The Steep Stuff Podcast
Andy Wacker | Building the Future of the Sub-Ultra Scene
Ever wondered how an athlete from a small golf town in North Carolina could conquer the world of trail running? Join us as we welcome the godfather of sub-ultra trail running, Andy Wacker, who shares his transformational journey from his hometown of Pinehurst to the professional trail running circuits. Hear about Andy’s early love for nature and bushwhacking, his competitive high school career, and his time running for the University of Colorado in Boulder. Gain insider knowledge on Andy’s ongoing projects, including the Trail Team, and his exciting plans for the 2023 and 2024 seasons.
We dig into the hurdles trail runners face when entering elite races, delving into Andy’s personal experiences and the essential mindset shift required to overcome these challenges. From the necessity of a UTMB index score to the financial burdens of self-funding trips to world championships, Andy’s journey is a treasure trove of inspiration and practical advice. Learn about the creation and impact of the Trail Team, an organization designed to nurture emerging trail running talents, and hear the compelling story of Christian Allen, proving the untapped potential in under-the-radar athletes.
Building a supportive community is at the core of trail running's evolution in the U.S., and Andy takes us through the inception and structure of the Trail Team. Discover how avoiding corporate sponsorships allows young athletes to receive genuine mentorship and the freedom to pursue races aligning with their personal goals. From the unique experiences at training camps in Rocky Mountain National Park to tales of overcoming physical and mental challenges in international competitions, Andy’s stories are a blend of resilience, community, and the relentless pursuit of passion. Don’t miss out on this enriching conversation with one of trail running’s most influential figures!
Ever wondered how an athlete from a small golf town in North Carolina could conquer the world of trail running? Join us as we welcome the godfather of sub-ultra trail running, Andy Wacker, who shares his transformational journey from his hometown of Pinehurst to the professional trail running circuits. Hear about Andy’s early love for nature and bushwhacking, his competitive high school career, and his time running for the University of Colorado in Boulder. Gain insider knowledge on Andy’s ongoing projects, including the Trail Team, and his exciting plans for the 2023 and 2024 seasons.
We dig into the hurdles trail runners face when entering elite races, delving into Andy’s personal experiences and the essential mindset shift required to overcome these challenges. From the necessity of a UTMB index score to the financial burdens of self-funding trips to world championships, Andy’s journey is a treasure trove of inspiration and practical advice. Learn about the creation and impact of the Trail Team, an organization designed to nurture emerging trail running talents, and hear the compelling story of Christian Allen, proving the untapped potential in under-the-radar athletes.
Building a supportive community is at the core of trail running's evolution in the U.S., and Andy takes us through the inception and structure of the Trail Team. Discover how avoiding corporate sponsorships allows young athletes to receive genuine mentorship and the freedom to pursue races aligning with their personal goals. From the unique experiences at training camps in Rocky Mountain National Park to tales of overcoming physical and mental challenges in international competitions, Andy’s stories are a blend of resilience, community, and the relentless pursuit of passion. Don’t miss out on this enriching conversation with one of trail running’s most influential figures!
Hey guys, welcome back to the steep stuff podcast. I'm your host, james Lauriello, and today, once again, we have another banger of an episode. The godfather of sub ultra himself, mr Andy Wacker, joins us on the pod to talk about all kinds of things he's got going on. We chatted about Andy's background and how he got into trail running, where he's from. We also talked about the project he's been working on for several years now in the trail team, um. All kinds of fun conversations, and we even talked about his 2023 and 2024 seasons. A lot of fun. I want to thank Andy personally for coming on the pod. This is a great episode and a lot of fun. I hope you guys enjoy this one Without further ado. The Steep Stuff Podcast. Mr Andy Wacker, it's time. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, we are live. All right, dude, we're recorded. Now, here we go. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live with Mr Andy Wacker.
Speaker 2:Andy, what's going on, dude? Hey, yeah, just a beautiful day here in Boulder and just psyched to talk to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, thanks for coming out. It's. Yeah, it's the first time I'm up in Boulder. It's the second time I've lived in Colorado for four years. It's actually the second time I've only been in Boulder, which is kind of wild. So I'm going to do a get up on green mountain after this.
Speaker 2:Oh, good yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a long traverse. Funny. It's funny Cause it's always like um, like a lot of years. I, you know, and I like have to be kind of intentional about it because, it's a hundred miles and uh uh distance away, but it seems like you have to actually try, yeah no, it's true, Definitely true.
Speaker 1:Well, dude, thanks for coming on. Um, obviously, I feel like you don't really need an introduction. You're probably like one of the biggest, one of the biggest names I've had on the pod so far. You're, I feel like you've done so much for this sport of sub ultra. But for those who don't know who you are, um, maybe introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your background.
Speaker 2:Sure, um, I'm Andy Wacker. I am a pro trail runner and I've been doing this for about um a decade. It's funny when I think about it recently that, um, it's gone by fast. Currently run for Solomon. Um, I ran for the university of Colorado from 2007 to 2012. Um, and kind of right after college just got into all sorts of running. But yeah, I've been running trails and roads professionally since then and kind of amongst a million other things.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, man, it's crazy, and you've been. You've been on the trail since what like 2013, something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 2013 was my first mountain. I did the U S mountain running champs, so I'll count that one as the first one, I think that's wild dude.
Speaker 1:Uh, that's crazy. What? What got you into running Like where, where are you originally from?
Speaker 2:I grew up in North Carolina and it's funny, cause I grew up in this town called Pinehurst, which is like not a running town. It was basically the average age was like 80 years old, and it was a lot of retirees from like New York state who just wanted some warmer, warmer weather. And my hometown had, like I don't know, probably like a hundred golf courses, so it's really famous for golfing, and so I was kind of the weird person who I think I just really loved the nature. It's like, uh, there's a lot of like woods and those kinds of things in the town, but not that many trails, unfortunately. So, um, I was just like climbing trees and bushwhacking around and um, yeah, I think I found my love for for the trails and running kind of through that nature.
Speaker 1:Wow, it's funny you say that about North Carolina. I was actually just out there for the first time last summer to do uh, went to run quest, quest for the crest, and it's funny, dude, that area is unique because I was expecting, like the area around Mount Mitchell, like outside of Asheville, to be like kind of a quaint little mountain town and that's not the case. It's like it's like it's basically golf courses and retirement areas, like the entire thing, which is kind of funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a diverse state. There's like lots of cool stuff there's mountains, there's beach, so yeah, um, it's got a lot. Yeah, it's got a lot, so, but, uh, yeah, I wish there was more trails. That's one, one complaint, maybe that's fair, that's fair.
Speaker 1:So help me connect the dots then. So you must have had like a crazy successful career in high school, then running, to be able to run a boulder.
Speaker 2:You see, boulder, correct yeah, kind of I'd say, um, man, I always feel like I'm okay. So for, like, footlocker footlocker was the thing trying to make cross country footlocker nationals when I was in high school, um, and I ran footlocker probably every year of high school, so four years in a Um, and my best finish was 11th and they took 10. And I feel like that was kind of that's kind of like a theme, um, and I'll take that Cause I think it's, it's nice being the best of the worst or the worst of the best, cause it keeps you going. And then maybe that's been a part of my longevity is like feeling unfulfilled but also having enough success to feel, um, like grateful for where I am and what I've done. So, um, that's fair.
Speaker 1:That's fair. I like that. Now, all right, so fast forward. Um, one of the things I did want to preface, and I don't I didn't catch if you said it or not that you were two time all American at UC Boulder, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm cross country twice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, that's incredible. Uh, yeah, yeah, no, no, um. So in 2013 not to bounce all over the place, but 2013 you ran your first trail race. It was the us mountain running champs and did you catch the bug, or were you like no?
