Ep. 5 Ensuring Prosperity for Attorneys: Understanding Tax Reforms and Retirement Options

As tax laws shift and the financial landscape for legal professionals becomes increasingly complex, my co-host Ian Weiner and I tackle the tough questions that keep attorneys up at night. Will the sunsetting of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act provisions catch you off guard? Could changes to IRA distributions under the Secure Act derail your retirement plans? Our latest episode dissects the implications of the State of the Union address, guiding attorneys through a labyrinth of tax considerations to safeguard their wealth and secure a prosperous future.

Navigating the treacherous waters of Roth conversions requires more than just a life jacket; it demands a seasoned guide. That's why we share the story of a recent widow bogged down by the tax intricacies of her inheritance, exemplifying the importance of strategic foresight. We unravel the complex tapestry of Roth IRAs in the wake of the Secure Act and how they can shield you and your heirs from unnecessary fiscal strain. Our discussion shines a light on the power of early Roth conversions and the necessity of incorporating these tools into your financial planning to preserve and enhance generational wealth.

Beyond the numbers and statutes lies the art of comprehensive financial planning, a discipline that combines insight, strategy, and foresight. We go beyond the surface-level investment advice, examining the role of fiduciary duty in the creation of resilient financial futures. We discuss why a second opinion on your current strategies could be the difference between a comfortable retirement and a golden one, offering listeners clarity and guidance through our in-depth financial reports. Join us for a conversation that not only informs but transforms the way legal professionals approach their finances.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Lawyer's Money Show with your hosts, todd Wattley and Ian Weiner, where finance meets the legal profession. Here we dive deep into the economics of law practice, from managing your firm's finances to optimizing personal wealth strategies for legal professionals. Every episode we bring you insights, strategies and stories from leading experts to help you navigate the financial landscape of the legal world. Stay tuned as we uncover the tools and tactics needed to help lawyers make the right money moves so they can grow their career, manage their practice and optimize their wealth so they can focus on enjoying the life they've worked so hard to build. For more resources, visit us at wwwlawyerstotalplancom.

Speaker 2: 0:45

This is Todd Wattley, certified lawyer, attorney and partner in Lawyer's Total Plan, and today we are talking about taxes. We are recording this one day after the 2024 State of the Union address. We don't get political, but we just talk facts, and I think one of the facts that Ian and I figured up in hey, by the way, ian's here with me, hey, ian, hey, todd, sorry about that, I get off from tangents and so I think one thing that is fairly consistent after listening to the State of the Union is taxes aren't going down anytime soon, and probably not within our defurbable future. There is a $1.5 trillion deficit every year, and one way to fix that is to increase taxes. So Ian doesn't love taxes, but he loves to talk about taxes Kind of a tax nerd and so do you have anything to say on today's podcast about taxes?

Speaker 3: 1:48

Ian, I've got a few thoughts. I am certain there is an attorney out there with an LLM in taxation who's going to disagree with me, and I will tell you up front you definitely know more about taxes than I do, so that's okay.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Well, and I will say, most LLM attorneys with LLM in taxes know a state tax, but we're not talking about a state tax, particularly today. We're talking about income tax that is not going down. And so the attorney out there thinking I know my income tax, I'm not worried about it. But when the vast majority of their investments are in IRAs, you better be very aware of income tax. And why is that? Well, there's some.

Speaker 3: 2:35

There's a deferred tax liability, you know, and so the further that is deferred, the bigger the risk is.

Speaker 3: 2:42

Sure, I think we have to look at the situation that we're in right now. At the time of this recording, we're under the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act you know the so-called Trump tax laws and really we're at a time of very low marginal brackets for most people. So the expected thing is, unless Congress acts, we're going to revert to the 2017 rates. So, for pretty much everyone listening to this, the brackets are going to go down, in terms of how much you can fill in each bracket, and the rate is going to go up. And it's about what? 30% On average, I think. The calculation is about 30% increase. So you're not going to all pay 30%, but if you're paying, you know if your effective rate is 18% right now your effective rate. If they don't get excited, if they don't change anything and get excited which I think, if we're all honest, we see a lot of legislative wins blowing towards taxing certain people more, you're probably 24% is going to be your effective rate and that's a 30% increase.

Speaker 3: 3:52

So we want to be and I think I've just made those numbers up, so don't quote me on those numbers but it's the concept, but conceptually, you know I don't know that anyone who's intellectually honest is going to disagree that in the long run the taxes are likely to go up.

