From Pre-Med to Financial Maestro: Nick's Dramatic Career Leap into Sales Success

When a would-be doctor trades his stethoscope for a financial ledger, you know there's a story worth hearing. Nick Sakaleros, regional vice president at Midland National, joins us to recount his dramatic career pivot that led him to the world of financial services—a move all spurred by a mentor's pivotal advice. His tale is a masterclass in adaptability, showcasing the transformation from a pre-med student to a financial maestro, all while embracing the art of communication to thrive in the interpersonal dynamics of sales and finance.

Have you ever faced a career-defining moment and wondered how to not only survive but excel? This episode is brimming with such stories, as I share my own relentless pursuit of excellence within the fiercely competitive financial industry. You'll hear about the trials of setting audacious sales goals, the resilience needed to bounce back from rejection, and the delicate dance of building professional relationships that last. This is an unvarnished look at the strategies and personal grit it takes to rise through the ranks—and the satisfaction that follows.

Wrapping up, we don't just leave you with stories—we arm you with the tools for your own journey. Discover the secrets behind assembling a 'unicorn' team that drives success in sales, and why aligning individual strengths with roles is critical. Learn from our insights on the power of mindset and the books that have shaped our professional philosophies. If you're looking to redefine your career or seeking the inspiration to overcome obstacles, join us as we explore these transformative themes through the eyes of someone who's walked the path and emerged victorious.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:14

Today we're going to spend time with Nick Sakaleros, who is a regional vice president for Midland National. He's been in this business and been with Midland for 17 years and has a wealth of guidance, advice, motivation for other RVPs and any individual that might be listening. Nick, how did you get into the financial services business?

Speaker 2: 0:42

Wow, kind of a long story, but it started, you know, when I was a kid, in high school. Even into my first couple of years of college, I wanted to be a doctor, believe it or not. So my initial courses that even the university I selected was Kahneman University. I went to their undergrad program. It's in Philadelphia. It used to be a teaching hospital. It's changed since, I think it's owned by Drexel now.

Speaker 2: 1:09

So I was a pre-med student for my first couple of years of college and then at one point I just figured out that I didn't want to be a doctor. Yet I knew I wanted that kind of lifestyle, so to speak. Right, I didn't want to be a doctor. Yet I knew I wanted that kind of lifestyle, so to speak. Right, I didn't want to worry financially, I wanted to be able to work hard, and that hard work translate to financial success and a lifestyle that I'd always dreamt about, even as a kid. So once I figured out I wasn't going to be a doctor, there aren't a whole lot of industries or careers that you can get into that could provide a similar lifestyle. Obviously there's a bunch, right, and I'd argue there's probably more today, way more today than there was back then and we're talking back in the late nineties. So my best friend's father is an executive search consultant and he was a mentor of mine for sure, maybe one of the first times I actually asked him advice and solicited just guidance from him. He knew a lot about my ambition, he knew where I wanted to go in life and that was kind of his recommendation. He said look, I know you by now and you're not interested in being an attorney, you're not interested in some of these other industries or career paths that might provide a similar lifestyle. I do think financial services is probably the best way to go.

Speaker 2: 2:22

Then I changed my major. I actually transferred schools. I went to Villanova, which is where I graduated from, because now that I didn't need pre-med, the Hahnemann University thing just didn't make a whole lot of sense. So I transferred to Villanova and my career path at that point started because I switched all of my courses and major to communication arts and really focused on my ability to communicate both interpersonally but also in front of an audience. Right Work on my presentation skills, even social skills. You know I worked on that more. I was more conscious of in front of people around people, maybe being a bit more vocal, and that's where it all started around people maybe being a bit more vocal, and that's where it all started. So he introduced me, or I graduated, to a financial planning firm, very large one, in Delaware County, pennsylvania, and that's where I got my start, you know, working at that company as a financial advisor.

Speaker 1: 3:11

And how long did you stay there for?

Speaker 2: 3:14

Only a couple of years and, by the way, maybe the most difficult two years of my career wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. Their training and career agency systems are well known for how good their training is. So if your entree into financial services is within that career environment, chances are you're not going to last very long. The retention rates are in the high teens, maybe low 20 percentage points. But if you make it, you make you really make it right financially. But I didn't. So after I'm butting my head against the wall for a couple of years at that firm and decided to leave now I built a really good skill set, really good phone work. That was predominantly what I did there and I got really really good on the phone, which is such a staple of what any of us do in sales period. But it just wasn't working out for me financially there. The compensation structure was weird. My wife today was my girlfriend at the time and I had no shot at buying a ring. Financially it just wasn't there.

Speaker 2: 4:13

So I decided to make a move and luck would have it one of the senior partners in that firm, his wife, was a sales manager on the Lincoln Financial sales desk. So here I am what was considered a marketing associate, making hundreds of calls a week and really not getting paid for it, to now interviewing with a company that I would basically be doing the same job but not as full of a market. I'm not cold calling as I was back then. Now I'm talking to financial advisors that speak my language and in an internal wholesaling role and I've got a base salary, I've got commission upside, I've got 401k, I've got benefits. I've got all that. Now I can afford a ring. It was a whole new world for me.

