Where have all the Lee Trundles gone?

Welcome to The Hand of Pod! This is the football nostalgia podcast and we’ll be giving you a dose of football memories warmer than a bear hug from big Neville Shouthall. From Alfredo Di Stefano to Anthony Le Tallac, from Zico to Zola. Strap in and enjoy the nostalgic walk down football lane.

In our first episode I am joined by Matt, Rich and Torban. Three wonderful human beings with a great knowledge and love for the game. We delve into some current issues as well as past memories today as we work on the format points for the rest of the series. I hope you enjoy spending time with the guys as much as I did.

Please help us out by subscribing and sharing the podcast!

The Hand of God is a Stirling Sports production. For more nostalgic football content follow us on:

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Music written by Matt & Gilbert Spencer-Smith

Transcript

Where have all the Lee Trundles Gone?
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Hand of Pod. This is the Football Nostalgia Podcast, and we'll be giving you a dose of football memories warmer than a bear hug from Neville Southall. From Alfredo DiStefano to Anthony Letallick, from Zico to Zola, strap in and enjoy the nostalgic walk down football lane. In our first episode, I'm joined by Matt, Rich and Torben.

Three wonderful human beings with a great knowledge and love for the game. We delve into some current issues today, as well as past memories, as we work on some format points for the rest of the series. I hope you enjoy spending time with the guys as much as I did. If you enjoy the podcast, please do me a favor, share this with one person you think might like it too.

It will help us continue to make more and better episodes for your enjoyment.

[00:01:00] 



Dan: . We were just talking about Fantasy League. Yeah, 

Torban: well though, Dan.

Dan: well I haven't, I think I've lost to your brother this 

week. 

Torban: He's just sneaky. He just, half the time I kind of see him and say, oh you're doing, oh we're

playing each other. He's like, oh aren't we? I haven't changed my 

team in six months. And then he goes and beats me. 

And it's, or he just puts in weird players. That's right, because I was 

with him on Saturday and uh, 

Louis scored twice, didn't he? 

Dan: Yeah. 

Torban: And he's like, oh I'm 

having a good fantasy league day. I was like, oh yeah, I didn't know he was 

playing you. That's a shame. I would have 

texted you straight away. 

Dan: Yes. Well, yeah, I think 

Matt, has, uh, he's overtaken me 

Torban: not doing it. 

Dan: Yeah. 

Torban: Is he? Oh yeah, I 

thought he was down with me for some reason. [00:02:00] Nah, okay. Yeah, well done. Smith boys are up in the

top division again.

Very 

Matt: this time last season, I think we were in the exact same position, second 

and third, chasing, 

Dan: that didn't 

Matt: at 

Dan: turn out well, did it?

Matt: exact same

Dan: Really? God.

Matt: think so.

Torban: Wow, well, there's a stat request there, isn't there? 

You've, you've asked of your own, uh, stat 

there.

Dan: Everyone,

for Richard doesn't know, everyone, Matt runs the league. And everyone requests stats from Matt, so Matt has 

to constantly churn out

these, uh, Fantasy

League stats to our WhatsApp group. Which he loves, obviously. 

Rich: It's all, the fantasy league. is all news to me boys, as is Torben's brother. I didn't know 

Torben's had a brother.

Torban: Oh, there you 

Rich: Learning, learning all sorts on this podcast 

already. 

Dan: Yeah, 

there we go. 

Torban: and a sister as well. There 

you 

Rich: Ha, system mate, Incredible.

Dan: What I've been thinking about recently and probably 

been thinking about, 

uh, for the last couple of years, um, [00:03:00] is, uh, how much I hate VAR.

And it was watching a bit of the league cup final 

earlier and there was a disallowed

goal 

and it, it, kind of ties in with loads of rule

changes that

they've been. Constantly 

introducing every season and it feels like somebody just 

needs to justify their job or a team of people

need to justify their job at the FIFA or UEFA or the FA or wherever by making rule 

changes that are unnecessary

because we're talking about introducing the blue card.

Um, but 

VAR. 

It's it seems to be a lot of what it's doing. I 

don't see

as there being a point 

to it. And how it's improving football as a 

game, because we're now just discussing 

VAR mistakes rather than

referee mistakes. There's even a programme on Sky Sports dedicated to 

analysing the VAR decisions. And, like, Van Dijk scored in [00:04:00] normal time, and there was a huge celebration, 

and it's exciting in a cup final, and then it just stops. And the ref has to go over to the screen and it's just, it's just kind of, I'd prefer there to be mistakes and mistakes are exciting. You think about how many things in football history, like how many moments probably wouldn't have happened. Um, and probably 

the most obvious is the, the hand of God and Diego Maradona and 

Torban: Well, that's, yeah. 

Dan: however much it affected us. Like, can you imagine if that

Rich: I, I, I was 

Dan: wasn't a thing? 

Oh, of course you would. yeah. 

But I can't imagine a world in which that didn't happen. Because if that didn't 

happen, would then

one of the greatest goals 

of all time happened as well? Like, we might not 

ever 

Matt: Well, yeah, because there wasn't a handball with that 

goal.

Dan: Yeah, but you know what I mean. 

Rich: No, I think your first point, pal, is spot on. I think when they've invested so much money in 

it, can they then go 

and do a U turn and 

go, [00:05:00] Well, it's not working, it's terrible, we'll get rid of it? 

Dan: no, I don't 

think they will. And like, goal line 

technology, brilliant. It works really well.

The ball crosses the

line. It gets a pin.

It's instant. But if something's making the game worse, just for the sake of it? being correct, like in 

sport, there's sport, there's always a bit of

luck in sport, no, no 

sport is

like perfect, and it's kind of part of sport, so, so yeah, 

Matt: What do you think of um, 

so in other sports there's, there's, there's a challenge. So in American 

football, the coach is allowed to throw a challenge flag. And if they get it wrong, they lose a timeout. But if there were, if you remember before 

tennis went fully 

digital, as it 

Dan: mm, 

Matt: you used 

to be able to challenge a call, didn't you?

And then they would do the slow clap on the whatever, whatever it used to be called. Hawkeye, that's it. Um, so what if the 

manager 

had three challenges? And so 

the only reviewed decisions that the, the [00:06:00] manager asks 

for 

them to be reviewed, 

Dan: yeah, um, maybe, I mean, 

I 

Matt: you would also, you would automatically 

check every goal.

Dan: yeah, I I think it's been, it's been

using 

too many

parts of the game, yeah, Like, offside is one thing. Like, if something's offside, they can, they can analyse it and say, yeah, onside. But in terms of, like, a challenge, even when VAR's made a decision, and they're looking at it in slow motion, you see them analysing in the studio, and they still don't agree

when they're watching it in slow motion.

Because football isn't that clear cut a game. It's, it is kind of a matter of opinion. We're just getting another 

person's opinion, basically. 

Matt: think no one ever accounted, when

we all thought about we need to get rid of

the mistakes, no one really thought about the fact that, that it wasn't black

and white. And, you know, not all decisions are black and white because it's all about intent and, you know, and you can't always see that, on a slow mo.

