The E Word

Has Marketing Leadership Truly Achieved Gender Parity?

• Karen McFarlane and Brittany S. Hale • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Discover how the landscape of marketing leadership is being reshaped with a historic shift towards female empowerment, as we examine what it really means to hold power and influence in this competitive industry. Celebrations may be in order for the rise of women to 51% of Chief Marketing Officer roles, but we peel back the veneer to question the equity within this progress, particularly when juxtaposed with the staggering statistic that only 1% of agency owners are female. We probe into the depths of representation disparities, from creative directors to the highest echelons of advertising, to understand the full picture of gender parity in the marketing realm.

The fabric of brand loyalty is woven with threads of respect and trust, but what happens when these are tested in the court of law and public opinion? We scrutinize a contentious lawsuit that challenges brand values and inclusivity, as Hello Alice and Progressive Insurance face accusations of discrimination for their commitment to supporting Black-owned businesses. This segment navigates the treacherous waters of consumer expectations and the ethical responsibilities businesses must shoulder in an age where every action is scrutinized, shaping narratives around inclusivity and integrity.

Finally, we confront the raw, uncomfortable truths of systemic racism and privilege that cast long shadows over business funding and opportunity. Through the lens of recent legal actions against initiatives like the Fearless Fund's grants for Black women business owners, we challenge the status quo and invite introspection on the role of institutional power in perpetuating economic disparities. By dissecting the dynamics of racism and the misuse of legal precedent, we uncover the need for intentional action against systemic barriers, urging listeners to recognize the importance of dismantling these walls for a more equitable society. Join us in these deep conversations, where the pursuit of true freedom and equity remains our unwavering goal.

Continuing Education

  1. How to Effectively — and Legally — Use Racial Data for DEI
  2. After history of discrimination, these federal contractors fought to hide diversity data
  3. Why better reporting on racial and ethnic equity can improve diversity and inclusion outcomes

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Brittany S. Hale:

What's the E-Word? It's the E in DEI that everyone ignores, but we're here to bring it to the forefront.

Karen McFarlane:

Welcome to the E-Word hey britney, hey karen, how are you? I'm good, how are you, how have you been?

Brittany S. Hale:

I am, I'm doing well, you know, as usual, it's a lot Everything. What was it? Everything everywhere all at once, that's how it is right now, so we'll take it right.

Karen McFarlane:

We'll take it. That's why we're here on the E-word, right, because we need everything everywhere, well, all at once. Doesn't start with the E, but whatever, right.

Brittany S. Hale:

But at least when it comes to equity, you're completely right.

Karen McFarlane:

There you go, there you go. So what's up in the world today? What you got for me.

Brittany S. Hale:

There's a lot going on. We see that there's a continued wave of lawsuits. Wave of lawsuits. We see that hello alice was recently sued for providing grants to women of color specifically, uh, black women, I believe, black founders, uh, in general. But there was something in in your world, the wide world of marketing, that I wanted to get your opinion on. So, according to female quotient, for the first time ever, women represent 51% of CMOs. It says that in advertising, women represent 60% of the workforce, yet only 30% of the executives. We see women at 35.3% of creative directors, 19.1% of commercial directors and only 1% of agency owners. I don't know what is involved with most of these roles. So I figured. Why not ask my CMO extraordinaire podcast partner in chief, erin, about this? What's happening in the world of marketing?

Karen McFarlane:

All right, wait now. You hit me with a lot of numbers, so we're gonna have to go through them one by one. Okay, so 51% of of cmos are women for the first time ever 51 of cmos are women for the first time ever.

Karen McFarlane:

Yeah, okay, all right, I'm also writing this down, because my memory sometimes fades, so, actually. So that's fantastic news, all right. So, yay, do we know how they're qualifying the role? Cmo, though, is like? Does it say it's a CMO of a certain size company, or they quantify it by revenue, or they just say CMO, which is fine. Just want to know this distinction.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yeah, excellent question. The information I'm pulling up does not quantify the CMO role or provide additional information. They just say CMO Okay.

