Episode 17 - With Hayley Ramm

In this episode I'm chatting to Hayley Ramm about her grey hair journey, having short hair and the power of getting outside every day.

Transcript

Happier Grey with Hayley Ramm

Helen: Hello and thanks for joining me, Helen Johnson, for the Happier Grey Podcast. I'm pro-ageing and love my grey hair, but I know it can be quite intimidating to take the plunge, so each week I'll be chatting to other women who've chosen to embrace the grey in the hope of inspiring and supporting you, whether you already have silver hair, in the process of going grey, or just considering ditching the dye.

Today I'm joined by Hayley Ramm. She's been married for 25 years and has two children who drive her mad, but are her world too. Nine years ago, she set up her own business as a freelance support specialist to help HR professionals tackle their huge to-do lists. Hello, Hayley. How are you?

Hayley: Hello, Helen. I'm very well. Thank you for the invite. 

Helen: I'm going to start by asking you, when did you first find a grey hair?

Hayley: I was 23. 

Helen: Okay.

Hayley: 25 years ago. Yeah, my very first grey hair, I was literally 23. It was quite a shock. But I have to say I didn't really get any more. It was just like this random one, two, three that I had and, just stayed there for quite some time. And the only reason I started colouring my hair was really fashion at the time.

It was just, something I wanted to do. It wasn't covering greys or anything like that. It was just something I wanted to do, for fashion and, for trying something different. But yes, to answer your question, I was 23, 25 years ago. How scary is that?

Helen: And it was a bit of a shock to the system?

Hayley: Just a bit. I did pull it out. I know you're not meant to do that. I pulled it out because I was in denial. So, I did pull it out.

Helen: I think a lot of people, if they're honest, probably pull the first one out. So, did you have long hair then or short hair?

Hayley: I had short hair. I had to think there, because I grew my hair just before I got married, thinking, you know, I'll have nice long hair and, I'll do a pin up and, all the rest of it and, have a beautiful tiara in. Anyway, I got frustrated with growing my hair, and I literally cut my hair short, a few days before my wedding day.

 So, that's when I went short and I've been short ever since. So it was a couple of years after getting married. I was definitely short then as well. Yes.

Helen: When you were in the dyeing phase, what sort of colours did you experiment with? 

Hayley: Lots of browns. I even black at one stage which was just whoa. That just drained me. That was not a good idea. But lots of browns and then, lots of highlights. So, highlights started creeping in, which just ruined my hair to be honest. Not just the feel and the texture of it, but it just started to look not like me. 

I’m quite a natural, take you as you see me kind of person. I’m not high maintenance. I can’t even keep up with doing gel nails for goodness sake. I’m that rubbish at that kind of stuff. So, trying to keep up with dyeing my hair was just too much time, and not much fun, and too much money.

And yeah, so the colours were very much browns with highlights.

Helen: Okay, and did you do them yourself, or did you get the hairdresser? 

Hayley: Before the highlights when it was just me dyeing my hair, I did it myself. Off the shelf. Davina McCall, what was the product she used to promote? I can't remember now, but it was her product, that she promoted. And I used to just do it myself because at that point, I'd had Grace.

It was the baby days. Well, you can't even find time to make a cup of tea in those days, can you? So, to find time to go and dye your hair, was never going to happen. So yes, I used to do it myself over the sink for quite a number of years. But the highlights, no, that was always done by a hairdresser.

Helen: Okay, and can you remember when you decided to stop? 

Hayley: Hmm. It was probably, where are we now? It was probably about a year ago. Or have I been grey longer? It was probably about a year to eighteen months ago. 

I think what had happened, we came out of Covid, as we all did, changed people, for many reasons. Desperate to go to the hairdresser. Desperate to get it cut, and back into shape, and have it dyed, all the rest of it Did all that.

And, because my hair is short and it's a pixie style, I really wanted the silver look. I really liked the silver look. I tried to do the silver look with my hairdresser and my hair just wouldn't take to it. So, it would look brilliant for about three days after having it highlighted.

I would look silver, it would look highlighted, it would look natural. It would look great, but honestly it would last about three days. And then I would need it doing again. And so, for the rest of the month, I then just looked like a brassy blonde. It didn't look a nice colour. It was a yellow. It wasn't good.

