Tenants, Landlords, Evictions and Right to Counsel

Cincinnati and Dayton have some of the highest rates of eviction filings in the nation. And with rents continuing to rise, it’s unclear when those evictions will start slowing down. On this episode of Brick by Brick we examine one possible solution that could even the playing field in eviction court. It’s called Right to Counsel, or the right of a tenant to be represented in court. Dayton is starting a pilot program to either help keep people in their homes or at least avoid an eviction on their record.  Does Right to Counsel work and is it worth it? Some landlords are open to the idea.

Interview guests: National eviction researcher Tim Thomas, officials from Cleveland and Philadelphia: cities seeing success from Right to Counsel

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Transcript

Ann Thompson:

Renters are having trouble staying in their homes. Why? With the average rent in Dayton at $1,100 per month and in Cincinnati $1400, many more renters in both areas are spending a lot of their income more than 30% on housing. That means more than 40% of renters in both markets are cost burdened or severely cost burdened.

Deion Crawford:

Rent is too high and more people need to be lenient against people that's hardworking.

Sarah Prestridge:

I wish there was more information available for tenants who are at the beginning, in the middle, even towards the end of an eviction process.

Sandy Bryant :

Every time I see something being built, it's something that who affords that in Dayton, Ohio?

Ann Thompson:

But landlords have rights too and need to be able to make money.

Eric Moorehouse:

If you're property owner and someone refuses to pay rent for whatever reason, circumstance, you try to work with them, but there can be a point where, I mean, if this is your livelihood, then you have to be able to evict people.

Ann Thompson:

So what's the solution to either keep people in their homes or negotiate a move without an eviction on their records? Cleveland and a handful of other cities have a plan in place.

Melanie Shakarian:

We believe that having full representation for a right to counsel has been very important because we're able to dig into other pretty significant issues of poverty and justice by seeing that totality of a case.

Ann Thompson:

Today on the pod. We're looking at the right to counsel or the right of a tenant to have an attorney when facing eviction. Does it work and is it worth it? Let's get into it. This is Brick by Brick Solutions for a thriving community.

Ame Clase:

Brick by Brick is made possible thanks to leading support from t e Debra and Robert Chavez and Greater Cincinnati Foundation. With additional major support from AES Ohio Foundation, Laurie Johnston; Susan Howarth Foundation, the George and Margaret McLane Foundation, Diane and Dave Moccia, The Dayton Foundation, the Robert & Adelle Schiff Family Foundation, and more. Thank you.

Ann Thompson:

Hi, and welcome to Brick by Brick, where we're highlighting solutions for a thriving community in southwest Ohio. I'm your host Ann Thompson. There are many challenges related to housing and housing stability, and that's where we're continuing to focus our coverage for the region. More and more people are renting 61% in Cincinnati and 53% in Dayton because buying a home is out of reach for many right now and the rent keeps going up, an average 30% nationally since the pandemic Peg Dierkers is CEO of Bethany House, one of the only shelters for families in the area.

Peg Dierkers:

Families who are coming to us are earning more so people are becoming homeless at higher and higher levels of income because rents are becoming so extraordinarily expensive.

Ann Thompson:

According to the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio, the average Dayton renter has to earn nearly $19 an hour to afford a basic two bedroom apartment. In Cincinnati, it's $21 an hour. Part of the problem is there aren't enough apartments. According to reporting from Dayton Daily News, there was a 38% drop in the number of new units coming on the Dayton market from last year to this year. A shortage of housing is also a problem in Cincinnati where from 2010 to 2020, only a third of Cincinnati neighborhoods added housing and some even lost housing. That's a problem because more than 90% of the current ones are occupied. As we told you in episode three on zoning, the city of Minneapolis has been building more apartments each year and that's what has kept rents there, basically flat for seven years, but across the country and here in southwest Ohio, the reality is evictions are rising.