Dan: And when you slow it [00:07:00] down so much, it looks worse anyway

than it

Rich: lot of it is knowing the rule you've got to implement as well. 

If, you know, the rule is 

not clear on a handball or an 

offside, then, you know, 

the mistake will come when you're trying to implement that. And stuff 

like 

cricket, like Matt was saying with American football, with 

cricket, a lot of it is instant.

So like what you said earlier, Dan, football's live sport. I don't want to, I don't want to wait 

seven 

minutes

for a

decision on,

you, know, I'd rather it was a 

mistake and it? was, it, was done live.

Dan: yeah, yeah.

Matt: yeah, but cricket again is sort of. More, more quantifiable, isn't it? Is it, you know, you you, uh, you, can track the ball. Is it going to hit the stumps? Does it hit, you know, it's, it's, it's more black and 

Dan: And they stop, they stop between every ball 

anyway, so there's a natural break in the game.

Rich: I think in this day of technology, in this day and age, surely 

there's something, there's 

got to be some 

technology you can have on a pitch, live, to say, right, Torbjorn's offside by a 

millimetre.

Dan: Yeah. 

Matt: [00:08:00] the referee

needs to run 

around with a VA VR 

headset so he can watch the game, but also gets replayed

Rich: Yeah, there's got 

Matt: and he can see all the lines on 

the 

Rich: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I 

mean. Yeah, exactly. Like a grid on the pitch And go, right,

yeah, he's on, he's off. 

Dan: Well I always, growing up I always found the debates about 

bad refereeing decisions enjoyable after a game.

Sitting in a pub and going, everyone

just moaning, he got that wrong, we've been robbed and 

things

like 

that. That's part of it 

Matt: So why, so why do you

hate debates about VAR 

decisions then? 

Dan: Uh, well I just think we're now debating about 

something 

that's also making the game worse. So what's the point 

of it? 

There's games where you're just sitting there. 

For 20 minutes of a game, just 

waiting for decisions, and then stupid amounts of injury time. And the whole rule change on injury 

time was because they were trying to stop time wasting, but they haven't implemented that correctly, because they're [00:09:00] adding for every tiny little thing.

When people aren't time wasting, that's just what happens during a game. The ball's not always in play. So, they've kind of got that wrong as well. It feels like they're just trying to fix things that aren't really broken.

Rich: Yeah.

Completely. 

Dan: complaining about that much in football. Everyone enjoys it, doesn't it?

Rich: Yeah. And no one's saying how good VAR is, I wouldn't imagine.

Dan: No. 

Torban: those big decisions go against you though, isn't it? When you, when you, you know, the hand of God, or, you know, penalties or bulls over the line or whatever that, you know, where we've been fans of clubs. where you've, you've felt hard done by because there's been a decision against you where you've, you know, you've lost, you've been relegated, you've lost a cup, 

you've lost a match, you know, big games, big decisions that have kind of gone against you, 

where if it had VAR been there, then

they wouldn't have, you know, been mistakes.

I guess it's, it's more to do with the ones where a bit more, um, nuance, there's a bit of an opinion, you know, like with a 

tackle, because from one angle it'll look like [00:10:00] nothing, from another angle it'll look, 

look terrible, and that's, but you know, goal, I don't, 

Dan: Yeah, that's, that's, that's the, 

that's the main thing. I think they, they should just scrap it for that. 

Torban: What about offside, what about like, you know, where, where there's a fingernail offside, is 

that, 

Dan: I think that's more the rule than the 

VAR. The rule needs to be clearer, or the rule needs to change.

Rich: So,

Matt: if when they're analysing a tackle they're only allowed to analyse it?

at, at 

full speed?

Dan: Yeah. 

Matt: you can look at the different angles but you're not allowed to be, but you have to analyse it 

at the speed. You can replay it and replay it but it's got to always be at normal speed.

Dan: Well I saw it.

Rich: given Van Dyke's goal onside then, today?

Dan: Um, No, the decision was probably correct. It was just the fact that, um, I just felt it kind of spoiled the drama. It just made me 

think more about the AR. [00:11:00] it wasn't specifically to that

one decision. It was just the fact that you can't really Celebrate a goal like you used to because you're 

just 

waiting because, because, there was quite, 

there's quite a long time from The celebration to when they pulled it back.

So 

Torban: As a fan, when a goal goes in, you'll get that reflex of a reaction of 

a celebration. And then a couple of 

seconds later, you're like, oh, is it going to be offside? 

Or is it, you know, is there going to be a VAR decision? But then you, you get the weight, but then you also get this secondary kind of 

celebration or commiseration. 

One side of the stadium is going to cheer. 

And so, does it add another level of, is it, you know, could you say it actually does add another level of 

drama, of interest, of 

Rich: Oh, for me, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. Checked. 

Torban: could argue 

that.

Dan: I just think, well, if it, if it kind 

of, keeps going on like this and this is how it is,

then eventually we're going to stop celebrating goals in the first place [00:12:00] until the BAI is checked because you kind of 

know it's coming. So there's going to be a big delay in the goal from the celebration and It kind of ruins the goals a bit 

Torban: Actually, I'll tell you what, it probably, it ruins 

it more in the stadium as well, because they don't show the 

replays, you don't hear 

the commentary of the VAR, 

Dan: No everyone's just sat there. 

Torban: on TV. So they're 

sort of sat 

there, just sort of looking at each other, 

waiting

to, to hear the news. So actually,

it, it, it sort of, uh, lessens the experience in the stadium, perhaps, more so than

on TV.

Dan: so one thing I asked you all to was to bring a subject to the table. Um, and Matt told me that I asked him what it was and he wouldn't tell 

me. So he said he wanted a live, a live, reaction. So, um, uh, 

we'll, we'll, 

Matt: that not what everyone's 

Dan: we'll talk. 

No, Tom text me and told me I haven't, I don't know what Richard's got, 

Rich: thought it was just a warm up, I haven't bought anything.

Dan: been so,

[00:13:00] uh, No, 

Rich: I have, 

Dan: Good, good, good. Um, so, but yeah, I thought I'd start 

with Matt as soon as, um, I've got high expectations now.

Matt: Well, mine is, could be slightly linked to what we've just talked about. But I've, so I was 

thinking I, I've got in the last sort 

of five, six years. I've really 

got into the

NFL 

and, uh, I watch American football as 

much as I watch. So actually

sometimes more than I 

watch. 

Uh. You know, football, football. Um, and I've never 

picked a 

team, so I

don't.

Yeah, I've never, 

I don't support a team. There's lots of 

teams that I like but often it's because they're linked to like a documentary. 

So I 

uh, this season they 

had a, um, a documentary following the Miami Dolphins and I really liked the 

head coach, Mike Daniels, and they had a kind of a good buzz 

about him.

And I 

was, I

really wanted them to do well, but they weren't the only 

team 

I wanted to do well. And you kind of, but it changes each [00:14:00] season, which 

teams I want to, I want to, do well, which led me to. 

To ask

the question, is sport more or less enjoyable if you're invested in one particular team? So do you think you would enjoy the Premier League more, Torben, if you didn't support,

like if you didn't have such a strong support for one team?