Karen McFarlane:

Well, that's excellent news that we are more than 50%. We're not even 49%, we're 51%. It actually, in some ways, though, is not as surprising. I mean, it's like what it should be, because, although I don't have the stats like right at the top of my top of my mind, you know from what I see through, especially through a lot of my work at the American Marketing Association, is that it is very female heavy right in general, as a matter of fact, particularly within AMA, in the circles that I've run in, and I would say this is true for every chapter or every sector of the world. But you know, men definitely skew on this. You know smaller side in terms of numbers. So that would make sense that if we are the majority in a particular field, that we would be the majority in that type, in that level role. So my question would be like yes, 51% is great for the ratio, the real ratio. Let's have to do a little bit of digging, is it really?

Karen McFarlane:

great know right, but I'm always happy to see women ascend um, and you know, I think marketing is one of the most important professions out there because of its influence on society.

Brittany S. Hale:

So, uh, the more women influencing society, right, is a positive the better, right, we're more than half the world's population, exactly, girl power man. That would make sense, absolutely, absolutely. I mean when I, when I read this and seeing one percent of agency owners, I just immediately thought of, like Don Draper and the rest of the team, you know, standing around thinking about what people want to see, and then I just wondered well, okay, yes, that was a long time ago, but how much have we updated that, right? Do we still have a bunch of men standing around?

Karen McFarlane:

Well, it sounds like you know, if it's only 1%, that's the other spectrum that you said. One percent of women are agency owners, right? So I just have to write that down because I'm not there. Absolutely, that's abysmal, like absolutely abysmal, that just let's just flip it. So that means 99, roughly right. There's other other. I don't know how they're measuring in terms of like, are they just doing women, female? You know how the identifications. But well, suffice it to say that the majority of the rest, yes, are run by men are, well, well, cmos or agency, so agency owners. So the majority of the men are agency owners.

Karen McFarlane:

So what does that say about? Again, marketing's role and impact on society is primarily, from that point of view, depending on how these male agency owners run their business. Right, again, I think size is also important. I know that information is not there, but, you know, it'd be interesting to dig into that data and really understand. In terms of, like, large agencies, small agencies Again, this is guesswork, but smaller organizations tend to, as we see some trends, they're primarily owned by women, right, or started up by women, but they don't have the capital, the funding, to grow their businesses in the same way as men, so that doesn't really help their plight in the long run. What were the other stats you gave me?

Brittany S. Hale:

Interesting. Yeah, so there are. Let's see 60% of women, or women represent 60% of the workforce in advertising, yet only 30% are executives, mm-hmm. And we see that 35.3% are creative directors and 19.1% of commercial directors are women okay.

Karen McFarlane:

Well, I would argue to your earlier point, which is we are half of the population, right that we need to be representative of the population that we serve. So, while these numbers can be twisted to say, hey, we're 60% of the women in the workforce in advertising, well, that's great, that's more than half of the population, theoretically right. So plus one on that. But we're not in positions of power. At the same rate, we're not in charge of creative at the same rate, right. And 19.1 percent is just abysmal. It's so far from 50 percent right for the commercial director positions that there's a lot of work to do. Yeah, and when you don't have the right representation in terms of half the population in the room, like what are you missing?

Brittany S. Hale:

Interesting question. What are you missing?

Karen McFarlane:

I mean, let's just flip it for a second. For a second, not a man, right, I don't know what it means to be one. I think I was, maybe, you know, just a couple of years ago, I realized, like belt buckles were different, like how they close for men, or the, or the, the, how the shirts close, like these are I don't even know why, right, I don't even know like that's weird, kept it moving. You know, I don't know, um, intuitively. You know the way that men think, or how they approach, how they approach life, or how they think about, um, just their careers or whatever aspect of life that they're engaging in, right, there's a different approach.

Karen McFarlane:

I know, when I talk to my male friends, right, I, I'm always like blown away by how their mind works and they're always confused by how mine works, right, so there's that disconnect and I just don't get it and I think it's hard, and, at least for me, I feel like it's just hard to get because it's a fundamental way of thinking and it's I'm not saying every man thinks the same way, but there's a lot of similarities that I don't know that I will ever intuitively understand.

Karen McFarlane:

I can listen to those stories, right, and I can experience some of it, but I'm never really sitting in those shoes.