Court personnel:

9:30 eviction docket is now in session. The Honorable Magistrate Melissa West presiding

Ann Thompson:

After a pause during the pandemic evictions have now surged back up the Eviction Lab, a Princeton University-based research group tracking evictions nationwide ranks Dayton 26th in the nation for having the most evictions. Cincinnati is 46th. Last year they were approximately 6,500 eviction filings in Montgomery County and 13,000 in Hamilton County. Also, of note in our area, Butler County had the second highest eviction rate in the state at 10 evictions filed for every 100 renters and many agree that eviction rates are under counted possibly by as much as 40 to 50% because not all evictions go through court. One Cincinnati woman we spoke with who asked us not to share her name, had her lease terminated without warning over a year ago.

Anonymous woman:

It was like the people that owned the property had the upper hand. You really didn't have any rights. If they wanted you off their property, they had the right to just say, we are no longer going to sign your lease.

Ann Thompson:

And after a year of sleeping on relatives and friends couches, she is still looking for a home. Another important aspect to consider about this topic, when we talk about evictions, experts say it's children, black women and Latinx affected the most director of the Eviction Research Network. Tim Thomas uses computer modeling to drill down. Much of his in-depth research has been centered in Seattle, which is mostly white, but even there he saw the racial disparities,

Tim Thomas:

Black and Latinx households that were there had exorbitant amount of evictions. Black women in certain cases were facing eviction seven times higher than white women and Latinx households were facing eviction 40 times more.

Ann Thompson:

Sinclair Community College Sociology Professor Kathy Rowell partners with Thomas to document eviction filings by race in Dayton, just like Seattle, Latinx experienced the most eviction filings followed by blacks and she says there are health ramifications even if you aren't the person being evicted. Rowell cites Ohio State research.

Kathy Rowell:

It shows the long-term mental health effects of families that even if you don't face an eviction, but living in a neighborhood with high eviction rates takes a mental health toll, especially on black women and their children.

Ann Thompson:

The study says it's especially harmful to pregnant women who in this study suffered psychological distress 68% of the time. This kind of stress has long-term impacts from many parents and children, and even if you have good reason to fight an eviction, it can be overwhelming and confusing. To navigate the court system, we go through it step by step on the brick by brick webpages. Check those out at CT and think tv.org. A big advantage for landlords is that most have a lawyer representing them in court and all LLCs or landlords listed as limited liability companies have to be represented per state law, but only about 10% of tenants have an attorney. Deborah Lavey knows this statistic all too well. The senior attorney with Advocates For Basic Legal Equality or ABLE is preparing to start a right to counsel pilot program in Dayton.

Deborah Lavey:

Typically, in 90% of the cases tenants, when they have a lawyer, they either win their case or they end up with a favorable outcome.

Ann Thompson:

Right to counsel is the right to be represented by an attorney from start to finish in an eviction case, Lavy knows one stumbling block to starting this program is cost

Deborah Lavey:

Wouldn't cover all of Montgomery County, but would cover a segment of Montgomery County and with the hope of growing that throughout the entire county,

Ann Thompson:

Lavey and ABLE say with right to counsel, they hope to give some of the power back to the tenant that the landlord currently holds. Among the dozens and dozens of people going through eviction court every day in southwest Ohio is one woman who told her story to brick by bricks. Hernz Laguerre Jr. Who joins me now? Hey, Hernz. So we've been talking about how right to counsel would or could help protect tenants rights, but how?

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Yeah, what difference does having a lawyer make for a tenant, right?

Ann Thompson:

It could make a big difference.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Well, we can see that difference in the story of Alice Raymond. She's a day in resident who has dealt with housing insecurity and face eviction filings firsthand before becoming a tennis right advocate herself. Let's take a listen.

Alice's child:

Ducky ducky, ducky, ducky,

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Ducky, Alice Raymond, single mother of four takes a routine trip to feed some ducks with her kids not too far from the house. 