Speaker 2:I quit trail running. I hated it seriously. Yeah, I tell this story a lot, but, um, it was great because basically I came in kind of arrogant I I was like, yeah, I ran a Colorado, I'm good runner, um, you know, I'd done some. I just done one of my first. I did the U S 15 K road champs, um, and did pretty well there and I was like, oh yeah, this mountain running thing is going to be like way, like, way weaker than the road scene. That.
Speaker 2:I've been doing and I went there and I just got like beat up by the mountain. It was on this really hard course at um Cranmore in New Hampshire. It was like wet and like 90 degrees and, um, speaking of being the first man out, I missed making the world team by one place. They took six people and I was seventh and I was like such a sore loser. I was like this is horrible and too hard and so I gave up um, but I think the redemption story is nice because it took I took a year and I was like I'm not gonna run trails, I'm just gonna keep running roads. So much easier.
Speaker 2:Um, and a year later, in 2014, I um had been running a lot of road races with this guy, jeffrey Eggleston, who's like a two 10 marathoner, super, super fast, fast guy, kind of a big mentor for me in my life.
Speaker 2:Um, and it was really funny because he was like, oh, do you want to do this? Like hill workout? And we just raced rock and roll um san diego, like literally the day before maybe it was the same day like he was like flown back and he picks me like do you want to do a whole workout? And I was like, dude, I'm so tired. No, I don't think I'm ready to do a hill workout for like a while. He's like no, no, no, there's this thing called the mount evans ascent, like we should do it's like next weekend. I was like okay, because whatever you said I would do, and that was, um a road mountain race and that kind of lured me back into the trail scene and I think, with this mentorship and like a year of being a pro runner and having like um, I kind of grew up and I was like really ready for it.
Speaker 1:And I think so.
Speaker 2:That was really cool to come back to the trails and be like super psyched on them and and uh, have grown up and gotten over the this is hard phase.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no dude, it's so interesting. So one of the things I found out about you I can remember just as I got into the sport. I remember watching like the golden trail series, youtube channels, and I'd see this super fast Nike guy go out blazing fast at these races. Can you help connect the dots then? For basically I guess, how you got to that point in a lot of ways, like I feel like now that you're running the trail team, in a lot of ways you're helping a lot of these athletes and this is a very loaded question but you're helping one of these athletes kind of get to that next level as they come out of the NCAA and and start to look around and find sponsorships. How was it like navigating that for you in a lot of ways? Like trying to find sponsorships and get to these races and do all these things?
Speaker 2:It was really hard, that's the answer and I think that's why I'm um passionate about helping people now. So, like kind of speaking to your point, so there's an athlete on the trail team this year and she's trying to run a race called ETC.
Speaker 2:And it's the 16K race at UTMB. It should be easy to get into relatively. You're like, okay, it's not UTMB, it's not CCC, it's not OCC, shouldn't be as many rules and regulations, all these things, and she can't even get in the race. Really, and um, it's because you have to have a utmb index score and she's like fresh out of college.
Speaker 2:so I think um, that is still the story, unfortunately is like for, let's just say, for race entry and kind of like making a name for yourself. In the sport, there's definitely this like barrier to entry. Um, that's hard, because I think you have to like bet on yourself. You have to like fly yourself to Europe, do a race and be like good enough to show that you're good enough to get in the next race. Um, and so, for me, my entry, which was really lucky, was I made um the world mountain running long distance championships, which, since they've changed the name now it's just like the I think they call it short trail. It's 40 K marathon length um world championships, and that was in Zermatt, switzerland, in 2015. Um, and I essentially just like bought my ticket to Europe. I was like broke at the time so I could barely afford getting over there and um just was like I'm going to, I'm going to do this.
Speaker 1:Like I'm ready on yourself yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um, I did really well in that race. I ended up getting second and um. Fun fact it was uh, it was a really funny podium Cause it was um the. The guy who won was Tommaso Pacino, second place was Andy Wacker and third place was francesco poopy so uh vicino wacker poopy podium.
Speaker 2:It's quite the podium yeah, um, but yeah, so I bet on myself, did well in that race and like just from that race, I remember I got invited to jungfrau marathon, which is another kind of like famous swiss race, so like I had to do that and I think that's still the case, even if you have like advocates for you. So bet on yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it was really fun and I kind of draw almost a little bit of a parallel, like last year, with seeing Christian Allen go out there and do all these like uphill races and like I mean not to call you an amazing talent scout, but I think you're an amazing talent scout like finding people like that and you, anna gibson and and like just that first class of the trail team just like blew me away with so many stellar athletes, so pretty cool yeah, I think, um, just to mention that really quickly, like it's funny because it worked, I think it wasn't.
Speaker 2:like I can't say I'm a talent scout. I think that the fact is like if you're an athlete, you know when you race people or if you're around them, like what is good and what's good performance and um, yeah, like for Christian, for example, like it's just funny, cause on paper it's like, yeah, he's a I think he was a 20, 30, roughly 10 K guy, which in the NCAA nowadays it's like actually surprisingly insane, but it's not that great. Like it wouldn't, it wouldn't get you to nationals, it wouldn't.
Speaker 2:you know, he's not like no one in the track world's looking at that person, yeah, who runs 28, 30, look, they're looking for 27 flat guys, wow, and so that, plus, I knew he, you know, lives in salt lake city area and like had run a cirque series race before, I was like I think this guy will be good and like, oh my gosh, we were like you know I couldn't have guessed.
Speaker 2:Like you know, you're like I think there's like some formula where you're like, okay, these things make sense. And then, uh, it was cool to see how well it worked for some people, and of course, that's not going to be the case for everyone. But, yeah, you got to bet on people. And it's cool when you do bet on people and they, um, you know, they show up because maybe they wouldn't have had that opportunity otherwise.
Speaker 1:So yeah, well, you rolled the dice and it definitely. Man, I said like what an incredible, what an incredible first season for a lot of these people. Let's get into that a little bit. Let's talk about the trail team, what the trail team is. For those of you that don't know, we kind of we'll break it down from there.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, the trail team's an organization I started in late 2022. And it really just is a gosh. It's a lot of things right now, but, um, the main thing, it started as is like my vision of how can we develop elite trail running in the us, and specifically for sub ultra, and so the idea is like we have thousands of good runners in the ncaa that's my background, that's where I came from and, um, how can we get them to be world champions? Um, and it was super funny, cause I'm gonna go on a tangent here, but, like you know, I did a bunch of research cause I was like this is the idea, and I was like Joe gray. I called him up. I was like Joe, how?
Speaker 1:did you get into?
Speaker 2:trail running and he's like, oh, I don't know. Like this guy was just like, do you want to run this race? And I said yes, and so I was like, so, literally some some random guy like just asked him about it when he was 23 years old and just graduated Oak state and was a steepler, and he did it and liked it.
Speaker 1:You know, like all of these things wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like all these things had to align. It wasn't like, you know, the U? S was like who's our next trail runner? Let's like, get them's no sponsors. There's no like, there's no pressure from anyone useful, just like literally one, one person in his life helped. Uh, kind of give us the the greatest probably the goat, yeah easily the goat for sub ultra in the us. Um yeah, so I'm going on a tangent here, but I was like we need to like get more organized like who's going to be the next?
