Use Biology to Help Baby Thrive

In this episode of Modern Nurture, we sit down with Anya Dunham, a research scientist and mother of three, to discuss insights from her book, Baby Ecology. Anya talks about the capabilities and development of babies in the womb and in their early years, the impacts of sensory stimulation, and practical tips for sleep and play. The conversation touches on essential topics like prenatal learning, mind-mindedness, the importance of proper sensory input, and the effects of screen time. Additional insights about baby intuition and sleep routines are also covered.

Be sure to check out Anna's book, Baby Ecology. 
https://www.amazon.com/Baby-Ecology-Science-Intuition-Environment/dp/177780440X

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00:00 Intro

02:11 Prenatal Learning

07:06 Excessive Stimulation Examples and Impacts

11:01 Babies Can't Shift their Gazes

12:20 How Parents Should Foster Play

17:29 Mind Mindedness: Attachment Foundation

27:50 One Month Olds Self Settling

31:43 Drowsy But Awake...

33:41 Bedtimes Shift, Wake Times Don't

37:23 Screen Time

39:52 Intuition

Transcript

0:00

. Hey mamas today, we are talking with Anya Dunham. She is the author of baby ecology, our really great science packed book about the biology of your baby. And. How they grow, how they develop in. What you can do to support that. So today we are going to talk about. Um, what your babies are capable of and can learn in the womb. And. Through those first few years. What your babies are capable of what kinds of sensory and stimulation types of things. Can actually hinder or help your baby's development. We talk a little bit about sleep. And we had some technical difficulties with this. Episode., we were unable to use my normal recording software. So I use zoom and apparently I didn't have the right zoom plan to record more than maybe 20, 30 minutes with her. So. I will get into the episode with you here and then I'll pop back in at the end to cover a couple more topics from her book that I wanted to, to cover with you guys. So enjoy the episode. Catch you after. Okay. Hey mamas. Welcome to Modern Nurture. I'm here today with Anya. She's the author of Baby Ecology. This is a great book. I can't wait to dig into it. Anya, welcome. Will you give us a little introduction of yourself? Thank you. Thank you for having me. Uh, my name is Anya Dunham and, um, in my day job, I am a research scientist studying biology. I have a PhD in biology and I'm also a mom to three young kids. And I'm the author of Baby Ecology, in which I applied my training as a biologist and, uh, kind of intersected that with a huge interest in early childhood development. Uh, and, um, so in this book, I tried to figure out what do all babies need from their environment. So it's sort of marrying my, um, training as an ecologist and, uh, my heart of a parent. I really loved reading the book because it was just very practical and just very, like, you were just giving the fundamentals. You know, like, your baby can do this at this stage, your baby does not, cannot respond to this, or this hinders your baby's growth. So, um, I really enjoyed that. Today I was hoping we could start with prenatal. Learning, because I think that's a thing we don't often think about until maybe the stage where your baby starts to kick and maybe can respond to certain things. So can you explain how babies begin to learn and develop sensory awareness while they're still in the womb? Yeah, I think that's, um, that's something that, um, a lot of parents don't realize and something that I didn't realize, um, until I started reading, um, all the primary literature about it. So our babies are actually a lot more capable than many of us. I think it's fairly well known that, um, babies can hear us in the third trimester. Um, you know, we often advise to read to our babies, to play music and talk to them. Uh, but the fact that they not only can hear us quite well, but also memorize And learn while they're still, uh, in the womb. I think that's something that isn't as well known. So for example, if a mom, if the mom is the one who carries the pregnancy, if she reads the same story, uh, recites a poem to the baby, that's Then the baby responds to that, um, poem if they've heard it several times. So that tells us that they not only heard the mom reading it, but also were able to remember it and to react to it at the time when they hear it again. So to me, that's, they react to it once they're born or they react to it in the womb. Even before that, even while they're still in the womb and also as well after they're born as well. And what, what, uh, how did you, how did the. How did the study investigators know that the baby was reacting? Was it like a physical reaction? It was a bit of both. So they looked at their physical movements and they looked at the brain, um, like the, um, the patterns of brain activity. And so they were able to tell that the baby responds to something that they have heard before. Um, that's really interesting. Are there any other skills we should know about? If not, I was going to ask for some suggestions for the audience to take advantage of their baby's skills in the womb that they might not know about. Yeah, exactly. And then maybe, maybe reading something that the mom enjoys herself so that it's a nice experience for both mom and baby. And