So, from having months of trying to get to the colour I wanted. Then having to go to the hairdressers more often. Then hitting the summer months where my hair just went crazy colours. I just thought, what am I doing here? And I remember us going on a summer holiday, and I had my hair coloured for the summer holiday, because I thought, I want to feel nice going on my holiday, but when I come back, that is it.

Because my hair will be completely ruined from the chlorine, from the sunshine, and all the rest of it. I'm not then gonna have it dyed again. So yes, that was when I stopped. I suppose I didn't have the pain barrier that a lot of people have if they have long hair, because mine is short, so I guess it was within six to nine months.

It was through, it was done. It was probably really only ugly for about three months, but that was during the winter months so I just kept wearing a cap or a hat to disguise the mess. 

Helen: Very good, obviously a little bit jealous of that because I do have long hair, and I did have long hair when I was growing out, and only ever went sort of jaw length bob length. So, I had the line and I had a solid colour as well. I think if you had highlights, it's a little bit less obvious 

Hayley: Definitely agree. It's funny because, I remember getting compliments about my] hair as my colour was growing out. And I always remember somebody saying to me, your hair's kind of like a salt and pepper colour. And that stuck with me. And I thought, I actually quite liked that idea. I quite like salt and pepper because that means I'm not black brown, I'm not grey, I'm just a mixture of the colours. And it was somebody saying that to me, I thought, actually yeah, I would be quite happy if my hair looks salt and pepper like. But you're right, I have been lucky because it's short, I didn't have the line, it didn't go on for months.

You know, so hats off to you that have stuck through that pain barrier.

Helen: I think it is a choice. I mean, a lot of people do decide to go short just to get the process through quicker.

Hayley: Yeah,

Helen: But then it depends how comfortable you are with short hair. And I had some very dodgy short hair cuts in my 20s, so. With asymmetric fringes and steps in with bits shaved and all of that sort of stuff, and it's like, I really don't want to go there again.

Hayley: We all try these things, when I had bobbed hair, I had extensions in. So, I had extensions. So, my hair was the length of yours, Helen. I mean, can you even imagine me with all this hair? Because I've got such a small frame sort of from my shoulders up, and quite a small head. I had all this hair. It just didn't look right. 

So yeah, I suppose at least I didn't have to do that transition of going from long to short, and short to grey. I've been short for so long that everybody recognizes me as a short haired person. So just the grey step was the only thing I really had to deal with.

Helen: How have you found everyone's reaction to you going grey?

Hayley: Yeah, quite good actually. I’m mean the kids are brutal, aren’t they? Kids are, you know, honest. Too honest sometimes. But yeah, they like it. If I get the thumbs up from the kids and my husband, I'm a bit like, oh, well, if they're liking it then, and I'm liking it, then we're good to go. We're good to go out into public. 

And I think because it was gradual, it wasn't such a shock either. It was quite a gradual transition. I wasn't going from the solid colour. I'd already had the highlights. I think it just naturally happened. That it made it easier for people just to, yeah, see my hair.

And, even now when I think back, I met with a business colleague last week, and we've not actually seen each other face to face for several months. And she actually said, “Oh, I like your hair, the colour really suits you”. And even some people have said, “Is that yours or, you know, do you get it done that way?”

 It obviously does look quite natural. So, I am quite pleased with it, and it's in much better condition as well. I have to say much better condition, which is great.

Helen: Yeah, I'm with you in my hair used to get very dry, very sort of brittle, split ends. Never shiny unless I've just come out of the hairdressers.

Hayley: Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And I'm really conscious of my hair as well, because it is short and because I'm of that age.  I am aware that it's thinning slightly, which I think is the downfall then of having short hair because that becomes more apparent, but now I can invest my money, in good shampoos and good conditioners, that haven't got all the nasty stuff in them. So, that it will help with my condition, with the thickening of my hair and, just help me through this next period of my life.

While all the hormones are changing yet again. Yeah, the joys of being a woman.  That saves me money from not having it dyed, so that I can invest in those better shampoo products for, now.

Helen: So, what kind of shampoos are you using?

Hayley: Well, at the moment I'm using one that's collagen-based. However, I've been doing a little bit of research recently, and there's a Cornish company that does shampoo that is completely natural, and based on seaweed.