Speaker 3: 4:09

We're at a period of marginally low rates and the tax code is exceedingly complex, and so, you know, the people that need to be concerned about that are folks who are getting closer to retirement or that are planning on retiring someday, so that's pretty much everyone that's listening, you know, and without doing too much history here, the, the rules of retirement have changed over the last 50, 60 years and they will continue to, and I think we need to look at that as precedent, for things may not be the way that they are now forever, and so that's a pretty good assumption. I think that's fair, right. So I try to be really fair, you know, but there's a lot of numbers that are getting thrown around, and I think the big one that we really wanna look at is this $400,000 of income number. You'll hear this a lot in proposed legislation. There's not gonna be any taxes on anyone who's making under $400,000 a year. It's essentially the line, and the reason I bring this up is because that number is based on. Most people make less than that amount.

Speaker 2: 5:27

And I would say a lot of attorneys probably make less than that, but what you've opened my eyes to is the Secure Act and the payment of IRAs within 10 years. So talk about how that you may not be in the 400 and you're like man.

Speaker 3: 5:46

I wish I was in the 400. Maybe not right now.

Speaker 2: 5:48

I wish I made that much, but when you start dealing with IRAs and start cashing those in, that's gonna be an quote artificial. I mean, you're not making the money, but any distribution from an IRA is deemed as income.

Speaker 3: 6:02

Yeah, well, let me finish the hook on the 400,000. Because the point that I wanna make is, just like a lot of the taxes that we pay, at least initially, they weren't proposed for everyone. Yeah, the income tax was not proposed for everyone. It was proposed on the wealthiest people. The estate tax, the same thing Just the rich people, just the rich people. And so I'm not trying to be like grumpy here, but I'm saying let's think a little bit.

Speaker 3: 6:32

The odds are that $400,000 number, and whatever new thing they come up with, will probably come down. Now you may go oh, that'll never happen and that's fine, as long as you're taking that calculated risk. That's what's important. You're making the decision, I'm not. I need to give you the facts and help you make that decision. So just keep that concept in the back of your mind as we talk about this, because it goes directly towards what you said.

Speaker 3: 6:59

So just briefly, if you're not familiar, when you save in a 401k, an IRA, a 403B, a deferred tax arrangement, a traditional retirement plan, two things happen. Number one you get a tax deduction in the current year that you make a contribution. So if your income was $100,000 and you contribute $20,000 to your 401k, well, your taxable income is now $80,000. Now the promise is that later on, after that money grows, when you take it out, you're gonna pay that tax at your ordinary income rates. On all of it, on all of it, okay. So that's when we say you have a deferred tax liability. That's what it is. You deferred tax this year to pay it in a later year. It's really that simple. And so, as you're listening to this, what you should be thinking is okay, well, is my rate today gonna be higher or lower than my rate in the future? That's really the big question.

Speaker 3: 7:56

Now, the promise when these types of plans were introduced, the idea it was marginal. Brackets were quite a bit higher in those days, and so the idea was that you'd be in a lower tax bracket in retirement and therefore it was a better deal. What I'm here to tell you, having built probably 1,000 retirement plans, that does not bear out in practice, at least not with the baby boomers and under generation, and I think if you're, whether you're a baby boomer or Gen X or whatever generation you are, odds are that probably it's not gonna bear out that way in practice for you. And that's before they start changing the rules on us. So I just want you to think in your mind okay, is it likely that I'm gonna be in a lower tax bracket in retirement?

Speaker 3: 8:46

What we find is people tend to try to keep spending the same. It tends to be about the same, if not going up a little bit, because every day Saturday, and that's part of what it should be about and that's the idea. But we've got to take that into consideration. And so when you're saving into these vehicles and they are compounding and the markets do really well and those accounts grow, so does the future tax liability. So the problem is you have a limited partner in that account, which is our uncle Sam, but arguably he gets to make majority partner decisions, which is what the rate is that you're paying him back, how much he gets.

Speaker 3: 9:35

And so, yeah, if you think that taxes are gonna go down in the long run, like maybe just leave it alone and that's not a big deal. But if you're five, 10 years from retirement or wanna retire in the future, let's think about where you're saving and make a plan for this, because odds are my bet is the taxes are gonna go up, and so we need to be thoughtful about how we address this situation. The other issue that compounds it is when you're retiring in a traditional timeline. Social security can also become taxable, and so a lot of people don't understand this. This is called your provisional income.

