Gemma Goodale: Navigating numbers, managing motherhood and building a business.

We chat with owner of GGM accountancy, Gemma Goodale. Talking about building her accountancy firm from the dining room up, raising 4 children whilst being a working mother, building and leading a team and some top accountancy tips for small business owners and aspiring entrepreneurs. 

Transcript

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Joining me today is Gemma who runs GGM accountancy in Peterborough. Hello Gemma. Hi guys Gemma is obviously an accountant. She runs also a business. So we're gonna kind of split this in two sections So we'll go right back to the beginning So when did you wake up and decide that you are going to be an accountant? I think it was when I was still at school and you obviously go and do three weeks work experience and I really wanted to be a primary school teacher and that's what I then did my work experience in a school near where I lived and after that three weeks thought, no way, no I want to do this and then kind of just started to look at What else I was good at, what else would also pay me a good wage and obviously maths was something that I enjoyed, so then I just started to explore what the options were, really. Okay, so leaving school, did you go straight in to Yeah, so, did my GCSEs got some good grades there, and then obviously the natural progression was A levels, so every single one of my friends was doing that. So I did look at it, but then you could go straight into the accountancy course. So I thought, well, that's another two years that I'm going to be not earning money. And also, I don't need my A Levels to go on to that course. So I decided to leave school at 15. All of my friends stayed and I decided to go and find a college locally that offered the AAT course. So that's a really good accountancy course to give you a great start. So I found a job in a solicitors actually in their accounts department. And then I went and did that a day a week for two years. So then by 17, I think I was, I'd already pretty much finished a qualification, whereas everybody else was still doing A levels. So I was also earning money at the same time. Yeah. And then once I got my AAT, and there's two, there's level two, three, and four you're classed as an accounting technician, and then you can then decide if you want to leave it there or go on to do the chartered or certified exams. So. I decided then to go on and do the ACCA qualification, but I really, at that point, needed to be in an accountants. Right. So, I left and went to a small firm. And there was only three people, which also then meant that she couldn't afford to pay because it's an expensive course to do. So what I did was we agreed that she would buy me the books and then I just would study the books. And that's what I did for two and a half years. And she paid the exam fees every six months, bought me my study books. And then I just would sit at home and teach myself and I did it that way, which. One, it saved a lot of money and two, I was earning money at the same time as doing the exams and also didn't then end up with any sort of student loan because a lot of people say to me, well you didn't even go to uni, and I just think there's this. Sort of, everybody assumes that you have to go to uni to get a degree or a qualification and you can go to uni and do that exact same course that I did, but you don't have to. So it also meant I wasn't time constricted by set syllabuses. So obviously if I was finding one It's one of the topics quite easy. I could sit another one alongside it. Whereas some colleges they'll do one exam at a time. So you're time constricted on when you're going to finish. Same as if you go to uni and do your A levels. So I ended up finishing I think I was 21 when I had completely done. So it was nice because obviously I'd had what sort of four or five years. In a job earning money and also done the qualifications alongside it. Yeah. So, and gaining that experience as well from actually doing the job, being around that environment. Whereas you can't beat it at university, you're not gonna get that, you know, except you're putting into practice. Yeah. And I think that definitely does help. And you've also obviously got someone that is close by. So, although my employer at the time couldn't afford it. Obviously she was still there every day, so if there was a topic in the book that I was struggling with, I could still go to her and say like you would the teacher in the class, I guess. I don't get this please help. So she was really supportive like that. And it just meant that although, you know, some of, I couldn't go to college, I still had somebody there to kind of mentor me along the bits that I needed it. Yeah. And yeah, it seems like a lifetime ago now. How long ago was that? 15 years ago? Yeah, so I qualified with her and obviously the natural progression was for me to stay there. And I think, obviously help her grow that business and take over from her. Cause she'd had that practice about 30 years, but I kind of just wasn't ready to settle. Obviously I'd had another job previously, but. I still wanted to go out and see what else there was, so I decided to leave. And go to a much bigger firm and I left and went to a top 20 UK practice with national offices and it was completely different. Obviously, you've got much bigger clients, you've got a much bigger portfolio to manage, more staff more networking. So for my CV purposes, obviously not knowing what I was going to do at this point, I thought it'd be great to get a firm that size on there and grow, because obviously being in a smaller firm, sometimes there isn't that sort of ladder to grow with. Yeah. So it was hard at the time, because obviously I'd done all my training there and she was really upset, but. I just thought I needed to go and see what else there was out there, really. Yeah. So how old were you at that point when you moved? So when I moved I was 21. And I then had a couple of years at the bigger firm. Yeah. Yeah. So that's quite a bold move at 21. Yeah. You've kind of just been qualified. Yeah. And then throwing yourself into that company. It was, and it was quite a culture shock, really. Because the firm that I'd been at, and even the solicitors, they were family businesses. So you get to know the owners, you are like a work family, and then you leave that environment to go into a big corporate place, where You know, it's just a completely different environment and clients, at the smaller place, you get to know, whereas when you go to these bigger firms, it's impossible in your 37 and a half hour week to, to know personally every name on that portfolio of clients because it's just not the time and obviously because there's such a big team, you have to be a certain level to even meet with the client. I started to miss that I could see the client and get to know them and get to know their business and see how their businesses were growing because obviously I'd just joined so I was quite far down the pecking order in terms of who I could and couldn't speak to. So yeah, I, I started to then think, is the bigger firm something for me or not? Yeah. And so, what was then the step after that? So how long Did you stay at that company for? So I was there for two years and then I was pregnant, so, okay. That was the point really then that I thought, what am I doing here? Because obviously I'm gonna have nine months off. Yeah. And a newborn. How am I gonna make this work? I'd obviously got used to having a decent salary. I was fully qualified and didn't then wanna just end up staying on