The Steep Stuff Podcast
Anna Mae Flynn | Passion & Perseverance
Join us as we chat with the phenomenal Anna Mae Flynn, who shares her incredible journey from Boone, North Carolina to the pinnacle of trail running. From her victory at the 2017 Speedgoat 50K to her preparation for the upcoming Broken Arrow Skyrace, Anna Mae's story is one of passion, perseverance, and unyielding spirit. Her transition from the classroom to the trails is both inspiring and enlightening, offering a unique perspective on following one's true calling.
Anna Mae's holistic coaching philosophy with Mountain Endurance Coaching is a game-changer for any athlete. She unpacks the layers of a well-rounded training regimen that includes aerobic exercises, strength training, and mental coaching. Learn how she maintains peak performance through seasonality and team-based support, and get invaluable tips on managing performance anxiety through visualization techniques. Whether you're an ambitious trail runner or just starting out, Anna Mae’s insights into balancing training and avoiding burnout are essential listening.
Discover the intricate details of the 2024 trail running season and the technical challenges of VK (Vertical Kilometer) races. From overcoming a major hip surgery to mastering the art of altitude acclimation, Anna Mae’s journey is filled with lessons on resilience. Listen to her candid thoughts on racing strategies, injury recovery, and the sheer joy of running. This episode promises to leave you motivated, informed, and ready to tackle your next big race. Tune in and let Anna Mae Flynn's remarkable story inspire your own trail running adventure!
Anna Mae Flynn IG - @annamaeflynn
Mountain Endurance Team @mountainenduranceteam
www.mountainenduranceteam.com
Join us as we chat with the phenomenal Anna Mae Flynn, who shares her incredible journey from Boone, North Carolina to the pinnacle of trail running. From her victory at the 2017 Speedgoat 50K to her preparation for the upcoming Broken Arrow Skyrace, Anna Mae's story is one of passion, perseverance, and unyielding spirit. Her transition from the classroom to the trails is both inspiring and enlightening, offering a unique perspective on following one's true calling.
Anna Mae's holistic coaching philosophy with Mountain Endurance Coaching is a game-changer for any athlete. She unpacks the layers of a well-rounded training regimen that includes aerobic exercises, strength training, and mental coaching. Learn how she maintains peak performance through seasonality and team-based support, and get invaluable tips on managing performance anxiety through visualization techniques. Whether you're an ambitious trail runner or just starting out, Anna Mae’s insights into balancing training and avoiding burnout are essential listening.
Discover the intricate details of the 2024 trail running season and the technical challenges of VK (Vertical Kilometer) races. From overcoming a major hip surgery to mastering the art of altitude acclimation, Anna Mae’s journey is filled with lessons on resilience. Listen to her candid thoughts on racing strategies, injury recovery, and the sheer joy of running. This episode promises to leave you motivated, informed, and ready to tackle your next big race. Tune in and let Anna Mae Flynn's remarkable story inspire your own trail running adventure!
Anna Mae Flynn IG - @annamaeflynn
Mountain Endurance Team @mountainenduranceteam
www.mountainenduranceteam.com
Hey guys, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, james Lauriello, and today we've got once again a banger of an episode. One of the greatest trail runners of all time, anna Mae Flynn, joins us on the pod. She was kind enough to give us some of her time during Memorial Day weekend, so I was just so happy to be able to sit down with her and get to learn more about Anna Mae.
Speaker 1:We dive into all kinds of fun stuff. We about her 2023 season, which she absolutely dominated, um, especially coming back from, like, a pretty serious injury. Um. We also get into her 2024 season and what she has um in the pipeline for right now. We also talk about some crazy life changing events uh, like winning the 2017 speed goat. That kind of changed her life, um and just all kinds of really fun stuff. It was a great conversation. She's an incredibly aspiring athlete and an amazing coach as well. We talk about her coaching business. We dive pretty deep into that and kind of her coaching philosophy, which I think is a unique perspective that she brings as an athlete. So, guys, I hope you really enjoyed this one. Like I said, this is an absolute banger.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite episodes and conversations. Anna Mae is just an amazing athlete, but an even more incredible human. Again, I want to thank her personally. She was very kind enough to come on the pod and chat with us, and I do want to wish her the best of luck this upcoming week Actually, this is next upcoming week when this podcast drops. We have Broken Arrow weekend and she's going to be out there competing at the VK, so we want to cheer her on as she prepares, uh, for this incredible race. So, guys, without further ado, steep stuff. Podcast episode with Anna May Flynn. It's time. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We are live.
Speaker 1:Here we are. Did you get in and run yet today?
Speaker 2:Not yet. Not yet no.
Speaker 1:I just literally just got into town like an hour and a half ago, and the first thing I did was just like run up s mountain and your first time yeah, it's the first time I've actually ever I've been here. I have a couple buddies that live here, but like never, um, never ran up, like behind there, really anything like that.
Speaker 2:So it's cool, are you?
Speaker 1:and you're in the springs I'm in the springs, yeah, so we're live, by the way.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, yeah, I'll let you introduce yourself.
Speaker 1:Ladies and gentlemen, you have Anna Mae Flynn on the podcast. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I yeah, I'm a ultra runner. Trail ultra runner I think is kind of like what I am really known for, but yeah, I dabble in some sub ultra. I'm also a coach for mountain endurance coaching.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, and I used to be a teacher really yeah, so I was a teacher for most of my 20s and like, wasn't really a trail runner at that time, and then discovered trail running kind of later in life you could say like 27, 28, um and then was a professional runner for a while and then, um, right before 2020, like 2019, I decided to start a coaching business and I kind of took off.
Speaker 1:That's mountain endurance coaching. Yeah, super cool.
Speaker 2:Um, and then at that time is when I kind of transitioned out from education and just coaching full time.
Speaker 1:So super cool, wow. Well, thanks for coming on Super excited. I have so many things unpack and kind of jump into. Probably the first thing is I feel like you've been in the game a long time, very recognizable name. A lot of people know who you are. Why don't we unpack like where you're from and how you kind of got into running in the first place?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm from Boone, north Carolina, on the East Coast, in the Appalachian Mountains. I grew up in a really rural town and so, like I lived on 10 acres and, in the era of no internet, rarely watched TV, and my parents were like you need to just go out. If you have any extra energy, just go outside and play. So I would say I've been a runner most of my life, maybe not within the context of okay, now I'm going to track practice and now I'm going to cross country, but I just remember and recall running around in the hills when I was younger and then formally started running in middle school. There was like a Striders you know organization, they called it, and so I started formally running in middle school. But I also dabbled in other sports dance, soccer, basketball, everything. I had just a ton of energy.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, yeah. And so in high school I was like, you know, it wasn't cool to be a runner, so I kind of leaned into soccer and basketball, soccer and basketball. And then my junior year, my parents we were talking about college and they're like, you know, you're going to need to find a way to pick, like, either get an academic or a sports scholarship. We're not going to support you with, you know your education. And so at that point I really like buckled down and I had a couple of friends that were in track and cross country and they're like you should, you know, join the cross country team. It's really fun. And they kept pushing me and at the time I was playing soccer and my coach was like I had like a, I like initiated a meeting and was like hey, what do you think about my prospects of like being able to like play soccer in college? And then they kind of hit me with a we don't think you're good enough.
Speaker 1:It's pretty hard.
Speaker 2:And then. But then they were like you're a good runner, and so I got all this feedback that was like, hey, like cross country is fun, you're a good runner, you're really fast. You just don't quite have the skills to be, you know, an amazing soccer athlete. So I reluctantly joined the cross-country team my junior year and I actually was really bad at cross-country and you know I had more of like the fast twitch, you know kind of muscle fibers at the time and so I did like 400, I did track that spring and I did like 400, 800. I was pretty good at like the shorter distance and I like lifted heavy in the winters and it was kind of a whole thing. And then my senior year, so I was really kind of a late bloomer. I had another, an assistant coach, that was like you know, I think you would be good at the two-mile. I'm like what that's really far.
Speaker 1:That's so far.
Speaker 2:That's so far and so, but I really worked. He believed in me and I think that was like the catalyst was. He was like I think you could do this and I think my first two-mile run I ran like maybe like a 14-minute two-mile and then I like just kept PRing throughout the season and then by the end I had won regionals and got second in the state and then I was able to get a scholarship. That's incredible.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of wild After your junior year. Yeah, wow, yeah, wow Okay.
