Episode 09 // Human or Android? The Shadow of Pluto w/ Jessica Murray

Episode 09 // Human or Android? The Shadow of Pluto w/ Jessica Murray

Astrological Shifts and Societal Changes: Navigating Pluto's Movement into Aquarius and Lunar Eclipses

This episode of Rage of Aquarius features the insights from accomplished astrologer Jessica Murray regarding the influence that Pluto's transition from Capricorn to Aquarius will have on this election year and in the decades ahead. We explore how Pluto's transits are redefining societal structures, technological revolutions, and human consciousness: the deconstruction of power hierarchies and the potential for ideological shifts.

0:00 Rage Of Aquarius #9

00:23 Welcome to Rage of Aquarius: Special Guest Jessica Murray

00:56 Jessica Murray: A Deep Dive into Her Astrological Journey

04:23 Exploring the Astrological Landscape: Pluto's Movements and Global Events

08:29 The Intricacies of Astrological Transits and Their Impact

16:40 Understanding Pluto's Influence Through Capricorn and Aquarius

28:58 The Digital Age and Astrology: Navigating Pluto in Aquarius

43:29 Taylor Swift and the Plutonic Influence: A Case Study

51:31 The Shadow of 2024: Trump, Taylor Swift, and the Collective Psyche

53:22 Astrological Insights: Pluto's Influence and the Collective Fear

54:41 The Music Industry's Monotony and Cultural Deprivation

55:58 The 1% and the Pyramid of Power: A Societal Shift

01:03:43 The Pluto Return: America's Transformation and Global Impact

01:08:30 The Dawn of Aquarius: Ideologies, AI, and the Human Essence

01:27:31 Reclaiming Humanity: Ancestral Wisdom vs. Artificial Intelligence

01:35:47 Final Thoughts: The Uniqueness of Human Thought and Creativity

Transcript

0:04

Welcome back to another amazing episode of Rage of Aquarius, the outsider astrology podcast. Today we have a very special guest, an accomplished astrologer, published author, cultural commentator, Jessica Murray. Thank you so much for being here, Jessica. Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah, we love having you on with us. Wanted to have this happen for a long time. Fabulous. I'm going to do a little bit of an intro for our listeners. I'm sure most of them are familiar with Jessica because she's had such a long career astrologer and I would have to is hands down the best. geopolitical interpreter of or mirroring the astrological movements to what is happening down here on the planet. Wow, Frederick. That's quite an act. Bless your heart. You know, before the show today, I was trying to think, I was like, God, how, how did I meet Jessica? And it was like one of those. relationships that it's just seemed to always be there in my life, but I was like, well, no, there had to have been, you know, a time where we actually met each other. So if I recall it, I think it was obviously through email because I haven't met you in person yet. Isn't that funny? I know. But yeah, I, I, like I was just saying about your skill set as an astrologer and the way that you work, I see it as you as an artist with the astrological matrix. And so to be more specific, Jessica's a professional astrologer from San Francisco. She has written two books soul sick nation, which is to me the best book I've ever read that delineates the United States birth chart and really gives the reader like granular looks at all the different facets that compose, you know, the U. S. psyche, and then how that is mirrored in the birth chart. And then her second book, At the Crossroads, was a collection of her writing from her Mother Sky blog website, which is at mothersky. com, and we'll have a link to that up in our notes on the Podcast. And how would you describe at the crossroads, Jessica, was that the big grand square at the time. Right. In fact, I would typify that whole era is the cardinal cross years. Remember your innocent Aries. at that time and how it was making that seminal square to Pluto, which is really the biggest deal maybe in our lifetimes. Right. At least the baby boomers, certainly, because we're the ones who started. We came into our own under the Uranus Pluto conjunction, and that was the next big deal from that cycle. But there was so much so much turmoil and action on the streets and in politics and culture during those years that at the crossroads came out. And that's when I wanted to put it together and try to make some kind of astro sense out of it. Right. Well, and you did, it's a knockout book. That's another one I'd recommend for the folks listening. So we're going to open up the dialogue today with I, there's different things. You know, Rachel, Rachel, Rachel and I were discussing before you signed into zoom about looking at some of the obvious things related to the biggie Pluto moving into Aquarius. And then also trying to see, develop a better understanding of some of the mayhem having to do with NATO, Ukraine, also what's happening with Israel, Palestine, and then, you know, it's like, this is like the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. And then we look to the U. S. You know, having two kind of living mummies that are running, you know, for president here I guess representing the last burps of the Pluto Capricorn trans. Oh, and then I also had mentioned to Rachel, maybe we could talk some about just where astrology is configured right now. Right. Pluto converts into Aquarius, which is often a sign associated with astrologers. So those topics, like what did any one of those sort of like peak you, like right when I mentioned it? Well, you know, we're still straddling that threshold, aren't we, between Pluto and Aquarius? Capricorn and Pluto in Aquarius so that the dissonance of that buzz, the tension of that milestone, the way it's going back and forth and back and forth is, is really the topic that's permeating the airwaves. The fact that we aren't really yet in Pluto and Aquarius and the world's soul knows it. We're trying to make sense of the rubble that was the Pluto and Capricorn years. And I think that that's what we're supposed to do. If we want to be finger on the pulse about this, like you say, the, the, the old men running in this duopoly, this, This outdated system, Electoral College and all the nonsense that's 250 years old and shouldn't be, shouldn't be left unexamined here in 2024. All this is kind of indicative of the fact that we haven't really landed on the other side of that Pluton Capricorn line. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, just to let the listeners know in case they're not up on it, as Rachel had pointed out to me reminded me, Pluto moves back into 29 degrees of Capricorn you know, right, at the election day in 2024. And then it's actually the sun on inauguration day is conjunct Pluto in Aquarius. And to me, that really, She says it all. I mean, what, what do you make of that? You two? Oh, well, I want to hear from Jessica as a matter of fact, because when I looked at the astrology for this upcoming election season, I was kind of paralyzed with trepidation. And I don't normally like to allow fear to guide my interpretations. I don't think that's the correct use of astrology, but I have to say that the the transits that we are experiencing in election season are like a tangle of thorns. And so I would love to hear your insights, Jessica, on that You know, particular time this year, it, it begins, you know, September when Pluto retrogrades back into Capricorn. Then by election day, just FYI for everybody who is interested in the details our election day reveals a, an opposition between Mars in Cancer and Pluto at 29 degrees Capricorn. In some ways, there's like unfinished business from the youth. Pluto return. Right. And that is a, a planetary war. If I've ever seen one Mars in Cancer debilitated, which makes Mars a bit more dangerous in many ways. And then we have The Mars retrograde, just a month later, December 6th, stationing retrograde in Leo. And then we will Five. It looks to me like a lot of loose ends, a lot of unfinished business, a lot of unanswered questions. I don't see I don't see a satisfying conclusion or a satisfying victory for anyone. One. Well, maybe not in our lifetimes, but yeah, I think it's, you know, these are human responses to a situation. It almost is an honoring of the power of Pluto to realize that we quake a little bit when we see it opposed by Mars. But beyond that, beyond sort of clocking our initial fear of it, we can have, we can dip into our bag of tricks as astrologers and do something useful, I think, by copying the big picture view and look at it, take a few steps back. Intellectually look at it from what we know about the cycles and what's trying to happen rather than just merely staying in our human emotional responses to it, which is, of course, what most people are going to do. And I'm not faulting us for doing it either. It's part of the package of being human. But the wonderful thing about astrology is looking at, for example, the thing we were talking about earlier is what does it mean in the big picture that Pluto spent these years in Capricorn? What was it trying to break down? What's its job, essentially, on a collective level? And when it turns its attention