Kaka!

In our top 100 countdown we are at 98 with Brazilian superstar Kaka! Rich has an incredible personal story about Kaka to share as we go through his amazing career.

We also talk all about right backs. Covering everyone from Angel Rangel to Javier Zanetti.

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Music written by Matt & Gilbert Spencer-Smith

Transcript

Have you? Oh yeah, I think it's going round. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's kind of just a cold, but like, the worst cold I've ever had. Can't shift it. And Hayley had it a couple of weeks ago, all in your sinuses. Oh, no. And um, I felt like I'd been punched in the face.  

There's no rest. There's no rest for the young family as well.

You're just kind of, I think you're just topping up, topping up the strain of it, aren't you, with the boys going back to school and nursery as well.  

And like, the, the pain in my face, like the sinus has gone now, but I've still got, I'm just kind of getting past the headache. As long as I don't lean forward, like if I, if I bend forward to get anything, my head just explodes.

Oh, 

wait, I promise I will lean forward with my squeaky chair this week as well  

Have you put some wd 

40 in it? Trust me, so I just want I just won't move i'll just be like, uh, like a statue  

That's all right  It was funny that I was editing that our first one and um, yeah Someone would be talking and and i'm like isolating background noises and it was like, okay.

Um, You I think Torben was talking, I talked over him a bit, so I was like, I'll, I'll, I'll cut me out. Yeah. And then I played it back, I'm like, oh, there's a weird noise, what's that?  That's Richard's squeaky chair, so I, so I had to mute you, and then listen to it back again. It's like, sounds like someone's singing in the distance.

And uh, so, my brother's wife was singing in the other room, so I had to mute, so I'm having to HP.  Time, I'm having to go through every single one of them.  

This podcast, uh, presented and founded like, mate, it's a lot more that goes into what the viewers don't see.  

Yes, exactly, exactly. 

Welcome to episode four. of The Hand of Pod.  Uh, come around fast, I think. And, um,  Matt and Torben can't join us, uh, today, so I'm joined by the Welsh wonder himself, Mr. Richie Evans. for having me, Dan. How are you doing, Richard? 

Nice to see you. Yeah, good. Very well, pal, thanks. How's, how's your week gone?  

Uh, yeah, I was just saying to you before, been a bit, been a bit sick, bit of a cold, but, um, getting through it and, uh, and plowing on as you kind of have to these days. 

So we're at, um, Number 98 in our, uh, top 100 players countdown. And, uh, 98 brings us a Brazilian legend. But before that, we're going to start talking about right backs  and a position that I, uh, I played a bit during my career. My, uh, my. Short and unillustrious playing career. 

And you, you were a bit of a defender as well. 

Yeah, I played, I was probably a bit of a sweeper. I played, played quite a bit of right back at points. Um, nicest position on the park. Uh, an old professional footballer once told me. Uh, probably right, I would say, as well. Get plenty of time on the ball, can move, you know, you got visions,  um, of the pitch when you're moving forward.

And yeah, a nice, uh, nice position of 

1 2 11. 

I 

much, I much preferred playing in the centre, centre back or centre mid. Did you? I kind of felt more, more kind of in control of, of what was going on if I was in the centre. I did, did feel a bit isolated on the, you know,  By the side. I used to quite like, 

yeah, I used to  find you get a lot of time, get your foot on the ball, could ping a ball down the line, could get a few crosses in.

So I quite liked it in terms of opposition. But yeah, I know what you mean. You could get quite isolated depending on what team you were playing in, or if you've got a jinky left winger up against you as well. 

Yeah, yeah. I mean, um, at the, at the moment England is blessed with a kind of plethora of, uh, world class right backs. 

Most of which are injured at the moment but with, uh, Trent Alexander Arnold and Rhys James, Kieran Trippier and, uh, Karl Walker. It's, uh, I mean,  you'd argue to say we've got like all the best right backs in the world right now, wouldn't you?  

Yeah, I think England probably have um, I think the quality and the depth they've got certainly Um, and I I look back at a few 90s, uh fullbacks for you Dan because I know you like your 90s football So i'll throw in uh, Lee, Lee Dixon. 

Yes, uh, 

Dan Dan Petrescu, Dan 

Petrescu 

Yeah, and my favorite, uh, Danny Mills  

Danny Mills,  yes. Yeah, I remember Danny Mills being, being quite, uh, filthy, for want of a better word. Yeah,  

yeah, I was going to go combative, but I think filthy probably, probably fits his, uh, his player profile quite well. 

Not quite Ben Thatcher level, but um, but halfway there, I'd say.

No. No, absolutely not. I remember Ben Thatcher, uh, I remember hearing he always had to turn down going on Soccer AM because he could never guarantee he wouldn't be able to swear on live TV. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! 

That's a great joke. Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me. He was, uh, he was fierce in the tackle and pretty, uh, pretty fierce in his all round game as well, wasn't he, Ben Thatcher?

Yeah. 

Yeah, Dan Petrescu, we talked about, um, on the Georgie, uh, Hadji episode. Oh, okay. Great Romania team. So I was having a good chat with Torben about him. Um, he did very well for Chelsea, didn't he? Dan Petrescu. 

Oh, huge. Was that, was that FA Cup final goal? Was that the, the one I remember him like, was it against Middlesbrough?

Was that the, uh, was that the FA Cup final? I remember him driving, driving forward and was that early on in the game as well, I think. 