maternity bed end being. Used to that. So, it was kind of my grandparents, they'd always, their whole lives, my grandad had his own business in construction and I'd been spending quite a lot of time with them and they kept saying to me, you're coming home so late at night, you're not getting paid overtime, you know, like, why are you doing all this for somebody else? Yeah. You're treated the same as the people that Take the mic, you know, they're in late and then you're working really hard and Yeah. Not being any different to the others. So at that point, they were kind of like, Why don't you just do something for yourself? And I was like, no. You know, the thought of it was like, unknown. I was like, but then I won't have guaranteed money every month, like, how am I going to be okay? And they just kind of kept saying, you'll be fine you're used to maternity pay now, you know, that's not that much. Even if you only get a few clients, so you're only on maternity pay, you'll soon pick up. And it got to the point, I think, then George was born and They kept saying are you really going to go back, don't you want to have the flexibility, like you've got a baby, and they kind of just kept niggling away at me. So you were bullied into saying? Yeah, my grandparents just kept on and on and said, and then in the end they presented me with a cheque for a thousand pound and said, please take this cheque, go and buy a computer, and just do it. And that's what I did. I love that. I was like, so, I just thought, I said, I had the year off, so I had the nine months maternity pay, and then the next three months kind of started to think, right, where do I start? And I went into, obviously, my boss at the time and said, I'm not coming back. And he said, why not? Is it because, obviously, you want to be a stay at home mum? I said, no, I'm going to work for myself. Did he think that you'd wanted to be a stay at home mum? Really? Yeah, he just went, oh, you're just going to not come back now you've had a baby? And I said, no, I would never not want to work and he said, well, where are you going? Meaning what firm? And I said, I'm not going to another firm. He was like, what are you doing then? I said, I'm going to work for myself. And he just laughed and he said, see you in a couple of years, Gemma. Really? Yeah. Wow. And I think now that's so, that's super cutting, isn't it? And I think does he even remember because now their offices are just across the way from mine. Oh really? Yeah. And I think. I mean, I think he's retired now, but I think, you know, it's just things like that I would never, I've never forgotten, but them throwaway comments, yeah, but he doesn't even remember having that conversation. But it's just moments like that, when you do look back, you think, at the time it could really knock someone to then not do it. And I think things like that are quite I would call that character cutting. Yeah. They kind of, really that's obviously what they think of you and that's what they think of your character. And it's at that point, I think, that really kind of pushes you to be like, actually, I'm not this person that doesn't want to do anything and is happy just to take the kids to school every day and that's it. I want something more. So I think it's that pivotal moment, isn't it, where you push yourself then to go, do you know what, kind of up yours. Yeah, and it just kind of gives you that it was kind of like a moment, I just think, What? I was really like, peed off to be honest, I thought, is that how, you know, I've worked my absolute arse off here. Yeah, and earned them a lot of money, kept their clients happy. Yeah, and really tried, you know, and then that's the sort of reaction, but it, yeah, I mean, it's just what makes you go for it even further, I think, and it also helped me know that I was making the right decision, because obviously I went home to my grandparents and said. This is what happened and they were like, told you, you're not, there's no gratitude for you working how you have to the other people that just haven't. So that was it then and I just kind of thought, right, let's try and get a client and looked at advertising and ways I could start to get my name out there. So I started as a sole trader to start with just sort of me and. I used to do my invoices in Word and went in the local magazines. Things were so different, oh, we didn't have social media. No, so when would this have been? So this was 2010. 2010, yeah. So things were just so Different social media wasn't really a thing. No, there wasn't any Facebook. I think Facebook had not long been going, but it wasn't for business. It was all just sort of people talking to friends. Yeah, there was no Instagram, no Twitter really wasn't used. I think there was was it MySpace? Yeah, that was around, but again, that was just like a personal chat thing, wasn't it? So yeah, it was like local magazines and leaflets, like actually printed leaflets. Put them about in the local shopping center where I lived went in like the little magazine in the village and then kind of you get a client and they know someone. Yeah. And then they know someone. And that's how it's built. I mean, I've, I haven't ever looked back to see what I spent on advertising, but it's not a lot. No. Like I've never been networking and going out there. Trying to get work all the time. It's just if you do a good job for someone they then will always recommend you and You know when you are in a smaller town or you're working in sort of villages. Everybody knows everybody Yeah, and then word just gets about and yeah, that's kind of what happened So my first ever client was an electrical family business and I still do their books today Oh, wow, and they always say like You know, as I've moved offices and they've seen GGM grow and equally their business has grown as well. It's like we've had that journey together. Like when I used to go to theirs, it was in their living room, their office. And I'd go to the house like every other week and then now obviously they've got their own office and I now have an office. So it's been really nice really for the clients that have been with me right from the start. That we've kind of seen each other's journeys go together and obviously they're still here with me now. Yeah, and that's a massive testament in the whole ethos of the business, is just doing a good job, keeping in touch with them, and just growing with them. Yeah, and I've always said, that's what I missed about being in a smaller firm, you don't get that interaction with clients. You don't get to see what they're doing because there's just a set list of who can work on what job and here I've said to the girls, you know, however big we grow and however many clients we get, I never want to lose that side. You know, whether we see a client once a year or we see the client once a week, you treat everybody the same and equally have time to have a chat and a cup of tea with them when they come in and drop their books. So hopefully, you know. Our clients that have been with us a long time have seen that even though we're obviously grown and there's more staff in the building That level still is higher. Yeah no one's too busy to yeah, you know, obviously there's January's horrendously busy. But we always try to make time for everyone. Yeah. And like I said, when I interview people, I always try and say that's part of who we are. Yeah, so if you don't like speaking to people, we are not for you. No we like to see you and talk to you and just, you know, sometimes it's like with the tax side, if we're talking to you every once a year, after the