Because in a way, like when I watch American Football, I just enjoy 

watching the sport. 

Torban: that's a good, that 

is a good question. Well, personally, when I support Everton, I'd say yes, I'd much rather support no team at the moment. 

But, uh, yeah, that's, yeah,

Dan: Well, Rich, um, doesn't, I mean, you kind of, you do support Everton, don't

you? You 

Rich: Yeah, so, Yeah,

Everton was my, was my 

top flight team until Swansea did the unthinkable and, 

uh, and got there. Um, so, I uh, yeah, I mean, supporting two teams that are 

[00:15:00] in a potential relegation battle is not much 

fun, so. Yeah, I kind of get what you're saying. I was a huge NFL fan 

when I was a kid. I was a huge basketball fan as well.

Um, 

probably, I think my team back in the 

day was like, I used to like both the 

LA team, so the Rams and the Raiders. 

Um, and then obviously with the franchise element there. 

Where are the Raiders now? Are they in Vegas? 

Matt: Brazos Vegas, the Rams left LA and then 

Rich: Came back. Yeah. Yeah. So, I've been 

to see a couple of games. Um, what did I see this year?

I saw the Buffalo Bills and the Jacksonville Jaguars at White Hart Lane. Oh, the new Spurs stadium. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so 

brilliant. Love, love that. And then

Matt: I took my son.

Rich: Yeah, 

you know, great, great sort of family day out the NFL and a proper, proper 

event because it's 

on for so long. Um, 

so 

when we were there, 

a load of lads there having [00:16:00] beers, guys there with their wives, kids, families, a lot of Americans had flown over to watch it.

People who hadn't been to see it before got to kind of check it out, 

which, which was amazing. And we did the year before, but a mate of mine, he's got, 

um, 

I think it's called an NFL, um, Euro season 

ticket. So you basically get, you know, first dibs on the three games they play 

there. So we went to, um, Wembley last year and 

watched, who was that?

Was that the Broncos? Yeah, Broncos and the Jags. And that was unbelievable. I think that was the biggest crowd 

they've had in Europe. The NFL, Wembley, 

um, proper. Proper 

amazing show. So yeah, I kind of get what you're saying there. I can, I can sit down and watch most sports, even if I'm going to team and enjoy 

it.

There's, there's very few sports I can't, I can't not enjoy for whatever element of it. 

You can, you can normally find something as a bit of a bit of a hook or, or something you've got, you can invest, you can get to be invested 

in.

Torban: Good example of that is probably something like the Olympics, isn't it? Where I'll happily sit. And [00:17:00] watch, you know, I don't know, shooting or kayaking or whatever it is and get really into it for that moment and, and not have, well, I guess, you know, you'll be supporting the British, uh, 

you know, the British Olympians, but yeah, I don't know.

I think in answer to your question, Matt, I'd say, I'd say it'd be a no, because I think you get, you get that, the passion kind of stays with you, even, you know, during the week, you'll be kind of thinking about the game that your team are playing at the weekend. Whether you win or lose, that kind of visceral, kind of real, you feel it, you know, as opposed to if you're just watching it from a, um, without that kind of added, I don't know, level of passion and history and, and, 

um, I don't know, knowing that your mates, you know, are a fan of one team and you're a fan of, you know, just that, that kind of, the added level? 

of, I don't know, the, banter or whatever,

Rich: The 

Torban: I think you just wouldn't sort of, yeah, exactly, that's the, that's the word, you just wouldn't, you wouldn't have all

of

that, 

Rich: Yeah.

Dan: person it made me think [00:18:00] of,

is our mutual friend

Jez, who's a Wickham Wanderers 

fan, and doesn't have a top flight team, he just supports Wickham Wanderers, and he's always He's like well into top flight football, like he'll always be on, on the WhatsApps, getting really excited about games like Champions League games and things like that,

Like, Oh, you're watching this. So he obviously still has a huge enjoyment from it, even though he doesn't support a top flight club. So I think, I think people do, but I think it's just different, isn't it? How you, how you feel when you're watching your own team, watching your own, watching those types of games.

Yeah.

Torban: Yeah, I don't think it means, I think you can, you can still watch, you know, if, I don't know, let's say it's Chelsea versus Brighton or something, you know, so it's, it's, it's, right now it's of neither importance, you know, either, either end of the table so much, but I could still sit down and even though I'm a 

fan of Everton, I could still watch that match and still get enjoyment from 

it 

But would [00:19:00] I get sort of more enjoyment if I

wasn't a fan of a team already And I could sort of really appreciate it at a different

level? I don't know, maybe.

Dan: I always used to support, um, New York Jets. I think, um, Dad bought me a New York Jets jumper once. And they've never, never done well in anything.

Rich: I went to the States, I think it was in 2012, so I watched them at Meadowlands against the Dolphins.

Dan: No, really.

Rich: that's, yeah, then that's, I think it was like minus five. Um, incorrect. Cause all the fans are merged together. There's no home and away end, um, in it. So it's, um, yeah, yeah, it's quite a, quite a unique experience.

I think seeing that, um, and it's, I think with the NFL, particularly why it's like a massive production and it's just like, you know, Dan Smith, you know, university of Wickham, 200 pounds running back and like they clap everyone on, it's, it's 

unbelievable. Unbelievable in terms of like the, uh, the product and, uh, and what goes into the day. 

Dan: Yeah, 

Matt: seen, um, uh, [00:20:00] Key and Peele? They do a comedy sketch where they're doing all like college football 

introductions and they've, they've made up. Silly 

names and they get sillier and 

sillier and I sent it to Dan 

the other day because it's, it's final

Dan: I, I, I forwarded it on to 

Matt: his name might actually be the most boring 

Smith name because it, because it, because the last 

player after all these weird And wonderful names that they've made up is Dan.

Dan Smith, Idaho.

Dan: name, my name was the 

punchline, basically

So Tobin, you, you sent me your, uh, your discussion point, uh, today, but I'll let you, I'll let you take it away.

Torban: Yeah, I did, I didn't know whether I was going to be too off piece and it probably is. It's probably, again, a little bit self, self 

Matt: question. 

Torban: Ah, very good. Uh, so I'm named after a guy called Torben Ulrich. who, um, who died only a few weeks ago, aged [00:21:00] 95. Um, and he was a tennis player in the 50s, 60s, 70s. And I asked my dad, uh, once why he, he named me after him.

And he said that he epitomized a rebellious nature, which, um, which I quite, liked. And he was cool with it, apparently. Um, obviously shoes are far too big for, for me to fill. I'm quite, uh,

made legendary faces like that. 

But yeah, I've kind of, I've gone online and had a look at, you know, who he was. 

and he wasn't

particularly, uh, he wasn't a great tennis player.

He only reached 

the fourth round as a singles in the French and US and Wimbledon. He did reach semifinal in Wimbledon, um, as a doubles player, but he played 

with, he had long hair, he looked like a hippie 

and he, and he

just didn't look really like a sportsman. Um, he sometimes had it in

a ponytail and 

he,

and he's, he's most famous, probably more

so for being

the, the father of the 

Metallica drummer. 