Karen McFarlane:

So, you know, depends on how good I am at listening right and experiencing and infusing that information into whatever I'm putting out into the world. But I know that it's never going to be the same as being that person, and so we need people around us that have those experiences, whether it's being male, female, you know, black, latina, whatever it is right, whatever religion it is, I'm never going to understand fully by reading a book, right, something that's innately part of your soul. So I think that's really the danger of not having the right representation in the room and why it's really important, especially for marketing teams and creative teams who have so much influence over people's psyche from television commercials, film, from average, all types of advertising, the things that evoke emotion in us, right and just to act. If we're evoking the wrong emotions with the wrong types of messages, it has more damage than what we intended. We want a transaction, but we're really responsible for how people feel and we have to step up and really think about how we interact with the world in a more meaningful way.

Brittany S. Hale:

So you said something you know about being responsible for how people feel, and we know that feelings are inherently by nature and need to be so subjective. Right, they're subjective, they're ephemeral, they're, they come and go. Right, and it seems that, at least from the outside and through my experience, because you know my, my doorman will tell you that I am an avid consumer of a lot of things based on the packages that come here. But you know, we, we do have. You know, as human beings, we're equipped with feelings and we have emotional responses to intangible things, to the belief about products.

Brittany S. Hale:

Right, we all can remember, or maybe even smell, the type of laundry detergent our family used when we were little. We can taste the bread. Or you know the when you maybe you had a peanut butter and jelly going growing up. Right, whether it was creamy or chunky. Or you know whether you use strawberry jam or grape jam or jelly. Right, all of these things create our experience and we attach very, very strong feelings to as you put transactions right and and you brought up a an important part, which is the responsibility. Right, what do we owe consumers? What do we owe one another in business? Um, I think, when we're talking about question the question of equity and and equity's place and role within leadership within an organization. That's the question that comes to a head every time. Right, what do we owe one another?

Karen McFarlane:

listen. I think I can answer that really simply. I think we owe one another respect, right, and that respect comes in many forms, but the path to that is equity, right. It's it's thinking about what's important to your buyer, to your staff, to the people around you, right? Like we're human beings that deserve respect and it is our responsibility to deliver it.

Karen McFarlane:

I'm not saying there's some people that you know maybe don't deserve it because of some of the things that they do, but you eventually, no matter what problems you have, you have't deserve it because of some of the things that they do, but you eventually, no matter what problems you have, you have to come back to that central point.

Karen McFarlane:

And so we, as brands, marketers, you know companies and individuals we need to think about how we build that connection. And if you are truly respecting your buyer, you want to understand them and you want them to have that emotional reaction that is authentic and genuine to your product. And, of course, you want your product to deliver for them so that they're not disappointed and maintain that mutual respect, that respect for you and what you're, you know, selling to them, and that's how you build that overall brand loyalty, right. Because, if we just take it out of the company structure right, and we just think about this. Everything is person to person to some degree, right. So in order to set that respect, you have to build trust right and there's reciprocity in that and we need that on an individual basis and we, you know, on a micro level, we need that on a macro level as well. So that's what I think our responsibility is. Every company needs to define it specifically.

Brittany S. Hale:

I love the idea of that, of weighing the balance of what you want people to feel and how you want them to engage with you. And I'm going to do a soft pivot toward toward the the legal, but still related to the sense of what we owe one another and and how we want consumers to feel. Yeah, because ostensibly we want them to feel warm or positive feelings and have this relationship with the brand enough that they return right. We don't want them to have one engagement and say no, thank you. We want them to build a memory, build an emotion around us. So we keep coming back time and time and time, again, again. But now I'm curious to know what happens when you, perhaps unintentionally, create a negative feeling and how companies can weigh the balance.

Brittany S. Hale:

So two days ago there was a lawsuit filed. Well, it hit the news. The lawsuit was actually filed in August in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Ohio, the Eastern Division, by America First Legal. Now this is an organization it is a conservative organization that is accusing Hello Alice, accusing Hello Alice, which is a small business resource company and the lesser known party in the lawsuit, progressive Insurance. So they're accusing Hello Alice and Progressive partner together because Progressive Insurance is driving small business forward fund program, which is a fund program that offers grants to Black business owners. America First Legal is accusing this fund program of unlawful discrimination because non-Black owned small businesses were not allowed to apply.

