The Human Code
The Human Code" podcast unravels the intricate blend of technology, leadership, and personal growth, featuring insights from visionary leaders and innovators shaping the future. Host Don Finley dives deep into the human stories behind technological advancements, inspiring listeners at the crossroads of humanity and tech.
The Human Code
Healthcare Heroes: Jodie Green on Burnout and AI Solutions
Addressing Clinician Burnout: Insights from Jodie Green
In this episode, Jodie Green, CEO of the Clinician Burnout Foundation, shares her expertise on tackling burnout and moral injury among healthcare providers. Jodie discusses the severe impact of burnout, the role of AI in alleviating administrative burdens, and the importance of fostering a culture of care within healthcare organizations. Personal anecdotes, insights on healthcare technology, and strategies for systemic change are also highlighted, making this a must-listen for anyone interested in supporting healthcare professionals. The conversation also touches on entrepreneurship, the value of emotional intelligence, and the importance of believing in one's ideas despite challenges.
00:00 Introduction to Jodie Green and the Clinician Burnout Foundation
01:10 Personal Journey and Motivation
02:33 The Role of Technology in Healthcare
04:03 The Crisis of Clinician Burnout
06:04 Signs and Symptoms of Burnout
06:58 AI's Potential and Limitations in Healthcare
09:48 Job Displacement and Workforce Challenges
18:38 Adoption of New Tools in Healthcare
26:00 Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs
28:04 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Sponsored by FINdustries
Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where technology meets humanity, and the future is shaped by the leaders and innovators of today. I'm your host, Don Finley, inviting you on a journey through the fascinating world of tech, leadership, and personal growth. Here, we delve into the stories of visionary minds, Who are not only driving technological advancement, but also embodying the personal journeys and insights that inspire us all. Each episode, we explore the intersections where human ingenuity meets the cutting edge of technology, unpacking the experiences, challenges, and triumphs that define our era. So, whether you are a tech enthusiast, an inspiring entrepreneur, or simply curious about the human narratives behind the digital revolution, you're in the right place. Welcome to The Human Code. In this episode, we are honored to welcome Jodie Green CEO and president of the clinician burnout foundation. With a mission to end burnout and moral injury among healthcare providers, Jodie brings a wealth of experience from her work in healthcare advocacy, health tech, and marketing. Her dedication to improving the lives of medical professionals is both inspiring and urgently needed. Today, Jodie, and I will share the severe impact of burnout on healthcare providers and the urgent need for systemic changes. How AI and technology can alleviate administrative burdens, allowing healthcare professionals to focus on patient care. And the strategies for creating a culture of caring within health care organizations to support the wellbeing of providers. Join us as we delve into these critical topics with Jodie Green. This episode is packed with valuable insights that will inspire you to rethink how we support our healthcare heroes. You won't want to miss it. I'm here with Jodie Green, and I gotta say I'm really excited for this conversation. She brings a different perspective than a lot of our previous guests, very much concerned with the, the aspect of humanity in general. first, Thank you for being on. Second, what got you interested in the intersection of humanity and technology?
Jodie Green:thank you very much for having me and, it's very personal for me in, my Family background as a caregiver for those specifically with healthcare needs, an autistic brother, a mother with very severe mental health issues many years ago, wasn't even really the term autism. And it was really difficult pre internet to find. amazing healthcare people, speech therapists, occupational therapists, mental health therapists, and of course, primary care physicians, who would really hear you and give you a voice. and over time that aspect of humanity and always wanting to be purpose driven and to give as well as receive, allowed me to, or, really fostered in me a desire to help others in ways that I could, and specifically again, healthcare, because that's my personal thread. I don't practice medicine, but over time I've watched others suffer and that leads me to have. Launched the Clinician Burnout Foundation, but we all depend on those people. They provided a means for my family members to thrive and have quality of life and as a caregiver, that for me as well. technology is also another interest of mine. I am very involved with AI and tech companies as an angel investor and advisor in healthcare and non healthcare, and specific in healthcare, with electronic health records, having devastated the practice of medicine and turned doctors into data entry clerks instead of doctors. having, practicing health care. I've worked with companies now with AI and Fusion to decrease the burdens, Cut back those hours spent on areas where that tech can innovate, elevate, and grow. and provide a better, richer experience for those providers and then for everyone who's a patient.
Don Finley:I think you're hitting on a key point of what AI could do is that it could actually relieve some of the tension or stress that we're feeling in an environment, Like we're living in a very go, go world. but then additionally helping to navigate our own personal space. I do this thing where I ask, an AI to be like Carl Young. And then we talk therapy. and it's, I see tools like that helping to work through those points in between, like whether it's therapy sessions or whether it's like a time that you talk to your friend, but Hey, I just, I need a quick, like set of eyes on something. where else do you see, an excitement or a collaboration or what are the main challenges, that you're seeing with the clinician burnout foundation?
