The Steep Stuff Podcast
Lacey Bourgois | From the World of OCR to Sub-Ultra
What makes obstacle course racing (OCR) so enticing for athletes, and how does it compare to sub-ultra trail running? We promise you'll gain a fresh perspective as we chat with the phenomenal Lacey Bourgois on the newest episode of the Steep Stuff Podcast. From her latest feats at the Gorge Waterfall 30K and Quad Rock 25 Mile to her unique insights on training for the 2023 and 2024 race seasons, Lacey offers a wealth of knowledge for both seasoned runners and newcomers alike. Her journey from the plains of North Dakota to the trails of Colorado Springs provides a fascinating backdrop to her athletic prowess.
Lacey's story isn't just about physical endurance; it's also about mental resilience. We explore the psychological strategies that keep her focused, including her approach to managing social media comparisons. By highlighting standout performances like Ace Brown's top 10 finish and Hannah's remarkable ACL recovery, we underscore the importance of self-confidence and resilience in the running community. We also touch on the nitty-gritty of local races, the logistics of securing race entries, and the rising popularity of trail running.
Lastly, we shed light on the physical and emotional hurdles athletes face, from dealing with injuries to staying motivated throughout the race season. Lacey shares how role models like Lindsay Webster have inspired her in the OCR world, and we discuss the importance of community support for our podcast. Don't miss out on this compelling conversation that blends athletic insights, personal stories, and essential training tips. Tune in, rate, and review us to help grow this vibrant community of running enthusiasts!
What makes obstacle course racing (OCR) so enticing for athletes, and how does it compare to sub-ultra trail running? We promise you'll gain a fresh perspective as we chat with the phenomenal Lacey Bourgois on the newest episode of the Steep Stuff Podcast. From her latest feats at the Gorge Waterfall 30K and Quad Rock 25 Mile to her unique insights on training for the 2023 and 2024 race seasons, Lacey offers a wealth of knowledge for both seasoned runners and newcomers alike. Her journey from the plains of North Dakota to the trails of Colorado Springs provides a fascinating backdrop to her athletic prowess.
Lacey's story isn't just about physical endurance; it's also about mental resilience. We explore the psychological strategies that keep her focused, including her approach to managing social media comparisons. By highlighting standout performances like Ace Brown's top 10 finish and Hannah's remarkable ACL recovery, we underscore the importance of self-confidence and resilience in the running community. We also touch on the nitty-gritty of local races, the logistics of securing race entries, and the rising popularity of trail running.
Lastly, we shed light on the physical and emotional hurdles athletes face, from dealing with injuries to staying motivated throughout the race season. Lacey shares how role models like Lindsay Webster have inspired her in the OCR world, and we discuss the importance of community support for our podcast. Don't miss out on this compelling conversation that blends athletic insights, personal stories, and essential training tips. Tune in, rate, and review us to help grow this vibrant community of running enthusiasts!
Hey guys, welcome back to the steep stuff podcast. I'm your host, james Lauriello, and today we've got another phenomenal episode to bring you guys. Miss Lacey Burgess joins us on the steep stuff pod. If you guys are unfamiliar with Lacey, she currently resides in Colorado Springs and she is active on both the OCR and the trail sub ultra trail runner scene.
Speaker 1:Uh, Lacey is just an amazing athlete and it was really exciting to get to talk to her about her 2023 and 2024 season, where she just finished up racing at both the Gorge waterfall 30 K as well as running the quad rock 25 mile. It was such a fun opportunity to get to talk to her, talk about her upcoming season and kind of plans um, as well as her training Um. She also really did me a favor and kind of did this deep dive into both this world of OCR versus sub ultra and kind of compare the athletes and just discuss the world of OCR that you guys might be unfamiliar with. So pretty interesting, really fun episode. Lacey is amazing, amazing human and amazing athlete altogether, so we want to thank her as well for coming on the pod. All right, I'm going to stop rambling. Steep Stuff Podcast Lacey Burgess it's time. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 2:We are live Okay.
Speaker 1:So sorry guys. We just recorded about 15 minutes of audio and my MacBook decided to totally die on me. And we are back. We're live with Lacey. I want to say Borgoy, but it's not, it's Burgess.
Speaker 2:You got it.
Speaker 1:Lacey. Thanks so much for coming back on Again.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry to restart this entire conversation. Oh, no worries, that was just a practice round, that was good.
Speaker 1:It was good. It was good Nice and rehearsed. If you don't mind me asking, would you introduce yourself and just tell people where you're from. Kind of go back from there.
Speaker 2:Sure, no problem. So I am a trail runner, slash. I started out in obstacle course racing. I lived in Minnesota for about nine years before I came to Colorado. I've been here about four and a half years, and I grew up in North Dakota.
Speaker 1:Awesome North Dakota. How long were you in North Dakota for before you moved to Minnesota? Like almost your entire life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my entire adult life basically.
Speaker 1:What was it like growing up there? Like pretty, pretty cool adult life.
Speaker 2:Basically, what was it like growing up there? Like pretty, pretty cool. Whatever I tell people I'm from north dakota, they're always like, oh yeah, I love mount rushmore and you know, like the trails and the black hills, and they start referencing all these things.
Speaker 1:I'm like that is south dakota, that is a different state, but thank you do you have any family like because I know it's like very petroleum heavy do you have any family that works in the petroleum industry?
Speaker 2:Oh really, no, not that work in it, but that's correct. There was a huge oil boom there, so it kind of seems like it's fading in and out in terms of money. But no, none of my family works in there, that's just usually what people think of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, wow. You what people think of. Yeah, yeah, wow. I just read a really good article. Everybody's kind of not up in arms, but they're all like have concerns because like grizzly bears are starting to move further east and like they're crossing into the plains, evidently, and they're starting to get them in north dakota, which is wild I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually. Um, my dad sent me a picture of a moose a couple months ago that was in their backyard and I was like you guys have moose. That doesn't seem right, no, it doesn't, when you think about it.
Speaker 1:I mean wolves make sense. I mean, like I would imagine minnesota timber wolves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in minnesota there's a lot of wolves, yeah super cool.
Speaker 1:I'm a big animal buff, like I. Uh, that's like one question I always like to end on the podcast is like, what's your take on colorado grizzlies? Like we, we don't have them here, but there's like controversy because, like every now and then, like there's like a semi-credible sighting in the san juans which is pretty wild.
Speaker 2:So I think it'd be so cool to see one in colorado too, like maybe when you're in a car or something dude yeah, I don't think people realize how big they are.
Speaker 1:Like I was. Uh, it's funny. We they have this like weird thing at the shiny mountain zoo where you can like take your dogs to the zoo. So like we, we take our, we like we took our dogs like two weeks ago and of course they're like first thing I want to go to is like let's go see the grizzly bears and you see the enormity of those things like holy shit. Like I don't ever want to run up to anything near that's like because, like black bears here are tiny, like they're, they're not that big yeah but the grizzly bear like that's a huge animal I feel like people in colorado in general are pretty stupid about wildlife.
Speaker 2:Not that I'm the smartest human in the entire world, but you see people on trails like taking pictures of black bears or like they have their dogs off leash yeah, yeah and you're like dude, like that's still a black bear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if they have cubs nearby, like that black bear is gonna go, or moose, like moose are super mean. I think I'm a little more afraid of moose than I am, just because, like I don't know, I think I see more moose, not around here, but especially like in the high peaks during the summer I see moose all the time, especially in the mosquito range or everywhere, like black bears a lot less, like I don't know. I run a lot in palmer lake and I don't know I probably saw like three or four black bear last year.
Speaker 1:One of them I like literally I was stupid enough, I was wrong with earphones in and I got from like me to you and like, almost ran into it, like he had his back turned he turned around and looked at me and I looked at him and he just like took off, but it was. He could have easily killed me, like if I, if he wanted to, you know yeah, I think people don't realize.
Speaker 2:Also, like I didn't realize coming from minnesota I hadn't seen a moose like in nature, but I was running on rampart reservoir yeah one time and it's a single track that makes a big loop around and I was running by myself with earbuds in, just not paying attention, and came across a moose that I know they have poor eyesight and they don't really know what you are, but it just like kept charging towards me and it like wasn't moving slow, that's terrifying. And I was so scared Like it took me by surprise. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, like it was a warning, Like what did you do?
Speaker 1:Did you like slowly back up and then like run the other way as fast as you can?
