We had the pleasure to sit down with Physiotherapy superstar Roger Kerry. Roger is the programme lead for undergraduate BSc Physiotherapy at the University of Nottingham.
As well as being a professor, having a PHD and multiple global publications to his name, Roger goes through some of his teaching experiences, the development of the new Physiotherapy curriculum, what he enjoys doing in his spare time, and discusses the risings costs of music tickets!
We had the pleasure to sit down with Physiotherapy superstar Roger Kerry. Roger is the programme lead for undergraduate BSc Physiotherapy at the University of Nottingham.
As well as being a professor, having a PHD and multiple global publications to his name, Roger goes through some of his teaching experiences, the development of the new Physiotherapy curriculum, what he enjoys doing in his spare time, and discusses the risings costs of music tickets!
[Seven Dark Lords - Glad Ghosts plays] Hello and welcome to It's Not Just Physio podcast with me, James Coughlan. the podcast is designed for listeners to get to know our wonderful staff within the School of, Health Sciences at the University of Nottingham. Just a little bit better. And I'm delighted to have, Roger Kerry with us today. Hi, Roge. Hi, James. Thanks for having us on this podcast. This is great. Well, it's a pleasure to have you here. And, well, I was just going to say, have you ever been on a podcast before? But I think I know the answer to that. yeah, I think so. I can tell you what they are or what they were about, but yeah, I think so. So you feeling all right about this? Yeah. And it's good for. Excellent. so once you just start really about if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself, your background within the school here and maybe just a bit of an overview of you. What you do. Yeah. Thanks, James. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm Roger Carey. I'm currently the, lead for the BSc physio therapy program in the undergraduate one. so I have been here some, some years. In fact, Kirsty asked me to do a career map thing the other day for the third year, and I had I had to remind myself when I started and all that. So I've been. I've been here actually quite a while. I'm not going to tell you exactly when, but quite a few years, seeing a few changes has seen a few ups and downs. yeah. And bit around the university doing different jobs. Keep himself busy. And now, yeah, back here in the undergraduate program, trying to. Yeah, read things missing. So make sure everybody's happy. How's that going? It's going. It's change. We're in a massive period of change, aren't we? So it's all flux. It's all transitions. everything I think, generally, everything's going in the right direction and, everything sort of. We anticipated to be some challenges in. That's that's good. it's good to have lots of support. It's good to have lots of communications with the students. And, and of course, as you know, we've been doing this in, in collaboration with lots of other stakeholders, with the clinicians and with the, therapy leads in the trusts and patients. it's been a real, really interesting journey, and it's giving us a chance to sort of rethink about what we want to do and where we're going and what physiotherapy is all about. So for people who don't know, I mean, this course has gone through a quite a big change over the last year, 18 months, hasn't it? do you want to tell us a bit more about where this changes sort of come from and where you see it, see it going? Yeah, yeah, it's briefly as possible. I mean, we're in the midst of massive changes in health care in terms of what we know about health and in terms of the politics of health and the economics of health. And just, there was a sort of perfect storm, really, where we have course, here at Nottingham, the BSc physiotherapy course was due for accreditation with our professional body, the CSP, and our regulator, the HCP, and they were both pushing for courses to have a good look at themselves and saying, are you doing the best thing? and we did a crossover and we so recent history, just pre-COVID, there was the, the team were planning to sort of, revamp the curriculum anyway. And there was, there was a working group looking at that. And then Covid came and it also died down. but then since Covid, the CSP did a body of work looking at the what the future of physiotherapy education should look like. They know the know best project. And also I was involved with World Physiotherapy. We just produced a document about the future of global physiotherapy education as well. So there's all these sort of forces coming in, all saying the same thing really. you know physiotherapy. So it used to look like this. And in the future it's probably gonna look a bit like this. And then we're in the middle of that, that gap. So like what what do you do. You've got to sort of talk to the past and the future at the same, same time in any way. But but the on balance move towards the future that that's quite a challenge. So yeah. Well I as you know James, because you you've been integral to it all. It's been colorful. Yeah it certainly has. But seeing even the bits that I've seen in terms of where it's where it's going to, I think it's it's really exciting. And I think in terms of that, of what the school is, is trying to do and what it is actually doing, I think it I think it can only be a positive going forward. So as you say, there is that sort of respect between the past and and the now and, and where the future future's going. But taking us back to sort of maybe the start when you first started your sort of teaching kind of career, what did what did you sort of remember from the beginning of that? I mean, looking at where we are now, like how different were of, you know, were things, I think there were lots of differences, but there were lots of similarities as well. I mean, yeah, you know, you never going to truly move away from the practical side of everything and getting stuck in and and doing stuff. It's, it's it's the way you frame that in the sort of depth of information that goes beyond that, I suppose. And I guess, the biggest thing, the easiest way to summarize it is it was very biomedical. It was very tissue based, my early days of my education and when I also when I first started teaching as well, and in lots of ways that made things very simple and easy. It's just like as a bit of tissue, it might do this and prod er, and everything will be all right. of course, you know, we know that, we know that's not our health works at all. Now, which now makes things a little bit more complicated, but it is a real, you know, those, those, those days that they're really sort of warm and comfortable and safe sort of memories because it was all cut and dry, even though it didn't seem so at the time. But I guess we look back at this phase in another ten, 20 years and think, actually, it's all right now because things are just going to get more complex, really, the more we understand it, the more research you do and the more science drives things. You know, back in my day, it wasn't, evidence based medicine was a thing, but it was