Alice Raymond:

Try to keep some sort of routine to where it's some kind of normal saying. Our housing situation haven't been so normal.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Alice had faced housing insecurity for years and was desperate to find a place to live for her family. In December of 2022, she found a duplex in Dayton and when she tried to use her housing voucher, she ran into some complications

Alice Raymond:

So it didn't pass inspection from the outside. That meant for me is I couldn't use that voucher.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

So to secure housing, Alice had no other choice.

Alice Raymond:

I was already living in a hotel and spending, I'm talking $1500 a month just to stay housed. They offered me to pay the market price rent until they were able to pass inspection. I'd rather pay 900 than 1500 and yeah, I took it,

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

But no major repairs are made and the duplex never passed inspection.

Alice Raymond:

Man, the conditions, where do I start? I mean I had plumbing issues to where the toilet wouldn't flush, the tub wouldn't drain and the sink wouldn't drain. I had some electrical issues. I had foundation issues as well. My front door didn't have a doorknob, rodents infestation. My basement would flood if it rained too hard because it didn't have a sump pump. Yeah, much, much more.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

I'm curious how the kids would describe this space. What were those conversations like?

Alice Raymond:

They call it the bug house. A lot of questions. Why do we have this? Why is this not working? Whatever I went through, they went through as well.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Alice reached out to the landlord multiple times to make repairs, but they didn't happen, so she did what all tenants have the ability to do. She filed for rent escrow. That's when tenants pay rent into a court held account until the landlord makes needed repairs.

Alice Raymond:

Before I knew it then came the eviction for nonpayment. By that time though, I had already paid two months into the court, so I was confused why they were even able to process an eviction.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

The courts ended up combining her escrow hearing with her eviction hearing. Initially, Alice didn't have any representation.

Alice Raymond:

It was coming down to the wire to the end where I'm like, okay, I'm not going to be able to find any representation, so I need to be as prepared as I can be to go into the courtroom and represent myself. So that's what I was like, let me look up YouTube and see what I can find on YouTube.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

But YouTube can't take you as far as a lawyer can. So the day in Tenants Union, a grassroots group fighting for housing rights, she was able to connect with attorney Sarah Weber from ABEL Advocates for Basic Legal Authority.

Alice Raymond:

She was the answer to my prayer. Not only is she a bomb attorney and she knows that side, but she's here, she's real, and she understood what I was saying. She understood exactly what issues I was dealing with and how to go about it.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

What difference does it make having a lawyer in the room representing a tenant versus a tenant who does not have a lawyer in the room?

Sarah Weber:

It definitely gives the tenant a voice and a certain amount of respect. When Alice went to her first hearing, it was the second time that the landlord never showed up, and if a tenant doesn't show up for an eviction, they just grant the case. They don't continue it.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Sarah was able to help navigate the court proceedings.

Sarah Weber:

There was technical issues with who was present because the landlord, the owner is actually an out-of- state person and they did not come and they sent somebody who the attorney themselves didn't really know who they were. The company itself did not register to do business in Ohio, number one. So there was a lot of objection that way.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

After going through hearings for a couple of months, Sarah was able to get Alice a favorable outcome.

Sarah Weber:

The eviction was handled first because they dismissed because she wasn't behind in rent. So escrow you can request for all the conditions to be fixed. You can request to be let out of the lease early. So we had requested that the lease, she was given 30 days, she was able to stay in the property rent free, have the rent escrow that she had escrowed released back to her and then she moved out in December.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Do you think it would've been dismissed without Sarah Weber?

Alice Raymond:

No.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Why is that?

Alice Raymond:

I feel like they probably would've came up with another excuse or another reason, even though not allowed. It would've been allowed if I didn't have my representation.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

If you weren't there, what would've happened to Alice?

Sarah Weber:

Alice is very good at representing herself, but I mean there are certain things like the very technical issues would be harder to address.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Plus a lawyer's able to keep the court accountable and have them adhere to a tenant's rights.

