Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Stories! As hunters and outdoors people that seems to be a common thing we all have lots of. Join your amateur guide and host on this channel Ken as he gets tales from guys and gals. Chasing that trophy buck for years to an entertaining morning on the duck pond, comedian ones, to interesting that's what you are going to hear. Also along with some general hunting discussions from time to time but making sure to leave political talks out of it. Don't take this too serious as we sure don't! If you enjoy this at all or find it fun to listen to, we really appreciate if you would subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for. checking us out! We are also on fb as Hunts on outfitting, and instagram. We are on YouTube as Hunts on outfitting podcast.
Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Unlocking the Secrets of Coyote Hunting with Decoy Dogs: Austin's Insights and Tactical Tips
Ready to unlock the secrets of effective coyote hunting? Join us on this episode of the Hunts On Outfitting Podcast as we sit down with Austin, a seasoned hunter from a small town near Kansas City, Missouri. With Austin at the helm, you'll gain firsthand insights into the art of decoy dogging and the sophisticated strategies needed for successful coyote hunts. Austin's journey from growing up with hounds to becoming an expert in coyote calling and decoy dogging is nothing short of riveting. Learn about the nuances of coyote behavior, the strategic use of calls, and how integrating a decoy dog can elevate your hunting game.
Curious about what it takes to train a top-notch decoy dog? This episode will guide you through the meticulous process of training Tate, a Blackmouth Cur, from basic obedience to advanced hunting prowess. Austin reveals the tools and techniques that make a difference—like the Garmin GPS collar and positive reinforcement with coyote scents. We also discuss the unique attributes of Blackmouth Curs that make them exceptional hunting partners and invaluable on a homestead. Experience the satisfaction of seeing Tate evolve into a skilled decoy dog, ready for the challenging Missouri terrain.
Finally, we delve into the tactical aspects of coyote hunting. Austin shares his favorite weapon setups, emphasizing the precision of the 6mm Creedmoor and the reliability of Hornady's V-Match ammo. From prioritizing targets based on their behavior to adjusting calling techniques with the seasons, you'll gain practical tips that can transform your hunting experiences. Listen to captivating stories of successful hunts and the unique challenges posed by coyotes with mange. Whether you're a seasoned hunter or a curious newcomer, this episode offers a wealth of knowledge on the strategic and emotional aspects of hunting alongside a decoy dog.
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this is hunts on outfitting podcast. I'm your host and rookie guide, ken meyer. I love everything hunting the outdoors and all things associated with it, from stories to how to. You'll find it here. Welcome to the podcast. Alrighty welcome to Hunt's Unopening Podcast, the only podcast brought to you by Eric's Electric. Let us check your shorts. Thanks, eric.
Speaker 1:I love working dogs, no matter what their job. I am fascinated and always interested in any kind of dog with a job. I myself have working coonhounds and beagles, both hunt. They are extraordinary at doing what they are bred and meant to do and they absolutely love doing it. I have a working border collie. He's my right-hand man on the farm. Whatever I need done, he can help me accomplish it. From herding cows and sheep to going and checking to see if the hogs get out, he is on it.
Speaker 1:Dogs if you listen to a lot of people that are experts in the field would all agree that every dog needs some activity that we call a job or work to lead a fulfilling life. Even if you want a small dog breed, they need work and will act it if their needs aren't met. The good news is there are many ways to satisfy your dog's needs, and today on the podcast, we are going to learn about an awesome thing you can do with your job with your dog. Sorry, that can be a job. This week on the podcast, we learn about decoy dogging. What is it? Who does it? Can you do it? We're going to learn all about that.
Speaker 1:Austin's going to come on and explain the ins and the outs of it, how he got into it. He's a great guy and I think he does an amazing job explaining this pastime that you can have with your dog. It's something we all know using your dogs for bird hunting. We know about using your dogs for rabbit hunting. Well, you can use them for coyote hunting as well. Let's get into it. If you like the podcast, share us out, leave us a rating review, let's go All right. So, austin, welcome to the podcast. I'm really glad that I was looking for somebody to come on and talk about this decoy dog and you reached out to me and I saw your YouTube videos and all that and I thought this is perfect.
Speaker 2:Man Ken, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Yes, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, austin, where you're from and kind of what got you when you started hunting and all that?
Speaker 2:So I am from a small town about 50 miles east of Kansas City, missouri, and uh, it's kind of one of those little farm towns that everybody knows everybody and you just, I mean it's just the typical American small town and uh, I got into coyote hunting without the dogs. Actually. Well, a different way. I got into coyote hunting with hounds as a kid because my dad, from the time I was born until I was probably four or five, had a pretty good pack of hounds, and then some of my family at one point another has always had a few coyote hounds. And then as I got into high school we started playing with the electronic game calls and that really sparked my interest.