Speaker 2:I like backed into a bush and was like maybe he can't see me behind this bush, and then, yeah, I went back the same direction, so I had to backtrack but oh man but then I was trying to warn people like hey, there's moose up there, just so you know, and I remember they were like cool yeah, let's go get a selfie with it just like be careful, guys it's fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and I think it's because we have so many transplants that like people from like all over the country, it doesn't register like there's wildlife here, like people are like that's, you know yeah, they just think it's like for them to take pictures yeah not to actually deal with in real life yeah, it's one thing.
Speaker 1:I kind of um, I don't know like I love colorado and I love where we live, but like part of me always wanted to be almost a little more in a wild place. Like montana makes a lot of sense because, like most of the high peaks out there are very hard to get to, like very inaccessible. I think it's like I can't remember it's gannett or granite, one of the two, um, because one's in wyoming, one's in montana, it's like a 20 mile out and back, like it's a long, like those peaks are long day and you don't see a lot of people, which is why I kind of like, I like to go down to the sangres a lot because don't like, unless you're going like even on the needle nobody goes like it's pretty it feels a little wilder, yeah, a little more remote
Speaker 1:whereas, like, if you're in this, even if you're in the san juans, like it's, it's a shame because it's such a beautiful wild place, but, like during the summer, it's like overran now, yeah, it sucks like the first time I did yale this last, like I hadn't really done many 14ers, and I started doing them this last summer and I had no idea that there were just tons of people on the easier ones you know, and I was like, oh, this kind of sucks.
Speaker 1:And there's all these people here yeah, well, and you know what, next time you go to yale, go up, um, so, and what the hell is the name of it? Uh, what is the name of it? There's another trailhead you can take to to get to like that. Nobody goes on.
Speaker 1:That's like this, like a sweet traverse, that's like kind of class two with some class three mixed in I think I kind of heard about this, but I was like, oh, I don't know yeah, whereas we go the main route, the same with beard stat and evans tort, grays and tories, like I was so like this is terrible to say, but like I was kind of sick to my stomach the last time I went to like beard stat and we went on like a saturday, like two years ago, and like there must have been 300 cars like not only just in the parking lot but like lying down ganella pass it's like yo we gotta, this is wild like how are there this many people capable of doing this?
Speaker 1:yeah, and that's well. The thing is is they're not. It's like people on the incline. Oh my gosh, uh I shouldn't be there no, and you know what it's. It's. Uh, yeah, it's, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Like I don't know, I'll keep it yeah, I know what you mean about montana, though, um, I dated a guy that lived in bozeman and I thought about moving there for a little while because it was before.
Speaker 1:Now there's more people yeah, much more expensive too yeah, much more expensive.
Speaker 2:But this was like 10 years ago and I it kind of like held a special place in my heart Cause I was like, oh, like this is just so beautiful there and it's just quieter. Yeah, you know definitely.
Speaker 1:I just had Jackson call on the podcast and he's, um, he's in Missoula right now. He's training out of there with a couple other athletes, um, and it just sounds like such a fun party. A fun party, it sounds great. I'm like, oh man, this is what a cool town, whereas, like here I love the springs, I love the community of really building here, but it still is. You can tell like it's getting more congested, like, um, if there's like one small accident on 25, for instance, like you're gonna wait for an hour in traffic to get from one side of town to the other, and that's like absolutely.
Speaker 2:The infrastructure wasn't built for it. Yeah, you feel a little entitled even I haven't been here that long but you're like oh, when I first got here, it wasn't like this yeah, yeah why are there so many people?
Speaker 1:so let's uh sorry I'm not gonna change the subject, but this is this is a podcast for you, so I'm gonna dive into uh more about you after we uh I upsettingly uh erased the first 15 minutes of our conversation, so one of the things that I really was excited to have you on for is that you're not just a sub-ultra athlete, you're a dual athlete, so you also do ocr would you mind re-diving into some of the uh, different distances that you do um with ocr and kind of like how you got into that stuff, like that yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Uh, I started off doing like 5k, 10k distances in ocr, um, probably closer to 10 years ago now.
Speaker 2:It's been a while, um. But when I first started, uh, well, I'm a pretty big rock climber and I was already trail running quite a bit. So I did one just kind of for fun Spartan Race and then really fell in love with it, just because it's just such a good combination of using your strength, agility, speed, like you kind of get to do everything in one race and you can't be like super paper thin, like you have to have a little bit of upper body strength to a certain degree. So I just felt like it was a healthy mix of things, because most of the training that you're doing would translate like rock climbing, weightlifting, you know, like plyometrics, things like that, because you're jumping up and down things a lot. So it just kind of made you well-rounded and like you could become good at anything if you're jumping up and down things a lot. So it just kind of made you well-rounded and like you could become good at anything if you're training for ocr, sort of if that makes sense yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:I mean at first. I'll be honest with you. So, like I knew about ocr, um, I did a sprint years ago and I loved it, thought it was really fun. One of the things I told you before was that like I was a little iffy on because cause I did it in South Florida and they have those like weird drops of water that you have to like swim under and I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to get a brain in me, but in this water it was a little iffy on that, but outside of that it seems super fun.
Speaker 1:But it popped on my radar from a competitive perspective Cause I think it was Ryan Atkins and, like Johnny Luma Lima. Um, they were doing like broken arrow a few years back and one of the things they like highlighted on on um kind of like the live stream. We're talking about how they were ocr athletes as well and I was like, oh, I didn't know, like this was like a big thing that people do and started research. I was like this looks like a lot of fun. Um, so, yeah, it seems like a really like fun, well-rounded sport and definitely like gels.
Speaker 2:Well, with mountain, uh, like I guess you'd say mountain athletics in a lot of ways yeah, absolutely a lot of spartan courses too aren't even on real trails and I think that can either like irritate you or excite you a lot of times. But, like I did one in texas two years ago it was like like central Texas and I remember it it just felt like you're completely off-roading for like half the race and it's exciting, but it's also like really easy to roll your ankle Like. I ended up spraining my ankle like twice during that race.
Speaker 2:And that's where I think so if that's not a style that makes you excited, a lot of people are like fuck this.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's good, though, like to I mean like the fact that like stuff is not on if it's not on trail, right, like that's a good skill to build, to be able to run off trail or just like running on, you know, like really like nasty, gnarly, technical terrain, because you know a lot of people can't do that. So that translates so well to like the sky running in the world and like these really gnarly mountain races. In a lot of ways, 100 percent.
Speaker 2:Uh, it makes you commit a lot more, like when we were talking about um that 30k that I just stayed out in oregon to gorge waterfalls congrats on that, by the way oh, thanks it.
Speaker 2:It was kind of one of those races, though, where you wished you would have like sacrificed your body a little bit more, just because, uh, if you didn't commit to downhills and really just go for it, whether you sprain your ankle or not, you weren't going to be in the top five yeah basically and that's a little bit how Spartan racing can be at times too so.
Speaker 2:But you can also get some courses like you kind of never really know until you get there and that's what Spartan used to specialize into was you can read the course map all you want and like, look at the elevation profile and that sort of thing, but then you get there and you can still be like what the fuck, is that Like?
Speaker 2:you know, there's just always like little surprises in obstacle course racing. So if you're like really type A and you always know everything about a course map, you have it downloaded to your watch, you're like super dialed in, then I don't think obstacle course racing would be for you.
Speaker 2:You got to be ready to like kind of roll with the punches then yeah, okay, stuff happens a lot, you gotta be ready to like kind of roll with the punches, then like, yeah, okay, stuff happens a lot and like, especially before, uh, spartan race used to have burpees as penalties, so it was 30 burpees every time you'd fail an obstacle and once you reach a certain point like level, if you fail any obstacle and you're doing 30 burpees, you're dropping so many places just for that, because it's such a time you know that probably takes you two, two and a half minutes or something and easily.
Speaker 1:Are people like watching you, like counting reps when you're doing? Yeah, there's cameras, oh shit, and there's referees and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:And yeah, you can get like penalties later on, like I've been in national series races where I thought I got 10th and then I look at results three hours later and I got a penalty and I get like 17th. Oh, wow. You know. So there's a lot of things that can like crush your ego in the sport, but it's also like an equalizer.
Speaker 1:Do you think it's? It's a sport that's its own now in a lot of ways, and it it's got a hell of a lot more prize money than like trail running has, right? So is there more competition then in in like those types of races at that point?
Speaker 2:yeah, I would say it's really variable, just like trail races, but if there's a big prize purse then there is good competition generally, like we were just talking about how they had the biggest prize purse in OCR world history recently and out in the Middle East and it was like $100,000. And so that's going to attract a big variety of athletes and even just like really good runners like you said John Albin.
