Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
Stories! As hunters and outdoors people that seems to be a common thing we all have lots of. Join your amateur guide and host on this channel Ken as he gets tales from guys and gals. Chasing that trophy buck for years to an entertaining morning on the duck pond, comedian ones, to interesting that's what you are going to hear. Also along with some general hunting discussions from time to time but making sure to leave political talks out of it. Don't take this too serious as we sure don't! If you enjoy this at all or find it fun to listen to, we really appreciate if you would subscribe and leave a review. Thanks for. checking us out! We are also on fb as Hunts on outfitting, and instagram. We are on YouTube as Hunts on outfitting podcast.
Hunts On Outfitting Podcast
A Day in the Life of a New Brunswick Bird Hunter For Grouse And Woodcock
Embark on an unforgettable adventure with me, Ken Marr, as we explore the heart of New Brunswick, Canada, on a crisp October morning. Hunting enthusiasts will revel in the vivid imagery of woodcock and grouse hunting through an old apple orchard. Our special guest, Kyle, a dedicated outdoorsman and board member of United Guides and Outfitters of New Brunswick, brings his wealth of experience and passion to the table, sharing his journey from childhood fishing trips on the Miramichi River to becoming a seasoned upland bird hunter with four loyal bird dogs.
Gain expert insights as Kyle and I discuss the transition from traditional guiding activities to the specialized art of upland bird hunting. Discover the intricate details of the habitat and migration patterns of the American woodcock, and learn about the distinct behaviors of resident versus flight birds. We highlight the importance of focusing on the overall hunting experience and delve into practical strategies for a successful hunt, sharing valuable tips on understanding the habitat preferences of woodcock and grouse.
Experience a day in the life of a guided hunt, from early morning lodge pickups to adjusting the schedule based on client needs and weather conditions. Our conversation covers everything from essential upland hunting gear and firearm recommendations to the role and training of hunting dogs. Kyle and I also share our excitement for the upcoming hunting season, looking forward to successful hunts and capturing breathtaking footage of our dogs in action. Whether you're a seasoned hunter or just starting out, this episode promises a wealth of knowledge and an invigorating dose of the spirit of adventure.
Check us out on Facebook and instagram Hunts On Outfitting, and also our YouTube page Hunts On Outfitting Podcast. Tell your hunting buddies about the podcast if you like it, Thanks!
this is hunt sun outfitting podcast. I'm your host and rookie guide, ken meyer. I love everything hunting the outdoors and all things associated with it, from stories to how-tos. You'll find it here. Welcome to the podcast, alrighty. Welcome to Huntsman Opening Podcast, the only podcast brought to you by Fido's.
Speaker 1:Car Scents the air fresheners your pooches love. New scents for this year include wet dog skunk mystery smell from the back lawn. Order now to appease your best friend's favorite smells and keep that tail wagging. Alright, thanks, fido. Order now to appease your best friend's favorite smells and keep that tail wagging. All right, thanks.
Speaker 1:For those of you listening to the podcast for the first time, welcome, if not, welcome back. We ask, if you could, to share us out, leave us a review and keep on. Listening helps a lot. So last week on the podcast, if you're're listening we were in Alberta, canada, on a bighorn sheep hunt. This week we are going to New Brunswick, canada, on a woodcock and gross hunt for another one of our outfitter introductions. So I'm going to try to kind of set the scene here. I guess Now, for those of you listening that have ever hunted roughed gross or woodcock, the picture I'm about to try and paint you may almost be able to smell, you'll be able to visualize it. Hopefully you will be able to remember exactly what I am talking about. To you guys and gals listening that haven't hunted these fast-flying, quick-burst, scare-the-crap-out-of-you well-camouflaged fowl picture this. Close your eyes, unless unless, of course, you're driving. Then please don't.
Speaker 1:It's a cool, crisp morning in early october. The leaves are changing color. You park your truck at the beginning of an old apple orchard. It leads out to a logging road that hasn't been used in some time. You grab your trusty old double barrel 12 gauge shotgun that your grandfather gave you many years ago. The sun has been up for about half an hour nowgauge shotgun that your grandfather gave you many years ago.