Speaker 2: 5:04

Now, that being said, certainly you take that on with the knowledge that you're probably going to limit your upside potential from a growth perspective. But that was my entree in wholesaling and you know it didn't take me too long to be in an internal wholesaling role, to see the external wholesaling role as an opportunity and how that could now provide me if I work for it. As I work towards that goal my head down and do everything I can to get those opportunities, didn't take very long for me to figure out that. Okay, that's the way that I can get that lifestyle that I dreamed about, and here's my new path. That's what I focused on until, ultimately, I became an external wholesaler, maybe five, six years later, and that's where I sit today. You're still at the same company.

Speaker 1: 5:42

Different company yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:43

Yeah, different company. The whole idea of paying your dues translates to that job as well. So as an internal wholesaler based in Philadelphia, you're probably not going to get access to the Philadelphia territory as an external wholesaler, because everybody in the world wants it to the Philadelphia territory as an external wholesaler because everybody in the world wants it and they're generally recruiting from other carriers, other companies, to fill that role. It's such an important territory. So I had to move.

Speaker 2: 6:08

I had to pick up my family or at the time it was my wife, and not even newborn babies. She was pregnant with Sophie, my daughter, at the time when we got this offer. So we moved to Virginia. I was commuting to Virginia on a weekly basis while Jen, my wife, was still pregnant with Sophie, because we didn't want to change hospitals and go through all of that. So we waited till delivery and then we moved down there and spent another year and a half or so there, and that's when my current company, midland National, came calling and said we've got this opportunity, we can bring you back to Philly, and that started my path with them. That was about geez what, 17 plus years ago now. Now I sit with the same firm, same company.

Speaker 1: 6:48

Incredible. What was the biggest learning experience that you went through in all those times of making phone calls and everything else you had to do? What did you learn most from that process?

Speaker 2: 7:01

I learned a ton right. I learned, certainly, that hard work and focus and drive does lead to the thing that you want in life. Now you could take every which way to get there circling in and out, ups and downs, you name it but you put your head down and you work hard and you demonstrate that not only are you a hard worker and you've got a skill set right, you do need some talent to shrink that curve, to get to where you need to a little bit faster. But then there's but there's opportunities to improve your skill sets. I took advantage of every opportunity I could to A, improve my skill set but also, b, demonstrate to the higher ups that this is what I want. So I did that. I took every opportunity. I led the entire sales desk in activity. We're measured by activity, whether it was outbound calls, illustrations that we did for our advisors, case planning, any measure of activity. I led the way the entire way.

Speaker 2: 8:00

In fact, a lot of my counterparts used to get on me a little bit. They used to say, nick, you're screwing up the curve. I used to be here. Now it's here since you came aboard. So that was something that I had to. I worked towards, but then also, anytime we had an opportunity to be in front of a senior individual within the company sales vice president or otherwise you had to demonstrate to them that I'm serious. So I took every opportunity to do that. If I saw a senior vice president walking through the hall, I put my phone on do not disturbed. I grabbed him and I walked him down the elevator and offered to buy coffee and just chat with him. I took every opportunity to do it. So you've just got to have such extreme focus on the end game that you take advantage of every opportunity that presents itself. So that, really, more than anything, is what I learned to ultimately get to where I am.

Speaker 1: 8:44

People would be a little bit nervous about going up to that person and having that dialogue. I was nervous, for sure, when you did it what was their reaction on their end?

Speaker 2: 8:56

It depended, I think, on the person or the circumstances, but by and large they were into it. Look, a wholesaling role. You've got to be able to be uncomfortable. You've got to be able to walk into an advisor's office, for example, and know that they're going to. They could tell you get out. And no, I didn't ask you to be here to get out.

Speaker 2: 9:12

But dropping into an advisor's office is not uncommon with what we do. So you get that kind of rejection, different reactions to what you're looking for, and that's part of the job. So when you can demonstrate that, regardless of the circumstances or how nervous I might be, you can demonstrate to that decision maker, that ultimately gives you that shot on the outside that I'm okay with this discomfort and I'm willing to take a leap of faith here. Right, and engage you in conversation. You may not know who I am and even offer to buy you a coffee, which might sound silly to the guy on the way out of the office, but still do it. Still do it just for the opportunity, that time at bat, to demonstrate how serious I am.

Speaker 2: 9:53

Ask them for advice. You know part of it is you're selling them. You're selling them a little bit on who you are and how serious you are about that role, and part of the sales process is to make them feel good, so you're also letting them know how great of an opportunity it is for me to share an elevator with you and just pick your brain for the 30 seconds that we have together. And oh, by the way, can I buy you coffee so I can have a little bit longer. Some said yes, some said no, each time, whether I was nervous or not, as sharp as I could be verbally just the fact that I did it was enough.

