The E Word

Why does Kamala Harris have us HOPE-SCROLLING for inclusivity and representation?

• Karen McFarlane and Brittany S. Hale • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Imagine the powerful combination of Kamala Harris' diverse heritage and her historic nomination as the presumptive Democratic nominee for president. Join our celebration of this milestone as we discuss the significance of her candidacy, representing Black, South Asian, Jamaican, and immigrant communities. Hear about the enthusiastic response from voters, especially young people, and witness the overwhelming support from virtual gatherings of people across the country. We also explore the crucial role of allyship and the mobilization of white women in solidarity and action, shedding light on the importance of inclusive representation in the White House, including Harris’ role as a stepmother in a blended family.

What does it take for a woman to be considered "likable" in a leadership role?

Karen & Brittany unpack the societal biases and expectations that women face, often having to strike a balance between professionalism and relatability. They delve into how these standards typically reflect white, heterosexual, stoic male traits and discuss the unfair biases that favor those who fit this mold. Through personal anecdotes, Karen & Brittany highlight the importance of recognizing and correcting our own biases and emphasize that likability should not overshadow competency.

Why is it so difficult for people to see women as competent?

Karen & Brittany confront the persistent issues of gender bias and stereotyping in leadership, focusing on Kamala Harris' experiences. They scrutinize the double standards women face when being authoritative and dissect the damaging narrative that labels Harris as a "DEI hire." These stereotypes not only undermine her qualifications but also perpetuate harmful biases against women of color in leadership positions.

Ending on a hopeful note, Karen & Brittany express our aspirations for a future where diverse leadership is the norm, reflecting the true diversity of the United States and fostering unity and acceptance. This episode is a heartfelt endorsement of diverse leadership and a call to action for more inclusive and fair assessments of talent in the highest offices of the land.

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Karen McFarlane:

Hey Brittany, Hi Karen, how are you? I'm good.

Brittany S. Hale:

How are you doing?

Karen McFarlane:

I am doing well Glad to see you.

Brittany S. Hale:

I'm glad to see you too, and especially now, like it's been a really exciting time lately.

Karen McFarlane:

Typically we record and then immediately after we record something exciting happens. But we recorded and then we had like a week's worth Everything exciting happened that could happen. So please update us.

Brittany S. Hale:

Well, look, you know, Kamala Harris is a presumptive Democratic nominee for president. Ok, and it is so incredibly exciting on so many levels. Level one a woman right, Correct.

Karen McFarlane:

Yes.

Brittany S. Hale:

Awesome Right On so many different levels. And number two, she's a person of color. She represents the black community, she represents the South Asian community.

Brittany S. Hale:

And because I'm Jamaican and I can't let that part go, community because, you know, we claim her no matter what, but she also represents, you know, the immigrant community, right, and just the fact that she is so many things is really truly representative of this country. Yes, so many uh ways. I mean we might like identify in one particular way, but there are many people that can, um, look at kamala and see themselves in her beyond, say, race or ethnicity right, just how accomplished person is and her and her incredible record. Whether you agree with some decisions or not, right, just the fact that this woman has been in elective office and service for so many years and has done some incredible things, many things that none of us will ever touch on.

Brittany S. Hale:

All right, you're a little bit bigger than me, actually, because of your background. So, but how do you feel? How do you feel about it?

Karen McFarlane:

I feel, I feel so, so, so excited. My first time voting for a president, I voted for President Obama. I was an Obama organizing fellow, and so it was this really exciting moment where my individual efforts meant something, you know, and I continued to vote, I continued to be involved and in 2016, I was excited with the idea of voting for a woman. I did vote for a woman, and this time around, to vote for a woman Black woman, south Asian woman, a woman who's a stepmom Black woman, south Asian woman, a woman who's a stepmom. We don't talk about that, but she is a. She's not had children by birth, but by marriage, and we often undercount that. Right, we've, we've seen the vice presidential nominee on the Republican side talk about, you know, these single women with cats and what that means, and so I think about what it means for a blended family to be in the White House. We have that with Joe Biden, and you know First Lady Jill Biden and you know First Lady Jill Biden. But to see it from the other way, right where, where a woman is coming into a family and is warmly welcomed by by that family, I think it's exciting and I just I feel very, very proud.

