Kelly Gordon on Transforming Disability Inclusivity in the Creative World | Empowering Voices

Join me as for this episode of the Rights Upfront podcast as I speak to Kelly Gordon, a wheelchair user, mother, and a trailblazer in advocating for disability inclusivity in creative industries. Kelly shares her transformative journey from the competitive world of football to becoming a voice for change in advertising and creative production.

 Episode Highlights 🎙️
- Kelly's path to becoming a Creative Director at Hot Octopus and CEO of her creative production agency, With Not For.
- The challenges and triumphs of navigating life with spinal muscular atrophy.
- The intersection of identity, disability, and sexuality, and how open communication fosters authentic relationships.
- Celebrating the strength of the disability community and the importance of platforms that amplify diverse voices.

Chapters 🔊
(0:00:06) Advocating Inclusion in Creative Production
(0:11:48) Journey of Self-Discovery With Disability
(0:20:27) Embracing Identity and Overcoming Challenges
(0:33:40) Empowering Disabled Voices in Community


What to Expect 🌟 
Prepare to be moved by Kelly's candid revelations and the life-affirming impact of community support. This episode is not only an eye-opener to the struggles faced by individuals with disabilities but also a celebration of the collective power when voices unite for change.

Connect with Kelly:
Follow Kelly Gordon's work and join her mission to reshape perceptions of disability and champion authentic representation in the creative industry.

https://www.instagram.com/mskelgee/

https://www.instagram.com/wnfcreative/

#DisabilityInclusivity #CreativeIndustries #EmpoweringVoices #KellyGordon #WithNotFor #RepresentationMatters #AuthenticStories #Podcast

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Transcript

00:06 - Kelly (Host)
Kelly Gordon. I am a full-time wheelchair user. I'm 35, I've got two kids. They're both boys, so my house is pretty wild. I am creative director and brand director at sex tech company Hot Octopus, and I am co-founder and and CEO of a creative production agency With Not For and what is the hope for with not for? 

00:34
so for with, not for, I think, the hope for us at the moment. I mean, we we're very creative people like I'm. Obviously I've got background in creative direction and business as well in in my past life being in the football industry. Um, Emma, my co-founder, she's got a background in advertising, um, so we're both very creative, um driven people, um, and so now, with not four, is kind of morphed into this uh, amazing space in creative production where we're advising ad agencies, big brands, all about representation, inclusion and obviously providing with the talent as well. 

01:13
So we've got three kind of sectors that we've split up into this year, which is training, talent and content. So with the training, it's called, so we basically we go into brands and we um do something called interaction training, um, so it's not, you know, talking about language don't say this, don't say that. There's like an element of it but it's more about basically how to just talk to disabled people, like people, um, it sounds so stupid to even say it like that, um, but honestly it it's kind of like just teaching by showing people how we function on a daily basis, showing people a bit of our story. So we really enjoy doing that. Um, the talent side kind of goes without saying. We represent so many amazing disabled talented creatives, um, and also freelancers in other aspects, you know copywriters, social media assistants, people like that as well. 

02:17
Um, and then the content again it comes back to like my love of creativity and storytelling. Um, so brands commission us to make films, um with them, whether it's about disability or not, but bringing lots of different lived experience and diversity into the equation to make like really compelling and interesting stories. Um, so it's really changed over the last sort of I'd say, year, year and a half, and we've finally got like momentum and understanding as well of who we are as a business and like what we want to achieve going forward and I can hear the passion when you're speaking, like it just radiated what, for you, has been the kind of defining moment in your journey that's kind of changed your perspective on disability and how we should do more to advocate oh, that's hard, I think. 

03:07
Like for me, like the, the catalyst is supposed to starting with, not for, and like I suppose a defining moment would be when I did work in sports, um, it was such a male-led, image-driven industry. So I started in sports concierge, which was essentially working with professional footballers to provide their lifestyle needs. So whether that be booking a holiday, buying a car, finding a house for them to move into, getting them into a gig, like it was all lifestyle based. It can be very. It was very kind of image driven. Like I say, we were doing things like product sourcing, so finding the latest handbag or trainers, and it was very, yeah, image based. 

