Can Backyard Cottages Fill A Gap In Housing?

We don’t have enough houses or apartments. However, plenty of people may have extra space in their house for a separate garage, attic or basement apartment. And they might even be able to build a separate structure in their backyard. California, Oregon and Washington states have built an estimated 100,000 of these, so-called-Accessory Dwelling Units or ADUs. They are now legal in Cincinnati and conditional in Dayton. Can these structures ramp up here to help fill the housing gap?

Interview guests: ADU expert Kol Peterson, Miami University Assistant Architecture Professor Jeff Kruth, KeyBank Vice President Kenya Taylor, UC Berkeley researcher Mohammed Alameldin

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Transcript

Ann Thompson:

Southwest Ohio and Northern Kentucky are getting bigger, expected to grow by more than a half million people in the next 25 years. How do you quickly add more housing without changing the character of the neighborhood? One incremental way is to build a backyard cottage.

Kol Peterson:

It's kind of this social opportunity that bakes in all this flexibility and options to utilize your property in ways that a single family house doesn't.

Ann Thompson:

You've probably heard of them, granny flats, mother-in-law apartments, carriage houses, or the strange sounding accessory dwelling unit or ADU. It can be a separate apartment in a garage or attic or a building behind a house.

Muhammed Alameldin:

By building more housing, you allow more people to live in homes and it creates competition in the market.

Ann Thompson:

It can also increase the property value and bring in additional income for the homeowner.

Jeff Rosa:

Anytime you're adding an element of space to your home, adding a bedroom, adding a bathroom, adding a living room, okay, any of those kind of things that you're doing, you are not going to lower your property value.

Ann Thompson:

Cincinnati is the first major city in Ohio to legalize these backyard cottages and slowly people are wondering what difference they could make.

Jeffrey Kruth:

It's not going to solve all of the affordable housing issues that we have, but it's a nice kind of option within this maybe broader set of practices.

Ann Thompson:

Dayton also allows them on a conditional basis,. They could be a solution to having your aging parents on your property or your kids who can't afford to buy a house yet.

Kenya Taylor:

We saw it a lot when people came over first to the America where families live together and then now everybody's kind of spread out and we're seeing where we're kind of going back to that multi-generational family living

Ann Thompson:

On this episode we look at ADUs and whether they can fill a gap in housing and what effect they're having in primarily West Coast cities where they're extremely popular. We talked to a Portland, Oregon advocate who lives in one and why a Berkeley study says they're not accessible for many communities of color and later in the pod how to pay for one. While their costs range, they can still be a sizable investment, so let's get into it. This is brick by brick Solutions for a thriving community.

Ame Clase:

Brick by Brick is made possible thanks to leading support from t e Debra and Robert Chavez and Greater Cincinnati Foundation. With additional major support from AES Ohio Foundation, Laurie Johnston; Susan Howarth Foundation, the George and Margaret McLane Foundation, Diane and Dave Moccia, The Dayton Foundation, the Robert & Adelle Schiff Family Foundation, and more. Thank you.

Ann Thompson:

Hi, and welcome to Brick by Brick, where we're highlighting solutions for a thriving community in Southwest Ohio. I'm your host Ann Thompson. Backyard cottages are illegal in most of the United States, but not on the West coast where they make up an estimated one fifth of California's new housing supply. And in Portland, Oregon, an early adopter, residents build about 600 every year. Let's be honest, it's hard to estimate just how many of these cottage houses or granny flats there are in the United States because the concept of relatives living with you or homeowners renting out space goes back hundreds of years. The government says there are one and a half million informal ADUs, meaning they don't necessarily have a permit, but a recent study from buildinganadu.com says that's wildly inaccurate and estimates there are only 110,000 legal ones in the US and most of them are in California, Oregon, and Washington. Last year, Cincinnati made them legal. A proposal from Councilmember Mark Jeffreys.

Councilmember Mark Jeffreys:

This will mean more housing. It will mean more families able to live together. It will mean more folks who are disabled be able to live independently near their houses or their homes. Ultimately, it means stronger families and stronger neighborhoods.

Ann Thompson:

There are rules on how big it can be, and you can find those on our website at cetconnect.org and thinktv.org. Jeffreys told counsel, he proposed the idea for three reasons, the need for more housing, the ability to age in place, and as a way to increase homeowner wealth. He did hear concerns about out-of-Town landlords and wanted to limit that.