to Aquarius, what's the job of this next 20 years going to be. And then we start sort of trying to take the pulse bigger blocks of time. And it, it becomes so fascinating, which I think is the essence of Aquarius. Is it a fascination with the human drama? It becomes so fascinating that we start to look at the whole mess that way. In a way, I think this answers another question you answered a minute ago, which is how can astrology be of use? in these fraught, panicked times. So, we could pick it apart anywhere and it would be interesting. The Mars Pluto opposition, wow. You know, drama, right? This is a, does an exact opposition three times. First one is November 3rd. So, it's telling, isn't it? Buford pointed this out, Frederick, about that last degree, that 29th degree. as being the place where it decided to make the first of three oppositions. Does it again on January 3rd, does it again in April of 25. So it's almost like, okay, let's look at that opposition in terms of three battles in a particular war. And already you feel a little bit of spaciousness around the issue. You keep looking at cycles instead of singular transits, which they never are. Transits are never isolated, are they? But we forget that when we look at like the transit picture for a given day, like a fraught day like this, right? Are you with me here? Oh, yeah. I want to just add, like, just listening to you describe this or unpack it, like, I just felt the humility move within me about, you know, when you're forced, Or, or decide which astrology affords those of us that work with it, it affords us that stepping back and seeing the big, the bigger big cycles that we won't even live, you know, to see. Yeah. And then, then it puts everything into this, you know, much more fascinating sort of matrix or perspective becomes genuinely interesting. Yes. And I'm reminded of the great work that like Dane Rudger did because he was such a big proponent, like you were saying Jessica of, you know, there isn't just one aspect it's part and parcel. You know, this whole cycle, you could say, you know, it started when they conjunct and then they move into opposition and then, you know, and then it's constantly moving and going and us as little as pipsqueak humans, you know, you're kind of screaming about, you know, one particular facet of it. So, yeah, that's my response to the point you're making there. There's also the issue of how, if you do look at the, at a given day's transits as just a little piece of a cycle, you can start to see cosmic echoes better, such as the way that the Mars Pluto opposition harkens back to the previous years. Conjunction. You know, in 2020, Mars was conjunct Pluto. It was kind of the birth of the fake Big Steel propaganda campaign and also the attempted actual Big Steel. You know, that was kind of given birth. then. It was also a cosmic echo of the Jupiter Saturn conjunction in 2020. Remember when, that was a huge big deal, when the big great mutation, it was called. And you start to see that, okay, We know what degree Pluto's at when it opposes Mars upcoming. It's going to show us, like you said earlier, the death throes of the U. S. Pluto return. So it's definitely the end of a phase of that dying. So there are all these different ways of looking at it that Go ahead, what were you going to say? No, finish, Jessica, what you were saying. No, I, well, that kind of wraps it up. I'm just thinking about, you can look at where it's been, where the cycle has been, and what kind of strings of the cosmic harp it's tweaking. These strings have been there, kind of in the collective unconscious, and the great divine finger is approaching it, making it sound again. Yes. That's what I mean by, a cosmic echo. So you go, Oh yeah, that Jupiter Saturn conjunction was at zero degrees Aquarius. And what did that start? You know, which was both the 20 year cycle and a 200 year cycle. So it's really impossible. It's so complex to, to talk about all of the ramifications, but you can pick out a few of the major cycles that a given transit is. Remembering, so to speak. Mm hmm. Yeah, remembering, calling back into Calling back to Yeah. I think, I think it would be great for the listeners to have you know, like, it's almost impossible to do, but like a, a short primer on, because now that we're exiting it for the most part, the Pluto transit through Capricorn. Definitely. Like how, how, you know, it's how did Einstein say it? Well, if you can't explain it to a seven year old, then you really shouldn't be trying to define something. Of course, that's great. But how, how well and you to Rachel, like how, you know, How do you two see in a nutshell version the the Pluto through Capricorn Transit? And again, I know you just can't take a single thing out of the hole and then, you know, try to make a definitive statement on it. But anyway, I think you get my question. Mm-Hmm. Go ahead, Rachel. Oh, oh my goodness, so in a nutshell, well, my very simple breakdown of Pluto's influence is that it opens up a portal into the collective unconscious mind. And it dredges up what is repressed there, whether that is psychic or emotional. It also, as a result, dredges up the past. And that condition that we all experience in our personal lives, where we unconsciously repeat patterns oftentimes patterns that are quite unwanted and yet we inherited them or we unconsciously become locked into them and we struggle to get out of those cycles and those patterns and the only way to do so is to you know, as Carl Jung said, not to be cliche, but to make the unconscious conscious. And so the whole Plutonian influence is this alchemical transmutative it's this alchemical transmutative opening or opportunity that forces the individual as well as the collective to face the unconscious, face what is hidden in the darkness, face what is repressed, and hopefully bring it out into the light of consciousness, bring it out into the light of awareness, and that is the only way to make any positive shifts or any real change. So that's what it's for, right? It's it's design is that it's not just that we're trying to put lipstick on a pig here and find a way to suffer less, but also look at it as but that was Pluto's function, right? And I think that it's good that we stress this with clients. And with listeners, Pluto doesn't kill anything off. It doesn't care. It's just, we use that language of course for dramatic emphasis, but the symbol of Pluto just refers to that point of transition between energy breaking down in one form and reconfiguring into another. It really isn't the planet of death so much as the planet of death slash rebirth. And I don't think it's an accident that we don't have a word in English for that because we don't understand it. So we put a lot of emphasis on the death part because death is sexier. Yeah. It titillates us because we're spooked by it. But essentially, it's the most organic process you can imagine. It's breakdown and renewal. Yeah, yeah. And like Rachel says, it's, what is it breaking down? In terms of the collective experience, which is mostly, I think what we're talking about today, it's the stuff in society that has been a dirty secret and like income disparity. Which was, you know, not part of the public, popular conversation, even though it was happening until Pluto and Capricorn in the House of Money in the USA, right? The second house, Sibley Church, brought it out of the woodwork. Like Rachel said, it dragged it from the underground and made it visible. And it's not like Pluto made it happen. It's just that it exposed it. Exactly. I always like to use the metaphor of an x ray machine to describe Pluto's influence. Yeah, exactly. And oh my goodness, I mean, it, like, looking through any scientific instrument that reveals things beyond our normal perception can be fascinating. It can be fascinating, very useful, we can diagnose, but it can also be truly horrifying. Right. I think it's, it's a good word for Pluto, you know, horror. It's different than terror, because terror is just extreme fright, but horror involves an element of repulsion. And the things that Pluto exposes tend to be extremely unsavory, vomit and feces and rot and decay that we're revolted by at the same time we're afraid of. But then if you were a scientist, and this is the sign Aquarius. You know, this is one way to look at Plutus going into Aquarius. It would give us the freedom from merely being paralyzed by our emotional reactivity to these disgusting things, and to view it the way we would hope real scientists do. Like somebody who studies things that, you know, laymen would consider revolting material in the human body. This is what I think our challenge is here with this transit. Yes. And looking back on the influence of this plutonium introspective revealing and exposing energy in the sign of Capricorn. Just for listeners who are not familiar with when that started, it was in January of 2008 that Pluto moved into the sign of Capricorn. So you can see that it's a very slow moving planet and we have been chewing on this metabolizing this Since that time since 2000. So what has been revealed since then? Right. A lot. I just want to add quickly like