03:47
Um, so being like a girl in her early 20s when I was in that world, especially a disabled woman, it was super difficult for me because I always felt like I didn't fit the mold. I didn't fit the image of what, um, a luxury concierge should look like. But ultimately that drove me some amazing clients, because there were clients, of course, that didn't fit that mold as well, and people that were, you know, just people in their own way. You know, we put stars and footballers on a pedestal sometimes, but they are just people as well. So I do think that it made for a really good relationship there. So, anyway, I think, feeling like I didn't fit in, feeling like, you know, I had to be myself to pull through and to to make this business work, that was one factor, um, and then I went into football in another way, as a CEO of a football club, and that was that was difficult, um, working with a lot of older men. I've been in the industry for a long time, obviously, going in the CEO of the boardroom table and and and kind of feeling like you know, there was all these things that people were thinking like, you know, oh, she got here, she, she's only here because, you know, she bought the shares. She's only here because, like, my dad is big in football, my dad's a football agent and he was a professional footballer as well. So it was always that link back to my dad is big in football, my dad's a football agent, um, and he was a professional footballer as well. So it was always that link back to my dad. 

05:09
And that was so frustrating to me and it's something that I've battled with internally for a long time is doing things in my own right, making people, you know, almost I worry a lot. I think a lot of people worry about public perception and that was something that plagued me for so many years is, you know? Oh, people just think this about me. They don't like, they don't, um, you know, think that I've done this on my own and that's really important to me and now I'm just like f**k it literally, like it was such an awakening moment for me. It was like, no, I've got my company. Now I'm doing it just like you know, just all about me, all about me and Emma, our brand. I mean Emma's had her own experience in similar ways working in advertising for 10 years. 

05:52
There's a way that things are done. There's a certain person that rises to the top, and so now me and Emma have got our own space. We're loving it, like we are literally. Everything we do is all authentic. It's all us are. Literally everything we do is all authentic. It's all us. 

06:07
Um, you know we back our own opinions and especially in disability, that that can be tricky because there's so many perceptions on language that should be used, shouldn't be used. 

06:14
Um, you could talk about it till you're blue in the face. You could argue about it all day. You've got disabled people that have got opposing opinions, because it's all about lived experience. It's not what word is right and what word is wrong, like language evolves every day, um. So I think the fact that we've got our identity and we're able to, you know, move forward with that identity now it's where we're kind of seeing that success and that happiness in our own careers as well, because we can be authentically ourselves, take it or leave it, and obviously that's a very privileged position to have. But I'm just glad that we've all got to this point in our journey where we can be like OK, actually this is what we want to do, these are the people we want to represent and these are the people we want to work with, and that's simple, that's it we want to represent and these are the people we want to work with and and that's simple, that's it. 

07:13 - Chandy (Host)
I love what you're saying and the way the the idea itself, like. It's so, like not just empowering to say, like, use disability to fill a box or to have it as a a quota that you have to like, admire to achieve. It's actually it's embrace disability and make a part of the conversation and the elements of the organization as a whole. And I just love that. And I think something I've spoken to a lot of people about in these interviews is that social model of disability and how it sounds like what you're trying to do is not just see disability as a problem but see it as the solution. 

07:44 - Kelly (Host)
Realistically. Yeah, and I think the thing is as well. Disability is the solution to so many things. It's. It's literally, you know, the answer to how we get out of these boring creative roots that we are in. We welcome not just disability, but diversity as a whole. No wonder advertising has been the same for so many years is because the same people are making the decisions and the same people are pitching the same ideas over and over again and there's no new stories, there's no new faces. 

08:16
Um, so to have an opportunity now to change that and I think that's what we're both running at is is to make a real change, and I know it sounds so like it sounds like a big thing to make a real change, and I know it sounds so like it sounds like a big thing to make a real change in the world. But I honestly do believe now, for the first time, that we can do that. Um, when it comes to representation, because we're on the way and people are ready for it now, and people need to see it like. How bored are we all of the same every single day? And and just getting these people on with different perspectives, like I say, whether that be about disability or what you know, whatever comes through your life, and being so honest with the storytelling, I think that's what we need to to really change things and to really make a difference. 

09:04 - Chandy (Host)
When you, when you spoke about that, I was reminded of the campaign that was launched at the time of recording this. It was a week ago the for dance syndrome day oh my god, it's just ah. 

09:17 - Kelly (Host)
Like I can't even say how good that is, like I, literally I just loved it and I and that is the kind of thing that we are trying to do, you know, tell these stories that are real and like I mean all of it in the video should have been obvious that that person wants to go and live their life as they want to live it, and the fact we're having to spell it out is a shame, like in society, it's a shame. 