Councilmember Mark Jeffreys:

There are provisions in there that do require either home ownership or what is termed responsible party, which is a private, independent person, and I think it's important to note that if someone violates those provisions, it is a $15,000 fine, not $50, a hundred dollars, and I think it's important to note that here because we want that message to get out to institutional investors or any bad actors who will intend to try to work around these rules.

Ann Thompson:

Requiring homeowners to live on the property is a problem for some, but we'll get to that in just a minute. With aging in-Laws Miami University architecture, professor Jeffrey Kruth started thinking about backyard cottages and wrote an article about them. He sees them as a yes in my backyard development part of the YIMBY movement to allow more density.

Jeffrey Kruth:

Cincinnati absolutely is struggling with affordability issues and a lot of these other kinds of issues that we're talking about. I think it's nice as an option to have within the zoning code because it does provide for that flexibility, particularly if we're thinking about intergenerational living. If we're thinking about densifying areas promoting just variety of lifestyles,

Ann Thompson:

We checked with surrounding townships in Southwest Ohio and most don't allow ADUs. If they do, it's conditional. That means the homeowner needs approval from the planning commission or the zoning appeals board to build an ADU. This is different from Cincinnati, which says anybody as long as they follow the specifications can build one on their property. Kruth has been watching development of these smaller living spaces across the United States and noticed the cities that require the owner to live on site are not seeing a sizable increase in backyard cottage building.

Jeffrey Kruth:

Minneapolis is a place where they have that. They have the kind of the owner occupant requirement and they've not seen these things take off in a way that they kind of hoped they would. Whereas the city of Seattle recently, I think they had ADUs on the books for some time, and in 2019 they kind of revised their code to not require the owner occupant to live on site, and they've since seen kind of a big uptick.

Ann Thompson:

Kruth says what also makes it easier is to have a pre-approved pattern housing book or selection of already approved ADU templates that homeowners can select their ADU from that can shorten the city approval process and make it cheaper. He sees backyard cottages as one potential tool for communities to add housing but not as a cure. All the man known as Mr. ADU Cole Peterson says this kind of housing transformed his life. The Portland Oregon advocate lives in one, has written a book on them and advises others. He says it's definitely worth it, but it might be the most challenging thing you do after having a child.

Kol Peterson:

You have to learn this entire new skillset that you've never done before. You have to become a zoning expert. You have to become a financing expert. You have to learn all about the design of especially difficult things to design. That is small homes, and then you have to be a general contractor, then you have to be a landlord.

Ann Thompson:

Peterson says this type of housing as to the supply of lower cost units to phrase the exaggerated cost of larger homes adds to urban infill and allows people to live in more desirable areas that they want to live. He predicts explosive growth in Colorado and Washington in the coming years because of recent statewide reforms in those places. Those states allow the owner to live offsite and don't require additional parking. Listen to Brick by Brick, episode six on how fewer parking spots can create more housing and business. Peterson says most in the Midwest and the entire East Coast have really bad regulations when it comes to supporting ADUs. When he looked at Cincinnati's, he praised the city for not requiring parking but didn't like the owner occupancy rule.

Kol Peterson:

You are tethered to this property for the rest of your life. If you build an ADU that is a poison pill. That's the number one poison pill in most codes in the country. So it's not atypical. It's not uncommon, but it's extremely prohibitive and I would never build a DU if that code was in effect in my market.

Ann Thompson:

He says, not everybody wants to live on the property. They might want to winter in another part of the country, or if they move permanently, they might want to collect rent from both housing units. Peterson says backyard cottages create financial freedom. Homeowners can even move into the small home and run out the big one to cover the mortgage, but you can understand why Cincinnati did require owner occupancy because of what we told you in episode one. On Brick by Brick, The Port was able to buy nearly 200 homes from a bankrupt out-of-town investor whose properties had fallen into disrepair. The Port outbid more than a dozen other investors is in the process of fixing them up and keeping them affordable for prospective buyers. Councilmember Mark Jeffreys told Brick by Brick, he heard from people who do have concerns about neglectful owners and that's why he included the responsible party clause. But Jeffreys says the city will monitor the impacts of ADUs over time and can always go back to readjust if needed. We were wondering about the human aspect in all of this. Who amongst our neighbors would want an ADU and for what particular use would they use it? We welcome Brick by Brick’s Emiko Moore to the studio. Hi Emiko.

Emiko Moore:

Hi Ann

Ann Thompson:

Emiko, you tracked down a couple of backyard cottage owners.