Speaker 2: 10:25

Can you recall one lesson learned from something they may have shared with you? The one that jumps out at me was be prepared to be in that situation, even if it means putting a suit on when you don't have to, because you never know when that decision maker is going to be walking by. On our internal sales desk, our dress code was business casual. Well, not only was I screwing up the curve for all the other with my activity, I was the guy that showed up in a suit when I didn't have to. Why? Again, just taking advantage of the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 10:52

So there might have been a time or two early on where I wasn't suited up, and that was a little bit of advice that was passed on to me. But it was a little bit of advice that was passed on to me, but it was a very consistent theme Take advantage of every opportunity that presents itself for there to be a spotlight on you, because you don't get that opportunity often. And when there is, take advantage of it and be ready. So you never know, when it happens, be ready to take advantage of it and look the part and be prepared.

Speaker 1: 11:18

How about dealing with rejection? You're essentially getting rejected a lot of the time. How did you learn how to deal?

Speaker 2: 11:25

with it. So I'll go back to how I started facing it. And it gets back to what I said earlier on about getting that start in that agency system Hardest two years of my life professionally. Well, largely because it was constant rejection Constant. If I made 500 calls in a week I met 300 people hung up on me, 150 said that referral source is BS, I don't know who you're talking about and hung up the phone on me and then maybe 50, I get a decent conversation with.

Speaker 2: 11:53

So that kind of repeated and it's only rejection if you take it as that. It's whatever's going on in their world, that ultimately, while they move on. So you just find a way to frame it in as positive a light as you can. But most importantly, you just forget it. That's the most important piece is it's in a rear view mirror, it doesn't affect anything I'm doing in the next phone call. And if it did, then it's real rejection. Right, if I put down the phone and didn't make another phone call because of what the last person said to me, that's failure and that's rejection and I just wasn't willing to accept that, I just wasn't willing to.

Speaker 2: 12:26

So those two years of constant, those type of reactions when I made a phone call, whether it was rejection or not, you develop pretty thick skin and the ability and stamina to plow right through that rejection. It's almost like the fear barrier that we talk about. You figure out how to break through that and in that case it was fear of rejection. Well, I've been through the worst of it right 300 times last week. But what else can you do to me? Once you kind of frame that in your mind, the rest gets to be easy. And look, it's interesting. I think when the stakes are higher then, yeah, you get a little bit of those nerves coming up or you might have some thoughts that start to become prevalent that aren't necessarily productive. You just got to be aware of them, you got to figure out where they're coming from and generally it's because the stakes are high. So that immediately is a trigger for me to say, oh, this is a really important meeting. If I'm a little bit nervous, this is a really important meeting.

Speaker 1: 13:25

Let's figure out what the ideal outcome is and focus on that. The rejection on being on the phone is a very different type of rejection than when you're sitting in front of someone or going inside the door and having to see them face to face. What was the difference for you so?

Speaker 2: 13:34

there's a couple of versions of it. There's the rejection. When you know, when I was a wire house wholesaler, I do what are called walkthroughs. Walkthroughs are basically systematic torture for a wholesaler. You could have very productive walkthroughs, don't get me wrong, but for every positive conversation you're going to have fives that are not positive, and or they just get out Nope, don't come in here, come in here, nope, I'm busy. That kind of thing with very little thought or consideration as to the human being on the other end of it.

Speaker 2: 14:05

But it sounded so familiar. It sounded exactly like my phone call. Yeah, Maybe I was in person and the guy's looking me in the eyes as he's telling me to get out of his office, and that's a little bit weird at first. But the gig and that, no matter what happens, no matter what that person says to me, I'm still going to go home tonight. I'm still going to go home to a wife that loves me and a baby that can't wait to see me, and it's not going to change my world and it gets back to the other ideal Again. The only way that that rejection, or whatever it's called, would be considered failure is if I picked up my bag and I walked out of the office entirely and I didn't continue down my path of my walkthrough. So you just do it. You just do it. It's part of the gig and look wholesaling.

Speaker 2: 14:46

In general, it's a career that still a lot of folks don't know about, right. My kids could never actually explain what I do to their face. It's an interesting industry, but that's the trade-off. You have a terrific lifestyle, you represent companies that you're very proud of and the compensation can be excellent. For sure, that's what you deal with and as long as you know what the trade-off is, that's maybe that. Whatever you would perceive as negative, that's what it is. But as a trade-off I get all of this opportunity. It's a no-brainer and you figure out pretty quickly how to deal with it.

Speaker 1: 15:17

If you were starting over today? I said, nick, everything's gone. You got to start over in this business. What would you do?

Speaker 2: 15:27

I would do the same thing Absolutely. And even if I had to go back to square one and do it the same way again, I would do the same thing Absolutely. Look, I've been doing this for, in some way, shape or form, financial services in general since 98, right? So we're talking 26 years ago, and I'm a firm believer that my path happened as a path, for a reason, and it got me to where I am. I don't know that I will do this forever, but if I had to do it again, I'd do it the same way.

Speaker 1: 15:56

Yeah, what about selling? So it's one thing to get in front of someone, but then it's building the relationship and then ultimately having them buy through you.

Speaker 2: 16:22

What do you find was they're listening and you feel like there's a ticking clock for the time that you have available. So you just spew everything out right, and you're literally just throwing up facts. And this is my mutual fund and this is the performance numbers, or now, this is what my life insurance product can do, and here's all the widgets that we have that the other carrier doesn't have. The advisor doesn't care anything about that. The first thing they want to do is figure out whether or not they would even do business with you as a person. And what's the best way to do that? Ask questions, shut up and listen, because we all love to talk about ourselves in some way, shape or form. We do, inherently we do.

