomas way To the space and no, don't let anyone else come in, right, don't, don't rock the boat. Yeah, but then you also create a space. There's another path where you can be the first, and I think you know both of us have been the first in many respects and we're also like okay, but, we're living in the future.

Brittany S. Hale:

Right, and so cool. We're the first to do X, y, z. We shouldn't have had to be so. How can we make sure that we're not the last, the only? But in creating that space, then comes the challenge of perfectionism. Right, because you cannot afford to make a mistake. Um, because there's always the threat of of erasure and, you know, erasing, the possibility of allowing others into the room. So I'm curious to know your perspective on how we can make way for Black women leaders and allow room for them to grow, to make mistakes, without it being the end of a Black woman leader.

Karen McFarlane:

One. It's choosing organizations that hopefully right, like you know they say it, but hopefully mean it when they say that they allow room for that right. So, being very particular about where you spend your time you spend most of your time at work, right, it is a marriage of some sort, and if it's not suiting your needs, not being afraid to leave and find somewhere else, that's going to do that. Secondly, you know it is bring more people along. Don't be afraid to do, don't be afraid to model that behavior of allowing people to make mistakes and forgiving them for it and growing them through it. But I think when you find that you bring more people along in that way and you fill rooms with more diverse cultures, backgrounds, faces, more people that look like you, you will find that you will have more room for that right.

Karen McFarlane:

If you're alone, right, and you are surrounded by the stereotypes that you know invade our society, you're just going to have less room for it, right. But so you need to create the environment that's going to create, that's going to create the safety for you. It's a shame that you have to do that, but you have to do that right. It's just more work that people have to do. But once we do that right, we start to create the fabric of that organization where that kind of you know that grows and it stay, hopefully stays, and we don't have to worry about that so much. So if you are the first, it is really your responsibility to bring other, bring many more people along, not just one.

Karen McFarlane:

Right, I was watching um, you know I'm on linkedin all the time and there was uh, from bozema, saint john, who's former cmo of of Netflix, and she was talking about her hiring practices. And you know she was, you know, hiring people. They happened to be either mostly black or mostly people of color, I can't remember. But HR contacted her and was like what's going on? You know? She's like what do you mean? You know? And they were like, basically, it was this, this, this call to the office like why are you hiring so many, I'm gonna say, people of color, I don't know if they're right, right right he's like I don't understand why you're asking me that, because when other people are hiring all white people, are you calling them to the office?

Karen McFarlane:

And of course, the answer is no. So it's also being able to talk those truths Again. Bozema was in a position of power and privilege, right? So we have to always remember who's saying these things, but that's why it's really important to bring other people along.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yeah, and then you mentioned perception, and of course you know there's one would hope that in your marketing expertise there's the cognizance of perception. You also shared some interesting facts around biases. Can we, can we pivot there? Because, oh my gosh, yes, yes, time to blue my mind because you know I've been reading okay.

Karen McFarlane:

So there's this other article pulling up. It's on cnbc. It's about uh, the title is called women are held back at work due to 30 Biases Out of their Control. Based on a new study, 30?

Brittany S. Hale:

30?.

Karen McFarlane:

Okay. So why don't we do like a quick little round? I'm going to go through 30 of them, right, okay? You just tell me real quick if they're legal or not from your Okay, right, okay, so, okay, okay.

Brittany S. Hale:

Number one accent Okay that is not protected, that's not a protected class, not a protected class.

Karen McFarlane:

So basically, if I start to make an accident, right Right, but it's legal, you could.

Brittany S. Hale:

All right. Yes, we should also note that this is not in any way meant to be construed as legal advice.

Karen McFarlane:

Having some fun. We're having some fun. All right, yes, yes yes, okay, although I will say with the accident. I remember navigating a conversation with two I'll call it a miscommunication at this point but someone thought they were being discriminated against that's a hard term, right Because of their accent, right. And so, navigate that conversation, it turns out that wasn't really the case. Actually, both people had different accents, right, it was something different, but it was a tension point which was interesting.

Brittany S. Hale:

Age Age is a protected class.

Karen McFarlane:

Attractiveness.

Brittany S. Hale:

That is, that is not a protected class. I mean attractiveness, one would hope, is incredibly subjective. You know, any biologists listening would say oh, it comes down to facial symmetry. But attractiveness is more than just your face. So and you can't that, okay, that's another. You can't control that along with age.