Speaker 2:Coyotes have always been kind of an animal to me. That has really been interesting, so to say, because down here it's probably the most common predator in the state of Missouri for us, and I mean we have a few black bears down in southern Missouri, like we get bobcats fairly regularly now. But growing up it was, it was coyotes or nothing as far as predators, and I, uh, I kind of took a little hiatus and didn't do much coyote hunting for a few years and then it started picking up and going a little getting a little bit more interesting around here more people doing it so me and a cousin of mine started getting pretty serious about it another buddy and then the decoy dog aspect came into it here. Over the last two years or so I think everyone's seen at least one decoy dogging video at some point in time on YouTube. I would say it's gotten pretty common now. But there are some dogs out there that are absolutely nuts to watch and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I was like man that looks fun. At first I thought, well, I haven't been calling in very many coyotes, absolutely nuts to watch and stuff like that. I was like man that that looks fun and I at first I thought, well, I'm, I haven't been calling in very many coyotes, I'm gonna get me this decoy dog and this is probably three or four years ago and uh, started figuring out now, two years into having a decoy dog, that you have to know how to call coyotes before you get the decoy dog, because decoy dogs gonna scare off more than he calls it so or more than more than come in I should say excuse me okay.
Speaker 1:So he's kind of like a, a tool, just an added tool, but you still have to know yeah what you're doing. It's not just.
Speaker 2:You set the dog out there and you're gonna have coyotes running in right and where it, where it's uh, where it's either helpful, help, more helpful or a deterrent, is the first time you getotes at 450 yards across the giant cattle pasture and they could see my dog, but my dog couldn't see them and they could pick out that he was running around and kind of doing his thing.
Speaker 2:Well, I finally found what sounded like a trigger to get them to come the rest of the way in. But had the dog not been there, they might have come sooner, or they might have just not come at all. It's kind of one of those things you can't really guess how coyotes think. You just have to kind of say, well, maybe this will work, and kind of be trial by fire type situations. I've had times when they come sprinting in and the minute they see the dogs they pump the brakes and they're gone and you never see them again and it's just the decoying. You have to find the right coyote to get it to work and when you do it's, it's a show you don't ever forget okay.
Speaker 1:So I mean just to back up a bit how do you train? How do you find that? I mean, what kind of breeds of dogs do you guys using? And then, how do you train a dog to do this? Because it looks like there's a lot of training involved and it'd take a very special kind of dog to get to do that.
Speaker 2:It takes a pretty special like a lot of it. You do it based off of genetics. So if you're someone like I was two years ago, that's looking to get into this and you don't know a lot about it, the first thing you want to do if you're going to say, okay, I'm going to get a pup, well, if you're buying a pup, you need to buy a pup that from someone who has a proven genetic decoy dog, because you don't want to just buy a random dog. I mean, granted, I have heard many accounts of people saying, oh yeah, I picked one up from the local animal shelter and trained it to be a decoy dog and it does great, which that very well could be. But with what I did I I did a little homework before I decided this is what I'm doing and I ended up buying.
Speaker 2:I bought a ladner blackmouth Curr pup from a good friend of mine now in the western part of Colorado and I knew I wanted to have the Ladner Blackmouth Curr. Just from a little bit of homework I started doing looking at like typing in decoy or coyote decoy dog on Facebook or Google and just kind of looking through some things. I liked the appearance of the Blackmouth Cur and the more I started reading about Blackmouth Curs and hearing people talk about them online, I found that there was one bloodline in particular inside the breed that was just an absolute standout, all-around, amazing dog. And I had to find a way to justify it for me because, yes, he was going to be a hunting dog but I've got a now seven year old little boy that is an only child and I wanted to find a way to have him have responsibility. So Tate, my dog, is kind of his own dog, so to speak, to where he's responsible for food, he's responsible for water every day, just to kind of give him that, that responsibility and teach him a lesson on things like that.
Speaker 2:But uh, I wanted something. I knew that I would never have to worry about it being high strung and being around my family and taking a chance, somebody getting nipped or bit or something like that. And I also wanted something where, if I go on a hunting trip out of state, I know that I got a protector there at the house that's not gonna let anything happen to my family, kind of give you that peace of mind. And for me, the Blackmouth Curr checked every box and it's just I wouldn't trade Tate for the world. And I've grown to become very good friends with a lot of the people in the Ladner Blackmouth Curr scene and actually even the Ladner family themselves, and I told them where my dog came from and they said, oh, that dog's out of this, this, this, and they could trace my dog's lineage back for two or three generations, just like from a snap of the finger. They knew it and it showed me the kind of dedication that they had put towards it. It's like, well, if they they are this proud of this animal, then this is definitely what I want. And uh, yeah, he is not disappointed. And uh, uh, to jump into the second part of your question sorry to keep rambling on, no worries uh, the the training side of it for me. I said I like to say that the training was easy and looking back at the training, it started from day one like you had to have the structure and all that. But you, any dog, you know how it is, even with running, running beagles and stuff like that. You, you have to put the time in with the animals to get the results you want and I was fortunate enough, it ended up being a huge blessing in disguise.
Speaker 2:I just finished building a house. Well, I did everything inside the house myself. So I would work for three or four months and I'd take a month off, and so that month off I was kind of cheating a little bit. I don't really talk to my wife that much, but I would get up at 5 o'clock in the morning and I'd go hunt for two or three hours and then come back and Tate and I would go over and work on the new house. So I got to kind of have my cake and eat it too, so to speak. But really what it did, it gave me the little bit of time it took to go out and plant a foundation with this dog and I get to jump into the, the training of it. We just we did the basic house training type stuff. I mean, he's an inside dog. He's actually sat here in the garage with me watching TV, just kind of walking around and checking everything out, but uh, so we did all of the house dog training stuff, like potty training and all of that stuff when it's time for bed and where your bed is all that type of thing.