Jodie Green:I launched this, the end of 2020 because physicians have the highest suicide rates in the U. S. and it's escalating globally as well. Before COVID, it was two times. Any other member of the U. S. population, since COVID, it's climbing to three, three times anyone else. And nurse burnout, suicide, is catching up, sadly. And as a result, people may hear there, shortages of doctors, nurses, particularly in rural areas of the country. That's because a lot of them only see one way out. they took an oath to do no harm and may not even see harm being done to them. and so many of them are taking their lives. And many are also saying, I could just quit. And because they're patients too, but they may have stigma and not want to seek therapy and going back to, tying back quickly to what you just said. Okay, there's a private way to do that with anonymity. that's what led me to do this, to, remove the silos, and, Stop cannibalization, which I also see happening here. The reason we have burnout is the punishing hours, the electronic health records moving from paper charts to that. All those EHRs were flawed. It was a market glided, profit opportunity. Really, they were all built and distributed as admin tools for billing. None of them are really designed for the provider to have patient care, easily find patient records and what have you. This is where AI for, is really a game changer in that area. But as a result, their work hours doubled and yet within 65 percent of a work day, they're doing data entry around seeing patients and still having to call back patient calls weekends till 11 o'clock at night. and, It still persists, but I want to help them to help all of us.
Don Finley:Oh, see, that's fantastic. Now, what are some of the signs of burnout?
Jodie Green:and this happens to everyone, Depression, you start to see depression, foggy thinking, cognitive, you start to forget things, and also, you might skip steps, And it's not intentional, but then human error emerges, whether it's in medicine or anything else. fatigue, punishing fatigue. And Depression, that's probably the biggest part because depression manifests itself not just in mental health, but physical symptoms as well.
Don Finley:And I think it's incredible that you're devoting your time and effort to helping people in that way.
Jodie Green:Thank
Don Finley:just even outside of the healthcare industry, mental health is remarkably important. we saw how the pandemic infected people. We saw how even afterwards it has been too. But additionally, I think we're coming up on a crisis of purpose. and I'm hoping that AI can be part of the solution for this. specifically what you're talking about, like how do we use AI to relieve some of the pressure that we put on people for both data entry, but additionally, data discovery as well. Like, how do you find the information that's necessary to treat this person in this moment or to solve this problem? and I can tell you that, my medical records are probably littered with, different doctor's notes, different, test results, and if anybody had to go through to try to find the pattern, that's probably a really difficult tall order. But when we talk about what AI could hopefully do, to find those patterns to see maybe, if there's a different solution or to just surface the right information at the right time for the position and for myself. I think that could be a really profound impact for everybody. What are some of the areas that you're most excited about?
Jodie Green:With AI, things that you're talking about, can, in seconds touch on a billion data points and coalesce them. What worries me, the good and the bad, is AI, machine learning, it's trained on junk in, junk out data today, Especially if the electronic health records pulled everything in, they're 80 percent flawed. because it's all unstructured data, for getting into the geekiness. So I'm working with companies now that create structured data, clean data, so it's accurate. that's why we find, this crazy Google search results, remember? All these kinds of things like, or Some of the chatbots like, I hate you, I'm going to kill you. It's like Rise of the Terminators. So you have to have it trained on proper data or that those flaws in treatment recommendations or what have you, are scary. And, there's fear among doctors and nurses. In particular, they'll be replaced. Again, they already feel somewhat devalued. But it's a science and an art to medicine. They will never, the AI tech of any kind, will never replace the art, the craft, the humanity, if you will, of the knowledge of that healthcare practitioner. it's a great research tool and can synthesize and bring so much information quicker that can help them, providers, they shouldn't be devalued or dismissed. And I recently read one health system, not going to name it, engaged in instituting AI, bringing AI in to, to lay off a huge percent of nurses and So it's happening. It's out there that, for those who run these institutions and the great need for changing culture, the human aspect, not just tech innovation. we have to moderate our expectations of AI.