Karen McFarlane:

You know, I say it all the time, I'm a political optimist. I say it all the time, I'm a political optimist. So I have been. I've been hope scrolling. I've been hope scrolling we hear about doom scrolling but I've been hope scrolling just to see so many people excited, and especially since we're constantly worried about the youth vote. The youth vote is traditionally incredibly low in our country. In fact, our country has some of the lowest voting rates in the world. So to see people who are voting for the first time and have the opportunity to vote for the first time and make history is just. I could go on. I won't, but I'm very excited.

Brittany S. Hale:

It's not just us, right. It's so many people that got excited. What? The first night, 44,000 black women um, when, with black women uh movement? I unfortunately didn't know. I knew what was happening when I was on my way to Manhattan to meet a friend from out of town. So we're having dinner. So I didn't get a chance to be on it, but I absolutely would have been on this. Yeah yeah, I got the text. I was like, oh man.

Karen McFarlane:

I got the text, I sent it out. It was incredible, incredible, to witness that and please keep because we haven't stopped having calls, I would say, just to see women. You know, you think about people like, oh, this person's a celebrity or this person's an executive or whatever. To see everyone just showing up as black women in solidarity with a black woman, with a woman of color, with someone who Is so firm and so committed to protecting our rights as women and our rights as Americans. It like I'm getting chills talking about it, but it was a beautiful, beautiful moment. And I remember getting the text, sending the text to a group chat I'm in with about 20 people and, you know, sending it to every Black woman. I know there's a lot of people and you know for it to be so amazing to the point where, you know people couldn't even get on right. People were like, hey, I'm in the waiting room. You know I was coming back from the airport. So I was like in my car, right, driving, trying to make sure that I got where I was going and could be engaged. It was amazing.

Karen McFarlane:

And then that was followed up with a call for Black men 44,000, was it 45,000? And millions of dollars being raised and that call and we talk a lot about allyship on this podcast we saw that there was a call to white women because we know 53% of white women in 2016 voted for Donald Trump and we know how important that decision was to everyone else afterward. And so Jataka Eddy, who's responsible for the first call, sent out the challenge right, white women, you need to have a call. And Shannon Watts thought on Twitter and I said I wonder if people are going to respond and respond. They did respond.

Karen McFarlane:

They did 130,000, 130,000 white women Come through like this 130,000 white women.

Brittany S. Hale:

One time I was like look white women come through. Like, this is the time Exactly.

Karen McFarlane:

This is the time Exactly All the rights to come out, correct, correct, right. And I sent it to my white ladies, I sent it to the white women that I knew I, you know, show up. Yeah, the white women that I knew I, you know, show up. I know that we were aligned in at least a few things right. Maybe we're all attorneys, or we all went to this school, or we all are invested in protecting reproductive freedom, or we all live in the same state. Whatever, it was the point of connection. You want to be an ally, you want it to be meaningful, show up.

Karen McFarlane:

And from the clips that I've seen I saw a clip of Connie Britton, you know, I've seen. I saw a clip of Pink speaking from her plane, and so I've seen. This is an amazing time just to see we're so focused on how fractured our society is, but to see everybody coming together as Americans and saying, oh, we can do something about this. Oh, oh, this does matter, because that's the common refrain that we hear. It doesn't matter, it's just one vote, it's rigged, it's already decided, we already know how things are going to go. So to see people coming together and having their citizenship mean something.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yeah, nice, it's amazing, it's refreshing, right. Yes, the excitement is that refreshment, right. The fact that you know she was she is sorry VP of the United States as a person of color right, has not protected her in any way. Right, holding the second highest office of this country has not protected her from the vitriol that has started to become pervasive, um in the media and everywhere else because of this excitement in in part two like right scary right, gary, for opposing groups and instead of and the critique record right, it is a personal right on her, which obviously as her laughter.