Speaker 2:So that kind of like had this realization that hey, I'm good at this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then two, I started to kind of like I was always kind of a trail runner and so a lot of our training was on trail. And I didn't really put all of this together until later in life when I was actually trail running, you know, when I I know in my 20s I didn't really run that much because I had a car injury when I was in college. That kind of took me out of running for a while, and but then when I moved to Tahoe, it was just because of, yeah, work and everything. I found myself in Lake Tahoe, um, in my my late twenties and I was just kind of running up peaks and hiking down and that was kind of I don't know.
Speaker 1:You put the put two and two together together and I was like, is this trail running?
Speaker 2:And then discovered the community there, the donner um party mountain runners um in tahoe, and they kind of took me under their wing and they're like, yeah, welcome to trail running. And I was like, oh, this is like a whole thing and so broken arrow is like homecoming for you. Yeah, yeah, broken yeah, broken arrow is like homecoming and and then like just western states and like. I learned a lot about trail running culture. You know really around western states because everybody was talking about like how many tickets they had like into western states or you know like talking about the lottery and yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of I don't know. In a nutshell, my background.
Speaker 1:Thank you for bringing it up, and it's juicy, there's a lot of good stuff there. So you ran the two-mile, you wound up getting a college scholarship. What was it like running at the collegiate level, like when you kind of transitioned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really interesting. There's a lot to unpack there and to reflect on. I had an amazing time in high school and I think it was just not. There was structure, but as an athlete I didn't really like know how things were structured. It was really playful and fun and, you know, there wasn't a lot about talk about times or paces, it was just all about effort and like you should go in this group or maybe you should be in this group and just kind of I don't know, just super playful and fun and social. And then college, it really kind of turned into a job and I could really feel that there was more pressure, that there was more pressure, Um, and whenever I would, you know, vocalize like hey, I'm tired, I not sure if I should be doing doubles, or it just wasn't really. I wasn't, it wasn't really received, the feedback wasn't received and like, just taking into um, taking into account like the whole athlete, wasn't really a thing, and so, yeah, I just struggled a lot.
Speaker 1:I hear that from so many people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like such a common thing that very few people and if you do succeed in that environment, I feel like you're just a shell of yourself. When you get out, it's really unfortunate the way a lot of people have to deal with that. Yeah, I feel like I had so much potential my freshman year. When you get out, you know it's really unfortunate the way a lot of people, people have to deal with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like I had so much potential my freshman year and it, just, it, just. There was no like individualized plan. It was just like hey, just run fast. Like and if you're running faster than we'll just throw you in with the guys, or oh, we'll just make you do more, and you know. And then, like people will get burned out or they get broken. I was like, okay, now you just go cross train, or you know, it's just yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:It's a tough, tough thing. One of the things that you hit on that I it was really interesting to me is you kind of mentioned um, taking everything into consideration. Um, one thing that blew me away in, like when I was doing a lot of research for this podcast, I did listen to a podcast you were on and you kind of went into some of your training this was maybe a few years ago and kind of what you do, balancing being in the weight room, running and then a lot of aerobic stuff on the bike. Do you still because you're kind of this I don't want to say hybrid, that might not be the right word, because you run ultras, but you're also really good on the sub ultra scene Do you still apply a lot of that for your training today?
Speaker 2:or I do, yeah, yeah, I've kind of adopted this like mountain endurance lifestyle kind of philosophy that you know, endurance work is endurance work, like aerobic is aerobic, and like, yeah, specificity is important, like if you're not running on the trails, you're not going to be good at running trails. But I think you know periodizing to a point where, like, okay, winter is coming in and you're living in the mountains, there's snow on the ground, like it doesn't make sense to force the running. And you know, just having friends that like live in Sweden and following some of their training, it just seems like, hey, this works. What if I ski for three months in order to keep that kind of adaptations and the stimulus of making sure that my bones are durable enough and that keeping my muscles and ligaments strong durable enough, and that like keeping my muscles and ligaments strong, like, hey, let me add some strength training during this season too, so that when I transition out of, you know, the winter season, I'm, I'm ready to, you know, hit the trails, um, or at least transition.
Speaker 2:And then, in the summer too, it's like, you know, focusing on really mountainous running. Like you know, focusing on really mountainous running, it's a lot about hours and not so much about miles, or it's more about vertical gain too, and so you can get pretty beat up when you're just like running up and down mountains. So it's like all right, this kind of concept of you know quality over quantity. You'd still need to have these kind of like a calm trash runs where you're just kind of like working things out and just you know just doing like a flat easy run and at chill pace.
Speaker 2:But um, it's like why not jump on the bike and get some easy hours that way?
Speaker 1:and recover so did you a lot of mountain biking or road biking Like what kind of biking?
Speaker 2:Yeah, road mountain bike a little bit of, yeah, like gravel.
Speaker 1:I was blown away Like this is the first, there's a lot of options here. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, when I was back here on the trails I was like, oh my gosh, the mountain biking trails are incredible back here. So, yeah, I just know really anywhere you live.
Speaker 2:But I feel like you know I have been living in the mountains my whole life and so you know, embracing the seasonality, I think, is just it's just a natural thing and it's fun, it helps with burnout and it helps you kind of really connect with your environment in a different modality. Cool.
Speaker 1:I definitely agree with that. I have a gravel bike. I'm out on the front range, Rick, in the spring, so we've got some spots, but it's not as yeah, it's not as maybe picturesque as it would be out here, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, at some point things will probably start to expand. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:So have you lived out here for a long time?
Speaker 2:Just a couple years, okay, yeah, and I feel like I started.
Speaker 1:So I have a couple, a bunch of friends that live out here and it's been about two years since I've known them and just from the time I've come out here the first time to now. I mean, granted it's Memorial Day weekend, but still it's. It's really busy out here now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's getting a little bit more touristy, but yeah Cool.
Speaker 1:Cool. So thank you for explaining some like a little bit of a breakdown of your training and stuff like that. And I kind of want to segue that in and plug your coaching business and just be able to talk about that and like what you do. Like I said, when I was listening to this podcast I was just so blown away. It made me feel like I was like, because I work with coaches and I guess they handle a lot of that, that planning, but it just made me like realize like I need to get a little bit more dialed with the way I do things. I was like, wow, so anyway, let's talk about your coaching business and kind of get into that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, well, it was mountain endurance coaching and then it's transitioned to mountain endurance team, because I really like this concept of you know it's it takes a team in order to accomplish our goals.
Speaker 2:And so I've also, you know, taken into account this kind of holistic coaching concept and you know, over the past four-ish years that I've been coaching, I've noticed that, like, just coaching the endurance piece like isn't quite enough, quite enough.
Speaker 2:You know, you need to have the strength piece, the nutrition, the, you know, the injury prevention, even having like an injury coach, even like the mental coaching aspect, like all of these components are essential in order to really be able to achieve your full potential in the sport is what I really believe. And so, um, especially if you're seeing this as, like this is my lifestyle, like sure, like soccer, basketball, you know, could be your lifestyle, but I think trail running is really unique and that, again, there's this connection with, like, the landscape and, um, and it there's like a certain culture to it, that it's like this is something I want to do forever, yeah, you know. So how do we do that? You know, while we're also trying to, you know, help these athletes and nurture them to like reach their peak and their pinnacle in the sport, but not get burnt out. And so, yeah, that's kind of like the main philosophy and focus.
Speaker 1:So I had Kieran on. His episode doesn't come out yet.
Speaker 1:I love Kieran, great guy, and he had nothing but amazing things to talk about because you're his coach, about the process and about the way things work and you know he's like he kind of explained like a little he didn't go in too much inside baseball but like kind of talked about how he like you know a little bit lesser mileage and was ramping it up and kind of explained kind of that psyche on how you are preparing him for this upcoming season. So it was just really interesting and yeah, I just love the different things that you apply. Like I said, there's, you know, not just your diet but you know because, like for me, when I got into this past year, I got like actually serious about like in the weight room and it completely changed the way I looked at everything.
Speaker 1:It was like wow, from a recovery perspective, and just strength on the uphill, strength on the strength on everything, and I just realized how important that component is. So, yeah, it's interesting to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like you know, I always look again at the whole athlete and then it's like, well, what is? What is their strengths, what are their weaknesses? Or I guess you don't need to label them weakness, but like where can I nurture this and improve? And you know, I think the first thing I see typically with athletes is like I asked them, like what is your history with strength training? And, and then it's like exciting kind of when they're like I have zero, you know history with strength training, and um, and then it's like exciting kind of when they're like I have zero, you know history with strength training. I'm like, okay, we need to get that started. You know, um, but you know, and I think I think a lot of athletes are reluctant to do that because it I feel like one, it's like maybe a body image thing like I'm going to bulk up or is this going to take away from my trail running?