Speaker 1:The sun has been up for about half an hour now and you can see your breath as you hike into the old orchard. You take note by the amount of breath. You see that maybe you should be walking year round and not just during bird season. As you get walking through the overgrown apple orchard, all of a sudden you hear a fast, loud beating like drums and to your left a rough gross is taken to flight. You snap your gun up quickly to your shoulder and let your seven and a half inch BBs fly Poof Feathers. You nailed it. You run over and grab the first trophy of the day. As you fan out the tail feathers, you feel blessed and marvel in the beauty of this bird this terrific morning that you're able to go out on.
Speaker 1:Yeah so, kyle, welcome to the podcast. You and I met through this organization here in New Brunswick YouGoNB United Guides and Outfitters of New Brunswick and I could tell more about it, but I might butcher it. You're on the committee. If you don't mind, why don't you take it from here and tell a bit about what that is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I sit on the board of directors for United Guides, networkers and Forensics. It was recently formed and the idea was to how would I put it? To? Uh, how would I put it? I guess it was.
Speaker 2:It was formed with the idea of bettering the outfitting industry for guides and outfitters, both and it was to give representation to everybody, whereas in past there's been a lot, of, a lot of focus on certain species in the province. Like we've always known, salmon's been a predominant thing and bear hunting's always been a predominant thing here, but there's a lot of other things that we have, like a lot of beautiful resources this province has that's not even promoted or well tapped into as it can be, and the organization's there to kind of showcase everything and then be a voice for everyone yeah, just kind of bring the uh, have a resource for the guides and the outfitters to be able to go back to if they have questions or need help with things, and then you know for the clients coming in, just be able to all, all of us work together and create a better experience and showcase what the province has to offer.
Speaker 1:I guess you would say that's exactly it it's.
Speaker 2:It's all about everybody helping each other and being able to show what we have to offer on multiple levels, but it also allows people to learn that might be just barely getting into it and they have questions or they need direction. That's what we're there for is to help send people in the right direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's great. So, kyle, I guess, if you don't mind, tell us a bit about yourself and where you reside.
Speaker 2:I currently reside in Fredericton, but I grew up in the Boys Town, doke Town area on the Miramichi River.
Speaker 2:From a young age I was subjected to salmon fishing with my grandfather because he was retired.
Speaker 2:We spent a lot of time with our grandparents as kids and whenever he went fishing we had to go. We spent a lot of time on the river with him and in the woods. So, yeah, pretty much what I started out doing as a kid because I had to follow him around turned into a love and a passion for the outdoors, uh, which started with salmon fishing on the river and trout and then just snowballed into everything else like gross hunting and into bear hunting and deer hunting and moose pretty much anything I could chase after. Then, later on in life, I had some friends that had upland dogs and I kind of had a keen interest in it. Whenever I came back to New Brunswick after working out west for a little while, I got my first bird dog dog and then from there it snowballed, and now I'm up to four so and I pretty much constantly keep four dogs in the string at all times, and usually there's a puppy rolls in there too. It ends up being five at a time yeah, yeah, there's.
Speaker 1:Uh, they're like chips. You can can't just have one with hunting dogs.
Speaker 2:No, you can't. You can't. If you turn it into not just a passion but a living, like I have been doing recently, then you kind of need to have a good build of a dog string there so that if there's any injuries or anything like that, you still get enough dogs to get you through the days yeah, oh yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:So since we're getting into the dogs right away, you guide for uh, roughed gross and spruce gross and woodcock correct yeah, mostly most clients are looking for woodcock and rough grossouse.
Speaker 2:Not too many are looking for spruce grouse, but predominantly, like I kind of mentioned, I do salmon and everything else. But the market that I'm kind of known for is halfway between the salmon and the upland hunting.
Speaker 1:So with the dogs, what breed do you have and why? What got you into using that specific upland dog? Because I know there's a lot of different kinds. There's your pointers and your flushers and all that, and I don't know much about it but I just know, I guess, the very basics.