Speaker 2:So. But it's also like you can go do one somewhere in California Like I've done a few in different parts of California where you would think that there's really good competition and you might get walk away with the first or second place or something, and you're like, oh, I don't know why people didn't go to that, or something.
Speaker 1:Gotcha Really variable, and that's you. Like you said, that's the way the trail trail world is still at this point, you know um? I mean it'd be interesting to see, like if they start handing out like 100 grand at utmb yeah see who would show up to that.
Speaker 1:You know like it would definitely have like professional cyclists roadies. You'd have everybody coming over to uh to kind of capitalize on that and see if they could do it yeah, definitely, it already seems like all the road runners are coming down the trail running more and more too yeah, it's an interesting conversation actually.
Speaker 1:I actually have had this on like so many podcasts before where I'm always interested to get like people's takes on this. Like I had ben townsend in here and he's one of the few that like just decided to forego a college, like college running, and decided to just go straight to the trails and because that's what he wants to do. But one of the interesting chats that we had was you know, like the crossover athlete, if you're really fast on the track or really fast and cross country, like how well does that? Because that's the average, yeah, versus, you know, like you're also getting like these, um, like ski mountaineers, you're also getting like nordic skiers and they seem to translate really well to the trails, whereas it's almost like hit or miss in the ultra world, um, with a lot of these guys, whereas the sub ultra world seems to cross over a little bit closer. But I feel like the ultra world it's like very hit or miss.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I agree. I think those Schemo athletes just have such a big engine. Yeah. You know, and so much power that they can just drive that uphill and just crush the trails. I am really impressed with those people that they spend the entire winter doing Schemo, backcountry stuff and then they'll go right into trail racing and like crush everybody yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's's. It's so funny you say that. So this, this is this year, uh, or like this upcoming winter season, I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna do like a solid month or two block of like tangible, just no running, skiing, and then seeing like where throwing in some running, see where the injuries pop up if they do, and then see where that comes. It seems to work, like these people, these Europeans, like crush it. So I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would think not running year round to just not having that impact would take away a lot of those overuse injuries or like make you less susceptible to them.
Speaker 1:I guess, yeah, yeah, it's a good idea yeah, yeah, I mean usually every off season because, like colorado springs is kind of funny in that way. We're like we don't really get enough snow to like keep us from the trails in a lot of ways, so you can have a full season year round in a lot of ways, which is what I do. I have been doing so I don't know. I'm just like kind of like I'm always looking for these like little puzzle pieces that I can like put together to like improve my game, and I feel like that might be one of them, you know yeah, no, I agree too.
Speaker 2:I would like to do more cross training like that during the winter in general I like got kind of.
Speaker 1:I just met a buddy, like I met a really good friend of mine now that uh runs for our tarix and he does a like he literally just only skis 14ers in the winter and then like has a full trail season.
Speaker 2:I'm like whoa, that's a different way to look at it yeah, because if you're spending so much time up higher than 10 000 feet consistently, that also just puts you at an advantage for races like leadville yeah, big time, you know, because other people aren't spending that much time up there no, I mean I know I'm not like I.
Speaker 1:I haven't been on a 14er since last, like october, so it's been a while yeah, same so um, all right, so let's dive into we talked a little bit about ocr, one of the questions I had for like ocr when you are about to like go into a competition, do you know, like what the obstacles are going to be ahead of time, like, can you preview the course or how does that work usually?
Speaker 2:yeah, spartan used to be a little bit more mysterious back in the day, like 10 years ago when I first started, where they had a course map but you didn't know, they had like surprise obstacles. I remember they had like memory tests where you would have to and this was mostly not for the elites and pros, it was for, like the open waves and competitive heats but you'd have to like memorize a series of numbers and then like uh, eight miles later you'd have to repeat that sequence that's fucking horrible I know, but it was creative, you know, because then you had to use your mind, yeah, um, they're also a little bit easier to get lost than a trail race or a road race, um, really, which I've experienced several times like ocr, races are harder, easier to get lost in.
Speaker 2:Uh well, when you think about it, and I mean, I think I'm the upper percentile of people who I just have really terrible race brain and I don't know where I'm going- okay, no, I'm paying attention. Oh my god, I gotta go.
Speaker 2:But a lot of times you come out of an obstacle, a certain direction, and then you're supposed to go. You know maybe you're supposed to go East or something, but you don't see an arrow right away. So you just keep running straight. But you got turned around because you're going through a couple obstacles or whatever. So it frequently happens, like the first time it happened to me. I thought I won a race in Minnesota it was the Minnesota sprint and anyways they like announced me as the winner and everything, and I was like taking photos and stuff. And then they like went back and they noticed that the second place, female, was just too far behind. It just didn't make sense. And then they went through my trip and they're like, yeah, you skipped something. Oh man. That's going to be a horrible feeling.
Speaker 2:And it's not like you'd ever do that intentionally.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it just happens in obstacle course racing Take a long turn.
Speaker 1:Listen. Like that happens all the time in the trail world At least. I have to really like I'm loving like the new chorus feature where when you put in like a, like a course on your watch, like it'll like tell you a couple steps ahead of time like left or right, and I'm like, oh, this is great, because I I'm pretty bad with getting lost myself we have to get realistic with ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's fair, that's fair but yeah, that is the worst feeling ever I have. That have had that in trail race before too, where you start to like see, like oh, I haven't seen an arrow or a trail marker you're looking over your shoulder and that's the worst feeling.
Speaker 1:Oh my god yeah, yeah that's fair. Um, trying to think of like more ocr stuff I can ask you, because I'm just like so interested in that world yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It used to be better because spartan was ultimately supporting a number of athletes and then you'd get a season pass so you didn't have to pay for races and then Spartan sponsors would help you with like gear and traveling and things like that.
Speaker 2:So when I first got into that world and started getting good at it, it was like really attractive because you're like, oh, you want to provide some sort of sponsorship to me.
Speaker 2:Like hell yeah, why wouldn't I do this? And then during COVID, spartan sort of went like more or less bankrupt and started having a lot of financial problems. They laid a ton of people off, like one of their icons, steve Hammond. They just laid him off, like in the last year, and then they got rid of their pro team. They stopped supporting athletes and it sort of turned into this big ordeal where athletes like Ryan Atkins, lindsay Webster and them they kind of pushed back a little bit and just like decided not to do a lot of those races anymore because there wasn't much motivation and spartan wasn't really making very good decisions to support anyone yeah, it's interesting because I feel like that in that time frame, that's when we started seeing a lot of those athletes kind of cross over into the trail world and kind of dabble like I think that's where I actually found out about ryan atkins.
Speaker 1:Like when watching the broken arrow live stream I was like who is this gigantic Jack dude? Like racing and like throwing down against these like skinny trail dudes, you know.
Speaker 2:He does. He looks like a linebacker.
Speaker 1:Well, it was so funny. I don't know whose Instagram it was on and this is no shade. You know, kieran is, he's like a monument, he lives from monument. But there's a. There's a famous photo of like like ryan atkins, looking like a greek god standing next to skinny near and karen and like just talking to him, they're like like two different like species of human.
Speaker 1:like it was very funny, uh, but it's just interesting how, like those different types of athletes that come from two completely different backgrounds can like throw down on a similar course and have like great times and that's why I love the mountain races like Like it's kind of fun that way.
Speaker 2:I totally agree. There's different physiques that are successful. I think trail running, obstacle course racing are definitely more body positive for females because, yeah, you'll look at a lot of OCR girls at the start line and I remember a good running partner of mine once told me never judge a girl by the size of her butt. And that's so true because you see these girls and you're like, oh, she looks like she just does a lot of crossfit or something.
Speaker 2:But a lot of them can run yeah, you know, and if you can run and if you're super strong, I mean mean you're going to dominate in any sport, pretty much.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure. No, it's definitely. It's interesting because I guess in the trail world, because so many people come from cross country and like track and field and I think a lot of them had carried like or I should say, a lot of the elites come from like cross country and track and field and I think, unfortunately, in those college programs you know it's a tough spot to survive you know a lot of them are, you know, have really bad problems when it comes to diet and stuff like that, and I feel like that a lot of that carries over and you tend to see a lot of physiques that are like just very lean, like as lean as it comes, whereas like that might not be the most optimal physique in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:you know what I'm saying from like a nut, from a fueling perspective and things like that, yeah, yeah, it kind of promotes eating disorders big time, big time or less, and um, I think, like bailey kowalski is, I say kowalski yeah, she's been very vocal about her struggles, that's what that reminded me of. But now she just looks like a muscular, really in shape female and she's just like crushing trail racing shout out to bailey, like she just got third.