Speaker 2: 10:16

And that's based on how much your other income is right, that's right. If it's high, you're gonna get taxed on your social security. Yep.

Speaker 3: 10:24

And so what I want you to imagine is a bit of a snowball here. That happens, and so there's. I really interact with two types of people broadly when it comes to retirement planning specifically folks who have not saved enough, and we're not worried about taxes, we're worried about them running out of money. That's the bigger issue. We can solve that Okay.

Speaker 3: 10:44

But most of the folks who really have this big deferred tax liability, they have built the habit really well over 20, 30, 40 years of saving and therefore not spending. So what happens is that the accounts grow, the tax liability grows and then they're only taking out what they need to take out. They required minimum distributions, which that date keeps getting pushed back. And so if that's the case, if you've got two million bucks in an IRA when you're 60, by the time, if you don't really touch it by the time you need to take it out, it's probably between four and six million and all of a sudden that 400,000 number is pretty small when you talk about social security and RMDs, and so you've got this kind of snowball effect. That happens and so you've got to take some money out because you're required to.

Speaker 3: 11:37

Well, that's gonna make your social security taxable. Ordinary income rates. The money that you're taking out of the 401ks or the IRAs is taxable at ordinary income rates, depending on what that does. That gives you Medicare surcharges. Irma gets in there couple extra grand a year, and so now you've got to take out a little bit more to cover the expenses. Do you see the snowball effects start?

Speaker 2: 12:00

to happen.

Speaker 3: 12:01

And so, before long, yeah, you were in the 20% 22% tax bracket when you're getting ready to retire, oh, but by the way, now that's the 25% or 28% bracket and you need to take out more. It's gonna compound quickly and those people now become at risk of running out of money or worse. In my view, more money than you want goes to our friends in Washington. I mean, this isn't a political statement. I just think it's a matter of fact that you can spend your money better than they can. You pick the charity, you reinvest it in your family or in your retirement or in your community. I think you can spend it better than they can, and if that's true, we should be proactive about this. So there was a lot there, yeah okay, so you've presented the problem.

Speaker 2: 12:50

Is there a solution?

Speaker 3: 12:52

There can be a solution If someone wants to take action. We had a conversation yesterday with a lady who her husband had passed. She got a fair bit of money in IRAs and she was pondering whether or not it made sense to address the tax issue and her general kind of disposition was like I don't really care.

Speaker 2: 13:16

She doesn't have children.

Speaker 3: 13:17

She doesn't have children. I think that's key.

Speaker 2: 13:19

She's like I don't care, I just sat there slack jaw going, you really don't. She truly didn't care.

Speaker 3: 13:26

And I was pretty forward with her.

Speaker 2: 13:28

Yeah, she was blunt with her about hey, why don't we do Ross, so that she doesn't? She's like hmm, okay, there are people like that.

Speaker 3: 13:36

And so if you're sitting there going, look, I've got six million bucks in IRAs. I'm not gonna spend it all, I don't really care how much I pay in taxes, that's great. Let's look at the investment portfolio and let's maximize that. You know, let's make sure you make as much money as possible and cover some of those extra taxes. But if you go, you know, I think if I had a choice between paying a million bucks in taxes over my life or six million bucks in taxes over my life, I would pick the $1 million. Okay, yeah, then let's have a conversation and what we look at is we see okay, does it make sense to pay some of those taxes early, before you're required to pay them? So what that process is called is doing Roth conversions. Okay, so you're gonna take the money from an IRA and put it into a Roth IRA or Roth 401K. You pick your poison, depending on how your stuff is situated and you're paying the tax now, but the future growth, subject to certain rules, is gonna grow tax-free and be distributed tax-free.

Speaker 2: 14:41

The money that you put in the Roth becomes after tax money. The growth is after tax, so it's really cool and you don't have to take RMDs. You don't have to take RMDs, you can, yeah. So when you leave that to your kids, do they have to?