Brittany S. Hale:

Now the lawsuit does list an Ohio resident. We can edit his name out if we don't want to use it, but this is Nathan Roberts, who owns a trucking dispatch company, freedom Truck Dispatch, and he says that he is a customer of Progressive, that he received an email that uplifted the application for the grant and Progressive is offering 10 grants of $25,000 each to Black-owned small business owners to be put toward purchasing a commercial vehicle. So Nathan, who is not Black, decided to fill out the application and ups got to the end where it specified that it was for Black business owners. Unclear is whether or not it was listed in the email. I I'm going to hazard a guess that it was, but you know right that's a fact-finding excursion for the attorneys to to go through.

Brittany S. Hale:

I'm gonna, I'm gonna tag them in. Now you, hello Alice is doubling down right and they. You look on social media and they say Hello Alice is being sued for our commitment to small business. And they are using the hashtag, which I think is a genius. But you tell me, from a marketing perspective hashtag elevate the American dream. Now they say Hello Alice is being sued for our commitment to small business owners like you, stand with us to hashtag elevate the American dream and lift up small businesses to protect them from getting targeted and losing their funding. Over 5 million small businesses start each year in the United States. In honor of that, nominate five small businesses for the American Dream Awards and grant program by following the link in our bio.

Brittany S. Hale:

Now Hello Alice's co-founders, both of whom are white women. They sent a statement on behalf of the co-founder, elizabeth Gore. She sent a statement on behalf of herself and other executives and they're defending their efforts right to help small, minority-owned businesses. And they said you know, our values are not gentle-sounding euphemisms. These are the pillars upon which we built Hello Alice and guide our mission to drive capital, connections and opportunities into the hand of small business owners.

Brittany S. Hale:

Now American First Legal is saying well, this is offensive to the American ideal. It says all Americans deserve to be free from racial discrimination. Now America First Legal is saying that they're aligned against quote, quote an unholy alliance of corrupt special interests, big tech titans, the fake news media and liberal washington politicians. So they are doubling down on you know partisan politics to fuel their arguments. Um, with your support, we will oppose the radical left's anti-jobs, anti-freedom, anti-faith, anti-borders, anti-police and anti-American crusade. It's pretty intense, but they've reported contributions and grants of nearly $6.8 million in 2021. So giving you a lot of information there.

Brittany S. Hale:

The article does not share anything about progressive or whether progressive has issued a statement, but I'm really really curious. Back to the point about who you want to, who you want to attract right progressive, I would imagine. Recognize that they had enough small businesses, that they were ensuring enough you know black business owners that they were ensuring that this could be advantageous for the business. And partnering again with hello alice, which is renowned for providing opportunity for business owners through a number of grants and partnerships of you know all different backgrounds. They have grant opportunities for tons of different people, but again, hello Alice is very clear in their values and again, because values are inclusive, they're evergreen, they're aspirational, they're saying, nope, this is what we're doing. I'm curious to know what's your response to this, especially through the lens of what business owners owe to their consumers and the feelings that we we need to be cognizant of.

Karen McFarlane:

First of all, I have so many feelings.

Brittany S. Hale:

Can we talk about our own feelings? Those are welcome too. Can I ask?

Karen McFarlane:

that first, you know, and we talked about the fearless fund. Uh, and I think since that we talked about that, there's been more developments where I think it was a few days ago, unless something else happened after that, but where a judge did block the fearless fund from issuing the grants, um, to the, you know, black women business owners, on the grounds of something around the Civil Rights Act, which is just so infuriating because that's just not in the spirit of what that was created for, right, it was meant to right some wrongs. Where, you know, it's like, I guess, what my issue is. It's as if all of history didn't happen, where everything was really based on race in terms of, like, preventing people from having economic, preventing Black people from having economic freedom for so long, right, and with no cure. With no cure, and any attempt to cure that wrong is met with vitriol, and it's so again.