Speaker 2:So if you want to get into that a bit, I guess I kind of got subjected to a bit of everything. Uh, through friends. I had friends, I had flushing dogs for pheasant hunting and hunting on pheasant preserves, which I'd done a fair bit, and then they also had English setters and English pointers both. So I kind of got to see a variety of the different dogs and the styles of hunting and I just happened to fall in love with the woodcock and grouse hunting and that kind of steered me towards my first dog, which was an english setter uh, stella, she's eight years old now, and then I got not long after her I get into my first english pointer and then now I've got a three english pointers in the house and one english setter so with that.
Speaker 1:So the pointers, they point, obviously, and then the setters, they, uh, they flush, do they?
Speaker 2:No, the setter, no, english setters are predominantly a pointing dog. Okay, uh, same with the English pointers. Uh, german Shorthair pointers, uh, wirehead Griffins are kind of a versatile dog. They do a bit of waterfowl and a bit of upland hunting, whereas when you get to the Setters and the English Pointers, they're predominantly all just pointing dogs and they're geared straight up towards upland, like Woodcock and Grouse. You get down into the States, you'll get into Quail and other things like that.
Speaker 1:So with the two different breeds that you have what are some, um, I guess, sort of stark differences between the two, like, do they have much of a difference in style of hunting for you?
Speaker 2:uh, it's really dog dependent, to be honest, and a lot of the time it comes down to preference. I know people that they have english setters and that's all they'll ever have. And I know they have English setters and that's all they'll ever have. And I know people that have English pointers and that's all they'll ever have. And then, same with some people have Brittany Spaniels Same thing, that's all they'll ever own. It really comes down to the dog that you like. They do have a little bit of temperament differences, but not by not anything that you could gauge as a reason not to get one for a family dog If you're keeping it in the house with you as well as hunting.
Speaker 1:The, uh, the English pointers. I hear they're a bit uh kind of high strung.
Speaker 2:They can be. Um, they can be. And even the setters, it's the same thing. It's just they're a hunting dog. They're wired to begin with, so they need work and they need exercise and they need to be stimulated in order to play themselves out towards the end of the day.
Speaker 1:So you get a little bit of peace of mind yeah, yeah, no, I can relate to that with the hounds. Um, so do you do your own training with the dogs and just kind of use the older ones to train the younger ones?
Speaker 2:The first few dogs I got came from Robert. One of my setter actually came from a cousin of mine but her training was done by Robert Little in the caddy, probably one of the best trainers in the Atlantic provinces, by or none. And then my first English pointer actually came from him. He was coming back from down in the south of North Carolina in the States where he used to go winter and train during the winter with his dogs field trial. And then I got both my all three of my English pointers that came from Bob, and the last. The first two, coy and then Carly, were trained by Bob. The most recent one I got was two years old. She was partially trained by Bob and then I'm doing the rest of the training myself. Some days I'll go up and I'll spend the day with Bob just to do some fine-tuning and still learn.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah mean there is a fair amount to it, is there not, with training them to point and stay on point, and then you give them the command to go in and flush yep, you can.
Speaker 2:It's really dependent on what you want. Again, there's two really predominant types of dogs. As far as pointing dogs go, um, you have your flushers and you have your pointers, um, but as far as the pointers go, uh, they're trained in two kind of styles and some dogs just don't have the background or the blood line history I guess behind them or they could, or the bloodline history, I guess behind them or they could have the bloodline history, but they might just not cut it for field trials. So it's really depending on what the person wants. You have field trial quality dogs, which are dogs that tend to run big, cover a lot of ground, very strong, running very fast dogs.