Well, he's, um, didn't, didn't Di Matteo score after like. Four seconds or something. Oh, it might be premature. Yeah. You could well, you could 

probably write that. Yeah. 

I mean a lot,  I hear a lot of chat these days about modern fullbacks and uh, kind of wingbacks and overlapping and how it's, it's such a kind of modern thing, but I was going back through the kind of greatest uh, fullbacks of all time in my research and, and as you go back they're all  Attacking and probably the 

yeah, very much 

one of the one of the founders of Of the kind of attacking and fullback I found was Djalma santos  Who was brazilian right back in the 50s and 60s?

Uh, oh gone right right 

the way back. Yeah 

gone right back there literally right back and he was uh, he won consecutive world cups with brazil in 58 and 62, uh, He played in four and he had over a Over 400 appearances for two different clubs for, uh, uh, Portuguesa and Palmeiras, both Brazilian clubs. That's a lot 

of games, especially back then as well. 

And he had 98 caps for Brazil. And, uh, he was in the World Cup team of the tournament on, uh, three separate occasions. And there's only two other players to do that in Beckenbauer and Philipp Lahm.  So, uh, but he was no way, mate. That's a great, great stat. Yeah. Yeah. Great stat. But he was known for his attacking style nickname morale, which was the wall, which is actually for his defensive abilities, um,

But he, he was kind of known as this contributor to the development of the, uh, the role of the fallback. Uh, took a lot of free kicks, penalties, and, and kind of known for the. The long throw, but, um, yeah, so I think Djalma Santos was a bit of a trailblazing  right back and, uh, and built in the mold of a, a lot of, a lot of modern right backs now.

And I think people don't, when people are easily equipped to kind of say, Oh, look, look at what they're doing now. They've invented this, but I think people don't often look back to, to that kind of modern fullback and the, and it's also that, uh, inverted fullback you hear talked about a lot, which I think people think.

Pep Guardiola invented,  but that's happened for many, many years. And my first memories is really of, um, not a right back. Well, he could play right back, but mainly there's a left back in Dennis Irwin.  Uh, yeah, yeah. For, for United under Ferguson. But he would often be that inverted role of coming into the center. 

Absolutely 

involved in the game. Most, most fullbacks, I don't know, Dennis Irwin was your penalty taker at United took a few penalties, scored a few free kicks, a lot of fullbacks, normally good, good, good strikers of the ball. And you see, you see, um, you see them score a few goals. I think most, uh, most fullbacks like that, but yeah, you're right.

I mean, my research went nowhere near back as, as, as far as I think I got to. Carlos Alberto because I was um, 

Yes. 

I got quite, got quite into the New York Cosmos for a spell. I read the book, watched the DVD. I don't know if you've seen that but, you know, amazing kind of story with Evan. Obviously Carlos Alberto.

I have, I love it.  Ah, unbelievable. Both the book and the film are brilliant because you've got, You know, Pele out there, you've got Beckenbauer playing and you've got Carlos, Carlos Alberto out there. So I think he, yeah, finished his career at the Cosmos. So I think he played like 80 odd games on, you know, proper old school AstroTurf in the 70s in the US and the pitches he played on there.

But probably synonymous with that, with that gold in the, in the 70 World Cup final. 

Yes,  

we're all in forward and yeah, we're all in forward and striking it in the bottom corner. So yeah, I think he's another one that we're probably ahead of his time in terms of attacking fullbacks and very much aligned with like the fullbacks we see today. 

Definitely, definitely. And that was, that was known as one of the best team goals of all time, wasn't it?  

Yeah, it was probably a bit Man City, I guess. How many passes went into that? I think she'd remember, must have been about, was it 20 plus? I can't remember off the top of my head. But it was certainly a, a, a, a lot of, uh, possession before he comes bombing down the wing and, and, and, and bullet strike in the bottom corner. 

Yeah, it was a, it was a layoff from Pele, wasn't it? It was, uh, it was brilliant going and all, and all the kind of skills and flair in between of the, of the passing that just kind of made it. But, um, yeah, Carlos Alberto, he was captain of Brazil for that, uh, World Cup. Lifted the Jules Rimet,  so yeah,  

iconic trophy. 

Yeah. But yeah, he was known for, um, for his attacking style as well as his defensive capabilities. But yeah, and I think he, cause he, he played at, uh, Sao Paolo with Pele and then again with Pele at, at New York Cosmos, but that was, that was the only world cup he played in, uh, 1970 cause, uh, he got, he got injured in just before the world cup in 74.

Cool. And, uh, he kind of lost a bit of pace apparently. And then, uh, then ended up moving to centre back later in his career because he didn't, didn't have the pace to, to bomb forward and, and get those, uh, World Cup final goals.  

Happens to the best of us Dan, that's when we, when we're on site. Yeah, oh yes. 

illustrious careers as well. But I think he only had like 50, 53 caps for the Brazil, didn't he? Which you kind of expect he'd have a lot 

more. Hmm. I mean, unfortunately, some of us never had the pace in the first place to lose. So, 

uh,  

another player I, uh, came across, well, knew of.  Quite, quite well. And, uh,  up there with one of England's greatest ever right backs, talking of England as we did, uh, is Phil Neal. 

And he's a  kind of Liverpool legend and has won more, uh, titles with, with Liverpool than, than anyone else. I mean, him and Gary Neville have probably got many, many titles between them, but he won eight league titles with Liverpool and four European Cups.  Uh, and he was the only player. Liverpool player to play in all four of their European Cup wins in the 70s and 80s,  

which is a huge statistic when you think about how, how good they were over that period of time.