Sarah Weber:

Evidence is always being presented by a witness or some sort of documentation. That's what evidence is. Evidence isn't what's coming out of my mouth, but there are plenty of courts that just allow the attorney to come in without their client and provide the evidence that way, and then evict these tenants.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

And in a place like Montgomery County, which saw a nearly 40% increase in eviction filing since the height of the pandemic, adding rights accounts as tenants’ rights would make a difference. Deborah Lavey is a senior attorney at Abel. She shares what a right to counsel program would do for Dayton.

Deborah Lavey:

I think it was back in 2023, the filing rates. There were some studies done about filing rates across the country and Dayton had the fifth highest eviction filing rate in the state. So yeah, there's a lot of cases, but what we do see when there are effective right to council programs is we see the filings going down

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

And with filings going down, there may be more stable households allowing tenants to focus on what really matters.

Alice Raymond :

We are talking about why tenant protections is so important and that's because it allows people to stay in one area to even be able to build a sense of community.

Ann Thompson :

We're back in the studio now. Hearns being that right to council isn't established yet in Dayton. What can tenants do to help themselves if they don't have a lawyer like Alice did?

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Yeah, both Deborah and Sarah and even Alice shared with me some simple solutions. First, be proactive and voice your concerns early. If you're in the same situation as Alice and you want to file for escrow, you need to first give the landlord a certified letter, which gives them 30 days to reply. So being early on and stuff like that is important. Second document, document and document. Document when you voice your concerns, document the pictures that you take of the conditions that you might be facing and even document some stuff in writing so you can present that to court. All of that stuff could help you in these hearings, but after speaking with Alice, after speaking with the lawyers from Abel, honestly there's nothing that beats having a lawyer in the room because not only do they remind the tenants of their rights, but they also hold the court accountable so that they could adhere to those rights as well.

Ann Thompson:

Thanks for that Hernz, because you gave a lot of very detailed information and it might've been a lot to take in. Just know that we're going to have that on our website at both cetconnect.org and think tv.org. Yes, we will. Alright, Hernz, we'll talk to you later for the takeaways.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Sounds good.

Ann Thompson:

With this type of problem and the right to counsel solution, I'm sure you're wondering what about the property owner in all of this? We agree. To gain that perspective. We go to president of the Dayton Real Estate Investors Association, Mike Frye, who's a landlord himself. He says communication is key with his tenants so it doesn't get to the eviction stage.

Mike Frye:

I don't want residents to feel like they are at the bottom of the stack and they understand that the housing provider is just as responsible and has just as many issues going on them that they do as residents.

Ann Thompson:

One issue is the mortgage and the possible threat of foreclosure if the landlord is late paying the bank. If a tenant is having trouble paying the rent Frye wants to know about it early on before filing an eviction. In our conversations with Frye and other housing providers they aren’t dismissing Right to Counsel outright as a solution. But they do have concerns. The Real Estate Investors Association of Greater Cincinnati told a  Cincinnati City Council Committee Right to Counsel has- quote-shown to drastically  increase the time to process and complete an eviction, leading to an increase in application standards and a default premium of rental increases-unquote. Spokesperson Deborah Collins says early intervention through mediation and rent relief are much better solutions. She says eviction is a last resort. Frye agrees. 

Mike Frye:

Most housing providers do not want to have anything to do with evictions because evictions cost money and they really would like to have a good resident who keeps the property clean and pays the rent.

Ann Thompson:

Following our conversations with Frye, he said he's interested in creating a new education program for both the tenant and the landlord as one way to prevent evictions. As Dayton landlords learn more we’ll keep you updated on their perspectives. We've been exploring the potential for Right to Counsel so far in Dayton, but there are more cities who are actually doing it and making a big impact when we come back on Brick by Brick, what Cleveland and Philadelphia are learning from their right to counsel initiatives, but first, let's keep it local. Up next, we'll explore what Cincinnati is doing with its own access to counsel program, how that compares and what it would take for Cincy to get to right to counsel too.