I think it's also learning that, um, when after babies are born, they are also a lot more sort of, um, capable than we sometimes give them credit for, but in some ways they also a lot more sensitive to, so like for example, um, it's been shown that when we give a baby a massage, it can be really enjoyable, um, for even the youngest newborn. But there was an interesting thing that, uh, researchers, uh, researchers have found, and it's that if we sort of clearly show the baby what we're about to do, make eye contact, but talk to them soothingly, and we sort of make our intentions really clear, then it could be a very enjoyable experience for the baby. But if we do it without eye contact and sort of in a fast, not very connected way, then actually babies respond in a similar way. AIDS when they were given immunizations. So it's almost like it's painful and stressful for them. And I thought that that was a really interesting thing. And it's something that is really good to know. Yeah, I, um, I have that for my next segment here. I wanted to talk about that a little bit. So, you said that they are, in your book, you said they are calmed by a soothing touch, but they find it stressful when touched in silence and without eye contact. They're already very perceptive. That's really insane. So, you said they respond as if they're being, like, in the same way as you. being immunized if you're kind of massaging them or touching them without, you know, looking at them or reacting with them. Yeah. And if we think about it, like it actually makes sense because everything is so new to them that maybe something that they don't anticipate at all can feel very stressful to them. Wow. Um, jumping back to the last topic real quick. Um, besides reading to your baby, is there anything else you should do while your baby's in the womb to take advantage of the skills they have there? Well, I think things like playing music, um, going outside. I think everything that generally is good for the pregnant woman. And then mom is also good for the baby because they can, um, feel a lot of what we feel. And I think another interesting fact, and I think that's a little bit more, um, well known, but that some of the flavors from our diet are slight, I transferred in a very slight way through the amniotic fluid to our babies. And so I think it's pretty cool that even, uh, during pregnancy, they already getting to know and to learn a little bit about their family, what their families do about their culture and things like that. So there are a lot more kind of. Um, present already, um, even though we can't see them yet. They talk, they often tell you that the baby gets flavors from your breast milk, but, um, I didn't know it was through the amniotic fluid as well. That's awesome. Yeah., so going back to once they're born stimulation, , can you talk about, you talked about it in your book, there's, things that we can do that kind of hinder the sensory development. So like, what are some examples of excessive stimulation and how does that hinder their progress and learning? That's awesome. Yeah. So, you know, as I mentioned, um, I think in many ways we underestimate babies, but in some ways we also overestimate them a bit. And I think there's this idea that we can provide a lot of enrichment in their early month and weeks and, um, the first year or two, which is really true, but it's sort of what we do that makes the biggest difference because it's not necessarily the amount of stimulation that we provide, but it's more about the quality, but what they can take in, um, and what helps them. their development. And I think there are some misconceptions around it because it's actually fairly easy for something that seems stimulating and interesting to adults to be overstimulating for a very new babies. And I think it goes back to how young babies learn, which is really how all of us learn. Um, how older children and even adults learn. So to notice something, uh, and to learn about it, we first have to notice it and to separate it from everything else around it. Like say, you know, you're out for a walk and you're noticing a bird in the tree and you have to kind of visually separate it out. Then we have to pay attention to that particular object, kind of store it in memory And then by kind of adding observations like that, then our mind, our brain creates a pattern. So we start realizing that those things in the trees or flying in the sky are birds. And so it's similar for babies. They first, they need to, to learn about something. They have to kind of separate it from everything else. And so if there is a lot of, um, excessive noise or visual clutter in the environment. Or if a baby's already tired and a bit overstimulated, it's a lot harder for them to kind of notice those new things. And because they also, they don't have that focused, selective attention that older children and adults do. To them, everything is interesting and new and exciting and worth paying attention to. So it's almost like their brain is like casting light on absolutely everything around them. And so if we provide a bit too much, it's harder for them to really notice any one particular thing. So that's sort of, I think, one thing that I found really interesting and useful for the early weeks and month with my own kids. And then, um, another thing is the idea of sensory integration. So