Speaker 2:it's going to make me sore. I don't have the time, you know all these things, but it's like we can. We can talk about all of those reasons why that you are fearful, um, and we can, yeah yeah, we can kind of mitigate, we can kind of yeah, make that yeah.
Speaker 1:I was laughing because, because Kieran goes, because Kieran's skinny dude yeah you know. But he's like oh, yeah, he's like I'm you know. Sorry, I'm getting big now. I was like dude, that's a lot. Yeah, he's gained like a pound but exactly no, but I mean like that's like huge, you know like well, he's a tall dude to begin with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's like you know, and it's also like the density piece too, like you might not see. You know the like, the bulking, and that's kind of like what I usually tell athletes is like you're, not necessarily, I mean depending on your body type but, like, you're not necessarily going to like bulk with all the volume that you're doing. Yeah, it's going to be more about just the durability piece and and having more density.
Speaker 1:Yeah, could you go a little bit into um? I know you had mentioned the mental aspect and like. So for myself I I like at the at the end of last season I started talking to a um. It's like a sports psych for a little bit and it completely helped. It helped me understand a little bit better because I used to get I get really bad pre-race anxiety and just my relationship with competition was just not in a healthy place. And then you put that on top of that with like sponsorships and stuff like that and you kind of delve yourself forth into things like that. Um completely helped change the game for me. So maybe you could go a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I feel like we, I feel like all athletes can connect on that level, not just the professionals.
Speaker 2:And I've been seeing that a lot with with my athletes is that, yeah, there's this like pre-race anxiety and it starts to manifest like a couple of weeks out, and for some athletes that can be, you know, like longer, um, you know just around workouts, or you know long runs and like specific workouts, and so I I see that it can be helpful to to really start with like the workouts, you know, like having that kind of communication, that dialogue which I think is really important for um, for coaching too, and I think that, like there's some programs where they're not, the emphasis isn't on the communication, but I'm like super into the communication, um, and so I get that feedback and then I'm like, okay, like this athlete is dealing with some anxiety, performance anxiety, and so, yeah, it's just about like having those conversations and kind of working through talking, through visualization.
Speaker 2:I think, visually, visualization is like a really amazing tool where it's like, okay, let's, let's work through all the different scenarios that you're building up in your head for yourself, you know, I mean I literally there's been times where I'm like, oh my God, what if I just blow up and I end up?
Speaker 1:in like last place, yeah, and then I think about it. I'm like who cares?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and like also, what are you going to do in those instances?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, oh, how the sensation feels. Oh, now I'm recovering the. You know the leaders have got like gapped me but I'm going to keep going. You know, just like this whole kind of like working through the scenario and then we do a different scenario and a different scenario. And I've learned that through um reading Dina Castor's um, why like let my my mind run book and she talks about that as like just unlocking. You know, that performance piece.
Speaker 1:Ooh, I'm going to get that book. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, so those little, I mean those little things like I, and I think too as well. I think the more racing you do and this applies to younger athletes the more racing you do, the more experience you get, the better it is, because I remember last summer I've had it happen a few times where you could be leading the entire race.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then someone passes you in the last few miles and I'm just not catching you, yeah, and that's absolutely terrifying and like really stressful, but once it happens, it happens.
Speaker 2:You know it's like one of those things and how to just deal with that you know, yeah, and I think you know also acknowledging that we're all going through the same psychological kind of like internal battle, and I think that's helpful to know too. That you know, I talked to some people who are like mid pack or back of the pack and they're like, oh, having these anxieties. I'm like the person who's winning the race is having the same anxiety that you are.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you know a hundred percent. It's interesting, yeah, it's, it's. It's crazy how much um for such like a um like a hobbyish sport I shouldn't say hobby, but like a passion sport.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, for such a passion sport, how much emphasis people put on to performance Like I'm. Yeah, I get it, so yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think it's like again. Like I try and go back to like the lifestyle piece is like why are you doing this? Like this is, you know, races. We can kind of see races as a time to celebrate like all of the work that you put in. You also don't have to do anything, like if you are having crippling anxiety and we, you know, kind of like dissect that and you're like I don't think that I'm ready to do this, then let's pivot.
Speaker 2:Like it's not the end of the world, like you don't have to do anything, and I feel like so many athletes are like, well, I've been working towards this and I've been and I'm like I know, but that's why I was saying early on, and maybe when we shift to talking about what I'm doing, it's like I think that we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, because if you have sponsorships, it's like there's a lot of athletes who like roll out their calendar and like this is what I'm doing and it's there.
Speaker 2:I think there's so. There's. There's so much um, like up and downs in training, like whether it's like if you get sick for a week, like that can derail a large part of your block.
Speaker 2:And then it's like I don't think I'm ready to show up and you know, race this like championship race, like that's a lot of pressure you're putting on yourself. So it's like maybe I have like a plan B and I have a plan C and you know, and kind of have lots of different options and that might set you up for more success. And I find that I'm I operate better that way, where it's like I kind of want to have some secret races, where I'm just kind of like these are some options and then I might just show up on the day and I race better that way, Just so.
Speaker 1:Dude, I could not agree with you more. So I've been so public no, I shouldn't say super public, I just put it on Instagram. I'll put my schedule on. I put it out the last three years and first year I barely stuck to it. I changed everything around. Second year, barely stuck to it. I mean I did some of the things but like probably cut it in half, so maybe did 50% and this I don't know why. Yeah, it's bizarre. So yeah, I totally agree with your. Method is maybe put out like one or two things and then show up to, like you know, show up to a bunch more when the time is right, when you're fit and you feel mentally like you could do it.
Speaker 2:So let's pivot to you yeah.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about so many things we could get into. Let's first jump into your 2024 season. We don't have to give away too much. Um, I definitely want to talk about you're on the start list for broken arrow yeah I'm so excited. I mean, everybody is going to be at this, literally everyone, okay, even wamsley, like what the hell? Um, yeah, let's talk about that and your excitement for this season and kind of where you're at right now sure, yeah, I'm kind of well, yeah, I'm a lot.
Speaker 2:So in 2023, I mainly did a bunch of like flat running, which is not like me to be doing that. But yeah, I just um had a major hip surgery in 2022 and it just felt right for me to like focus on my form and, um, I think I had a little bit of fear and anxiety with running downhill, with just like all of that extra like stress and you know, just like with the downhill running and the technicality and that kind of thing. So I've just now started to like work on my vert and that is my wheelhouse, like I would say that's, you know, a depth a you know a skill of mine, um, and so I'm having a lot of fun and but I'm also noticing that I have a long ways to go in order to be like where I want to be, um which is wild because, like you, absolutely dismantled the field last year at Cirque Series A Basin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was pretty. I was. I was a little shocked with that, but I think again, I think it's also like I'm acclimated to altitude and so even if people are living in Denver, boulder or whatever or Flagstaff, I think I'm able to get up a little bit higher. You know, I spent a little bit of time at 14,000 feet and was just kind of doing more intervals at Mount Sherman for a couple of weeks leading up to that race. And when I say intervals it's more like 10 minute pace but felt like an interval. But you know when you're at a base and you know 10 minute pace is like pretty gold, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So um, yeah, so um sorry, I totally did.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, so, yeah so it's just like I'm excited about the VK but I have reservations because, yeah, I just don't feel like like I I know that I'm I need a little bit more time to be prepared for like a VK effort and getting, you know, a 3000 foot climb under me. Like I'm probably good for like a thousand right now all out, but like 3000 is different, plus with the snow. So it's just kind of one of those I don't know one of those races where it's like in my head a little bit yeah, yeah, well, you've had.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you take anything from I don't know, I'm one of those believers that if you achieve very well and then different people are very different, right, I feel like if you achieve very high at a race, it's either going to go one of two ways. Coming back to it, it's either that you've unlocked this new, this new level where you can come back and just do it again, or other people feel pressure to come back and repeat and you've had phenomenal like was it 2022 or 2023? You got fifth place at the VK. Is it 22,? I think 23.