Karen McFarlane:

She laughs too, she laughs too hard, she is she likableable? We don't talk about these things when it comes to men. I interrupted, but I keep seeing that and I said we're policing joy. We're policing the way that someone expresses joy to have a big, seemingly genuine belly laugh, not that way exactly.

Brittany S. Hale:

You know, it's funny like one of my goals. I actually enjoy this about her, right, because one of my goals is to have a belly laugh on a daily basis. I don't always get there, I'll laugh, but I'm, you know, that guttural, like real joy. That's also healing and in some ways centers you back to your purpose, right it has some spiritual connection.

Brittany S. Hale:

I was watching it was a clip, in all fairness, of her talking to Drew Barrymore on her show about her laugh and she said you know, I just come from a family that these are not her words exactly, but she comes from a family where, you know, the expression of joy is natural and common and women laughed from their gut. That is her norm.

Brittany S. Hale:

That's how she grew up, right, and she and her message was to just be yourself and don't hold yourself back. And of course, we have all these people saying, yeah, hold yourself back, because your laugh is really important to how you run the country. Okay, like Correct, correct, we're going downhill.

Karen McFarlane:

Forget your thoughts on foreign policy. Why are you laughing? Oh, you're showing all 32 too many teeth. Too many teeth, you know?

Karen McFarlane:

Um, and then this concept of likability, which I I think I'm still trying to wrap my head around what that means. What does it mean to be likable? Is it to be palatable? Because it seems to be an ever-moving target, right, what is? There's professional, which we all understand is coded to be as akin to a white, heterosexual male, stoic male as possible. And then there's likable, which has so much complexity as a woman, because to be likable, you have to have a certain amount of facial symmetry, you have to be a certain size, your voice can't be too low or too high. But you know, you have to be serious, but not too serious. You can't be too happy, or else you're a ditz. You have to too happy, or else you're a ditz. You have to. You can smile, but not too much. It'll make you seem as if you're dumb. And so all of these different points, these data points that you're supposed to take in and align yourself with in order to be likable, and it doesn't leave much room to be you.

Brittany S. Hale:

Not at all, and not to mention the fact that not everyone's going to like you period. Like you and I are going to have this perfect likability score If you just look at your normal relationships and you know around you. Take a sample of 10 or 15 people that are around you.

Karen McFarlane:

You don't like everybody.

Brittany S. Hale:

You just don't Right, or there's people you'll tolerate, but you don't want to hang with and don't have a chance or hang with for any lengthy period of time, like. We all have this subset of people, right, and so it's just this weird metric. However, I do understand it to some degree. Right, it's our bias. We want to like people, that's our goal, and we want to like the person that's going to run our country. I totally get that right and so, but we have to recognize that that's not the only measure of competency, right?

Brittany S. Hale:

It's not even any measure of competency period.

Karen McFarlane:

Correct.

Brittany S. Hale:

But we have to know that that's just, that's just going to be. It is what it is Sometimes, when it comes down to all things being equal. In this case it's not equal, but all things being equal, you know you're going to go with the person you favor more.

Karen McFarlane:

Yeah, and that's bias, folks, right. When you, when you don't, when you don't have. We've all seen it like, oh well, what don't you like about this person? I just don't, I just don't like them. Opportunities and advancement and policy to someone's likability and to your point, yes, it's ideal to say, oh, you know, I like that candidate or they're an engaging speaker or whatever it is. But ultimately I need to know that you can do your job well, right. You can keep us safe, you can help us, within reason, do what we can to realize the American promise, right. So that's what's most important to most people on its face.

Brittany S. Hale:

Look, and here's the thing, Most of the American people are not going to be hanging out having a drink with the president of the United States, correct? Liking them really is even less of a metric than anything else, correct, okay?

Karen McFarlane:

So look, I'm guilty. Although Vice President Harris is welcome to have a drink with us Tea, coffee, whichever you prefer, we're around.

Brittany S. Hale:

We'll walk with you to the plane Correct, exactly, exactly.

Karen McFarlane:

Have a nice, nice belly laugh. You know, that's how my, that's how my six-pack is coming in through laughs, through laughter and look, I wanted to be honest too and say, like I'm guilty of this.