for them to also notice and learn something, it helps if they can perceive that object through several senses. So for example, if they were hearing a bird sing and see it at the same time, that helps them kind of bring together all the information coming from all different senses. So if they have like, say there's a family dog and they can feel it and hear it and maybe smell it, then it all comes together for them a little more easily. Yeah, that makes sense., there was a quote from your book which,, kind of touches on this and it said, Bright lights can block baby's ability to distinguish patterns, shapes, and colors. Background noises louder than 50 decibels reduces the baby's ability to hear differences in pitch, intensity, and sound patterns. Strong odors, smoke, perfume, overwhelm some of their senses, um, even taste buds. And Yeah, and even the, the movements, you, you mentioned something, um, in the book as well, which was like, babies can't move their, like they can't move their gazes. Can you talk a little bit about that and how we can set up the environment so that they can learn? Yeah. So as adults, you know, if I wanted to look, um, to the side, I can quite easily just shift my gaze to the side and look that way and still be able to fully notice what I'm looking at. But for young babies. Um, it's harder for them. They, they really only it's, and it has to do both with our sort of, uh, the ability to control their, um, their muscles, their vision. So to really notice something, it helps if their trunk and their, their head and their gaze is all aligned. Um, and which is a lot harder for them to do if they're sitting, for example, in one of the like little infant bucket seats or otherwise contained, because it's. It's harder for them to move yet in general. And so when the baby maybe is on the floor, whether they're doing time to time or they're just on their back or they're in our arms, it's a lot easier for that to fully kind of turn towards something and then to really notice what it is that they're looking at. Yeah, that's a, that's really great advice. I think a lot of times you think you should set your baby in something so they can see better or, you know, have a better perspective on what you guys are doing. But, , it's good to know that that's actually less helpful., can you talk about play a little bit? How should caregivers play with their babies to support, , neural development? Like how much should they be structuring an activity and engaging and interrupting and all those things? So I think a lot of it depends on the individual baby too, and it's,, because we can see their temperament pretty much from birth, we can see how each individual baby responds to the world around them, and it takes a while to, to, to get to know. Oh, your unique baby and to really sort of see what it is that they like and what it is they're interested in, but it starts from birth. And so, but in general, all babies, of course, enjoy interaction with, um, the main people in their lives with us. So it's a lot of that sort of serve and return, responding to baby's vocalization, whether it's like a little coo and another little sound, we can start those really early conversations. Um, so that's one way. Great way to, um, to spend time with them. And then, of course, there is free play and free exploring. And that's something they can do from really early days as well. That, which was something, um, that I think not everyone realizes that just simply putting the baby on the blanket on the floor and sitting next to them can be a great learning opportunity because they can start discovering their hands. They can start looking at, um, Um, things around them and, you know, we, we all know that baby babies cannot see very well when they're born, but actually their vision develops pretty quickly. And so even, um, like a six week old, then they will be able to see things around them and kind of how things change. And again, starting to notice patterns around, you know, how light travels, how their own fingers move. So there's a ton for them to learn, even without necessarily going to the commander and baby group or library yet, and things like that. Although there's also nothing wrong with, of course, with, uh, doing those things, if the parents enjoy it as well. Like, I think my kind of main takeaway from, from the research in this area was that, Don't feel pressured to go and do things with your baby in terms of enrichment or swimming or library time unless you as a parent feel ready and feel like it benefits both you and the baby. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think one thing you mentioned in the book that's related is that, , I think it was a study where the amount that a parent kind of interfered or repositioned while a baby was trying to investigate something, um, it could actually hinder their neural development. I don't want to say hinder neural development. What you said was more like, yeah, stronger brain development happens when you do those things less. Yes. Okay. Right? Yeah, exactly. So it goes back to that, um, attention development. And so initially, babies pay attention to absolutely everything, right? And it's, um, especially things that are new, but they also, everything is new. And so they're paying attention to everything around them. But as they grow, their focus, um, develops further. And so they kind of move away from, uh, paying attention to everything to being interested in certain things more and more. And that starts from the really early days. And so what studies have shown is that when parents support, in this case, A lot of the research was done with moms and babies, just because that's easier to study, but I think we can generalize this to all parents and all committed caregivers. But the more, um, parents follow baby's focus of attention, so allow babies to explore what it is that they're interested in the moment, instead of sort of repositioning and say, Hey, look at this new rattle grandma bought for you. Um, then the more babies are, um, able to explore the objects, uh, sort of in greater detail and greater depth. So their play becomes more complex, even at this age already. And also, um, when parents do this often, um, then these babies tend to grow into the toddlers who enjoy independent play more. So they're sort of more used to following their own lead and their own interests. And I actually found that personally when, especially with my first, I found it a bit hard not to interfere because I'd be excited about her. You know, mastering new skills or playing with a new toy that we just got and things like that. And so I almost had to sit on my hands a little bit and just be like, okay, let's just see. And oftentimes she really surprised me because she would use a toy in a totally different way from what I imagined, but it was just good and probably better for her. Yeah. I was, when I had my daughter, I was really, I was reading a lot about Montessori stuff And I'm a little skeptical of Montessori. before, you know, there are toddlers, but there were some principles, which are similar to what you're saying, which is like, allow them free time to, you know, gaze around and explore the world. So I luckily had some of that in my head with my daughter. Um, but it is really hard because like you said, you just really want to, you really want to help them and, show them what, you have for them. One thing that comes up a lot on my show is attachment theory, attachment, parenting, or strong, trying to get a strong attachment with your baby. And whenever we talk about that, it's always in relation to how you feed them or baby wearing and all these different things. And you mentioned these things as techniques, but you said there was a really strong factor to the bond. Um, Uh, that you make with your baby, which was called mind mindedness, which I had never heard of before your book. Can you talk about that and what it is and how to foster it? So my mind and this is probably my most favorite topic to read about. And it's interesting because a lot of us, uh, practice it intuitively, uh, but have never heard the term. Um, so mind mindedness is. Is a way of thinking about young children. And it's something what's beautiful about it, that it doesn't require purchasing anything. It doesn't require any kind of learning over a long period of time, certain set of skills. It's something that we can just, it's a mindset that we can adopt, which I think is very beautiful. And so it's a way of thinking about the, even young babies as people with minds and thoughts and feelings of their own from the very, very start. And, um, this approach helps us try and see the world from their perspective, as opposed to sort of trying to mold them into certain types of people, or maybe it's sort of instilling certain sets of skills that we think would benefit them in life and things like that. But we can kind of, it helps us follow the interests and see who they are, uh, because they already come into the world, very aware and with A lot already. So it's not like the empty vessels to be filled or cute little dolls to sort of, you know, carry around and play with. And they're certainly very cute, but there's much more to it than that. And so studies on mind mindedness started in the late. 80s, early 90s. And so now we have quite a good body of evidence around, um, the effects, um, that this mindset, this parenting mindset has, um, on children. And so what it shows is that babies whose parents are mind minded, tend to even have better physiological capacity to regulate their emotions. It's easier for them to stay calm and to return to a calm state, uh, physiologically. And then as they grow, they tend to have, um, stronger sort of self control as toddlers. And of course, there's not a whole lot of self control in toddlerhood yet, but it's easier for them to do things that are hard. At this age, like, wait, for example, wait their turn, or maybe let go of an object that they really want, which is pretty huge at that age. Um, and then as they grow even more, uh, it's becomes easier. They, they, it's easier for them to understand and relate to emotions of other people. Um, and then I think the longest study that followed families, um, has now followed the children to about age 10. Um, and so it's shown that, uh, 10 year olds who were raised in mind minded families tend to have stronger bonds, um, Stronger attachment and less tension with with their parents, which I think is pretty cool. So having kids that all the stages of development. My eldest is almost 13 and my youngest is three. So I can kind of see, you know, like, I can appreciate all these things. at different stages of, um, children's development very much. And