that to the point that both of you have made about the, the it's sort of like the cats out of the bag is a kind of mystic way, especially looking at, at the, the signed Capricorn and what that revealed when Pluto's moved in there, the whole financial global, you know, the destruction of the whole global financial show. realm that happened almost to the day that Pluto was in there. And I've heard a lot of activists mention this as sort of the tipping point, was once the great hope of humankind, Barack Obama, You know, stepped in and then, you know, incrementally bailed out all of the hedge fund managers. No, no one was imprisoned. Nobody has suffered consequences except for people like me that almost lost my home to foreclosure. And there are, were many millions that did that really Sort of cat out of the bag again, jolted people, people were like, wow, this is really rotten to the core. It took something like that for a materialistic society like ours to be hit in the pocketbook, you know? Exactly. But the Pluto in the second house, it really rectified that placement, didn't it? Totally. Yeah, totally. I've had Pluto in my second house because I am a Sagittarius rising, I guess, like the country I live in. Now what's interesting, you know, just from my own personal experience, I mean, I was born with Pluto in the 12th house, Scorpio. And so, I've always been just naturally very very Very much oriented towards questioning authority, looking underneath rocks, having very little regard for the surface level of the political narrative, if you will. I have long felt, my entire life, as a matter of fact, I have felt misrepresented. and alienated from all, you know, heads of state and all, you know, all of the policies that are supposed to represent supposedly, you know, the will of the people. And so the era of Pluto and Capricorn for me was, yes, there was a lot that was exposed and there was a lot that was revealed, but I felt in my own experience that it was kind of like being joined, vindicated. I felt like, oh, there's people finally joining me in this lonely dark. Right. And, you know, I, I've always been a little, well, I've known a lot, a lot before people that I would call my peers ever had any inclination to distrust something as simple as putting themselves on social media. You know, I, I did not do that when social media first arrived. I did not get on social media because I saw clearly that this has the potential to invade our privacy, become a trap that any corrupt government can use against us as common people. It's a form of surveillance. It's a way for people to be tracked. It's a way for people to be also influenced through not just censorship in the way that we once understood it, which when I was growing up. You know, the most evocative anti censorship lesson in elementary school was the Nazis burning books. And that was something that, as an American, you are just, like, heartbroken at the thought that these people were so zealous and so narrow minded and so ideologically insane that they were burning books. And it's so anti American, but I remember when the Kindle came out, the first thought that I had was, oh, well, they won't have to burn books now. They just don't put them on Kindle. Like, it's just that simple. Yeah, and you can make live updates to texts that are on Kindle. And so, if something is published in one year, And it becomes something that is threatening to a specific ideology or specific institution of power. They can just go in and they can delete that section or they can change that section. And so the sort of mutability of digital libraries, I saw as very dangerous. And by the way, I do use Kindle. I'm not saying that I don't use these things, but I've always been very cautious and very aware. Well, these are the kind of issues that we're, that Pluto and Aquarius is going to shove in our face. We don't have we haven't figured out any of this. And we've got 20 years of Pluto and Aqua to even begin to ask the questions about what's going to happen in this age of where intellectual property is the new oil. IP is the new oil. Yeah, I think a salvo was launched the other day when the stock reports came out on meta, you know, Mark Zuckerberg's company. He had slashed, I don't know, a huge amount of the workforce in cutting back when it looks like the stocks were going down a year and a half ago. And then it was announced he'd made Like, I don't know, within that quarter, 151 billion dollars it was literally touted as the most outrageously successful stock in the history of the market. It was then pointed out that the other side of the equation was brought up by, I forget this activist writer's name, his name, he's a professor. He's always on with Kara Swisher on their podcast. I'm sorry, I can't remember his name, but he was just pointing out the cost of destroying, you know, children's minds has been at the forefront of arguments about social media, you know, their loss of self esteem. narrative analysis, suicidal ideation, all of that goaded by Zuckerberg and his fervor to just dominate at all costs. To dominate at all costs. And of course, he's rewarded, you know, massively. But then I just thought, what a one two punch, you know, here's First of all, the bad news came out about the kids, but then it shifted the narrative to like, Whoa, look at these box office numbers. Like, you know, we're still back in our capitalistic capitalism, man. hypnotized by these crazy ass numbers. And I really don't know anybody in my circle that's like benefiting from the stock market, other than people that have all the money already and just keep buying, you know, their stocks back, which is Facebook immediately did that like two days ago, it's 5 billion of its stock back. I think There was something that, when I revisited an interview I did with you, Jessica, during the big Uranus Pluto square, and there was a quote that you had pointed out to me by Nathan Heller in I think it was The New Yorker, talking about this bizarre tech corporate crazy growth that was happening. And the quote he, that you pointed out to me was the ambiguity. He was saying the ambiguity is what's new. in new corporatism. A company that wants to be the champion of arty, quirky individuation, and also wants to grow toward enormous profits. That's a widely held social worldview that we know of. Right. That to me harkens into, or leads into like Pluto and Aquarius. We're, yeah, we're gonna have to face. The issue of what capitalism is combined with AI, it's a combination. That's the deadly fusion. It's about, we haven't faced this yet, because AI is so new, and so changing the world at such a breakneck speed that the human mind hasn't caught up with it. But I think these transits, thinking of the great mutation. previewing the Pluto and Aquarius years, which itself is previewing the age of Aquarius, whose threshold we're sort of hovering over, the whole 2000 year block of time. It's all about, you know, the AI supercharged corporations destroying everything else. I don't, in pursuit, like you say, of shareholder value. And if that's not a very strange and counterintuitive approach to life on the planet. I don't know what is, you know, that terrifying analogy that technophobes came up with of the paperclip machine that takes over the world and it's single minded pursuit of making paperclips because it's pre programmed to make paperclips and can't be turned off. It sounds like there's a new apprentice or something. Yeah, it does. No, I've never heard sounds like what? The sorcerer's apprentice. Exactly. So the writer Ted Chiang says capitalism is that machine that'll do whatever it takes to prevent us from turning it off. And so I don't think we can really look at any of these. dangers, these dystopian visions of the Aquarian period ahead without considering that we've got kind of a life annihilating economic system that's doesn't make any sense anymore. Of course, I, I, on that note, I want to point something out that hit me the other day. I was reading Something by Cory Doctorow, who's a kind of tech, you know, he's an activist that pushes back. I guess he's more kind of a Marxist, which of course people listening to us talk right now could be, well, they're talking about socialism and Marxism, you know, but anyway, you know, he was talking about the AI hysteria as he calls it. And I, I just want to read this thing. thing he said, because it really made me look at the more nefarious side of this transit related to AI. Anyway, he said, AI isn't going to do your job, but its narrative may convince your boss to fire you and replace you with a bot that can't do your job. Like what happened when Air Canada hired a chat bot to answer customer inquiries and it started making shit up about discounts that the company later claimed it didn't have to honor. The story's been all over the news, he said, for the past couple of days, but so far as I've seen, no one has pointed out the seemingly obvious inference that this chatbot probably ripped off lots of people. Yeah. Victim here was extraordinarily persistent, chasing a fucking refund for 10 weeks, and then going to the regulators. This guy is a Six Sigma self