year's finished. We can't help really because the year's over. Whereas if you throughout the year, keep up speed with how you're doing, or you are having a really busy six months and think, Wow, my tax bill's going to be big. Just talk to us, because then there obviously are things that you can do before it's too late. Yeah. The taxes are paid, because obviously we're an accountant, but Nobody likes paying a lot of tax, so, if there are ways that we can legally save it, obviously, that's what we're here for. Yeah, and doing the best thing for the business, which again goes back to that whole customer service. Yes, definitely. So, you're working at home, with a baby. George, yeah. George, with the baby. Yeah. So, Literally just working from home in the evenings. Yeah, so it's just like a dining room, really. Yeah obviously I'd work in the evenings when I had help. And then, kind of, it grew, so I needed a study, so we moved house. And then I had an actual office at home. And then, obviously, clients, more clients would come into the house, so. It got to a point where we moved again and then I had like the outside building which have become very popular since COVID. Yeah. So then I had an office at home, which was a lot bigger and outside. So we had a separate entrance because obviously I had a child and the dog and, you know, at least it was separate. We had a gate to the office, so it just upped it a little bit with this level of professionalism. Yeah, people are coming. And I kind of felt I was going to work a bit more. Yes. Although it was still at home, it was outside. Yeah. And that was when I first got a member of, another member of staff. Okay, so what was that member of staff? So, Victoria worked with me at my, at the big firm. Okay. So, she'd also recently had a child and I guess was having the same sort of thing. Because she was a manager there too, so there's a level of commitment that comes with being a manager in a firm that size. So I guess her thoughts were, obviously she still wanted to be a mum, but also earn money and have her own thing too. So we just kind of chatted, obviously we'd been quite close there. And I said, it's getting too much for me, like obviously, and I knew I wanted to have another baby. So she joined And I'm sure it's, she's been here nine years now. Wow. So, first ever employee, and she's still here with me today. So, it's really nice. She's obviously grown with the firm too, and is so committed. And then she had another baby too, and I had a baby. So we've just had that journey together really, and it's been nice. And it's nice that you can provide somebody else a bit more flexibility. You know, because the whole process of having children as well, is it very difficult to navigate when you also want to have a career and you are working for a company that maybe don't support that. So she's obviously found that nice to navigate because she's come back after. And some of the girls here don't have kids, but you know, it's if there's an assembly or it's the Christingle thing or what, you know, Mother's Day morning, no one takes half a day holiday because, you know. That's what it used to be like at big firms, and I just don't think that's necessary, so I always say, look, I don't want you to miss those things, just come in a bit later and stay a bit later. You have to put that trust in the people, and I think, obviously, that has helped with any of the girls here that have got kids, because, one, you don't know when the school's going to ring as well, you know, somebody's hurt themselves or is not well, and, you know, I just trust that they will always make their hours up, and once you've got a few people in the office, as long as there's somebody still here to get on with things and answer the phone and answer the door, you know, just at times, yeah, it's flexibility, really. Yeah. And it's a big thing when you're a working mum. Yeah. It makes it a lot easier because You do have that guilt, you know, when you're dropping them off and you try and be there for everything. But at least if, you know, you can not miss everything, it does make it easier that you try and have the best of both. Yeah. And then it makes you an employer as well that attracts people because there are amazing women that are very talented at what they do, but they're also a mum and it shouldn't be one thing or another. It doesn't have to be one thing or another. And I think that over my journey. You know, so many people, when I say I've got four kids, they're like, four? What? Obviously it is a big number. It is a little bit mad, I have to say. Yeah, but it's like, why do you have to be a mum and not work? Why does that not have to, why can you not have both? And yeah, okay it's been exhausting at times and four kids and not much maternity leave has been hard. But, you know, that's what I've been doing it for. You know, to provide for them and us have a, you know. Nice things, and they also know that you have to work hard to have those nice things. So, and you know, of course there's times where the kids will go, Oh mummy, do you have to go to work? Or And it's just trying to get them to see, I think, because I want them to grow up and see that if you have to work hard. Yeah. To get what you want, you need to put the work in. Yeah. And you make that decision and how are you going to get there? Yeah. So, hopefully, by having this alongside seeing them grow up, they will grow up and have that determination to succeed as well. Yeah, definitely. I think they've obviously been around the business. It's, you know, it comes home with you I'm sure as well and they've got, you know, I'm sure they've been around they've seen the different offices, yeah. And it's nice because although the, when I was at home in the office in the garden, if, you know, I could just nip in still and see them. So when I finally left that office, so after, God, that must have been Eight years ago. We outgrew that. So I had another member of staff then, so there was three of us. And we were just literally like files falling on our heads. It was so tight for space. So then the Barclays Bank in the village had closed, like a lot of the little branches are. So that building came up and my other half said, I think we should look at it. And I was like, really not being at home, it was just, I couldn't imagine it, because obviously I'd always been at home around him, and he was like, you can't fit any more. Yeah, there is no room, we can't extend. Yeah you cannot get bigger in this garden, in that office. So we went and had a look, and yeah, I mean, I've got videos of me with a jackhammer smashing that place to pieces. It was perfect, really, because it was only a mile up the road so I could still nip home if I needed to, all the schools in the same village, so I was not far, but it kind of felt like going back to work, it felt like at that moment I actually was going to work, although I'd been working, being at home I think is, it was just a different vibe, and I used to then get up and dress to go to work more, like it just kind of felt back to being how I'd been when I was employed a bit more. How did you find that? Was that a positive feeling? It was really odd, like I remember the night, when we'd got it all ready and it was all ready to go and we'd just, it was August bank holiday, it was baking hot and I remember us sitting in the garden and my best friend was there, she'd helped me move and obviously Victoria and the girls and we kind of just sat there and like we opened a bottle of champagne and It was like we were starting a new chapter, really, and even for them, I guess, not