And yeah, you look at that trophy hall as well. Some of the teams they were playing against. Yeah, that's, that's a phenomenal record, isn't it? And  I would have thought hundreds of appearances as well for Liverpool.  

Yeah. And he, uh, he, he was known for, he scored a lot of goals and known, known for scoring important goals.

And I think Liverpool fans called him Zico.  He, uh, he took penalties and he scored a penalty.  scored a penalty in the European cup final in 77. So, um, yeah, huge, huge player. Uh, next player I looked at was, uh, Gianluca Zambrotta. I'm sure who you remember.  

Yeah. I mean, massive amounts of appearances, didn't he?

I think he played like over, over 200 times for Juve, 50 odd times for Barcelona, 80 odd times for, for AC Milan and a hundred caps for Italy. I mean, that's, that's some set of clubs and some, some appearance record for Italy and yeah, Mr. Consistent in terms of a player. Yeah. I remember him. when we were growing up.

Yeah, 

won the World Cup with Italy 2006  and uh, won the Serie A with both Juventus and Milan. So, um, yeah, he was, he was always that player you knew when you're kind of looking at defenders. Yeah, I was Zambrotta right back. Yeah,  sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 

yeah. Never, never not on the team sheets.  

Yeah. Now here's an interesting one.

I think you'll like this. I came across, you may or may not have heard of Manfred Keltz.  Manfred Keltz. I've never heard of him.  So he won Euro 1980 with Germany  and, uh, 69 caps for Germany. Hamburg legend. He won three Bundesligas with Hamburg and won the European Cup with Hamburg in, uh, 1982 83. Now his He was renowned for these kind of curving crosses into the box so renowned that they his actual crosses had their own name and they were known as the bananenflanken. 

That's unbelievable research. 

Yeah, and there's not many, there can't be many, uh, footballers have had a move named after 

them. I mean the cross.  

You've obviously got things like the Penenka Penalty and things like that, but your cross has its own name, it's got to be pretty good, hasn't it?  

Yeah, you've got to be happy with that, that's a legacy that lives on long after your career, doesn't it? 

Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of Germans out there that will very much know Manfred Kautz.  Yeah,  

that's an incredible, uh, incredible bit of, uh, bit of research there.  

Yeah, I came across that, I was very, very pleased to read that. Yeah. Yeah.  Who else have you, were you looking at, Richard? 

On my list, um, well, I think if you say, say to me, Dan, right back, so it would be Cafu straight away  from, from kind of our, our era.

Um,  you know, I think he was 38 when he last played Tracy Milan, which to play at that level at that age in that, you know, Era as well. Um, 20 year career,  he had 95 games for Sao Paolo, 165 for Rome, 119 for AC Milan. He's got 143 caps, I think for Brazil.  So he's the most capped player. Um, so to have that level of career with those clubs and at international level with a, with a trophy hall he had is is pretty spectacular I think in terms of, uh, a career.

I just love watching him play. Just sort of played with the freedom and he,  but he would be.  Always one of the first names if someone said to me, we're chatting about right backs, who do you want to chat about? It would definitely be Cafu. 

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, Cafu's on the shortlist  for best ever, definitely.

And, um, he was just kind of extraordinarily energetic. Just, he just kind of summed up bombing up and down, didn't he? That was, yeah, yeah, 

yeah. He was up and back with a trick, with a goal as well. Who, so, so in terms of, in terms of United then, Dan, who's your, who's your, well, I know probably a couple you're going to say, but who's your, who are your favorite right backs from the eras at, uh, United?

Yeah. I mean, Gary Neville, it's got to be Gary Neville.  Really? 

That's a huge, 400 games, 85 caps for England.  Mr. Consistent.  

Mr. Consistent. It's gotta be. He was never kind of fancy,  doing anything that you're kind of going, wow. And he was, he was around the same time as Cafu. So I think whenever,  uh, during the nineties, when we, when we were looking at Gary Neville as being like.

So good. It was always like, well, obviously he's nowhere near as good as Cafu. Even at the time we'd say that. But,  he's, you, we've got, there's no one you'd kind of replace him with apart from Cafu, or maybe Xavier Zanetti.  So when he was out, 

was he, he wasn't really very, very rarely out injured, was he, Gary Neville?

So if he, if he was out injured or suspended, who would, who would sort of, who would unite and replace him within those, in those, during those years and those times? 

Phil, Phil Neville, Phil Neville, John O'Shea, John O'Shea, we're coming right back, Wes Brown played, played right back in the early days, Dennis Irwin left and right, but, um, yeah, I mean, I think Fergie was a fan of the, the versatile.

Utility man. So he had loads of those players like Oshae and Phil Neville, who could play left back, right back defensive  midfielder. So he'd often be kind of switching it up, but, um,  yeah, Gary Neville, he was that partnership he had with Beckham in the, uh, in the late nineties was, was incredible. It was, it was, And I, and I think, and I've heard people say, I know my cousin, who's also a United fan was, he's very much like, Neville wouldn't have been as good as he was without that Beckham partnership, because Beckham made it easy for him, because all he had to do was just run, run down the wing, and Beckham would just skate.

Yeah, like, I guess he played 

throughout the youth team together on there as well, like a bit of a telepathic understanding. They both know what they're going to do. Neville's not really going to go past the halfway line and get the ball to Beckham, and he does what he does.  