Speaker 1:Uh, was it yesterday or the day before at the sky race day math to see I saw that fucking awesome like what a what an accomplishment I gotta have her on the pod. I gotta reach out to her. But yeah she's, she's a killer. Um, like, yeah it's, it's very cool to see, like a local you know Coloradan.
Speaker 2:And she's a good reminder like feel your body. Don't look at social media and think that you have to be super thin to be a distance runner. Like that's not real life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree that's a tough thing to deal with. Like it's not just I think body positivity or body image is a big thing, but even also like I don't know. People always get on the Strava game and they're, like you know, concerned with what other people are doing. I feel like people aren't enough concerned about like just worry about yourself kind of thing People get so you know concerned about. I think Rob Carr had a great saying. It was like comparison is the thief of joy.
Speaker 2:I've said that before too. I love that quote. This is such a good quote. Um, yeah, you should say it like once a week when you're ever getting like jealous or a little too envious of someone else yeah, oh, big time, big time but speaking of strava, have you felt like since you've moved to the springs, strava here is so much more competitive?
Speaker 1:I have to be really careful. Uh, I am, yeah, like because I'm one of those people like I oh, this is deep, this is deep cut. So, like I don't follow a lot of people in strava, like you know, people know like, if I, if I give you a follow on strava, it's it's for one of you're, either a really good friend of mine, or it's because I'm gonna be racing you soon and I want to know what you're doing.
Speaker 2:I do that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's do a deep dive and I'm like what is this, what is this guy or gal doing? Um, and like I, I have to be honest with you, like a lot of the people I follow, like I, I have them, like I'll give kudos, but a lot of people I have muted, believe it or not, because I want to, especially if I'm getting ready for a race, because it's almost like a mind game, like I don't want to see what anybody else is doing. I just want to do my best to try and focus, because you can get caught up in that trap where it's like, oh shit, I only got a 25 minute incline this week and I should have done like 23 minutes. And I'm like, oh well, this guy just did this on green mountain. And I'm like, you know, you can't get caught up in that, because here it's really really tough.
Speaker 2:That sounds like a healthy cleanse. I've been doing similar things lately. I just haven't been on it as much because, yeah, sometimes you think whatever you did that day was fucking awesome. And then you go on strava and you're like, okay, just kidding, this person did this and it was 5 400 feet of gain and it was fast as fuck. And then you're like, uh, you can easily just like beat yourself up.
Speaker 1:You know, you know ace brown, yeah so ace is uh, I think he would be okay with me saying this he's like a local killer. He's not even a local killer, he's a national level, just killer. And it always made me laugh because unfortunately now he's a little injured, but when he's on his A game, no matter what I do, I'll go on Strava, and it's not even close to what his normal run is. The dude is just so good and yeah, you just can't get caught up in that. You know, because on race day it's a different game, you know yeah, he seems just like a nice dude.
Speaker 2:He's the best. I love him like not full of himself he's.
Speaker 1:No, he's. The best example I use is because like he's one of those people that are just not concerned with, he's the least competitive person. Like he's competitive but like he doesn't care, like he just wants to be in the mountains and enjoy himself and then meanwhile he's like the fastest person I've ever met in my life yeah um, yeah, so that's, it's interesting just real confidence yeah that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you can't get caught up in uh and that stuff. So one of the things I want to kind of pivot to was your 2024 season, cause it's been off to absolutely amazing start. Like you said before, we kind of talked about gorge waterfall. You got a top 10 result there, which was great you got to. Did you get to talk to Hannah when you were out there, or me?
Speaker 2:I know, hannah yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know her super well, but I'm just kind of curious. I'm just kind of curious because I know she was another local.
Speaker 2:Colorado spring yeah, she was my PT for a while. I tore my ACL a few years ago and she helped me a lot with PT and that kind of thing. Cool people yeah, she got really fast, really fast yeah.
Speaker 1:Good Shout out to Hannah. She's another one I got to have on, but one of the results I really wanted to talk about was your run through time uh half marathon, where you got second place Fucking awesome.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks, yeah, Appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Do you want to? Uh, maybe we can unpack that race a little bit and talk about it, cause I feel like run through time is something that a lot of Colorado Springs people probably familiar with that race or you know, or Colorado people will be, but it doesn't get as much notoriety as I think it's. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree I thought that was a really cool race. Uh, it's a half marathon out in Salida and it's on semi-technical trails. I would say some of them are pretty fast, easy, breezy, but then there's also like a little bit of rock scrambling um, some technical downhills and that sort of thing and it's a really good mix. Uh, like, I really enjoyed those trails and it was fun because I got to race with a couple girls that we were like trading spots back and forth and then, like one of them disappeared. Never knew what happened to her. Um, another girl she passed me a couple times, her name is becky lynn. Then I passed her, so it was. It made it a lot more engaging yeah, it's a real race.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're not by yourself like you're just really going back and forth, love that yeah, so that was a good time.
Speaker 2:It was also like pretty cold. It snowed the day before, but I don't know how you feel, but I think I'm much better in colder temperatures 100, it depends, it depends.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm like a 60s guy, you know, like if we're, if we're in like the 20s, I'm like. I don't know about that, but like you know, I like like it kind of mild, but yeah, I love spring weather usually yeah so you get a good mix of everything with the exception of wind like this. This wind we got going on today is horrendous it's just casual 65 milemile-an-hour gusts. Did you take 25 on the way up right? Yeah, did you see any cars tipped over on the road.
Speaker 2:I saw some random stuff. There was a mattress in the middle of the road I was like whoa Okay, Things you see on 25. Yeah, I ran in Stradden before this and there was a lot of trees down, big trees.
Speaker 1:I this, and there was a lot of trees down like big trees. I'm sure I'm sure I'm kind of like nervous to go up to blodgett and see what the deal is this week, because that area had like burned and there's already one tree block in the route, the trail, so I'm sure there's five trees blocking the trail now yeah so yeah, yeah I'm trying to get into quad rock this week okay, yeah, I saw that on your.
Speaker 2:I was looking, I was checking out your your ultra sign up I'm like number 10 on the wait list so I'm sort of like um, should I taper uh?
Speaker 1:it's this saturday, right? Yeah, oh shit is wait. Is the 25 mile right, not the? 50 okay, so yeah, might as well like keep my fingers crossed.
Speaker 2:How do you find?
Speaker 1:out. Like are they? Because I know a lot of races are like if you just show up, they'll let you in, like usually I've kind of heard that too.
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't know if I would want to like pull that card that's kind of far. Yeah, fort collins is a little bit of a drive I mean, I already rented an airbnb, we'll probably just go out there for the weekend anyways. But the waitlist I always feel like the longer the race, the more they plow through it yeah it seems, and so I was like 23rd or something last week, and now I'm number 10, so I think, I think I'll get in yeah, if not.
Speaker 1:I mean, I shouldn't say this on the podcast, but like you, ghost run it. No, I was just gonna say like pull rank a little bit, just like.
Speaker 2:Hey, like you know, shoot an email to the rd like tell them who you are, and yeah, probably let you in yeah, you know I've heard, though, that race directors are getting to the point where they don't let a lot of people in because too many people do that. I don't know. I haven't really.
Speaker 1:I can't say I did it a little, I've done it a lot, I've done it like maybe a handful of times, uh, just like saying like hey, that's what I introduced myself, and then like see what they say. Um, like it really depends on the race. Like, for instance, like um, like I'll mention his name just because, like he's gonna be coming on the podcast in a couple weeks but like tom hooper, for instance, like he's a us mountain, he's the loon guy, he does loon mountain race. Like pretty sure, if, like someone was to email him with like an amazing resume, he'd probably let him in the race. So, like I think it just depends on the rod you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, that makes sense. I think it would be dumb for them not to let people like that in. Yeah, um, and it's also becoming more of a problem with trail racing, because their caps are so much smaller than road races, obviously, especially the more single track you have, and then they're creating these huge wait lists for everything Cause so many people are getting into trail racing. It's just kind of blowing up, so it's sort of like you have to register immediately.
Speaker 1:Well, it's like the barrier of entry too. I mean, I've had this conversation with with a handful of people. Actually, the best conversation is probably broken arrow. Like I know quite a few really solid athletes that just because broken arrow has like a set amount of elite spots that they can provide to their athletes, you know, a lot of people get kind of left out on, like you know, on the outside, looking in up until like a couple weeks before, in which case then sometimes they'll see like all right, maybe people won't be coming, and then they can kind of open it up like I know that's what they did last year like very last second they were able to get more guys and gals in um. But yeah, a lot of times it's tough and that that like those particular races like the rut um broken arrow, like they fill up like, like in like within the first few hours I wanted to do the rut too.