Speaker 2: 17:00

And when somebody asks questions and is genuinely interested, and the best way to demonstrate that you're interested is to actually just listen and maybe follow up with other questions that are related you get good enough after a while of doing it.

Speaker 2: 17:15

There's ways to steer those answers and follow up questions to where you want them to go, and ultimately, it's just figuring out what they want out of life, out of their practice, out of what do they want for their clients. And so there's three questions that I always go to and I might weave in and out of them, but it's not necessarily just a rapid fire three questions, but those are the questions that ultimately get me the information that I need to be able to come back to that advisor based on what their why is and then quantify the value that I can bring to disabled. You do that every single time and some, by the way, you're going to say I can't really do anything for you or really not a fit, and ultimately you say here's a strategy that we've had success with. Maybe it fits, maybe it doesn't. You take your shot. From a long-term relationship standpoint, it may not be a fit, but at least and that's the important part- so you said there are three questions that I always ask.

Speaker 1: 18:08

What are the three questions?

Speaker 2: 18:09

All right. So the first question is once you get them talking about their practice a little bit, you want to figure out what their and every advisor calls it something different. Is it your A client? Is your platinum client? Is it your number one clients? Is your you're basically your top tier clients. You want to know what they look like and what type of work they do for them, because what they look like tells you. Especially if you're a life insurance wholesaler, as I am, those sort of age-based demographics are really important because you know what strategy is a fit versus not. If I'm dealing with an advisor that has a younger client base, then I know that's predominantly term or supplemental retirement planning. If I have an older demographic, that's more wealth transfer strategies or estate planning or otherwise. If I know somebody who deals with business owners, I know what track I could take. So you want to know what type of work they do for them, because what the client is, who they are, what they look like and then what type of work they do for them. Now the reason they're going to tell you what solutions they've already brought to the table. Is it annuities? Is it financial planning? Is it wealth management? Do you do life insurance, and any one of those again leads me to a new series of questions. When I find out what type of clients they have and what type of work they do for them, I know the track that I can go down.

Speaker 2: 19:24

The second would be this is a tricky one you ask what about your practice, would you like to further develop? When you ask that question and you throw it in there maybe a little bit after you ask about their client base and what they look like, because they're already telling you what they do what about your practice would you like to further develop? Always gets them to really sit back. Think about what the answer to that question can be, and it can be anything. It could say I want to hire an assistant, I'm flooded with five reviews, or I want a junior advisor, or inevitably. What ends up happening is they know I'm the life insurance wholesaler and they say you know what, after you've built rapport and you've asked all these other questions, you got to know them a little bit. I'd actually like to sell more life insurance. I'd actually like to implement more life insurance strategies into my practice. It doesn't matter again what the answer is, as long as I know. And again, when I quantify the value of what I can bring, in most cases I can steer it back to what they want to further develop. If you want to hire another assistant and I bring strategies that are going to increase your revenue by X, maybe that leads to another assistant, the affordability of another assistant. So I can connect the dots once I know that.

Speaker 2: 20:34

And then the third question is and I make this very clear I don't need or want to know how much money you make, but do you have any goals for increase in your revenue in the next 12 months? Do you want to make another 50,000? And what would that mean for you? Then you get the why. Right, I'd like to make another 50,000 over the next 12 months. That'd be great. What would that do for you? Would you? Is it all a tuition? Would you build a deck of the house? Would you hire an assistant?

Speaker 2: 20:58

Now I can go back and revisit again. If I can show you how to make that extra 50 grand, would you give me an opportunity at this business? And then you're off and running. At that point, once you've quantified the value of our average case, size is $10,000 in target premium, you want to make another 50,000. If I show you a strategy that can bring another five or six clients that lead ultimately to that increase in revenue, would we have an opportunity to work together? Great Look, we're off and running. Now let's get into our next visit.

Speaker 1: 21:26

When you take that approach with new agents. What's the success rate? Do you track that In terms of what would be considered?

Speaker 2: 21:33

success, reaching that goal.

Speaker 1: 21:36

I think, well, either that or I was thinking more of them doing business with you after you take this approach out.

Speaker 2: 21:43

I've never quantified. I don't think I have anyway, certainly not in a while. It's become second nature to me. So it's my view of success in that meeting is the next meeting right, and then the next meeting after that, so on and so forth. Ultimately, I go through that process. Maybe it takes 20 or 25 minute conversation and I'm usually up against time. If I'm really being conscious of that advisor time, which you always have to be, I'm just moving to the next appointment. Let's schedule this thing out so I can bring our. Based on what you told me about your eight clients, I've got a strategy that I know will be effective. Let's schedule that next visit so I can share that strategy. If I have the answer to those three questions, my win is the next meeting and, by the way, sometimes, based on the answers, there's no next meeting and that's okay, in that scenario, my win is, I know, not to go back to that individual.

Speaker 1: 22:33

Yeah, you're not wasting your time, you're not wasting their time. What about tracking metrics? What are two or three key things that an RVP must track? What would that be? Things that an RVP must track? What would that be?