Speaker 2:And then once he got old enough to kind of be more of an independent puppy, it's like a couple months or so. We had some trails behind my parents' house, through the little draws and stuff where we could go and walk. So we'd go walk in the evenings and I would put a Garmin GPS collar on him but I'd also put like a 15-foot piece of string and I'd hold on to the end of it. Well, I'd let him kind of run around and he liked to stay just a little bit in front of us and I'd beat that collar. And every time I'd beat that collar I'd reel him in and give him the treat. It took us maybe two days and he had it figured out. That kind of like a Pavlov experiment. Anytime you hear that beep come back to get a reward, and so before too long was well, turn him out the door and when we need him come back, we're toning. And now it's the only time we really put the collar on him around the house is whenever we think he might go run to go play in the timber in the cornfield. So it's that was like the the main first step.
Speaker 2:And then I had kind of dove into the coyote hunting probably five or six years ago and gotten serious about it to where any chance I could. I was going coyote hunting and it'd be a Wednesday evening and it'd be 90 degrees that day. Well, I'm going to go, wait till right before dark and go coyote. And what I started doing I would cut the tails off of coyotes and dry them out whenever I'd get one when we first came home with tape. So I had three or four of them saved up that were dried out. Well, I treated them like a toy for him. If we were outside I'd let him play with a coyote tail and I got all kinds of funny pictures of him running around with what looks like a little miniature fluffy coyote tail cigar sticking out of his mouth as he's playing while I'm working on the house and it for him coyotes were the scent, was a toy, and so that that foundation was really what set it up.
Speaker 2:But then the hardest part for anyone trying to train a decoy dog is you got to put coyotes in front and I I've happened to kind of stumble into some really good spots and gotten really I'm going to say really lucky, but I've kind of figured it out as well what I need to do to call coyotes. And we just got done with a dry run where we had three weeks where we didn't see a coyote and you would have thought that someone was abusing Tate and I because neither one of us could figure out what the heck to do. But we had, I think last year I killed 52 coyotes over the course from January 1st to January 1st of 2023. And I'd say probably 40 of them were with Tate and I think that really laid the foundation on all of it. And this year it's like we went through the winter Well in springtime.
Speaker 2:In Missouri you're not allowed to hunt coyotes for the month of April, just for turkey hunting reasons a whole bunch of a list of reasons from the Department of Conservation. So after we got done with that month, we dove back into it or Tate and I dove back into it, and it's like he never missed a beat because it's ingrained in him. Now he knows exactly what's going on Anytime we go out and hunt. It's business for him. It's fun to see something that you've put a lot of time into come to fruition, so to speak, to where he sits down on a coyote stand. He sits right in front of me every time and it's like having another, another partner with you hunting that they're in it for the exact same reasons. You are to get the experience, get the show and, at the end of the day, hopefully get a coyote.
Speaker 1:So yeah, no, that's that's great. I mean with the blackmouth cur, just from what I know about the breed, which is limited, but I think they're always kind of set to be the ultimate homesteading dog from treeing coons, moving cattle, grabbing boars. So I mean the fact that you said it's great for the decoy dog, and it doesn't surprise me at all. Imagine what you're looking for with the dog is obviously some brains, but do they need to have a lot of grit too, sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Just not, uh, not real shy and just ready to go after it's high prey drive, yeah, and, and kate's prey drive right now. He's. He's a little over two years old right now and I'm kind of surprised he's not grittier because, knowing all of the breeders now that were associated with his bloodline and hearing stories about how gritty some of them are, he's he's about perfect for missouri because our coyotes, you got a 50 50 with them, whether they're going to be real aggressive or real timid. It's like there's no happy medium with them and he kind of knows how to turn it on, like he can engage really quick If they're going to stick around. He knows how to turn it on and turn it off as far as the amount of agitation he provides to them, because he would love nothing more than to run out there and just start shaking the crap out of them. But it's almost like he's figured out hey, if I run out there and try and catch this sucker right off the bat, he might leave and never come back.
Speaker 1:So I mean they really are that timid because from the videos I've seen, I guess those ones where it sort of works out is the fact the coyotes see it and you call them in and then they see that dog and it's a territorial thing, is why they go after the decoy dog, is it?
Speaker 2:yes, and a coyote is. In my eyes, the coyote is probably one of the ultimate parents like you, think about how you would react if per se, if you heard somebody, a stranger, snatching your kid up in the other room, you're gonna freak to freak out. You're going to run in there, guns blazing, ready to take on the world. And to me, a coyote is the same way. And if you find one of those parental coyotes, it's almost like, oh yep, this one's, it's done deal. We can sit here and do this for an hour if we want to.