Don Finley:on two kinds of points here. One is there's an organizational impact to when you bring these tools in. And so there's a possibility that some jobs will end up going away, but also like I've been doing efficiency operational projects for the last 20 years. And I can tell you, even when we thought that we were going to cut a thousand people, we didn't cut anybody. And it was funny because we had the financial projections, And everything makes sense and like you're going and this is the justification that you're using. Forgetting funding for these projects. And we're talking like it's millions of dollars across like a fortune 50 company. but what ends up happening is you get done with the project, the person who's employing that, so the direct manager or direct director, vice president, recognize that they've had a laundry list of 20 priorities. They've only ever been able to get to the top five. And now you've given them the capacity to actually get to the top eight. So they are like, why would I get rid of somebody that I've had on my payroll for the last two years? They know the business. I know they're good. I don't want to have to hire anybody. And I also have all this work to their forum. Now I think AI might be a little bit different and there's always companies that end up removing people or jobs that end up getting displaced. Or industries that just don't need as many people to fill those roles because of the change, which means we got a lot of people that will need to be doing something else. What are your thoughts on that? where's that kind of the job displacement outside of one organization? what do you see as being the main challenges in healthcare for this?
Jodie Green:I totally agree. look for an individual practitioner who has perhaps a better electronic health record system and as a result, excuse me, might have fewer prior authorization denials. Take that front desk employee who doesn't have to spend 40 hours a week fighting with the insurance companies to get treatment for the patients approved and reallocate them. If they're interested in learning, they've been there a long time, as you said, they're valued. They would probably love, many of them, not all, to have a skill, help grow that practice and serve more patients, in different ways. And everybody wins because there's more bandwidth, as you said, for treating patients. And, creating a better reserve and work. There's no work life balance, but it's, bring work life balance to the physician. Those people they depend on and the same with hospitals. They're going to lay off people, but they're not going to lay off. Custodial staff, let's say, They still need housekeeping. And if the custodian doesn't show up and clean the OR, the surgeon's not going to do surgery. But clinicians, nurses, they're still bedside. they're the ones who touch people. And, yes, there will be minimizing of staff. Hopefully many could be reallocated because support staff, if you will, they're all still vital to supporting, propping up, if you will, a system that is itself on life support. So yes, some will lose their jobs, maybe be retrained. there are also so many opportunities still in healthcare
Don Finley:And also,
Jodie Green:learn to do. Sorry, even remote work, whatever it is. Yeah,
Don Finley:but also, it'd be nice if the nurse wasn't like running in and out. if we could give them a little bit more time to create a relationship with the patient to see where it goes, I think it would be a much better environment for everybody.
Jodie Green:absolutely.
Don Finley:well, right? there's nothing more impersonal than when somebody comes into, check you out. And then all of a sudden, two minutes later, they're right out the door cause they got the answer they needed, but they also have 20, 000 things that they need to be doing. and so we've put our Healthcare teams to the brink. And so it's really nice that you're able to support them. I would love to give you your take on this. There was a study and I can't remember who did it, but they did an evaluation of chat GPT, 4. 0 for medical diagnosis. And the surprise wasn't that chat GPT was like good at it. It was, it hit a metric that was similar to humans. the real surprise that I got from that study was that 80 percent of patients preferred chat GPT over their doctor because of the bad, better bedside manner.
Jodie Green:it's the Dr. Google syndrome, We're so used to looking things up, which is maddening to them. and I don't know if you,
Don Finley:Oh, I'm dying from eight different things because of how
Jodie Green:Yeah, exactly. If you're saying, and I can't recall, sorry, if they're looking that up at home, or you're saying in the hospital, or even as their own second opinion seeker, with the physician.
Don Finley:it was, they had a clinician read the chat GPT stuff so that they could actually yeah, they basically, they
Jodie Green:Oh, but with patient. With the patient. Oh, recall that.
Don Finley:So it was funny to see that wait, we do have a preference for the impersonal, which is really sad because in a lot of ways we want to have connection with people. And I think if we had connection with people in a way that showed that it cared, that would be a different story.
Jodie Green:part of that is that compassion fatigue is part of burnout in And that's also taken a hit. especially for various kinds of providers, they have to turf people, if you will, It's very difficult to stay beyond the 10 minutes that they're reimbursed. And a lot of them will do that, I'm talking primary care, or Maybe specialist in and out. but also they've had to become more guarded. People are litigious. They don't want to be sued. And there's a lot of things that have made them perhaps more self protective and not always aware of it, and they may be so compassionate, and yet fearful of showing that to some, because, It could backfire on them. But compassion fatigue is a very real issue in healthcare and elsewhere too for those who we look to, first responders who are not clinicians. I talk now to, also to firefighters, EMS, EMTs, all part of firefighters, police. a lot of military folks, too, that, with its battlefield assistance, it's really, widespread. So with that's interesting, and I'm not surprised that the statistics are because it, The data that it's from is, historical data, so it can't tell you present and future with developments, as you said, AI with drug discovery and so forth, and even more experimental things that may be going on that, you Not even expert, but proven and approved, what have you, devices. But it can only look at historical data. It can only look at records saying, this was entered, this was the diagnostic code and the billing code. And so I do still see limitations.