Speaker 2: 22:44

Activity, activity, activity, that's it. I mean we are in an activity-based business. We need to tell our story to more people more often, period. So it's all about the activity. Now you've got to measure specific forms of activity and for me, I've reached a point in my career where I have staff. I have an infrastructure of folks out of my sales office, so I hold our entire staff accountable for proactive activity, the reactive stuff great, I hope that's coming in, because that means we're busy and ultimately we're doing what we need to do and that will factor into our overall activity because you only have so many hours in a day.

Speaker 2: 23:20

But the output, the effort if you find a way to quantify that for you and your team and hold everybody accountable to that metric. It's different for everybody, right? And the life insurance world is way different than it is for the mutual fund world. Mutual fund is more of a commoditized type of selling A lot of performance numbers, a lot of data. So you need your times at bat to tell the story, probably more times at bat to tell the story, because you have the ability to do that On the life insurance side. If I get a call with an agent, I might go two hours, so you got to be careful with how you're developing those metrics.

Speaker 2: 23:56

Now I've got the benefit of 17 years in this exact job, so I know overall what our metrics need to be. But the most important part of that, my staff knows it too. My staff knows that we need 250 pieces of activity each week, and that doesn't count. Blast emails. You can't blast something out to 100 people and say that's 100 activities, it's individual activities. We need 250 collectively every single week to get where we need to get to, and it's all backing into the numbers.

Speaker 2: 24:27

So now there's other aspects of results that I would consider leading indicators, like our recruiting efforts. In other words, how many new people are we bringing in? How many new people are submitting a new piece of business? How many new people are paying for a piece of business? That's certainly important. Our app counts are really important as well. That's a leading indicator to your overall production. But we've focused very little on the actual results and much more on the process. That's really important, especially when you have a staff and you want everybody running in the same direction. Stop staring at the results every single day, know in your head what the results need to be and keep tracking towards that, so you can be a result aware but not result obsessed. We are process obsessed, results aware.

Speaker 1: 25:14

The top two activities that the staff would be really important for them to take are what are they?

Speaker 2: 25:20

Phone calls are number one and then proactive individual emails are acceptable. But it really is the hierarchy of the type of activities that phone calls first, email second. Now for me it's in-person meetings but, and so I hold myself accountable to 15 plus meetings a week. A mutual bond wholesaler might have 30 appointments a week Again, different nature of their appointment versus mine. I need to be available, underwriting concerns and all that stuff, but 15 per week for me. I've set appointments but guess what? My staff is accountable to keep me busy and that's part of it. So the proactive phone calls for my scheduling assistant to make sure my calendar is full, that's critical. I consider my activity, my in-person activity. Another result metrics. It's a result of my scheduling assistance, proactive work.

Speaker 1: 26:08

What are two or three really important things you need to do when you're building a team?

Speaker 2: 26:13

I think it's important first to start with what I would call an organizational strategy having the right people in the right seat on the bus. So when you're building a team, you've got to make sure they fit in that seat, and that's the realistic aspect of it. You can't expect a really talented sales individual to be in an admin role. It's just not the right person in the right seat, whereas in an admin role you need a different set skill set to be successful in that. So that's the most important piece. So when I looked at my overall and a lot of REPs don't even have this opportunity. They're stuck with the internal wholesaler or whatever backup system that the company gives them. I'm very fortunate in that, although I am a wholesaler, I have the ability to create my own staff in my own office and I have, for example, I have, two sales individuals, two marketers, and they've got to be really good from a person-to-person skillset standpoint, really personable and not afraid of the phone, not afraid of significant output when it comes to those phone calls outward. By the same token, you've got to be able to pivot when you get that phone call in and flip a switch to that advisor that is calling you is now the most important person in the world Got to be able to do that. Bob, in and out of it. Now for my other two support staff one is strictly in an administrative role For her organizational, obviously hard work and all of that is a must across the board. They've got to be invested in what you're doing and care about what you're doing, but the hard work is a must. She's got to be very organized, she's got to be very detail oriented and when we have our systems and processes, we've had our systems and processes laid out forever. So it's very hard to screw up in this role. But the only way you screw up is if you're not paying attention to detail on what we need and how we need it and who gets copied on what, so on and so forth. So you've got to have somebody that is not winging, it is going to be faithful to your systems and processes and ultimately very organized, and not just organized from a standpoint of my desk is set, my email is set, my folders are set, but organized with their time management as well. If you're sitting on hold because you have to call a customer service team on behalf of an advisor, what's your normal process when you do that, are you just staring at the phone for 30 minutes or do you have other stuff that's set for those moments? So time management is critically important as well.

Speaker 2: 28:40

For my scheduling assistant, I got to tell you I don't think that she's a unicorn. She's a unicorn she is. I've probably had her in half a dozen different roles over the years and she's embraced and thrived in every one of them. So when you find that person that is almost like your joker, that that is critically important to your organization, and hang on to them Hopefully she doesn't listen to this because she'll ask for a raise Hang on to that person because ultimately you can plug them into any role where you need it. Maybe not an overly sales type of role. She's not necessarily built for that Everything else.