Karen McFarlane:

Okay, like you are as old as you know. You know you might not look it, you know whatever body size, so this is something that is very controversial.

Brittany S. Hale:

As it stands, there's no federal protections against discriminating on body size, but again, you know we have emerging conversations around fat phobia and how that shows up in our belief system, so we tend to believe that people who have larger bodies are less competent or less attractive or less. Yeah, class Class, not a protected class, at least from what I understand of yeah federal protections.

Karen McFarlane:

It's kind of general. And then there's color. Is there an alphabetical order? But there's color, but that's different than race.

Brittany S. Hale:

So that's interesting right right, yes, and color is actually protected. Age color creed um, you know. So if one is discriminating against, you know you do not want anyone heavily melanated. Or, for example, you know if when Elon Musk walks through the, the factories in California and the managers talk to all the people who are of color and tells them to get to the back of the room so they can't be seen to the back of the room so they can't be seen.

Karen McFarlane:

That is a violation of a protected class and I'm it's making me think of also actors, right, when you're trying to type, or yes, does that have? Again, this is not legal advice, right, we're just talking, but like right does that have some wiggle room when we think about Hollywood? It?

Brittany S. Hale:

does it does. Yeah, you know. I read an article recently, um, where they they talked about, you know, the the application of the manic pexy dream girl to black women, and how that character, who is fanciful and free and eclectic and an oddball, but also has this ethereal beauty, is almost always light-skinned, right, and how most of the actresses who are successful within Black Hollywood are light-skinned.

Karen McFarlane:

Most of the singers who have success, um, especially within hip-hop or r&b or pop, are light-skinned yeah, I think iola davis does a whole thing about, you know, being dark-skinned black women in hollywood and how she still isn't receiving, I guess, what she truly deserves compared to what her. You know what her achievements are compared to Her accolades are yeah for sure and white women. Okay, we also have communication style.

Brittany S. Hale:

Not protected. That's again something that is subjective can be somewhat subjective, yeah cultural identity that's tough when I read that. I read that as creed, which is again um a protected class, because there are some people who, for example, may say I'm culturally Jewish right and that would be protected. So kind of it depends on that one.

Karen McFarlane:

Dietary restrictions. This is interesting.

Brittany S. Hale:

This in and of itself is not protected, unless it is in conjunction with again another protected class, like religion or something like that but I can see this being a bias right, because yeah being like.

Karen McFarlane:

I see this all the time in terms of you know, you go on an event and are you a vegan? Are you not a vegan?

Karen McFarlane:

but there's just different layers of that and that's not really considered. Or you know, people who eat anything have like multiple choices, but vegans only have like one choice and there's and there's a stigma around that and having to cater to that there is also a stigma around that as well. So I see that all the time it's more. It feels like more low key, maybe because I eat everything, but it still feels like if I were on the other side of that, I would. I would not be satisfied.

Brittany S. Hale:

Try having a gluten intolerance or gluten allergy and going to a continental breakfast. Or you get a bagels and all of that. It's not not pleasant. Bagels and muffins and all of the things you can't eat yes.

Karen McFarlane:

I went gluten free for what I thought was a health issue for a while. That was so tough I I yeah, I don't know how people you know um allergic can deal um education, nope. So that's interesting. I mean, I know it's not protective, but it also feels we're talking about biases, but also in some ways feels discriminatory to some degree, because you know you have a lot of jobs that require a degree in order for you to be considered for them, some of which don't really need a degree, right Like there are you know, know occupations like I don't know medical or accounting yeah, yeah but a lot of other things don't.

Karen McFarlane:

And I know this. I know society's trying to like parse this away and rethink that, but um, I don't know it. Just it leaves a lot of people at a disadvantage 100.

Brittany S. Hale:

there are tons of law firms who are only hiring people from the top 10 law school, you know, and or you know just the top five, and regardless of how someone's performed in their law school of choice, you know, they say no thanks.

Karen McFarlane:

Employment history Not protected Ethnicity. Protected Gender conformance.

Brittany S. Hale:

Emerging. But yes, you are well, sex and gender are very different, but as we see all across the country, you know we're still wrestling with that. So yeah, definitely depends More to come on that one. Yes, yes, health, yes, yes, health. Um. Yeah, you know, we have the americans. Uh, you know, disability, the ada um the americans with disabilities act, um. Does that stop people from having a bias against those who require different accommodations? No, but ostensibly one should be protected right in that intellectual ability tying it back again to the ada.