Brittany S. Hale:

Like obviously we're sitting and talking about I'm. I'm totally guilty of this. Like obviously we're we're sitting and talking about I'm. I'm totally guilty of this, I'm more so. Um, have this thing about. I'll say my spirit is not taken to somebody, right. And that's been something that is just in my soul that I'm like.

Brittany S. Hale:

I can't really articulate it Like, if you want me to back that up, I don't have any. I don't have any backative, as Jamaicans would say. Right, but here I recognize it. And so if I'm in a situation where I have some influence right over that person or whatever, I have to check my spirit right and not say, look, you don't have any backative and so therefore you need to try to put that to the side and wait and see if anything emerges. There's a little bias in that, because I'm waiting to see if anything emerges, because I'm already so I have to recognize that too.

Brittany S. Hale:

Now, if there's a situation where I don't have any influence or I honestly don't need to deal with this person like my spirit, don't take to them. I might separate myself Some people may say that's wrong. It just so happens that my spirit is always right, and that's just from that, that's the cancer, the intuition.

Karen McFarlane:

You know the astrological side, exactly, exactly Right. You have to check it, yeah.

Brittany S. Hale:

So I just wanted to say that because, despite you know, you know what we say here. It's not that we don't we or I don't do some of these things, it's just aware of what we're doing. When we do it, you know, making a conscious decision to self-correct.

Karen McFarlane:

Yes, and we've all had that. I've worked with people and I've left the role and I still hang out with those people. We've traveled together, you know people's, I've gone to weddings and baby showers and birthdays, and all of this all because we work together. And there are some people, once I left, completely fell out of my memory, right, like very thankful I never have to speak to you ever again, right, and so you're completely right. And so I think when we're thinking about this, when we're having this conversation about likability, it's on the national stage, but I also invite listeners to think about how it's impacting their day to day. When you're considering people for advancement, promotions, hires, lateral hires, you know any of those things what are you basing it on? Is it because you like them? Is it because they seem like a good fit? What is potential and promise look like, and does it have some grounding in some sort of objective benchmark?

Brittany S. Hale:

Yeah, and just to add to that too, right, and check your, check the other bias around stereotypes, right? So you know, like, like, you just listed out all of these things that women have to think about in order to be likable or to be seen as competent or professional, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, Right, is your bias on how you perceive women in what traditional role you perceive them in? Is that entering the conversation? You know, I had a conversation with someone who was just trying to assess talent on the team and in that conversation, you know and it was a male that I was talking to, and all the male people that were being assessed, you know they were, it was fine, they were competent, they knew what they were doing. But when we were speaking about a woman, right, it was.

Brittany S. Hale:

Well, I'm not sure that they're, that they'd be right for this role, or don't you think they'd be better at something else? Right, and I'm like, well, didn't she say she wanted to do this role? Right, yeah, she did. And I'm not sure. Well, here's the thing, you know, why are you not sure? Also, look at the circumstances surrounding. You know why she, she, may not be successful or poised for success going forward.

Brittany S. Hale:

And I listed a few things as to why, from my observation, why I thought they weren't set up for success and encouraged them to think that before garnering an opinion, right, Right. Did from my point of view, feel like an assessment based on some typical stereotypes.

Brittany S. Hale:

Now, of course you know, because also women have a different cadence, right, yes, Right, and that may not seem as authoritative, right, but it can be just as or maybe even more effective, Right In any particular role, any leadership role or whatever. So, again, just adding on to what you're saying is to check your bias when it comes to gender and then layer on other biases around you know ethnicity, race and sexual orientation, et cetera. Correct? What does that feel like to you?

Karen McFarlane:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about worked with a client who is a woman in leadership and had a tendency to end every question, every sentence, almost like a question with an upward inflection. And it's natural to do so, especially for women, because we're socialized to seek consensus and agreement Right, seek consensus and agreement right and were shied away from being too confident for fear of being, you know, rude or brash or conceited or you know any of those things. And so she would speak in that way, even when she was very certain of what she was saying, and the reception of that was that she got way more pushback. Way more pushback because it invited, it seemed as if she was uncertain, it invited her to be challenged, and people didn't believe that it was. It was more of oh, this is a request, it's not a Mandy, right? So do you think you could get this in by next Friday versus? I need these deliverables done by next Friday? If you can have it by Thursday, even better.