Speaker 2:Then you have more of the style, what's called a gun dog, and a gun dog is more of a dog. That's the style of the average person that's going out for a hunt with some buddies and they might only have one dog, they might have two, but that dog is great for that. But it's also a great dog for guiding over, because sometimes you got clients that are not quite as ambulatory as others and the last thing you need is a dog going on point five and six hundred yards down in the woods and then you got to bushwhack it through a bunch of brush to get to where the dog's on point, which is typical more of a trial dog, because they reach out further, cover a lot more ground, but with a gun dog they tend to work closer. So the average gun dog good working range for them is like 100, about 100 yards, 150 max.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I was going to ask that next. Yeah, about how far out they work. Okay, so that's interesting. It's kind of like similar to the beagles, which I'm into. The trial dogs are quite different. They want them fast and just flying along, and all that, whereas the hunting I just want them steady on the rabbit. They don't have to be flying, because they're flying, the rabbit's going to be going even faster.
Speaker 2:so yeah, exactly yeah. You want them with hunting. You want them a little more slow and methodical, a little more time right, whereas the trial you you're on a time limit, you have to. Let's say, on average it's a one hour brace. You got to make it through that full brace in an hour and that dog needs to run strong and run big the whole time yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mean, what made you get into the guiding part of it instead of just doing it for yourself?
Speaker 2:Well, I always kind of I grew up like I said.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a community that was strong and outfitting predominantly all because it was a major salmon river for the world.
Speaker 2:So I guided for those lodges at a young age and I can remember as a kid seeing at one point in time that every time I drove back through Woods Road with my grandfather there'd be some of these outfitters out there with clients from the states and Europe and different places running dogs and looking for birds, and they kind of always resonated with me for a long time.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't until approximately eight years ago that I decided I was like well, I'm guiding salmon fishing, I'm guiding trout fishing, I'm guiding some deer hunting and some moose hunting, and I was like I don't really see a whole lot of people guiding for upland anymore. So I was like, well, it's kind of a good direction to head to get into that market that no one's really tapped into very well for a long time, right, yeah, so, yeah. So, pretty much at that point I was like, if I want to take my love and passion for the outdoors and turn it into something that I can eventually do when I retire, or maybe even before that full time I needed to kind of get into a something that was a bit different from what everybody else was doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, yeah. And then, ian, it's, it's cool to seeing somebody you know doing something like that for the first time. Just seeing you know they're like wow, it's really cool. Or you know, the look on their face seeing the dogs work and things like that.
Speaker 2:It's uh, it's neat to introduce other people to that it is and like 90 of the new clients I get, they all say the same thing at the end of the trip they're like at first it was about seeing birds and getting birds, but by the end of the trip they're. They're actually more amazed by how the dogs work and react and how well-trained they are and just what they do in general.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I mean that's great to hear because at the end of the day, that's more about what the hunch is, you know, is the experience of the whole thing brought together, and then you know the quarry is just the cherry on top exactly that's uh, and that's something I really like to push with my businesses is it's not just about going out and getting as many fish as you can get, or going out and getting as many birds as you can get, or getting the biggest bear, the biggest deer, the biggest moose. It's. It's now it's all about family and it's about the experience that you provide to people, and I find that generally brings people back more than just numbers.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. So could you explain a little bit for those listening what the woodcock and the partridge or rough grouse, what they are and where they like to live?
Speaker 2:So I'll start with woodcock first. We have our resident American woodcock that stay here pretty much from like depends on how early the spring is and how quick the snow is gone. The birds will migrate up from down the southern states. Some of them will go down as far as like pennsylvania and kind of hang out. It just depends on the winters and how cold it gets, how far they go.
Speaker 2:Um, they'll come back in here in april I've seen them as early as the end of March before as well and they'll stay all summer and then that's what we call our resident birds. So they're basically birds that are in a certain area. They'll go to that area and they'll stay there all summer long, right up till fall, until they get ready to migrate. And then, closer to fall, when they get ready to migrate, you'll hear people say they'll talk about flight birds and basically all that is is they're birds that could be from New Brunswick, but they might be living or resided all summer long and all early fall in the southern part of the province and then they're starting their migration path to head towards the states, and when they do, that's when you'll hear people reference. Oh, I started seeing my covers full of light birds. So, as far as covers goes early on and right through the summer where it's hot stuff like that, typically you'll find those birds near brooks where there's a lot of alders.