Speaker 2:jim wamsley and court DeWalter and Joe Gray. Like we need to fill those roles and I think we have those people. We just need to define them and support them. So that's kind of the start of the trail team.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Now the trail team has got a couple of different facets to it. Right, there's the, it's like the elite team, there's like the community team and then there's like more community runs. Can you, can you break those down a little bit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So, yeah, exactly, we're doing a lot of things and this all grew out of that first little spark of like how can we make trail running like better and on the elite level for the U? S? So, yeah, we basically like, found and mentor and help support um six elite athletes. So we did that in 2023. That was our first year, starting in January, picked some athletes. Um, we did that again this year in January 2024.
Speaker 2:Um, so we have an elite team. That's the first piece six athletes, um. And then our second piece is we have a club team and I think the easiest way to explain is, like, our little tagline for that is the 30 best unsponsored trail runners in America. Yeah, so it's maybe people who should have been on the elite team, maybe it's people were giving like way more of a chance, who just wouldn't um, who aren't the best NCAA runners, who maybe are ultra runners right away at um age 20. And they, they know that they're not going to compete at um Stanford in the 10 K or something you know. Yeah, um. So that's that piece. And then the third piece is just start local. So here in in Boulder, colorado, there wasn't a running group for trail and almost almost at nowhere in the world Is there like a good. There's not very many sub ultra training groups anywhere which is kind of crazy, so we started one.
Speaker 1:I almost see. So one of the things I really didn't realize until I started doing my research before our discussion was I was always aware of like Cetus matrix, but I didn't know it was almost like a development team in a lot of ways. So many crazy athletes have come off that as well, so it's like some kind of amazing that this is almost like the. This is the process of it becoming the American equivalent. In a lot of ways it's pretty sweet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we, I researched them too and they're great, uh, great team out of france and definitely, hopefully, a parallel yeah they have some. They probably have more support in a kind of a corporate sponsorship way. But yeah, they have the best athletes coming out and really helping out um france and a lot of european athletes can you speak to that a little bit so like from a corporate sponsorship perspective?
Speaker 1:I know it's like. I know like one of the things you've been pretty vocal of is like not having like one, like a shoe brand, for instance, come in, say like we want to outfit everybody in like I don't know Nike or Solomon shoes or whatever. Um is, what's the reason for why you chose to do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I often say we're the anti-sponsor, Um, and I mean that in the best of ways, because I think we want to make sure that we as a trail team are supporting athletes for the right reasons and doing the things that they're not getting. So, um, I think um long story short is like yes, there's a world where maybe we'll be sponsored in the future, Like maybe in 10 years, it'd be cool to be like the OAC, like on athletic club of like trails and have like support to have 10 athletes be housed and have like real contracts and um real coaching and all those kinds of things in one central location. That'd be cool. But, um, for now, I think that we really shine in doing the things that like young athletes need but don't get from sponsors.
Speaker 2:So, sponsor might give you some money, they might give you some gear, but, um, they don't like mentor you at all, you don't. They don't say like oh, here's the races like that are important, here's why, Um, and with that they also have like a lot of strings attached and we didn't want to have that. We didn't want to be like oh, we want you to do like UTMB because we're like financially invested in it. It's like, no, we want you to like literally do the coolest races that you want to do as an athlete, whether that's the most competitive ones, the most lucrative ones, or just like your hometown race, Um, and I think that's really nice, having that freedom from um, from sponsors, to not have that pressure, Um. So I'm kind of rambling.
Speaker 1:No, no, keep it going. I just letting you go. That's why yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's a lot of pieces to that, but um, yeah, so I think again like why? Why are we the anti-sponsor?
Speaker 2:We're the anti-sponsor, because we care about athletes as a whole human. We really care about people if they're like injured, like we want to. That's a huge part of our sport and it's really hard. So I think we want to like um help support people with that, getting recommendations for um treatment, like showing what I do as an athlete and kind of showing that message.
Speaker 2:Um, another piece that I feel like is really lacking with sponsorship too, in terms of like the big brands, is um media. Yes, it seems crazy, but it's like uh, you need to have a presence and tell your story and I think that's um for me at least, like I, I like following my friends who are runners because I know who they are, and so I think, for us, part of one of our biggest missions is um we're going to mentor, or how we are pushing. Our mission is to mentor, like our elite team, and it's to build their brand through media. So we were we're often like meeting up with it was really cool. We just uh had a big push for media for our, our training camp. That's coming up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I saw that on Instagram. Dude, that's amazing. So I've so much to unpack from this. Um, so the first thing is is you mentioned mentorship, and I say it's like the first, really important thing. Maybe could you talk about some of the athletes that are out there mentoring these younger athletes.
Speaker 2:Yep. So this year we have four mentors um Grayson Murphy, who's been a big part of the trail team since the beginning and she is like what I think of as a mentor because, um, she is an incredible athlete but she's like a super awesome person and she really cares about helping people, so she's willing to like be on a call and like answer all the questions that someone might have. It's like if you're a young athlete coming out of college, you're like do I need an agent? Like what races matter? What distances matter? Like do I need to eat stuff on my run? Do I need to carry like a pack full of water?
Speaker 1:like they just don't know I know it's and it's crazy like these are the questions like people need to know. It just helps bridge that gap so much. And I think grayson is such a great example because she's I mean, she's almost like the prototype in a lot of ways, the one that came out and started doing you know she was, she's on the, but she's also on the track, which is amazing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's like who do you want to be as an athlete in in five years or something? And if you're, you know, a 22 year old woman just graduating college, hopefully it's Grayson, or I think that's for a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's who I would want to be.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so that we have three more people. So the other, uh, mentors are Rachel, to my check, so longtime teammate of mine on other team USAs, um with Grayson also and just super passionate and um kind person.
Speaker 1:It's a great pick. She's on the Merrill team right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just has. Uh, has had a lot of experiences from um college, running through her professional career, so I think she's a great person. Um, next step is Matt Daniels. So, um, he's a buddy of mine. We go way back, but same thing, he's done everything you can imagine. He's broken four in the mile, he has raced on the roads and made the Olympic trials for the marathon, he has raced 100 milers and UTMB. Um, so I think, well, sorry, I think he's raised.
Speaker 1:He's raised UTMB last year and then CCC.
Speaker 2:So he's raised kind of everything you can imagine. So he's got a um, just a vast knowledge of experiences as a pro Um. And then finally, um Chad Hall is our fourth mentor.
Speaker 1:So it's a good one.
Speaker 2:Um, super kind heart and super talented athlete again. Just um, really willing, willing to help and and reach out to people and such a good resource for a lot of young guys hopefully out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, I love it. So one of the things I find really interesting is just because you have this mentorship aspect of it and I feel like from an athlete coming up in the sport and trying to figure out, like okay, I want to get a sponsor, how do, how would I, how do I do this, who do I approach, how do I? And even contracts from that perspective as well, like are you giving them all that types of advice, like know their worth and how to negotiate and do all that, or yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we do a lot, so I feel like um kind of like an agent sometimes but, I just hope that I can share that perspective as someone who's like in it and can say here's what you should be looking for, here's the questions you should be asking. And, um, maybe I feel like, uh, uh, recently, as an older athlete, I'm really like an athlete advocate, so I've been asking a lot of hard questions for better or worse, like as you should, um yeah which is great.
Speaker 2:I'm like you know, I'm reaching out to these brands, being like can you just get this athlete like a free pair of shoes? And maybe that's not my place, you know, and I'll even say that and they'll be like you know, a lot of times they'll say, okay, if I get to stand up, and it's a little bit weird. I think it's better to to have a voice for the athletes and I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:So no, I agree, and I think if anybody used to do it, it's the older guard like you and Joe and guys group of people that are just coming up and it's. It's crazy how much more competitive the sport is getting. Like, I know you're on the broken arrow start list this year. I was literally. I'm doing a preview episode tomorrow. I'm going to start, uh, filming them and um, dude, I was just looking at that start list and I was like oh, my God like everybody who's everybody is going to be at that VK.