Speaker 2:Last year I got that was my first race back from my hip surgery- and. I was just like I'm going to go do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I got fifth, which felt great Awesome. Yeah, yeah, and then in the past I think I've gotten like second and I think second twice or maybe second and third, but yeah so yeah, we're excited for it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but another thing that's pretty wild about that race that I noticed last year was people were incorporating like poles, yeah, and it was so sloppy because it's a little later and they had. They did a great job like putting steps and everything but um, and I had good traction on my shoes. But I'm wondering if it would be beneficial to have like even micro spikes or you know some kind of like.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So almost like I wonder, cause like sportiva makes those little just having something, just a little bit to just kind of catch yourself. So I didn't race the VK. I was out there last year, though, and I did the course a couple of days ahead of time, just to see what, even though we weren't supposed to.
Speaker 1:But and I was amazed, it was like dude, how, first of all, like if you do it early in the morning, it was like ice, so you're not getting up there anyway. But if you did at the time, you guys did it around 11, 12 or 10 or however. Once the sun hits it, I was like there's no, there's no traction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everyone was slipping. I mean it got to the. I was on all fours like early on, like the first slope. I was like I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't stand up and I was going like as hard I was felt like I was on a hamster wheel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like I can't.
Speaker 2:And then, like I think I was with Amanda Basham and she had poles and she was just like just going up, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm wondering, I don't know, just something to think about something to practice.
Speaker 2:Something to practice, yeah, but yeah, I mean, I think VKers are like a special breed where you kind of like it's, I think, akin to like bouldering, where it's like kind of project and you're like, okay, like how do I go out in the beginning and then like the middle, the end, like there's definitely like a lot of, yeah, different ways to like attack a DK and like if you can get out of the gates fast, then I think you have an advantage, like if you can recover and go out hard. But I feel like that's so hard to accomplish and so usually it's the opposite, where it's like, okay, you need to like not gas yourself in the very beginning, especially like everyone's hyped up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's this mass wave start Mass wave start and it's pretty techie too, so you can like really like just overdo it and go to an anaerobic in the beginning.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you're passing people, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but I think that's the key is just to try and do more like short burst intervals mixed in with like some longer sustained tempo, so that you can hopefully be okay.
Speaker 1:That's really because you unpacked that just a tiny bit. And the reason I ask, like because you are so good at the VK and that's like your, it seems like one of your very good distances. How do you, how would you approach that? Like especially and you don't have to give away too much inside baseball, but like so, for instance, with these mass starts, and are you trying to get get away from people? Like just to, especially, like when in the female field, are you looking for, are you kind of like looking for other females, or like how does, how does that work?
Speaker 2:I honestly it feels like you're on your own.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Like it kind of like an ultra. Vks are similar in that mindset where you have to run your own race. Like if you try and stay with somebody then you blow yourself up.
Speaker 1:Okay, um, I'm running the rut this year. That's why I'm just a little curious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it's just like, if you feel confident, don't you just need to know, I think, if you're the kind of person who can go out fast or not? And recover, and I think that people who can go out fast and recover are usually the ones that end up doing really well.
Speaker 1:That's interesting.
Speaker 2:But if, like last year, I wasn't as fit for uphill so I went out easier and then just kind of built. I think I was in like 10th or 12th place.
Speaker 1:Just started picking people up. Yeah, it's fair. It's so interesting because we have the incline out in Manitou and I do the incline a lot and people think like, oh yeah, you can sustain the same effort, pace the whole way up, or yada, yada, yada. I'm like no, no, no, there's a complete and total like pacing science to this and people don't really get that and I feel like you could almost apply even though it's about 60% of the distance, you can almost apply, or the vertical, you can almost apply that in a lot of ways to a VK.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, I mean it would be fun to be able to race somebody in a VK. I think ideally it would be. That would be super fun to be like I'm going to try and stick, stay on this person. You super fun to be like I'm going to try and stick, stay on this person.
Speaker 1:But, um, you really have to be super fit, for sure, for sure. Yeah, very cool, so definitely want to wish you tons of luck. Um, let's unpack a little bit more of your 2024 season. You don't really have to give anything away. I don't know if any any races you've made public already. Um, we could talk about what else you're going to be at, or?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to share, um, yeah, I'm I'm kind of in my exploration kind of chapter, so I would love to do more sub ultras. I would love to go do the golden trail series. Um, unfortunately I don't have the travel budget to go, but you know, like Zagama is happening, I would love to do Zagama. I would love to do Sears and all. Um, I feel like those would be my bread and butter courses, um, but it just, yeah, I haven't been able to make it out there. Um, I might do Pike's Ascent.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of like I don't know a good gauge for me to to see kind of where my uphill fitness is. Um, I did it once before but haven't returned, but I've always kind of got sidetracked and got sucked into ultras, um. But yeah, next up um is the VK, maybe the USA TF champs race, um signed up for it, um. And then I've got the Ludville marathon that's coming up um, which I've kind of wanted to do more like local-ish races recently, just because I don't know, just taking out the anxiety piece and like just being able to sleep in my own bed, yeah, yeah, it's nice, right, it's nice, it's so great, so um, and then I may want to run level 100 one day, so that's kind of like super cool yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, and then long-term, I'm hoping to really build towards getting them back into Western States. So I kind of have a couple of golden ticket races just in mind, um, loosely have committed a couple of them. So, um, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love how you do both and you're so good at both, so it's just really interesting. You know, you meet a lot of athletes that are could be really good on the sub ultra side but just like, really struggle with the nutrition aspect of it on the ultra side and just can't put it together. So it's very interesting to talk to someone that's been able to put it together on so many different types of race fields.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think, like if you want to be somebody who can dabble in both, I would say my advice is, yeah, the quality over quantity. But don't pigeon your whole self into like, oh, okay, I need to go hard every time I run, but it's more like, okay, maybe I decrease my run volume, do like the extra hours cross-training, and then fitness is fitness, like if you can be as dynamic as possible as an athlete, like I like to say, like you know, if you're an ultra runner, sometimes you can just fall into that like plotting kind of ultra runner, shuffle kind of I don't know stride, but it's like if you can really be poppy and dynamic and like be able to do box jumps and like hurdle drills and do track workouts, like do the things that make you feel athletic and springy and powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, completely changes, and I think it changes the mindset too, and the way you approach these races. That's interesting. Do you have and you can get into? You can unpack as much of this as you would like. I know some people don't really like to talk about injuries and some people are like really open about it. I know you suffered and dealt with a pretty bad hip injury. Do you think you can open up a little bit and talk about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think my hip injury stemmed from my car accident, um, and in that car accident I suffered a lot of other major injuries, like so the hip wasn't really something that was diagnosed at the time, um, and I just remember there being like a dull pain sensation my hip, but then, like I took a lot of time off and I think all those nerve endings, just I don't know everything just kind of wasn't painful. But what I did notice when I was running a bit in my twenties was that running flat was uncomfortable, um, and so I head to the mountains or head to the hills and I would do a lot of running uphill, cause that angle seemed to feel better on my hip, and then I would walk back down. And then when I kind of really got into trail running when I was in Tahoe, I had a lot of anxiety around it, and so I've always been a low mileage runner and I've always run vert runner, um, and I've always run vert, um. And then, yeah, I I feel like I was just able to maybe get away with a lot, um, you know, for the first five ish, seven years of my trail running career, um, but my seasons were really short. So I was able to get fit in the winter mainly because I was cross training a lot and running a little bit, um, and then, you know, it'd have like a breakthrough performance in the spring, like maybe a couple.
Speaker 2:I maybe did like three races a year, but it never could race in the summer, Never raced really so much in the fall, um, and that kind of cycle pattern happened year after year and that was really frustrating. But I couldn't quite pinpoint like what was going on, because I didn't feel any pain in my hip, but it was more so that my right leg would atrophy. So if I would run more volume, or if I'm running more races, then, like the leg itself would just like lose power and lose steam. And then I would have to take a break, a long break, to kind of like build back up. And so in 2019, I had a really breakout season, did really great and then was like I'm just going to keep running, like I'm tired of this. I'm doing everything I can, I'm doing the strength training, I'm doing the mobility, I'm doing everything Like I just got to go.
Speaker 2:And then it just got to the point where, like I was feeling like I was experiencing tendonitis in my knee, experiencing tendonitis in my quad Achilles, I mean, it was just like all over, like all these hot spots. So I went to Stedman Clinic in Vail and got an MRI and got it on my knee initially and they're like we don't see anything. And I was like what the heck? So I got an MRI on my hip and they're like, yeah, you see a labrum tear there, but if you're not symptomatic, like we don't recommend a surgery. So I'm like, oh man, it's kind of frustrating.