09:42
But the fact that they did it in such an amazing way, the way it was executed and the actress, her bloody charisma, just like I mean. I woke up, I saw it on my phone straight away because I feel like everybody was sharing it that day, like it was like ding, ding, ding, um. But when I saw that I was, I smiled so much because I just thought, finally, like people are starting to get it and oh yeah, honestly, I don't know, I don't know if there was any negative things that were said from the community about that film, like I didn't see any personally. If there was, I would love to hear because I think, yeah, the way they smashed that story out and that actress's portrayal oh yes, love it, love it anyone who's not aware, it's a campaign video. 

10:30 - Chandy (Host)
It's it about assuming and saying like if you assume this about me, it's gonna become a reality. So just assume that, like she can drink a margarita, or assume that she can, she can recite Shakespeare and stuff like this, and it's really impactful and powerful. Yeah, one thing that I think I've I've learned about disability since I've I mean, I've always been a part of the community, but it's only the last four or five years I've really embraced it and. 

10:56
I've been working on like creating like a social media agency to help accessibility be at the front, the forefront of the conversation when we look at digital accessibility and social media reach. I met you through a conversation around relationships and disability. How has kind of your understanding of like disability impacted not just like romantic relationships but the relationships that you have with other disabled people? 

11:27 - Kelly (Host)
oh, are we talking? What type of relationships are we talking here? 

11:31
just like, just so I can answer it correctly, just like my relationships so do do romantic relationships first okay, right, okay, well, actually I can kind of, I can kind of handle both in the same, so let's go for it. Um, this is where it gets interesting. Um, so I, yeah, from a like, so I've been in a wheelchair like full time since I was 11. My condition is spinal muscular atrophy, which is progressive. So with things like puberty, you know, you're getting much taller, things like that body changes, your condition progresses quite rapidly. So I went from walking around my very small primary school to then being in an electric wheelchair full-time, because the school I was in as a high school was far too big, and you know, for me to walk safely. Um, and, yeah, I became a full-time electric wheelchair user, um, which was always going to happen. Like you know, it wasn't anybody's fault for putting me into a bigger school, it was just my body. Literally those two things happened at once and my body just couldn't do it safely anymore. Um, and, by the way, I tried, like I, uh, I used to try and get out my chair in classes, but it was getting to the point I was falling over and I couldn't get back up again. It was like an ongoing battle and a struggle with me at that age like trying to understand my disability, trying to understand the progression and then trying to understand how I kept an image in front of all my other classmates because I was in a mainstream school. I was the only visibly disabled person in the school, um, and they actually had to install ramps and lifts for me to start at that school. So I think I was probably the first um, you know student with the mobility age that they'd ever probably had before Um. So yeah, it was very difficult. 

13:23
I remember being in the school, um, in year seven. I remember going around in my wheelchair I'd do silly things like take my foot plates off and let my legs dangle so that people knew that my my legs could move, and and I just almost thought, like, why am I doing all these things? But at the time you know you don't realize that you're doing them and that it's making you look like you're trying to conform, it's making you look quote unquote more disabled because you're putting yourself in the position without the things that you need. Um. So anyway, I had an ongoing battle with my own image, with how I felt about disability. I didn't know any of the disabled people apart from my own brother, um, who has the same condition as me. 

14:05
Um, and obviously, at home and in the home environment and growing up, it was our normal. So for us we just felt like a huge part of mainstream society and we are we aren't any different like, but you know, we went through that journey where we felt quote-unquote normal. Then we were put into a big pond where we felt very abnormal, um, and then we realized again that we, we were quote unquote normal. Um, so it's, yeah, it was a huge journey. I promise there is a point to this um, um, so, yeah, going through all of that and um, obviously, being a young girl, like a teenage girl, um, one of the first things I thought is sexuality and desirability are normal. 

14:55
And you know, if I can prove that I am attractive and I can have relationships with non-disabled people, then that makes me, by proxy, part of their world. So it's a very fucked up thing to think at a young age, but I literally that was my driving force then. I was so, so, so interested in sex, so, so interested in relationships, and I'm talking like 14, 15 years of age and for me now, as someone who has kids, uh, like you know that are set nearly seven, four. You think of them. They're so young. Obviously, family and friends have kids that are around 14, 15. You look at them now and even with like tiktok and social media and the way they act, they're still children. 