Speaker 2:I'm like am I ever gonna get to do that race?
Speaker 1:I'm going out this year I like literally like because I there's nothing I could find for like elite stuff, like I don't know, like, if you send an email like I, I don't know, there's nothing like advertised and I didn't, I decided not to ask anyone. So I just like waited until like registration and just signed up for the vk because it's the only race I'm doing there. Um, but yeah, I'm just signed up and so far, so good. But yeah, I don't know if there's any like back channels where, like I know that there's stuff for broken air, like there's like a formal process that you can go through to kind of get it, which I think you would really like those races, like I did iron face last year.
Speaker 1:That race wasn't like particularly for me, but like for someone that like likes rock climbing and like kind of is like into that stuff, plus like with the running component and like is good at obstacle racing. I think you would smoke that course.
Speaker 2:You just definitely so it's a lot of rock climbing kind of it's like three years you're scrambling it's so.
Speaker 1:But you're on a via ferrata so like you're just, you're like in a move in the metal. It's like kind of technical, if you will, because you're like technical with like a gear component to it, so you're like moving the metal wrong and then like trying to balance and doing all that like. I didn't really like it as much but I'm just more of a pure runner, slash, like hiker, but like someone like you that's used to those things I think would be, would do very, very well there.
Speaker 2:So cool, I should check that out. Yeah, yeah, any type of like big variation in a race that you're not just running the whole time.
Speaker 1:I'm like this is sweet yeah, and it's a very it's like the only race in north america that like has anything like that, that's has like a via ferrata component to it, because it's usually this european thing, so definitely unique cool I'll check it out yeah, definitely, definitely so more into your 2024 season. Another thing that I saw, because I'm signed up for it um, I saw you were on the start list for circ series a basin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you'll be doing that this year yeah, last year I was so sad because the week of that race I was running down bar trail and just like clipped a rock and uh ended up fracturing my fibula oh my gosh so, um, they were really cool about it too, because I emailed them and they emailed me right back and they said me right back and they said, yeah, we'll just give you an entry for next year. So I deferred it. So I'm excited to actually do that race that was really nice.
Speaker 1:I see I was signed up, but I was just really tired and I was like not really feeling it. It's a september race and like I'm very hit or miss in september, you know, after, especially because I started my season way earlier last year um, yeah, what a fun race I am. So because that's like a runner's race.
Speaker 1:It's a little bit different than the rest of the cirque series races because it's, you know, for nine miles, it's only like 2000 and change like yeah, not too bad no, it's like and, but I mean it's high altitude, which is kind of like a, you know, the great equalizer, but it's also like a, you know, like there's a lot of road and there's a lot of single track.
Speaker 2:It seems like those Cirque series races are really taken off.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited I'm racing the whole series this year, with the exception of Snowbird. Oh cool yeah.
Speaker 2:Can you? So, if you're doing the series, can you miss one race? Yeah, is that what the deal is?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's like amongst people, so it's like you get x amount of points for where your placement is within your group. So there's the pro, the expert and you know the other one. Um was a beginner, I think and yeah, so you can show up to however many races and like, if you win I think you I can't remember if it's 100 points or 50 points and that just like snowballs from one of the races you go to in Compound. So it's kind of cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like the idea of that. I like the idea of doing a series in general. Yeah. Because it keeps your training consistent. Yeah, also I had friends that were like you should just do the expert category so that you can get all those cool prizes, because I heard there's really good prizes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah. No, they give out. I mean for the pros, they give out prize money. It's not a crazy amount, but I think it's like a grand or two. And then for the experts and the beginner, I believe it's like you get like Yeti coolers and stuff like that, which is pretty dope. I mean, that's, that's not bad. Listen, I'm excited for it because, I don't know, I love those distances. There's like 11 to 14k distances with like two or three thousand feet of vert, like that's my jam, and you're getting like some of the best competition in the world. Like you're getting all different kinds of runners from all different kinds of like really backgrounds, which is cool. It's not just trail runners, um, and yeah, it's just unique. It's like a big julian has like a big party. You know he keeps it pretty cool. It's it's different. It's like not, it's like sub ultra, but it's like its own little world.
Speaker 2:you know, yeah, it's something different. Yeah, they're all at ski resorts, right yeah?
Speaker 1:yeah, so this year they got rid of the switzerland one.
Speaker 2:Um, that one's gone so people didn't go, maybe because it's too much of a commitment I don't know if people didn't, because like it seemed like I don't know.
Speaker 1:I watched the videos and they seemed like they had like a turnout. But I wonder what the cost is of putting on something like that overseas. It must be kind of kind of steep but or as opposed to, like some of the ones here where you can get away with. You know, I guess the permitting is higher because they cap it at like five or six hundred runners or something like that okay, so yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:There's one in alaska right yeah, alaska, I'm not going to go that one this year, I'm going to go next year. So this year I'm doing uh, brighton, alta, grand targhee and a basin. So the four out of the six nice so, yeah, I like it because it's like you're not as focused on the individual result as you are like the overall, like you can have a shitty race and still, like you know, brush it off and like on to the next one.
Speaker 2:You know yeah, I actually feel that way about racing in general, like I probably race more than most of my friends do, but then you're not hyper focused on like one result yeah and then it's a lot easier to like bounce from one thing to the next, Cause if you don't do super well at one race, you're just like well, whatever.
Speaker 1:Do you think that mentality kind of came from OCR, because I know you've done a lot of OCR races? Is that more from that you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of Spartan races. Since you're already traveling to that venue and you're kind of traveling all over the United States most of the time, you most likely will end up doing two races Like that's really common for pros and elites because a lot of them are shorter courses. Even if you do a half marathon one day, I mean you can probably do the 5k the next day.
Speaker 2:It's not that big of a bust, you know. So, um, I think you learn to like race on sore legs a lot, which is not necessarily the best thing for recovery, but what does your training look like?
Speaker 1:so, for what's the next race you're getting ready for?
Speaker 2:um other than maybe quad rock this weekend yeah question mark um after that leadville half okay, cool and that's end of june I'm excited.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to hear you like what your feedback is on that course, because it's I was just looking at it.
Speaker 2:Have you done I've?
Speaker 1:never done it. I was like so I have a couple buddies that are signed up for the marathon and I was just like, so it conflicts with the circ series. There's it's uh, brighton is the same day, on the 29th, but the um, the course looks compelling, like you get really high up. There's it's uh, brighton is the same day on the 29th, but the um, the course looks compelling, like you get really high up. There's a decent amount of vert for a half marathon.
Speaker 2:I was like this is pretty legit. Yeah, I think usually. Well, it's a heavy half technically. Last year I know they cut it a little shorter because of snow yeah but uh, typically I think it's closer to 15 miles, maybe 14 and a half and then maybe 3 500 feet again yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1:It's pretty solid. So solid but speedy, because I feel like a lot of it's on I don't think a lot of it's on single track, a lot of it's on like there's like roads, yeah yeah, that's cool. I like that because you could you could go fast on that. It's kind of fun.
Speaker 1:I'm just hoping I can get up there and do some trails before and get some training in higher around 10 000, that sort of thing well, let me, I'll keep you in the loop because, like I was just literally yesterday I was talking to I don't know if you know who sean remer is. He's a pt in the springs. He's getting ready for the marathon. We've been talking about going up there and actually like running a lot of the marathon course just so because I need to get high up anyway, for like a lot of the Cirque series races are like 10 to 11 K, so I'd like to be comfortable, you know, a little more comfortable in that range. So yeah.
Speaker 1:I'd like to get maybe get a group out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, keep me posted. Yeah for sure, cause usually it's just hard to get people who want to drive that far out just to run for a day, exactly.
Speaker 1:I yeah. Now there's a guy that used to be in the springs, I don't know him super well, sawyer lincoln, who I know lives out there now.
Speaker 2:So like leadville's, got a like growing running contingent getting there. Plus noah williams oh yeah, I sort of know him too. Um, he kind of wasn't he just like a casual runner, like running in the mountains, and then he, from living so high and running so many miles, he just like became a good ultra runner.
Speaker 1:You're talking about Noah?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know his backstory very well, he might be like a good person to have on. Oh, he's 100%, he's a.
Speaker 1:Sportiva teammate of mine and he's like one of the like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, Somebody I have to yeah, I don't really know him, but he knew a guy that I dated. They were friends, friends and like from what I know, he just like started competing and I was like, oh wow, you're a really gifted ultra.