Speaker 2:I was hoping they would say you need to go to surgery. So I waited and I did, I mean, literally everything I possibly could. So so many specialists and they diagnosed me with, like, leg discrepancy, and then another doctor was like no, and then it's your foot, and then all these different things. And then at some point I was like I got to listen to my gut and so I went back to Steppen Clinic and I went to see a different surgeon because I was seeing Leslie Vidal and I was like, you know, I kind of want to go like the female route, female empowerment, yay, you know that whole thing.
Speaker 2:But then I went and saw Philippon for a second eval and uh, 20, was it 2020, spring of 2022. And, uh, his team was like, yeah, you need to get a surgery, like you might even have, you know, cartilage damage, um, yeah, so. And then I really, really liked their, um, their PT on staff, mark Ryan. He's a runner, so he has also had a surgery. I think that was a catalyst. I was like I needed to hear from somebody that was a runner, that was in that profession.
Speaker 2:That was like this changed this. For me and for him, it was loss of power and the atrophy, and so I was like, okay, sign me up, but I still kind of delight, because it was just one of those things where I was like, okay, sign me up, but I still like kind of delayed, because it was just one of those things where I was like I didn't want to give up and I was like I've been hearing from so many people that have also had labrum tears that were able to PT their way out, and you know all this, and so, anyways, long story short, ended up getting the surgery and right away, like one week after the surgery, right away, like one week after the surgery, I was like this is gonna change everything, like I can tell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I had three um loose, ossified bodies in my hip capsule, which probably happened during the accident, which was what was causing me inflammation, which was probably not allowing my body to relax, to have like proper form there, and so it was causing an anterior tilt and like just having that loose, loose joint. So they took out those pieces of bone in the capsule and then luckily had no cartilage damage and so, and then I had the tear in the labrum. So they fixed that and then I had an impingement, which usually happens when there's dysfunction in the hip, and then it's just like the bone is, you know, like if it's rubbing it'll calcify, and so they shaved that down and then in 20, last year like I rehabbed for like three months and then did like my return to sport. I think I started running last year in March and it was the most consistent I've ever run in my entire like since the accident.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Like flat running, which I've never been able to do. So that was kind of like a mental unlock for me. I was like if I can sustain flat running track like all the things that I've never really been able to do consistently like this is success that's level up, level up, yeah like I could strength train, I could run.
Speaker 2:I mean I wasn't running a ton of miles, but I could sustain like 50 mile weeks every week for an entire from like april to december, and then was able to build up from there. So, um, and now I'm kind of like phasing in, like I said the vert to be like okay, now I'm trying to just be smarter in general, like I'm not going to throw everything at it, like I haven't won, I haven't run a full year and like ever. So it's like okay, well, let me do that first and pick races, that kind of like support that, and then next year I can like maybe bump it up a little bit. And you know, experiment and see how.
Speaker 2:I feel on more like vertical terrain and longer distances, or yeah.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, and it's just amazing for you to come on the other side of it like and feel better almost immediately.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. It was well. For me it was really like the glute connection, like I learned, like it was always like in the gym like, okay, I need to do SL or um single leg deadlifts and I need to really like, really engage my glute and focus. But I could just I could never do it. I could never hold onto that um engagement and that connection. And now, like when I run, especially running flat, I feel like I go back to the flat running or go back to the track to kind of wake up that connection, cause I feel like it's harder to do on the uphill, it's harder to do on the downhill. So I'll like go back, make sure that everything's kind of connected and then I'm like, oh, we're good to go. Okay, like getting that feedback that I need, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, congrats to you for like being able to over. It's like some people have injuries like that and whether it's a mental switch or they just sometimes people just don't come back. So it's incredible, like for you to have this and then come out of it and like obviously something's working because, like I said, since then, your 2023 season was awesome and you're poised for a great 2024 season. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, yeah, super cool.
Speaker 2:I think I have like a I don't know like a I guess it's a warrior mindset, but it's just like won't stop, like it doesn't matter what the obstacle is. I'm like I'm going to find a way and I think, um, yeah, I'm going to get a little emotional. I'm really proud of myself for, like, not giving up on myself.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah.
Speaker 2:And then not like. There was times where it was like I'm might never race again. And like I'm actually okay with that.
Speaker 1:Well as a professional runner.
Speaker 2:I'm actually okay with that, really. Yeah, I was really okay. Like when I went into the surgery, I had I kind of like ghost it, like I was just like off the socials, off. I was off everything. And I was like how do I, what do I want out of this? Like cause I know that it's going to be hard, no matter what, and it could end up being that nothing changes, or it could be worse, and so I was like I just want to be able to run on flat ground 20 minutes a day, like 10-minute pace. I don't care, like I really don't, I just want to be able to have my lifestyle back, and if that ends up being that I'm able to race and race at the level that I want to race, great, and if I do race again, I want to race at that level.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's an amazing mindset, wow Cause I don't know if I'd feel the same way. I would have been like, I mean, even if I had like the smallest thing, I'm like terrified, like am I going to lose this? You know, and that's a very difficult like like that's amazing of you to have that mindset and be comfortable.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Well, I think the alternative was like I had just tried.
Speaker 1:So I did everything and it was like this isn't, this isn't working, yeah. So yeah, you're kind of at your ropes. End with that. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, let me ask you a question on competition.
Speaker 2:What is? What is your relationship with it? Like, like, are you a super competitive person? Or I am and I'm not. I would say I'm competitive with myself, but it's more for me it's I love the training more than I love the racing. And I love racing when I know that I'm going to be at my best and and then when I'm racing it's like I'm just having so much fun because I'm like I'm fit, I'm skilled, I have all the skills to be able to match this course. I've been really, like you know, projecting that, like in training, and so like I get a lot of enjoyment with improving, seeing those little improvements over time, and then like having that you know.
Speaker 1:Put it all together.
Speaker 2:Putting that all together and then yeah, and then I feel really good about myself, whereas like, if I am just doing a training effort and it's a race, like I don't feel as great about it and it's just it's just a training run and I feel like 2023 was a lot like that. Like may not have come across that way, but that's what it was for me, and I wasn't sure if I wanted to race, because it was like, oh, this is not, like I'm not fit, I'm not at my highest maximum potential, like what I would normally do.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So I felt really vulnerable. To just like go to these start lines and be like I had a lot of anxiety and I think that's also another way to lessen your anxiety is like I feel like when you put pressure on yourself to be like here I'm rolling out my schedule but I'm I don't know if I'm even like, if I'm going to be ready to do all these Right so.
Speaker 2:I think it takes a lot of like building up to these big a races to be like actually I have no anxiety, I have no pressure, I feel great, I'm ready to do this, I'm excited to do this, and that's how I love to race. So, yeah, that's why I have everything kind of like. There's so many different.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a question and you don't have to, you could choose not to answer this. I'm just very curious because, like you, are one of the more high profile professional athletes I've ever interviewed, when so, for instance, like 2023 is probably the best example so you kind of showed up to a few two race, a few races, had stellar performances. Is there, when you get there, there, do you feel any pressure because your name is on that list and people are going to be watching and see what you do, because you are a high profile athlete, does that? Do you feel any pressure there?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Yeah, I think it's again like going back to like I don't have to do anything. I don't think that anyone like yeah, if you're under sponsorship, there's this requirement that you need to race, but I think if you're not feeling it and you don't want to, then don't, and then you can make that up somewhere else down the line Right. So it's like, why show up and do something that you're feeling in your gut that you're not quite ready for?
Speaker 1:You feel like someone wants you to do yeah, yeah, yep.
Speaker 2:So it's like, don't do it and then like, yeah, you might feel let down or people are like, why didn't she race, or whatever it is, but it's like that's all external, like you're making this up and so then just pivot and then focus on another race that you're like I'm really into this, I really want to do this and I think I'm going to be like ready for it.
Speaker 1:It sounds to be stoked. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think that's the best way to approach it and that's that's. I was just very curious because you know, I feel like a lot of these cause like for me. I'm still very nascent and young in the sport. If I show up on a start list, yay or nay, it doesn't matter. You know people aren't looking for my name but for other people, like people. It could be Sage, could be Adam Peter.
Speaker 2:Who the hell knows, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:People are expecting to see, like, what they're going to do. So that's why?
Speaker 2:I was just very curious.
Speaker 1:Another quick question when you so you won Speed Goat in 2017 and 2019, right?