Brittany S. Hale:

Right.

Karen McFarlane:

Same same desire, completely different delivery. Because you know, we talked about it and I said, ok, well, you're asking them, right, could you do? You think you could get it in, but you, it's not a genuine request, right, you're not. You don't really care what they have to do, it needs to be done by Friday. And so we reflected on it. And it was because of this fear of people being displeased, of being impolite, of seeming rude and wanting to be liked, of seeming rude and wanting to be liked. And I'm afraid, if I hand down a mandate, if I tell people what to do, I won't be liked. And I said, but this is your job, it is your job to tell people what to do. And so I think about that. As we are watching Vice President Harris in these next hundred plus days, it will be very curious to see how people receive her, the way she speaks, the way she debates yeah, I mean she's.

Brittany S. Hale:

She has no problem telling people what to do no but whatever, which I think incredible executive leadership skill but with that, right comes like you said, it comes. There are some people who really appreciate being given clear directions and marching orders to do x, y and z, clear success metrics, etc. Right, and I think most people actually like that.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yes, unless they don't like you exactly, exactly, and then it's a problem, it's a problem, and so what we're seeing is this incredible, this narrative now that's being seeded around BP Harris being a DEI hire, and I can just say that it's incredibly offensive in the way that they're using it.

Karen McFarlane:

Correct Because it's it's used as a pejorative, even though on podcast in the past we've said DEI Stanford definitely earned it.

Brittany S. Hale:

Exactly there you go.

Karen McFarlane:

Definitely earned it. Nevertheless, you're completely right.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yeah, and you know, I guess the most annoying part about the whole thing is the bastardization of DEI right.

Karen McFarlane:

Yes.

Brittany S. Hale:

And its narrow focus on promoting racism right in that way. If you listen to this podcast, you know that DEI is a huge category of people, cross-section of people, and is not necessarily focused on race. We talk a lot about race here because we are talking from our own experiences as Black women, right, but we are keenly aware that there's a lot of intersectionality wrong with that. And so calling Kamala a DEI hire is offensive in so many ways because it is implying that A she's got there because of her race and she's not competent. I mean this is highly maybe the most competent person to run for president ever and the fact that some of these people are calling her incompetent for a role they're not really even credible to hold themselves or to hire for right is just insulting beyond belief. I mean what she was?

Brittany S. Hale:

A DA in San Francisco, general in California for elected twice, she served in the role of VP for the past three years, like that's what a VP is. So she she was ready to step in at any time, correct, president Biden be unable to do so and she's not competent or capable of holding the role. I mean that is an insane assumption to me and it just doesn't even gel with just life.

Karen McFarlane:

Or reality, right, exactly and again, so you know. Was it Good Morning America where they had this panel of women Wisconsin discussing their beliefs about Vice President Harris? Vice President Harris and I really, I really, really want to know do people truly believe that she fell out of a coconut tree?

Karen McFarlane:

Whatever you know whatever the joke is. Do you really think she was walking down the street chewing gum, having a good time, and that someone said, would you like to be Attorney General of California? And that she shrugged and said, sure, why not, I'll be a DEI hire? It's not at all how that works. It is not at all how people are admitted to schools. It is not at all how people are admitted to schools. Additionally, it is not how people graduate because, despite being admitted, admission to schools does not guarantee graduating from school.

Karen McFarlane:

So, receiving your degree, being able to pass the bar Right, which is a multi day, eight hours a day exam, it's incredibly grueling. It takes months to study for. Okay, so you can, you will spend 24 hours a whole day being tested. There is, I can assure anyone listening watching this, I've taken the bar and passed it. There's no DEI accommodation. There's no section. There was no. If someone would have said you know, you don't need to travel, you can stay home, we'll give you a path. That didn't happen. It didn't happen for her. There's no section in the Javits Center. If you're in New York, they clear all of it out. It is whole warehouses full of desks and completely silent because people are taking this exam for eight hours.