Nick Zingarelli:

We're talking about giving every tenant the opportunity to at least have representation for when they're having their at least one day in court. I think that actually can be done.

Ann Thompson:

That's ahead on Brick by Brick.

Ame Clase:

Brick by Brick is made possible thanks to the generous support of so many, including Murray & Agnes

Seasongood Good Government Foundation, Rosmary & Mark Schlachter, The Camden Foundation, Patti & Fred Heldman, DeeDee & Gary West, The Stephen H. Wilder Foundation, Judith & Thomas

Thompson... a donation in memory of Frank and Margaret Linhardt, and more. Thank you. We couldn't do this work without you.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Hey, it's Hernz Laguerre Jr., one of the team members behind Brick by Brick. Our new show is about solutions for a thriving community, but if you think about it, we all have a different perspective of what a thriving community should look like. That's why we need to hear from you. We want to know what a thriving community looks like to you. Maybe it's more housing, more parks or stores or even safer sidewalks. Whatever your vision, we hope you'll share with us. You can do that by heading to the Brick by Brick show page on cetconnect.org or think tv.org. There you'll find an audience question button just fill out the survey in. That's it. We look forward to sharing your hopes and dreams with the rest of our neighbors in future episodes. Thank you.

Ann Thompson:

Welcome back to Brick By Brick. Cincinnati is scaling up access to counsel with more legal aid funding and rental assistance on the way. Access to counsel is different than Right to counsel. Access to counsel is having access to a Legal Aid lawyer if there is one available and frequently there aren't any just too many people in need and too few attorneys, but access to Counsel is more than Cincinnati had last year. It was passed by City Council in December and is just one piece of attendance Bill of rights that Cincinnati Councilmember Meeka Owens has been working on.

Councilmember Meeka Owens:

When you have an attorney standing there with you to understand the legalese and everything that is happening in a court environment whereas a layperson does not, it can make a difference in the outcome of that proceeding

Ann Thompson:

On the day. Brick by Brick interviewed council member Owens, she took part in an event put on by uc, professor and attorney Nixon Garelli who runs the Help Center in Hamilton County. The Help Center is at the courthouse and offers free information for both tenants and landlords. Once a month, Zingarelli invites the public to witness eviction court and then debriefs them. Each hearing doesn't last very long.

Nick Zingarelli:

It's lightning fast. These dockets happen twice a day at 9:30 and 10:30 Monday through Friday. A typical hearing will last 45 seconds.

Ann Thompson:

Zingarelli agrees. Having an attorney makes all the difference and would like to see his law students step up in a Right to counsel program so every eligible tenant has an attorney at least to represent them one day in court.

Nick Zingarelli:

What it's going to take is investment in somebody that would be able to oversee that specific program and then getting student buy-in because students can represent people in court if they have a limited license and they're under the supervision of an attorney who can then watch over them during those proceedings.

Ann Thompson:

As part of the city's research Councilmember, Owens contacted Cleveland to find out how right to counsel works there. So did Brick by Brick attorney Melanie Shakarian with the Legal Aid Society of Cleveland says the city has seen a drop in EV and she believes their Right to Counsel program started in 2020 is one reason.

Melanie Shakarian:

So last year we helped 5,372 Cleveland residents who asserted a right to counsel in 1,470 housing cases.

Ann Thompson:

To be eligible renters must meet 100% of the federal poverty guidelines for a family of four. That's about $31,000 and have at least one child in the home. United Way of Greater Cleveland is a partner with Legal Aid on right to Counsel. Ken Surratt says the program also helps uncover underlying issues like how 83% of participants said they didn't pay rent because of bad conditions in the home.

Ken Surratt:

Okay, well if that's the issue, what do we need to do to address that? Is it code enforcement by the city or is it lack of resources to make those home repairs?