Speaker 2:It's wild to see, like, how how much the sport has progressed in the last few years. Yeah, exactly, and I think um broken air is a great example. So it was mammoth. Yeah, um, and and on and on.
Speaker 1:There's so many new ish races like broken air, is not that?
Speaker 2:old, I think, um, they're really just creating that uh wonderful like sub ultra festival, lots of different um events that people can do in the us, and it's really fun to have that.
Speaker 1:So they're doing a great job it's cool one of the things I've heard you say in my research that I did like I've listened to a bunch of podcasts and stuff and you're like, if you build it, they will come. And I'm like, damn that, does that make sense? Especially because I feel like our country is just so ultra centric and I feel like sub ultra mean that's my favorite aspect of the sport obviously a sub ultra. So to see it kind of develop and grow now and start to kind of get legs of its own is just it's amazing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and to that point, I think, um, yeah, when I started thinking about the trail team um, I often tell this story too Um, it was actually Matt Daniels uh was we were talking in the fall of 2022 and he's like, oh, this brand is going to like make like a trail focused group. And I was like, oh, my gosh, great, we've been talking about this for like five years, you know. And then, uh, that fell through, it didn't happen. And that's like the point where I would literally was like all right, I'm like quit my teaching job. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to like stop everything. I'm going to work all night and day to like build that group. That's incredible, dude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you just felt compelled to just go after this, like this needed to happen in the States.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's just funny because it's like it's really nice, I guess, as a I'm 35 and I think I'm 35 years old, and it's just like a lot of times you think about like what leadership means and you hear these things and I remember being like trying to not to overcommit myself as like a younger person, and that's totally fine, like you're at your maximum probably. But I was like not the one volunteering to do X, y, z for free and I was like, oh, I get it. Like nothing's going to happen if someone doesn't just like go all in, like you know it doesn't make sense for anyone to do this because it's not lucrative and it's like that's you know the motivations for, for normal businesses and for uh, for other people it might not make sense for, but I'm like this is my thing, I'm passionate about it, and it doesn't have to be lucrative, it doesn't have to be like um, glorious or something. I'm just gonna do it because it needs to be done and like it's important and you're making.
Speaker 1:I think the thing I love the most is that, like you, it's your way to contribute and give back to the sport. You know, like no doubt you're a first ballot hall of famer, like you're one of the best to ever do it when it comes to the sub ultra scene, for sure, but like that's running and it's like what is my legacy and the legacy you're going to leave is the trail team, which is absolutely incredible. So, yeah, I actually like thank you for that. It's kind of a gift back to the sport.
Speaker 2:So yeah, thank you yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um. Well, man, where do we go from here? We can get into all kinds of stuff. Uh, one of the things you said to me when we sat down for started talking was some of the plans you had for the trail team over the next few weeks, and you guys are going to have not just a summit but kind of like a training camp camp. Is that what you're doing next?
Speaker 2:week. I'm super psyched about it. This is um, our fourth training camp, is what we call it um, but it's kind of yeah, I feel like that's a misnomer, because it's not just about training yeah um, I think again, I keep on bringing up joe, but he makes me think about a lot of things, which is cool.
Speaker 2:Um, I think he has this quote from back in the day where people were like, how do you become really good at trail running? And it's like, oh, you have to be like super fit, no doubt. But then there's like the X factor, the X factor of like how do you translate that fitness onto uphills, onto like rocks and terrain, and so I think maybe that's the answer to our camp. So our camp is like for a lot of reasons, but, um, okay.
Speaker 2:So let's think about our mission. Our mission is to get really good runners and make them better and, like, build that for the U? S. So what are we missing? We're missing, um, athletes having a voice and having media. So we just got like three of the best media people in the country it's insane, um to help us out, which is going to be really cool. Um, we got a really cool location Rocky mountain national park here in Colorado. It's got tons of mountains, it's at high elevation, it's got a beautiful lake to hang out by when you're not running, um, and yeah, and then we're just bringing mentors myself, chad hall, um, et cetera together with our team, with our elite team that's all over the country. So, um, we're going to have five of our six elite people together for once with, uh, with mentors and other people on our club team, or you know, we've had a couple of years of experience and we're just going to go on runs and share that experience with each other.
Speaker 1:It's amazing. Now, one of the things you did last year was you guys also went to Cormier. Are you guys going to do Europe again this year?
Speaker 2:yeah, uh-, huh, yeah, sweet yeah so we did Cormier last year.
Speaker 2:That was really um for a lot of reasons. But yeah, we wanted to do media, we wanted to have that um, you know, bet on yourself, go to Europe and then Europe will believe in you, um kind of that thing. And um, this year we're going to a town called Cron Montana, which is really close to Sierra, as in Sears and all. So we're going to go um do a training camp that will be a little bit bigger than last year's Europe camp. Um, just, uh, just before Sears and all right across the Valley at this really beautiful ski resort.
Speaker 1:So that's amazing. Are you racing series and all this year?
Speaker 2:I'm not, um yeah, so I'm going to be psyched to spectate and kind of be on that part of the sport I'm racing um the Tatra sky race a week later in. Poland and just felt like that was a better move, was to help kind of support all the athletes that week and I'll be pretty busy, and then, uh, um, go to Poland next weekend.
Speaker 1:Super cool man. All right, so let's shift the focus to you then. Um, outside of the trail team. Like you just got back, did you so you? You raced Kobe as well, and did you do the race in China also?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Dude, let's hear it. What'd you, what'd you think Like such an early season golden trail race?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, maybe this is a good time. I feel like I've been trying to share this with people and it's hard to like explain it, so I just need the time to like mull it over. But, honestly, the Asia trip was insanely hard for me. It was like, um, a lot of things leading up to it made it really, really difficult, and I think it's again. It's like this is what mentorship is to me. It's like share this, because we shouldn't just fake like everything's um, oh, it's awesome, I had so much fun, like Asia is beautiful and that's why I went there. It's like, no, it's like way deeper than that. Um, but part of it for me was I'm 35, I'm married and I had a super, super good road season.
Speaker 2:Like January, february crushed it. One rock and roll Las Vegas half marathon ran one of my fastest times in years and the day after the race I realized I had strained my post-it, which is kind of like an ankle shin muscle, and uh, it was so bad I couldn't run without pretty bad pain. Um, and that was pretty frustrating because I just came off of four years of Achilles injury and then I got surgery a year ago, um, and that's been great, and so I was like so psyched in January and February was run a hundred miles a week. Everything's great, um, and that's normal, right, we're like runners and we go through these ups and downs. So, um, I spent basically I think it was four weeks. I didn't run, I just was biking. Oh wow, yeah, it's actually actually. That was hilarious. We have a peloton, so I was doing like, uh, like, um, sassy girl spin classes just destroying people yeah, just going as hard as I could on the peloton.
Speaker 2:Um, and then from there I was like man, I'm just like feeling really vulnerable. I just want to like chill and train and get healthy and for better or worse timing, um, this is the first year as a Solomon athlete. I was invited to go to the Solomon training camp and I was like I got to go.