Speaker 2: 29:16

So she managed all of my marketing systems and processes.

Speaker 2: 29:20

She holds me accountable for the stuff that I have to do, like my weekly newsletter, like picking my workshop locations, looking at my birthday card list and picking off all the birthday cards that I want to send out All that stuff.

Speaker 2: 29:31

She holds me accountable to all those processes.

Speaker 2: 29:34

So organizational skill elite at organizational skills.

Speaker 2: 29:39

Then I pivot.

Speaker 2: 29:40

I say you know what, jen? I think it's time for you to be my scheduling assistant. I've outsourced this for years. You're more than capable of doing it, and we can work directly with each other, versus through third parties and all that Guess what. She took it over, she embraced it and she kills it at my scheduling work, all while still managing all of my systems and process. And then even something as, yeah, once I pick my workshop locations, actually schedule my workshops, work with the home office for the invitations and so on. So everything we do is systematized and she manages 90% of those systems because we are a sales and marketing office and she's my marketing director. Make sure the people match the seat on your bus. So you got the right people in the right seats on the bus, but then, when you've got that joker, that wild card, just make sure you are giving them enough, because generally their capacity is through the roof. Make sure you're giving them enough and you're compensating them the right way, because they are probably the most important person in your organization.

Speaker 1: 30:43

What about moving to something a little bit different when you're feeling stuck? I would imagine from time to time that happens. What do you typically do? That's a great question.

Speaker 2: 30:54

When I'm feeling stuck. Let's call it mentally right, I call it getting sideways. You're on your path and now you go sideways and it's all about mindset, all about mindset and thankfully, through my work with you, I've now have a process to get my mind. I used to wing it in the past and I've. I've read, you know, just a strip of. A lot of folks in my seat have a number of books that help you with mindset. I even had a mindset coach for a while and she was terrific, but again, not necessarily process oriented. So I'll answer it as I do it today, because it certainly happens. In fact. I mean, you know this personally I'm in one of the most challenging, the most challenging stretch in my career from a production standpoint.

Speaker 2: 31:37

All of which are the reasons out of my control the economic environment, interest rates not being favorable for us, the skyrocketing of interest rates, market volatility, you name it. It's been a challenge. But guess what? My mind is perfect because every single day I have my process to make sure, before I speak to anybody I'm going to interact with or try and sell, quote, unquote, my mind's right. No wavering in my confidence. I know it's not a mean thing. I've got extreme faith in my ability, confidence and faith in my ability to succeed in this role, because I can point to any number of history right examples in history where I have been in a similar position and succeeded. I have the ability to draw from all of that and work it into my process to make sure that my mind is right and whatever agent or advisor I'm speaking to today is not feeling any of it.

Speaker 2: 32:30

If you've got the negative thoughts persisting, it's very, very difficult to be successful and to climb out of whatever you're in. So the process to get my mind right is critically important. And again, in years past I draw from a number of different things. A lot of it was gratitude-based and goal-oriented, focused on my goals, but I never had a process. Never had a process until I started working with you. So now it's easy, but used to be harder, but it's easy now to get my mind right. And what makes it also easier I know not everybody can say that having 17 years of this exact role and job to pull from and remind myself how much trust and faith I should have in myself, it happens pretty quickly where my mind gets right and again, most importantly, the agent or advisor that I'm sitting across from or speaking to on the other line on the phone doesn't sense anything about what's happening. That might be negative under some circumstances. For me, just the circumstance is not reality and we are hyper-focused on getting where we need to be, as we always have.

Speaker 1: 33:34

In a sales position. How important is mindset to success?

Speaker 2: 33:39

Critically important. Critically important. I don't know how sales professionals that don't have their mind right ever succeed. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it happens, but I just don't understand how frankly because it's so hard, it could be so hard I shouldn't say it's so hard it can be so hard, especially for wholesalers and regionals can be so hard. Especially for wholesalers and regionals. There are so many aspects of how we're measured and how we're compensated that are completely out of our control. I can count on one hand the times in a year that I actually meet with a client that purchases our product. It's always I'm a step or two away from that at least, not to mention underwriting and all these other considerations product pricing or interest rates or economic environments that are totally out of our control.

Speaker 2: 34:30

A mutual fund wholesaler is sort of dependent on the performance of their mutual fund. If they're not performing up to speed, are you just going to go to the next mutual fund carrier? Maybe, but probably not. But you're still there. So how can you get your mind right to where? You're still succeeding, you're still finding opportunity, even if the performance, which is totally out of your control, is not top tier or not best in class. How do you find ways to bridge those gaps? You can't find those opportunities, or at least it's difficult to find those opportunities and make your mind aware of where those opportunities are coming from. If you don't have the right mindset, if your head is down and you're negative and again, as I put it, you're getting sideways in terms of what your overall path is, it's going to be really hard to find those opportunities as they come, because you may not see them. You may not see them.

Speaker 1: 35:24

So for someone that's listening to this and maybe their mindset isn't in the right place, what would be one tip that you would give them around mindset?