Helen: Uh huh. Yes. I have heard of that. 

Hayley: I think that will be my next purchase. Because I think the one that I'm using at the moment has got a few nasties in, so I need to go much more natural based. So that's potentially watch this space, we'll catch up again in six months and I'll let you know, Helen. 

Helen: Moving on to the ageing process generally,

Hayley: No! That wasn't the deal. 

Helen: Most of the people I've spoken to have kind of gone grey at a point where they're almost at peace with the ageing process. Not that they love it, but just that they know it's going to happen, and that they're looking at life ahead, rather than life behind. Does that resonate with you?

Hayley: I think I was determined to go grey before I got to an age where I should be grey. Does

Helen: Okay. Yeah. 

Hayley: I thought if I capture it now. That means for the next ten years, I’m not going to going to look any older, because I’ve had grey hair from such a young age. That in ten years-time, I’ll just look the same age. That was my theory.  

But no, I think it's an absolute, I was going to say pleasure. It's not a pleasure. It's a privilege to have. To have each year tick by and, you know, I am, without being morbid, I am grateful for whatever age I get to because I do think life is mapped out for you. So, whether that ends today, you know, imminently or in 20, 30 years-time, who knows?

So, I don't have a problem with ageing. I think it's just what happens in life. I, at this age have, huge amount of experience behind me, not just work, but family life. I'm much calmer, much more mature about so many things. And I think that is why it's important. Ageing is an absolute privilege, so I don't need to hide it, I don't want to hide it.

I'm just going to go with it and accept that's what happens.

Helen: Cool. I think it kind of really brought it home to me. I went trekking in my thirties up in Northern Pakistan, in Baltistan, and the average life expectancy up there was 48. And you just kind of go, Oh my God. So many parts of the world where people don't get to live, or a lot of people don't get to live, to the sorts of ages that we're then still pretending to be 25

Trying to follow, pressures in terms of how we should look, and not necessarily thinking about, how am I going to age healthily?

How am I, when I'm 80, still going to be walking and, enjoying myself and, doing the garden. Rather than, how would I look now, if I can try and look 25?

Hayley: Yeah. Absolutely. And to me, I would rather be healthy and live longer. Without a doubt I just want to be still so active. I don't want to hit 50 and go, oh, I'm feeling my age. What? What a whole load of rubbish. 

There's a lady who runs a business down in Cornwall, Cornwall again, must be my happy place. Nanny Pat, she runs, Bosinver Farms and Cottages. I just look at her so often and think, I wanna be like you when I'm your age, because she's phenomenal. She runs this exceptional business. She just keeps up to date with everything that's going on in the world. She's still trying to make an impact on the environment.

She has such high values and she's so incredibly active and on it, and, you know. I'm sure she's not at the hairdressers every two weeks worrying about her greys. The things that are important to her in her life, and I just look at her and go, yeah, you know, grab it, grab, grab life for however it looks for you.

Sorry, I went off on a one there didn’t I?

Helen: No, it's fascinating to hear. I guess the other question is, what are you doing to stay fit and healthy then?

Hayley: A bit like you, Helen, I love the fresh air. I love walking. Doesn't have to be miles and miles, but I absolutely have to get my daily dose of walking and fresh air. I am like a naughty toddler, if I sit at my desk all day. The kids come home and go, have you been at your desk all day? Yeah. Okay. We'll stay away. 

So yeah, I do. I absolutely need my daily dose of fresh air. Come rain or shine, I mean, we live near the coast, some of the walks we've done in the winter, we absolutely get blasted by the wind and the rain. But it's what I need mentally, physically, emotionally, definitely. 

I also, I run on the treadmill. I don't run outside so much. More of a confidence thing, I think, more than anything. I run on the treadmill. I do boxing, with my son, which I've just started about three, four months ago. And honestly, we love it. It's great. We get all our aggression out in half an hour, twice a week. Love it.

Try to be a little bit more, conscious in terms of our diet. I've cut down hugely on alcohol. Again, COVID thing. I think we're all guilty of probably making that a little bit of a habit. I've cut down hugely on that and yeah, feel in a much better place because of that. Not that I was ever a heavy drinker, but it can become regular, can't it, quite easily. So cut down on that massively. And just, being a lot more aware. 