Speaker 2:This is like a life goal I've been wanting to do is like go to these big, you know, the training camp with the best athletes in the world, who are sponsored by Solomon, like you know, according to Walter, et cetera, um, on and on and on. So many good people there, um, and so, okay, I'm gonna go, even though I'm like barely running, it's like week one back. I'm gonna go to this camp and, uh, I did that and it was like again, like super hard, like physically hard. It was a lot of like extreme amount of vert. It was um, like being away from family for for two weeks.
Speaker 1:It was uh, like just putting myself into, like, um, just feeling like, like, uh, like vulnerable, like you know, like, yeah, I was gonna say, let's unpack that a little bit, cause like and it's interesting, and I think it's very amazing for people to hear that like one of the best sub-vulture athletes in the world, like we'll feel that way, cause everybody feels that way, especially going and you're around all of your peers you know Francois Jared Courtney, all of these peers, you know francois jared courtney, all these people and for you to have like I wouldn't say insecurity, but like do you feel? Feel to feel that way in a lot of ways is just interesting. You know, and I feel like a lot of people can relate, you know oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean yeah, if you're an elite athlete, like everyone's competitive oh yeah and so like knowing that you're going to go into this space where people are going to be like pushing in terms of like physically and on runs, like the speed, the pace, um, when you're not like ready for it, it's pretty hard. And so, um one, you have to be like lose your ego, you know, and just be like. That's where I'm at. You have to be smart and, um, I think that's uh. One thing I have as a as a mentor to younger athletes is like I've gone through a lot of these setbacks and I know, you know, oh, it's okay, like, if someone's like they had a 60K day at the Solomon camp, that's horrible, yeah, and so, which was great, it was great.
Speaker 2:If you're running a hundred miler. They're like we're going to do a point to point 60K. We'll pick you up and we'll put out some aid stations, like in the middle yeah, but if you haven't run in weeks like oh yeah, so I was like no, I'm not running 60k you know like sorry, I've never run more than like 50k. I'm not gonna run 40 miles today, and so that was hard, you know, because you're like feeling a little bit of peer pressure right.
Speaker 1:And how do you say no to that?
Speaker 2:you know, yeah and it seems cool. You're also like, oh, this trail looks amazing and like they're going from the middle of Corsica, this Island of the outside. So, um, yeah, there's. So there's just a lot of pieces of that and I think, um, that was fine. Actually, the athletes, like at the camp were super cool and made a lot of new friends and just like we're really supportive.
Speaker 2:Um, but you know, it's just like again, it's just like a little, it's just hard, like emotionally and mentally hard to go into this and so to get to Asia, like it was kind of the same thing. It was only like um, I flew back from France, was in Colorado for a week. I actually really missed um, which is kind of funny. My training group here, like the trail team Boulder, our training group like just have a ton of young athletes who I'm supporting and who are really positive and so like knowing I had been away from that, I felt like I'd been missing something something and like also they support me in terms of just like really having that culture of positive uh, positivity and like encouragement and like um, yeah, just like a lot of that kind of building each other up.
Speaker 2:So went into asian, was like okay, well, I've run like two weeks not in shape, basically comparatively just went through like um, like super challenging physically, like walking a lot through like the thorn bushes of corsica, which is awesome, but like was tough, it was like boot camp, um, and so I was like oh man, like okay, like here we go, like which sucked, because in my mind for the last months, like I think we do this as athletes, we have goal races and I was like I'm gonna go into asia, so fit yeah like I'm healthy for once and I'm so fit.
Speaker 2:So all of January, all of February, it was like visualizing, like I'm going to go there and be ripping, um, so going in there like broken, I was like, okay, here we go. Um. So it was hard and I think, uh, long story short, it was. I think it was really cool because I went through Kobe. Kobe was like gnarly stairs. It was not the perfect course for me.
Speaker 2:Super technical I had a terrible day. I felt like really weird and I just was like I guess I'm going to finish Like, no matter what, I need to get points on the board. Um, I thought only 30 places got points and I got 31st. So I was like, wow, that was a trudge for nothing, found out.
Speaker 2:Luckily I got some points for the golden trail series I think it was a 50 or something, but um, and then went into china, um, and just to kind of finish the story, but like went to china, was like good, here we go. Like I feel like a whole new person, like I made it through that first one. The pressure's a little bit off. Um, I got some points on the on. For the golden trail series you have to do four races. They score four races, so got one down. Um, you know, can only be positive here. Ran on the course um the first day and was like, oh my gosh, it's amazing. It's like way more runnable which is my style than than Kobe, which was like a lot of like power hiking, and um was so psyched, um, for that course and for that experience. And then the next day I think it had like poured rain and like maybe even snowed overnight. The weather was it's high in the Himalayas. We were like in this town at 10,000 feet, so very volatile weather.
Speaker 2:Um, and we're running the course like preview on the other side of the Valley, like the back half of the course, and with Rachel to my check actually, and we're both just like, oh, no Cause, we're like slopping up this like super muddy Hill, that's really steep, and like you're taking like one step forward and you're sliding back like two steps. Some negative steps, just the treasures. Um, and I was like, oh my gosh, I made it through Kobe, just to like come to China and have to like you know, walk some more, and I was like please.
Speaker 2:I don't want to walk anymore in a race. Um, so it was pretty low. I was like very, um, just like challenged, I think. Um, by just everything. Like I said, the course seemed hard. I knew the competition was going to be insanely good. Um, all these kinds of back things of my mind, of doubt. I'm 35, I'm old, can I do this anymore? Um, and it was cool Cause I think I took a minute. And yet that afternoon, from being really upset, like I was like I can't, I'm not going to do this race, I'm not going to do it. And later that day I just was like, are you going to rise to the challenge or are you going to just like crumble? You can, like you can drop out and not do it, that's fine, that's easy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's easy.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about I think it actually really helped. Uh, the two Kenyan guys who were like insanely good, patrick and Phil Amon, they, um, that same day, or maybe it was the next day, it was right around the same time they were running on the course and it was snowy. And those guys I asked I was like Patrick, have you ever run in snow before? And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've run in snow. And I was like, oh, okay, like a lot of times he's like, oh, last year at Pikes Peak. And I was like like laughing because at Pikes Peak it definitely snowed, don't get me wrong. Um, but it snowed like an inch.
Speaker 2:And um, you know, patrick's from Kenya, so he's never seen snow. And I'm like this guy's the best in the world. He's going to go race on something he's never even seen. And I'm crying, you know, making a pity party about how it's a little muddy. And so I was like you know the best athletes like rise to the challenge. It's Patrick's going to rise to the challenge. He's never even seen snow. And so I was like I can do this, um, and so it wasn't amazing, it wasn't like my best race ever. I got 14th. Um, I wanted to get top 10 and I actually had like a really good descent, so some parts were really good.
Speaker 1:And you got out of your own head. You know, I think that's like one of the most important things, cause it's anybody could just go ahead and quit and just you know, oh, my ankles, but something's bothering me and just not show up, you know. But the fact that you went through and gutted it out and dude 14th is super solid. I mean this is the best athletes in the world. Like that's wild. Um, congrats to that dude. And what did you think of that? Like super high altitude. How'd you deal with that?
Speaker 2:it wasn't too bad. I think we're lucky here in colorado that we've. You know, I've raised pikes peak like seven times or something, so, um, I've been up to that altitude, race to that altitude before. Um, the race went up to 13 000 maybe that's pretty solid um and so it's definitely high. But I was like I think I know what this is gonna feel like yeah um, and so actually I really like that part.