coming to their boss's house to work became, it was just really odd, and after a few weeks, obviously you forget then, but it was, that was the next big jump, I guess, getting our own premises. Yeah. And then we went there for, we lasted five years, and then we outgrew that. Wow. So Yeah, I mean time's just gone so quickly. It does, I mean, Georgie's 14 this year and it feels five minutes ago, but And I guess you work, I mean, you guys work tax year to tax year and then it just comes around and all of a sudden And then the year's gone, but yeah, that building, we had a, it was a lot of memories in that building. And the day we left that building, it was so odd seeing it empty. And moving here again, and we actually had to have removal people that time because obviously we'd accumulated so much files and a lot more clients by that point and all their files. So even that was odd, like having a removal firm come in and take everything out. And I think obviously COVID had hit. So it kind of highlighted that we were at full capacity, like keeping everybody. safe distance and a meeting space that was separate to the office. So that's when we kind of were like, right, the lease is up. Where can we go? And because COVID had hit at that point, there was a lot of space available. That's when we came over to the business park. So we've been here three years now. Okay. And that was a fantastic move. Yeah. Although. Obviously being on a business park. There's a lot more exposure. Yeah, and I think because we're on the end right near the road Oh, yeah, when you drive down the road, you can see the big sign because again, I've not gone out Networking or advertising this search like I always once a year try and support something local Yeah, and so whether it be a football team, obviously, we've done stuff with you Laura yeah, you try to you know, do something because it also does keep your name out there But it also is supporting something else locally Yeah. So like this year we've done, we've just done a local sports team and they had their 10 year anniversary party. So again, Dreams Project, who was one of our finalists at the Small Business Awards. So yeah, I saw that. That was great. And they've just they asked us if we could sponsor, they've done like 10, 000 copies of a puzzle book for kids. So again, things like that. I know the kids are not going to look at that puzzle book and go, Oh, there's an accountant, but it's just giving back. And it's a wider thing. I'm going to, I'm going to circle back on that in a minute. Okay. So you've moved to the office now, which is a huge office. You've got three meeting spaces and then a communal space, obviously loads of room upstairs. Yeah. It's way too big for us right now. When we took it on, I was like, wow, this seems huge. Like after out of, even going for, like we were at the brim in Yaxley, but it was like massively stepping up, but the stress of moving and not just our address to change. Obviously a lot of our clients use our address and every tax office is a different. So I just said, I don't want to move again. Like we need, this move needs to be lasting us a long time. So I knew the firm that was in here before they had 20 staff upstairs. So right now everyone's loving it because they've got two desks each and they're just like spread right out. Yeah. But yeah, there's plenty of room here for us to grow to a, yeah, a long time. And then, like I say, we've got plenty of space down here. So, we've had clients obviously hire the meeting room space with, you know, like we did the coffee morning here for Macmillan. So it's nice just to have that extra space. Yeah. And I guess it serves that purpose as well for your clients to give them a good service. have a nice safe space they can come and chat to people and that personal touch. And even like sometimes obviously we meet with the bank managers, people's solicitors, people's F. A. So, it's quite a nice space that actually now we get everybody here together rather than have a client meeting and then they go and talk to their solicitor, then they go and talk to their financial advisor. So, you know, we can all just sit down together here. It saves conversations going over and over different people, so that's been nice that we've been able to host as well. Rather than going out to the solicitors or going out to, we're actually able to host here, so that's nice. Yeah. No it's a lovely space. So, the, I want to talk to you about being an employer. Yeah. Because this is something, obviously, when you started. Maybe you didn't really think that you would have to navigate on the scale that you have. So, you move to the old Barclays office in Yaxley. So how many staff did you have when you moved there? Three? Yeah, there was three of us at that office. And then when you left that office, how many were you then? There was six of us when we left. Okay, and then what do you stand at now? Now we're at nine. Okay. I'm recruiting desperately for more people. So yeah we're just turning work away at the minute because we just can't service it and I don't want it to affect the clients that we've got. We need a couple more people and then hopefully we can start to take on more work again. But, I mean, there's plenty of space upstairs. We're an all girl team, which Are you? Yeah, and it's always just felt like that. Even recruiting at the minute it's just very rare we get guys. Really? Yeah. So, I don't know how a guy would now feel coming into work, but it's usually a bit of an old girl office. Yeah, but it's all girls, which you know, everybody gets on fine. It's like a work family. We all have stuff going on and you come in and have a rant about it, don't you? But yeah, I mean at some point we might get a guy that braves it. Yeah, that joins the force. I mean Johnny comes in quite a bit, so that's something. Brings everyone to Starbucks and that. Yeah, it just brings the good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Makes everyone happy. And then leaves his mess and his mud. But yeah it's all female, which I don't know if the industry is. I mean, looking back when I was at that bigger firm, it was probably 50 50. Yeah. So I don't know if I was gonna say, as the industry I don't see it as 100 percent male orientated or female orientated it is I have seen kind of yeah a good mix so it's just maybe it's just you're they look at the website and see it's all girls and then go nah maybe or maybe it's just your ethos and your values attracts more women maybe you know women flexibility with a family and stuff well yeah and also the customer service element you know you're very forward on that. That's a really big priority and maybe it just attracts more women. But you know, it's inevitable, I've said to the team at some point, if we get to 20 members of staff, surely they can't all be women. We will have a man, eventually. Yeah. There will be some, yeah. Yeah. So is there any guys out there that need a job? Yeah, you are open to it. Yeah. So as much as it's a very family orientated, lovely team, I'm sure there has been some trials and tribulations in terms of being. The boss. Yeah. And decisions that you have to make. How have you found that process? Are you a natural manager, do you think? I don't know. I mean, we've, I've not had a huge staff turnover, so hopefully that's a good sign. Yeah. And you know, we've got a girl leaving in a minute, but that's because she's moving out of the area with her partner's job. So, because you do take it personally. If somebody leaves and you've been part of a team together, you're like, why are you leaving? What's wrong? Yeah. I need