Speaker 3: 14:56

cash it in. So they have 10 years. So this is the Secure Act, which we didn't talk about. We'll do a whole episode on this. The Secure Act eliminated what was called the Stretch IRA provision, which means if you leave a 401K or an IRA one of these deferred tax vehicles to someone other than your spouse, they have to take it all out within 10 years, regardless of the balance. And now what happens is when they take it out, that's at their highest marginal bracket. So you might have been in a lower bracket, but if the kid or the nephew is working in their peak earning years, all of a sudden it's lumped on top of their income. So it's gotta be all liquidated within 10 years.

Speaker 2: 15:35

So the Roth that is left to a decedent, do they pay tax on it?

Speaker 3: 15:43

Under the current rules they don't. They get an extra 10 years to defer for that money to grow tax-free. They do technically have to take it out at the end of that 10 year period Under the current rules, but it's still tax-free.

Speaker 1: 15:53

It is still tax-free. That's cool, that's huge.

Speaker 3: 15:55

So I mean there's scenarios where I'll look at the asset mix that someone has. They got two million bucks in IRAs. They're early 60s, they don't spend a ton. Social Security will cover most of it. But they wanna give some of it to the kids If we pay the taxes now versus leaving it to them and just doing RMDs under the current rules, not even projecting the tax rates going up. I mean it's like four to five million dollars difference by paying now. So yeah, we're gonna, over the period of three, four, five years, we're gonna realize that income and pay those taxes.

Speaker 3: 16:31

You're gonna write a check, but it's on your terms. It's at a known rate, because there's three things that can happen the tax rates can go up, they can go down or they can stay the same. So what I argue is two of those three. If you do the proactive plan, two of those three are in your favor and I like those odds, and really even the last one. If you lose on my proposed plan at least, you did it, knowing so. If tax rates go up and you paid while they were down, well, you won. If tax rates stay the same and you paid on your terms, well, you didn't lose and you did it on your terms. If they go down, okay, you overpaid bummer, but you went into it knowing that you were going to pay at a certain rate that you were comfortable with and you mitigated the risk of it going up. I think it's worth it.

Speaker 2: 17:27

I would bet if you took those three options to a bookie and said, okay, tell me the chances of each of these three happening. I'm pretty sure 90% of it is staying the same or going up. Yeah, okay, yeah, and I think that's generous. Yeah For our Congress at this point to lower taxes, even if a Republican comes in at the end of 24,. If they're wanting to balance the budget, I can't see them lowering taxes.

Speaker 3: 17:56

There's going to be. I mean, they're getting more creative with this and I think that is a fair point to make. They try not to manipulate the brackets as much as they can, because people squeal about that. But what they do is they add like phantom taxes or stuff behind the scenes Irma, the Medicare surcharges, provisional income. They will add the net investment income tax, that's the 3.8% if your income is over a certain amount. So they'll add these little ones here and there. Step up in basis.

Speaker 2: 18:25

That add up.

Speaker 3: 18:26

I mean, I'm concerned about the step up and basis in the long term. Yeah, so you know, the thing that I don't want people to hear is like oh, this is hopeless. I want you to hear if you're proactive, you can do this on your terms, and isn't that what you want, Right?

Speaker 2: 18:44

And we can help people with that. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:47

And if you own a business or own real estate or you are charitable inclined, oh my goodness, the stuff that we can do is absolutely incredible. Okay, it's so incredible that you have to like sometimes I have to go, hey, this is actually legal, that we can do this Like we're not. There's no tax evasion, okay, no, it's tax avoidance. But if you give to charity and we lump it together and do it at one time and we put it into an account that you can give from later, but we lump, you know a couple, a couple, 10 years of charitable giving at one time, you get a big tax deduction for that. Sure, and you can offset the taxes from a Roth conversion. You could pay zero tax on your Roth conversion. If you're charitable inclined, you have a business or have real estate. Wow, that's what we can do, okay.

Speaker 2: 19:37

So I'm sure people are out there thinking, okay, well, I've got a financial advisor, so you know, I'm good If your financial advisor has not brought this up to you, particularly in the last few months, or is ringing your phone right now. Over the last five years, yeah, over the last five years, then I think it's time you get a second opinion.

Speaker 3: 20:02

I think that's fair. You know, that was essentially what I said to this lady yesterday, Because if you're married, this is actually the challenge. Actually compounds, Sure, you know. So let's say you're a married couple and you've got two million in IRAs, that'll double to three and a half, four million, five million when you're starting to have to take it out in your 70s. Well, if one of those spouses passes away, the amount of money that you have to take out of the IRA account is the same.