at all stages, children show stronger attachments with their parents. And so, mind mindedness in addition to sensitivity and responsiveness is now often brought up, is one of the really big sort of prerequisites to, um, to attachment, one of the big factors that help attachment develop. Yeah, it seems very powerful. So can you give Mama some examples of how to practice that or what it looks like kind of in day to day situations? Yeah. So it's, um, it could be as simple as, you know, for example, we have our baby maybe playing on the floor and we're watching them and instead of thinking, um, again about, or like I'll offer my baby this, we, we try to, Trying to see the world and what the baby's seeing through that baby's eyes and think about, okay, well, how might they be feeling? What are they seeing? And so just that mindful observation, um, will help us start kind of, um, Becoming more and more mind minded. And it was interesting. Actually, one of the papers I read, um, the researchers developed an app where they would, um, send, um, the moms in this case, like a little prompt, they would ask something like, okay, like, you know, what are you up to? Like, what are you and your baby doing today? Or how's your day been? And then they would be kind of Helped to come up with a more mind minded response and not something like, Oh, we just, we went to the store and then the, maybe the app would say, well, um, and so how do you think your little one felt when they were in the, in the store, in the shopping carts and things like that. So they would sort of tried to, um, steer the parent towards. Thinking about what the experience might have been like for the baby, but I think we don't necessarily need an app for that. I think it's something that if we think about it ourselves, um, we can just remind ourselves to, to think about, um, everything around the baby from their perspective and not like sort of our wishes or hopes, which I think of course we have. Um, but sometimes it helps to set them aside or sort of, um, Maybe, maybe not necessarily a side, but look from both perspectives at the same time. So would it be things like, , you're looking a little sleepy, like you say that to your baby and so , let's take a nap or let's get ready for nap or, you're looking a little uncomfortable. Is your diaper wet? Let's go check. Things like that, like where you're kind of prioritizing like, oh, you seem to feel this. I'm noticing how you're feeling. Exactly. And maybe naming it too, right? Because I think, um, especially for those of us who are introverted like myself, sometimes it's, it feels almost silly to start talking to a really young baby. Um, cause you almost, You know, at some point you just enjoy, maybe enjoying the quiet and things like that, but it does help to name what we think they're feeling or thinking. Um, because even from about five months old, they are already starting to put words into categories and connecting, and even for young, at younger ages, they're starting to connect the words they're hearing with the actions or the objects that represent those. And so, um, it does help, um, for them to connect their feelings or sensations with the words that, that we use to describe them. And of course, we don't always know for sure what they might be thinking, but just like exactly in your example, like you said, I think you might be feeling this, or you look sleepy. I think that all helps, um, helps with that. Yeah, that's, it's interesting that, you know, you mentioned so much research on this stuff and like, it's just surprising to me that we have never heard of it, most of us. Um, so that's a really cool thing, a really cool tool for the toolbox, I think. That's what I, I've been thinking the same because it's, there's a lot that is kind of hidden in disparate research papers, but hasn't really become kind of mainstream knowledge. And I think some of those things that just really help. Like, like you said, they're not techniques like we hear a lot about techniques like baby wearing, for example, which is great. And I've certainly used it with my kids, but there's sort of more to it or there is sort of this underlying mindset or the way of seeing babies that I think some of these studies really help with, but they're not as well known as I would like it to be. I just did some research for a video recently where there was a study where mothers were baby wearing. And it, it said that those mothers were more able to respond appropriately, not just like they responded faster and also appropriately. And I think in your book, I think it was where you mentioned that appropriate responses to your baby is really key too. Um, so I think that's the same as mind mindedness. It's like, it's not just baby wearing that will get you there. Exactly, exactly. It's trying to figure out what it is that they need. And because, yeah, like, you know, I, I think I talked about that in the book a little bit as well, but my, I remember my first prenatal class when I was pregnant with my first daughter. And when we, the instructor asked us, like, how, what do we, Um, and that's what we think of when we hear responsiveness, which is, of course, really important with our children and, and then everyone said, well, we have to respond promptly, we have to respond quickly, and that's what comes to the forefront, but, um, to be truly