Speaker 1:He's he's extremely gifted. He's, uh, in fact, like it's yeah, there's a he's, he's gonna have a good season for sure he's not gonna do bad?
Speaker 2:no, I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I don't think that he's probably one of the best in the united states at this point. Uh, yeah, no, for sure, for sure, uh. So what else are you planning on racing? So you were looking at I know we got a basin and then we got level half quad rock, possibly this weekend. Have you previewed any of that quad rock course at all, or?
Speaker 2:no, I wanted to go to one of their previews but it was during the time that I was at gorge. Okay, so I have ran some of those trails though last year, so I'm a little bit familiar with how technical they are in the climbing and that sort of thing. Um, but I haven't done like the entire course.
Speaker 1:I've maybe done like 50 okay, so I've never been up there. It's like the horse, horse tooth reservoir or something like that.
Speaker 2:It's pretty it's really pretty area over there.
Speaker 1:Um, I've never done a race that long to be honest 25 miles yeah I almost said I haven't, but I'd actually have done 150k and I ran a marathon once, but that's it did you like quickly go back to the sub ultra world after that?
Speaker 1:yes, yeah, I like tucked my tail between my legs and so I I literally my first trail race was a 50k. I literally led, for I was the sangria cristo 50k. I literally led, for I was the sangria christo 50k. Came out here from florida. This was like I thought I was hot shit. Led for like almost I think like three quarters of the race, rolled my ankle, walked it in and there's like it finished like 12th.
Speaker 1:I'm so upset and then the next uh, and then I went back to florida, ran a 50k like three months later and just dnf'd I was like all right, I want to go back to this like short stuff no, yeah, I don't think this is for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah so no, and it's funny, like when we moved out here, that's like I don't know, I just like signed up for like a 10 miler and tell your ride and then sign up for just a kennel mountain run, like these shorter races, and then just thought that that like made more sense to me and I like hurting really bad for like an hour or two and then like that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's it's easier to commit to to with your training, Cause you can probably power through a 10 miler no matter what. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, you can power through it and I feel like I can recover, just like you said earlier, like if I ran a hundred miles like I'm, I'm, I'm dead for like a month, you know know, or two weeks or whatever. But if I run, you know a really like for this past week, for that, for instance, this past weekend I ran like a really hard race effort just to like kind of see where things at we're out. On saturday started with the incline I just powered through. Um, you know, I just wanted to see where things were at and like I'm still like a little sore from like the weekend but like I feel pretty good for tomorrow I'm ready to go run like if ran an ultra.
Speaker 1:I don't think I could do that, you know, or recover that quick.
Speaker 2:So yeah, because you're probably like me, where we just really like training. Yeah. It's like if I can't train, I'm just going to be sad for like a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Are you one of those people Like I love the process.
Speaker 2:The process is everything to me. Yeah, definitely. I think Strava is such a good tool in that sense, even though I make fun of it a lot.
Speaker 1:But to look at your efforts from like a year ago or something and compare them and see where you're at is really helpful yeah, yeah, one of the things I'm going to start doing, and I've been doing, is um, like before, either like incorporated into the hard effort, or before I'm going to do the hard effort, I'd like try to pr the incline and I just try to try to do this every year and see, like, where are we like, where are things at? Are we fitter than we were last year or are we subpar? You know, I'm kind of judge myself based off of that and that's something like I've been starting to kind of like dabble and throw in. So I'll probably do that, probably like the week before a race or something like that. You know who I picked it up from, like. So one of the things wombsley wanted to do before utmb he didn't actually do it, but he's gonna do it for western states this year is he was gonna go run the um.
Speaker 1:Uh, the mont blanc vk course probably set the course record, but he was gonna do it anyway before because the vk is, like you know, similar to the incline, where it's really short, short, and sweet power right and it's just uphill. So you're, you know, you don't have to run the downhill, um, you can, you know, kind of just gently walk down if you go on a hard effort. So it's kind of just a good test of fitness to see where things were at. But anyway, same thing with him he's going to be doing. He signed up for the broken arrow vk the week before western states and that's a power move right there.
Speaker 2:So that's why I was like, yeah, yeah, I think that's kind of smart too yeah the incline makes me mad, though, too, because I was doing it like every week or every other week for a brief period this past year, and I haven't gotten any prs lately, and sometimes you feel like that this is it, this is the one yeah that was fast. And then you look at your time and you're like fuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's hard Like I. You know what I did Like I the last few times I've. You know, the last time I did PR, I took a buddy out with me as a rabbit.
Speaker 2:That's a great. I think that helps a lot.
Speaker 1:I you know I didn't need them for anything other than the steep section, cause, like I've I'm not very tall, like I've got pretty short legs and the steeps fuck me up, like it is so hard to like once you're gassed a little bit to get those legs. I don't know how Zach Miller does it, cause he's my height and like he's got like a 22, 23 minute incline. I'm like how do you do that? My buddy brad and I had him like kind of um, like be a rabbit for a little bit because you can run just about everything until you hit the steep. So do you hit the like the first bailout?
Speaker 2:really in a lot of ways, yeah, and then it just becomes strategy. More so yeah, but yeah, no, that's a great. I think I've always ran prs with other people yeah, yeah, also, yeah but it's kind of it is a disadvantage, like some people are just really good at the incline. Yes, I okay. So it's kind of it is a disadvantage, like some people are just really good at the incline yes, I, okay, so it's not necessarily a test of fitness.
Speaker 1:Like I will be the first one to preface that Cause. Like I have friends that are like I'm a better runner than like 100%. If this is a race, I'm going to beat you, like that's just the way it works. But like they'll kick my ass on the incline and I'm sitting here like scratching my head. Like I have larger legs, like larger muscle groups I know I'm fitter. Like what is the disconnect here? And the only thing I can think of is like I just I have issues on those like really, really steep sections where I just cannot.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's like yeah, I'm a midget, I don't know. I had problems with those too, I'm not very tall, I'm like five, six, but I used to like bear crawl them and I realized this is probably the slowest way to get through this. Yes, yes Even though it's the most comfortable at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's always like trying different methods, it is.
Speaker 1:It's very tricky and you know what One of the things like I found is so to like kind of mentally disconnect. If I'll do a lot of times like my weekly inclines I'll do after work, so like two or three in the afternoon, especially this time of the year when it's starting to get hot, and I'll do them specifically like in the heat, where I know I'm not going to PR, I'm like okay, this is just, this is like we can focus on different sections here, like I can like take it really easy until I get to the steeps, hammer the steeps and then, like kind of use that to so for like when I get like a nice cool morning and I'm like okay, like we could do this, like let's see where things are at.
Speaker 2:This is PR weather. This is PR Saturday PR weather.
Speaker 1:Exactly. It's not that hard, it's not that easy to come by.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:Especially now that it's, you know, summer, almost hopefully.
Speaker 2:Don, I'm not ready really. You're not a summer person. I think running it's probably just from being from the midwest, but like running in the sun at 6 000 plus feet here feels so hot to me yeah like even when it's above, I'd say like in the 70s here just feels a lot hotter because of elevation and uv exposure I totally agree.
Speaker 1:I mean, I grew up in florida and yeah, it's way hotter here, like in my opinion, like it's a different kind of yeah, it's way worse.
Speaker 2:Um, like humidity I can deal with for the most part, um, but here that heat you just dehydrate so much faster, you know kills your efforts I get slower in the summer for sure, like if I'm running later in the day 100 you almost have to take more naps, and a lot of times after long runs you're just dead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you don't do anything the rest of the day really yeah, yeah, I work from home, so a lot of times I will. I will be laying down with my computer. Yeah, I do my best to do multitasking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm always jealous of runners who work from home because I think that would be so nice. Like weather-wise, you can kind of pick what time sometimes you get to run. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's got its ups and downs. Like the social component sucks, you know cause you don't like we both work from home, so like we have, to like take separate areas of the house and like like we're the only people we see each other all day.
Speaker 1:Like it's. It gets kind of like funny, like I have to. We have to stand up each other's way. But other than that, like the the schedule part is amazing, you know, especially if nothing's going on, like I stuck out for an hour or two and be able to kind of get whatever I need to get done and come back and you know, do laundry, clean up that sort of thing. It is nice, it's 100%. Uh lucky, I'm very lucky.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm jealous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so all right so what else I'm trying to think, what else we can dive into before we get into the crazy questions.
Speaker 2:I guess we were talking about 2024 schedule.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I'm doing Pike's Marathon.