Ann Thompson:

Cleveland is looking into expanding its right to council program. Shakarian says studies show not only is it working, but it is saving the city money.

Melanie Shakarian:

We're investing public and private dollars in this $3.5 million budget to allow people to have a right to counsel in eviction cases and our independent evaluator estimated that Cleveland and Cuyahoga County likely realized a combined economic benefit between 11.8 million and 14 million.”

Ann Thompson:

In case you're counting, that's between a 300% and 400% return on investment for the city. Part of the challenge for them is getting the word out to those eligible to have an attorney. In 2022 Cleveland Legal Aid represented about 80% of those eligible. That's up from 60% in 2021, so they are seeing improvement as awareness grows. Cleveland isn't the only city with right to counsel. New York City was the first in 2017, followed by a handful of other places including Philadelphia.

Kadeem Morris:

I'm Kadeem Morris. I'm the co-managing attorney of the housing unit here at Community Legal Services of Philadelphia. I'm in charge of the implementation of Right to Counsel for the city.

Ann Thompson:

Kadeem Morris says arguably eviction rates are still horrible, but they were even worse before Philadelphia started Right to counsel and a handful of other eviction prevention programs in 2022, including diversion.

Kadeem Morris:

We went from I think 20,000 to maybe 14,000 in the first full year since the diversion program started and the numbers are still going down because the program works and people often need that support and not necessarily a court process.

Ann Thompson:

Here's what the city has rental assistance and mandatory mediation between the landlord and the tenant if the landlord wants to go through a court ordered eviction. In addition, the city has a courtroom navigator if a renter just needs an attorney for a day as well as right to counsel, which again means an attorney represents eligible residents for their entire eviction case. In Philadelphia, eligibility is based on zip code and income with folks making up to 200% of the federal poverty level qualifying in certain zip codes. Morris considers right to counsel as just one tool in the toolkit and not a golden key to prevent evictions. He really likes the mandatory diversion program.

Kadeem Morris:

If we don't need to have a congested court system where it feels like you're being rushed and if we don't need to send someone into that system unnecessarily just to ask for help, then that's a great intervention point that should happen and I think that's the goal.

Ann Thompson:

Here's something else. Philadelphia has also passed what it calls the Renter's Access Act. It creates uniform screening criteria for applicant's rental and credit history. For example, before accepting an application, landlords have to provide the applicant with the written or electronic uniform screening criteria. It doesn't say they have to ignore all eviction records, but they also can't have a blanket exclusion policy against people who've been evicted. So that's another solution that could be layered in. Both Philadelphia and Cleveland. Say there was some pushback from landlords in the beginning, but with rental assistance available and a renter's attorney to speed up the case in court, many have come on board. Remember, if you're interested in learning more about Brick by Brick and want to read articles, hear the podcast and see Hernz's video stories or online extras, go to cetconnect.org and think tv.org. And while you're there, click on one of the big green buttons to give us some feedback or answer our current audience question. We'd love to hear from you.

Ann Thompson:

We're joined once again by Brick by Brick journalist Herger Jr. And a new member to our team Emiko Moore. Welcome. 

Emiko Moore:

Thank you

Ann Thompson:

So much and just to tell you a little bit about her, Emiko is our multimedia journalist based in Dayton. For years you've worked at NBC writing and field producing stories that many of you may have seen on the Nightly News on the Today Show and more, and we welcome again you to the studio.

Emiko Moore:

Thank you very much. It's great to be here with both of you. These last few weeks have been great. You've been so helpful.

Ann Thompson:

Thank you. Emiko, this is the part of the show where we like to reflect on some of our takeaways from this solution story. You helped us with much of this reporting. Would you like to get us started this time?

Emiko Moore:

Sure. We did do a lot of research on this. 

Ann Thompson:

What Kind of resonated with you?