Karen McFarlane:

It's so infuriating that we're going to continue to use our power and privilege and I'm not saying ours, black people right, that those who are not people of color right To use their power and privilege to continue stamping down that economic freedom, when there are so many other opportunities open to you and the can of worms it opens on so many fronts. So I'm going to hazard a guess, although I'm sure that American First Legal was probably probably started a lot of work on this already. But this emboldened them and it's going to embolden other groups and other lawsuits to come forward to challenge any type of program that is meant to cure the ills that were created against Black Americans.

Brittany S. Hale:

And not just created right but continue to. They're salient, they're pervasive in setting the norm for what business leaders look like, for what a successful business looks like, for who's able to access business funding right.

Karen McFarlane:

All of these things are still impacting things today it's and and it's a pandora's box, because if we even like the another first thing that I mean there's so many things but another thing that you know just feels very related is okay, we just have the affirmative action struck down. Um, there's those diversity fellowships now, there's these bc funds, but also, like, what about just college scholarships? Right, that are sometimes based on certain attributes, yeah, and it's interesting that we're just focusing on race, like, wouldn't the same arguments apply? Apply then to gender or ability or, you know, sexual orientation, whatever? Like what would it say?

Karen McFarlane:

Oh, let's just, let's just get real ridiculous. Oh, this scholarship is for an art student, but I don't do art, but I should be able to be eligible for that. You know, that's correct. We're getting type of situation and it's just ridiculous. And and this is what's really interesting about the legal system and I this is from my layman's point of view, so you should totally correct me is that it's never really looking at the big picture, right, it's this one man in Ohio that felt aggrieved and there's a more theoretically, the more strategic vision, but it's too late, because all of these individual small things that we're just looking at a microcosm of the universe, has set a precedent that now you know everyone needs to look at as like this norm against some bigger vision, and then they come with no solutions.

Brittany S. Hale:

And this is, this is the, this is the part. Right, there's no solution. So we, and two things can't be true. Right, because the first, we want to ignore the existence of systemic barriers and or oppression. Right, and we want to advance the belief that there's equal opportunity. Right, land of the free, home of the brave. Right, equal opportunity for all, all is defined very differently.

Karen McFarlane:

New definition of it, right.

Brittany S. Hale:

However, there's the. We're going to ignore the malady and focus on the treatment, right? We're going to ignore the systemic barriers and we're going to focus on obstructing the solutions developed to address the systemic barriers, which is based in quantifiable fact, right? Most organizations. You can see that there are reports when it comes to who gets the most venture capital funding. Who gets the most venture capital funding? Who gets the most, you know, debt equity funding? Who? Who receives these loans?

Brittany S. Hale:

And, ostensibly, nathan had a better chance of going down to a credit union or going to a bank to receive a loan for his small business. Yeah, because of his background, right, because he fits within the group for whom these systemic barriers were erected. Right, but he's decided to focus his efforts in this space. Now, my question would be how many other grants did Nathan apply to? Right? How many other grants has Nathan been rejected from? How many other grants for commercial vehicles has he truly exhausted any and all opportunities for funding, such that this grant is the only grant available to him for funding and he's being denied access to opportunity for the black entrepreneurs who need commercial vehicles. That is what's happening, right? That is their reality.

Karen McFarlane:

I mean it's like can we just like remove all the PC part for a moment? It's like okay, so like, so, like wait. Like you just said, there's so many other opportunities for you, but you're gonna focus on this one, because what you can't get it right, like what made you think that you, what makes you believe that you should be in that space?

Brittany S. Hale:

should, yes, should, and I titled correct and my my therapist always said you know, anytime I start to go a little bit left, uh, she brings me right and says you know you're shooting all over yourself because because should is a cognitive distortion. So this idea that you should have access to this funding, that this access is owed to you first.

Karen McFarlane:

I mean that, right, there is the end. All be all of it for me. And maybe something's wrong with me, because if I were to see that grant and it said for Latina people, latino people, right, I would be like, oh, that's not for me. I might be like, dang, I wish I could get it right, but I'm not gonna sit there and fill out the application, okay, because it's specifically saying that's not for me.

Karen McFarlane:

As I say this, out and that's not true to your identity, and that's okay, right but as I sit here and say that out loud, right, you know, it's flashing in my mind, mostly because I was at this hotel in DC last week, and it's the Eaton DC hotel, which is really cool, eclectic.