Speaker 1:Are you really yeah, nice.
Speaker 2:First year doing it. Have you done the Ascent? I have not, I have not.
Speaker 1:It's a difficult question mark for me the switchbacks above Bar Camp kind of threw me off like they should be runnable. But I don't know, it's like once I hit that 11,000 foot barrier like I, I kind of struggle a little bit sometimes.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I've kind of been always nervous about signing up for it too, because it just feels like much more of a commitment than like a regular trail marathon or a road marathon, because it's so much elevation gain.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, it's, the demands are crazy. I'm glad you're doing the marathon, cause I feel like the ascent is cool, but I think the marathon intrigues me a little bit more, just to kind of see like, where, where am I as far as like, yeah, I can get to the top, but can, how? How fast is it going to take me to get down?
Speaker 2:Like um, and just much harder. You know, I was curious too, like I've been talking to friends about this, but I know that we keep beating ascent times, marathon times, uh, for pike's peak, but also like going down bar lately, like you know how that big boulder just came across and I think there's other aspects of it, like erosion and things like that oh, it's changed entirely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's completely changed.
Speaker 2:So to me I look at all my times like coming down from bar camp or something, for example, and they're slower yeah, so I just wonder how can pike speak marathon times not consistently be slower?
Speaker 1:and they probably will, I mean unless we use dynamite on the boulder, you know yeah, that would be the.
Speaker 2:I think that'd be the best thing to do. I don't know how expensive that is, but I'm listen, I'm lobbying for it.
Speaker 1:This is the second podcast I've talked about using dynamite on the boulder maybe we'll just diy we'll do it, we'll figure it out well, they're gonna have to make a decision soon because bartrell mountain race is coming up in july and like that's the first, like a situation where people are to be because you've seen it like you gotta like kind of maneuver, like it's gonna cost you five or ten seconds.
Speaker 1:So and if you're like not an elite runner, and if you're just some schmo trying to get around the like, you could very easily fall um yeah, more of a liability exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:So I'm very curious to see what they do. I personally think they, you know, I don't know, I'm a little worried about that whole like lower bar section. Like if we get another like like so, for instance, last year when we had all the bad rains, if we get the same thing this year, like, I wouldn't be surprised if even close it like, close it for like trail repair, because it's so, it's like held together by sticks and stones.
Speaker 2:At this point you know, I almost wish they would and just do some work on it yeah we'll see, for like my own ego, so I can feel fast on it now you're gonna crush it.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to see um. You know it's a lot of those three two ones that's what brian whiffield told me. Like those the three two ones, like go down three miles up three miles down, two up one, whatever. That whole thing, um off the summit and then like I'd have to get a little more into his brain to see like what, because he's obviously like an insanely hard worker but like to see what he did for the ascent. But yeah, it's a question mark. I want to answer at some point in time, but I don't not this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I also feel like when you do local races it's a bit of a predicament because, a you don't really want to pay for something you could do any day of the week and, b, it's sort of more like anyone can look at your results, you tell people you're doing them. It's a little bit more transparent because people know you and it's your town, so I don't know how I feel about it For sure.
Speaker 1:Now, I think you picked a good year too. I don't mean this in a sandbaggy kind of I think you picked a good year too. I think it's. I mean, I don't mean this in like a sandbaggy kind of way, but like this is a good year to stand out, because it's not a Golden Trail Series race Like the Golden Trail Series is not happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so your probability of actually like, of placing like, much higher. I don't know, this is the year. I probably should have done it. Um, yeah, because as soon as it comes back to golden trail, like, automatically it's, you know, my spot goes down 50, 100 places yeah, that's a pretty big deal but now I'm excited for uh for that. So that's is that a week after uh, is it?
Speaker 2:it might be two weeks after, yeah, after cirque. I kind of contemplated that, but I think it's smart.
Speaker 1:I think it's, unless you go like too hard but like I think it's really smart because you're above your altitude the entire time. That's a high up race.
Speaker 2:So that's true. That's a good point. As long as you like, don't tear yourself up too much on the downhills and pikesikes is like predominantly.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's a runner's race, Like you running 90% of that course anyway until you hit tree line, for the most part, I would imagine. So I think it translates probably pretty well for your training.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope so. I feel like when you live around here, it's sort of like a you should do it once.
Speaker 1:Yeah, know, oh, for sure, for sure, I'm gonna have christina on and I think, next week oh cool so, yeah, I don't know her super well, so I'm excited to get to talk to her and, you know, learn about her. Uh, she's, I think, one at what? Three years now, something like that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, she's dominated for sure um.
Speaker 1:She's good friends with my friend dan vega yeah, I follow dan dan's like a. He's a legend he is.
Speaker 2:He's definitely like the local legend. Yeah, yeah, he's like okay.
Speaker 1:So actually I have some questions about I he's someone like I I would actually love to have on the podcast because, like he's like this colorado springs dude where, like you, can run anywhere in the springs and you'll dan vegas like segment will pop up yeah, bandega's, uh, triple sec, blah, blah blah.
Speaker 2:Dollar sign, dollar sign hidden super climb.
Speaker 1:I'm like what the fuck is this? This is amazing. Do you know where those came from? Like, did he just like create them and like? Or was this like part of something that he like like? What is that?
Speaker 2:he just creates them all the time, like you'll go on a run with him and then all of a sudden like a new segment will pop up like van degas, three bears to the woods, triple dollar sign explanation point. And then you're like, oh, did you just like create that on the run that we were in the only one who does this. That's amazing.
Speaker 1:But it's cool, he has so many segments oh, like he's, he's a colorado spring staple like 100 so and he knows like every trail. Yeah and everybody like I feel like everyone knows who he is for sure and he's super nice yeah, yeah, I've only um, I don't think I've ever talked to him. I we'd follow each other on instagram like mutual followers, but like I never we'll get him on yeah he's like someone I feel like I gotta, I gotta chat. He's got some stout times.
Speaker 2:The dude is like I don't think he's super young either right uh, he's like 55 okay, so he's not young, but he's pretty fast yeah no, he's still crushing it, even like master's categories for things he does really well.
Speaker 1:Um, he still does workouts with people and he does workouts with me sometimes that's amazing uh, he's just an anomaly yeah, it's total, total, freak it just stays really fit, it's great. Listen, if I can, I'm 33. So by the time I I can only hope to be that fast when I'm 55.
Speaker 2:I know, I think that too, like I just hope to still be running and not be like broken yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I feel the same way. I had a buddy on yesterday we were talking about. He's a PT and we were talking about talking about like sacral stress fractures and he like freaked me out. I'm like we're like in the middle of the conversation and I'm like he's like talking about this back pain and I'm like kind of describing my back pain. Sometimes I'm like dude, am I broken? After the podcast he goes. Dude, I think I freaked you out a little bit. I was like, yeah, you did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Like. I spent most of last year being like a little bit injured and that's what sucks the most is when you see all your friends on strava running with your other friends and you're just like at home, like icing yeah, oh yeah, on your stationary bike. It's the worst it's the worst.
Speaker 1:I had like some freak uh, like I had like a vestibular neuropathy in the off season, like from an inner ear infection, like fried, like a nerve to go that goes to my brain and controls balance so like I was like going up and down blotch and like falling all over the place like what's wrong. I was having some serious like balance issues for like three months and I got it fixed eventually, but like, uh, yeah, I was like dude, I'm I'm fried for life, like this is over.
Speaker 2:My running career is done.
Speaker 1:Fortunately, I came back knock on wood. This is not wood, but it came back from the dead, so we'll see How'd they fix it, or like what'd they do.
Speaker 2:Oh kind of wild.
Speaker 1:So I, first of all I went to like my primary and he was like, oh, you're going to be fine, just leave falling over, like like this is a little weird. So I finally went to a specialist, like an ENT specialist, and she put these like funky goggles on my eyes. She was like tracking my like field of vision and like she was noticing like my right eye wasn't tracking correctly. And she's like okay, so that's coordinates to your left, middle or inner ear. She goes, well, you know, and she looks at and into it and she was like, well, it looks like you. Um, well, I'm sorry, sure she's like you probably just had an inner ear infection. Didn't know you had it because I didn't know I had it, and rather than have any symptoms, like sometimes I guess it just like attacks the nerve and it just like attacked the nerve in my brain that goes to balance, which is like a freak thing. I'm like how do I keep from this ever happening again? And like.
Speaker 2:What are the odds of it attacking that nerve?