advocate, which implies a whole bell curve's worth of comparatively normal people who just ate the shit sandwich air can it. At them, right? So there, you know this, I was thinking, wow, yeah, that's really what it's going to be about just worse customer relations from the corporations. Remember that old telephone model where the phone company, we don't have to give a fuck like, you know, more of that than ever. That's for like getting into AI realm, like, oh my god. That's what happens with Pluto. It pushes whatever sign it's in to an extreme in order to squeeze these dark impulses of, in this case a collective, into the open so that rot can be exposed to the air and then natural law can take its place. The trouble is, when we talk about these horrors, which is really what they are, and on a societal level that we're going to have to cope with, is that in the short term, it's a very unpleasant phase of the Pluto cycle. The phase where the ugliness is being pushed to the extreme. Exposed. Yeah. It creates a lot of suffering. So I think that that again, it goes back to the original point of that's in there, but it's not really the point. It's not really the thing to focus on. Although how could not when we have incarnated into living our lives in this phase of the breakdown cycle. It's not to deny that. I think that we have to find our role. In this phase, would you say the, you know, taking like this example that he gave and say, I don't know the compounded outrage that people have over something like this dealing with a corporation. I mean, do you see the upside of the Pluto Aquarius transit I mean not to get it into such a black and white. Polarity, but I will, well, it's a good question, but do you see, I mean, do you see the upside as like people that Aquarian spirit of, well, what the individual can't do by themselves, we can accomplish as a unified group. You see that as, you know, being the, the natural extension of like this kind of rage and being ripped off and, you know, you know, that people, or are they like in love with the fucking machines? Well, there's always going to be most people. We're not really talking about everybody being on the bandwagon of looking at the healthy cosmic purpose. Thank you for saying that because if you look at history from the beginning of time, it's only been like a small, very small, yes, but that's all it ever takes. I mean, Again, very big picture, it doesn't dismiss the suffering of most people on the planet. It just, we're being realistic when we say, like you did, about the bell curve, that there's always just been a few people at the outer edges who could, for example, conceive of the real meaning, the big picture meaning of Pluto, and who can even strip it from the bad good evaluations that we can't help as human beings to, to lay upon it. We're in the middle of it. Maybe Oppenheimer was an example when he could look at that A bomb and, and recognize it as archetypal death. And the beauty of that movie, I guess, of his whole approach, of his intelligence, was that he could bring to bear this, dare I say, spiritual understanding upon even a worldly horror. Now, then, if you look at that as kind of a big example, epic history book style. example of this phenomenon. But there are little everyday examples, like being able to see in the short term that we relatively cosseted middle class Americans have to suffer these economic inconveniences. Right. I mean, I'm just exaggerating for dramatic effect that we can, we can, I guess, if we can maintain the theoretical discipline to hold these difficulties in the same big picture way. that we won't freak out, we'll at least try to have a vantage point from which we can discern our own role in this dreadful, in these dreadful circumstances, by looking at our chart. I mean, that's my belief as an astrologer, that our own role in these dreadful circumstances. Chaotic times is spelled out in cosmic terms in coded terms in our birth chart. And then of course we apply the transits to it and we go, Oh, I see. So I have the potential to get this insight. about these dreadful times this summer, and so on. Right. I would just say for the listener having corresponded with Jessica for years and read her Mothersky. com site, the blog she does, a newsletter, that she is really a proponent of the notion that we're each born when we're born, because we're, you could say, you know, predisposed to fit into the slot of time that would that be a way to put that? Yeah, that's right. We have individual, an individual personality style identity. And we also have an identity as members of a certain generation. But everybody has a different set of strong suits within that, and not everybody is karmically designed to write like Cory Doctorow or, you know, so on. Exactly. And yet, there's folks like him out there. There always will be. And that's, I think, kind of the upside of like, right, ways to maneuver this. I just want to bring up an interesting point to what I think both of you touched on here about say Pluto in the natal chart. That might be interesting to people, because I came across this by reluctantly doing an article on the pop singer Taylor Swift. Reluctantly, but very interestingly. I got fascinated by this bizarre, you know, like, bonding of her and Trump in the national dialogue over the last, like, month or so. It was kind of fucking just nuts. But. I so it was very interesting when I looked at her natal chart, I didn't have a time so I don't have an ascendant, but from the moment her career took off, Pluto had can exactly conjuncted by transit her son in Sagittarius. And then progressed a lot, you know, moved along and touched off her stellium. I think there's four planets in Capricorn. And with each pass, She, you know, like grew and grew and grew and grew into just, you know, this mega like presence within the zeitgeist. Yeah. And then what I thought was so interesting as soon as Pluto went into Aquarius and landed on her Venus. Yeah. All this pornographic material. Right. Hit the internet that bots had created like mid journey in these image making gizmos. And it was the only time. In the history of Twitter since Musk took over that he actually exercised some kind of like censorship because he's the big free speech, you know, right, right. Nazis in that can all be on here everyone. Having a party, but Taylor Swift had some nasty, and then boom, you got, you know, her legal team got in there and did it. But anyway, what do you make of the, the You know, because I was saying in the post, I wrote like, shit, if I had a client coming to me, and I was like, wow, okay, so the next 15 years, you've got Pluto on your sun, all of your Capricorn planets, all, you know, opposing your moon in Cancer, which is conjunct Jupiter, you know, I would be like, wow, okay, this, I've got to do my homework on working with this client. I don't think I'd tell them they were going to be the next Taylor Swift, if they were an artist. I'm curious to hear both of yours take on that. Rudger would talk about certain individuals being singled out to be personifications of outer planet transit, as if the divine mind had tapped them on the shoulder. And said, you express this plutonian mandate for your generation. Mm-Hmm. or you become the voice of, of Uranus, the Promethean voice and then your own ego structure. You know, your son and the inner planets become just fodder. They become subsumed by, by this collective urgency and that not everybody, this is his view is. is ordained to do that, obviously. But it's very suggestive. If you have a client like you just described, Frederick, who has these very pointed Pluto activity, it's clearly a potential for that. What do you think, Rachel? Well, I completely agree. I mean, you kind of took the words out of my mouth in terms of some people being, you know, archetypal representatives, you know, and someone like Taylor Swift. I actually, I'm, I, I guess I should be embarrassed that I don't know very much about her. I don't know a lot of details. I'm learning about Taylor Swift now but it sounds like, you know, Frederick, you know, that you really have followed. Well, he's embarrassed to be up on the details. You're embarrassed to be not up on the details. As a music lover, I'm not a fan. I mean, she's still Joni Mitchell. I mean, it's, you know. But, she does, she obviously represents something. Really essential and you know, she is a fellow Pluto and Scorpio like myself, you know, like he's a little bit younger than me and her Mars is in Scorpio just to put those two together. Yeah, right. And I think she's a, she's a Scorpio ascendant. So it makes sense that she would be able to represent Pluto, the trans planet. Yeah. for a generation or even across generations, but for this time. And you know, as far as I know, Taylor Swift is the most famous person in the world right now or something. Her and Trump. Yeah. And that is, I think that's partly true. I think there's real genuine devotion. I've seen it. I know how much people love her. On the same note, there's always the question of the ability to manipulate data and streaming and make it appear as though there is more more attention than