Brittany S. Hale:

If there's some sort of disability, definitely protected.

Karen McFarlane:

Yeah it also feels a little subjective, right, you know 100.

Karen McFarlane:

If I don't think that you're smart because you know you don't you know, play sudoku or whatever you know, like that, well, people just think differently incredibly subjective right right and yes you know, people just might not think like you, and that's yeah, it should be looked at as an asset, not, as you know, negative yeah neurodivergence is real, exactly marital status? No, it's interesting, I mean, as I'm going through this list and we're we're talking about the legality of it. These are the things just to remind us that. You know, women are judged on, you know 100 percent.

Brittany S. Hale:

So if you're, I've had friends, yeah exactly, who were young single women and have been told oh my gosh, you know, do you have a boyfriend? Because they're thinking is're going to get married soon and have a baby and I'm going to have to replace you and I don't feel like hiring you. Oh my gosh. Or if you're newly married, right, then you're going to have a baby, and then you know, there's this whole thing. Conversely, when you're hiring a single woman, very often there's the belief that you can pay her less right. She doesn't have a family to support. So you're, you're leaning on certain biases to make legitimate business decisions that are not rooted in any sort of fact wow, there's a lot that goes into what people think nationality um I would.

Brittany S. Hale:

I would say that's arguably under creed.

Karen McFarlane:

But yeah, tbd on the occupation and occupational an occupational position not protected, but we definitely know that there are biases.

Brittany S. Hale:

Right, if you're a c-level person, you're having a different conversation than if you're an associate I mean that kind of rolls into class.

Karen McFarlane:

You know, I think I was reading something about like there's a corporate caste system, you know that type of thing, and something about like there was a corporate cast system, you know that type of thing.

Karen McFarlane:

And yep again the power and privilege that comes with that. Um, I was just thinking back to as you just popped in my mind and organized I don't know that they do this now, but back in the day this organization. If you wanted to join it, you know, you had to be of a certain stature, right to join it, right. So they looked at your marital status, they looked at your occupation, your position, they looked at all of those things and to judge whether you could, you know, make it into this organization. I don't know that they do that so much now. Um, and it was interesting, because I wasn't married, I didn't think I was going to get in the organization. I did leave it a few years later. I didn't think I was going to get in the organization. I did leave it a few years later, but I didn't think I was going to. But I was like, if that's your metric, we're going to have a problem, right.

Brittany S. Hale:

Right, right, but they didn't have to deal with that.

Karen McFarlane:

So then, we have parental status. Now, parental status. Why would this be something that, oh, parental Okay, I'm thinking about my parents, no, you as a parent.

Brittany S. Hale:

Let's just say yeah, right, right, exactly, definitely biases. Yeah, definitely biases. There are varied protections across the country to protect parents, but you know, even men do not, or non-birthing parents do not have the same access parental leave that the birthing parent does.

Karen McFarlane:

So yeah, um, I'm going to skip down to pregnancy, because I think that's part of it as well.

Brittany S. Hale:

And then there's personality traits no, so subjective physical ability depends on if it qualifies as a disability.

Karen McFarlane:

But again, if this person is just not athletic, you may come to certain beliefs about them that are not rooted in any sort of fact right, or maybe there's certain jobs that people that that need a certain level of ability for physical labor, but that doesn't necessarily mean that women can't do it. That's they're just right to believe that we can.

Brittany S. Hale:

Right if you don't think she can lift 20 pounds? You know in her world right.

Karen McFarlane:

Yeah, we have political preferences and I'm just going to put that next to religion. Um, those are protected, not protected religion right, religion is protected.

Brittany S. Hale:

Political preferences no, it's um. I I mean, I guess you could see it as a violation of one's freedom of speech.

Karen McFarlane:

First amendment rights, um, but yeah, so we could say protected, protected residential location not protected but you're judged based, I guess, judged based on where you live, right, right when you have that.

Brittany S. Hale:

You know, if you say you, you live in Manhattan versus Harlem, there's a different reaction, right oh?

Karen McFarlane:

yep, you're right.

Brittany S. Hale:

And then you are stereotyped based on that um seniority, uh, sexual orientation yep, so we know sexual orientation is um is protected and growing in its protections. Seniority there's no, you know nothing saying that we can't discriminate against people. In fact, very often that's how you gauge the decision-making process right. An associate does not have the same ability to make decisions as a director or a manager.