Speaker 2:And I've literally had times where I've looked at my cousin Andy and I been like I think we can stand up and do jumping jacks right now and this coyote wouldn't leave, and Andy's 6'5" so he's a big guy to do some jumping jacks. But yeah, they get really territorial, especially in the summertime and around this time of year the pups are doing what a lot of the experts call pup dispersal. Where they're old enough now mommy and daddy kind of raised them and it's kind of okay, it's time for you to venture out, but they're still their babies, so they're going to. They're going to have that paternal instinct to protect. And if you can get them like I tell a buddy of mine right now if I can get them to how to me there's a 90% chance I can get them to come in and kill them because they, if they'll howl and respond. I can either trigger with a pup sound or I can trigger with a territorial response and then the minute I do that I can gauge whether I went the right direction, the wrong direction, and I can go the opposite way. But once you get one to give you that aggressive challenge bark, it'll make the hair stand up on the back of your neck and you know it's game on and they come in ready to fight.
Speaker 2:I've actually one of the first coyotes that Tate decoyed. He went out to greet it as it came, trotting across this open hay field, and he was thinking I mean, with the limited experience at the time, he thought for sure it was going to turn around. He was going to chase it. This sucker squared up and slammed him and he jumped up running for me, thinking, oh, this one's going to get me. And it rolled in a second time. He came to me. Well, he didn't know there's a hot wire in the tall grass right behind me. He got shocked by the hot wire and took off and I didn't know where he went. I just knew he was behind me somewhere with a coyote standing there, and I'm still unexperienced with the decoy dog so naturally, like anyone who calls in a coyote, you shoot the coyote. Yeah, so I shoot this coyote. I'm sitting there kind of looking around toning him and he's not coming.
Speaker 2:Well, the the handheld gps I have, I look and take went to the truck. The truck was about four or 500 yards away. He didn't decide that he was done with this mess. He went back to the truck. I thought I had ruined him for a minute and I went, got him, praised him up which a year old pup he kind of.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that was too soon or not, but luckily enough we got back down there to the coyote and we got over to over the tape, let some anger out on it and, uh, shook on it a little bit and then look up, another coyote come out of timber. We're standing in the middle of hayfield. Another coyote comes out of timber. Well, he takes off and chases it out of sight and it never comes back. But uh, he got a little redemption to kind of feel like he was a tough dog again. But after that he's kind of developed a hatred toward him to where he doesn't, he doesn't let him get close enough to get a hold of him and if he does, the fight's going to be on.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, that kind of yeah, I was going to ask about that. If to him it's sort of like playing or he hates them Like he's, you know, it's an.
Speaker 2:He has a disdain for them, but for him it's a game, it's all a game and his reward at the end of the game is I get to go shake the coyote after you shoot it. Okay, and, and it's almost like, uh, when you do it enough times, he knows what sounds. I'm playing to where there's either a coyote I can see one or there's one already in the field, so it's like you can almost kind of know that, hey, he's gonna shoot this guy out here in a minute. I need to get up here and get ready, and if he watches him fall, he sprints straight at him, just to go shake him and unleash a little frustration on him.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, that's really cool. So he's picked up on certain sounds that you're playing with the electronic caller, that you either AC one or you're getting ready to bring one even closer.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh wow, that's neat. My cousin and I actually laughed at it. Probably about four months ago I had one sound it was a Fox Pro sound called Coyote Pup Screams and I never played it unless I could see a coyote. Well, the minute I would play that sound, tate would go from the seated position. He would sprint straight to the call, loop the call and come back. And the minute he came back he'd spin around real fast and look, knowing that he just ran out there and ran back. So a coyote was more than likely to be on his butt coming back in if he couldn't see it.
Speaker 2:And now I've kind of changed it around a little bit and playing a broader sound base, just because I don't want to use up a few good sounds. And uh, I've always had a command for him. If I could see a coyote, I say the word sick, but I say it three times real quick, and he's sitting right here with me. If I say it he's going to start perking up and getting excited. But he knew that meant it's time to go. It's time to go. Well, he wouldn't always know where the coyote was, because they'll come out and they'll freeze and they're hard to pick up so he'd take off and he'll run out and make a big circle and come back, and usually when he makes that, circle.
Speaker 1:if they're going to work, they work right then and there Okay. And then sometimes it can go the opposite, will it? And they'll see the dog and be like, no, nevermind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've. I've got a video on YouTube right now that's the same. That exact thing happened. Uh, what it was?
Speaker 2:A coyote used the elevation or not the elevation, the terrain to get an angle to where he could see the field, but no one could tell he was there and he was sitting at about 300 yards and all you could see was his head. And I'd already given tate the command. I'd played all the sounds, I went through every option in my library. I thought that would trigger this coyote to come in, and I think this one was a little bit wise to what was going on. But the dog held his attention just enough to stay there.
Speaker 2:And after about five minutes of the dog running around, freaking out and knowing the coyote's not coming any further, I decided, well, we're going to send one and was lucky enough to connect with it. And then we went walking out there. The terrain changed just enough that Tate could disappear over that rise as well and I was like, well, I either hit it or I didn't, because I never could see it fall. And then I get to where I can see tape back. He's over there shaking the snot out of it. It's like, well, we got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so I mean yeah, and there's I'm sorry, go ahead oh no, no, go ahead and there's also been times where we'll call coyotes out and for me around here I've noticed any of them with mange.