15:47
So to me, looking back and thinking of me at that age, like I would be on Internet chat rooms all night to men that were much older than me. I would be pursuing relationships and sex with people that probably, like, did I even want to, like who knows in all that mess what I was doing and why? But I mean, ultimately I wouldn't change anything. You know it's a sex. Sexual sexuality is still a huge part of my personality, um and my you know my career now, which is great. So I think taking all those learnings and applying them to my career um has been huge for me. Like it's been like a full circle moment again where I look at all perhaps mistakes that I made or things that I wish I'd known, and then try and put those out there for other people as well that might be going through similar journeys. 

16:39
Um, but ultimately I think I've always been okay and, like, in the relationship world I've always kind of I don't know whether it's just the type of people I go for or like. There's always that deeper connection and I think, like growing up, I also have realized that putting yourself out there completely, um, you know, if you're comfortable showing your disability, um, and taking people on that kind of journey with you has always helped for me, like I've always been upfront and honest about what I need, how my disability affects me in certain ways, if it does or if it doesn't, and just like letting your personality and you know the real you kind of shine through. Yes, disability is a part of that, but it's not, you know, it's not all encompassing. It can be, but also there's so many interesting things about you, um, you know, for you to put out there and and to speak to people about. And, yeah, I think once I realized that I've had more authentic relationships, I've had great friendships as well, like you said, in in the community. 

17:48
Before I was so close off to the community and I'm embarrassed to say that now, um, but I think everybody goes through these phases of of learning who they are and then I don't know. I've heard a lot of people say that when they were younger, they completely backed off from the community. I think one thing about that is when you are younger and the options available to you they're so medical, they're so, like you said about the advert, it's assume what people can do and then they will do it, but assuming that they can't do things, that's that. That's the box that they almost end up in. 

18:28
And whenever my mom like obviously like my mum as well having two disabled kids that are so close in age, she had no, no lived experience of disability, no experience of disability at all um, it really, you know, it was hard for her as well. It made her think well, do they need to go to this club? Do they need to go to this school? It's all those questions. And she didn't have the internet, she didn't have a community, um. 

18:53
So we ended up going to all kinds of places, but you know, we get there and it would be shock, it would be massive shock, because we weren't a part of the community, um, and we'd go into those places and and a lot of people would have friendship groups or they would have like a perception of what that was. But we would go in and we'd be like we don't belong here, so it's almost like we didn't belong anywhere, um, so I just instantly hated that environment and I did everything that I could to be away from it. Um, and it wasn't until I was much older, working in the space and having friends with disabilities as well, that I realized that, wow, what have I missed out on for all these years? 

19:42 - Chandy (Host)
one thing I thought I find really interesting when you were answering that question is that, although you were talking about, like, relationships with friends and also romantic relationships, you've almost talked about the relationship with yourself as well and that self-love journey, and I think that is so important when we talk about disability, and I think the way you talked about it just then, like saying how, when you were at school, you would change yourself to, to be that identity that had been crafted for you yeah, that medical model approach where, like you, have to change to, to be liked and to almost fit into the education system as well. 

20:17
So the fact that you've identified that and you've you've, grown with it, it sounds like you've been on an amazing journey and yeah, definitely. 

20:27 - Kelly (Host)
And I think the thing is I never stopped adapting, like even to my late 20s, mid-20s, I was still on the same path and although I felt a lot more secure in myself, I was like, okay, well, I work in football, so I can be disabled, I can be a woman, but I can't be alternative, because that's too many things. I have to be this straight laced version of me to still okay, I'm comfortable with those two parts, but then I still need that extra bit to get me in there. And it's like why, kelly? Why? Because you probably could have done so much more exciting work and you could have enjoyed your life so much more if you were just a hundred percent yourself. And it sounds like such an obvious lesson, but for me it's. It took me what? 

21:16 - Chandy (Host)
25 years to figure that out if you could go back and you could speak to your younger self, maybe when you were at school doing those things that you described like removing the plates from your wheelchair, what would you say to yourself? 

21:32 - Kelly (Host)
oh, I've got the perfect answer for this one, shandi, literally, because the other day I was at a business convention, right, and I got a new tattoo and my new tattoo says fuck them all. And that's exactly how I feel about all those people that make people feel like they can't like be themselves and they can't shine like, no matter whether that is just somebody bullying someone, because you know they come across different to how you are, or whether it's putting down someone's business idea or whether, whatever it is, do you know what those people are? The people that are holding society back and they're holding. They're holding us all back in terms of our own growth, our own like perception of the world, our own enjoyment, our own happiness, our representation. 