Karen McFarlane:

Yeah, and finally we have veteran status.

Brittany S. Hale:

Veteran status is protected. If you've ever filled out a job application, you get that question right Are you a veteran? Are you a United States veteran?

Karen McFarlane:

Yep, I mean again, this is kind of crazy. I know some of these are protected, some of these are just really subjective, but there's so many things that were subjective that are beyond someone's control. I mean some things like I guess you can control your political preferences, right, or maybe you can control your personality traits. I don't know, because some people need you know, but most of these things on this list is just, you know, it is what it is right, and apparently women are judged more harshly against these 30 things. And what does that mean for us? Right? How do we combat the things we can't control?

Brittany S. Hale:

right or may not even be aware of I. I don't know if our listeners realize that they are regularly being judged based on these 30 things at least. Right, right, um, yeah, yeah, that's a great question. How do you create space and opportunity when you can't? You know there's nothing to you, know it's so subjective, you know you don't want to come in and then ask your manager do you find me attractive? Can I just can I be clear about that is is you know my, my uh choice to remain child free or to reproduce? How is that going to impact me within this next calendar year?

Karen McFarlane:

I mean, very few people are having these conversations, right, and yet, and yet it matters well, I think that's really why it's important for, obviously, organizations to create you, you know, environments that that that welcome so many different people and of different body types, languages, cultures, backgrounds, but also, like as I said before, like, choose your company right, choose where you want to spend your time. You know, look at the people who are working there. I know, if it's remote it's a little bit more difficult to really get the full, like landscape of things. But, you know, when you're going into the office for an interview, really scope this place out Like they're interviewing you but you're interviewing them as well. So you want a place that's going to welcome who you are as a person.

Karen McFarlane:

You know, as a person, you know, um, it's sad. I mean, I'm laughing, but a lot of this stuff is really kind of sad because some of these, a lot of things you can't change and you're, like you said, we're not aware of, and you walk into these spaces feeling like you're showing up and people are shutting you down. Um, right, because on top of, potentially, your race and ethnicity and your gender, right, which are the top things, right, you're, you're being judged for your, your size, right, if you happen to mention that you're married with kids in the interview. You don't know how that's even taken. I've known people that you know when they are interviewing and they are pregnant, they don't say anything because for fear to prevent them from getting hired, or people who are in their roles and they are pregnant and they wait till the last minute Because technically, I think you don't have to say anything until you're about ready to leave, like you could be.

Brittany S. Hale:

Exactly, and no one can approach you about that. I had a friend who she pretty much waited until she could no longer ignore the bump in the room and her direct manager, also a woman, said to her congratulations, you just ruined your career. Woman said to her congratulations, you just ruined your career. When she said hey, listen, I'm I'm pregnant and you know I'm gonna need to go out on leave.

Karen McFarlane:

incredibly demoralizing that is insane when you could create a space that um allows people to come out earlier with that type of information and feel safe, and then put plans in place to make sure their transition, that work is not disrupted and that welcomes her back when it's time Right and there can be continuity.

Karen McFarlane:

It's just around planning for that, you know, and not hearing that something terrible is going to happen, because that fear creates the domino effect that's ultimately going to affect your business and you're actually placing it on the person who got pregnant, when you can really plan around that. We're smart enough to do those things.

Brittany S. Hale:

We just choose not to. We live in the future, right, we have technology. I mean, I've spoken to senior leaders, incredible women, who expressed fear and anxiety about updating their headshots because they're I don't want to look older, right? Or it was a huge leap for them to say, oh my gosh, this is my first time that I'm, you know, posting a headshot and I have silver hair now, and some of them have, you know, embraced it fiercely. But these are not the same considerations that men who may update it. And he's a silver fox right, and wow, he's so accomplished. And we look at him. We don't say, oh my gosh, this old guy right. We look and we say, oh, wow, he's distinguished, he's accomplished, he's got a lot going on. Look, and we say, oh, wow, he's distinguished, he's accomplished, he's got a lot going on. Um, but unfortunately, women do not receive that same grace. You know you kind of. We look and we see, oh my gosh, is she, you know, and her best days behind her and we as women judge too, right.

Karen McFarlane:

So, yep, not just judging women, um, but women are judging women, and I think it starts with women really just embrace, helping to embrace who we are and to try to, you know, break through all of that nonsense, because if we're waiting for somebody else to do it, we're going to be waiting forever. Right, and you know Black women need to do it. White women need to do it. Right, and you know black women need to do it. White women need to do it. Whatever, all of us need to do that and really stand for our true values.