Lars Ulrich. 

Matt: No way. 

Torban: Yeah, so, and he,

but in his, he 

[00:22:00] had, he was

just a character. And so,

you know, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't winning title after title, but, um, you know, he obviously caught my dad's eye a million years ago.

Um, and he went on to become a writer, a jazz musician, um, 

a filmmaker, an 

artist, and he was quite an interesting guy. Um, and it just made me

think that, you know, characters in sport was

kind of the main sort of punchline that I was kind 

of thinking about with, you know, a 

topic to discuss is that, I don't know whether 

people of a certain era will look back at another era 

and think, oh, it was much better then, or, yeah, I Just 

feel like, I don't know, it's, 

it's, watching him.

Yeah. The Premier League nowadays just feels so sort of sanitized, polished, so professional, I, suppose, that you don't get the likes of kind of Vinnie Jones and, and

perhaps like a, I don't know, Cantona or Robbie Savage or

Paul Merson 

or sort of those players from 

the 90s that

that we remember watching who were just a bit different and a bit. Interesting. And so, you know, we would [00:23:00] just, uh, do some, well, all of those guys did some pretty 

crazy things. They just played, you know, football in a

different era. But do you, I just feel like nowadays, 

are we, are we, do we have less characters 

in sport? Just because, because it's become so much more professional and more 

sanitized and 

more, I don't know, more pressure.

So people are more 

focused.

That was my, uh, That was my discussion 

Dan: Definitely, in 

football.

Definitely in

football. 

Rich: yeah

Dan: Yeah, and I would say it's because it's become so professional now. Because when you see more amateur games, um, you still get so many more characters. When you're watching the Olympics, they do the interviews afterwards and they seem so strange the interviews because you're 

not used to them speaking in that way because they're not media trained.

Torban: Yeah. 

Dan: But yeah, I'd say probably the closest thing in football now is probably Jack Grealish I'd say, 

to a character like we used 

to have and um, [00:24:00] 

Torban: Yeah. Do you reckon, do you reckon we'd ever get another? Would there ever be another 

Gazza, for example? Do you reckon there'd ever be 

that sort of, that, that kind of 

crazy kind of player who 

Dan: I think Gazza was a one off in any era, to be honest. 

Yeah. 

Matt: I don't think. someone who, uh, treated, or didn't, didn't treat their body in the optimal sporting way, I don't think they would succeed as much natural skill as they could have. They wouldn't be able to keep up now, like Gazza would 

you know, would struggle to, to keep up, wouldn't he, with the fitness side of stuff.

Torban: Yeah,

Dan: Yeah, 

Matt: I think that they, um, they're trying to create characters by having so many 

Documentaries. I've just finished watching the, the, the first half of the second 

series of break Point, speaking of tennis, and I think they did those kind of things. And the, the golf 

one, was it full 

swing and the, [00:25:00] the

and drive to survive.

They kind of do a good job of, 

of, of, kind of showing you the other side because. On the, the kind of the face side of sports, you don't see the characters, but there's still, there's still characters

there, but you have to watch the documentaries now to 

actually 

see the characters behind, behind, the sport. And then you do like, um, see, you know, find some funny 

characters in different places. 

Rich: Yeah, it's such a business now, isn't it? The business element of it where you just lose sponsors left, right and centre if you're anything other than, you know, talking the talk and walking the, you know, walking the line that you have to be seen to be doing these days. Because all of your, all of your teams that you boys support would probably have four or five Mavericks from the 90s in it.

Have a hard man, have a hard drinker and have, You know, the skillful winger, it'll have the, the center forward. Who's knocking in 25 goals that that just doesn't happen anywhere. I mean, I, I, from a Swansea point of view, I think the last. Maverick, we would probably [00:26:00] have would have been Lee Trundle who just played came into the game late None of it was over coached out with him in an academy anywhere turns pro at 22 So every time he's going out, he's just gonna enjoy him enjoy himself and entertain the fans, 

which who does that 

these days? 

Dan: I wanted 

to ask the 

question, has skill died in football? Um, and it was actually, I started thinking about this after, 

surprisingly, something Michael Owen said. It's probably the only time I've agreed with anything Michael Owen says. And he was saying, 

it's, uh, you don't need to be as good at football now to be 

footballer as you did in, in, his 

day, um, you just need the 

the physical attributes

to, to be a premiership football player. 

And, um, And, I kind 

of thought he's got a point because you look at, I think, I think outside of the 

kind of top teams, some of the top five, top 

six teams, [00:27:00] the players and the attributes are very samey. 

And you don't really. have any exciting players outside of the top six and we used to have all these players in the lesser teams like Dicanio, uh, Esprit, uh, J. J. Acotia, uh, Paolo Wanshop, who could just like do the most amazing skill, Lee Trundle, like you said, 

they could do these, these skilled tricks, they could run through players and.

The, the way football clubs kind of built now Is all about passing and the teams like Bournemouth and that they can, they can stay in the Premier League and do well by just being well drilled and playing a certain way. And Chelsea

probably summed up for me a bit because they've spent all this money on all these, this young talent.

And they all seem to be this type of player who are incredibly fast, incredibly strong. But when you watch them, I don't feel they look like. [00:28:00] They, they kind of have a natural gift of playing football. Like, none of them are doing anything where I'm kind of going, Wow, what was that? And, and these are the, the most expensive players in the 

world that they, they put together.

And so the amount of times they're kind of through on goal and they don't 

have that natural killer instinct of, of scoring a goal. And I think that's what Michael Owen was touching on. a lot, that, that the reason he Was so, so good at football was 'cause he had that kind of natural ability to score goals. it. didn't ma didn't matter about his physical attributes. 

Rich: Yeah, I think like, I think the academy system, I 

I coached in it just before it kind of 

got, um, sort of the way it is now. And, uh, my next door neighbor, my parents in 

Swansea, he, he was a good footballer, young lad. 

Um, his dad had played in Man United Reserves. He played in the, um,

uh, the old like NSL in, in, in America with 

like. You know, some crazy players he played with and his boy was playing 

for Swansea. [00:29:00] And he was kind of kind of 14, 15.

He'd been there 

since he was about nine. And he sort of come out of school on a Friday. He'd have his DVD from the week before he'd be tasked with like, right. You got 

a 20, 20 passes in the final third in the first half, 

you know, some crazy stuff 

and it got to 16.

He 

just, didn't play for a year, got released. Um. I think that sometimes the enjoyment gets coached out of you because of 

a statistic or, like you say, you've got to be an athlete or, you know, he was always the best player I saw 

playing in that Swansea 

team. Um, and 

you're thinking he would probably make it.

But, yeah, I think, 

I think, do you enjoy it as much now? I 

don't 

know. So much, so much money in the game, you're told to play a certain way, 

everyone, no one plays long ball, no one's direct, no 

one

Dan: Yeah. I mean, is it a case 

of that these players do have that ability and, and skill and flare, but they, it, 

it's coached out of them. They're not 

Rich: Yeah, I think 

so. I think, how can you have a 16 year old lad and go, you know, you've got 

like, you've [00:30:00] got to cover a certain amount of ground in a 

game. You've got to do this, that, this, that, and that, you know, your thoughts are all on that, aren't they? So at the top level, it must be, 

uh, even, even crazier in terms of what you've got to execute in terms of like a game plan from a manager.