Emiko Moore:

Yes, we found two people in Cincinnati who built backyard cottages for very different purposes, and we know there are a few different uses. One built it for rental income and the other to provide housing for an aging parent. Let's take a listen. 

The stately Victorian home isn't the only home on the West End property tucked behind the swimming pool. In the backyard is an ADU that Dallas and Harriet Harrington live in.

Dallas Harrington:

You are sharing the space naturally. You are really sharing the space.

Harriet Harrington:

I don't know, I have a feeling of safety because it's not just us here. There, there's other people around and there's a pool.

Emiko Moore:

The Harrington's. Moved back to Cincinnati after many years, saw the benefits of living in a backyard cottage and knew the owner Gerald Bates.

Gerald Bates:

So when we designed the exterior of the building, we tried to do something that would match the house.

Emiko Moore:

Bates finished his new ADU just three months ago.

Gerald Bates:

It has an open floor plan, so an open living dining kitchen area, a bath and a bedroom on one level, and then on the loft level it has another open space and a bathroom.

Emiko Moore:

And while he was working on it, there was plenty of interest.

Gerald Bates:

People would come by and they'd say, are you going to be renting that? And I said, yeah. He said, oh, we'd be really interested.

Emiko Moore:

With rents going up and a shortage of housing. Bates saw the advantages of renting out an ADU in his backyard. He worked with a historic board but had some back and forth with the city on design and material choices.

Gerald Bates:

I kind of objected and then I thought about it and I said, you know what? That's fine. So we went ahead and that's the trade-off.

Emiko Moore:

Bates invested a few hundred thousand to build his carriage house, adding one third to the value of his property and rental income to cover costs.

Gerald Bates:

We just have enjoyed having tenants and they have their privacy and we have ours,

Emiko Moore:

But not all backyard cottages are as elaborate. Others are more practical. Like Sandy Hamilton's in the Northside neighborhood of Cincinnati nine years ago, she needed a place for her 90-year-old mother to stay who was having trouble taking care of herself.

Sandy Hamilton:

She just was so happy that she was only going to be a few doors from where she lived. A few doors from McKee Recreation Center, a few doors from her church a block and a half away, and many of her friends, if you walk inside the door, there are no steps. It's her dining and kitchen area. Also a washer and dryer, a little visiting area, and her bed was at the end of the room of the wet room is I think it's about 10 by 12. So had she ever gone into a wheelchair, she still could have fully functioned.

Emiko Moore:

Hamilton was able to build this a DU because she had a second lot, but what she didn't have initially was permission from the city, and that took a year.

Sandy Hamilton:

It wasn't a very friendly experience.

Emiko Moore:

ADUs weren't legal at the time.

Sandy Hamilton:

They wanted mom to have a driveway off of Hamilton. Well, to have a cut through on a major street is extremely expensive, much more than a side street. And also my mom never drove in her life, so there was no reason to have a driveway,

Emiko Moore:

But her persistence paid off and six months after getting the permits, she built the accessory apartment.

Sandy Hamilton:

It was about a hundred dollars a square foot and it's 480 square feet on the first floor

Emiko Moore:

According to AARP. 79% of older adults went to age in their community and the need for safe and accessible senior housing is growing at a rapid pace. In 2034, there will be more people over 65 than under 18.

Sandy Hamilton:

I found it very reasonable, especially compared with retirement facilities in that although my mom had some assets, had she lived a lot longer, she probably would've gone through those assets at a nursing home.

Emiko Moore:

While her mother passed away in 2021, Hamilton sees ADUs as a godsend for many adaptable over time, they can offer housing for a young family, a caregiver, or provide rental income as in Bates's case,

Gerald Bates:

Well, having renters helps to offset the cost of owning the building. Even though even if you don't have a mortgage, you still have basic maintenance, upkeep, utilities,

Emiko Moore:

And can fulfill various needs in a community,

Sandy Hamilton:

I think it will be a tremendous opportunity to care for parents or a widowed parent, an aunt or a grandmother, even a disabled child that might have a live-in caretaker. I think it's tremendous.

Ann Thompson:

Back in the studio now with Emiko. Thanks for that. You really did a good job pointing out the flexibility of ADUs. They can be used for so many different things, and I really like aging in place.

Emiko Moore:

Yes, AARP is advocating for these smaller, more flexible housing units as a practical solution for our housing needs. 90% of the 50 plus population want to stay in their homes and communities as they age, where they have strong social networks and are familiar with the area. And as in Gerald Bates' case, ADUs can make housing more affordable for both owner and renter.

Ann Thompson:

But it sounds like there were a few hurdles for both of them.