22:23
And, yeah, I wish I could go back and say to Kelly like, forget these people, just keep doing you and I would have been here a lot quicker. I would if I'd have had no self-doubt, no inner saboteur. I like, can you imagine the journey, like it's taken me long enough to get here? So imagine it without any doubt or without any internal worry or external. You can't do that, you can't do this, um, and with good guidance, we'd be flying forward. So, yeah, I just think everybody that is my. 

23:00
I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to swear on this podcast, by the way no, no, no, go ahead. 

23:04 - Chandy (Host)
I think, like I think what you're saying is so important. 

23:08
Like a few weeks ago I'd someone reached out to me on LinkedIn saying about opportunities to like get involved with companies through their business, and they were like I'll set you up a meeting with one of our teams so you can go through stuff. And I had the session booked weeks in advance and it came around to it and the day before they were like I've just had a look at your LinkedIn profile. I don't think you're right fit for what we're looking for. And I was like, firstly, you've wasted my time. 

23:36
Secondly, like I get that they normally work with like people who are because I think it was around like getting into board roles where, like you, can help steer and direct companies. And I don't have business acumen as such, but I've got lived experience and I've got an awareness of how to make a business accessible and that's come through like what I've learned and through like my own lived experience, and it's a bit disheartening to see that the companies don't think that's important in terms of moving companies forward to a place where, like I know, we have this debate in society about being woke and and stuff. That frustrates me a little bit, but like it is, in essence it's about being accommodating. 

24:18 - Kelly (Host)
It's about understanding people's difference and embracing that that's just society trying to hang on to the norm, though that whole woke conversation, like it's just society trying to hang on to what we've always done, and you know, just people have got perspectives. Let them have them perspectives, regardless. What it's doing more damage, holding us back in the same place that we are. Honestly, we could talk about this all day. I feel like I'm shocked as well that you had that interaction. Well, actually, I'm not shocked, because people are still like that, um, but what do you know what? What I would say in that situation is like imagine how bad they're going to feel when you succeed and they're still in the same place because it's going to happen like you've got that drive and you've got that belief in yourself. And then those people that say you're not right, you don't fit the box, they're the people that are going to be in those roles until they die. We are always evolving, always growing, and, yeah, I just apply the same, the same logic fuck them when. 

25:24 - Chandy (Host)
When I started getting into like like board roles, like just helping like charities grow and stuff. Like I remember reading something it helping like charities grow and stuff. Like I remember reading something. 

25:33
It was like most like trustees at this point were called like Dave or something and they were all of a certain age and I was there like I got into being a trustee when I was 18, 19 I don't have a, the most common name and all this stuff and I'm disabled as well. So, like all of these different intersection things that like people don't think about, no-transcript disability doesn't stop when you leave the hospital, like it's not something that you like just have in that confined area, like it is part of your life in all elements, like yeah you still have bills to pay, you still have responsibilities, you still have education to go to and, and stuff like that, and I think it's so important for you. 

26:34
What's the biggest challenge that we have as a community that we can all do? Like that society can do more to help be allies and change the conversation. 

26:41 - Kelly (Host)
I think it's just listen, literally listen, and don't think that you already know the answer, because there's so many people that think I've done the research, I've done the hard work, but it's not about the research. Yes, there's an element of things that you can do there, but it's about understanding people as individuals and taking on board what they actually need and what they want to see from the world, and collaborating. It's not about I read this textbook 10 years ago about disability and now that's my view and I am right and I will tell disabled people that they are wrong because I read this book and I am right. It's not about that. It's about everything's evolving. 

27:23
People are evolving, people are changing, so collaborate with that person, listen, understand their experience, understand their story and literally go forward from there. It's not complicated, but we just act like it is and I mean I just put my whole company out of business by saying it's not complicated. It can be complicated and you should talk to with not for but if you're talking about interaction and face to face and you know working and collaborating with people, literally all you need to do is listen and be respectful and, like you might not agree, you might have different opinions, but you've got to always understand other people's side. There's no right and wrong when it comes to life, and I think that when you understand that and take a look at yourself first, then you'll have really positive interactions and positive change, hopefully. 

28:19 - Chandy (Host)
I don't know if you saw it, but a few years ago there was the end, the awkward campaign that was done by scope, the charity I was actually I was in that campaign. 

28:26 - Kelly (Host)
um, yeah, yeah, I was in that campaign. Oh, amazing, yeah, yeah, I was actually in that campaign. I mean I was. I did this one where it was like you know, in a nightclub where you do the high, like everyone wants a high five, that was my scenario. But it was how many years? Probably over 10 years ago. I had like short pink hair, pink curly hair. 