all your reasons. Yeah. Why are you going and because also for clients it's a change because obviously we don't assign a certain person to a client but You naturally get to know certain clients when you're dealing with them year on year. So, if somebody's been here five years and then they're going, it's not just me that goes why, the client will go why they're going. Yeah. So, it's important to understand that and, you know, if it is something like they're having a baby or they're going out of area, that's, you know, out of my control. But it's ha it's hard. Being an employer is hard. Yeah. Because, I think as an owner, you not expect everyone to be the same as you, but you I think you get caught up in the, there's a level of expectation that I obviously strive to have. And, you know, I'm very lucky in that a lot of the team, you know, want to progress and want to do well and give it their all, but not everybody does. And when that happens, you know, it's hard to try and deal with that. And to start with, I think because, you know, if you get to know people as well, you have to sometimes think. It's work like so, you know, sometimes I've had to have difficult conversations if things are not up to standard or you know But then we likely go out the next week and have a nice time So I try and say to girls like obviously yeah There are times where I need to have a my own or there's issues about things But we don't then drag that on like it's addressed and then we carry on as a team that we are. Yeah I don't want any hostile environment because no when you aren't What you can't hide when you're a small team. There is no hiding. Yeah, so someone's having a bad day. Everybody knows about it. Yeah So do you think that's something that you've maybe learned from working in a corporate environment where maybe there have been? I'm not saying bullying tactics, but I think that's more commonly used in that bigger environment where it's you know, like it or lump it Yeah, there's not much care or consideration. So things can get very bitter quite quickly Yeah, and I think like there when I you know, you if you're a manager expected to do overtime Yeah. That's just an expectation. You don't get paid, but you're expected to do it. So if ever I wanted to leave on time, I'd tiptoe downstairs because it was, like, frowned upon. And I've said to the team I don't want that environment. No. You, if you do overtime, you'll be paid it because you are providing your own time to do work on my clients that we will get paid for. Yeah. Obviously, if they've made a mistake or whatever and they just want to stay late to correct it, that's different. Yeah. But if they're here doing chargeable work. over their hours, then why would you, why would I not pay them? And that's just something I've never understood. But yeah, I mean. I've had to sack a couple of people, that's not nice. No. The first time I did it I think I took a shot of vodka and It's a Dutch courage. Because you feel awful, yeah. But equally But I think that says a lot about your moral compass as well, that you care and it's not just Yeah. We need to earn money, this is the target, it's, you know, they are people, and we all have feelings, and you've felt the same way as probably they feel about things, so. And sometimes things just don't work either side, so, you know, you can get a candidate that comes in, and they're not the right fit for me, but you can also get a candidate that comes in and this firm is not the right fit for them. Yeah. Because it is really hard To decide after an hour or two interview process on whether that person is going to fit into a team our size Yeah, because like you say when it's a big corporate, there's plenty there's places to hide, you know, you're all in separate offices Yeah, you're all in a big building and when you're in a smaller firm and you're all together, it's more crucial, I think, that the fit of the person, obviously qualifications is a qualification, but it's also the person that matters to the team and to our client base. Yeah. So recruitment is, has been one of my biggest challenges, I would say. Yeah. And I'm sure you've met plenty of accountants that you think, you're not my person. Yeah. And they could be a great accountant, but like you said, it's the whole package, isn't it? Fitting it. It has to be the whole thing because, you know, The rippling effect of having the wrong person, not just with the rest of the team, with clients, it can be detrimental, you know. Yeah, especially when you're so focused on that customer service, and the right support, and obviously everyone needs to be at their best, and if there's an unhappy environment, then it just has a knock on all round. Yeah, and like I say, because we've had a lot of our growth organically through client recommendations. That has to be right because you'll only get the recommendations from clients if you're doing a good job. So, and that's what I say to the team. Like obviously a lot of the time we don't have great news like sitting here with people telling them what tax they've got to pay. So sometimes you don't get much recognition. Job recognition isn't because a lot of people sit in a meeting and they're moaning about what their bill is. But what I say to the girls is you might not get many thank yous from clients. But the fact that they stay year on year is our Because there are plenty, I mean, where we are on this business park, it's been a great move for us. But it's also accountant central. Yes. There is plenty of other firms around here that clients could go to that are much bigger than us. Yeah. And how do you navigate that, that situation with the client where you've got to give some news that they're not going to be happy about? And especially when you are so customer focused, how do you navigate that? We try and make it in plenty of time. So, We always send out automated reminders when a client year finishes. Obviously, the tax year is the same every year, but we still get clients going, when do I have to put my books in? So we always send the automated reminders to get, try and get people to bring it in early, because at least if there is a big bill to pay, it's not due tomorrow. Yes. Because that's the worst when people are bringing their stuff in January. And then I'm like, right next week, here's a 10, 000 pound bill. Yeah. I mean, if you'd known about that in May, at least you had time. To be prepared for it. Yeah, so we do encourage obviously bringing things in early And then there's more planning available But it's not nice. No one really likes paying tax and no Unfortunately, that's the way of life and we Don't get commission. No, that would be nice, wouldn't it? Yeah, it would be lovely. And things constantly change. So that's another bigger part of it. Because, you know, an allowance that might have been there last year, especially as we've had COVID, there was obviously a lot more allowances and things the government were doing to try and help everybody. And then we sit down now, now, and they're like, Why has my tax bill gone up so much? I've not made any more money than I did last year. Because the government is out there going, how can we get all this tax back? Like corporation tax has gone up. Obviously we had a super tax that they brought in for COVID. So all these things that have now stopped, all the rates have gone up, everybody's like worse off. And they're saying, why is my bill, you know, so much higher? I've made the exact same profit as I did the year before. Yeah. So there, there's sort of difficult conversations. Yeah, but I guess it's the educating. Yeah advising them It's all part of the service. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, it is and navigating their business growth or their journey with them Yeah to be part of that solution rather than the problem of having the tax. That's it. And as part of the growth we now have Sally in house, so she's a tax trained accountant, which is very different to being an accountant. Okay. So prior to Sally joining, obviously if there was anything more tax, Saying that is more specialist. We would always outsource it or I would get somebody in so it got to a point where I was able to get Sally in and we now have her in house as a tax Accountant and specialist so that's been great for clients It's been great for the team because it's so different to bring in a helpline to having somebody here that can show you more things And you know is more trained on the tax side of things so that's been a really a good change that we've been able to bring in and she's been here two years in May. Okay. So a lot of the clients know her now and any tax sort of questions they will ask for Sally. And you know, feedback from the team is that it's definitely helped more their tax knowledge because as an accountant, you do obviously business tax, you do law and you do the income tax side, but. There's obviously so many taxes that the bigger clients we get, it's more applicable and obviously things come in every year, there's R& D and so it's been great that we've got her in house now and can have that sort of benefit for us and the team and clients as well. Yeah, and it's a value added isn't it for everyone to benefit from. Yeah, so she's obviously helped make some good savings for clients as well over the last couple of years. Well, it's, I guess, the It's all there, isn't it? Like all the taxes, you don't come up with them. No. All the legislation, it's there. It's just finding, piecing the puzzle together for each client that's going to benefit them the best. Yeah. And obviously every year we have the budget, that's not far away again. So, you know, we listen in on that day, the same as everyone else. We don't get, I think everybody thinks you get inside information of what's coming out, which. You know, a lot of we do our CPD and go on these courses and they, you know, you talk about whether the, what might be the changes based on news, but we literally have the radio on that day. You never know what's going to happen. Yeah. They can throw something out there. We're like, what? And then, you know, the phone starts going mad because clients start ringing because they've heard this is being abolished or now there's this and we're hearing it exact same time as you. So that's always a hectic time because obviously then instantly we need to know that new legislation. Yeah. And our software needs to be up to date and so budget time is always interesting. And quite a high pressure time, I guess, for you, especially, I mean, navigating COVID was such a high pressure time. I mean, I think at that point I wished I was employed. Yeah. I was, you know, I just had a baby and so she was born June 19. Obviously COVID hit Feb 20. And I suddenly needed to get my team working remote, like that was the first thing, like we were fully office based, actually. So then I'm like, got a six month old, trying to get my team. to work at home. Clients are literally, it became like a hotline. It, I mean, we needed an extra line. It was just constantly engaged because everybody was ringing us like, what am I going to do? We had furlough claims coming out of our ears like. Yeah, so during, so Covid hits, how many clients have you got at that point? Oh, probably 200. Wow. 250. So that's a lot for people to, and obviously they've got their teams as well. So we just were then inundated with work. but I mean, we got through it, and, You know as the months went on the rules changed and the percentages went down But that was hard that year that first year was really hard business as well that we're facing Uncertainty of not even just how do I do furlough, but how do I run my business? How do I keep going? It was so, it's so mad when you look back. Yeah. And. Because we'd been so client focused and faced, like you just didn't see anyone for so long. And it was so nice once we could reopen again and obviously have clients back in the office, even with a mask on to just see people again and have that interaction. When they're facing that time where they are really stressed, they're struggling, they need that the most. Yeah. Kind of human interaction and something to have a chat with in a coffee and go. What do we do? Eventually obviously we'd get some of the team back, so we kind of wrote it. So there wasn't as many of us in at once, so we could sit opposite ends of the room. And then it was at that point that I said, enough's enough, we need to get a bigger space. Yeah. And that's obviously, so we kind of moved, not long, I think it was. 21 summer 21. During still COVID was ongoing, but obviously a lot of business like the firm that was in this building prior to me, they just never came back to the office. Yeah. So, you know, we could have took that opportunity where there was a lot of space available. I moved during that period. And then once we were here, we didn't have no more tape on the floor and having to measure the meters and it was nice. Again, And for a long time, a lot of clients just came in, I think, because they could. Yeah, and it's interesting that you took that move, like you said, as people were shutting down and everyone was staying at home, you were like, you know, this doesn't fit in with our ethos, and this doesn't fit in with what we want to do and want to provide. So it's just interesting that kind of switch, I guess, from a lot of companies. Yeah, and like everybody, it was such a cliche, like everything happens for a reason. You know, I don't know. It was, it did definitely, it's helped with the growth of GGM. It's helped with us having been able to host more, be more part of the community. Yeah. It's definitely exposed us, it's took GGM to the next level, I think, that move. Because we're now on the business part with other big firms. You know, we're nowhere near the size of a lot of them. But you never know, at some point we, we might be. Yeah. And so, leading on from that, so where is GGM going? What is the vision for the business? I mean, I've never ever done a business plan either. No. In 14 years everybody says, Oh, what was your business plan? Do you look back at it? And I think, I didn't write one. No, because I think some businesses just start so organically, and you don't really know where it's going, but you're here for whatever it throws. Yeah, and I think, you know, so many people can get focused on planning for a plan. Yeah. You know, and People say, I think the big shocks are, I have four kids, and one, I didn't go to uni and left school at 15, and three, that I didn't really have any training. I mean, I trained myself. Yeah. And I think society has become like, you have to do A Levels, you have to go to university to be successful no you don't. No, there's so many different routes now. There's so many different avenues. You know, that's what I try and say to my kids you just need to figure out what are your strengths and, you know, we will support you, whatever path you choose to take, but just because that's right for one mate of yours doesn't mean that's the right path for you. So, I think, I mean, I don't ever write like where I want to be in five years, but I see something the other day and it's 10 years ago you dreamt of where you are today. Yeah. And it is so true. But