Speaker 2:They like really thick, dense vegetation, alders and popples, young maples, young birch that's kind of their favorite stuff and they stay in there because it's a real dense canopy and it creates a good cover for them from predators like hawks and eagles.
Speaker 2:But it also creates ground that is conducive to easy feeding, so that ground's soft, there's worms, there's grubs, that all tend to hang out in that softer ground. Right, it's easy for them that drive that big, long beak into the ground to get the feed a little bit later in the fall. When I talk about flight birds moving, you'll start seeing those birds moving away from the waterways and more up into perfect examples an old clear cut that's growing up when it's about roughly anywhere from five to eight years old depends on how quick the vegetation is growing, but when those alders and pawples are getting up there about anywhere from 10 up to 20 feet, that creates a perfect amount of cover for them when the foliage is on and that's kind of where they tend to hang out at that point. And then as they migrate and the fall gets a little bit later, towards the end of October, into November, you'll still see them in those cuts and areas.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, they're really small too and they camouflage incredibly well, but I mean, how heavy would you say they are?
Speaker 2:oh, I've never, actually ever weighed one, to be honest, but I'd say they, I'd say they'd be. They're about half the size of a grouse, quarter to half the size of the grouse a morning dove size?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, kind of like a morning dove size, but sometimes even smaller.
Speaker 2:Your females are, you tend to be bigger than your males and then, as far as, like you were talking about cover and the comparison, uh, grouse will still hang out in some of those same covers that you find a woodcock in and later into the fall and then even into the summer.
Speaker 2:But uh, typically if I'm looking for grouse covers I'll look for a little bit older hardwoods, especially birches, and if you get anywhere where you got older trees at border or any hardwoods at borderline to softwood stands, they like that borderline of those. They also like the borderline. And when you got hardwoods that comes into a clear cut, they really like hanging out of those. They also like the borderline of when you got hardwoods that comes into a clear cut. They really like hanging out in those edges. So I'll focus more on that. If I have a hunter that's looking specifically for grouse and the other one is old farmland or old orchards, old apple orchards that are growing up, not farmed anymore, and any farmland that has hedgerows in between, especially if they're kind of thick with bramble berries and high bush cranberries and stuff like that, you'll see the grouse hanging out around those quite a bit.
Speaker 1:That's the stuff I'll focus on more if I got grouse hunters and that's usually later in the season, like first week of november on through the first week of december- right, yeah, and for those listening to the gross, they do not migrate, they're here year round and you can get, you know, an okay meal off of you get you know a handful of them, but they're, they're quite a bit bigger than a woodcock, I find, and they are tasty too, but and they're camouflaged really well too and they're the ones you know that they scare the hell out of you sometimes when they just, you know, just beat their wings, it's just like that seems like a machine gun going off or drums or something, and uh, yeah, can really take you by surprise, definitely, definitely. I find too, when they flush, they just kind of take off, or do you find that? I've been around woodcock a whole lot but they seem to go like up in a way, but they don't go as far uh, yeah, typically it just depends, really depends, if the bird's tired or not.
Speaker 2:Like with woodcock, is their migratory bird right? It's a little bit later in the season and they're migrating or flying. A lot of the time the dog, like your dog, will go on point and then you'll flush the bird and then the bird might fly 100 feet away or whatever and drop back to the ground again, especially if it's a flight bird that's quite tired. If you get earlier in the season when it's mostly your resident birds, they take off the ground just like a missile, pretty much head straight up and then hit the treetops and go horizontal now with the dogs.
Speaker 1:Can you, when they take off, are you able to find them, or do you find their moat? They go up in trees, then, or is it 50 50 whether they go in a tree or whether they go back on the ground?
Speaker 2:they typically will all go back to the ground. Woodcock always go back to the ground. They typically will all go back to the ground. Woodcock always go back to the ground. They never go to trees, grouse they'll. At 90% of the time they'll head right back to the ground again.