Speaker 2:They don't want anything to do with him, which is, I mean, it's good for me because I don't have to worry about the mite getting on my dog and possibly worrying about that, which he gets enough medicine monthly to keep him healthy, so that's not really a concern anyway. But yeah it, they'll come out and the minute he sees me they take off running and if I don't, if I let him go, he'd run them to the next county and they'd never turn around. But most of the time I'll let him run out of sight and if it looks like okay, well, tate's going to get out of sight, I'll, I'll hit the button, just beeping, and he'll wheel around great big and make a loop and come back to me and that's that's when you find out whether they're going to work or they're not. Because that first time that the dog wheels around is what's the the telltale sign for for tate and I anyway okay, you think the ones with mange do that.
Speaker 1:They just know they're weaker and it's. If there's a fight they're not gonna fare too well and I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I almost wonder if it's coincidental. But I mean we're, I want to say I'm. I'm sitting on around 20-25 kills this year and every coyote I've seen with mange is turning ran. So I don't know if it's it's much coincidental or if it is something where they don't think that they are healthy enough for the fight.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, interesting, so with your. So I mean from what I'm guessing. So your setup is you're going out there, you're sitting down, you're putting the call out, tate's sitting with you, and then, when you send, him out.
Speaker 2:So he's trained to stay with you and then at the command he'll out and he knows does? He pretty much just circle around where the call is set up. Yeah, he really I kind of I let him do whatever he wants whenever we get there. And when that first summer I was training him, a guy I met through facebook, through the decoy dogging pages stacy moody helped me with I was struggling for for my tape to see the coyotes when they would come in, and he reached out to me and was like hey, I know how to fix your problem, here's what you do. And so I put about a six-inch long leash on the back of his collar which was made out of just a small piece of paracord, and what that allowed me to do. It allowed me to keep him right there with me and whenever I'd see a coyote I could just kind of grab his head and turn it towards it and then give him the command and once he saw it I'd let him go. And after that I did that for probably, oh, three or four months, and then I just like you know what, I'm gonna quit, I'm just gonna let him kind of do his thing.
Speaker 2:He needs to enjoy what's going on. He's out here for the fun of it too, and uh, so I did, and he can just kind of continue to he go out and explore a little bit. But then he just don't sit down. And every time he'd sit down I always joke with my buddies at a hunt with me that oh well, tate's going to come over here and bang into the tripod, because any time I'd set up a camera tripod, he just body checks it at some point in time throughout the hunt. He'll run up and just put a front leg on it or something like that, and the camera goes wobbling and stuff. But he just kind of ends up sitting right there in front of me.
Speaker 2:And then whenever I were to see a coyote, I'll give him the command and he'll start getting antsy looking around. The minute he catches the movement, it's game on, and in that he will chase them as far as I would let him chase them. But in the back of his mind he knows I'm his out if things get sideways for him, where, if he gets two ranked coyotes, they might work him over a little bit, but he's going to fight him as hard as he can, but his end goal is to evade and agitate, and he's pretty good at evading and agitating so and he, he knows I mean his goal is to is to bring them towards you, just kind of trick them and lure them in to you yeah, and I don't know if he knows that that is his end goal.
Speaker 2:He knows that if he gets him close enough I'm gonna shoot him, but I almost view it as his first thought is well, that's a coyote and I gotta go run it off as a protection thing. Maybe I don't know, and I mean that's my, my thought in it, but also he's done it enough times. He knows, if they get close enough I'm going to bust them right there and let him have his fun.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I mean, I think it's so awesome I have coonhounds and they hunt coon but I mean for you to have a canine working over another canine, you know, and he's one side's with the humans and the other side's just completely wild, but both in that family it and the other side's just completely wild, but both in that family it's just. It's really neat how he's, you know, man's best friend working with you to work against his own species really in a way, just that loyalty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I tell you, it's you got to give credit to these coyotes because they are intelligent animals. Yes, and they, I think they learn faster than dogs do with stuff, because everything's life and death for them, and if they learn the game, they're not going to play the game again.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I was going to ask what they were like there. I mean here, I find them as smart, if not smarter than a big old buck, really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll 100% agree with you on that. I think there's a saying I don't know where it came from or where I heard it but it's to the effect of if a feather falls from the sky, the eagle sees it, the deer hears it and the bear smells it, but the coyote does all three. Yeah, that's cool and maybe it's giving them too much credit, but I kind of keep that in the back of my mind whenever I, from the minute I pull into a spot to hunt to the time I'm done with the hunt, to where, all right, I got to get out of the truck. The door has to shut quietly. I have to get my gear on quietly. If I have to cross a gate, I cross it at the hinges to be quiet as I can.
Speaker 2:My biggest pet peeve is a gate with a chain, because a chain is never quiet on a gate. So I will climb a gate on the hinge side 10 times before I'll ever open a gate once. And then you have to play the wind walking in the entire time you're there. You have to keep the wind as a constant constant in the back of your mind and then, when you got, to limit your movement and not be seen up until, in my opinion, the times the coyote engages the dog.
Speaker 2:Once the coyote engages the dog, I've, I've drawn, I've got a suppressed 22 pistol I like to carry with me and I've actually I think I've killed five now with it and I mean they gotta be close to kill them with the suppressor and, uh, it's. It's been a game. I've picked tripods or gun tripods up, move them out of the way, move cameras spun 90 degrees, spun 180, draw my pistol, set my pistol down. I mean you can almost get away with anything once you get that coyote to engage the dog and the interaction to start. And if you get one that's out there barking and raising hell, the madder and louder it gets, the more you can get away with it.