Um, 

Torban: Is it more to do with, do you reckon it'd be more to do with sort of fear 

of making a mistake? So, you know, players don't take, take, take, a player on. They'd rather make a 

pass because their optus 

Rich: yeah, 

completely, yeah, 

Torban: opposed to trying to go for a dribble and then losing it. Whereas, you know, one in three dribbles might end up in the goal. you won't see those dribbles anymore 

because they're, they're, they're turning around and 

sort of passing it inside or 

knocking it back. 

Rich: yeah, completely, 

Torban: Just, yeah, the fear fear of making 

Dan: Because I guess like a Paul Gascoigne, like someone managing someone like Paul Gascoigne would have just said, do what you want, I'd imagine. They wouldn't have been trying to fit him in, but a manager wouldn't say that to a player now, it'd probably be take a touch and pass it.

Rich: yeah, what's your, what's your attributes, what's your, 

game, what are you all about, 

you know, when you're at your 

[00:31:00] best, 

go and play.

Dan: Yeah, I feel like we're missing, as well as like 

Torben said, missing the personalities, we're missing these

kind of maverick players in the game that we used to have. 

Torban: Well, I guess the two are kind of the same almost, aren't they? That kind of creative flair, that kind of slight madness. You had a character, somebody who's a bit more sort of I don't know, confident in themselves or that, that single mindedness or whatever, that

that's just, Yeah, coached out of them or just, you know, too much pressure.

They just, um, choose a safe option rather than 

playing a certain way or the manager just doesn't want to, you know, doesn't want to, take the risk because they're 

under too much pressure. So they say, no,

just play a certain way. 

Matt: I kind of disagree.

Dan: Oh, really? Go on then.

Matt: Yeah, well, there's a lot of skill and these football players, like you can't say that what Kevin De Bruyne can do 

passing a ball is not highly

skilled at what he's doing, the fact [00:32:00] that he can Pass it on a dime to someone who's running 

at 15 miles an hour 

and to land it on the right foot 

at the right and why and whilst he's

like probably not even shaped up

to 

things.

And then I wonder if we've just come become accustomed to a 

higher level of 

general

football. that 

actually everyone

is skillful. They might

not the skill is

maybe not shown in the same way, but maybe you don't have quite the standout players. I mean,

even the defenders can do step

overs and

Cruyff turns And everything nowadays, which back in the old days, the defenders,

they would, they had one job. 

Whereas now they don't, 

they start

the attack, they have to be able to, even the goalkeepers have to be able to

pass now. So, like, the, goalkeepers are way more skilful than ever 

in history. Are you telling me Lionel Messi is not one of the most skilful players that's ever lived? And [00:33:00] he still plays

Dan: Yeah, yeah. No, it's 

Matt: I just think I just think 

the, I just think the

I think maybe it's

more that we're, yeah, I agree 

that the, that coaching has become

so refined that you're, you're so looking to find the

way to win.

And that way to win in team sport is

generally work, working better as a team and

how to work well as a team. and that does mean that flary stuff maybe, but you still see plenty of 

flair. In there, but I just think this, 

I don't think you 

can say that players 

are less skillful. I think players are all as 

skillful as probably the most skillful players 

from the 

past. They're just all at that level,

Dan: Yeah, I probably. I probably. 

meant

flair 

more than I did skill. That's probably the wrong word. Flair was more, more, more, what I 

meant. 

But, and, and is it a 

case if we don't see this flair? And then the main thing is in pitch, image in my mind is, is a player running through a whole team. 

[00:34:00] Um, that, that 

you used to see like in, in highlights, they would be.

So, so many highlights during a season 

of one of the goals of the season 

where he's run through a load of players. And I can't remember, like rarely seeing players 

doing that these days. And is it because they're told not to or is it because the defenders are 

so much better than they used to be that you can't do it 

Matt: probably a bit 

of it, but you 

know, 

Rich: both, I 

reckon,

Matt: yeah, because you're, you're coached to play the percentages, 

right? So

you've got a greater percentage 

of, of, of having a successful 

attack if you're passing 

to Uh, 

uh, a teammate who's freer than you trying to 

take

it on three people. I just say there's skill 

in that as, as well. 

Like it's just a 

different 

Rich: should, they, should they should, should like the championship div one div two defenders 

and 

keepers.

Still play like that. Still try and play out from the back. 

Clearly not as good.[00:35:00] 

Dan: Definitely, I've watched a bit of League One and they do try and do 

it 

and it's not 

I don't, don't think they should do it 

as often as they try and do it 

Um, it can, 

it, 

can be quite, quite, 

frustrating to watch when they're all 

trying to do what they do on the top flight. 

Rich: So the skill levels are still good 

Dan: it, get out there.

Just get out there. Hit the big 

lad. Well, I don't know if 

Rich: we talked about it down But I did tick off quite a 

good bucket 

list thing me and Dan Warner in January I went to the San Siro. 

So ever since I was a kid, so we're all of the same 

age 

so before Sky and 

Uh, what have 

you came on board and bought the rights to 

every 

football and Amazon and 

BT, it was, it was channel four, wasn't it on a, on a Sunday 

afternoon. [00:36:00] Um, so Gazetta, 

you know, what was the, what was the song? That was 

the, the, the intro was my ringtone for many years. Yeah, it was that, right. Yeah, exactly that. 

And, um, so yeah, I managed to get over there with Dan 

Warner and, um, good bucket list tick off 

and was very, 

very surprised by the sort of stadium. 

And how

good the football was, how good Milan was, but yeah, I, I just, uh, my, my topic would probably 

be nineties Italian football, 

all the, the few English players that went over there and I'll give you 

a little quiz question. I know we haven't got a quiz question, but I'll give a little 

quiz question. Can you name, 

uh, the team, the club 

that supplied the most 

players to the England Italian 90 squad?

Torban: Bari. 

Rich: Nope. 

Dan: He's gone big, gone big on David 

Platt. [00:37:00] But wasn't he, um, was he play

Rich: Correct. Maths, Matt Smith.

Dan: well done. 

Rich: Can you name the players for, for a bonus point?

Dan: Mark Hately? 

Torban: Mark

Rich: I said Mark Haley. I don't think it was Mark Haley.

Dan: Chris Woods? 

Rich: Chris Woods?

Yeah. You 

ought to get that one. You would have been jettisoned from the podcast 

Dan: Gaza wasn't at Rangers in 

90, was he? 

Rich: no. 

Dan: Who else was at Rangers in 90? Oh. 

Torban: Oh. 

uh, uh, Terry 

Rich: Yes. Correct. Torbs. 

Dan: Well done Torbs, Well, done Torbs. Come on, Matt, you guessed Rangers. Who did you, who were you 

thinking of?