Speaker 3: 20:32

Your tax bracket just got cut in half and so we kind of call it the widow's tax. I mean, it's an extra, it's more expensive and I don't know that people think about that. So you know, what I would say is look, probably everyone has an investment person, if not two investment people, right, and they're typically. You know they're in the strip center down the street with the yellow and green sign or they're, you know, the big green broker or Vant, and that's fine. You know to have an investment person. What we find 99% of the time is the investment people don't do financial planning and the way that combined those.

Speaker 2: 21:10

All the time, my financial advisor is my financial planner.

Speaker 3: 21:15

No, that's typically not, because, yeah, and here's how you know when you're having a conversation with them. You know you typically have one to two review meetings a year, or you get a couple calls a year and it's like, hey, and this is how that, that, if you get a call, this is how that conversation goes. You know, hey, great to hear from you. How are the kids? Hey, so we're watching the market and what we're seeing is that this, this and this sector are going to do this. So we're going to make some trades and move some stuff around and get this here and it sounds like really good, it's like oh man, they must be on top of it.

Speaker 3: 21:47

That's an investment person, okay. Or when you have a review meeting, what you talk about is what happened in the last quarter of the last year and then what the market is going to do in the future. That's typically 99% of that meeting. Or hey, there's this new thing. You know, we should put 50 grand over here and do this.

Speaker 2: 22:06

So because he just got an email saying if you sell this, you get to go on a cruise next summer. Oh, they would never do that.

Speaker 3: 22:14

Sorry, this is actually how this works. This new product, yeah, I mean and I'm not trying to beat anybody up here but I just want you to understand that if, most of the time, what you talk to your advisor about is investments, they're an investment advisor.

Speaker 2: 22:28

Right. How many cruises have you been on that were paid for by an investment company? Zero.

Speaker 3: 22:34

Really, I will never go on. I'll never go on a cruise, first of all, unless it's one of the river cruises. I want to do the Viking one, where you pillage down the oh wait that you pay for, not your investment brokerage. Yeah, no, I mean, I qualify for those and it's just not my thing, so I'm just not into that, okay.

Speaker 2: 22:52

I'm really not, but you can go on it next time. I said it because that's not your focus. Yeah, as a certified financial planner, we, as lawyers, total plan. We don't think about those things. We are looking at you. We have a fiduciary duty to you to do what is important to you, and we do planning, not financial advising.

Speaker 3: 23:18

What really moves the needle is planning. That's a big reason, absolutely. When we really have an investment conversation, we can do some great stuff on the investment front, but it's relatively hands-off, and that's on purpose, sure, but the taxes I mean that's a couple, could be a couple million dollars that's worth focusing on. And so typically what happens is advisors don't talk about this because the larger that tax deferred pile of money that they're getting fees on grows, the larger their income grows. So there's kind of a reason why this is not the case, or they don't know how to do it and they're not competent in it.

Speaker 3: 23:59

And I said that as tenderly as I could, because most advisors are salespeople, they're not planners, and that's okay. But you just got to decide what you want. So if you love your investment person, you've been with them for a hundred years. They love your kids, you go on the boat, that's you know what. Fine, keep them. I work with people that have multiple investment advisors. That's not a big deal. We come into, we come to the table as the planning piece. We help to coordinate everything and make sure that we're a quarterback.

Speaker 3: 24:30

Yes, that's a much better way to say that and that's a valuable position to have, Because think about the last time all of your professionals were at the same table or even the same virtual table or having the same conversation Doesn't happen.

Speaker 2: 24:47

So, in just to be totally forthcoming, since you're not the advisor, you're not getting commissions off of products that are being sold You're going to ask for a check from the client For the server, just like we, as attorneys, say this is going to cost $5,000,. The client writes you a check. They understand that you're providing a service and so, please understand, coming to us, if we don't do your investments and even if we do, we're still at some point once we can tell you here's what we see, here's what we can do for you, and it's going to cost this much money. If you like it, great. If you don't, that's fine, we're okay with that, just like with you in your class. Just understand. This may be different because you go to your investment advisor and they're like yeah, write a check to the company. You don't write me a check, you write it to the company. They're getting paid by the company and since we're not doing that, we don't do this for free long term, you're going to write us a check.