But watching United and England at that time, it just made you so It was a kind of only part of the pitch where you wouldn't feel any, any sort of nerves when we had the ball.

Like, you knew nothing was going to go wrong on that right hand side of the pitch with Beckham and Neville there.  So, um, to have that was, 

was immense.  And both super consistent, weren't they? I don't remember them going, going through too many periods of, you know, not in form for, for, for club and country just delivered consistently over a  decade or so.

Yeah, long period. 

I think, I think Neville maybe had one injury where he was out for quite a while, but, um,  later on his career. But apart from that, he was, he was in that United team the whole time.  Two main players through that. Kind of 90s, early 2000s era, uh, right backs, uh, with Javier Zanetti, who I mentioned, and Lillian Thuram,  uh, Yeah, Thuram, 

Turam, the same massive amounts of appearances for big, big clubs as well.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, physical, quick. Won, won the World Cup with France in that 98 team and, and Euro 2000.  And he was just that kind of shoo in at right back for that team. He was just,  142 caps for France he's got. Most capped outfield player.  

Yeah, I mean that's like, you know, over the period of time he's playing, he's playing like over 150 games for Monaco, same for Parma, same for Juve, finishes off at Barcelona.

Some big, big teams of, of, of those years. And like you say, anything, 100 caps is incredible. 142 caps to be that on your game for so long.  Hmm. Is he was, he was in that, um,  

he was in the UA for cup winning Palmer team, wasn't he?  He was, yeah. Classic team. Yeah. Yeah. Great team.  , 

throw, throw some names to me from that team. 

Um, Veron, was he still he was he there? Point Var.  Yeah. Veron. I think Cannavaro?  

Yeah, Cannavaro, it was in gold. Was it Buffon? 

No. Buffon, yeah, Buffon would have been in gold. Yeah, it might have been, Buffon would have been in gold. Zola, Crespo, Asprilla, I don't know. They might have not been there at that point. 

I'm just naming ex Palmer players. 

Yeah, DeCorey's a good one. Yeah, that's pretty, uh, great one. Dino Baggio.  Yeah, Dino Baggio, yeah, you nailed it. Some great names, I don't even care if they win in that era. We're not, 

we're not checking it. It'll do. 

Some  Palmer Hall of Famers, that. Yeah. 

Yeah, and then, like I said, Javier Zanetti.

Absolute into legend.  He was and and he was probably my favorite right back growing up I'd say chavis net even though he played for argentina. He didn't he didn't have the feel of the rest of the argentina team that I hated in the 90s  because he was  He just he just looked like a gentleman didn't he and he looked and played like it.

Yeah, he did. Yeah 

very much  Yeah, yeah. And he, and he was kind of a utility player as well. Wing back, defensive midfielder, could play left or right. But yeah, 19 years at Inter. And he was, uh, he was in the Jose's treble winning team in, in 2010.  

19 years at one club.  That'd be unheard of these days, wouldn't it?

No one, no one's doing 19 years.  

And not even your kind of home city club, another country. No, no, you  

probably embrace the culture and the city and the fans and the club. And yeah, that is, that is some, uh, some record.  

Yes. And the other side of Milan, someone that cropped up for me, Mauro Tassotti.  Going, going back a little bit further.

Yeah. 

Yeah, he was a bit, he was marauding, he was all action. Um,  I was talking to someone about him the other day. You could sort of name that Milan team, couldn't you, in terms of like, the defenders in it and obviously Maldini on the other side. But yeah, Sotti was some player and he scored a few goals as well.

With um, was it Costa Curta and Barasi inside of him? 

Yeah, yeah, incredible. Like, he played alongside some of the best  defenders the world's ever seen. But yeah, three, three European Cups he won with Milan  as a right back, so can't really argue with that.  

No, I mean, some record and that was, that was, we're showing our ages now, but that was probably pre sky.

That was, that was the side of trans world sport. That was pretty much the only Euro sport. Maybe that was probably the only football you were getting on a Sunday afternoon, watching, uh, watching some of those teams. Teams play some some world class players. 

Oh, yeah. Yeah incredible. That was that was the the kind of glory days of Syria I think we talked about it on the first pod didn't we? 

Yeah, he was yeah the greatest team at that point. I'd imagine Oh hugely. Yeah.  Yes. I was talking about  The style of the modern fullback and how Djalma Santos was the founder of it. But when I first started thinking of, oh,  where did it first come from that this kind of marauding fullbacks and becoming more part of the team rather than being that kind of rigid right back.

And I was thinking of the kind of total football of the Dutch  and, uh, came across player Wim Serbija.  I don't know if you've heard of him. Wim Surbier. No, I haven't. Wim Surbier. So, uh, he was a Dutch right back, uh, in the total football era in the 70s. Uh, he, uh, he And he was there right back for both times they came second in the World Cup in 74 and 78.

And he won the European Cup three times on the bounce with Ajax. 71, 72, 73.  He was part of this total football where every, no player kind of had a strict position. And you all, you all joined in and every, every player could do everything. So, um, I'd imagine he was very much a part of the kind of trailblazer into the, the kind of modern fullback that we see today. 

I read Johan Cruijff's book and he, he talks about the training they did at Ajax and how, Exactly like you said there, they would play out of position all the time.  So, defenders were comfortable on the ball, attackers could defend, vice versa, and it was kind of like, you know, what they're doing now, they were doing 30 years ago at Ajax,  in terms of the methods and, and, and, um, you know, keepers had to be good with the ball at their feet, etc.,

and things like that. So it's, um, yeah, I mean, to win the, win the European Cup three times in a row.  Any stage is, uh, is insane. Yeah, but that, I think they were the team of the, of that era, weren't they? The, the, uh, the Cruyffs and the, uh, and the other players that they would have in that, in that starting 11. 