responsive, the response also depends Needs to be appropriate, and we won't be spot on all of the time, of course, and that's totally normal and to be expected. But it's this idea of not just quickly, quickly soothing the baby because, um, we just we can't. Maybe like we, of course, we all feel flustered when our babies cry, right? Like it's, it's, uh, and it's, it's been shown that, um, the brain activation in the parent's brain is so quick because as soon as the babies cry, we're sort of wired biologically to do something, to move, to speak, to soothe, and that's very, very normal, but it's also that. how appropriate the response is to not just kind of soothing, but also seeing what it is that they might be missing, what it is in the environment that might be difficult for them, because that is what would truly soothe and comfort the baby. So it's taking that moment to allowing yourself to take that moment to try and figure it out. Okay, so just a quick note. I guess I only have 10 minutes left on my Zoom plan for a recording. So, we'll just keep going and see how far we can get, okay? That's good. So, I wanted to talk a little bit about sleep. I've covered sleep in, uh, the show before a little bit about the biology of sleep. So I just wanted to kind of touch on some things that were new to me or that I found interesting that I thought the audience would find interesting too., one thing that I thought was interesting was you talked about a study that showed that one month old re initiated sleep on their own, one out of three wakings, which means they have the ability to sleep on their own or return to sleep on their own that early. I don't, I don't think that's really talked about. Can you, um, can you talk about that a little bit and, you know, sleep environment and how. to cultivate that skill of babies being able to sleep on their own. And in your book, you kind of approach this without subscribing to any particular sleep method method. So that was nice to stay away from the controversy. That's right. Yeah. So what I tried to do is to just look at the science behind baby sleep and just bring out, you know, the information, exactly the information that not everyone might, uh, know, uh, without necessarily feeling like Parents have to do or not do certain things, but I found that really interesting as well, that one in three very young babies were able to, um, go to sleep without, uh, probably their parents even realizing that they've been awake. And so they have that ability, and I think it's still a little bit unclear as to why some babies can could do that and others not as much, but it probably has to do with their temperaments. Some babies are born, um, A little more settled. And so, um, they actually even, um, measure, often measure, uh, certain temperament characteristics, like apart from just being able to see the baby's personality and temperament emerge, some of it is measured as a percentage of quiet sleep at birth. So babies who slept deeper, um, for longer stretches at birth tend to be kind of more settled babies. Um, but of course things change and it's a bit of a, of a range and, and, and the scale as always. Um, but it's certainly something that we can support, um, as well, and we can help them, um, kind of sleep as well as they can as early as they're ready. Like that's been sort of my, my mantra with my own kids. And I mentioned it in the book because we can't, if, if, if I, my third, for example, had very severe reflux. And so sleep was way, way, way harder for him and everything was really hard for him in the beginning. And so I couldn't, Possibly imagined sort of him sleeping as well as my middle daughter has, for example, because he just physically wasn't able to do so. And I can see how some babies with more reactive, um, personalities or, uh, not personalities, I should say temperament, more reactive temperament, personalities, more of an interaction of temperaments within the environment. Um, but babies come wired differently and, uh, they experience the world differently, but we can do things to help them get there when they're ready. Um, and I think one of them would be, um, when we notice these signs that the baby can settle to sleep on their own and they seem comfortable, we can support that. And often it just means for me what it meant is, um, noticing, um, coming, um, getting up and looking in the bassinet and noticing that actually their eyes were closed and they were just moving in their sleep. And instead of picking them up and immediately feeding or holding them, just giving a few moments to see Like, are they actually awake? Cause that was my, my big revelation with one of my kids is that she was not, she was still sleeping and it was me because I was so, you know, as a new mom, it was just, you react to every little grunt and just ready, ready for it, ready to jump up and just giving again that tiny, tiny pause., that's really helpful. You mentioned in the book, , so a lot of advice there. out there tells you to try to put your baby down drowsy, but awake. And with my daughter's, at least her temperament, I just found that to be absurd. Okay. It just didn't work. So what, what is your advice? What, what, what is your kind of tweak to that approach? Yeah, I totally agree. Um, I have not. yet met a baby for whom it works. I did not work for either of my three for all different