Emiko Moore:

Yes. As you've been mentioning, ADUs were just legalized in Cincinnati last year, so at the time it took Sandy Hamilton only six months to build her backyard cottage, but double that time, 12 months to get her permits approved, and that is valuable time when you have an aging parent. Bates took over three years to build because he was paying for construction out of pocket.

Ann Thompson:

But now Cincinnati, fast forward, has legalized them, so hopefully it will be easier, I'm guessing.

Emiko Moore:

Yes, let's hope it does get easier.

Ann Thompson:

Thanks Emiko. We'll catch up with you for the takeaways. Coming up on Brick By Brick. Banks are still exploring ways they can help people pay for these backyard cottages. We'll check in with one. I

Kenya Taylor:

Think we're in a really unique situation at this point in time where we're seeing something which is kind of unprecedented,

Ann Thompson:

Plus how BIPOC communities can benefit. 

Muhammed Alameldin:

There needs to be a method of which we legalize these ADUs through amnesty programs and bring these units up to health and safety codes.

Ann Thompson:

That's ahead on Brick by Brick.

Ame Clase:

Brick by Brick is made possible thanks to the generous support of so many, including Murray & Agnes

Seasongood Good Government Foundation, Rosmary & Mark Schlachter, The Camden Foundation, Patti & Fred Heldman, DeeDee & Gary West, The Stephen H. Wilder Foundation, Judith & Thomas

Thompson... a donation in memory of Frank and Margaret Linhardt, and more. Thank you. We couldn't do this work without you.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Hey, it's Hernz Laguerre Jr., one of the team members behind Brick by Brick. Our new show is about solutions for a thriving community, but if you think about it, we all have a different perspective of what a thriving community should look like. That's why we need to hear from you. We want to know what a thriving community looks like to you. Maybe it's more housing, more parks or stores or even safer sidewalks. Whatever your vision, we hope you'll share with us. You can do that by heading to the Brick by Brick Show page on cetconnect.org or thinktv.org. There you'll find an audience question button, just fill out the survey and that's it. We look forward to sharing your hopes and dreams with the rest of our neighbors in future episodes. Thank you.

Ann Thompson:

Welcome back to Brick By Brick. ADUs, like any building these days are expensive. You have to pay for site preparation, utility hookups, design and architecture boundary surveys, the cost of the building materials, the construction and government permits. Depending upon if you are just adding on or building a separate unit, costs can easily rise to at least $100,000 and $200,000 on the West Coast. So how can you pay for one if this is a solution you think you might like to get behind? KeyBank Regional Officer Kenya Taylor says you can pay cash, but not many people have that much money lying around, a home improvement loan is an option, and so is an equity line of credit and a cash out refinance. She also works with community agencies.

Kenya Taylor:

One of our jobs is to be the feet on the street to find out what agencies are out there, what services or products are out there that may be able to help those individuals to help fill that gap that we don't meet.

Ann Thompson:

ADU Advocate Kol Peterson points to something called the Future Value Home Equity Loan. That's where the bank allows homeowners to borrow against the future value of their property. This could be one way to pay for an ADU. Here's Kenya Taylor again.

Kenya Taylor:

I do see at some point in time banks evolving where maybe they might become more products accessible in the mortgage world or other worlds that aren't so cut and dry because the needs have changed and it's always a process, right? It doesn't happen overnight. And as we see more that is needed, then we'll see more that will come.

Ann Thompson:

There are cities that incentivize the building of a backyard cottage. New York City will pay you nearly $400,000 as part of a pilot program. You have to meet certain requirements. Los Angeles identifies homeowners who already have an ADU on their property and covers the cost of the operations if they are renting to a low income tenant. Also in California, there are companies who buy part of your backyard so they can build an ADU. Building one does increase the value of your property. In 2021, the National Association of Realtors said it was 35% depending upon the location. Look at it kind of like putting in a swimming pool. You may recoup some of the value when you sell, depending upon how common they are in the area. A division of the Ohio Realtors Association and AARP are trying to get out in front of a possible ADU surge and are developing a toolkit for homeowners. Cincinnati real estate agent Mari Hornsby, who was part of the project says pre-approved blueprints is one thing the groups plan to include.

Maurie Hornsby:

Hopefully the goal would be to have some architectural mockups in there that they could use to base theirs off of saving them hopefully tens of thousands of dollars.

Ann Thompson:

With Cincinnati's ordinance is just a year old. Hornsby says, introducing the term ADU is the first step when talking to her clients.