Yeah. That Ajax team. Yeah. Incredible. Well, I was, uh, cause I was looking a lot of that, um, that Dutch team with, uh, cause I was looking at Mario Kempes the previous point and he's, um,  Uh, then beating, uh, Holland in, in 78, but I'd imagine if like Holland had won one of those World Cups, especially, probably especially 78, because Cruyff wasn't there, that,  that those players would have been much more cemented in, in history and in our minds.

Because the fact I, I hadn't heard of Wim Surbier, um, I just came across him in my research and you, you, you hadn't heard of him. I'd imagine Dutch people have definitely heard of him, but, um, if they'd have won that World Cup without Cruyff.  I'm sure we'd be talking about a lot of those players a lot more. 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think, I think with, with that, with that sort of brand of football they played and like you say, him as a, as an attacking fullback and, and marauding out from the back with the ball. And, and yeah, I think, I think he's spot on there. 

Another brilliant right back, Giuseppe Bergomi, who won the World Cup for Italy in 1982.  Uh, another Inter Milan legend, spent his entire career at Inter Milan. He was nicknamed Lozio,  which was, translates to the uncle. And this was due to his impressive moustache, which he  

I was gonna say, I was, I was gonna say his impressive eyebrows. 

But he was a hard player, Bergomi. 

Yeah, Bergomi, yeah. But he apparently had this moustache from when he was, uh, when he was a teenager, even. And he started playing, so 

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. I reckon he, I reckon he'd probably have a really hairy back as well. He looks like an awesome character. 

But he was, he was old school, proper, no nonsense, right back, none of this marauding stuff. 

No, he did, well, I think he probably typifies the Italians,  you know, like to defend of that era and very much defending was, was an art form, wasn't it? As much as the attacking fullback was. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

So I've got two more  right backs I wanted to talk about. Um, yeah, one of them, I'm not, I'm not sure if we're allowed to talk about anymore, uh, since he's been recently, uh, put in prison is, uh, Danny Alves.

Yeah. I, I scrubbed him off my list.  

Did you? Yeah. 

Yeah. I mean, um, yeah, I mean, I think like, wow.  Yeah. That's, that's, uh, that's some story, isn't it? 

Yeah, but I mean, I mean, to talk about his career, he was a perennial winner, most decorated player in history, 43 titles, um, part of Guardiola's, uh, incredible Barca team. 

He won UEFA Cup twice with Sevilla, six La Ligas with Barca, three Champions League with Barca, he won Serie A with Juventus, he won Ligue 1 twice with PSG,  126 caps for Brazil, never won the World Cup though, never won the World Cup. Two Copa Americas, and, uh, claim to fame. Oldest men's player ever to win the Olympics.

Yeah, I was going to say, 

I thought he'd gone to the Olympics in the back of my mind. I had that, but yeah, I mean, again, winning some major trophies with some massive teams. And what, probably having a 15 year career, but yeah, it's, uh, kind of, uh, ended in some way, isn't it? With the recent, uh, recent prison sentence.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so we'll breeze past him, but he, I mean, he's potentially one of the greatest right backs of all time. But, um.  I'm not sure if he's allowed on any list these days, but  not in football anyway. He's 

definitely on some list. 

But the last, uh, last player I've actually, uh, I've mentioned him already, uh, because he was one of the only other players other than Djalma Santos to, uh, be in the World Cup team of the tournament three times. That's Philipp Lahm.  

Yeah, he was, IMI remember watching him in his younger days and he got a bucket load of caps for Germany, didn't he?

Yeah.  Scored 113 caps 

for Germany,  scored quite a few important goals for club and country. Was he, was he a one man club? Was he just Munich or did he play elsewhere? No, 

uh, well, kind of. Yes. He, he, he was, but he went on loan, uh, to Stuttgart, I think.  when he was youth at Munich, but then played the rest of his career at Munich.

So kind of a one club, one club man, but he, yeah, he was, he could play right and left back, but I think he was, he was right footed. So I've kind of  named him as a right back. Um, But yeah, World Cup winning captain, 2014 with Germany.  Won the treble under Guardiola for Bayern in 2013.  And, uh, yeah, he could also play.

He was another one that's like a utility. Could play defensive midfielder  as well as right and left back. I think that's kind of,  

It wasn't really a Thuram type character, was he? He was more, he was, was he quite small? Not, not particularly bold, not particularly tall, but so Yeah, so, I, I did, 

I did read, I did read his nickname was, uh, Magic Dwarf.

LAUGHS So, yeah,  very different to, like, Cafu and Thuram, who are so kind of powerful, but probably more like Gary Neville.  Um, a little bit more attacking. Yeah, he's pretty, 

he's pretty Good on the ball attacking score, school yards. Mm-Hmm. Important goal. Consistent, but again, super consistent in terms of Yeah. 

Byron and, and Germany. Yeah. He's, he's a great show.  I got one from my, my club, Swansea City, and it's, uh, it's a, he's, he's sort of inducted into the, uh, into the folklore at Swans. He's a, he's a, a right back called Lel Wral.  Oh, yes. And, um, yeah, sort of came up, came up, yeah, came up. So he was sort of marauding all action, good on the ball, super passionate guy about the city and the club and. 