Karen McFarlane:

I love that place right and in the and in the hallway by the elevator there's a sign. Actually I didn't pay attention to it. My son came with me and he took a picture of it. He said did you know this was here and it has a for whites only sign right there. And it's just a throwback sign, right yeah. And when I said that out loud about I shouldn't apply to the grant that's for Latino business owners, that just flashed in my mind real quick, because you know the whites only, blacks only. That means I shouldn't drink at the whites only fountain or whatever. And I'm wondering if that was like a little ingrained. I don't know because it flashed up in my mind, but for someone who didn't have those barriers, when there's a barrier there, they don't either see it or they think it doesn't apply to them where it's almost a reflexive, an instinctual challenge.

Brittany S. Hale:

Right, well, who are you?

Brittany S. Hale:

I set the door yeah, right everything has told me that I set the norm and and a key component of power. Power is your ability to create the environment and set the terms within that environment. Yeah, yeah, so I? You can't tell me that I'm not allowed to apply for this because I this is a these systemic barriers, have you know? Maybe Toni Morrison would say it's imprisoned you, but you know it's, it's protected me, it's protected me and it's allowed me to move through the world with a belief, however true or not, in my palate, in my power, in my ability to create the, the rules of engagement within any environment I choose to enter.

Karen McFarlane:

Yes, yes, whether that's the environment meant for me or not, yes, because all environments are meant for them, because they created it, so they can. They can break the barrier if they want to. Right, I put the fence up. I could take the fence down, but it's not your fence. So if you do it, if you come around, it is your problem, but it's my fence. I can do what I want.

Karen McFarlane:

Um, that's, that's so insane and so true what you said, and I think, at the end of the day, that's what it is. That is exactly what's happening in America. That's exactly what's happening in America. That's exactly what's happening with Nathan Brown, with Edward Bloom, with all these people. You know, yeah, and I think it's up to obviously, us as individuals. You know us, meaning the collective, us in this world, but also brands, corporations. They have a really important role because they have that, um, power and influence.

Karen McFarlane:

Right, and that's where you need to. You need to use that to right these wrongs there are. You know, you have a lobbyist. You need to show up now and challenge these ideals and even if right, the laws say one thing what are your philosophies, what are your values? How are you going to take a fresh look at them or tweak like what? How are you going to adjust your systems to ensure that you are still reflective of the population, of the customers that you currently serve and the ones that you want to serve, the ones that you should be serving, right? How are you still going to do that? Because, as we said at the beginning, this is about, in many ways, it's about still a transaction. I mean, there's a means to an end, but at the end of the day, you need that transaction. So if you're all about the money, you never let law stop you from making your money before right.

Brittany S. Hale:

Correct and there's a even if this were to to go through and they say, okay, you know, we need to open the grant up to everyone. There's no guarantee that nathan and receives the 25 000 that's true, he could apply and still live out, right, and then you don't get to.

Brittany S. Hale:

Are you going to sue for that? And? And that leads to my next point, which is I want to delve a little bit deeper into power, because there's there's two types of power broadly, and I just really want quickly want to mention that there's institutional power, right, that's where, again, you have, if we're talking about setting the stage, controlling the environment, that's when you are able to control education, banks, culture, right, the framework for decision-making, how we interact with one another. It's your ability to set the goals, create opportunity, right, and establish the rules of engagement by which people can advance or be delayed or deterred. Yeah. But then you also have personal power, and that's where you want to control others for your own personal gratification.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yep, and what I? What we see here is a conflation between an attempt to usurp institutional power for the advancement of personal power yep, nathan wishes to weaponize the court system and the use of precedent. Right, what happened before is you know how we're going to decide things going forward? Nathan wants to weaponize the institutional power of the legal system to control others for his own personal gratification, which is why, again, this lawsuit is moot. Most compelling candidate, nathan could still lose to a Black business owner and has no right to the $25,000 for a commercial vehicle.

Karen McFarlane:

Although he may still feel so, feel like he should, and that's because feelings are subjective and not based on logic.

Brittany S. Hale:

right yeah, and Nathan's shooting all over himself you know like that that's what's happening.