Maurie Hornsby:

To be completely honest, I have no idea what I'm even referring to, but once I do explain it, they kind of get excited.

Ann Thompson:

As we've told you, ADU can generate wealth and increase property value, but there are segments of the population that may not have enough equity to build one. Berkeley researchers tried to understand the barriers for black, indigenous and people of color households in California and wrote a paper in 2022. We welcome one of the researchers Muhammad Alameldin to Brick by Brick.

Muhammed Alameldin:

Thank you for having me.

Ann Thompson:

You conducted focus interviews and talked to nonprofit groups who work with homeowners. Briefly, what were the primary barriers as they related to the BIPOC community?

Muhammed Alameldin:

We found a lot of the barriers that people are facing is, number one, a lack of financing options. Accessory dwelling units are much more difficult to finance than if you were to do a lot split because there isn't much that the federal government with their back to financing options offers for accessory dwelling units, right? So a lot of people either finance ADUs with just hard cash that they have, which committees of color don't have wealth in that way or they refinance, which with interest rates right now, I don't imagine a lot of people refinancing right now. So number one was financing. Number two, it's the initial costs. People don't really think about what are the costs that happen before you even start developing.

Ann Thompson:

You make recommendations. And one of those is you say that community organizations should be better equipped to facilitate a DU interest and engagement for low and moderate income BIPOC owners. How so?

Muhammed Alameldin:

Community organizations could be offering technical expertise and just so the homeowner feels like there's someone there for them that they could consult and maybe they could connect them with other people in the community to have built ADUs and really help out with capacity and providing assistance.

Ann Thompson:

Have you noticed since your study came out, have there been improvements to help the BIPOC community?

Muhammed Alameldin:

I am going to collect the demographic data of the loans given out to really see if it's really helped out the BIPOC community. This has been really helpful for the distribution of Cal HFA grants. So before, not a lot of people subscribed to this free money, and when this paper came out and by working with the state agency, they started giving it to community organizations that gave it to homeowners. So that just increased the amount of ADUs being built in the market, especially by BIPOC individuals. But I need to check the data. I need to double check the data to make sure that's accurate. So what's really important is implementation, and that's why it's great to have researchers, especially working with your local universities who are not biased, who will look at the data and say, oh, this is correct, or, oh, this is a little wrong and maybe you could do this, from these interviews. W e always have to constantly improve the laws because it's really difficult to have it right out first.

Ann Thompson:

Yeah, thanks for explaining that. So going forward, I know you said you had some more research to do related to the BIPOC community and ADUs. What kinds of things are you concerned about or what do you see in the future as it relates to that particular community?

Muhammed Alameldin:

Yeah, definitely. A lot of the places that are zoned for multifamily in California, and I think the rest of the country are in areas that are primarily communities of color. So by the increasing housing supply across the country, building more multifamily, it's right now mostly where people of color live. So they're building the most housing, they're carrying everything on their backs, single family homes, single family zoning accounts for 80% of urban land nationally. And what I see with accessory dwelling units is that it allows us to increase the housing supply everywhere else because this housing crisis is everyone's problem and everyone should be striving for solutions. And there are BIPOC homeowners that have built ADUs that weren't permitted, right? And it was really growing up, it was like making space for grandma or making space for a cousin that moved here, or, oh, my uncle who's a refugee moved into my house kind of thing. It's this kind of stuff, and there needs to be a method of which we legalize these ADUs through amnesty programs and bring these units up to health and safety codes, so then BIPOC communities don't face legal trouble for doing something that has just been very common in their home countries or within their cultures for a long time.

Ann Thompson:

Interesting insights, Muhammed Alameldin, thanks for your time and being on Brick by Brick.

Muhammed Alameldin:

Thank you so much for having me.

Ann Thompson:

A commentary for the Brookings Institution mentions something we talked about earlier. It claims that requiring the owner to live on the site of an ADU is a backdoor attempt to block renters. It says the owner occupancy rules have negative effects on equity because renters typically have lower incomes than homeowners and are racially more diverse and owner occupancy requirements affect the economic and demographic makeup of neighborhoods. There's a link to that commentary at cetconnect.org and thinktv.org. Buildinganadu.com recently counted all the ADUs in California, Oregon, and Washington. That number is about a hundred thousand and it hopes to drill down on more targeted information, eventually predicting which cities will have the most affordable ADU potential and which, and entrepreneurs should focus their energy and financial resources to build them. Still to be determined is how much of a difference ADUs can make. Nationwide. Berkeley researchers say any additional housing holds rents down. They point to Oakland, California, where that city built thousands of units in just two years. So did Austin, Texas. It saw a 12% decrease in rent and is just one of three US cities nationwide that do have enough housing supply to meet demand. The others are New Orleans and Nashville according to global Developer Hines, but those cities are not Cincinnati and Dayton and our zoning laws are different. So Brick by Brick will be following what difference. Adding this incremental housing option here is making and keep you posted.