28:47 - Chandy (Host)
Yeah, I loved that campaign. They did so many videos. Pink curly hair yeah, I love that campaign. They did so many videos and I remember watching one of them and it was like people talking about conversations they'd had and people coming up to them and making these assumptions and stuff. 

28:59
And they also had a video where it's like a scenario of a workplace and yeah, they were like don't try and make it awkward by like adapting your conversation to almost, like in quotes, like make it more simple, like dumb it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe people still deserve the same respect and same understanding as other people like yeah, yeah, it's so interesting definitely for you. What advice would you give to a disabled person who might be listening? 

29:33 - Kelly (Host)
oh, that is so hard. Um, what advice would I give to a disabled person that might be listening? I think, just based on our whole conversation, like, just, it's so hard for anyone to figure out who they are, like, literally, there's people that are still going through it every single day, trying to figure out where their place is in the world. Um, but I think, like, what I would say is, disabled people are the most entrepreneurial problem solving people. If there is no place for you in the world, then that means you need to make a place and that means you need to, you know, make your voice heard, find your people, find you know there might not even be any people, but when you start speaking up and being yourself truly authentically, those people will come and you know you might make a space for somebody else who is less far on their journey or is more quiet or is more afraid to come forward. They'll then join you and they'll feel empowered to come forward as well, and it'll have a knock on effect on effect to the whole community and and, ultimately, the whole world. Like, once everybody's voice is heard and people start getting what they need, and people start feeling like they can belong and make a difference and make a change. That's when we're really going to move forward. 

30:55
So any disabled people out there like, my inbox is always open if people want to talk to me, like I love, um, when people dm me on instagram and ask me about, like, their kids future and what they can do to support their kids, or I get young teenage kids reaching out to me about relationships and sex or fears or phobias or anxieties or whatever it might be. That's my favorite thing to do, because I was in that boat when I was 15, 16, 14, and I didn't know where to go. I didn't want to say anything to my parents because, one, we don't have that open type relationship where you can talk about all that stuff anyway, but two, I felt like anything I sort of spoke about about my disability, in a negative way it's, it upset them and it probably didn't. They were. That was my perception. You know I am disabled, I am their child, so I didn't want to give them an extra hate this word but burden or guilt or sadness, because ultimately I was going to be fine. 

32:01
I just wanted some answers, um, but there is nowhere to turn and then, if there is, you know, I think some charities do absolutely fantastic work, but some of them are very much still in that medical, archaic lens and sometimes they don't have the right answers. But you know, as people sometimes we don't have the right answers. But I think it's about I look like I'm a big fan of mentoring and working with people and understanding, but I just didn't have access to that at that age, so had to, like, find out a lot of this stuff myself, and that can be quite traumatic at that sort of age. Um. So, yeah, I think I'd love to reach out, I'd love to connect with more people, um, but you know, if I'm not the right fit, then find somebody that you really admire and and go and chat to them. And I think, as disabled people, we tend to be super open, especially with other disabled people. We like to share our life hacks, tips and tricks, um. So, yeah, I'd be more than open to have any convo. 

32:58
But, um, yeah, I think just try and make that space for yourself, allow yourself to learn, allow yourself to you know, try new things and go out and spread your message. And it doesn't have to be right, like there's no right and wrong. It can literally be this is me and then you grow from that feedback and you grow from that journey. I keep saying journey today I really hate the word journey, but you know it's about giving yourself the opportunities to grow, be yourself and find and find yourself. And it might take 20 odd years, like it did for me, or it might be quite instant, but you've got to start somewhere. So I think that's my advice. Hopefully that makes sense. 

33:39 - Chandy (Host)
What you said there about like the community helping each other, I think is like I've seen that firsthand. Like yes, there are people who are non-disabled who still will support and stuff, but often it is when you are a disabled person. You post content or you post something like when I started reaching out to people about the podcast. Like the amount of responses that were like this is so needed, like and all this stuff, and like disabled people want to have a voice and want to be heard, and I think there's so many different lived experiences around disability that you're always going to be heard. And I think there's so many different lived experiences around disability that you're always going to be learning something new. Like the same disability can affect people so differently and I think as far as we can go in helping promote that and working together to promote that lived experience is so valuable. 

34:25 - Kelly (Host)
Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you. 

34:28 - Chandy (Host)
But yeah, thank you so much, Kelly, for chatting to me today. 

34:31 - Kelly (Host)
No, thank you for having me.