Speaker 1:So can your dogs. What's the success rate? I guess, after you guys flush one, hunters miss say can you get back on that one?
Speaker 2:or If you cover the area enough typically woodcock, I've seen them get back on that one. Or if you cover the area enough, typically woodcock, I've seen get back on woodcock again for sure, okay, yeah, yeah. And then pirate bridge is really dependent on how far the bird goes, and if you end up have to cover it a little bit later, longer that bird sits there, a bit more, it's more time for the scent cone to kind of spread out around where the bird's sitting. So it's more of a chance for the dog to pick up the scent, whereas if the dog or bird just barely landed, there's really kind of no scent there. I guess a way to explain it for me or for you would be kind of like sitting in a leather chair. The longer you sit there, the warmer it gets, right, yeah, okay. Whereas if you first sit down it gets cold. It's cold, there's nothing, there's no body heat transferred to it. So it's kind of the same idea as far as body heat percent goes with birds.
Speaker 1:Hmm, yeah, that's a good way to put it. I hadn't heard it explained like that before, but it definitely creates a good visual picture and makes sense. Yeah, a good visual picture and makes sense. Yeah, exactly. So on the hunt I mean hunters that are coming to hunt with you what do we look? If you could walk us through a hunt like what's to be expected, what's how the day's?
Speaker 2:kind of starting out and going, typically because most falls are usually on average are cool. So on a normal fall day we usually pick people up around eight o'clock in the morning from the lodge uh, we'll go out, we'll hunt four hours in the morning, we'll break for lunch. Some people like to leave the woods and get a break. Some people like to stay in the woods and I'll do lunch or get in the woods for them break for however long they need and then we'll go back to hunting again for another four hours or so through the afternoon, usually done by 5, 30, 6 o'clock um last year early. It was unseasonably hot, even right to late. So what I did that last year was I hunted the morning until about noontime and then when it got really hot, like up in the 20s, then I'd break for the afternoon and then we'd go back out in the evening until dark.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I'm sure the dogs they won't stop, if they're any you know hunting dog worth anything, they won't stop, eh, but they'll, just no, they'll just no, they'll, they'll, they'll just keep going till they drop. Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's an issue. They don't know, uh, they don't know when to quit.
Speaker 2:I mean, it makes for a good dog, but, yeah, as long as they have good owner that knows when to uh to pull them yeah, and like as far as the day goes, it's, it really depends on the client and and what they want, like whether they want to focus more on woodcock or if they want to focus more on grouse. It changes kind of where I go to focus on one more than the other and also how well a person gets along. So if someone has a little bit of trouble walking or anything like that, I'll tailor it. I have certain covers and places that I know that if it's harder walking for someone like they can't get older and they can't get along as good as someone younger, then I'll actually head. I'll save those covers for those instances and head there.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean the birds flush. I mean sometimes so quickly and you know, out of nowhere in the thick cover, someone doing it for the first time and thinking like I don't know if I can hit it. I mean, what would be the skill level, you would say, for someone to have a successful day?
Speaker 2:I've seen beginners hit a pile of birds their first time and I've seen people that are experienced not hit a bird all day. Yeah, so it's really. It's really. You can't really gauge it, I guess, to be honest. But now there's, like you have a really experienced hunter that they typically will hit. They have a pretty good success rate of what they hit.
Speaker 2:A lot of it, a lot of it sometimes just purely comes down to how the bird flushes, like the dogs, like my pointers. They'll point a bird and I walk up. We'll find the dog where it's on point. I run a bell on my dogs some people don't, I, most people are doing a lot do, and I also run a GPS caller along with the shot caller and the bell is a general idea that I know. If I hear the bell, they're within about 200 meters if I can hear it. If I lose hearing the bell, they're usually stretching out to right on that 190 to 200 meter mark where I can stop hearing it. Okay, um, most of them, they kind of get to that, stick at that point anyway and don't go any further. It just depends on if you keep on them and keep them reamed in. Um, so once a dog goes on point.