Speaker 2:There's like a big climb up to 13 000 feet, huge descent, which was, like, I think, the best descent of my life. I was like, oh my gosh, I passed like four people like on this super steep muddy trail through the woods, like cutting corners, like jumping over stuff. It was insane, that's amazing. Um, and then, yeah, the back side of the course was kind of like um, actually dried up so it wasn't even muddy after all. That like mental anguish, um, but that part was like super runnable, which was funny Cause I had, um. I feel like that was probably the part I ran the worst, so just like did what I could, but, um, a lot of people like really excelled, just running the whole course really well.
Speaker 1:And that's the cool thing about trail running is you have to hit everything. Well, it's true, to be the best you have to do, be good at everything, hard to do. Let me ask you this, culturally What'd you think Like? Just from cause I know you've you've raced so many golden trail series races. A lot of it is in Europe. This is a little bit different. These are kind of some of the first Asian races. So what'd you think culturally like pretty fun to go over there and do that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, um man in China. The fans were were crazy.
Speaker 1:It was awesome.
Speaker 2:They were like um, I think they're. So they're saying guy yo, which means go Chinese, like you know, like LA, la.
Speaker 2:LA and so they're like guy yo, guy yo, and like dressed up as pandas and like yelling in your face and it was like really cool. Especially on the like high altitude climb, there's big groups of fans. Um, we, we ran by like a, um Tibetan, like Buddhist temple prayer flags everywhere and um, just very different than the U, s or Europe and really cool. So I think that was awesome. Um and oh man, I have like so much more to say about this, but uh, go for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, take it, take it away.
Speaker 2:Long story short is I've raced in China before in kind of the same area, like Chengdu is the big city that's not on the east coast of China and it's pretty different and I raced the Yading Sky Race in 2017 and 2018. And so geographically relatively close to where we were for Four Sisters or whatever they want to call that race.
Speaker 2:It has like 10 different names, um, for golden trail this year, but, um, yeah, china is just a different place, different culture. Um, and how to elaborate? Gosh? Uh, really quickly. It's like china is growing like crazy. Everything's under construction and it's amazing because all the people there are very like on board with this mission to like build china and make it the best they can, which is cool. So, even since I've been there in 2018, like uh Chengdu, the big city seems like much more Western and comfortable and like nice, it's like a beautiful garden um city.
Speaker 2:It's almost like some futuristic version of like Miami or something bizarre but it's um, it's got a lot of tall buildings, a lot of apartment buildings but a lot of, like, uh, palm trees and flower beds and those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:I bet the food's amazing too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, the food can be really good and it can also be really bad, um, so we had pretty mediocre food, unfortunately, um, a lot of like. Everyone was just eating like rice and sweet potatoes every day, and that's it Cause. I think we were worried about eating like the mystery meats.
Speaker 1:Yes, that could be a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so which I've had some like when I was in China before. I was really psyched Cause we had like Shazuan food like we're in Shazuan. It's amazing. It's super spicy and like they have like yak, which is like kind of the um. There's a uh again.
Speaker 2:I could go on and on and on, but there's like a, a clash of cultures, right where the race is, and there's like maybe three clashes of cultures, but the main one is um, china has a lot of like urban dwelling people who are in like the year 3000 and like use like cell phones and the internet and like are um into like anime and that kind of stuff, whatever that world, and like taking selfies, and that's like clashing against the people who have traditionally lived in the mountain regions. And I'm not an expert in China says please correct me if anyone knows more about this, but the like Tibetan people who live in central China in the mountains, um, they live like a very different life. It's rural, they're like buckwheat farmers, um, and so when you go to these mountain regions, you see both and it's really interesting. So it's um, it's cool to see that and experience both, because they're really different.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, the food is also really different too, like sejuan food versus sejuan food. So I've never had tibetan. Well, maybe I have, I don't know. It's a lot more mild. So they have, um, yeah, I'm trying to think, but they have like milk, it's a lot of uh, like napoles food. Yeah, people have ever been. That's what I understand.
Speaker 1:So yeah, which is kind of like northern indian, it's like dude, I love. Like asian culture is very interesting to me and it's it's very cool. Um, I'm glad you enjoyed it and I'm glad you had such a great time. I, uh, I can ask you so many more questions about, like from a cultural perspective, and this, that and the other. Um, maybe let's unpack, let's get into the rest of your season. Talk about that a little bit more. On what you have planned, I know kind of already alluded and said that you were going to be a broken arrow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um the 23k yeah both start to go back. This is how many years you've been going here now? Not that many, actually. Um. My first year was 2021.
Speaker 2:Okay, so now um and they did in october and I got third. It was super close between um darren and joe and I joe won in like 20 seconds. Like five seconds later was darren, 20 seconds later was me. So that was cool race, yeah. Um. Then I won broken era in 2022 and then last year I was hurt. I didn't do it, I just chewed people on. So this will be my third broken arrow, so okay I don't know why.
Speaker 1:I feel like you know what, probably because you've done the vk and the 23k, I almost feel like it's like kind of separates it in years, I don't know. Uh, but now excited to go back and excited for you to go back and cheer you on this year. It'll be pretty cool. I'm kind of bummed. I'm not going to be out there this year. I went out last year and so I'll have to go back next year and you'll be at, uh, mammoth as well yeah, let me just go in order, because I'll forget something otherwise.
Speaker 2:Um, and this is cool because this is like we have goal races as the trail team and that's kind of just like highlighting some of the best sub ultra races in the us, um, and so I'll be at a lot of them. But, um, for the team, let's see in order. It's going to be gopro games here in vale, which um way underrated, by the way.
Speaker 2:It's like super competitive great race um, yeah, high altitude, good trails, maybe slightly less technical, but that's america in general and I think that's great for new, new runners to uh, new to the trail, like if you're coming from ncaa. Broken arrow is, um, our second gold race. We have a ton of people from the team there. Um, then we also are going to do the two us mountain running champs. So loon, which is the uphill loon mountain race, uphill or vertical mountain running champs, that's going to be in new hampshire, july 7th I believe, and then the next weekend is Cirque Series, snowbird near Salt Lake City on July 13th. And then Mammoth and Headlands I think it's Headlands first, then Mammoth, which are the Golden Trail World Series races in the US. So some really big international races here on our home turf.
Speaker 1:Dude, you're going to be traveling a lot. Wow, quick question for you, because I're you're pretty connected to this world. So now that challenge to lena isn't happening and, yep, loon isn't technically like, it's going to be a selection, but it's not like. How does that work now?
Speaker 2:so it's not going to be a selection race anymore, um, but hopefully they'll remedy that or maybe honor that it has been okay so long story short is um. It's all unofficial, so we'll, hopefully we'll find out, but um the forces that be are trying to find an alternative.
Speaker 2:Uh team usa okay and I'm super passionate about that. I've been on a lot of teams and kind of in um, the world of um, being a tiny bit part of usatf, mutt, um, but it's like, uh, yeah, so the world championships only every other year. So it's going to happen next year, 2025, in september in um, confranc, spain, um, so in the meantime, we want to like give these young people at the trail, team people, chances to make us teams and like figure it out, get it wrong, yeah, maybe, um, and so the two, two races that were going to happen was going to be challenged selena in in August in Italy, and then NACAC in Mexico City, basically, and also in August. So Mexico City NACAC is still going to happen To qualify for that. That's going to be for the 50K-ish length one. It's Broken Arrow, 46k is the qualifier, top two make it on the team. And then for the up-down, it's going to be snowbird cirque. So it's going to be like super good us team. Like those races are insanely competitive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, yeah. So challenge thing is canceled. Unfortunately, the italian people, um, just couldn't put it together this year. It sounded like for whatever reason, and so hopefully we're going to have an alternative um later, you know, maybe like september, october, probably October, um, probably in Europe, um, maybe at the world cup final. Okay, uh, we're trying to organize, which would be really cool, cause the world cup is like a great international series that the U? S usually doesn't go to but that has, like all the, a lot of countries and a lot of good people. So hopefully, um, maybe loon will still be a selection, but let's just say for now it's just us champs okay, dude, thanks for giving that breakdown.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that because I read the challenge selena press, like the like the press, uh, that they put out, because it's translated from italian. Yeah I was like I'm so confused. What are we doing here?