Karen McFarlane:

I mean, there's not enough of us in general, when we talk about women in general that are in positions of power, right. So, again, talking about that upliftment that needs to come through, and then when you break that down, you know it's even less for Black women, right, and what we started to see is because, you know, again, we have this Black ambition that's not being supported in the workplace, right, and for many different reasons the competition, the threat, that whole concept of pet to threat, where you have these great mentors that are supporting you through your trajectory, but the minute you become successful, they kind of back off and leave you hanging right, this rush to put Black women in positions, but not, you know, put the scaffolding and support systems in place right. And now we have these hidden biases right that are affecting everything. What it's now leading to is women leaving, particularly black women leaving the workforce right, yeah, I mean entrepreneurs and I, I know you're seeing that yes, absolutely.

Brittany S. Hale:

I think we both, you know, realized that there were other opportunities because the traditional route was not aligned with our, the problems that we sought to solve, um, and our self-concept right, and it's just an opportunity to say, okay, well, if not this, what else?

Karen McFarlane:

Yeah, I mean I left corporate America very early on because, quite frankly, I don't think that. No, I don't think people did not think of me as smart or as smart as they wouldn't give me credit for my work, for credit for being intelligent, um, and I did something that surpassed expectations. It was always downplayed and so, um, that just became increasingly frustrating to me because it's like what more do I have to do? Why do I constantly have to prove my worth, right, right and worse, I have to prove it to the people who are in control of my paycheck or deciding yes more money or can obtain more wealth and create the generational wealth that I want to obtain.

Karen McFarlane:

And I didn't like being out um not in control of that and at the whim of somebody else's like subjective opinion about um, and so I decided to leave and go out on my own because I felt like I can control my own destiny. And you know, through consultative work, actually you're hired to be the expert, to be the smart, intelligent person in the room.

Karen McFarlane:

So, I could lean on that and build on that and build that brand around myself. So but it was a shame that. That's why I did it, because in part because of that, I mean, I learned, I loved it. I loved being able to use my acumen and and and and my smarts and my ability to adapt and all that good stuff. Cause I could do it, it was natural for me right, but people didn't believe that I could and regulated my abilities Right, so I had to unleash that myself.

Karen McFarlane:

But I see that more and more women are having to do that and it's a tremendous loss to the general workforce. It's a great gain to entrepreneurism, right. Yeah, yeah.

Brittany S. Hale:

There does have to be balance. There does have to be balance because, um, entrepreneurship it is a long, lonely, frustrating, amazing, terrifying, incredibly rewarding, incredibly debilitating journey. Right, if you have as many ups and downs and, um, yet, and still, we still need people. There are people who are not interested in entrepreneurship but also need to understand a pathway forward. Right, we need people on all sides. And even the entrepreneurs who are building, you know, the enterprise organizations of tomorrow. They need to remember, as you're building your teams, as you're building your businesses, remember why you started it. You know you can't why you started it. You know you can't, you can't forget your experience and seek to create an environment that just provides that trauma for someone else.

Karen McFarlane:

Absolutely, absolutely. We need to stop this, this, this, I don't know, it's an. It feels like an endless loop, you know. Disrupt it, you know, and provide those support systems. And it relates directly to something we talked about before around, you know, this attack on I'm just going to call it an attack on Black people through that organization that is, you know, now suing, you know, the Venture Capital Fund, the Fearless Fund, now going after diversity fellowship programs, specifically for legal right and it seems, to be salt and you, you know, it's just saddens me, it's maddening at the same time, and I just want to encourage corporations to really pay attention.

Karen McFarlane:

Yep, and you know, don't be frightened. Use your, uh, your money, use your dollars and invest in solutions, whether that's lobbying and fighting, you know, for, um, you know, obviously, social justice, but also all the other things you're doing. They're doing internally, you know, because it's really important that we don't. Yes, this, this grout, anyway, mic drop. Yeah, well, there you go. Always so much fun, we always have these deep conversations, but, um, you know, until next time we'll find something. There's always something going on in this world for us to talk about absolutely.

Brittany S. Hale:

That is the one constant. As soon as I saw the the article about the firms, I was like, well, it's right on time.

Karen McFarlane:

We'll dig into that in the future. Yes, exactly.

Brittany S. Hale:

So until next time. Be well, Right, you too. See you soon.