Speaker 3: 25:52

And this is a different model for a lot of folks. But we're a different type of advisor, so we don't have to sell products that you don't need to meet a quota. That's not how our business works. So we get paid for our time, our ideas and our expertise, and so to do that, we charge a fee. But we also don't sit there and talk about products the whole time. We help you buy them, we don't sell them to you. That's a big switch, and I think that's really, really important. We sit on your side of the table and go, hey, if I were you, this is what I would do, and, knowing what I know about you, this is what I would do, and so we're able to be more dynamic there, and I think this is what people want. It just hasn't been offered because companies would rather make money selling junk products and they can hire salespeople to do it.

Speaker 2: 26:37

But initially, we encourage you to call us, we encourage you to go to the website and click. We will give you quite a bit of stuff for free and this is not going to last forever. But if you listen to this podcast and we're saying it here that we will do this for free, you can hold us to that. And so what sort of things will we do for people initially to say here's where you are.

Speaker 3: 27:03

So there's a couple of things that we'll do. So what I want to build a distinction between is the planning and the implementation. So each one has a different piece and we will charge differently for that. So planning is going to be a big picture, like, hey, you should probably contribute to your retirement accounts, or you shouldn't spend $80,000 a year on this. So that's big picture. Planning. Implementation is hey, here's the 10 things that we would recommend that you do. Here's the expected outcome for that. Do you want to do it yourself or do you want us to help you do it, to come alongside you or do it with you? Coordinate with the other professionals, make sure it gets executed. That's where our fee comes in. It's helping to coordinate that and actually make sure it gets done Accountability and its execution, and so we charge for planning. I mean there's value in that and me being able to go hey, if you do these things, I can save you $3 million, right, $3 million. I mean that's worth a couple bucks.

Speaker 2: 28:05

But we will produce a report for you. You have to give us some stuff. Let us look at your stuff, and then we'll do a report that will lay all this out for you for free.

Speaker 3: 28:19

Plain, simple English. Now, that report may not tell you every single detail you need, because we have to manage our time, but it'll be broad strokes. Hey, take care of this, take care of this, take care of this, take care of this. Have you thought about this? Have you done this? And it will be across multiple categories Cash flow, debt, liabilities, investments, insurance, estate planning, retirement planning. It'll be extremely comprehensive.

Speaker 2: 28:46

And if you do this, here's a potential result of that and you'll be able to see oh goodness, yeah, these changes equal this. It's worth a phone call.

Speaker 3: 28:57

It is absolutely worth a phone call. That's 479-485-1911. 479-485-1911. Or go to LawyersTotalPlancom. This is different. We understand that most people are not used to this. They're used to getting, you know, looking at the mutual fund illustration or the insurance illustration, getting sold something every time they go in. And we think that when people get used to this, this will be a breath of fresh air. It's like, oh, I have a thinking partner, I have someone that'll look at everything for me and say, hey, what should we do differently? How do we bring all the pieces together?

Speaker 2: 29:36

Our niche and the reason you should call us is because I am an attorney. Ian spends a lot of hours every day with me as an attorney. We know how attorneys think. We know this and this is our drill-down niche of here's what we do and we can look at your situation without you having to explain three hours of you know this is my typical day. I know what your typical day is. I know what your situation is. I can jump in many layers deep, as opposed to having to get through all of this to understand you and talk the same language. Yeah, you can call us and we talk the same language. We understand exactly what you're going through and we can jump right to a solution.

Speaker 3: 30:25

I think it's something that is going to make a great impact on a lot of practices and we're excited to help.

Speaker 2: 30:31

Thank you all for listening. Please subscribe, if you have not, so that you can be notified of new episodes and we would love for you to share. So give the phone number one more time. Just get a pen and paper and write this down and give us a call.

Speaker 3: 30:46

It is 479-485-1911, or go to lawyerstotalplancom. We'll put that in the show notes as well. But give us a call. Let's have a conversation. We'll do a free consultation, help you get organized a little bit and see if we can't find some savings for you. All right, think?

Speaker 2: 31:06

over your match. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 1: 31:10

Yes, Thank you for joining us on the Lawyer's Money show. We hope today's episode has provided you with valuable insights and actionable advice to enhance your financial well-being. For more information, to access show notes or to explore further, please visit our website at wwwlawyerstotalplancom. We look forward to guiding you through your financial journey. You can give us a call at 479-485-1911. Until next time, keep striving for excellence in both law and finance.