reasons, but it just seemed like they would either startle themselves awake or they just wouldn't want that. And so it just, it just didn't work. And so what I would do is I would actually try to bed fully awake instead of waiting for that, you know, stage where they're sleepy enough that being. Um, put from being held onto the sleep surface would be jarring for them. And so if independent sleep is the goal, what I have done, um, and it's, it's worked really well for one of my babies and actually amazingly, or even two, I would say two and for the third as well, but just later in, in, in his development was just, um, just putting them to bed when they appear tired. But awake and then seeing it will have what support they need from that from there. Um, for one of my babies, it just meant, um, just stroking her forehead really gently. And she just drifted off to sleep. Uh, no problem at all. And then, you know, for another baby might not be ready for that kind of, you know, just put to bed awake, um, and leave the room kind of transition. And so for some, I think, um, Being put to bed fully asleep is also just absolutely fine. And that's, that's what a lot of people can do as well. Um, one advice, um, that I have, uh, from reading the research is that for parents who put their babies, um, to bed fully asleep is wait about 10 minutes for young babies, uh, before the transfer, because they would be in much deeper sleep at that point. Got it. You also talked about. The fact that babies seem to have a standard wake time and it might be standard for each baby might have a slightly different wait time, but, , so it's important to set a bedtime so that you can get the amount of sleep that's required. Can you talk about how to find or achieve that bedtime? Yeah, it's tricky and something I found was just again, watching each baby and closely and just figuring out what works for them. Like the study you mentioned, it was done across many, many countries. It seems like bedtime seemed to vary depending on like on average in different countries, but, um, Children tend to wake up really early, um, between six and eight, which is, you know, for some of us, it doesn't feel like really early. For me, it does. Um, and so depending on if they go to bed later, then their total amount of night sleep would be less. And so in some cases, they can be compensated by napping more, but in some cases when children are maybe in daycare, um, that's not, um, necessarily going to happen. And so it's being mindful of that total amount of sleep and finding the bedtime that. Keeps them rested and there is quite a wide range of how much each child might, how much children, how much sleep children need in the 24 hour period. And so, um, it's finding what kind of where in that range your child is, and then maybe moving bedtime gradually earlier, um, to find that sweet spot. And what I also find, um, And that's also supported by the research is that sometimes what we think of as that last nap of the day, um, for babies, um, might actually be their bedtime. And so sometimes the baby would nap and then be pretty wired and not go to sleep until much later. And so what we can try is kind of treat that waking as, as a waking and not as. Um, uh, and see if gradually the time that they go down for the nap would become their new bedtime. Okay. Yeah, I remember, I forget what age my daughter was, but I ended up putting her to bed at 7 p. m. and I would just go to sleep with her. I remember going to sleep at 7 p. m. because she would We had a very rough time with sleep and she would sleep for four hours for the first sleep of, you know, stretch of the night. And then I would just sleep, try to get that sleep too. So it looks like I only have a minute and 30 seconds left of my, my zoom plans recording. And so just rounding out the sleep topic, you have kind of a controversial opinion on sound machines compared to what the normal advice is. Can you explain that? Cause I ended up using one for my daughter and it seemed like it did actually soothe her. So what did I get that wrong? No, not necessarily, but I think it's what I would do is be mindful of the volume because actually, a recent study tested many commercially available sound machines and found that some of them really exceeded the limits that are considered safe for babies. And so it's more being mindful of where you put it. And then, you know, Um, the author suggested not putting it close to the baby because if, especially if you're trying to block the outside noise and that if that's the goal is putting it closer to the source of the noise. So it might be the window if you're blocking, say, traffic outside, or maybe it's the door if you're trying to block rambunctious older siblings or pets. Um, noises coming into the room. And so I think that's the piece that not very many people know is that you don't want this out machine on high volume, right placed right next to the baby. And then the other thing is some babies sleep just fine without, and so it might not be necessary, which would make traveling and, you know, sleeping elsewhere easy, more easily for the family. Thank you. Okay. One thing on your covers in her book that we didn't get to talk much about is screen time. So I'm going to have my phone here and read a couple of things I wanted to cover with her, but we didn't get to., So a lot of people think