there is. And so, you know, with, with Taylor Swift, I think she represents like genuinely as an artist, she taps into a pulse. She helps people, she gives people catharsis in some way. I know that people love her costume changes and they exalt how much she has shapeshifted throughout her career, which, you know, anyone that has a love for popular music with any historical sense knows that there's nothing new about that. That's David Bowie, that's Madonna, but Taylor Swift is doing that now for this generation, and I feel like Yeah. Yeah, and then the dark side is that, you know, this, this young girl has been consumed by the machine. She is not, we don't know her as a person. We don't actually care. She's an object, which I think, you know, Pluto on top of her Venus really describes that. Mm hmm. Totally fine to exploit this young woman and, and to basically to say we love you and we wish to humiliate you all at the same time. Exactly. And we wish to link you with Donald Trump. We want to adore you and destroy you like John Lennon. So this is a classic psychology of the collective. Go ahead. Well, yes, yeah, build them up, tear them down. In the Plutonic sense, she has had an interesting trajectory and we'll move on from her because I think this could get boring, but just in all this deep diving I was doing it was so interesting to look at once Pluto hit Uranus. Then she was melded to Crazy Town with Kanye West, who, if you remember, usurped her, you know, some award she had won, got up there. And that was melded in the collective. These two were then this sort of molecule swirling around one another that, you know, got crazy. And then You know, this whole thing now that what's really alarming about it in a novel way is it, it is possible that if Taylor Swift like rallied her, you know, swifties that yeah, it could actually impact. You know, the election in 2024. So I'll just leave it at that. But it's interesting. There she is with probably the biggest shadow figure in the US, which would be Trump. And now, you know, melded together in this craziness like thing. Anyway, it's a very It's a very evocative demonstration of this principle that Jungian astrologers like Liz Green have laid out so eloquently that a person can become their sun, S U N, can be subsumed by the outer planet, like Hitler was when he was just a dinky little wimp. And then he would walk up on stage and he became Neptune, Pluto. So he was what the ancients would have thought. What's the word that you get an exorcism for? He became possessed by these outer planet energies, and he lost the individuation faculty that would ideally balance us all out. So, this is a statement about the power of the, I would say the three outer planets, to indicate the collective, the mass mind, where it's at. And Taylor Swift, that whole phenomenon you're describing with the similarities to Trump and the development and the raising her up and in this weird fanatical adoration and then tearing her down, which is so classic with the whole phenomenon of fandom. It's like a beautiful. Demonstration of how that works. And we'd learn more about the insanity of the collective by watching what happens to these figureheads. I think that's what they're for. Absolutely. I think that it's good to just kind of lay out that there is, there is a narrative That's unfolding through these cycles and during the time of Pluto and Capricorn, which we are not fully out of yet. We have all collectively been grappling with our darkest fears about institutions of power, hierarchical structures, and of course this includes entertainment because The influence that these, you know, great artistic machines, these like, you know, you could say that the Renaissance was a beautiful melding of the market, money and art. There's nothing wrong in my opinion with that. money and art coming together. But I feel like if it wasn't obvious before, during Pluto and Capricorn, almost all of us have felt very cynical and rather betrayed about the arts, the, the movie industry, the music industry. Outside of politics, you know, and of course they serve the political machine always absolutely 100 percent. There's nothing new about that, but the real knowledge of that and the real like the dry bread and water that we've been served for so long shows me that this kind of desperate love of Taylor Swift comes partly from deprivation. Yeah. And what she represents to me is I'm sure that she's It's lovely, and I don't mean any offense, because if you love Taylor Swift, I'm not trying to insult you, but there's no variety in the music industry right now. She's really the only drink of water in the desert, and there's something really lacking in the cultural fabric as a result of just the revelation that this institution of power music, movies. They have revealed their hollow core. They're being run by necessity. Necessity has become an abstraction. Everything's run on the outlook and the statistics and everything's there's they're not even betting anymore. They don't take risks anymore. They don't actually want to play the game of life and creativity. They want to make predictable profits. And it's interesting that this evolution from Pluto and Capricorn, which is based upon the hierarchical structure. I said that, you know, the, the idea of the 1 percent is a Pluto and Capricorn era. We never said that before. We never said the 1%. No. And I think the one person knew it, but they didn't voice it. It didn't become part of the public discussion. Yeah, no, there was a very different sense of that in just in common, in common conversation, common awareness. And, you know, since 2008, average people have conceived of this, that there is a pyramid and they are at the bottom. And the, like, the hopelessness and trying to scramble, because, you know, you could say a ladder is something that might be frustrating to climb, but hey, you know, it's just one hand up, one foot up at a time. A pyramid is something so Capricornian, it's crushing them. Very interesting. Yeah, and it's made of stone, very permanent. And we are not really, we're not invited to climb. There's no invitation there. It's already set. It's a caste. It's a, it's a class caste system. And so it, it makes sense to me that, like, one of the most evocative symbols of this, of that era was the eye at the top of the pyramid. Which is, of course, on the U. S. dollar, so hey. But the, the deep dive into its meaning has become very important. That symbol is almost like the Plutonian portal into understanding what the hell has been going on underneath the surface, or what's been going on while I've been in middle class bliss. And you know, for me, I, I have I didn't, like, almost lose my home. I never have had the chance to have a home. Like, millennials experience The, oh, the door is shut. Sorry. Like, there's no opportunity to rise. There's no opportunity to. Yeah, but you grew up with the image that there was still that. That's the interesting thing, that juxtaposition. Oh my god. Yeah, it was, it was it was extremely harsh. It was very painful because I was, you As well as many of my peers. This is not just my story. We, we did everything right. We got our little jobs. We went to school. We got our degrees. And it was just, there's no, there's no decent employment for you. Period. So different than the underclass in other countries who never had that fantasy. Right who were never propagandized with that. Well, that's right. And that was the big to me, which,'cause I didn't give my little nutshell version of Pluto and Capricorn, but to me it was the death. of the American dream that all that I can buy a house, you know, just what Jessica was saying, weren't, you know, raised with that. I mean, that, that really became the defining of, you know, Pluto and Aquarius Capricorn. But listen, we should, What I, I wanna just check in with you two. Where, where do we want to shift or move? Or t-bone something or, oh, I don't know how much time we have left. We're six or seven hours. I thought we'd go. I'm kidding. Gotta take in to see where you two are. Like what do you feel? Is there other stuff itching to, I, I would like to you know, just kind of describe. The transition of consciousness, the collective consciousness and the unconscious from that pyramid, that hard stone, that hierarchical structure that's been a 1%. Yeah, the 1%. How does that morph into, right, realm of Aquarius? And how is this? of benefit? And also, what are the great dangers? And I think we've touched on some of the dangers, but it's good to just really dig into what does this transitional time represent? What symbols or significant events, even, that have already occurred really S represent the shapeshift or the transformation into Aquarius. Yeah, I think I would love to hear Jessica's compilation of that.'cause I, I just wanted to interject that she had done this killer a webinar on Tony Howard's Astrology University. Mm-Hmm. Pluto Aquarius. And what the title of that was again, Jessica? The Crisis of Being Human. Exactly. So, I, I just, I remember listening to that, and I recommend all the listeners here to go and do what you need to do to stream that over. We'll put