you just, when you're in it, you just don't really take any notice. No. But I think, yeah, I'd say in 10 years we'll still be in this building. Yeah. Because there's plenty of space and hopefully all our clients are still here that have been with us for the whole journey. We've gotten bigger team and just. Yeah, you can take on more people that are waiting to join. And just still, and be a firm that people want to come and work for. Yeah. And be part of, really. Anything other than GGM that you'd like to do? Is there any like a passion project or random, if you could fit it in? Yeah. Is there anything, is there any business that you'd think I'd really love to do that if I had the time? I always said about being a party planner, but I think I just, with having four kids, there's four parties a year that I plan anyway, but I love that job and. I really did think if I had more time, I'd love to do something like that. Yeah. But other than that, not really. No, you're enjoying still what you're doing. Yeah, and I, you know, obviously everybody has days where they think, oh. But, yeah I love, I think you just, When you're in it every day, sometimes you do need to take a step back and go yeah, where am I going? What am I doing? And time goes so quick like obviously we worked deadlines all the time. But yeah, I think Just carry on doing what we're doing, really. And I'd like to get a bit more involved with the community. We did the last couple of years, we've done things for the local hospital at Christmas. Yeah. And the Women's Aid Centre. I was talking to Charlotte, one of the girls, the other night about maybe we do a summer event, like a run or a sponsored run or something. So, to try and just fit more of that in, and if we can get back to being fully staffed, so we've all got a bit more time on our hands. Yeah to just But you do all an awful lot to give back, and it is not necessarily even a business decision. There's not, kind of, things that you do, and there is You know, we all have ulterior motives, and it has to serve a purpose, but for you, it doesn't necessarily seem to be like that, so why is doing things for the community and giving back such an important thing for you? I think just because obviously I've lived here my whole life, and I think going through the last sort of 14 years, and you meet so many people from all different stages of life and all different scenarios, and Everybody's circumstances are different, and I think it just opens your eyes a bit, really, as to you know, we can all do our little bit, and just being kind and that's what I try and say to the kids just, you don't know what someone's going through, and I think the more you know, it was not last Christmas, it was the Christmas before, when we first spoke to Women's Aid, It just makes, there's so much going on and you just can become so consumed in everyday life that you don't really realise that if actually everybody could just give a little bit of time it does make a big difference. Yeah. I think, just reading some of the stories from when we did a collection for the Women's Aid, it broke my heart. You know, there's so many kids that, they're just in such awful situations. So, I think just being and hearing things and, you know. Somebody that, if we can help one person have a better Christmas that year, you know, it's just nice to know. And obviously we have, we've, I think, probably got about 400 clients now, but, you know, even if half of them dropped a present off, there's 200 gifts for kids there. You know, so our outreach isn't massive, and you know, social media for us, we don't get a lot of work through social media, but we do it because, you know, Like sharing things and sharing that's when it can get obviously. Yeah, it has a cumulative effect And the first year we did it for women. I mean God we had amazing the landing upstairs was absolutely filled with brilliant presents and you know, and you do then think actually that's probably took A day of my time that month and we've now got a landing full of gifts for all their mums that are in that situation that they can now go and give their child a gift that they wouldn't have been able to. So I think doing more and just, it just widens your eyes really as to what things that might not take up too much of your time can actually really help people. Yeah, and it gives you a great feeling as well, like I definitely feel like I, We all have a duty to do something and give something back. Yeah. And especially when you are in a position where you are able to, it's so important. And even if you're not in a position to pay any money, you can volunteer your time. yeah. You know, there's so many different things you can get involved with. But I do think that you do an unprecedented amount of stuff for the community, which is just so nice to see. Yeah. And like you said, you've done football teams to, Peter a women's aid to the hospital. So it's all kind of having an effect all around in Peterborough so, yeah, it's just little things really that go a long way for some people. So we do what we can. So as you are an accountant and we've got lots of business. Owners, entrepreneurs, aspiring people, interested and listening. Let's go through a little bit of accountancy stuff. So I have got some questions that people have sent in on Instagram for you. But what, if you're a business, or you're an aspiring business owner, you want to set up your business, what advice would you give them from an accounting perspective that they could do? Definitely get some software. So there are so many free apps available. So, if you, there's invoice to go is a great one. Just try from day one to get some software to track your expenses and your incomings. Because one, if at some point you get to the point where you need to go VAT registered, it makes it so much easier because you're already on software and you've got that history. And two, it makes it so much easier for your accountant. Yeah. So, your fees are likely to be less if you're on software than bringing in a bag of receipts, which we still do have. Do you? But we try. See, I think we're in such a digital age now. Yes. I couldn't think of anything worse than. No. We do have a couple that we've not nagged clearly enough that I'm like, next year don't be bringing that bag of receipts in all crumpled up like that. But yeah, it's just, it takes so much longer, you know, like we then have to un put them in an order, go through them all. Are they even in the right month or year? Sorting them into the different categories. So if you, the more organized you are, the better for you to be able to also track how you're doing month on month. And two, the better for us because it's in a nicer order and then you, it won't take us as long, so your bill's going to be smaller. So software is key. Get a separate bank account, please. Don't be doing a one bank account with all like your personal stuff and your business stuff. Yeah. Because one, if ever you get an investigation, you don't want HMRC going through everything that's personal. Two, it means your accountant's got twice as long. We have to go through and figure out what's personal, what's not. What's the hazardous shopping business or personal? So, we just always say, you know, and a lot of the banks offer at least a year free banking. Yeah. And a lot of the, if you do a lot of it online, which we do now, like transfer, it's only things like cheques and banking cash that a lot of the banks charge for anyway. Yeah. So we always try and say just get a separate bank account. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So I'm going to lead on to some of these questions because some of them are very interesting so somebody has sent in and said that they are worried about using an accountant because they are really disorganized. Yeah, I mean, we will try and get you organized for sure. So we have an online portal, so that will always send you automated reminders. So if you are disorganised you know, everything's on email, so you'll automatically get them. And then when you bring your stuff in, they stop. And then like I say, each year we do, when we sit down, try and say to you like, this is how you could obviously make things better for us. You and your tax situation. Yeah, so Yeah, there's no shame Like I say, we still now get people bringing in a Tesco bag full of receipts But we do try and say right next year, let's not have it in such a state Because it helps them as well as you doesn't it? Yeah, and you know, there's stationary, just go up to Wilco There's just so much cheap stationery to get organized Like just get a monthly folder and just have a folder for your receipts per month you know depending on the volume, but it's just like Stationary just that could just make life so much easier. Yeah, and who doesn't love a to do list or a planner? Yeah, a nice stationery and that's an allowable cost too. So you could get organized and put your receipt in and claim that back. Yeah, so No, that's our job is obviously to organize it into a nice State to calculate everything, but the nicer it is the easier and cheaper it is. Yeah. Yeah, exactly Yeah, so the next question is there a retainer fee to sign up to use an accountant? So I'm guessing they mean, you know, you have to pay for example like a thousand pound down as a deposit and then you pay then for extra things on top. Yeah, I know some firms do that especially if you're new because they could end up obviously not paying the bill. Yeah. But it's not every firm's. A lot of firms as well will say we want you to pay monthly on a sort of payment on account. Yeah. Now I don't, I've never done that. One, because I don't believe in taking somebody's money when we've not actually done any work. Okay. And two, I think No one ever really knows where they stand. So, you know, what we do is we will let people pay monthly, if it's for their cash flow reasons. Yeah, I it's Rather than getting one big annual bill at the end, could we just pay you an amount per month? And then what we do is it just sits there on their account and then obviously when I issue the bill, if it's the, it's never going to be exact, but we then just settle it up at the end of the year. Yeah. Either way, if it's Obviously if they've paid too much we give it back, or if they need to pay a bit more they pay a bit more. But we just tend to bill when we've actually done the work. Yeah. Because I just, you know, you get your hair done and then you pay. It's just a lot more transparent isn't it? Yeah. It's just. Yeah. That's good. Somebody said, do I need to earn a certain amount to use an accountant? Well, no. There's not a rule that you have to. Obviously at the start it's another cost that you've got to outlay. The revenue always know if you've got an accountant so They know you're then not submitting things yourself and having it done by a professional. Obviously, our fees are allowable, so that cost does get offset against your income to bring your tax bill down a bit further. So, you don't have to have one. It's not like a set earning amount, say and whatever you're earning, like I say, the bill is an allowable expense, but it's, you've got to get to a point, obviously, where you can afford it. Am I right in thinking though that obviously a smaller company turning over less, the fees are going to be lower than a big multi million pound company? Yeah, they will be because if you're not VAT registered and you're just a sole trader, you really just need an annual tax return doing. Yeah. Whereas obviously if you're a limited company, you need You still need your personal tax return, but you also need a company tax return, you need a limited set of accounts, you might have a payroll because you're then technically an employee of your own company again. So, limited obviously does come with additional costs, but there's also tax advantages as well. So it's just weighing that up really. Yeah. Which leads me on to my next question nicely. So, they said, I have been trading for four years, do I need to go limited? Going limited doesn't really matter in terms of time. It's at what income level you're at. And just to interject those people that don't know what limited is. So as a limited company, yeah. So rather than being a sole trader it's just another way of setting up your business as a limited company, which as a limited company you. more by company's house. So the accounts that you file are publicly available, whereas when you're a sole trader, they're not. So some people don't want to go limited because they think everybody can see everything which you can't see everything. But you do have to file and you can go on Google and find somebody's. business on there, but it also gives you that level of protection. So the company is a completely separate entity to you. So, but in terms of earnings or a time, it's just, we would need to look at what the profit levels are because obviously corporation tax is completely different to income tax. So it's more about what the level of income is and profits rather than how long you've been trading. Some people, like I went as a sole trader to start with. Just because I didn't know how I was going to do or if it would be a success. But It's, some people, I've got clients that have been a sole trader for 20 years, they just don't want to go limited, even though we say you'll be better off, they just don't want to be limited. No. So it's a conversation that I guess you have. Yeah, it's just per client really, and then, but we will automatically look at that year on year, like we will do a sole trader versus limited company tax comparative and then it's down to the client. Or some people we get, they've just rang us up, they've set a limited company up from day one. And they just want to be limited from day one. They don't even want to be a sole trader to start with. Yeah. So it's each to their own really, but our job is to say, is that the most tax effective way of you trading? And you know, depending on the sector they're in, sometimes limited is better just for the protection side. Yeah. So we will just have them conversations when we sit down annually really. Yeah. Or when we get a new inquiry. Amazing. So. I think we've covered everything. I feel like we've been from Dane, Gone back in time, Yeah, gone from the business, And then a little bit of the tax advice. So, GGM accountants, you can find them on social media. They put lots of information on Instagram, kind of updates and stuff which is useful and blogs on the website. So, that's always a great resource to check out as well. Obviously, if you are looking for an accountant, they are available. Even if you're not local to Peterborough, that's absolutely fine. No, we do have clients all over the place actually now. Yeah, so, you know, you can reach out to them and they can help you. They've been very supportive with the Small Business Awards, supported all of our events and just I feel a great company to be involved with. So definitely would recommend to use them. But thank you so much for joining me Gemma. Laura, it's been fun. And giving us a bit of an insight into your business but also accountancy world and the crazy brain that is an accountant. Yeah. But thank you. No worries.