Matt: Well, I just know that because of the band 

and the 

English club band in Europe, a 

lot of the English players 

will play for Rangers. At the 

Rich: Man, that's great knowledge.

Matt: But 

Dan: And 

Italian teams as well.

Rich: Yeah. 

Dan: Yeah.

Matt: after Italia 

90, didn't, 

it? Off the back of Italia 90.

Rich: I 

guess it was in terms [00:38:00] of kind of going. Oh god, 

carry on, carry on with your guessing.

Dan: How many more, Rich?

Rich: Uh, I think it 

was two. 

One was a winger.

Played for 

your Premier League 

team as well. Or Division One team, or Division One team as it was then. 

Dan: Played for United?

Rich: Oh god, you're not 

Everton here. I keep thinking you're Everton. No, for your, your, 

yeah, 

Dan: everything. Oh.

Um. Ball? 

Rich: Nope.

Dan: No? 

Torban: too late. Uh, not Trevor 

Farnsworth, 

Rich: Trevor something 

Dan: Trevor Sinclair? 

Rich: Trevor steven taubes you got it. 

Torban: There you go.

Dan: Came a bit later. Yeah 

Trevor Stephen. Well, who was the other

one?

Rich: Oh god, was it gary steven? I think off the top of my head. I can't 

Dan: Oh, the Stephens. 

Torban: Oh 

Rich: Might be the [00:39:00] other stevens. Yeah But no, it 

was it was my so my topic was kind of 

um, 90s italian football and going to visit that 

iconic 

stadium. So it was 

Torban: What match did you see? 

Rich: We watched them play against roma. So 

The Day after Mourinho got the 

sack, he was in the stands because he had a touchline 

ban. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was 

like,

um, second week in Jan, I think it was, third week in Jan. But it was, it was seeing that 

iconic stadium from when you were a

kid. 

Like you, say, it was just, it just, You know, 

Watching that at night, I 

think it was like an 8. 45 kickoff on a 

Sunday.

So kind of the build up to it, going up to 

it.

It's, it, there's no concourse in the ground. I don't know if you've been 

there.

so it's a, it's a, hell of a stadium. There's no concourse in the 

ground. So it's 

literally 

Dan: seen it, I've seen it from the outside, but it 

never went in. 

Rich: Yeah, it's 

like, so it's like walking up into an NC, CP car park. Up a flight of stairs and 

you're into it so you can't walk around 

anywhere. 

Um, and there was

some incredible stats with the ground. They [00:40:00] make a loss every 

time they play 

at the San Siro. Because they don't, they don't sell, yeah, 

they 

don't sell any, they don't sell 

any 

food and drink inside the ground.

So if you want to go, if you want a burger or a 

pint, 

there's like, 

you know, like what I would call like a popcorn 

seller.

So literally they, they must sell like, you know a couple of hundred drinks

because no one's, no one's sort of

buying 

anything off them. So yeah, it was 

just the experience of kind of going to that 

stadium

that, you know, Probably that was, an iconic stadium when I

was a kid, Wembley was, uh you know, you've got like 

three or four iconic 

stadiums and it was going to sort of see that and just it living up to the 

expectation of what you thought it was going to be like. 

So

Matt: like, 

Torban: to it? So 

when you, when you 

walked out into the stadium, 

Rich: Yeah, amazing 

Matt: I like hearing that it did live up 

to the expectation. 

Rich: Yeah, 

yeah, and we were 

Matt: things don't 

always, 

do they?

Rich: No, we kind of, they have like, they've got like,

um, uh 

we did a stadium tour the day 

before, So that 

was quite incredible, like walking through the stadium, which was bonkers. The worst set of 

[00:41:00] changing rooms I think I've ever been in.

Terrible for a pro club is incredible. Um, 

and there was a football museum there as 

well, but it did like, um, she had loads of iconic shirts 

of players that have played at the San Siro. They had an 

Italian 

national team exhibition on as well. So it was amazing

to kind of see all of that history and all the sort of players we grew up 

watching 

is like.

Massduks shirts from 

Mario

shirts, all the people that have kind of played 

in that ground, 

um, but yeah, it 

was kind of 

like one of those sorts of real things where 

probably you boys have been to Wembley or watched a

few big games that a few 

big stadium. They're kind of going, yeah, I'm here, 

you know,

incredible atmosphere all the way through 

as we were walking out 

the sort of 3000 

ultras were walking out. Behind us all dressed 

in 

black. It was, um, yeah, it was a, it was a really good experience. Um, and yeah,

good game to watch as well. 3 

1. 

Some good players on show, but 

yeah, it kind of like harking back to our days 

of Bracey, 

Maldini, 

you know, all of 

[00:42:00] those greats, Van Basten, Hullet. So yeah, it, was, it was a good trip. So yeah, I 

just, 

I, 

my topic was 90s Italian football. Discuss.

Torban: it, was good. I'd be, uh, I even had, uh, I'd Chantman Italia. So that was my, uh, Chantman Italia 98 or something like that. And, uh, so yeah, I played that for a few years instead of Chantman, the normal one. That was uh, so you yeah, you got to, know, the players even more, uh, all of the players playing that. And then we're obviously watching it, on Channel 4.

And kicking off as well that You know, talk about nineties Italian football, but that Italian 90 was the world cup for all of us, 

wasn't it? I mean, it was just, it doesn't sort of, I know it doesn't get any better than that. I think it just had, it just everything about it, you know, the, uh, the soundtrack, you know, the

fact that just all the drama, the players, just the look of it, it was even kind of.

Glossy TV, wasn't 

it? 

Rich: yeah,

Yeah. And the stadium, 

Dan: the soundtrack for Qatar [00:43:00] 

Torban: Well, not like the voodoo sailors, uh

Dan: in South

Africa. Yeah. Oh 

Torban: Oh my lord. 

Rich: yeah, but it was one of those, one of those stages where the 

atmosphere was brilliant from start to finish and hadn't, the stadium hadn't changed since the 

90s. I don't think they've done anything to it since 1990. Yeah, 

Torban: go to, you know, go to Wembley nowadays 

and it, you know, it feels so sort of, um, I don't know, top notch. Did, did it feel, 

or did that add to its

Rich: that, yeah, that, 

I think you've spot on how that exactly added to 

its charm. It's sort of

like, you know, the corners of it all kind of rounded off in the top of the stadium. 

Pretty open in terms of, um, in terms of the GR ground 

itself. Um, so yeah, I 

think it 

probably did. I think like 

the, the, the Spur Stadium app was brilliant for the NFL, but like brand new, everything's like sparkly.

Yeah. And it 

Matt: Yeah, I think, I think that's an amazing stadium. I think

they've done a great job. [00:44:00] 

Rich: yeah. 

So

Torban: I haven't been to that yet. What's the capacity there 

at Spur Stadium? 

Rich: Six. Is it 60 odd? 

Matt: I think, 60 odd, 

Rich: 60 odd, I think. 

Dan: Yeah.

something like that. 

Torban: What about what about the sound zero? What's the cut?

is that is that a sort of 40 50 or is it? 