Emiko Moore:

 I think right to counsel I think could be a long-term beneficial tool in preventing unnecessary evictions. We see a lot of evictions that are coming to these courts and I think if tenants and are better informed about what the laws and rules are, what are their rights and what are their responsibilities as a tenant too, they're better equipped to step into the courtroom and really kind of navigate that space because they really don't know. How do you present evidence? How do you know that you can read about that? You can go somewhere and kind of study notes, but once you step into a courtroom, you're there. There's a way to talk to the magistrate. There's a way to talk to the lawyers. There's a way to present evidence. You need photographs. You don't need post-It notes. You can't bring your phone in, so there's a lot of things that can help the tenant with their case and fight unfair evictions and it helps I think the landlord as well because it's going to make sure they're not going to take cases that aren't right that shouldn't be there. In the courts.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Deborah and Sarah was telling me from Abel that being that the landlord has a lawyer and if the tenant were to have a lawyer too, most of the time they're able to speak maybe even before the hearings to possibly get a resolution before the hearings actually start. So I think it is a program that could help all parties on top of that, it can help the city save money too. Eviction costs everybody, so if we're able to avoid that, it saves the city money from not having to deal with the displaced families in the first place. And then one other thing I wanted to mention was that we have to remember that right to council is a downstream solution, right? There's so many things upstream that could help just stable employment, rental assistance. These are all things that could help tenants handle costs so that they don't even get to eviction in the first place. 

Ann Thompson:

And I think that's definitely the landlord's prerogative too, to work everything out upstream. What kind of stuck out to me in this episode was there was just so much data. We realized that there are many sources that can help us get numbers. We were particularly looking to see if eviction numbers were declining, we needed to compare apples to apples. That was a little bit difficult and we realized that if we had data more upstream that might be more beneficial to people. In fact, Cincinnati, and we're going to tell you about this maybe in an upcoming episode this summer, Cincinnati is going to use artificial intelligence to try to get some of that upstream information to keep people in their homes because that is way cheaper to keep somebody in their homes rather than to get them rehoused. Good comments, guys. Thanks for your input, Emiko we're really looking forward to your reporting. 

Hernz Laguerre Jr:

Welcome to the team.

Emiko Moore:

Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to doing more reporting with all of you.

Ann Thompson:

Thanks guys. No problem. Coming up on the next episode of Brick By Brick, how reducing the mandatory number of parking spaces required in new or old buildings can potentially impact our neighborhoods and our housing situation.

Tony Ferrari: 

And now with no parking requirements, there should be no reason why we can't have more small businesses open up and retail. There's just so much opportunity here,

Ann Thompson:

But some communities worry about the effects of this part of Cincinnati's newly proposed zoning reforms.

Ben Pantoja :

We already have a good business district, the right balance, I think, of available parking and this could flip things so that we don't have enough parking.

Ann Thompson:

That's next time on Brick By Brick. That's our show. If you like what you hear, please rate and review our podcast. It helps making finding the pod a little easier. We hope you learned something, and if you did, please share it with your friends and family for Hernz Laguerre Jr. and Emiko Moore. I'm Ann Thompson. We'll be back soon with more solutions. Take care.

Our show is produced, hosted an edited by me, Ann Thompson with reporting and story editing from Hernz Laguerre Jr. and Emiko Moore. Our Executive producer of Mark Lammers. Our show consultant is Gloria Skurski. Gabe Wimberly is our audio engineer and mixer. Zach Kramer runs the lights and cameras. Derrick Smith is our production specialist and Jason Garrison is our production manager. Kellie May heads up our marketing and promotions, along with Mike Shea and Bridgett Dillenburger. Elyssa Stefenson handles the website and Steve Wright is our designer. Bill Dean and Andres Kruza are the engineers for the show and our Chief Content Officer is Colin Scianamblo. Our music is from Universal Production Music. Brick by Brick: Solutions for a Thriving Community is a production of CET and ThinkTV, Southwest Ohio PBS member stations.