Speaker 2: 35:35

Well, my assumption is that they are goal-oriented, because most sales professionals are in some way shape or form. Well, take that to the next level. Create a why behind your goal. Get emotion behind your goal. Put emotion behind your goal. Put imagination behind your goal.

Speaker 2: 35:52

The term what's my why is a bit overused and cliche, but there's some real meaning there, some real meaning. And whatever your goal is and if you haven't developed one and I don't mean my plan next year is to do $30 million in mutual funds or annuity sales, or my plan next year, that's not the goal I'm talking about what do you want out of life and by when? Really do some soul searching about that goal and keep it top of mind always and get your mind and emotion in line with that goal, because that's your beacon when things get rough, when things get sideways, when it feels like there's forces out of your control that are stopping you from getting there. That's the most important. You should do it every day, all the time, every day review your goal and again, try and tie the emotion behind it. But those are also the times where you go back to it and you go back to your process of reminding yourself what that goal is and what it's going to feel like, what it already feels to get there and what's at stake. I want you to remind yourself of that, especially in those difficult times, that I trust in myself and my process to get there, regardless of what's right in front of me. You break through those barriers and your head picks up and you get right back after it.

Speaker 2: 37:08

And when all else fails, man be grateful. We can all be grateful for something. So if you're having a hard time even focusing on the goal because something again got sideways, start with the basic and just be grateful for what you have and the opportunity that you have, even if it's a rejection. Well, thank goodness, thank God, thank the universe, whoever you're thanking, that you're alive, well and healthy enough to get that rejection, and so is your family. So there's a foundation, I think, to gratitude to get your mind right. And then there's a but I think ultimately, the most effective is just to be obsessed with that goal and know that, regardless of what happens in between now and then, you're getting there.

Speaker 1: 37:45

Why do you think that it's so important for someone to have a mentor or a coach in this business?

Speaker 2: 37:51

That's a great, great question. I've always believed in coaches and you can get right down to the basic reasoning behind it. I don't know everything and sometimes when you get into these vortexes or you get sideways and you can't climb out of it, it is a third party or another person that can help steer you in the right direction. And coaches have the experience, the knowledge base, the skill set to A get you out of there quicker. Mentors, because they've done it, they've been it, they've coached it, they've done it, et cetera, but also teach you the processes that you can do it on your own. You need a coach and I've had, and still have, coaches for mindset. I have coaches for practice management and I've had sales coaches, sales techniques and otherwise. Because I don't know it all and every facet of it Now I don't work with all three at the same time, but there are portions, there are moments within my career where I need every one of them in some way, shape or form.

Speaker 2: 38:56

To me, the hierarchy is probably mindset, sales, coaching and then practice management. Practice management is important, but you can YouTube a lot of that stuff, but it's nice to be able to bounce ideas from an individual that specializes in systems, processes and practice management. It's really nice to be able to do that, but not everybody can. But nothing's more important than mindset, because the reality is the other stuff doesn't matter. If your mind's right, you're just not going to be able to see that. You're not going to see effective sales coaching if your mind is in the gutter. That's just the way it is.

Speaker 2: 39:29

So mindset first, sales second and then maybe practice management. The reality is again coaches, and I'll say you, you've seen it, you've worked with those that have had a hard time climbing out of it or getting their mind. You've shown them how to do it, and that's that to me is critically important. I don't know at all. I can't read. I could, I guess, technically, maybe read a book on the subject and pull some value out of it, but in terms of again creating a process that fits me and then bouncing ideas off of an individual that has more experience in putting it together than I do, I mean, why would I try to reinvent the wheel?

Speaker 1: 40:03

In all the coaching that you've done, what do you think the return on investment was for you?

Speaker 2: 40:07

I don't even. I'm not even sure if I could quantify it. I mean, I might even say honestly that when I started embracing coaching which is probably 45, four or five years into my Midland National career, so we're talking 13 years ago I wouldn't be here where I am without it, that's for sure. I would have gone sideways, I would have been with another company at some point, just because it was a challenge at that moment in time. And thank goodness that I did embrace coaching and it made me more effective as a salesperson. It made me, it made my mind right or show me how I can make my mind right.

Speaker 2: 40:44

And without that again, I'll use this here as an example, mike. I mean, if the first quarter plus incredibly challenging, if I didn't have a process to get my mind right through that time, I wouldn't have come out of the other end of it. I would have come out of the other end differently. Let's put it that way and not necessarily in the way that I want to. Yet, through all of this I just experienced in the last four weeks I'm looking at the calendar I, I, I my data doesn't go back that far in terms of being able to analyze this, but I can't remember a four week stretch where I had more submitted premium than the last four weeks. It just goes to show you, look, I trust myself to figure it out and that's the reality. So make sure my mind's right, or else maybe I don't figure it out.

Speaker 1: 41:33

Just a couple of rapid fire questions real quick. What's the best book that you ever read and what's one thing that you learned from that book?

Speaker 2: 41:41

The one that sticks out at me the most I'm looking at it right now is you, and I've talked about this book. You, squared. I read that prior to meeting you and it's actually ended up that it's an integral part of our process. That was the first time that I at least had a process to create a vision and it was so powerful to me and the best part about it and we just talked about this recently the vision I created came to fruition twice. I actually went through the process of creating this vision and holding myself accountable to this vision and reminding myself every day both times it came to fruition.