that link up as well. You can get it on my site too, directly. Okay. Okay, great. But all that research and deep diving you did, Jessica, what, what, like, what, what's the roux? Like, what, what did you, you know what I'm asking? I think I always like to go back to demystify it by breaking down a, a huge, overwhelmingly complex transit with these myriad examples that get us so attached, at least they do for me, to break it down mechanistically. That is, this is air, Pluto's moving from earth to air. So we know it's going to be about ideas. We know that the Capricorn, like we've all said in one way or another, it was 15 years of pushing monetization to a crazy fixed extreme to the point where it was so insane. that nobody could deny it anymore. And this is a big takeaway of what we've all three been saying is that Pluto makes something the rot in something so obvious that you can't deny it anymore. So there's nowhere to go up. You'd like the atom bomb, which Pluto governs, which reduced everything to atoms. They have to be rebuilt from scratch. So if we want a positive note, let's back up and look at that. So, Pluto revealed all these horrible truths about the institutions of power. Like you were saying, Rachel, they, they weren't new, but it exposed them to the light. And I love it when these, when denial is ruptured through, but you know, so the scandalous or immoral or underground activity in the realm of Capricorn material. is what we're looking at specifically. And that means the bones of a system. The Capricorn is the skeletal structure of a society, and they are those things which ironically are supposed to appear most permanent, the most cohesive, like governments and national borders. And it left all of these structures in chaos by discrediting them. them. Societies all over the world lost their bones like that, which again, in case it doesn't go without saying, it left standing, Pluto left standing the ones that were still working. It only takes away what's already not viable. But in the USA, it was especially obvious because here we are with the Pluto return. So after 250 years, Pluto and Capricorn in the House of Money. Plutocracy. Used to be that I would talk about plutocracy decades ago in my writings about the USA, and it was taboo. You couldn't use that word. You weren't supposed to admit. And now you hear it all over the place. So it's as if the transit flushed out of hiding the corruptions of our economic system and And the anachronistic structures, like, you know, the integrity of the Supreme Court, nobody believes in that anymore, the dignity of the Oval Office, I have a great memory for you. Do you remember when Trump was in England meeting with the Queen and he walked ahead of her, which was a huge breach of protocol? He like pushed his way to the front, which wasn't unusual for him, but it horrified the English. It was like a, a little microcosmic. example of Pluto and Capricorn. I will spit on your old dignity of your old conventions. And we could say, Oh, that's horrible. And we can, you know, despise the whole thing. But it was so classic as a representation for what the whole 15 years was trying to do. Anyway, where are we now? I think I don't think that anyone should have to respect the Queen. So personally, that's exactly. Well, it shows how relative it was. He's gone the way it plu up. Should we respect the electoral system? It's the same thing. It's just that these were used as glue. That was their meaning. Whatever the collective had decided was gonna be cohesive. So traditions that we, you and I and Frederick would think was absurd. Probably always thought we were absurd. I mean, how do we see, but they don't work anymore. How do we see, then, you know, this, this you know, crippled, broken down, the old reliable ways, kind of broken apart then, you know, because we're talking cycles here, so now, okay, Pluto moves into Aquarius, here's what, like, the ghost of Aquarius, here's what, like, the ghost of Christmas past is being drugged, you know, behind it is this rubble of, you know, the old stuff. And of course, we're getting, you know, a couple more passes Pluto back at 29 Capricorn. What like using our imagination, what, what would be then in this shift into air? Yeah, with this, you know, rubble being drug in or or maybe it won't be I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, this is what blows my mind when I watch, like, you know, I was watching something with Biden, the other day. I mean, not to pick on him or whatever. I'm not a fan of either gentleman, but like, I just was like, my God, this is like, you know, this explains the the fervor for all of these, like, you know, Day of the Dead, you know, zombie films. That are just the collective just gobbles to shut up. Well, they, they know that we all know in our bones, because we're animals instinctively that something is dying. Something very big is dying. Yes. People freak out when, when an era dies, it's natural. Well, and then here's our figureheads. You know, I, I I don't know. So I, there's just no denying the perfection of the cosmic thespians that set all of this up on the stage of reality. Like, and, and so I'm trying to like, think, well, Okay, Pluto's finally going to get there in Aquarius. We're out, like Jessica said, the air element, that's been taken apart. Now, like Well, the Earth has been taken apart, right? Well, that's what I mean, the, right, the Earth element. So then, into the air, and then Do you see that as, like, all of these conflicting ideologies and theories, you know, the whole mental? What I see is that, first of all, let me throw out that how to respond to all this decay. is what divides the sheep from the goats, in my view. You have to, you have the reactionaries, people reacting against change, who want to go back to the way it was, or the way they imagine it was, because it never was. And then you have the forward looking folks who are responding rather than reacting, meaning paying attention to what's being revealed about the essential ingredients and the structures that are getting demolished. And I don't mean necessarily progressives in the political sense of the word, but in the USA. It would be what is it this admitting this acknowledging look like admitting that certain structures of the government like the Second Amendment right to bear arms and the electoral college which I keep coming back to these, these things, just because they're so obvious that they were their origins were. centuries ago, and they need to be updated. And those who are on the wave of the future, they're the waves that are, have their finger in the wind, to be paying attention to what's happening, what the cycles are telling us it's time for, will be, have their ears perked for ways, creative ways, to update these structures. Because like we know with the atom bomb, atoms are going to come together again in some form, it's natural law, we don't have to worry about that happening, it's just are they going to come together in more imaginative ways, or, you know, the reactionaries are never going to be the ones for the source for those visions. They're going against natural law. They want to go backwards. I see some of the examples of things that need to be updated that are so baked into popular culture that we have always held them as assumptions, like our notions of class, which are left over from the Industrial Revolution, if you think about it. The origins of the terms working class, this is 19th century. This is Marx. And, you know, middle class that does, what does it mean in the, in the information age and the symbols of power, this is Pluto. Going into Aquarius, it's going to demand a new vocabulary for what even power means. Like we were saying, intellectual property is replacing the old form of valuing a resource, which was what? Gold? Spice? Money? Salt? Yes. Data is now the new oil. Data is the new gold. So these things, I believe, will happen naturally. I mean, if you believe that as above, So below, you see, this is happening without us having to figure it out, but that when we see creative thinkers, healthy, positive, balanced minds coming up with responses, not reactions, to these new ideas. collective urgencies, then we hitch our bag into that star. Like, you know, Frederick and Rachel and I all have, I'm sure, our favorite writers and thinkers who are genuinely integrated people whose visions really seem life affirming, who are addressing issues like AI and quantum computing. And well, the problem is they're, they're, they're couched as being, you know, communists or. But that's always the way it is. I guess that is true. Because, like, if you read, like, say, I'm very agnostic politically. I, I, both sides annoy me tremendously, just as a disclaimer. But I do tend to go For writers like Chris Hedges or you know, Glenn Greenwald, Aaron Monte. Mm-Hmm. PE people, you know, that, that are all now considered like puppets of Putin. Mm. And I, I'm just like, well, for a while. But, you know, the truth will out. This is just a very temporary I'm glad to hear you say that. I do hope that's true. Never underestimate the momentum of the powers of reaction. This is not