Don Finley:there's definite limitations in what AI can do today. And also really limitations of. The architecture of LLMs,
Jodie Green:Yes.
Don Finley:this silly thing, one of the limitations is that they really can't count, Like you can't tell it that, hey, produce something that's four sentences long, that has this many, syllables in it. it's just not how The system is architected to be able to like even answer that question reliably. we are definitely at that point and even more, let's just say concretely, I agree with you. we are at a space where AI isn't exactly creative from the standpoint of creating new ideas. It's really taking different concepts and finding the intersection between that, which is incredibly valuable from the standpoint of we have experts who have a very narrow focus. And as they continue to build out the knowledge of humanity, they do it in a very narrow way, but there's the space between two different ideas. And I think that's where AI can help to fill in the gaps with what we have today, yet at the same time to advance that knowledge. is a bit different. And like we saw, I think it was Microsoft, had done a study where they like had created new materials. They also tried out 2 million materials that like just didn't work. So it was a little bit of a brute force type of play, but the AI was able to have the reasoning capabilities and whatnot to help in that process. what recommendations do you have to. any clinicians or really people out in this world to be, getting ready for the dearth of new tools that will be impacting their lives and the workflows that they have.
Jodie Green:Yeah. it's as with any, anyone who's just very overwhelmed and racing around in their jobs. And that's a lot of. industries, certainly not unique to those who practice medicine. It's really hard to get them to adopt tools. When you're so overwhelmed, the last thing you want to have to do is this is going to mop your floors and cook dinner and, raise your kids for whatever, but you have to stop and you have to learn. And then you have to figure out how to get it into your flow and you might have to train other, bring others into the fold who, with whom you work. That's really, in healthcare, that's huge. So unless it's from, a large institution or system that brings it in and therefore it becomes a mandatory thing. individually, interdepartmentally, if you will, with hospitals. It's, that's a big challenge today. So not only does it have to be, great, but Even having the promise of 30 minutes, you're up and running, may be difficult to convince people. So I think we have a, blind spot, if you will, but I think there's that next step in, the journey of, adoption that we have to figure out to, get people to feel more at ease. And the more things that, again, I'm working with, one health tech innovation company that Incorporates AI, NASA algorithms, the more intuitive things are, the less frightening or, in your mind, it's I want to deal with that. So working on something that's like your iPhone, touch, tap, talk. So the more things we bring in, but they have AI algorithms, as part of what's happening on the back end, and they do less and get more out of it.
Don Finley:That's interesting. So as an investor, what gets you excited for the companies that you're investing in?
Jodie Green:I love investing in startups of all kinds. I really, we invest in people, not just ideas. Everybody's got an idea. and they don't have to have major credentials. Just meeting someone who can really articulate what they want to do. Not just, Oh, this would be so cool. but what's it going to do for that end user? And I've talked to many people, no doubt you have too, who want to build something launched on product or service because they think people should have this. Talk to those people. Do they want it? they make the time for it, even if it's affordable? sometimes free isn't even gonna get you to do it. I look for people who, were groups of people as it were, who are starting something up in any field at all, but particularly in, in tech, who. Have an idea, have the wherewithal, I think, to follow through. Have the emotional intelligence because that's a tough journey. Resilience is key and also not wanting to be the smartest person in the room because that means you're not going to learn, you're not going to listen to anyone else. So there are a lot of, not just the it, the idea, these other facets that I think will get that to market, if you will.
Don Finley:I, the thing that I love is that you mentioned all the things about a personal, like personality of the person and the identity that person has. And there has to be emotional intelligence. There needs to be an understanding that you want to be like, I tell people you want to be the dumbest person in the room
Jodie Green:Yes. That's how I feel
Don Finley:and and, or bring it to the Buddhist and be like, you know what? You really treat everything with childlike wonder. Because in that capacity, you are capable of learning and you're capable of finding new solutions and seeing it. But the other side of it is that you need to be solving a problem for someone and a community of people. is really important to be, engaging and look, you can solve a problem that you have. And I absolutely love entrepreneurs. They're solving their own problem because they're eating their own dog food. they're challenged by what their problem is and how to solve it. But additionally, if they can get out and find others that are there too, that's amazing.