Speaker 2:How much did that change your life? 2017 was a big catalyst for me. Yeah, I mean, I went from I was a Solomon contract and that was the race that put me into, you know a pretty comprehensive, really great contract with Hoka Um and yeah, it definitely changed my trajectory that. And then, like winning like Sonoma, where the two that was like yeah, it definitely changed my trajectory that, and then like winning like Sonoma were the two that was like okay, like I've won, did really well at Speed Go. I had the like you know course record for that course, which was huge, just because there's so many names on that list of people who've done it, Iconic yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then, like Sonoma was a really deep field, so it just kind of felt like I mean, I basically like sprinted to the finish. So, um, yeah, those were the two where I was like okay, like I no longer feel like I need to prove myself and I can really lean into being a professional athlete. And um, and at that time too, I just kind of felt like all, not just the you know, winning those races and getting to that level, really it was just like accumulation of the skills that I had like perfected over that time, which a lot of that, for me, was like running downhill, which was something that I didn't really practice that much because I had this, you know, the hip issue, and just feeling like, yeah, like I needed to pick and choose when, I really ran downhill and so Spigo was a big one where I was like I'm going to just like let go, like really try and run fast on the downhills.
Speaker 1:That's such a hard race. I've never run it personally. I just know the course profile. I've looked into it a few times to go so hard? This is so mind-boggling to me how fast you can run that course.
Speaker 2:Well it's also the high altitude. That's the thing. I think there's only a certain amount of people who can feel ready and prepared Like I, don't feel like it's affecting.
Speaker 1:It doesn't stress you, it doesn't stress me, so you know. Quick question on, like your training for high altitude, because, like we're here, salida Poncha area, somewhere between 7,000, 8,000 feet, like 7,000 range, if you're preparing for a race, let's say, let's say like Cirque series, a basin right, how far out or even in your like, do you structure things into some of your training runs where not some, but like far out, where you are getting high up pretty often to just kind of maintain and keep that altitude adaptation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say, as soon as I can get up high, I try and factor that in, you know, as much as possible. Um, but with that said, like if you're getting up to summits, like that's a lot more strain on the body to be doing that vert. So, um, luckily, here we have the monarch crest trail. Here we have the monarch crest trail, which is at like 10 000 feet and then goes up to like almost 12 um and it's flat, so it's like a good recovery run. So you're still getting that acclimatization, um. So I usually go up there like five times a week oh, wow, that's smart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So it's just like that's my book, my book, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, in terms of you know the specificity I usually go to, I mean, when I was younger I, you know, would chase, you know Strava or crowns or be like I'm going to go do like this epic link up and do like multiple 14ers and, you know, get 20,000 feet of vert, you know. And it's like I'm just feel like I'm smarter now to where it's like I don't need to do that in order to reach my goals and I can just be more strategic on like what peaks I do and when I do them and then have a really good quality effort. And so I usually go to Mount Sherman for that, because I can go through Fair Play and like park pretty high, so I can get up to 12,000 feet and so I can just hang out from 12 to 14 and yeah, have a long day.
Speaker 2:have a long day, but not getting a ton of you know vertical not a ton of vertical feet, but it's like less about I got 5,000 feet gain in one effort going up Pike's Ascent or Pike's Peak. It's like I can just hang out here. Nobody really knows what I'm doing, but yeah, just getting it done.
Speaker 1:I'm just hang out here, nobody really knows what I'm doing, but yeah, just getting it done. I'm just getting it done. That's fair. Yeah, fair, all right, so your answer.
Speaker 2:Little things I like to take and apply.
Speaker 1:I'm always especially when I talk to like people at a very high levels. I'm just always curious to see, like if I can find little nuggets of wisdom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, matt Carpenter used to do that. You know he would go up and do like a ladder and just go up to the type of type of peaks and just like focus at that, you know, 13 to 14 000 feet and it's like if you want to be good at altitude, go to the highest point and hang out there like why would you do that whole, you know, from bottom to top and back down every time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. His 3-2-1 is like the patented move that everybody Like. When I had Brian Whitfield on, that's what he. I mean he just did the ascent last year, actually the past two years, and one of the things that he said was everybody tells me the 3-2-1 is like the patented move that everybody does. So, that's super cool. Sherman's a smarter place to do it. I feel like Pikes. It's kind of great that you can drive to the top, but it's just, you know, it's a long day just to get up there and spend that time there.
Speaker 1:It is it is, yeah Cool though. Yeah it is, it is cool yeah.
Speaker 2:But I think like if people are like route but it would probably take five hours just to drive up there, do a little workout the top and come all the way back down yeah, something like sherman, I feel like, is like, plus there's less people, I feel like on that backside, no one's bothering you, no one's bothering you, yeah, yeah, and you get a little bit of the technical bit like there's like yeah, I don't know, it's a much rockier again, like being kind of that boulder mindset it's like okay, I, I don't know, it's a much rockier amount.
Speaker 2:Like again, like being kind of that bolder mindset. It's like, okay, I can work on the technical piece here, I can work on the like more runnable piece here and like there's just lots of different options.
Speaker 1:See, that's like that. That's the part of the game that I just like love the most is like you could be good at, really good at, one thing, but you could absolutely suck at his other part, and like I don't think people get that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I was talking to Joe Gray about that actually, because it's like pikes is super runnable.
Speaker 1:Oh, a hundred percent, yeah, yeah, run the entire thing for the most part, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you have, like I'm trying to think of a technical, I mean like Cirque series. Like you, you know, you have some of those courses where it's like you get to the top and you're on a freaking scree field.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:You got to know how to maneuver maneuver that Um, and so you could be really really great altitude and really good you know ascender, but then when it comes to technical terrain, you're just like Bambi.
Speaker 1:Yep, if you can't, well, if you can't pick a line and you're just a deer in the headlights, you're going to get past it. It's funny, I'm so. I'm racing the day you're doing Laudeville marathon. I have a Cirque Brighton and it's got this like gnarly boulder field. That's like part of the first thing. I've like one of the things.
Speaker 2:That's the one I was kind of thinking yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was like people.
Speaker 2:I was like they don't know.
Speaker 1:You're going to be able to pass so many people on this if you're good at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hit that boulder field, and then you're kind of, and then it's.
Speaker 1:It could be snowy the year.
Speaker 2:I did it. It was like snow, so you can't even see all of the rocks underneath you.
Speaker 1:I'm so psyched for it. I love those technical races.
Speaker 2:I know I've actually. That's another one that I'm like if I last minute decide not to do Leadville, then I might just go do that.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I'd love to see you there. It'd be super fun. Yeah, yeah, I'm doing the whole series this year. Oh cool, except for I'm just not going to Snowbird.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to Alyeska. I'm not going to Snowbird. You are going to Alyeska? No, oh, you're not.
Speaker 1:So I'm getting married around that weekend. So I can't go to Snowbird it was a big no, no. Yeah and yeah I this year.
Speaker 2:so I'll be at all of them, except for those two I'll probably see you then around, because I'm planning on going to a lot of them too.
Speaker 1:Super fun alta I, I think I think the alta course is probably looks like my favorite right now. Um, just because I don't know, I do a lot of stuff that's pretty similar. You go to the top of baldy and you drop. It's just a faster it's a fast yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that he adds in verse like versatile, kind of like if you're more of a runnable uphill person or mountain person versus like you wanted to like try out some of the technical stuff yeah, you know, I'm not gonna lie, it is.
Speaker 1:It is like I love like sub ultra stuff, but like I really love like, because it's almost like it's like its own little thing in a lot of ways. So I don't know, it's like its own little subculture.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so it's very euro, though you know it's like this. I feel like when I've I've done a little bit of the sky racing in europe and, um, I mean it's a short rate, like cirque series, a short race. But when you, when you go to europe and you do these sky race ultras, it's like cirque series on steroids, where you're doing that for like a 50k.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just up and down so cool. Did you follow at all the Sky Race Day, math C, the one that just happened a couple weeks ago?
Speaker 2:I didn't, but I saw like Bailey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she had a great result.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she crushed it and I saw there was one in Mexico. I feel like I didn't. Yeah, I know that there's always like some sort of Sky Race series going on, but it's interesting how, like, some years it's like not so much on the radar and the other years it's like super competitive and so kind of like.