Speaker 2:oh the italian, just does not translate well, I think it always just is like a lot of they must just have beautiful language. That um means less that you know's like it's unclear and and, uh, very hard to follow.
Speaker 1:I am Italian, like that's where all of my family is from and I I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't get it. So, um, dude, I'm so excited that you're going to be at Snoke a Cirque snowbird. I I'm very excited to follow along on this race. I feel like I'm so happy racing all of those races this year, minus aliaska and snowbirds. I'm a little bummed I'm not gonna be there, but super excited to follow, follow along and I feel like for the runner it's such a it's a little bit of a better runner's course, even though it's 3k. Issue of climbing, I feel like it's not super technical, very runnable. So it's gonna be interesting to see how it unfolds. I know, uh, christian's gonna be there. I was pretty excited. He kind of. He said that the other day. There's a lot of people, so it should be fun to see who shows up, it's gonna be yeah, it's gonna be a stacked field.
Speaker 2:Great course, um. You know they alternated between east and west, so it's nice that loon has the uphill um this year, just because, um, I don't like leaving out the east coast, but I think that right now there's a lot more young runners in the mountain west. So, yeah, having it here is great. If it's drivable for a lot of people, it's going to be even better and it's it's a real mountain course oh, for sure it's more runnable, but it's like for maybe for circ series.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but um, it'll definitely it's not bright, and let's put it that way yeah, whoever makes it through that can uh, can kind of run anywhere in the in the world probably, which is nice yeah, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1:Now I'm excited to see what happens, and let me just ask you one more question. I don't know if you're are, if you're aware of this or if you know of this, but is the reason we don't get as many out here because of the altitude, and they want to make it fair, so they tend to choose more east coast ones, or how does that work when they select?
Speaker 2:like oh yeah, that's a great question. Um, and it's funny because I wrote um an article about this and we probably need to publish it. It just got like kind of which I dragged my feet about it, um, but it's like a whole nother category you should ask more about. But, um, it's like what is USATF? Like? How, how do they have anything to do with trail running? Cause if, for example, like um last year, they like uh, had athletes of the year they do it every year. Like Courtney DeWalter did not get picked. And you're like oh well, courtney and Walter are the best year ever. And you're like, yes, of course she did, but she's not a USATF member because she didn't run any USATF races and she didn't pay for a membership and that's because, um, usatf is heavily involved with like it's our, it's our governing.
Speaker 2:Then, for short stuff, um, it is more important. So I think for mountain running it's super important how we select our teams, it's how we, um, you know, kind of coordinate with the other countries. Um, so anyway, I'm going on a big tangent no, no, keep going, I, I'm just yeah yeah, so I think that's a big thing. So you were saying how do, how does the us like select where championships are?
Speaker 1:so it's actually pretty simple.
Speaker 2:Um and I I know this cause. I helped NARNAR in 2021 race.
Speaker 1:I wish they'd bring it back.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I helped uh, that was an existing grace, and I worked with the race directors to do the USATF paperwork for him. So I was like, yeah, this should be a championship. So all you have to do is, um, you fill out the uh paperwork and there's a bidding process, um, and then it usually has just a few factors that are, um, kind of probably pretty obvious, which is like is this a racist? That's happened and we know it's going to be run well. Um, does it have like a reasonable amount of prize money for elites, which is it's actually pretty low. I think it's like 10 grand total.
Speaker 2:So we're talking, you know, like maybe a thousand dollars for the win that's crazy and then, um, yeah, they do think about location um a bit if there's like two really good bids. But um, they try to make it fair and uh and kind of think about. Recently I've heard a lot of discussion about like, um, we're selecting a world team. Does the course, is it going to select the right people? We don't want to have a flat um like I love the berkey. The berkey's been a us champs for a lot of years. Um, it's a relatively flatter course in Wisconsin, not at altitude, so that would not be a good selection race for you know, maybe like a big mountain um marathon or something for the world champs next year, for example. Um, so they, they consider that Um, and I'm not part of this at all there's a, there's a board of people that the usatf annual meeting to to find out. Yeah, so I can answer these questions well it's, it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's super interesting to me because, like you can even and it's very interesting when you start getting terrain involved and start thinking about, okay, the next one's going to be, it's in the pyrenees, right, you said something somewhere in that region. So like, for instance, this past year we had, or this uh year, what 2023 we had in spruck, and I just thought it was really interesting, like from like the long course perspective they chose. What was it in california?
Speaker 2:um, they did. They probably did sonoma, yeah for it, and I was just like they did sonoma, it was sonoma.
Speaker 1:I just like it was super competitive. I mean people turned out, obviously. But I just thought it was interesting because that profile and it was that early in the season versus what we're trying to get together for an in spruck which is like such a serious mountain race yeah, I don't know, I just thought it was that early in the season versus what we're trying to get together for an Inspruck, which is like such a serious mountain race. Yeah, I don't know, I just thought it was interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the other, yeah, the other races they chose were um formidable. Yeah For the 40 K, which is super hilly and then um breakneck, which I hear is really gnarly, yeah, so yeah, I think there's.
Speaker 2:No, I think I'm biased on this. My opinion always, whenever they ask me again, I I don't make these decisions, but I kind of throw out my opinion sometimes is like we know who's going to do well, like the athletes, and so we're like yeah, we want the max kings. You know who are. Like it doesn't matter what the course is.
Speaker 1:So if max king wins sonoma or if he wins breakneck, he's going to be, um, ready to go, still going to show up a hundred percent every now and then you'll get those like sleepers, though I feel like, like, for instance, like for me, like I feel very confident that whoever, whoever comes out victorious, like that podium that's going to come out of like cirque snowboard, for instance yeah that group is going to be ready to run mountains like that 's that's you know, I don't. I feel like it's a proper selection.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and it's nice Cause we've been doing that for the short uh, whatever you want to call it like 10 K up down mountain champs. It's been um. You know, for as long as I've been an athlete, 10 years it's been um. Just that's one selection event. Come out and run it top four, make the team, and it's like really fair and I think that's nice for um. Like you said, we like I maybe I'm eating my words, but it's like, yeah, we know Max Kings didn't do well, but it's like what, if you're not, you don't have a name yet, so go out and prove it.
Speaker 1:And there's opportunities, yeah.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of people like Liam Meru and some other up, had a great race and, you know, got their name out there and there's, there's quite a few that start, you know, popping up. So it's gonna be interesting to see, like, where the future holds and like I don't know. Our sport just keeps getting more and more competitive, so people keep turning up. So, um, all right, so let's wind down a little bit. We're already at an hour. Um, let's start getting into some some wild questions, sort of throwing some wild ones. So I've said this to you before, you know, like your first ballot hall of famer. So I'm very interested, like I've been wanting to ask you this question who is your sub ultra mountain running goat, both male and female?
Speaker 2:Oh man.
Speaker 1:I should have probably messaged you and told you I was going to ask you this.
Speaker 2:No, that's okay. Um, there's so many people. I think the obvious one in the U? S is Joe gray. I've been racing him forever and it's funny, cause I have not beat him in like seven years or something.