Karen McFarlane:

That's a personal I love that shooting all over himself. I love that and so that is right.

Brittany S. Hale:

This, this idea and this is something that I, you know, to leaders listening, no-transcript to have a little bit of introspection, to ask okay, am I do? I believe I'm better than X person. If so, why? What is that grounded in? Right? And also, is there a driving need? Once you really kind of take a few moments, get really quiet with yourself and ask you know, why is this bothering me? What's happening here? Is there a few moments, get really quiet with yourself and ask you know, why is this bothering me? What's happening here? Is there a need to to put someone in their place?

Brittany S. Hale:

That's personal power. That's a personal power issue. Right? That's not the desire to establish, establish an environment to further an organizational goal. Right, you know, nathan doesn't really care about making sure that everyone has access to commercial vehicles, because then he could say, you know, oh well, you know, let's say there's 30 trucking companies in Ohio, this should be focused. You know, a's say there's 30 trucking companies in Ohio, this should be focused. You know, a specific amount of these grants should go to people in Ohio, because there's so many people here and I am one of them, and this is how, this is what we should do, right, right. Nathan is deeply rooted in his personal power because Nathan believes he is better than Black business owners and he needs to put Progressive and Hello Alice in their place. Perhaps he sees the email. He's infuriated, right? How dare I be. I'm going to put them in their place and I am going to advance this lawsuit and have myself named as a party of this lawsuit.

Karen McFarlane:

There's also privilege in being able to do that right, correct, whatever, but america first, legal is this entity, and they're happy to bring along these aggrieved people into their sphere and and use them or leverage them to further a broader agenda.

Karen McFarlane:

So I hope nathan knows that, while he's obviously trying to advance his own cause and listen, I don't. I don't think that people are sitting around thinking about the greater good all the time. They're really focused on their. We as human beings are very selfish, um, but you have to take a step back and see what kind of harm you're creating in being selfish, you know. But he's also more than likely being used by this legal team, um, in many different ways. He may be cool with that, he may not know about that, but it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, he's now part of it. You know, part of a greater harm that's being created which has sweeping implications, and so I think that anyone who's thinking about this type of stuff needs to again think beyond themselves, as you just kind of pointed out and again it's about I'm going to circle back to the respect.

Karen McFarlane:

Right, it's also respect of your community. I know most people are first and foremost focused on themselves and their family, right? That's probably I don't know 50, 60, 70% of what they're, maybe 90% of what they're working on, but there's some percentage that extends beyond you and you need to think long and hard about that. And the only other point that I want to make for the people who are saying well, isn't it racism? Isn't it racism, right? Yeah?

Brittany S. Hale:

For Black business owners or Latino business owners, or whatever, whatever group you know.

Karen McFarlane:

But as we focus on race, like because I want to say and it is my answer to that and I'd love to hear your answer to that is you know again, if we go back to you, know why these ills need to be cured?

Karen McFarlane:

In the simplest of terms is, if you are a group that has the power and privilege to change the lives, right, literally change the lives of another group and you actively use that against them, then that is the act of racism in some simplistic terms. That is the act of racism in some simplistic terms. So you know, white people at that top of that chain have done that for centuries, right, they've used their power and privilege to upend civilizations, prevent people from progressing, prevent economic freedoms for different groups to imprison to whatever right. I mean these are facts. Prevent economic freedoms for different groups to imprison to whatever right. I mean these are facts. Um, other groups don't have that same power and privilege, and so it can't be racism on the flip side if you, if the power and the privilege are not there. So I think that's how I would kind of talk about it, but I'd love to hear how you would answer that question. You know, isn't it racism?

Brittany S. Hale:

yeah, um, you put that so beautifully. I don't know if there's anything else that I can add to it. Uh, I'll stammer my way through and try to make sense of what's going on in my brain, because the synapses are firing. Um, what I will say is I'll bring it back to the cause and the cure. Yeah, right, we are a person witnessing the cure will then say, hey, this is discriminatory, right, I will take it back to whoever's listening.