I've also started, and this was one of my colleagues, who I've worked with for a number of years, she introduced me to it. I've started doing the fasting. I literally stop eating by sort of six o'clock on an evening, and then don't start again till 10 o'clock the next morning.

And the benefits of that have been huge, not just from a weight loss point of view. But obviously, as we mentioned before, the ageing process, hormones and bloating and all the rest of it can, can go on quite a bit. But the fasting has really, really helped from a, healthy side of things as well.

Helen: So, do you do that constantly or is it an intermittent thing? 

Hayley: Yeah. Intermittent. Definitely. So, I'm usually pretty good during the week. I think when we're all got our little routines and structures, it's easier, isn't it? But then I, give myself sort of the weekend. So, I might take either a Saturday or Sunday off, or a Friday or Saturday off, depending on what's going on.

And certainly, if we go on holiday, don't even think about it. I enjoy the foods on holiday, and don't worry about it until we come back. So, I just try and keep that balanced approach. Because if I did it seven days a week, it would be like a diet, and that's not me.

Helen: Okay. You don't look like someone who's had very yo-yo-y weight over the years, but you can tell me I'm wrong.

Hayley: I think, I don't go to extremes, but there's always that, I go up a stone and down a stone, and I kind of yo-yo, and so my clothes tell me. I don't go on the scales, ever, hate them. Never been on the scales since I've had my second child, since I've had Elliot, so, no, don't go on those. But I know from my clothes, when I need to, go one way or the other.

Helen: As you're getting older, are you finding your style is changing in terms of the way you dress and the extent to which you follow fashion? 

Hayley: Yes, I would say. In that now I am, well you can see, I know this is just audio, but you can see, I’m very casual during the day. I am a leggings person. Again, that means if I get restless at my desk I can just get up and go off for a walk, and come back and feel better. So yes, very much a casual dresser.

I do like to feel smart and comfortable, so that I'm confident if I go to business meetings or networking events, so my style will change for those. 

To answer your question, has it changed? I suppose it has in that I'm not a fast fashion person, so I could have something in my wardrobe that stays in there for years and I go back to it time and time again. So, I'm probably not a fast fashion person, whereas once upon a time, I probably was. So yes.

Helen: Do you think that's because you found the styles that suit you, and give you confidence, and you're happy just to stick with that?

Hayley: Yes, possibly so. I think sometimes we all still trial things, don't we? As well. Actually, I had this conversation with somebody about something slightly different, this morning. You look kind of on Pinterest and Instagram, and we were actually talking about our houses. And we were saying, you see something on Instagram or Pinterest and you go, I want my house or my lounge to look like that.

So, off your trot to Dunelm and pick up all the bits and pieces, that you think you need to make your room look like that. And then you put it in your house and go, well, hang on a minute. It looks nothing like the Instagram or the Pinterest page that I just screenshotted. Totally rubbish at transferring that.

What I'm trying to say there is you do try these things. And this is what I do when I see. You know, things online, think oh, that looks nice. And then you try it on and you go, just doesn't suit me at all. 

I do also now wear slightly different clothes as well, because, I had a left side mastectomy five years ago. So, the type of clothes that I want to wear, that I can wear, can differ a little bit. I'm usually much more in higher necklines now. Whereas once upon a time I would have been in strappy vests and v neck tops. I have to be just that little bit more cautious. 

I suppose my style has changed, yes, because of ageing and maturity and kind of going, you know what, this is me, I don't need to follow anybody else. But also, I suppose as my body shape has changed, I've needed to adapt. More cautiously as well.

Helen: Okay. Cool. All right. I'm going to ask you one last question then. If someone came to you and said, I'm thinking about going grey, what would you say to them?

Hayley: Do it.

Helen: As simple as that.

Hayley: Do not procrastinate. Do not overthink. Go through the pain barrier. Do it. And enjoy it.

Helen: That's great. Well, thanks so much for joining me.

Hayley: Thanks for having me, Helen.

Helen: And I'll see you around soon.

Hayley: Yes, absolutely.

Helen: Thanks so much for joining me for this week's show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. I'll be back again next week, but in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram at happier. grey. Have a great week.