Speaker 2:I beat him in a. I think it was like the. It was a mountain running champs in bend, oregon, um, and it was this guy, Pat Smythe, and I and Joe. We were all on the podium, pat one, I got second and Joe got third. That's like maybe the last time I beat him. Do you like one of the only people you are the only person I've ever met that, I think, has beaten joe grant race? That's wild, oh yeah, but it takes a decade. You just have to catch him the one off day in a decade. Um, so he's an easy one. You know someone like killian I've raced before and he's insanely good. Obviously just one zagama and he's um, I think he's six months older than me, so he's probably roughly 36 years old, but he's been good since he's like 17.
Speaker 2:So I think to be able to win for that long and to win all those different distances that Killian's done, it's pretty incredible. So for guys, that's my answers. I guess that's fair, man. For women, there's so many people, it makes it so hard, I think, and it's hard with distances too. So it depends. You said sub-ultra, Sorry. I should have been listening.
Speaker 1:Courtney would have been too easy if I let you have ultra.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry, I should have been listening. Um, courtney, would have been too easy if I let you have ultra, yeah, yeah, well, I mean well, a little asterisk. In the last one, killian had like the vertical K, uh, world record first guy to break 30, I think stuff like that so definitely for sub ultra, even though he's run, you know, and stuff like Sears and all. It's so easy on my mind to say, like someone like Grayson, she's such an obvious candidate two-time world champ. But I just want to throw out some older names too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 2:I was just looking at vertical races in the US and someone like Kim Dobson- yes, thank you, Totally underrated insanely good at that.
Speaker 1:She's won pikes so many times.
Speaker 2:She's an animal, yeah like nobody knows how good she is because she's kind of humble and like doesn't have this big flashy thing, um, and people kind of easily forget. And then another person who's retired now is megan kimmel yeah, um, who is like I just always have this moment. She was racing killing's wife um emily in um scotland and I just have this image like when I remember her. But she was racing, it was 50k um, and uh, megan kimmel was, and she like didn't stop, whipped out her soft flask, scooped it out of like scooped water out of a stream at like six minute pace per mile and just kept going and she beat emily, who's like the best in the world at the time I was like megan kimmel's so badass, that's great she was wearing this like all black solomon kit.
Speaker 2:it was so cool, Um, just like super iconic. So I think, uh, don't forget Megan Kimmel please. She's an icon of the sport.
Speaker 1:No, thank you for bringing up some of these older names too. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:And then wait, hold on. Let me think. If I'm missing anyone, sorry, there's probably so many. Um, oh my gosh, like dude, there's. Honestly, right now women's trail running is insane Like there's so many good people. Allie Mack, super good, won, you know, stages at Golden Trail Series and a vertical world champs in the same week on different sides of the world.
Speaker 1:I'm such a fan of her dude, oh my God yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, like Maude Mathis, right now still crushing it.
Speaker 1:Dude Judith Put Judith in that conversation. Judith is super good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's like just the slew of women that are like have had their ups and downs over the last few years, who were just on and on, um yeah, so lots of people no, I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it all right. Last question what's your take on bigfoot?
Speaker 2:bigfoot. Oh, um, you know, probably real, really, um, I mean, I'm honestly probably not, but let's just say there's a chance, guys. So if you're out there in the woods, you know I've only seen one mountain lion while running, and I run all times of day and night. So I think keep your eyes out for the Bigfoot.
Speaker 1:Dude, you've seen mountain lions. You run up in Boulder.
Speaker 2:I've seen one in, yeah, the mountains west of Boulder. That's wild, but, if you know, with years of running, you west of boulder, that's wild so, but if you know, with years of running you're gonna see something yeah, I can't believe I've only seen one, so you've ever.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you spook bears and stuff all the time. Okay, this is gonna lead up. Yeah, what's your take on grizzlies still in colorado?
Speaker 2:oh wait, what?
Speaker 1:yeah, still that they are still in colorado there's like a subculture, there's like a thing with this. So this there's been some books written. The last grizzly in colorado was killed in the san juans. Uh, in the 80s it's like 84, the ed wiseman bear. But like every year there's like in the san juans, there's like semi-credible sightings.
Speaker 2:So I don't know my take would probably be I'm such a science hater and like, uh, bring me the. The proof, after I just joked about bigfoot is um. Often people in boulder will like see a deer and they'll be like, look at that mountain lion. And um, I live west of boulder and we had like a bear at our house the other day.
Speaker 2:It was this tiny little, um little black bear and I think black bears come in lots of different colors and could be little, because they're one years old, or they can be big, and so I think it's um, maybe, but um, yeah, I'd say it's most likely. People just have, uh, have lost touch with nature and um, sometimes misidentify.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, for sure. No, probably a, uh, probably a cinnamon phase.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, blackberry. But well, dude, thanks so much for coming on. I I hope that this is the first of quite a few. Um, yeah, we'll definitely have more and we'll do more. I definitely want to recap the season and we'll uh, I'd appreciate you. Thank you so much yeah, thanks, james.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing uh more about the trail team, so hopefully people can um follow along and and if you're someone we should talk to, reach out to me absolutely.
Speaker 1:Oh dude, plugs, let's get into. Let's get into plugs. Do you want to plug your Instagram? Plug the trail team, let's go through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, my Instagram is a whacker. A W a C K E R a, that's my last name. Um, the trail team is at the trail team with some things in there I always forget. It's like hy, have a website, you should go to it's trail-teamcom that's a good one and I've been working on that a lot, just because there's a lot of good resources. Yeah, you're talking about like usatf or races I should do um.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of like, uh, people should use that um, I know we have a lot of aspiring elites that do listen to this and people that are trying to make it onto the scene should kind of filter them your way. If there's anybody that has questions and stuff like that, maybe I'll learn more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always try to help out everyone I can, even if it's like pretty minimal Um. So I, you know I've been talking to people on the phone like all the time, just trying to like find out what they need and want and um how I can help them. Um, we'll probably do a big round of applications for the trail team and our club team next, uh, january. So so I know that's a long ways away, but in the meantime just um message me and I'll see what I can do.
Speaker 1:Sweet dude. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:You're welcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what'd you guys think? I told you that was a banger of an episode. Uh, really want to give Andy a very special shout out and a very special thank you for coming on the pod to chat with us about all kinds of fun things he's got. He has going on, uh before. Uh, before this episode's over. Just want to go ahead and give a few plugs.
Speaker 1:If you guys want to hop on over to instagram and give andy a follow, his tag is just whacker a um, or you could type in andy whacker and it'll probably just come up on instagram. So go ahead and hop on over to give andy a follow. The second follow that you guys are going to want to do is hop on instagram and give a follow to the trail team. If you guys are interested in connecting with the trail team, learning more or and or donating to the trail team, all you gotta do is go online and type in the trail hyphen, teamcom, and you can kind of go on there and find all kinds of fun stuff, um, for their coaching resources, just all kinds of resources, as well as to check out the store. There's some bad-ass Sealy hats on there and just all kinds of really fun merch and, last but not least, if you guys are interested in donating, this is a nonprofit and Andy's doing a ton of work to really just a ton of work for these athletes and we want to obviously keep this going. From a just a community perspective, I think it's a lot of fun and this is really impactful in our community to have the trail team, so go ahead and hop on and you guys can go ahead and do a donation to the trail team's website.
Speaker 1:Well, last but not least, that's it. Yeah, guys, hope you guys enjoyed this one. Have a great rest of your week. Thanks so much. The steep stuff, pod. Thank you.