He's one of those where  I think Roberto Martinez, Graham Jones, we're going to watch over in Spain, scouting, going to watch a game,  uh, the game they were watching got canceled. So they knocked their flight back to watch another game that was going on later on in the evening and they were watching a strike yet.

So they weren't even watching him, but ended up picking up him for 10 grand. Cause he played up, played so well in this game. I made like hundreds of appearances for Swansea, like cult hero, probably in the hall of fame, just one of those amazing sort of quirks of fate that like someone got to see him, saw something in him.

Um, and he was brilliant for Swansea in the championship and, and in the Premier League for, for, 

you know, eight, 

nine seasons. And it's just on a, you know, bought, bought for, for pennies basically in a game that the managers weren't even going to watch. So I love stuff like that, where he's, you know, he's, I think he's playing in like the fourth division of Spain, somewhere like that, when it comes to the UK.

I mainly 

remember him from, um, fantasy premier league and having him in my team occasionally, because he was, he was, he was an attacking defender. So yeah, yeah,  

yeah.  I love him. We'll get, we'll get him in there. 

So, I mean, out of everyone we talked about, who would you put as your greatest right back of all time? 

Yeah, I'd have to go, uh, probably Cafu, I would say. Loved his style, loved the way he played.  Huge amount of games for all the teams he played for. Um, yeah, you're not going to be Brazil's most capped outfield player unless you're  top quality, are you? So, yeah, I'd go Cafu, I think. What about you? 

Yeah, um, I think I'd actually agree with you on this one, Rich.

It's um, probably between, for me, between  Cafu and Philipp Lahm. I think Lahm was, he was so good for Germany and Bayern. Just never, never really put a foot wrong. And, uh, but yeah, Cafu, just, just memories of, of a kid,  just Cafu was that player that  was just streets ahead of every other right back. He was doing things that you just didn't see any other, any other player do in that position at that time.

And you see, he's one of the few 

people, few people that are synonymous with a position as well.  Yeah, you say right back and you instantly think of him.  

Yeah. 

Yeah, definitely  

As I mentioned earlier, we're moving on to number 97 in our top 100, which is um, Brazilian and ac milan legend. Mr. Ricardo kaka  Um now i've got uh a whole bio, uh to to talk about but I know you actually told me uh In our pre show conversations that um, you had a little story about caca i've 

got I don't know if i've ever told you this story.

Um, it's one of my was one of my best stories from um From, uh, our time living in, in Dubai and Dubai, you know, you came and visited us, um, on numerous occasions as well. So living in Dubai, it was very much like a little village. So everyone kind of, uh, back in the, uh, in the, uh, in the sort of when we there 2006 to 2010, so population wasn't as high as it was now.

So, yeah, I had quite a few.  Bizarre instances football wise playing against people and, and, and, and meeting, um,  uh,  some pretty high profile players out there. So I was, I was, I was in, in, in the flat one Saturday morning and a good mate of mine who's, who's still out in Dubai now, very, very much involved in the, uh, in the football scene out there.

He had his own coaching business at, at, uh, at the point in time, and he's, uh, It brings me up on a Saturday morning. He's like, what are you up to? I'm like, not a lot. He's like, right. I'm coaching down at, uh, Jumeirah beach hotel. Bring your gazelles down. We'll have a bit of breakfast. We'll have a bit of a knockabout.

So I was like, okay, perfect. So I drive, drive down, drive down to Jumeirah beach hotel and my gazelles in my hand,  wander, have a bit of breakfast. He's like, right. We're going to have a few, a few of the hotel guests. We're going to have a give them a five a side. So I was like, right,  okay. So he goes, uh, who's your favorite player, Kaka or Leonardo? 

So I was like, well, yeah, probably Kaka. He goes, right. Five aside, you're on Kaka's team. He's staying at Jumeirah Boots Hotel. I'll go on Leonardo's  team. There's like four or five other hotel guests on either side. And Sam Allardyce is refereeing it.  So we play, we play five side at the Rera Beach Hotel with me on one, one side with Kaka, A mate on the other team with Leonardo and Sam Allis Yeah.

Ing this kick, kick him out. So that's my, my one interaction. With, with Kaka,  just so happened that Leonardo was playing on the same five a side pitch. So yeah, it was, it was very, very bizarre  to say the least. Uh, but yeah, uh, incredible, memorable half an hour, having a knockabout with two, uh, two Brazilian superstars. 

I mean, how did you, how did you play? How did they play? 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they were, uh, they were absolutely superb. And yeah, my performance would probably be now below par at best. I would have thought against those two, but yeah, very, very unique in terms of two really nice guys. I think they were both still playing at that point in time.

Um, but yeah, just, um, very, very down to earth, uh, nice, nice blokes, the pair of them.  That's incredible. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, it's a good one. That's one of the good good Dubai, Dubai yarns that 

Well, Kaka was brought to Milan and one of the reasons that Milan got him was Leonardo,  um, with the Brazilian connection.

And then, and he was actually brought in to kind of be, like, they thought maybe he's, he's the next Leonardo when he went, when he went to Milan. Um, but yeah, I'll, I'll get, I'll run you through, um, Kaka's career. Jump, jump in if you, uh, if you want to kind of add anything or, or pick anything apart. But he, um,  he was, he was playing at Sao Paolo,  uh, when he was a teenager and in March, 2001 scored two goals for Sao Paolo to win, uh, Uh, 2 1 in a comeback game and, uh, which secured him the league title in his, uh, first season for the Maniga.