We want to hear from you as Brick By Brick develops more episodes. We're taking a break for the July 4th week. Go to our website, cetconnect.org and thinktv.org where there's a big green button to give feedback on the website. You'll also find web articles if you want to dig deeper into the material. You can also see Emiko and Hernz's videos. Time for takeaways. We welcome Emiko and Hernz back to the studio. 

Emiko Moore:

Hello

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

What's up y'all?

Ann Thompson:

Hey guys. Emiko, what did you take away from this episode?

Emiko Moore:

I think ADUs have some interesting potential. These housing units are put on existing property, so you don't need to develop on new land. And this is especially important in areas where land for development is limited. They can also tap into the infrastructure grid and they're designed to blend into a neighborhood so they're more discreet.

Ann Thompson:

Yeah, they don't change the character of the neighborhood. 

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

That’s Right. But the one thing I didn't know was how expensive it was. People are trying to get ADUs to save money, but it costs money to get into it. Tens of thousands of dollars to get a permit from 60,000 to a hundred thousand plus to make it. So there's a lot of financial hurdles in order to create an ADU in the first place, but there's work to be done to help with that. The Ohio Realtors Association, their leadership classes working on a toolkit in order to make getting the permits easier so you can know what is allowed already so you don't have to put money into that. And Jeff Rosa, who gave an ADU explainer workshop during the Investing in Neighborhoods Summit, he went ahead and said that they're working with a plan department in the city in order to create financial programs to help people get an ADU. So I think those things will help with the financial hurdles to get an ADU in the first place.

Ann Thompson:

Yeah, we'll look forward to that. It may, however, not be as big of a lift as some people might think they might've already converted their attic or garage or they might have a building on their property that was some expense they could turn into. One of those. Dayton and Yellow Springs told us that they're considering changing their code to make Backyard Cottages legal. Right now. It's conditional and I wanted to let you know that we have plenty of information on our website, cetconnect.org and thinktv.org about ADU specifications and stories of how some people are using them. For example, one person charges $3,000 a month to traveling nurses and another person uses it to add more bedrooms to the lot on a rental property. 

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Cool. 

Emiko Moore:

Lots of flexibility there. 

Ann Thompson:

Yeah. Alright, that's it for this week. Thanks for that, guys. 

Emiko Moore:

Thank you. 

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

No worries. 

Ann Thompson:

Coming up on the next episode of Brick By Brick, Escaping the Housing Trap in another of our sidebar solutions, how do we make housing more affordable when homeowners can't afford for housing prices to fall?

Chuck Marohn:

To both make Baby Boomers whole at the prices that they have come to anticipate, expect, and dare I say, rely on and house the millennials and to an extent, Gen Z at current prices,

Ann Thompson:

Author, engineer, and Strong Town's leader, Chuck Marohn has workable solutions including building houses more cheaply and something called Finding Your Farm. That's next time on Brick by Brick. Again, that will be coming out the week after the July 4th holiday Wednesday, July 10th. That's our show. If you like what you hear, please rate and review our podcast. It helps finding the pod a little easier. Also, please share it with your friends and family for Hernz Laguerre Jr. And Emiko Moore. I'm Ann Thompson. We'll be back soon with more solutions. Take Care.

Our show is produced, hosted an edited by me, Ann Thompson with reporting and story editing from Hernz Laguerre Jr. and Emiko Moore. Our Executive producer of Mark Lammers. Our show consultant is Gloria Skurski. Gabe Wimberly is our audio engineer and mixer. Zach Kramer runs the lights and cameras. Derrick Smith is our production specialist and Jason Garrison is our production manager. Kellie May heads up our marketing and promotions, along with Mike Shea and Bridgett Dillenburger. Elyssa Stefenson handles the website and Steve Wright is our designer. Bill Dean and Andres Kruza are the engineers for the show and our Chief Content Officer is Colin Scianamblo. Our music is from Universal Production Music. Brick by Brick: Solutions for a Thriving Community is a production of CET and ThinkTV, Southwest Ohio PBS member stations.