Brittany S. Hale:

You, small freak To prove their point.

Karen McFarlane:

there must have been a DEI lounge.

Brittany S. Hale:

I might have missed it. There was a test where it said if you're black, black, skip this entire section ah, I, you know, I think I missed that.

Karen McFarlane:

One didn't see it same. With a job, you can't get and keep your role. She's elected twice, yeah, and California is made up of people of all backgrounds.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yeah.

Karen McFarlane:

So I think this is an invitation for us to come back to reality and think about what we are asking people to believe. We're asking people to believe that people are holding jobs for years, that people are elected, that people are drafting policies, that they are advocating for people and doing it well, that they're entering schools, colleges and law schools and med schools and graduating because of a past.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yeah.

Karen McFarlane:

No.

Brittany S. Hale:

No.

Karen McFarlane:

No, it's not how any of that works.

Brittany S. Hale:

It's just beyond belief that people do believe that, though, or that they will end up they'll settle for all this, these little, these digs and misinformation. Right, like people are really focused on clips right now, right.

Karen McFarlane:

Yes.

Brittany S. Hale:

And little clips from back in the day of things that she said and judging her whole personality and her whole platform on maybe 30 seconds, if that Correct. And here's another thing right Particularly with Black people, especially with Black women you alluded to this earlier is that we also feel like it's also put on us that we have to be right all the time. We cannot have a mistake or a misstep.

Karen McFarlane:

Correct, that's we've gotten into whole wars due to mistakes.

Brittany S. Hale:

A hundred percent Right, um, but regardless, when you first take on any job, guess what happens Mistakes, correct. You're learning right, you're not perfect at it. Right. And so if you are judged by one moment in time, one gaffe, one mistake and, worse, by 30 seconds of something you may have said, that may be accurate or maybe you know out of context. Whatever that is not doing you, as the American people, any justice, any good right? It is a disservice to the country that you don't educate yourself on more of these issues but also don't realize or take into account that people are human Right, and I understand it's a big platform. I understand mistakes have huge meaning, but we are still human and those things will happen. But as a black woman, you feel like you don't have any space for that at all, which actually can make you better at your job.

Karen McFarlane:

That's why DEI stands for definitely earned it, because you understand that your margin for error is infinitesimally small. Ok, you can't do it. And this is when we're looking at people, especially leaders. We're looking for decisiveness more than accuracy. There are leaders of organizations, leaders of countries, who've made huge gaffes, but in the moment they were so decisive we felt confident, right. And what we're witnessing here is who's allowed to.

Karen McFarlane:

America is showing us who we can make a mistake with, who we can lose with. The other thing I'm hearing is she can't run because she can't win. There's no way she can win, and this goes back to your point about perfection. Why do we believe that? And why do we feel safe losing with? You know? Oh, but we need, we need Biden, we need, you know, we need a straight, white, elderly male. This is the only person who can win the election. Well, history 44 shows us that's not true, right, but why is it that we only feel safe losing when this is the person that's representing who we're losing, right? Why is it okay that white men are the only people who can make mistakes, public mistakes, lose millions of dollars?

Brittany S. Hale:

It's our trauma, right? It's our collective trauma that we believe that the savior is always a white male right, believe that the savior is always a white male right, and we and in doing so we don't make space for anybody else to prove that they can step up to the job, and so that's the norm. It's the norm for many groups. It's not just white people, you know, it's across the board. And so we have to again consciously check our bias around that and ask ourselves just that question why do we believe that? Why can't we believe something else, right?

Karen McFarlane:

and I think that this is also um, and it's hearkening back to tony morrison and I'm I. I won't do it justice, but I'll try my best. Essentially, when we think about racism and these preconceived notions, it's not only imprisoning or limiting the other. It's imprisoning and limiting the people that we prop up as competent as well. It's imprisoning and limiting white men as well. They may not think it all, you know, people may say, oh no, they have tons of advantage, but the prison of pressure and perfectionism is overwhelming and we've seen it happen. We've just seen someone die from working too hard, working 120 hour weeks consistently. You literally worked yourself to death because you're trying to fit within this expectation. That doesn't work for anyone, right it?