So he was an instant kind of superstar in Sao Paulo. Um, but as a teenager, when he was a bit younger, he hit his head on the bottom of a swimming pool when diving in and, uh, broke six vertebrae in his back.  Um, and  he could, should have been paralyzed most likely. And, uh, I think  he, he, he kind of. And, uh, avoided all injury, recovered really quickly and, and doctors said it was, uh, it was a gift from God and  he was already brought up in a Christian family, but this kind of  made his faith huge in his life because, um,  he kind of believed that it was, it was his gift from God that he was not paralyzed and you kind of saw all his points to the sky celebrations and a lot of the time he's lifting his shirt with, um, like, um, Messages about Jesus and things on his, on his t shirt underneath throughout his career.

So that was, that was kind of what,  uh, inspired that in him throughout his career.  But yeah, and you think like a 

spinal fracture at 18, when you're developing, uh, you know, physically and, and from a, from a, uh, sort of career standpoint as well, that's, that's, that's a huge injury to come back from at that age. 

It definitely made me think, I'm sure I've hit my head on the bottom of a pool when I've dived in before. 

You've made it, made it back to the hand of BOD, you've recovered well. Yeah, 

yeah, made it, made it. But he, um, he was in the 2002 World Cup squad for Brazil. Uh, so he was, he's a World Cup winner, but he only actually had one substitute appearance in the group stage, uh, during that World Cup, so obviously ahead of him at that time was Ronaldinho, Uh, so he was struggling to get in that team,  but in, um, August, 2003, when he was 21, he, uh, signed for AC Milan for 8 million then, which was, um,  quite a low figure, but Sao Paolo were really desperate for the money.

They were, they were really struggling. So they kind of offloaded him and Milan snapped him up and, um, He wasn't really, um, like a high profile signing for Milan. They'd like, obviously the Leonardo connection was there, but, uh, Ancelotti was the manager and Ancelotti apparently hadn't even watched him play before they signed him. 

Um, he was just kind of a bit of a bargain and they, they snapped him up. And so he went into this. Milan team, which included Rivaldo, Cafu, who we've spoken about, Seedorf, Pielo, Shevchenko, Rui Costa, Gattuso, Inzaghi, um, and, uh, managed just to get impressed in training straight away for Ancelotti and get straight in the team, uh, won the Scudetta in his first season. 

Uh, but he had this very kind of European style for South America. And he had a different look about it. It was very clean cut, like no tattoos, uh, clean shaven, kind of that wavy hair. And, uh, you, you, I'd probably compare it to like a Marco Van Basten style of play. Like you kind of glided, didn't he? Yeah, 

definitely.

Yeah. I think very, very, uh, Good passing game, didn knee, good ranger passing. Mm-Hmm. Let's score a lot of goals from distance, but yeah, like you say, could, could also glide pass players as well.  Yeah. Had that in his armory. 

He was, he was, he was tall and like rangey as well, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Andt. So he played in the 2005 Champions League final, uh, for Milan, the, um,  one against Liverpool, the Liverpool comeback, famous game.

Uh, but he created all three of Milan's goals. Uh, when they went 3 0 up and the, his assist for the third goal, which was for Crespo. So it was Pirlo to Kaká to Crespo and it was,  it is two, an incredible crowd pass from Pirlo and another incredible pass, uh, from Kaká, which is  spoken of being one of the best, the greatest ever through balls to set up Crespo for that goal.

So yeah, I'd, I'd recommend going back and having a look at that goal.  Yeah, man.  Obviously on the, on the losing team that year, but then in 2007, he kind of had redemption  to win the Champions League and he was like player of the tournament really in that, that season instrumental, he scored the winner against Celtic in the first knockout round.

Uh, which was another, which I think Kaka calls his, um, but he says personally, that's his greatest ever goal, the one against Celtic. And then he scored two goals in the second leg against, against us, against Man United in the semi final. And, uh, there was a, his second goal was one,  you might recall it. It was a long  kick out from the keeper from Deidre and he takes it  on his head  Darren Fletcher,  and then  as it kind of bounces he's got, um, I think it's Gabrielle Heintzer on him and then Patrice Evra comes storming in and they look like they're just about to clatter him, whether they take him or the ball or whatever, and he just kind of knocks it over.

Through them and drifts right and they both just run straight into each other  And so heinzer and ever end up just lying on the floor and then he just slots it past van der saar Uh incredible goal and yeah rated one of like the best ever champions league goals And yeah, he scored he scored a 

lot of goals.

Didn't he as well?  

Yeah. Yeah, he's good good goal scorer not kind of like  Kind of your number nine you kind of played in there took up the positions of a number not really a number 10 or Number nine, but took up more of the positions of a number 10  Um, so not kind of an out and out goal scorer, but he scored scored a decent amount But he he won the ballon d'or that year 2007 and it was uh, he was kind of streets ahead of uh, uh second and third place of, um, Mrs, um, Rinaldo and Messi.

And that was  the last year anyone else won it for, for the following 10 yeah, they've  

dominated the next decade, haven't they?  

Dominated after that. Yeah. 

That's amazing that they're second and third in, for that season. Yeah. 

Yeah. Incredible. But they, I saw a picture of. The three of them and they look so young.

It's incredible. Messi looks like he's like a competition winner or something.  Hilarious. But here's, um, he played against Messi in Messi's Argentina debut in a friendly.  

Right. Okay.  