Speaker 1:I feel like this year it seems like they're it's much more streamlined, if you will, and like it seems like now they're really trying to compete with, like Golden Trail. So you see athletes now going back and forth and like doing both and I think it's really fun. I think it's good for the sport, because I feel like if golden trail, I feel like it just has like this monopoly on it that everybody's just gonna go do that and nobody's gonna do sky right now that we can you know, I had, uh, jackson cole on.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you know him. Um, it's a sportive athlete and I. Just one of the things I thought was really interesting is he kind of broke down the difference between like a lot of the Golden Trail Series races versus like Sky and just like how much more technical sky running is and stuff like that. So you know, cool for the audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's really. Yeah, it's really like I would say there's a lot more hiking going on.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Like that I would say it was the biggest difference. When I first, when I did my first Sky Race, I wasn't ready for that and it was like, oh, like I can't run everything, like I need to practice being efficient hiking, yeah, um. And then I applied that in ultras and more runnable ultras and it really paid off because I became like a really efficient hiker. Um, and then I just noticed, like some of my competitors, like I would get behind them and I would see them running and I would match like their effort, but I would hike and I could like feel myself like relaxing and then just waiting for a move to where, like can I go to this next steep area? And then I'm going to pass and push because I know they're already exerting themselves on these hills. So I'm getting an idea of like yeah, kind of where they're at.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, I agree so much and the thing like I think like power hiking and being a really good hiker is the best superpower in the sport, it is. That's underrated. It's so underrated yeah.
Speaker 2:You can. Oh, I have this story, so it was one of the last ultras that Ellie Greenwood did she. It was one of the last ultras that Ellie Greenwood did she did the TNF 50.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great race.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I got to meet her there. I was like Solomon Young Gun or whatever, not sponsored, just getting apparel and things, and I was invited to the Solomon house and I was like oh so giddy because I got to hang out with Ellie and Max was there, and so I remember it was like Ellie and Anne-Marie I can't say her name Anne-Marie Madden.
Speaker 2:Yeah she Madden yeah, she and Ellie were roommates and they were like prepping all their stuff for Ultra and it was going to be my first 50 um over 50k and I was so nervous and so I was just like watching them and seeing them prep and I was like asking some questions electrolytes, what was that, you know um? And so they kind of took me under their wing and ellie was like you know, she's a veteran, so she's just like already has her backpack and she's like whatever, what do you need, kid? Um? But then when we lined up at the race, I was like kind of like in the second row or third row, kind of like keeping my eyes on her to see what she does and how she races, and I knew I wouldn't be able to stay with her.
Speaker 2:But, um, we started, we took off and I'm used to 50 K, so I'm kind of used to going all out. So I noticed that like a lot of the top females were ahead of her and like they were gone and she was like hiking, because it starts off and it goes up a little trail and she was just kind of hiking, running, hike, run. And then when we really got into the headlands there was some steeper climbs and she was just hiking them all.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I just stayed behind her and I'm just kind of taking it all in. I ended up DNFing at some point during the race, but she ended up winning the race, holy shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that was like a big eye opener for me just to have that experience. And that hiking was not discussed in, you know, in this, in the coaching scene, really at all, and there are a couple coaches out there who I had interactions with that were like anti hiking, like you should run everything and I'm like I don't know about that Like especially if I've seen, I've witnessed. I've witnessed the best in the world, who is more of like a runnable, like fast runner hiking on a runnable course you know.
Speaker 1:So anyways, no, I listen. I couldn't agree more and like I just it's funny you can draw so many parallels. This like even one thing I just did you watch the Wamsley documentary.
Speaker 2:Yet I have not.
Speaker 1:No, it's actually pretty good and like one of the things like Jim really talked about was like dude, I just learned how to get really good at hiking and it changed the entire game for me. I can definitely say for myself like this year I leaned more into just spending more time on on a lot of different peaks and, like I'd say, the incline, at least three times a week and it even changed like my uphill running, my uphill running actually improved by doing the steeper stuff. I don't know if that gels out at all.
Speaker 2:No, a hundred percent, I think, when I first started running and I think another reason why I am really good uphill is because of my hip stuff, cause it forced me to just do uphill stuff. But I had a friend in Tahoe his name is JP Donovan and we were best friends and he did all the steep things and introduced me to VKs and we should go do these. And I was like what? So it was kind of like a new thing in the US at the time and he was like how we train for this is you just find the steepest possible thing and you just don't hike at all and try and run at all. So we were just like gassed, like upper end threshold, you know, like get to the top of the summit and then like that's all you had, you know. But we would do that, you know, a couple times a week, times a week. And so then he's like the theory is then whenever we are on these, you know VK grades, like anything is going to feel better than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, move much better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I agree that I think utilizing the steepest kind of you know section of trail in your area and like targeting that for workouts, at least within, like you know, certain cycles, would be really advantageous during mountain season.
Speaker 1:Super cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like incline I'd need to get, I mean have you done it before. I have done it, but I want to. I know it's kind of far, but I'm realizing that like I need to go more frequently. Like even for like approaching the VK, like I know getting it at altitude would be important, but I think, like the power of running up those steps, I think would pay off more so, and I also know that most athletes don't have the access to that, so it could be.
Speaker 1:I think it's a superpower, yeah. Superpower so and I think too, like just from the, from the pacing perspective, I think that helps so much like, yeah, for the first, I mean, at least for me I could run most of it until I get to that. You know that super middle, horrible, steep section Like it's not like the steps are like kind of gaps too. Well, I'm short. Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 2:I am too. So I'm like I'm having to double step. I'm having to double step, yeah, yeah, I'm like, oh my God, this is so hard.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking like, because like Allie Mack, like runs up the entire damn thing, and I'm like she's built like a bird. How does she do this Like?
Speaker 2:how is that possible?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I was just impressed, like it's so hard and I think that's the other aspect of it too is the fact that it's so hard that, like I don't know, I feel like a race effort should never feel that bad when you, if you're like doing a workout on the incline, like it just sucks so bad. So, yeah, I definitely 10 out of 10 recommend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I agree, but it's like I don't know it's fun to talk about like mountain specific things like with just in this podcast, because I feel, like in other podcasts that I've had, they don't, they don't quite like well less of them are athletes. I think athletes are like just really dive into like the specificity of, like the skills of just like uphill running. You know it's like its own. Well, it's high level stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that I think people I don't think a lot of people think that deeply into it and I think that is the aspect that will separate athletes. It's so weird the way I think of it. This is bizarre because I'm a weirdo, but like the way I think of it is like when you think of, like, mixed martial arts right, it's a completely different sport, but people know wrestling, jujitsu, Muay Thai, boxing, all these different things and if you're really good at all of these different things, it's going to make you the best MMA athlete. Same thing with ultra running what's your downhill like? What's your uphill? What kind of uphills? How are you good on technical? Can you boulder and can you scramble? There's just so much to it that people don't get.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, and then you're forced like to figure those things out, like you have to race in order to know. Like you, I think, if you do a training run, even if it's like a threshold, you still don't really quite. You can't quite figure it out until you're like in a race environment and you're like whoa, like that section really rocked me, or I felt really great in this section, or I went out too hard and I I got, you know, felt the consequences for it, or I went out easier this time, but then this, you know, it's like there's always some aspect of like a VK where you're like I can improve here, how do I improve? And so it's like a constant, like tweaking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a puzzle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a puzzle. But then it's like, if you are, you do get better at that one section, you might then like lose some of your um, fitness or your skills and these other areas. And I think that's the part that is really tough for me is like okay, right now I'm okay at the runnable, like vert, um, but then like when I get on steeper terrain, I've always I'm used to being better, like okay and steeper terrain, but I'm noticing that I don't quite have those gears yeah or like my physiology, physiology, physiology.
Speaker 2:I can't say physiology has like changed yeah, and so it's like okay, I have to have to like repattern that and like get on that kind of terrain.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree with you more. And that's the thing too, like I've seen in myself. So, for instance, like I was saying, most of the early season, like March to maybe May, I was doing the incline like three times a week. If I even cut it back to like one time a week, like, yeah, if I'm fresh I can run a great time, I'm super happy with it. Um, but like if I'm a little tired, like dude, I feel it Like and I'm like, oh God, and like I'm like you get to that middle section and you just don't have the gears and I'm like this is why I need to do this three times a week, to just be able to have that mode. Like I don't know, I feel like in the like the super, super. That's the only place where I seem to get that power that I can translate to other peaks in a lot of ways, like we have like Blodgett Peak and a couple other things on the front range or in Colorado Springs and like that's another gnarly steep thing and it's like a good test piece.