Speaker 1:Well that's, that's cool. I mean, that's a great saying too. I'd never heard that before. But no, I think that's giving them maybe not even enough credit. They are just so wily, you know wily coyotes, just very, very intelligent. So with the dogs, is it common where you will have two coyotes come in and try to gang up on the dog.
Speaker 2:A lot of it really depends on the time of year. This year in particular has been kind of weird in missouri from, in my opinion, I think we had some some big weather events happened back in the fall that kind of triggered us to have pups sooner this year. So like I actually had coyote pups decoy tate here a month ago with their parents and, and it was odd, but at the same time when you go up and look at teeth and stuff like that, I mean they've they've lost their puppy teeth and they've got their adult teeth but they're still small. So it's okay, these coyotes have been on their feet a while. They know the game, but they haven't been on the on their feet very long because they're still pups and it's long because they're still pups and it's I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's kind of a weird time frame right now because I've had, I've had singles come in and whenever you would think, okay, there should be five coyotes in this general area, it's six, there's plenty of food. Well, I've had, and I've had one come in, but then I've had as many as five come in and the minute that all five of them see the dog, they run out of sight and never return and they're adult coyotes. And I say that because that same group of coyotes. Six months later I called in four of them and killed three of them. Six months later I called in four of them and killed three of them. So and I know it was the same coyote because I wasn't 250 yards from where that original interaction, where they came from. I knew their kind of core area and hunted them from a different farm and it was like they just showed up, oh right yeah, uh.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to ask too along with that have you had it where you've had two, or say three, come out and they're so focused on the dog that you could shoot one and the other ones don't even blink because they're they're after Tate.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, absolutely so. I and a lot of it. What it comes down to is, whenever I shoot, tate will take off and chase the other one if it's still on the seat, and that that actually happened. Yesterday I called in a pair and I found for me personally, if I can figure out, like it's almost the opposite. Like they have the saying, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Well, the squeaky wheel is going to stay there when it comes to coyotes. If he's barking and mad and hair bristled up and just losing it, you let that one sit there and throw a fit because he's not going anywhere. It's the ones that are quiet, kind of standing off in the back looking around, are the ones that if you want to get multiples, you've got to take those down first.
Speaker 2:And I actually called in a pair yesterday that ended up being a small female. She was not a pup, but she was a smaller bodied female and an average size male. Well, they came in and they both worked Tate a little bit, but the male was the aggressor and it's been one of those things where, to me, if you shoot the female first, the male's not going to leave, he's going to leave and he's going to come back trying to find out where that female went. If you shoot that, that male, first, that female's gone. She'll go figure out some other man. She doesn't need him anymore, and uh. So I was lucky enough, I shot the female first and tate ran the male to 450 yards and turned and started to come back and I thought, well, he just ran that one off completely and then, out of nowhere, you see a little speck of fur slipping through the grass again. And here he came right back and I ended up shooting that one at 150 yards.
Speaker 1:Oh wow. What is your weapon setup? What are you using? What's your go-to?
Speaker 2:I've really gotten to where I really like a 6mm Creedmoor.
Speaker 2:Okay yeah, which I don't know if you're familiar with it or not. It's like a .243. Yep, you are Okay. So yeah, it's the same bullet as a .243, but it's able to shoot a longer projectile, so to speak. For anyone who's not familiar with it, and really it's about identical out to about 500 yards, and then from there they say
Speaker 2:it changes. I'm not that good at anything past 500 yards. I've killed one farther than that and I've got enough room I can practice out to 400 yards and crops are out. But outside of that I really don't take very many long shots. My thing is I'd I'd rather them come in close and get them then, or rather them slip off and disappear so I could get out of there and come back and hunt them another day. But yeah, the six millimeter creedmoor has come to be my all-around favorite caliber and uh, it's, if I'm going, I'm taking it. Whether I'm hunting, whether I'm shooting or not, I'm gonna going to let whoever else is shooting shoot it, because I know it like the back of my hand and I don't even have to think about it whenever it comes time to pull the trigger. I know what the holdover is and where. Nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't been around much. I know a little bit about them, but you're saying they're just a little more punch than a .243.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, more uh punch than a 243. Yes, yeah, and they are not fur friendly. With the factory rounds that hornady have, I have not found one yet that is fur friendly, because they will flat lay the hammer to them.
Speaker 1:That's what you're shooting is.
Speaker 2:Uh, is the hornady yeah, I, yeah, they came out with this hornady v match ammo here over. It's really gotten out everywhere here in like the last six months or so and it's it's an 80 grain projectile that is based off of a 108 grain eld vt which is like a match bullet, but it has a a small void behind the polymer tip where it has the core for an 80, a lead core for an 80 grain bullet rather than a lead core for 108. And they're wicked Like. They shoot like a match bullet but they perform like a V-match, so to speak, so they'll transfer a bunch of energy and they'll get a little penetration doing it.