Brittany S. Hale:

If you had siblings, imagine your siblings. And if you don't, imagine you had a sibling, right, and you're, you're young, and after dinner you see them get that bright bubble gum, pink syrup, and it's nearly fluorescent. It smells like bubble gum. You know this. Your siblings, oh, they love taking it every time after dinner and you don't get to have any. Right, you are going to feel aggrieved, right? This is experiencing that you are not right. Let's say you, you bundled up, you listen to you, your your caretaker, you put on your hat and gloves and mittens and scarf, and all of that. You didn't let people cough in your face. Your sibling, your sibling, you know, had others cough in their face, whether they wanted to or not they're they're dealing with.

Brittany S. Hale:

You know a sickness, right, and they're now receiving the cure for that, and it's going to take time for them to get to the point where they feel or they're experiencing health in the way that you are, right, right, right, their nose isn't stuffy, your nose isn't stuffy, you're not congested, you know you're. You're not dealing with rib and coughs, right, your back doesn't hurt from having to deal with this illness, yeah, but you see the bubblegum pink medicine and you want it right. Unfair in in the most rudimentary way. That is my response to racism. We are now in a space where we're willing to more openly have discussions about a racial reckoning or creating opportunities to rectify long-standing systems, and it is a privilege to witness it. And if you feel it's unfair, unfair, it's probably because you're receiving a privilege, it's probably because you haven't received, you haven't had to feel that, yeah, in a particular way. And I understand there are people listening who will say well, I didn't grow up rich right or I.

Brittany S. Hale:

My family was poor and they were struggling, and all of this. I grew up in a neighborhood around you know of this. I grew up in a neighborhood around you know people of color. I grew up in a neighborhood, perhaps, that was under-resourced, you know. Whatever it is, the point is is, when you have the ability to determine the terms of your environment, the terms of your environment, you're able to right Right, you're able to yeah, okay, and that is that's the difference is you have the ability, you, you, the the freedom, right, to navigate these spaces.

Brittany S. Hale:

There are people who have built themselves up from poverty. There are business leaders who you know are male, right, white males, who did not grow up in wealth but were able to accumulate it. But the ability to perceive potential in them, the ability to extend them opportunities because there's an inherent trust in them, you trust that they are competent. You trust that if you invest your money with them, you'll receive returns in excess of what you've given. You trust, if they are taking a chance, that it's well calculated.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yep, because institutional power has erected barriers that allow for us, in advertising as well, right, that allow for us to conceive a brilliant business leadership, to look a particular way. Yep, that is the difference when we're dealing with racism. Racism is you. Can we have people who say, oh, ramen, profitability, right, I ate ramen for six months, you know, and I didn't spend any money on anything that was not a necessity, as a young white male, and I did a pitch, and I pitched an idea and I received 20 million dollars yeah and I was able to act on that right, right and it's almost cavalier.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yeah, no, I was talking to this guy. I was able to get the meeting because somebody believed in my potential. You know, they didn't need to see a deck. They, they, they trusted enough in my ability. They got a meeting. They knew who to go, they got a. They got a meeting. They were able to only eat ramen. They didn't have to worry about anybody else in the household, right. They didn't have to worry about child care or elder care or parents medications, right.

Brittany S. Hale:

Student loans, disabilities you could go to your family and friend and do a family and friends raise and get 75 000, which for other founders, is more than many of their friends and family make in a year right right, and despite their business success, despite the traction, despite the numbers, despite their cap tables right, they are able to they're unable to get into those rooms to have those conversations, to have someone take a because of because they lack power right, power, and they don't look like. They don't look like who we think of when we think of a powerful person.

Karen McFarlane:

Yeah, that's racism yeah, yeah, period, period, period with a T.

Brittany S. Hale:

Period with a T and a period in bowls.

Karen McFarlane:

I think we should end it with the period with a T in bowl right there.

Brittany S. Hale:

Let's do it. Let's do it.

Karen McFarlane:

But it's always like a super cool conversation. I know we get deep into this, but you know what the world always gives us this stuff to talk about. So until the world stops giving us this stuff to talk about. I think we're gonna be here for a while that's, that's freedom.

Brittany S. Hale:

When we are respectively retired, when we have nothing, when we look around we say it's all good, that's fair. What an equitably made decision. It makes sense.

Karen McFarlane:

I love it Until then. Until then, we got our job cut out for us, so until then join us on the e-word bye.