Rich: Yeah, I, I, I, yeah, I think it's, I think it's about 60, 70, maybe, I don't, I don't know for 

Dan: You weren't listening on the tour, Rich. Yeah,

Rich: that's, um, an iconic stadium and to get around it before, I don't think they 

actually agreed on where they're going to go. 

So AC and Inter have got to agree on where the site is going to be and how, how that's going to kind of work in terms of the dynamics and the financials. So I don't 

think they've got anywhere to, um, which is quite kind of out of town y, the San Siro, in terms of a stadium and getting there. So, yeah, I don't even think they've got a 

site for the next round.

Matt: so they're not just going to redevelop [00:45:00] 

Rich: No, no, I'm pretty sure they're not. Um, 

yeah, and I think they're basically working 

on, you know, who gets what. From the deal and he's putting in what and what have you. So, yeah, it'd 

be interesting to see my sort of thought was I've got to go before they demolish it and go somewhere else, but yeah, could, could, could likely, I didn't realize there's so many teams in and around my lands.

There's like two or three other 

teams that are quite close by. I think like Monza might be one of them. Emplyee might be another one. There's, there's one or two that are pretty close by, 

but 

you couldn't imagine one of those ground sharing with someone who's got 20, 000 capacity stadium or 25, 

000, it's not going to work for 

either of those two teams. 

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. 

I think Italy

in the nineties is, is one of the greatest eras of football. I think we all, we all watch 

that, uh, football Italia. Um, and there's a podcast I recommend 

you, listen to, um, called Totally gso, 

Rich: Yes. Yeah, I've started 

Dan: by the, the, have you 

and I mean, one of the best things is 

the, in the intro

music [00:46:00] is the, um, gazzo music. 

Rich: have you, listened 

Dan: gets you, gets you 

Rich: quickly, have you listened to the, quickly, Kevin, with James, with, uh, James Richardson

Dan: James Richardson, 

Rich: on how, on how he got the job, how 

it, it was unbelievable. It, everything was done on a 

budget, 

Torban: Wasn't it, but it's basically, but 

it wasn't it by chance 

that 

you just 

Dan: was, he had an Italian, Italian girlfriend, 

didn't

Rich: yeah. And he basically spoke 

Italian and Yeah. And she was going over there 

and, um. He said the reason they did the, um, 

the, the coffee in the, uh, Gazzetta della Sport on, uh, Piazza was because they didn't have any 

money. 

So that was, there was no, like, clever thinking behind it, it was just like, I'll just talk on, it's free, I'll buy a 

paper, it's like, cost me a

couple of, couple of, quid, I'll sit here and just talk about it, yeah.

And he was saying, like, a lot of the 

time, they wouldn't have any runners there, so he'd have to fit, they'd, they'd, 

record the show, and he'd have to take the video 

back on a 

flight to London. For them to edit and produce what he needed to do. 

So yeah, it was amazing story. Cause you think you're like, you know, at Ray Wilkins, Kenneth Wollstoneham.

There's some Joe Jordan. There's some pretty big names in 

terms [00:47:00] of, you, 

know, support commentators and what 

have you. So yeah, it's well 

worth a listen. That 

is, this story is, um, 

is unbelievable. 

Dan: Oh, incredible. Yeah, 

but that, that podcast, the stories they have on there are amazing. 

Rich: and you're a bit, you're a bit Sam Doria tonight, Dan.

Dan: Yeah, Yeah, I got the

Sampdoria jumper on. Available to buy in, um,

Rich: Is there, is there any co presenter 

discounts knocking about? Is there discount codes for co 

presenters or 

Dan: yeah, well, 

I custom made one for Torben. 

Torban: Free, freebie for me. yeah. I haven't got it 

Dan: yeah. I sent him one. I made him an Everton one. Sent it to him. 

Matt: you're allowed to, you're 

allowed to actually say the name of, of, uh, of your 

company then. 

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't worry. 

Matt: You shied away 

Dan: Yeah. Sorry. Stirling 

sports. Yeah, I've got the logo So what I mean, one feature I mentioned earlier that I thought too is, is kind of doing a, either like a [00:48:00] best 11

or, or who's, who would you pick out of these three and the kind of one that, that is, was most obvious to me.

Um, 

probably gets, we've talked

about a thousand 

times, is who is better, uh, or, or put these in, in order, one, two and three, Gerard, Lampard and Scholes. 

And, um, for 

me, it's number one, Paul Scholes, number two, Gerard, number three, Lampard. And 

I know I'm a United fan and you're probably saying it's, uh, it's a bit 

biased, But I've always seen Scholes as, the best footballer out of the three of them and United won so many

titles during the 

90s that Scholes was dictating the tempo And the style of play that enabled us to win.

Torban's 

just fallen over it looks like.

Rich: over 

Dan: agree, doesn't agree, 

Torban: I [00:49:00] threw 

Dan: it, could not believe 

it. I

love Steven Gerrard. 

Torban: was still waiting for you to say, uh, a fourth player 

like

Any, Everton player, but you, you,

Dan: Any, or any Everton player.

Torban: I mean, just could be, yeah, There's so

many that you could choose from,

Dan: But yeah, and I 

think if, if, if, Scholes was, say, 

Spanish, he'd be, rated as highly as Xabi and Iniesta, 

who are rated as, um, potentially the two greatest Spanish players of all time. And I think other countries, when they look, would probably rate goals higher than them on a lot of levels. And I think English football fans probably rate Gerrard and Lampard higher because that's the style of football they prefer.

And it's that kind of, uh, mentality they have, especially Gerrard, of like, they're kind of picking the team up and leading from the front and, you know, just picking the ball up and [00:50:00] Winning games by, um, like pure grit and determination, whereas Scholes was, was winning games for United in a much more subtle way.

Um, but he did score a lot of long range goals as well, just like Gerald and Lampard did. So, um, so yeah, where would you rate

them? 1, 2, 3, uh, Matt. As

Matt: don't

Dan: the other United fan, do you agree with me on Skulls?

Matt: I, I mean, I don't, I don't find it easy to separate them. They were all excellent

players. They all had slightly different skill set and slightly different things that they brought to the team. And I think they

all equally brought an incredibly high level to.

All the teams they played. So I'm going to, 

I [00:51:00] don't want to offend any of them.

Dan: This has gone down well. I don't think they're listening.

Torban: You never know. 

Do you know what, I'm just Googling that, 

because 

Matt: No, I don't know. Like, yeah, Skulls was great, But then 

go with, was he better than Gerrard? I don't know.

Rich: What's the statistic, Dan, on their trophy hauls?

Torban: was 

Dan: I mean, Scholes will have, Scholes will 

Matt: I mean, trophy holes would 

Dan: Yeah, Scholes will have the most. And 

you 

Torban: But Lampard, Lampard's the highest scorer in the Premier League from midfield, is that right? Is he still 200 or something? Can't remember. No, 200 would 

it? Well actually maybe it's 

Dan: No, No, not 200.

Torban: No. 

Dan: I think he's in the 100 club. But, um, yeah, I mean, Would, would United have been as good if they had Gerrard instead of Scholes?

Matt: yes. 