Speaker 2:Where I've had, I've had coyotes. I've shot with the v match ammo, which is 108 grain match bullet, and a lot of times they'll, they'll blow up the minute they hit. And you got to get in there and get, I mean, a coyote. You can, you can devastate them pretty good. They're a fairly frail animal, but you gotta, you gotta get a little bit in there, because if you're pulling the trigger on animal you want to drop and be dead. You don't want it to flop or stuff or anything like that right, yeah, yeah, no, that's uh sounds like a really good setup.
Speaker 1:Whatever gets them down. Yeah, uh, with. So I mean, I'm sure it depends more on the time of year. I I've hunted coyotes, some here but you definitely have a lot more experience than I ever will. What's your go-to call when you get into an area? What are you starting off with? Just to test the waters a bit so it does.
Speaker 2:It does kind of vary for me on time of year. Uh, obviously, when it's winter and there's more harsh conditions, the very first thought is food for survival, but when it's summertime there's always something running around for a coyote to eat, so there's kind of more options as far as food. I'm a big fan of vocals. I'll play vocals year round, but in the winter time I always have a, a prey distress sound of some kind in my back pocket and I've I'm a fox pro guy.
Speaker 2:I really always liked the fox pro calls and when they came out with this msk library and started doing all the stuff that tory cook, the owner of msk, is, he's a genius, in my opinion, when it comes to calling coyotes and the way coyotes behave and, uh, some of the sounds he has has recorded and released are just like, well, turn this on, kill the coyote. I mean it's gonna happen. And it's almost gotten to the point where it's like, well, turn this on, kill the coyote. I mean it's gonna happen. And it's almost gotten to the point where it's cheating, because if you can get them to trigger to it, they're dead okay, so that's worked best for you yeah, and I mean, if you are you wanting particulars on sound, because I'm not above getting information out.
Speaker 2:So mf mfk has a sound called little b hot, which is actually a, a breeding sound, and it's a lone coyote howling multiple times.
Speaker 2:And so if I were, if I were to go hunting tomorrow, there's a 99 chance that I would get everything set up. I'd set my call to a spot where the coyotes would have to come out to see it. I'd put it in like a low spot or a terrace trough in a field, something like that, and I would turn that the howl on, I'd let it howl one time, I'd pause it, count to 10, unpause it and it's got a natural pause in it anyway. So I'm just lengthening it out and I'd let it. I'd do that probably three howls, and I'd set for three minutes and just do nothing. And what that does anything close. Well, they hear a coyote howl three times. They're going to kind of perk up and say, well, what's going on over here? And in my, in my opinion, obviously, when my thought process works on it, and then, um, if they don't respond, or maybe even if they do respond, I'll go into a sound called MFK Sister Pair and it's actually little B is the name of one of Torrey Cook's coyotes. It's little B and another coyote howling together and let it kind of tell the story of oh, I howled, I was looking for somebody. Well, now I found somebody and we're going to howl together, see who else is out there. And a lot of times that in itself just that pair howl will trigger a response, no matter what and when it does. You've got to kind of base off of. I hate to sound like I'm an experienced person in this, but in my opinion I can read, I can read, okay, their response. That was a pretty aggressive response, or oh, that was a kind of I'm over here type of response. Well, if it's an aggressive response, I'll give them a, a challenge, how of some kind back and and just kind of up whatever aggression they give me. If it's just oh, I over here, I'll hit them with another sort of well, it's called sister pair too. So it's those same two coyotes howling again. And from everything I've listened to from the Fox Pro, guys talk and Torrey Cook talk.
Speaker 2:Coyotes can distinguish voices. The way. If you call me back tomorrow, I'm going to know oh, this is Ken, and you and I can pick up a conversation they can trigger. Okay, well, that is this person or this coyote, so to speak. And so if you go from one coyote to a completely different coyote, in my opinion a lot of times you can pull it off and it'd be fine. I mean, probably 90% of people out there would never have an issue with it.
Speaker 2:But around here you got a lot of hunters and you got a lot of coyotes that have heard a lot of sounds. So in my brain what I do is all right, I'm going to stick with this and I'm going to go from there or I'll go back to another sound that is from the little b folder of all the first sounds and howl at them again, but a lot of it. You have to kind of base it off of what you're given. If I get nothing back, I will go into a sound called girl fight, which is two coyotes or two female coyotes fighting, and it's not like a real vicious, so to speak, fight. It's just kind of a back and forth nipping at each other. Type fight is what it sounds like, and a lot of times coyotes kind of socially interact when they first get together and they will kind of nip and fuss at each other From my understanding and from what I've seen, and you can kind of understand where that sound came from and then you just kind of ramp the intensity, the intensity up as you go like. So if you get an aggressive response, well, you want to get more aggressive back, and then they get aggressive again. It's like, well, all right, throw a fight out there, just go full-blown cage match, fight and see what happens.