At Highbury. And there's this clip I saw of him  running past Messi with the ball and just smoking him and Messi can't keep up with him.

I mean, he's got the ball. And this was like, this was this, like this era when he was just at the height of his powers. And, um, but he never really got to that peak powers again. That 2007 was kind of the peak.  

Can you tell me, Madrid was also successful?  

Yeah. Yeah. So 2009, he went to Madrid, 70 million euros.

Uh, and he had a really good first season, but that 2009,  that transfer window for Real Madrid, they signed Kaká, Benzema and Ronaldo.  Not a bad bit of business. 

That's, that's, that's, that's a pretty good three. And then if you, through your scouting network, you're getting those. 

Yeah. Yeah.  He had a great first season for Madrid and then, uh, struggled with a knee injury after that.

He was out for quite a while with a knee injury. Then when he came back, the whole team was kind of focused around Ronaldo. Uh, I think Mourinho was the manager at that point. And, uh, and he kind of struggled to get back. Into that team as the player he was because it was all kind of Ronaldo focus so  Um, he ended up going back to milan, uh in 2013 for one kind of final season  uh before he had A half season spell at sao paulo where it all began and then three finished it three seasons at all in orlando Before retiring in 2017  

worth worse places to finish up than orlando, isn't it? 

Yes, I think it was a lot of people retire in Orlando.  

Yeah, there was quite a lot of  that era of players kind of that was their last destination wasn't it America for a year or two.  

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's still, I mean it still is.  Yeah,  

it still will be as well. Some nice places to go. But 

yeah, incredible player,  incredible career.

I used to love, get really excited about seeing Kaka.  One of those players that  you kind of, if he was, there was a match and he was playing, you'd watch the match just for that player.  

Yeah, and still massively revered at all of his clubs, I would imagine. Like there was, we, we went to watch Milan Roma in January and, You know, you see there's a lot of images of him still around the ground in the Football Museum there, Hall of Fame there.

So it's, yeah, I would imagine it's the same at Sao Paulo and, uh, and Real Madrid as well. Because,  yeah, you think over a period of time, he was, uh, he was one of the best in the world, wasn't he? 

Yes. Yeah. Great career. Great player. Um, like I said, Brazil and Milan legend and, uh, and yeah, someone you've, uh, you, you played with an old teammate of yours. 

Yeah, i'm sure he's, i'm, i'm sure he tells that story to all of his mates as well.  About the time he finally decided with me. 

Yeah, that was a very unique, very unique saturday, uh, saturday morning that was. 

Now I did, I did try and do a quiz. Uh, we talking him when he was on his own and it was , it went . It did go very well because, uh, I think, I think it's better if there's more than one person. So, uh, I not, is it, is 

it a, is it a right back quiz, , or is it a goalkeeper quiz? 

I did a, I did a sponsor quiz.  Oh, 

outstanding.

Give me, give me, give me a couple of, give me, give me a question.  

Okay. Well, I'll just get, I'll just give you,  I tried to get him to go through every shirt in, uh, in a season. Every shirt sponsor. It was a bit long, long and drawn out.  Yeah. Yeah. I'll get you to name a couple. Uh, give, I mean he struggled with Everton's shirt sponsor in the 95 season. 

He didn't get it. 

95's got to be NEC isn't it?  No.  It's not.  Danker.  

Correct. Well done Richard.  Good knowledge that Dan, doesn't it? Good knowledge. But instead of, um,  Bear with me.  Instead of Chris, I was going to do a little recommendation. Now this is, um,  a kind of football nostalgia recommendation. And it's a magazine that I get, and it's called Mundial Magazine. 

And these are the last, uh,  previous two issues. The, the new one is actually out soon. It should be hitting my doorstep anytime, but it's, uh, it's such a good magazine. That was the most recent one. And we mentioned them, Ronaldo Rivaldo.  The cover photo, but it's, it's, it's amazing journalism. Uh, who's on the cover of 

the, uh, of the cult, the cult issue, the 

cult issues.

So,  uh, the wolf man, I don't actually can't remember. I think he was a, um, Bulgarian. I can't remember his name. Bulgarian defender played with Stoichkov. Was he a wolf man? I've forgotten. He's forgotten his name. Uh, is that Terat, Adel Terat? 

Yeah, that is.  Esprit. Yeah,  

the Ogre. Who's the bottom? Streete? Don't recognize the og.

No, I've seen the og.  That's RAM on Rael May, isn't it?  

Yeah, I think it is. Yeah.  And who's the Clogger  

know? 

The Clogger is,  I'll have to read it again.  . 

I have read it.  I've forgotten. That's a great 

show. It's, what's it called? 

Mundial. Mundial. Magazine, but yeah, it's so nostalgic and they've even I mean, they've got these even kind of smells nostalgic They've got these pink pages and they they smell like old magazines.

It's great. And uh, they've got they've got Brilliant podcast as well monday hour podcast, but um, yeah, thoroughly thoroughly recommend it Uh, really knowledgeable and a  great bunch of guys who make that  thanks very much for this evening It's been an absolute pleasure very much. Enjoyed talking. Uh, yeah Always good chatting Dan.

Talking tonight, um, and uh, next issue will be, next episode will be uh,  talking about centre backs  and  as I live googled because I've forgotten, um,  and George Weah. George  

Weah. 

George Weah.  

I'm there for that one. I'm there for that one. Definitely. Centre backs and George Weah. 

Centre backs and George Weah.

But yeah, Rich,  it's been a pleasure. Till next time.