Speaker 2: 42:15

So the fact that there was real correlation to a process and the results, that's why I could point to it and say it's my favorite book. And I don't mean page by page. Wow, this is riveting, not what I mean when I say my favorite book, but just the fact that after reading it, it's a very quick read. After reading it and committing to it, the results actually backed up the effectiveness of the book. So that's certainly one Sidebar. There's a really good book practice management wise, I would say called the One Thing Excellent book, because I am a recovering multitasker, and I say recovering, because I flip up all the time and that really demonstrated how, focusing on one thing at a time, it really is the most effective way to run your business.

Speaker 1: 43:00

If you could meet any person in the world, who would it be and why?

Speaker 2: 43:04

This is going to sound weird and who knows what you do with this information. This is going to sound weird and who knows what you do with this information. But Howard Stern would be somebody that I'd really want to meet and probably at the top of my list. Now why? Howard Stern Obviously makes me laugh, and that's important Whenever we talk about good vibes and mindset. Humor and getting into a place of laughter is just as effective as gratitude. Sometimes as silly as his show can be, sometimes you just need to be silly. But also the way he has evolved over time is really impressive to me.

Speaker 2: 43:37

He was an adolescent, still is in some ways, but through his 50s, maybe even into his early 60s, just a kid and kind of a vulgar kid, but the way he, throughout that he has stayed convicted, his goals and vision for what he wanted to become, never wavered to the point where again, he did some kind of crazy things over the years because he was convinced that was the way to get to where he needed to be. Didn't necessarily love doing it. He talks about it all the time how much regret he has and how he handled certain things, but at the same time it got him to where he needed to be. So I wouldn't replicate his path, but, man, I'd love to pick his brain about what's really going on behind the scenes when things got really hard. What did he tell himself?

Speaker 2: 44:25

He's a big meditator. He's somewhat famous for being a big into transcendental meditation and sitting in quiet time and going inside yourself for the right mindset. How committed he's been to his schedule. Even right, he doesn't have to do what he's doing anymore at all, but yet he's committed to it. There's a lot of aspects and also just how I think he I know he's such a champion for rights in general, rights of women, rights of those that have their rights constantly inhibited and are subject to prejudice and otherwise. A lot of folks that don't really know him, I think, put him in the category of being a bit prejudiced and it's. It couldn't be more untrue or the opposite. I've always admired that aspect of what he does.

Speaker 1: 45:10

What was the most impactful piece of advice you ever got in your life? I don't know that it was advice or direction.

Speaker 2: 45:18

But getting back to so, my childhood was a bit on the rough side right. My mother passed away very young. My dad I love him to death wasn't necessarily equipped to raise a kid on his own after the death of my mom when I was 11 years old and as a result I became very introverted as a kid and into even into my early years of college, high school, et cetera. And the same guy I referenced earlier, who was just a real mentor for me and still is my best friend's dad. When we had that conversation about career paths he gave me a piece of advice that was I wouldn't say it called me off guard. Didn't surprise me, but what surprised me is my commitment and ability to put it into action. It was all based on his words. It was this this stop being the guy in the background, stop being the guy that takes the back seat, that lets your buddy, who was his son, lead the conversation. My best friend was the most extroverted person you ever met. So it was me being this introverted kid. For so long it was easy for me to be the robin to his batman and be behind and maybe laugh at his jokes, but to succeed in life sometimes you've got to be in the forefront and to get to where you want to be. You've got to be a little bit more aggressive than maybe you're used to. You've got to be willing to take the bull by the horns. That was all. That little piece of advice was all in the interest of me getting after it and taking control over who I wanted to be. And I still remember my first class in that major shift.

Speaker 2: 46:57

The shift in my major to communication arts was called articulation. It was in the communication arts building at Villanova. All I, literally all I had to do was read in front of the, in front of my class, but make sure I was articulating everything correctly. And I was a complete mess. I was nervous, sweating, stuttering, articulating horribly. You probably heard every bit of my silly accent. And by the end of that run I'm presenting in front of 150 people.

Speaker 2: 47:22

Now I present for a living. I present in front of and with very little if any physical sort of realization of nerves or anything like that. Now, I'm used to it. I've got a lot of practice over the years. But it also goes to show you that you can become whoever you want to be. You've just got to be committed to doing it. So something as silly as not being the social like in the social scenario, not being the guy behind the guy, that made a huge difference it was. It gave me something to focus on from a self-improvement standpoint. That again, without that direction, when you say impactful advice, you know I don't know what my career would have been. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 48:01

I couldn't think of a better piece of advice and a better way to conclude this interview. I think that's so impactful and I just want to take a moment to say thanks I know you're busy, I know you've got a lot of things on your plate and to take your time out to do this and to really spread the light to others, because there will be people that listen to this, that will be impacted by your words. So thanks for taking the time and thanks for helping to make a difference in other people's lives.

Speaker 2: 48:32

No, Mike, I'm happy to. I'm glad you asked and we'll do it again in a heartbeat. Just say the word.