Brittany S. Hale:

liberates everyone in so many ways when you learn to think a little bit differently and we have. I think we're at a turning point in the country where things just need to shift. Yes, keep doing the same thing over and over. Right, we all know that mantra Right, right, keep doing the same thing over and over with this. So why not give it a try? Right? Let's see what happens when we do something a little different. And you know, you, you galvanize a whole other group of people. You uplift them, you make them feel good when they can see and see themselves going back to the beginning of this conversation in a candidate themselves, going back to the beginning of this conversation in a candidate and hopefully, from my view, the President of the United States, and that perspective that's opened up and how that can benefit so many people.

Brittany S. Hale:

America is a melting pot, right? Yes, it may have more of certain groups than others, right, but we can't ignore that there are other people that are part of the mix, and our highest offices, just like we talk about the workplace, should represent the diaspora of people that make up the United States of America, so that we can continue to be united. We are very separated right now we may actually remain so for a while, because there are some deep-seated thoughts right that emerged in the past eight years and I don't see them going away. And I want to say this other, because of our country's history and racism, whether overt or not, is still, you know, really embedded in the fabric of our nation when Kamala stepped into the VP role and now definitely, you know, and hopefully, she opens.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yeah Right, she opens herself up or she's not opening herself up. Let me correct my language. It opens her up to a lot more dangerous vitriol and action.

Brittany S. Hale:

Right, that comes associated with the role in general, but with so much hatred that comes behind some of these things that we're hearing, one of my I don't know, I guess dreams I think dreams is like too big of a word, but I really want to know the behind the scenes of what the Obamas experience. I don't think we'll ever really know. To be honest, I think that's for friends and family, sure. I can't imagine, um, the sacrifice that they put themselves through, mentally and physically, and their children to hold this highest, highest, highest office and open the For some hope. Right, that we need it as a people, right, and Kamala is doing that too, but she's at great sacrifice, personal sacrifice, right. So I just want people to recognize, right, that even if she wins, there's a cost, absolutely, and that she stepped up to try to take it and it's a greater cost than any other president, maybe other than, maybe not, obama, right, but that it has never taken up because of who she is and what she represents, absolutely.

Karen McFarlane:

And I think what we're witnessing are the many stages of grief for a particular portion of the country and ultimately, the last stage of grief is acceptance. And I look forward to that time of acceptance because, as it stands now, as Vice President Harris said, we are not going back.

Brittany S. Hale:

No, we're not. We're going forward and I just hope that this lifetime allows me to see two presidents that are not alike. Yes, I want to see that in my lifetime. I never thought that I would see it. When Obama was elected, I really didn't. And I remember where I was. I was really in my bedroom we're watching. My dad had gone to bed because I don't think he thought he was going to win and son, I think, was like five years old, didn't know what was happening, right, and we were up late. And I remember when he won we just sat there.

Brittany S. Hale:

There was no screaming or anything yeah, it was just looking at the television in utter disbelief wow, ability, right yeah, in the people's ability to recognize that greatness in obakutu, and I was just like I just I just couldn't believe it. Of course, now my son is growing up in a world that had a Black president, right. So calculus there, and I'm hoping that this becomes a norm that we see other people of color be represented in the highest office. So with that, I guess this whole podcast has been a resounding endorsement.

Karen McFarlane:

Yes, Hear hear.

Brittany S. Hale:

We shall see what happens in the month.

Karen McFarlane:

We will keep you all updated.

Brittany S. Hale:

Yes, well, thanks for sharing this moment with you. I want to thank you because sharing this moment with you, brittany, is really important. As you know, this is something we care so dearly about, and to see this represented in this way, I think, is just I don't know, just a highlight of doing this work with you.

Karen McFarlane:

Likewise, likewise. Thank you, karen.

Brittany S. Hale:

Until next time.

Karen McFarlane:

Later.