Speaker 2:If I can't really tell a hundred percent because of vegetation is really thick, I'll follow the GPS collar and it will take me right to where the dog is. I'll kind of, as I'm getting close to the dog, I'll be looking to see. Okay, what way is he pointing or what way is he looking? Is he pretty rock solid or what does he look like? He's kind of flagging the bird a bit or his tail's wiggling around. He's not quite sure. Most of the time they're locked on and they know right where that bird's at, so you can bird's at, so you could pretty much tell most of the time that with what way their face is pulling, that usually that bird's in front. Some, yeah, sometimes in the odd time they're behind, but mostly it's always in front or a little bit to the side. And then what I'll do is I'll actually send my client ahead in front of the dog and you kind of kick the bushes and flush the bird and then they shoot the bird or shoot at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they pull the trigger. It leaves over the bird, but something's getting hit with BBs, I guess.
Speaker 2:And then my dogs as well are trained. They stay broke, they don't. Even when the shot's fired, they don't move, they stay still, oh wow, they don't. Even when the shot's fired, they don't move, they stay still. Oh wow. So, and that's kind of a it's more because I field trial my dogs. So in field trials they want them to stay broke, to wing and shot all the time. I do get a younger dog right now I'm actually kind of she's turned, she's not going to be a trial dog, she's going to be more of a gun dog. So actually I'm going to train her so that hopefully she'll uh, after the shots fired she'll go find birds for me and retrieve them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to ask that too. The pointers do. Do they retrieve?
Speaker 2:Not all of them will sound like. This dog here naturally wants to. I've never taught it to her. Um, she's not really. Yeah, and that could be genetics. It's just some dogs. Some dogs just aren't gonna fetch for you. That's just the way they are. But uh, she's not going to be trial quality and she's going to be an awesome gun dog. She already is so and she naturally wants to go grab a bird and bring it back to you. So I'm kind of going to just take advantage of that and go with it yeah, yeah, why not?
Speaker 1:um, do you find that some guys have your clients have preference towards, uh, woodcock, or or does it matter?
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely. But right now, I would say, about 80% of my clientele are specifically looking for Woodcock.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to guess that.
Speaker 2:Could you tell us why? I think it's just purely numbers and challenge. So for comparison, on average last fall our average day was around 50 to 54 flushes of woodcock. Oh wow, versus grouse might be anywhere from 8 to 15.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it mostly comes down to a numbers thing. And the challenge woodcock are just super, super hard to hit. Like I say, they're just like a little missile when they come off the ground and they are much smaller.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're really hard to hit. You're right there yeah. So when people are coming to you, what's some clothing you'd recommend? And then I want to get into kind of the guns and the ammo but I guess clothing first for sure.
Speaker 2:Uh, I always recommend, like when people are coming, bring clothing for all types of weather because with upwind, like last fall, typically in the first few weeks of october, as you might know, running your dogs on an average fall it's it's usually cool in the mornings, right and cool right through the day, whereas last year, like it was in the 20s, by 11 o'clock in the morning oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I always tell people come prepared, because you could have a day where it's cold or you could have a day where it is extremely hot. So I recommend bringing good, lightweight leather boots so those are for more for your days that it's a little bit warmer out. Your feet don't aren't going to sweat on you. Bring wool socks so you and bring changes of socks so if your feet get wet or sweaty throughout the day you can change them out. Tell them to bring rubber boots in case it's raining or you get wet ground.
Speaker 2:Some mornings you get the dew settling on the ground and a leather boot just doesn't cut it. It just doesn't keep fully waterproof for the whole morning or day. And then, if they have them or they're a seasoned hunter, I tell them to bring briar pants or upland pants. They're just designed that they're extra pleated on the outside to protect yourself from thorns and raspberry bushes and all that. They're not poking you in the legs. And then, as far as coats and stuff, like I said, I kind of stick to the same deal. As coats and stuff like said, I kind of stick to the same deal. It's bring something lightweight for warmer days and then bring something that's waterproof, in case it rains or it's cold just a bit of variety, and you're going to be in thick stuff too, so just you know, like you say kind of, yeah, yeah, and if you don't have like gear that's designed towards off-land hunting, um, something I always recommend to people is, uh, carhartt pants.