that there are educational shows for their babies and they'll put their four month old in front of baby Einsteins or something. And that's actually not the case. It's not actually. It's not actually doing much for your baby. So, , she talks about. Several negatives for screen time, and these are less interaction. So babies. Are not interacting with their adults or other children. There's less free movement. There's less learning. So babies begin to grasp the laws of physics by recognizing patterns in daily life. The television world. However, it does not have the same laws and real life of all moving to the right will continue to move to the right until it stops a ball on a screen, moving the right may disappear from view only to reappear on the left. To continue to the right word motion to continue the right word motion and an edited action sequence. Watching screens does not help babies learn about the world around them. Another negative is less central sensory integration. Sensory input coming from the screen is not as coordinated as in real life. For example, watching a flower on a screen does not allow a baby to experience the full sensations of touching and smelling a real flower. Learning is harder without a complete picture. I think in the interview on, you mentioned that sensory integration is a really key part of how babies learn. So seeing. And hearing something at the same time in the real word world is a real key. For having them. Learn. She said, essentially these are lost opportunities. Are they significant though? And the answer is they can be depending on how much screen time, baby skit. According to a large survey, three month old on average watch about an hour each day. This might not seem like much, but babies of this age, sleep for 16 or more hours per day and spend another three or so hours feeding and being changed and dressed. That means that screen time takes up almost a quarter of their awake time. I considerable portion. So what about positive effects? What about the educational benefits claimed by the producers? The problem is even if it shows content can be considered educational babies are not developmentally ready to understand it. It's a demanding cognitive activity. She goes on to say she has a very poignant, um, graphic in her book. That list the negative effects and has a column for positive effects where she lists none. The last thing that I wanted to talk about with Anya that we didn't get to cover is intuition. And I thought that was a really nice tie-in to what this show is all about., a lot of times as a mom, you. Read a bunch of parenting information that you may or may not. It just might not sit right with you. And so you kind of rely on your gut instinct or that intuition inside of you to figure out what your baby needs, because your baby is different. I know he knows your baby as well as you do. And so she says a couple of things. She says intuition is a true form of knowledge because it comes from the way our brains store process and retrieve memories. In essence. We subconsciously call on information from past experiences stored. And our memory and combine it to draw new conclusions. Highly intuitive people extract the maximum amount of significance from the available information because they see meaning in details. Others may overlook. So intuition is the synthesis of experiences we carry with us. But where do these experiences come from? In the context of raising babies, they could be the product of careful observation, our cultural biases and fads. The interesting part that she says is that these sources are not equally reliable, depending on the source. Intuition can be accurate, but it can also be very wrong. I think that's interesting because a lot of us seem to think of our intuition as a kind of Bulletproof way or PR you know, radar to assess. We know what to do, or, you know, a feeling about a thing. And it could be that it is a, gut reaction based on some. Cultural or, , Societal. Fad that's going on and maybe your brain processes that and puts it into the, put in it, pulls it out of you as, as your gut feeling., so it's possible that you could beat your duration could be wrong, but I think a lot of the times when it comes to knowing who our baby is and how to take care of it, I think it's probably right., so those are the things I wanted to cover outside of the conversation I had with Anya. The book is great. I really highly recommend it. And I wanted to also know where to find Anya because she didn't get the chance to, , tell us herself. So you can connect with Anya through her website, kid collegey.com. Or check her out on Facebook and Instagram. She also has the book that we mentioned, baby cology, using science and intuition to create the best feeding, sleep and play environment for a year. Unique baby it's available on Amazon, a variety of ebook retailers, and can always be ordered through local bookstores or checked out at the library. So please do go ahead and check out Anya. I don't think you'll regret it. And, If you like this podcast, go ahead and like, and subscribe. If you're on YouTube, maybe leave me a review on apple podcasts or Spotify. That would help me a ton., you can also check out my other episodes., if you're watching YouTube, you can click on the playlist. That's going to come up. At the end of the video. Thanks so much. See you next time.