surprising in all areas of human history. There's an enormous culture lag. between what time it is now and the freak out reactions that accrue to the loss and the panic of the time it used to be. So I don't think that we can use the way that the mob is finger pointing at these thinkers as any kind of measure of whether we should listen to them. Well, the problem is where the internet is basically everybody's mode. Yes. You know, because like, just yesterday, like Matt Taibbi showed how the State Department is, you know, contacting advertisers that would put money on different websites that disseminate information, and they have a blacklist. And of course, it's all, you know, Chris Hedges, Aaron Mott. Definitely. Yeah, and so those people get strangled out for whatever. Right. It's happening. Look at Navalny in Russia. I mean, it's an extreme example of the same thing. And right on the heels of the Tucker Carlson interview, I thought, wow, Putin's really making a fucking statement. Mm hmm. You ever ask yourself in the midst of all this, these justifyingly horrifying scenarios, do you ever ask yourself, what will the history books remember? Or beyond that, who will, you know, if there were some alien race centuries in the future, who will they think of as heroic? Right. What's the new Handmaid's Tale book going to be? That you know how that story was written where that's archaeologists find this woman's notebook. Huh. Huh. Yeah. Like, yeah, I don't know, Jessica. Well, I'm asking it as a rhetorical question to show that if we grade the horribleness of what's happening now in bigger picture terms, we will probably want to be on the right side of history rather than get completely tangled. Mm hmm. With the reactions that are happening in our current little cultural moment. I'm not saying don't read the news, not at all. I get very impatient with spiritual seekers who shut that out, but not have it be 90 percent of our focus. Mm hmm. What would you say the other, a good way to divvy up the focus would be? You know, as astrologers, we We look at cycles. Let me go back to the numbers. I mean, that's all astrology is really, right? Geometry. And the way we get our meaning of how things are unfolding is by looking at, for example, the Uranus Pluto conjunction that started. It's going to turn into, and then it was a square. And all the shit started to hit the fan, you know, with social media, you know, Snowden actually released his files that we were talking, Rachel, about the, yeah, the, the eye at the top of the pyramid. He was talking more about government being the big brother. Now we're talking about the government and the corporations which have merged, right? Saturn and Pluto conjoined and they, they're seamless. Now they're all the same thing. But anyway, we look at that as happening under when Uranus and Pluto squared each other. That was the next phase. Now they're going to start to trine. It'll be exact, you know, when they're in Aquarius and Gemini. And if we see this is the next step in the cycle that began with that infamous Virgo conjunction in the 60s. We can see it's about power, which is Pluto, technology, which is Virgo, and inventiveness, which is Uranus. And I'm just encouraging us to remember that astrology looks at themes, so we can think of that 60s theme and whatever they were, they're being developed. They're being developed by the incidents of the, of the square 2012 to 2015 and now we've got this aquarium emphasis, which is science. So they've mutated they've morphed. That same crazy conjunction is now getting into this level of science, which is new inventions and new theories. You were talking about this, Frederick, our old theories being disproven, which, by the way, don't you love the way the Big Bang is now being questioned because of the James Webb experiment? Yeah. Yeah. Telescope. Right. These are huge destabilizing findings that the old ideas about space time do not fit. Yeah. And the AI, nobody has to be an astrologer to see that, you know, the new Uranus Pluto development is going to be having to ask questions about that because now it's too new to have any spiritual or moral even. intelligence applied to it. It's just all too new. It's just all, Oh, these little boys who have a new toy, excitement about that. And they haven't matured to the point of. accruing an understanding of the implications of it. So that's going to be the work ahead for us all. I feel like this is a very liberating time, although there's many things to be very cautious about, and certainly even there's fear. And I suffer from that too. However, the way that I see, at least in my experience, and I have taken note that it seems to be in the collective as well, that divide between the one percent and everyone else that happened during Pluto and Capricorn is not just the experience of being crushed under the heel of someone's boot. It is in fact a separation between the common people and the at least There is no more loyalty to these people and their ideologies, and their vision of the future is just a story, their exaltation of AI is just a religious fervor, and that's not to say that we should underestimate the power of AI, but otherwise I say, yes, you should, because the, the ideology they're peddling is that, that AI is smarter than humans, which is an idiotic statement, because what does smarter mean? Totally, exactly, exactly. And this is their god, and it's not my god, and it's fine if you want to have that, but we don't have to share Their religion, nor do we dare not toast if we do. Yeah, we don't have to support their wars. And this is something that I feel like started in the 60s for sure, but there was still mainstream. It was still a fringe thing, a marginalized thing, a youth. To be anti war and I feel like at this point, it's beyond war. It is just an absolute condition that you do not have to support any of the agendas that these people are creating and inflicting. You don't have to support a war just because you're told to, and you don't have to sign your name on any ballot or any bill that you don't really care about. You don't have to give the the, the power of your word to things that do not represent you. And this is something that really does recall the last Pluto and Capricorn to Aquarius transition. Notably the American revolution. And you know, the astrologer, Michael Lewton, he came up with my favorite insight about the the presence of Pluto and Capricorn in the U S chart. Because the, you know, the United States is maybe the only country that I know of that was elected with astrology. Its birth was elected by Franklin, and so Yeah, it's very There were probably others, but I take your point. Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I don't know of any, that's for We don't know of any. Exactly, and so, when you look at the United States chart, it's not, it's not like your birth, which was, Definitely divinely orchestrated in some way, but also a surprise to your mother and father, you know, did not know exactly when a child is going to be born and that's part of the joy But the united states was born at a very deliberate time well chosen. However the founding fathers of the United States were not aware of Pluto. It wasn't discovered until 1930 and they did not see Pluto in that elected chart. And the way that Michael Luton looked at this, which I just love, is that he saw this as the totally unconscious shadow, completely. So interesting. And what that represented in the United States was the unconscious shadow of the empire that it broke from and becoming aware of that shadow has been the journey from 1776 to this point we're in right now and the United States having experienced the Pluto return is Has been so painful because it's been a once and for all You must accept that you've become the monster that you once fought You have come the evil empire that you once accused the british of being that And the, the similarity between this is something that I noticed because he published this book years ago. When Joe Biden was elected at the time that the U S Pluto return was going to begin the exact return, I should say I saw it as beautifully symbolic because it was mad King George syphilitic, completely feeble in body, mind, and soul. Spirit that was at the helm of the British Empire when the revolution started, he represented the rot and decay of that. And here we are. Representing. We've become our mother. It's a horrific. Well, you know that Jungian concept of in Antio, what is it? Yes, where the opposites flip into each other. So that's exactly. Yeah, it's, it is horrifying. And truly like, you know, the reason why, I mean, I, I watched the interview with Putin and I'm, I'm extremely. against war. It's just my stance. I do not support war. I support self defense, of course. I'm not a pacifist in the way that I expect you to die if someone attacks you, but I never, ever, ever make excuses for war. I'm also I'm heartbroken to look at the numbers of Ukrainians that have died. But, I listened to the interview because I really did want to know what's his story? Honestly, what is his story? What is his justification and reasoning for this? And it was, it was