Speaker 2:Yeah, carhartt are a stronger material so they tend to keep stuff. I ran Carhartt pants for years until I started building my stock of upland pants and uplanding gear for guiding.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Carhartt Um, yeah, yeah, and then, uh, pants and uplanding gear for guiding shout out to carhartt. Um, yeah, yeah and then uh, so just be prepared, basically but yeah, you pretty much what?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's really you flip a coin because you just don't know and it's better to be prepared and have it with you than not have it at all yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Um, and then with the guns and ammo. I mean I know it's probably similar to rabbit hunting. Remember rabbit hunting? My last gun that I got for it was a 20 gauge over and under, and I said, uh, I got it and it's supposed to be the 26 inch barrel gun.
Speaker 1:and I said this he got it to the box for me at bass pro and I said this is the 26 inch, right? He said, uh, it might be the 28, doesn't matter. I'm like it does actually quite a bit to me anyways. Yeah, I, you know short lightweight it makes a difference.
Speaker 2:If I. I like to. Honestly if you, if you're running a 26 inch barrel and a 20 gauge or a 28 gauge is my preferences for both. I like the 28 and 20 both. Uh, lately I'm using my 28 more. If you're new to it I recommend going with the 20.
Speaker 2:Most of the time for woodcock I just use skeet shot. It's got a little faster velocity. It's got a little bit more spread to it, because the woodcock come up in those dense vegetation Usually if you don't hit them in that first bit when they come up, you're not going to get them on the long shot. As far as gross go, I usually recommend if someone's got a 20 unit barrel or they got a 26 and they just change the choke tubes of patterns in a little more for a longer shot, and I like running number 6 or 7.5 for gross, whereas the woodcock is typically like running number six or seven and a half for gross, whereas the woodcock is typically like the number eights and seven and a half, but if somebody's coming to you and plans on spending a week upland hunting, you wouldn't recommend their waterfowl gun.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't recommend it. I have client guns myself, some. There's a lot. There's not a lot of outfitter doing this anyway, but, um, I keep client guns. I have 28 and 20 gauge. So someone doesn't have one or they only have 12, and I got something that they can use. If they're really adamant about bringing their 12 gauge, then what I'll do is suggest them getting skeet shot like number nine. Okay, and just run on a two and three quarter shell, something that's not going to hit them too hard, blow them all apart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I mean that's what you'd recommend for people coming. It's just a shotgun that you know 20, 28, lightweight short barrel. What about 410? Do you find that for Woodcock? Is that going to cut it?
Speaker 2:There's some of the hard, hardcore guys will run a 410, but I don't see it very often. I've only seen one guy run a 410 in the years I've been doing it and he's traveled all over the world hunting Woodcock, so it was just kind of more of a challenge thing for him. Yeah, that's neat.
Speaker 1:Well, kyle, I really appreciate you coming on and telling a bit about this and for those looking to uh, to go on a hunt with you in New Brunswick and experience you know, our vast wilderness here, in the abundance of upland birds and other wildlife.
Speaker 2:Where can everyone get a hold of you? So my business is Fins and Feathers Outfitting. I have a web page online. I have a Facebook page, fins and Feathers Outfitting, as well as Instagram, fins and Feathers New Brunswick. All my contact information is on all of those pages that you can get a hold of me at and that's going to tell them about lodging season dates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it gives you most of the information. Usually I recommend people contacting me just because of the dates usually fill up quite fast. That way I can get a better gauge of what people are looking for as well.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, Kyle, I appreciate you coming on. I look forward to seeing some successful hunts this year and some hopefully some videos of the dogs working, and I wish you the best of luck in this upcoming season.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thanks for having me on, Ken and and we'll be chatting soon.
Speaker 1:Sounds good, see ya.
Speaker 2:Take care.