Jodie Green:And that goes to your intersection of tech and, human centric purpose. And I know you've done that for yourself, to help facilitate improvements in your work. I know you had shared with me, I look forward to that too. I haven't yet done it, but hey, if AI can help me write more blog posts to get more awareness, which helps because as donations come in, we give things for free to everyone at the foundation. And it's everyone, because as with any other system, you're only as strong as your weakest link. And as I had mentioned earlier, if the custodian doesn't clean the OR, then surgeon won't be able to perform surgery. It's not going to happen. And so everyone counts. And we offer technology, actually health tech, but we also offer things like Uber rides. And if you're a resident working 87 hours starting out in a hospital, you should not be behind the wheel. Let us give you a ride. You're exhausted. But also if, any employee, then you don't have to be a practitioner to enjoy the benefit of that. And the dollars come in, we underwrite it. It's free. We're subsidized, to a great degree. And that's how we operate. We want to be immediate, put it right in the hands of people. We don't want to do a study. There are hundreds of studies. And so we know the problems here, but there's still hundreds, millions of dollars from the government still funding studies to look into burnout in healthcare.
Don Finley:that's fantastic. And I probably have two more questions. The first question that I want to ask you is, for anybody listening who would like to make a donation to CBF.
Jodie Green:Just go to the website cleanishandburnoutfoundation. org Make a donation if you would, any amount, everything counts. Like I, I say price of a pizza can go towards helping someone. we have a lot of physicians, nurses, all med tech support people and others who don't provide medicine, but enable those to do it, globally. The first two weeks after the website went up without any marketing, really just let's get that live. the first people who contacted me through the website contact form, the first was Bavaria, Germany, the second, the multi silence, the third Italy in Italian, but thanks to translation tools, you can do that. There's tech. so as bad as it is here, it's bad everywhere. People are desperate for help.
Don Finley:I was working with a shaman once who in the middle of a ceremony leans over to me and he goes, in a sick society it is the sick that are the healers.
Jodie Green:I love everything you say. I'm going to have to jot these down.
Don Finley:It's a good thing this is recorded.
Jodie Green:There you go.
Don Finley:but no, at the same time, and it just, it goes to show that we've taken our mental health, we've taken our overall health and put it on the back burner. And so in regards to the people that are going to be the ones that actually heal us through this, they've most likely had some trials and tribulations that showed them how important this is. I really thank you for doing the work that you're doing. and I hope that we can also help you out and the listeners will jump on and grab as well. But my last question for you, we have a bunch of listeners that are, entrepreneurs that are younger, what suggestions do you have for them as they go through their career and they, decide what they're going to be doing?
Jodie Green:think the biggest thing is, and I wish I had thought of this sooner. don't let people tell you, no, it's a bad idea. There's always the cognitive bias. Of course, that's not like something I know. That's the point of entrepreneurship. You want to do something different, not just to be different, but because you do believe it'll be better. don't let people talk you out of it. They haven't done it. They only know what they know. That's where the adoption later might or might not be a little more difficult. And you'll think about that, The whole journey of development and awareness and, introductions, proof of concept, what have you. don't, Let people tell you you can't, and you might be fearful and you'll have self doubts. It's okay. Because you know what everybody does, a lot of people don't want to show it, the imposter syndrome, but believe in yourself and you don't have to do it alone. Even if you don't have a partner in what you're doing, reach out, talk to others, talk to those who uplift you, not those who are just naysayers. And sometimes it's good to listen to those who don't believe us. Let's, why do you think that's not a good idea? And that's the learning, right? It's the objection handling, if you will. What do you think won't work? There might be a gem in there, and then you'll think about that. But those aren't the people you want to be hanging out and asking for advice.
Don Finley:Oh, I can. That is such solid advice. I can tell you that there isn't a day that goes by that somebody doesn't tell me no to something or tell me that the idea isn't that
Jodie Green:Of course.
Don Finley:at the same time, like you're right, you find your tribe. and with any business, all you need is a couple hundred like absolutely diehard clients. and there's, 9 billion people in this world. So you don't need to please everybody. Jodie, it's been an absolute pleasure. I got to say thank you very much for being on the show and it's been really insightful.
Jodie Green:I'm so thrilled when you invited me to be a guest. I've been so impressed with what you do, all of your guests. I've been learning so much from listening and it just is very exciting to me. And thank you for allowing me to spread the word of the Clinician Burnout Foundation. And my feeling is, again, I don't practice medicine, but You don't know whose life you might save, including your own, because if your favorite doctor retires, then, those 5, 000 patients they might be caring for over the course of their career, we're all left behind,
Don Finley:Exactly. Oh, this has been another wonderful episode. Thank you once again. Thank you for tuning into The Human Code, sponsored by FINdustries, where we harness AI to elevate your business. By improving operational efficiency and accelerating growth, we turn opportunities into reality. Let FINdustries be your guide to AI mastery, making success inevitable. Explore how at FINdustries. co.