Speaker 1:But I feel like I get the stimulus from, or the strength almost from the incline that I could apply to the stimulus of like something like. Blodgett, which translates more, if you will, into like a Cirque series race.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's, yeah, it's its own, and I feel like there's a lot of people who never give themselves the space to like work on these things. Oh yeah, they just think running down the block. I'm like that's not gonna, it's not gonna cut it for you, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so we've been doing this for now hour and 12. Thank you so much for coming. I do want to get into a couple quick last ending questions. We'll do some goofy ones, but first we'll do some serious ones. First one is who is your? Who, would you say and this could be sub ultra, this could be ultra who's your goat? Male and female.
Speaker 2:Female Emily Forsberg and male Kellyanne Jordan.
Speaker 1:So power couple. Oh, that was quick, that was easy Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. When you were like saying this, I was like I already know my person.
Speaker 1:Fair enough, fair enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Anna Frost too, I mean I feel like, oh, she's so inspiring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she is inspiring.
Speaker 2:I would say both of them know she's in her master's years and like I'm approaching those years and it's like, oh, wow. She's like, you know, like working on, she used to be more sub-ultra and then she's really like worked on, you know, phasing into getting used to like the ultra and did her first hundred. I think her first hundred might have been Western States I might have to fact check that but yeah, like I think she she got in through a hundred K but then I think it was her first and she got top 10. So I'm like, okay, if she can do it, I can do it Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a good answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um who inspires you.
Speaker 2:Just in general.
Speaker 1:Could be anybody.
Speaker 2:Anybody eda um, and just like all those norwegian people, I think, in general just better, and john alba and all that yeah, I just feel like I'm always kind of every time I see anybody from that, those regions, those athletes competing, or like getting you know, if there's like a podcast that comes out, or um, you know, like if Killian speaks, it's like I'm there, like I'm like what do you have to say? I want to hear.
Speaker 2:So, I just kind of soak it in Cause I just feel like, um, their lifestyle is is something that I aspire to and so, aside from like the running and competition, but I just feel like they've just kind of figured it out.
Speaker 1:Dialed everything, dialed everything. Yeah, they have an amazing balance. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, like there's been times where I've been able to connect with Emily in person and I don't know, I just love her. To connect with Emily in person and I don't know, I just love her. I wouldn't say like laissez-faire, but she just, I think she hits like the strike, this balance between, yeah, like the lifestyle and the competition, and I feel like she I mean she takes pride in competing and achieving her goals, but, yeah, I think for her it's about the mountains, it's about, yeah, her lifestyle, and then, like the racing is just like a piece of it, almost like a back thing, and if she's having fun in the training and having fun in the lifestyle, then, like the racing is just like yeah.
Speaker 1:Icing on the cake.
Speaker 2:Icing on the cake.
Speaker 1:yeah, Wow, that's really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I imagine it'd be pretty, pretty awesome to get to meet her. Did you ever get to meet Killian?
Speaker 2:Have I met Killian? I don't think I've met Killian, no.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'd be very like it's the same thing, like so, joe is on the Ultimate Direction team. The first time I met him I almost asked him for an autograph. I was like dude, that's Joseph.
Speaker 2:Gray, holy shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he's like Joe, looks like a professional athlete. He just has that. I don't know, he just is that embodies so much stuff, so I don't know. First time I saw him I was like.
Speaker 2:That's how I felt with Anton. I had my first conversation with Anton.
Speaker 1:I had, like, my first conversation with him I was like, oh my God, yeah, it's Anton Kropichko.
Speaker 2:Holy shit, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so funny how, like yeah, I don't know I fanboy all over, like I'm always like you know on that, but super cool. All right, let's get into the goofy questions. What's your take on Bigfoot?
Speaker 2:Real, real.
Speaker 1:Oh dude, I love it. I'm so happy. I get a lot of haters, a lot of doubters, yeah there's so many doubters out there.
Speaker 2:I'm like there's been so many sightings, there's evidence out there, come on, I'm so happy Come on people.
Speaker 1:I have a buddy, evan. He actually works at 7,000 Foot Running Co. Evan Paul I've had on the pod once and he Uh, and he's always like cause he's the one I asked, cause he's he does SAR as well for South Chaffee.
Speaker 2:County.
Speaker 1:So I'm like dude, you ever see like you ever see him out there, like what's going on out there? He goes. No, he's like. It's like the craziest thing I've ever seen is a naked guy running through the woods with like on like a mushroom trip or something like that, like down in Crestone or something.
Speaker 2:I was like that, that's a thing. That's a thing too. Well, I had a friend I mean we know how long time but I have a friend who lives in Auburn and he has some property on the Western States course like 300 acres, and he has a little cabin there and he has a story. I won't get into it, but he it's like a hour long story and he goes into detail and he's like I can't explain what I experienced, but it has to have been Bigfoot.
Speaker 1:Whoa yeah.
Speaker 2:And he like remembers this noise, and then he is like going down these blogs and, you know, like listening to all these recordings of other people who have recorded the Bigfoot sound.
Speaker 1:Yeah the yell, yeah the yell.
Speaker 2:And he's like. That was what I heard, Whoa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:See, I want to believe.
Speaker 1:So much of me is like yes, like I really hope that some large gigantopithecus ape thing is like walking around yeah.
Speaker 2:And my friend is like super rational, like he's like a brainiac, like scientist, like nerd and he's like I swear, like.
Speaker 1:I mean that's the spot too, like he's in, mean that's the spot too. Yeah, that's Northern California to the Pacific Northwest, that's where he's apparently hanging out, so I don't know.
Speaker 2:His name is Bill Rose and he's like multi-generation Auburn and he's like told a friend of his he used to be a firefighter and he like had interaction with another friend of his and I was like I'm pretty sure I saw like me and my son were driving up there and they saw some like blob thing like run across the road and they're like that was, it was on two feet and I was standing up and they're like it wasn't a bear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bears don't run like that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I don't know, I'm like I fine. All right, all right, all right. So you give me, you give me hope, all right. Last question what is your take on the aliens? Like, just if I believe that there's other worlds out there? Yes, yeah, okay All right, Fair enough.
Speaker 1:Well, I feel like we're in. We're in, I should say it's the. San Luis Valley is not far away and that's like the alien capital of. Colorado. So like there's always, like you know, I don't know, I mean.
Speaker 2:I haven't had any like I don't know, celestial or contacts or whatever, but I do believe that there's life elsewhere. There has to be.
Speaker 1:I think that I agree. Yeah, all right. Well, on that note, thank you so much for coming. This was so much fun. Yeah, it was fun. Do you have any um anything to plug Instagram or business and stuff like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, our business Instagram is mountain endurance team and my personal is anime Flynn's. It's pretty easy, um, and yeah, that's about all I have. Cool, yeah, you can find my website there, and yeah, and the bio, and yeah, awesome, well, thank you so much. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Awesome. What'd you guys think I told you this was an absolute banger of an episode. Man, I just keep singles, doubles and home runs all day with these incredible guests. Just an amazing human anime is, and I just really want to shout her out and just like, like I said, personally thank her for coming on and just having this amazing conversation.
Speaker 1:Before we get going, I do want to give a couple of plugs out. I want you guys to hop on Instagram and, if you don't already give her a follow, hop on Instagram and give her a follow at Anna May Flynn. Pretty straightforward, there is her Instagram handle and also, if you guys are looking for coaches, right now she does is a main coach. I think she's pretty sure she's owns it the mountain endurance team, which is also tagged on her Instagram bio. So if you guys are looking for coaching, go ahead and go ahead and pan on over to the Mountain Endurance Team, and you can also find her as well at themountainenduranceteamcom. And if you guys are looking for coaching, you can kind of head on over to there.
Speaker 1:Like Anna talked about in the podcast, it's not just coaching. There's a lot more to it from a diet perspective, from a mental perspective, there's all these different things and solutions and things that they can offer you. So, yeah, go ahead and give them a follow if you guys are interested. Last but not least, if you guys enjoyed this podcast on Spotify and Apple, you can go ahead and give us a rating and a review. I would really appreciate that from the bottom of my heart, trying to get the word out on the Steep Stuff podcast as much as possible, and the more ratings and reviews we have, the more we can kind of get this out to the general audience, for you know, kind of covering the sub ultra scene. So I really appreciate you all. Thank you so much for listening to this episode and giving it the love. Yeah, until next time, guys. Thanks so much, thank you.