jarring to me because though I disapprove and disagree, and I even can barely, I can barely even conceive of the loss and the mayhem and the murder that has been going down for the last two years in Ukraine. I was looking at Putin and trying to feel that, that sense of othering, that you're the most evil person in the world. I wanted to feel that, that easy way out, like, here's the worst person. Right. Our mortal enemy. Isn't it great that we're such good people and he's so evil and it's impossible to do Why it was so dangerous for the mainstream media. It was dangerous because the reality is that the united states is worse It's worse. Not saying he's good by default. I'm not saying I'm not saying that we're evil and he's good I'm saying that you can't feel the same Polarization when you look at someone like putin in this age in america because We are the bad guys We are the ones that have been spreading mass murder mayhem and Polarization absolute imperial devastation across the world with impunity and no regrets. And one thing I loved about what Putin shared is that he broke down like how stupid and arrogant and impulsive our our supposed top strategists are. Right. It reminded me once again that yes there's the separation. The 1% They're not smarter than the average person. They're not better. They no longer represent that aristocratic loftiness. Their clothes, their clothes are more expensive, but they're just as ugly. Their religion, is supposedly superior because it's been sanitized of the cosmos, traditional wisdom, and God, but they do not impress me with their religious fervor. I don't feel that the situation that we're in right now is correct. going to continue to unfold the way that the quote unquote 1 percent would like. Because the U. S. Pluto return will be over by the end of 2024. And that era of Pluto and Aquarius has this quality of, yes, technology. Certainly intellectual fervor ideas and technological advancement, however, and what I loved about your talk, which I listened to in detail, Jessica was that you did really centered around what it means to be human, and what it actually is. What it means to be human as the most important tenet and the most important meditation of Aquarius, the sign of Aquarius, which is the only other sign, aside from Virgo, that uses the image of a human. And I really connect with that, you know, the, the maiden in the field of wheat, and the water bearer, these human figures, and I've always thought, you know, Virgo's the servant of humanity but Aquarius is the servant of, you know, the gods or the ancestors or all time and eternity, however you want to look at it. And to me, what I'm excited about is that this separation from the one percent and this disgust and contempt for the corruption and the sickness in these people, the war lords and the war criminals is who I'm referring to, not just from the United States, across the world, those that coalesce around these values that separation is going to be ultimately a great benefit because they're not meditating on things that are actually important, in my opinion. They're so obsessed with science that has been sanitized of all, of all, common decency. They've been usurped mentally and emotionally by their religious fervor, living forever inside of a digital cloud, having robot servants, replacing all human activities with simulated experience. These things are not going to ultimately show strength. And so to me, the, the calling in Aquarius is to return to the real understanding of what it means to be human, which will weave in, it will weave in past. It will weave in traditional wisdom. It's going to dip into the past, not to be anachronistic, not to just put on civil war reenactments. I don't mean that. I mean like genuine deep dive into ancestral wisdom, which I always say, like our solution, our remedy for Artificial intelligence is ancestral intelligence, AI. And to me, that's the real gift that's going to be flourishing, perhaps still at the edges. I'm not saying that we are not going to be struggling with the herd mentality, the Borg, the conformist attitudes that seem to be destroying all free thought. But at the same time, there's that revelation, like, how much of the mob that hates Glenn Greenwald is real, and how much is a bot war? How much of the public opinion that actually criticizes free speech and anti censorship, and somebody as awesome as Glenn Greenwald, who was a hero at the beginning of Pluto and Capricorn, now supposedly being an untouchable? I mean, it's ridiculous, and I feel like the percentage of people that really care really feel that way about Glenn Greenwald is much smaller than what is presented, and that's one of the most important things to remember. Being human is so much more than being influenced by technology and AI, and being human is going to be the most essential survival skill, I think, in this upcoming era. And just one last thing, I mean, the word human, Originally it comes from Proto Indo European roots, and, you know, the, the, the Latin word homo comes from, or humanus, they all relate to the idea of being of the earth, so it's like earth sling or earth meat, but then that man It's Man, is related to the Sanskrit Manu, who was the divine progenitor of humanity. And then in Sanskrit, that root actually means to think. And so the word human self means a being of earth who thinks. Very interesting. Beautiful. And I think that's a great spot to wrap this for us. wonderfully articulated, Rachel. I had no idea that etymology of the word human. I want to add one interesting footnote to what you made about Aquarius as a human figure in the Zodiac and then Virgo. One of the things I discovered when I did my fabulous Taylor Swift piece was how Regulus, the fixed star that you could say was always associated with the 1%, the royalty. Yeah. Now progressed it's at one degree Virgo now for the next 2000 something years. Oh, wow. I did not know that. Yeah, so that's a nice kind of one, two octave, harmonious octave resonance or whatever between Aquarius and this new thing, this particular star that has for so many years always been associated with, you know, You know, those that ruled royalty, the 1%. And here we are in Virgo. Hey, I want to thank Jessica Murray. Oh, you're so welcome. Jessica, any closing thoughts or, you know, revelations? I think that we can, you know, we'll all be thinking about the Pluto and Aquarius issues going forward. And we're we'll have a lot of time to revisit them all the things that are going to become flashpoints that have to do with that sign that the beauty. the beautiful potentials and the hideous distortions of it both. Yeah. And I just, I love the, the whole, you know, theme of the question, the inquiry, what is it that it, what is it to be human? I think, You know, I was, as I was listening to Rachel, I, I just was like, God, I mean, you know, we've gotten so fucking distanced because of all of the technological, you know, dazzlement and everyone's got their phone and that, you know, that they're constantly like merged with the mechanical. And now it's time for the human to like, you know, that the figure out what is human to step forth rubble. Yes, 100 percent a machine. A machine cannot think. It can process information. It can it can draw upon a tremendous amount of data. It can aggregate content. It can summarize, it can calculate, but the whole. premise that a machine can think is false. And that's something that I believe is important to remember the more that we get into this upcoming era, where we're going to be constantly inundated with this idea that not only can machines think, but they can think better than you. And That there's something insignificant about you. In fact, you're a part of a subspecies now. This is not true. Right. And I really believe that. I believe that's objectively not true. Yes. So remember that, everyone. Your human being, your, your ability to think is not the same as what your computer does. It's a beautiful thing that humans created computers because they can think, but the computer can't think. And you can never, ever, ever replace the artistic spirit, the creative spirit. These things will return humanity again to that former understanding, that traditional cosmic understanding of what we're doing here. And What is truly dignified and special about being human? That doesn't mean that it's one sided, all positive thinking. Obviously, humanity is flawed. The human condition is full of agony. But to lose the dignity of the human being, to lose the dignity of the individual, I mean, that's where we're at. And I don't think that it has strength to keep going this way. And I do see a tremendous flowering of Awareness of what it really means to be human, which means that there is divinity in you and you can interpret that however you want, you know? Right. However you want. Okay. Thank you everybody. Okay, my friend Jessica. Thank you again. Everyone, check out mother sky.com, which is Jessica site. Yeah. And again, really appreciate you being here with us on Rage of Aquarius. It's been wonderful. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Have a beautiful day. God bless. Bye.