Speaker 2:And uh, mfk has a sound called pound town, which I think every person who owns a fox pro right now probably has mfk, pound town on their call. But it's one of those ones that it works and you can't burn their ears up to it if they come in and die, so you just keep giving it to them. And that's actually this hunt that I I just did. Yesterday I played a sound called pound town pups, which is a pup fight, because these coyotes are standing at 350 yards kind of goofing around with each other. Well, I play it. They kind of perk up a little bit like, well, they perked up, but they're not coming. Let's see, see if they'll come to this. And I switch straight into pound town, which is pound town is actually two, a male and female coyote that are stuck together and another male comes up to try and fight that male Like they're locked up breeding and two males start to fight and it sounds just like a regular fight but with the yipping and everything and cries built into it, it's pretty chaotic. It starts out kind of subtle, just a little bit of growling by the time it's over with. You know, there's been a coyote fight there and a lot of times they just can't resist it. They come running in and I've probably got 18 or 20 MSK sounds that I will use on rotation and stuff.
Speaker 2:But it's one of those things where in my brain I have to have a library that's deep enough, or like, so to speak, a depth chart for any sort of sporting team event. You want your depth chart to have enough to replace a sound with another sound. To where? Okay, well, I was here two months ago and I played these four sounds and two coyotes came out and I killed one of them. Well, I need to find four more sounds that I can replace those four sounds with that tell the same story or set something up along the same line, but it's not going to be something that triggers in that coyote? Hey, I've heard that before and I got shot at when I heard that right, yeah, yeah, no, it's good I'm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting all the different sounds and just what you said about they know the voices which makes sense, yeah, and and I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't claim to be an expert, but from what I've heard the experts say, I, I take for take what they say for what it is, because this guy spends a lot of time on what he does. And if you're raising litters of coyotes year after year in the wild and can interact with them and there is no fence they just naturally come and spend time around you and interact with you and will do all of their regular activities with you there, you've got to know what you're doing, so you can't really take that to. Oh, he doesn't know what he's talking about, because clearly he does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, here's an age-old question for you with it. How long do you sit until you're like you know what? I don't think this is the spot I'm going to move when you're calling.
Speaker 2:So decoy dogging, it's either going to happen or it isn't, and you'll know within the first probably 20 minutes of hey, this is going to happen or we may as well pack up and I will do. My kind of rule of thumb is I'll I'll stay for 30 minutes, no matter what. When I'm, when I've got hate and I'm trying to dec deploy coyotes Used to, if I was out just going hunting by myself, I would change it up and do it differently. I used to always start with a prey distress sound and I I've actually had more success doing it this way, even without Tate, than I did before. So I mean, I've set, I've killed a coyote at an hour and 15 minutes before I mean, and then I've also killed them at you hit play, you look up and there's coyotes standing there and a lot of times those situations the coyotes were there, they just didn't know you were there and you got a lot tighter than what you expected. But I've had times where I've gotten done.
Speaker 2:I actually here it's been probably four years ago I hunted an evening in the summertime and in missouri it doesn't get dark, dark until about nine o'clock, like you can see to shoot coyotes well into the dark and I went out, picked up the call. I was packing my stuff up and out of the cornfield into the cut hayfield comes a big male coyote. They kind of trot out and looked around and I pull my gun back out of my scabbard on my backpack, set it back in my tripod and kill this coyote. And I looked down and it was 9, 23 and it's I mean, it's fairly dark there, like it's. It's almost dark, dark and with missouri's rules, if there's no other season open per se in your coyote hunting with natural light, you can shoot a coyote at midnight with natural light in Missouri per their rules. Now if there's a deer season open at some time, you have to follow their rules, but in the summertime it's kind of coyote for it. That's about all that's going on if you want to kill something with her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, well, I mean, austin, I can't thank you enough for coming on. This has been a really interesting topic and one that I don't think a lot of hunters are quite aware about doing all this, and it's just a really unique way to deal with some predators and be able to do it with your best friend. Yep, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, no, you go and, yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, no, you go. I was saying it's, uh, it's definitely a fun game to to get involved in and for anybody interested in doing it. You won't regret it because, uh, no matter what, you're going to get a buddy out of a deal. I'm sitting here wagging your tail looking at me right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I think it's. I think it's awesome, just anything with working dogs, you know, and just being. You're not out, you're out hunting and you're spending it. Yeah, like I said, with your best friend, just working together as a team. If somebody wants to watch some of what we've been talking about today, you've got a great YouTube channel if you want to tell about that a little wanted to tell about that a little.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's uh predatory instinct hunting. No, no, no, it's not that is, it is just predatory instincts on youtube. And uh, I say that I I'm not 100 certain because all I have to do is just click on it on my app and it naturally shows up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I check. I was looking at it's uh predatory, predatory instincts.
Speaker 2:Okay, kind of kind of pathetic. I don't even know my own YouTube handle, but uh, but no, it's predatory instincts. And then, um, facebook is predatory instincts as well. And then the Instagram. I'm not real good at Instagram, but I want to say it is the predatory instincts as well, or it's not predatory instincts hunting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's great. It's a great way to see it and you've got some really cool footage of you and Tate kind of doing your thing.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, we've been. I've kind of been packing a camera, well a cell phone, around for a couple years now and I've got a blaze orange tripod that my cousin gave to me because he ordered the wrong color and I thought you know what. I'm taking it anyway, so I'll sit down. I've got everything else will be earth tones, and then I got this bright orange tripod and they don't seem to mind.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's great. Well again, austin. Uh, thanks again and happy hunting for the rest of the summer ken, thank you very much.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you having me on right take care.