Speaker 1:right and she gives me, she gave me like for like, um, probably two months I had like this I taped them all over this room like these uh, like, uh letters. They're like it was like a wood cardboard thing with like letters and numbers on it and like I'd have to like, do all these eye exercises to like, re, like, calibrate my, called my gaze stabilization.
Speaker 2:It's fucking weird that's yeah, that's super scary too, like being your age and having something like that happen to you, because I'm sure you don't know no, you're like what if I?
Speaker 1:have a neurological or neuromuscular disorder and this is gonna be the rest of my life I keep telling rose I was like yo, I think I have a brain tumor, like what is wrong. I was freaking out and um, because I discovered it like it was like two days before christmas.
Speaker 1:We were running up to bar camp and we're on the w's and like I just like start falling over, running uphill okay, this is weird. And then, like a couple days later I started trying to run, um, I like went to blodger it and I was trying to do blodger it and like it was just wasn't happening, like it was like my you know. The other thing too that was really wild is that it was definitely tracking with my like my eyes were fucked up because, like my eyes would almost get strained like you're staring at a screen for too long. My eyes would be super bloodshot and like like just crazy, because they were trying to like main. I guess like that has something to do with like maintaining your balance a lot I have no idea um, but yeah, it was wild that is especially.
Speaker 2:You know how they say that your eyesight's supposed to get better, supposedly from things like trail running. Yeah. Because you're always looking at moving objects and that sort of thing. So I bet like having the opposite happen would be very scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll tell you what. Like it's crazy Like I started using these, like I don't have them on right now, but I have in front of me the blue light glasses and like I'm just very careful about like staring, very careful about like staring. Like I never stare at my phone anymore and like anything that has blue light, I'm like super careful with it, not strain my eyes. I feel like my vision's gotten better, like that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's like something I should work on in general I sit there and like, just like, yeah, I don't think about it at all I'm sure we don't think about until we have issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah all right.
Speaker 1:So we're at an hour, so I'm gonna get into some crazy questions really quick all right so what's your take? What's your take on the aliens?
Speaker 2:on the aliens, I think they exist I think so too um, I don't, you know, I feel like you can go so many different directions and people. I've had people argue with a lot more evidence and like compound research than I have in my brain, but there's just too many examples of things that have happened throughout history to demonstrate that there isn't something else out there for sure to piggyback on that.
Speaker 1:Do you think we went to the moon?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I was just listening to some podcast.
Speaker 1:Joe Rogan yeah, dude, okay, I'm so happy, I was just listening to little parts of that. So it blew my mind and I'm not going to lie to you. I mean, maybe I'm very little too easily convinced of things, but I walked away from that conversation and was like holy shit, did we not go to the moon?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it made me think a little bit too, because Joe Rogan's arguing with him too, but at the same time is like really hearing him out and the things he says does make sense, like the radiation belts, the amount of fuel they took, like the fact that they killed that, the guy who was supposed to be Neil Armstrong, like the pre-guy who was supposed to be Neil Armstrong they killed off. There's like so many different things.
Speaker 2:I was like like holy shit, like. And he said you know that they're just using like human models, uh, right now, because of those reasons. So then I'm like I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, that's. The other thing is like the last four or five presidents have all said we're gonna go to the moon. No, we never went to the moon. It's kind of weird, you know, and you think about it like wait a second, why didn't we? Why didn't we do this?
Speaker 2:it's so easy, it's right there, you know you can like, and we're we're becoming more and more hyper aware that we're probably being lied to a lot in the media, so I think it isist officially so I like, literally, I'm like all right, we'll go to some normal questions before we want to end out.
Speaker 1:Um, who is your sub ultra mountain running goat?
Speaker 2:oh, um, you know, to be honest, I really don't know a ton of people higher in the sport, like most of the people I run with, reference all these people, and I'm like, oh yeah, I think I've heard of that person, like I kind of know who they are other than like Courtney DeWalter and like really big names. So I still kind of like worship OCR people.
Speaker 1:Okay, who's your OCR goat?
Speaker 2:Probably Lindsay Webster. I've met her a few times and she's just like very kind and she's probably the greatest of all time in terms of OCR, because she's just won so many different races and world championships and she's just like so down to earth and not like more humble. I always am very attracted to humble people, you know in general.
Speaker 1:I was excited to see her kind of cross over last year and do some of the sky racing stuff. Like I know she was at meet the minotaur and like a few other ones and like she she did great. I mean she's a phenomenal athlete.
Speaker 2:So yeah, she does really well with that. She doesn't like have to be number one, she's like finding new challenges. You know, and she just did an eight-hour race like four months pregnant what? Pregnant right now yeah, an obstacle course race and you can't even really tell she's pregnant like I saw some clips of it and she didn't do as well as she normally would do.
Speaker 1:I want to say she got like sixth or something dude, that kid is gonna be like the freak athlete of the world man, like like yeah, yeah I'm serious like those two. Those two are some of the best athletes, like.
Speaker 2:I mean like just all around some of the best athletes like yeah, and they both started out in mountain biking um and skiing, so it's like they have all different backgrounds. Yeah, and they were like competitive in so many different things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I saw he like biked Leadville a few years ago and had like a really stout like result. I was like dude, you could do everything.
Speaker 2:I think I looked at his post too and he was like not stoked, yeah, and I was just like I don't know, but you're also like so many other things, like you don't have to be a professional mountain biker, you know, like this is so crazy, Like because a lot of people don't have range like that you know.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting how, like some people just can have all of the range. Like you can run a hundred miles and be good at that. He can also like be really good at OCR, but also like get top 20 at Leadville and the mountain biking race Like what the hell yeah, those people are like awesome to me because I'm like how do you even have time?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, how do you even have time to be on a mountain bike. I don't know right, right yeah I don't have time.
Speaker 1:Who inspires you?
Speaker 2:who inspires me um.
Speaker 1:Can this be like anyone could be anybody sports related doesn't have to be sports could be, could be parents, could be anybody yeah, I was actually gonna say my parents.
Speaker 2:Okay, do you ever feel? I don't know how you feel about your parents, but as I'm getting older, I've realized that they're much more selfless people than I am. Yeah, you kind of realize, like, how you spend your time is you're spending your time making yourself better and they spent most of their time making you're spending your time making yourself better and they spent most of their time making you better yeah so it does sort of feel bad but no, you're right, my parents don't understand me like they like.
Speaker 1:I think they do, but they don't like just because like they're they're meant like it's just, I don't know. I think they look at me sometimes and kind of scratch their head because, like I'm in on this constant pursuit of this like one objective to try and continue to get better and better and better and improvement, running right totally and like I don't know, like that's, it takes a very interesting. Like you, you understand it because you're that way right like not a lot of people get that.
Speaker 2:I don't know they're like why aren't you doing other things like going back to school or having children, or like what normal people do?
Speaker 1:yeah and they yeah, they don't understand why you'd spend the majority of your free time on that yeah, interesting, right, but you know, to the point where it's like the selflessness, like damn, they suck, like I feel, like you know yeah, like I don't deserve them, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I hope to be almost as good as them one day hell yeah, it's something good to strive to well on that thought.
Speaker 1:Let's uh, let's close up. Let's uh, let's get some plugs going. What's your uh instagram handle so we can get you some followers?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, it's my last name, so burgess la the first two letters. My first name. Uh, that's my instagram handle. Um, yeah, find me on facebook. I don't have anything else. Refuse to have other forms of social media other than strava that's right.
Speaker 1:Well, hey, thanks for so much for coming on yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. What'd you guys think I told you this was a great episode? I want to thank Lacey so much for coming on the podcast. Before you guys get going, go ahead and hop on Instagram and give Lacey a follow. Her Instagram is her last name, burgess, so B-O-U-R-G-O-I-S and just L-A, so her first two letters of her name, so Lacey Burgoy. Go ahead and give her a follow of her. Uh, her name, so Lacey Burgoy. Go ahead and give her a follow. Um.
Speaker 1:Last but not least, if you guys enjoyed this episode, um, please go ahead and go ahead and hop on Spotify or Apple wherever you gave this, listen to and give us a rating and a review. I would really appreciate that. Um, like I said, we want to go ahead and get this podcast out to as many people as possible, because we've been covering the sub ultra scene. Um, and with that, the more ratings and reviews we have good, bad or ugly um the more. Well, hopefully not ugly um, hopefully good, but whatever um, the more we have, the more this podcast can get out to, uh, the masses and you guys can go ahead and hopefully get some value from it. So, yeah, um, go ahead and give us some love um other than that until the next. Thank you guys. So much the Steep Stuff Podcast. Thank you.