Torban: It's so, it's, it's so, it's so difficult to, you know, I'd, so my first thought, I thought, well, who's, you know, [00:52:00] who's scored the most goals? Who's got the 

most assist? But it's not just about that, is it? Because especially when you look at, you know, Liverpool 

for,

for a lot, you know, a lot of those, 

they played during a, uh, during a similar time period. But, you know,

United for 

most of 

that were a lot better than. We'll have, you know, more titles. Chelsea probably not a million miles off, obviously Liverpool, you know, did well in the Cups and things, but,

you know, Scholes was playing in a, around a better team. 

But then, so that, would that mean that there was other players, other 

midfielders that 

Scholes played with that were scoring 

more goals, whereas Lampard and Gerrard would, you know, would probably score the greater 

percentage or ratio of goals.

from 

midfield, whereas, you know, in United they, they would 

get goals from, from more players. So, yes, that's why it's difficult. Trophy, so, 

you know, it's kind of unfair because United 

were head and shoulders for 

um, for so 

many years. So it's really, it's really 

difficult to sort of, 

how, how do 

you quantify it? 

Dan: It's

hard. 

Torban: I almost have to just 

Dan: It's because I often 

see people [00:53:00] not, like, would have Skulls as third in that. And like, quite easily people dismiss Skulls. I see quite a lot. They'll be like, oh yeah, obviously Skulls third. And then choosing like, oh it's hard to choose between Gerald and Lampard. Um, 

Rich: Did Skulls drive Man United forward as Far as Gerrard and Lampard did for their clubs?

Dan: uh, at times. He definitely did, especially like, Ferguson brought him back out of retirement 

to help us win a few more league titles. Um, and I don't think we would have won 

if he hadn't have brought Scholes back out of retirement. The way he could dictate a game, he controlled it from the middle and dictated the play.

The same as Xavi and Iniesta did for Barcelona in Spain. 

They'd keep that pace going, they'd keep the passes 

going. And later

in his career he did it with Carrick, 

and 

Matt: So do you think, do you think that United 

would have won less with Gerrard [00:54:00] instead of Scholes or with Lampard instead of Scholes?

Dan: Yeah, definitely in that later era when the team wasn't as good as the 90s. That 90s, late 90s team, I think, yeah, they would have done just the same with either of them. 

But when the team wasn't as good, in Ferguson's later 

Matt: well,

you don't think Gerrard would have had an equally strong impact as Scholes?

Dan: he 

didn't win any league titles with Liverpool, so. 

Matt: No, but he didn't have the players 

around him that 

Dan: No, but nor did, nor did Scholes in that, in that later time. I think if, if Scholes had gone to Liverpool, Liverpool would have a better chance of winning the league title, 

with Scholes instead of Gerrard. 

Torban: Really?

Rich: Hmm. 

Dan: Because he would have had them playing a better style of football. 

Rich: but were Man United ever reliant upon Skulls as much as the other two?

Dan: Um, not as much, no. I don't think, not as 

Rich: So with that reliance [00:55:00] comes a hell of a lot of pressure from 

a lot of angles in terms of what they had to handle and uh 

dragging their teams forward at 

times, I guess.

Dan: So, I 

mean, before 

this conversation, where would you have put them, Rich? And, uh, I 

Rich: uh, before, before I probably would have 

gone Skulls, Gerard, Lampard, but I'm 

not so sure. Um, yeah, I think a lot of it is what team you're playing 

in and what players 

you've got around you to sort of complement how you play and, 

and, and, you know, what job you need to do. But yeah, I mean, Torbjörn's stat with Lampard as a top scorer from 

midfield, that's, that's an unbelievable stat, isn't it, for some of the midfielders that have played in 

that, in that, um, in that top flight. 

Who's got the 

better all

Matt: was 

Dan: [00:56:00] look, at it from England's point of view 

Matt: I was just about to say, Skulls wasn't able to drag England through to

Rich: Yeah, that's 

that's what I mean. Has he got,

has he 

Dan: was never given the 

opportunity for England. Because we always played Gerrard and Lampard, and we often played Torban on like the 

left wing.

Like, if we'd have built that England team around Torban

Rich: that must mean they're better, mate. So they're coming to the top of my list now. They're moving up.

Matt: If Svengur and Eriksson thought that they were more worthy of the 

central

Rich: Who are we, who are we 

Matt: then, 

Rich: with, 

Sven? 

Dan: yeah, Swin was having us play 4 4

2.

If we'd 

Rich: I, I would, yeah, I think I'd, I would probably go Skulls and, and, I don't know, Gerrard closely behind in their Lampard, but I've got 

no basis for that. really, other than,[00:57:00] 

Dan: It doesn't matter. This is just a

matter of

opinion. 

Rich: I'd go, I'd go those three, that order.

Dan: of us are right.

Rich: No,

No, hard to quantify that one, I

think, with the with the 

Dan: I think the main reason I've thought about it a lot because I always feel like people underrate Skulls. Uh, especially when comparing him 

to, to those three, mainly, I think probably mainly 

because he was, Um, 

in England terms, they were, they were rated ahead of him by most England 

managers. That's, that's probably,

why people don't 

view him that. 

Rich: And I reckon a lot is because of his, his, his, um, personality as well, probably. 

Torban: Yeah, 

Rich: he did, He's not in the limelight, quiet 

guy, 

doesn't like the limelight. Whereas I'm not saying Jared and Lampard did, but 

they were certainly probably captains of both of those teams, weren't they, at various times that they played for.

So yeah, maybe get more plaudits [00:58:00] because of that as well.

Dan: Yeah, yeah, I could say. But yeah, I mean, 

I do often look back on that England era, 

uh, like 2002 World Cup and thinking we should, we should have done with the team we had, we should have done a lot better. And a lot of it was that midfield and how we didn't, we were just, just trying to fit all the best players into this team 

when it didn't make a team.

And the manager 

needed to have the bravery 

to drop one or two of those 

three. to make a better team and basically 

base the whole

team around one of those players 

whether no matter which one of them it was if we'd have built a 

whole team around the strength of Gerrard or Lampard or Scholes then the team would have been 

better than just trying to play them all in a in a line basically. 

So I think we're coming to the 

end. Um, is there, I don't know if there's anything else anyone had to uh, to 

add to the proceedings before I wrap it up.

Torban: I didn't give my order 

of what I'd [00:59:00] say. 

Rich: Yeah. I I'd like to hear Torben's order as well,

Dan: Okay. Oh, so I thought you were kind of 

abstaining like Matt was. 

Torban: No, no, I'd chip in. Goals win matches and Lampard scored more than the other guys. So I'd put him at the top And then I'd probably go Steve and Gerrard for Being, uh, I don't know, much more, much more of an obvious influence on matches. You know, you look at the, look at the, the the comeback in Istanbul and all that.

Um, and then Skoll's third, although.

It's just an impossible one to 

to, properly quantify, but that'd be, uh, 

yeah, that'd be, I'll go, yeah, Lampard, Gerrard, 

Torban.

Dan: Nice. 

Matt: well, maybe I should, maybe I should put Gerrard top because no one else has.

Torban: There you go. Torben, 

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