only just started. So not much was underpinned by research or scientific evidence. It was underpinned by an authority figure saying this is the best way to treat this person, something. Then you just sort of go on with it and say, that's a really nice, linear, simple model, really. But it's it's different now. We'll pick up a little bit more about sort of those future challenges and where things are going a little bit later on in the, in the podcast, but I mean, you're a physiotherapist yourself. So what, what got you into that as a profession at the beginning? How did you end up becoming a physio? I guess like most people in like I was students. Nowadays you're interested in the physical side of things in the in the helping people, in the caring for people, in the, but it's, there's something beyond just the carers. It's the actually doing stuff with all, you know, the demographics of physios is, you know, you know, kids, young people who like to get on with things and do things and, and, and get other people doing things. and it was I'd come from a sort of sporting background as well in cycling. So I was quite into movement in the human body and performance and stuff like that. So it's like the perfect job that matches all that. And I think a lot of people still do come into it through that sport in route. And it's that classic stories in it. Like everyone who wants to physio because they think physio is about sport or running on the pitch of time with the sponge and all that business. And then quite early on, as you start to look into it, you realize it's different things and that that might put some people off and it might motivate others. So I was really sort of excited by the fact I thought it was just rubbing legs at the end of a race or something too. Then there's the stroke patients and the and the chronically ill and the respiratory patients and all that sort of, I really like that diversity. So it was great right from, from the start for me. But yeah, that, that interest in the human body and how we can achieve our best and and then sort of as you sort of learn all the different layers of that, it's, it's about the bit that bigger picture stuff as well about actually the stuff we deal with is a real problem, because if somebody's got some pain or they've had a stroke or they've got mental health issues or whatever, they're not going to go to work, and then that affects society and the economy. And, and there's all these other layers and it's just gets, oh my God, we are really actually quite important people if we get it right. Do you think on that? And as you say, that's definitely where it's all going to. And that sort of effect on society and as you say at the beginning of perhaps physio profession, it was a little more sort of tissue based, do you think physio perhaps on the cells itself a little bit with those sort of global challenges and those kind of global things that we see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we undersell ourselves and also restrict ourselves by and again, this is a difficult thing. Is it hanging onto the past a bit, wanting to move forward. and, and sort of not knowing really where to push yourselves. Because why don't you start talking about those higher level things like health in society and, to global health and. preventing preventative health and stuff at the same time. Maybe you think about that's like dismissing the person centered, individualized care that way that we all started with it. We're really good at it. We don't really want to let go that. So we're really struggling with how you sort of position those two things, care for the individual. But actually, we probably much more effective overall if we, if we look at high level stuff. But that doesn't necessarily mean not caring for the individual. But so how how do you do all that. And then it gets really messy and complex. So and I think that's where we are now, I think that is that position where learning more about environmental physiotherapy, sustainable physiotherapy, high level strategies to, to improve society and the health of society. But I'm not convinced. And I think a lot of people are convinced that the traditional model of physiotherapy, this sort of occupational model of physiotherapy, 1 to 1 treatment, seeing a patient every half hour, every day of the week, every week at the moment, every month of the year, every year of the decade is the most sustainable way to do that. I think that's a part of it. But this we're perhaps underselling ourselves by. I don't know, I guess we still that is still this perception of what a physiotherapist is. And we sort of use that possession to sell ourselves. But in doing so, we're missing the big trick that. So I guess if you'd surveyed the lay population and said what is what the physios do, they'll say something like, you know, what do you said treat people, rehabilitate people after injury or whatever to 1 to 1 basis. And culturally, I, I guess not people, not many people realize that physiotherapy has the potential to do all that other stuff as well. and so I think that's what we've got to get good at selling, selling ourselves. I don't know, that attractive that an ox to an 18 year old. Well, I think I mean, that sort of identity as a physio is, is changing. And certainly I think we've both seen there are people we know people very, very much maybe in, in one particular area, they like what they like, they do what they do. But how exciting that that whole concept is of all those skills. And one thing I've I've come across, but I'd love to get your thoughts on it is I've, I've often seen, I think, physiotherapist conventionally undersell themselves or they're not always aware of how many skills they've learned and developed through doing the profession and how transferable those skills are. Is that some of that you can recognize? Yeah, yeah, 100%. And again, it's that conflict between you want to retain this. There's there's no way we we necessarily going to lose those skills or never teach those, those sort of skills again. But again it's that sort of paradox. In doing so you are then not optimizing those those those are other things. So we almost need to have two hats on all the, all the time. that ability to, to do that 1 to 1 care and think about individual, you know, assessment and management of whatever it is, but, but also thinking, okay, actually, if we really wanted to reduce the burden of low back pain on society props, just mobilize in this back and give you some pain. Education to one person isn't the best way to do that. Although it's really important. This person at this that this time. and I guess some people might say that isn't our job, and maybe there's some other people who could do the big stuff, the societal stuff. I would argue. No, I don't think there. I think we're we're the best place profession to to do that because we understand and we, we understand these sort of particularly, you know, chronic persistent diseases and how they behave and how people, with those, conditions behave. You know, we're the experts in that. So why shouldn't we be the, the leaders in thinking out of that suggest at all, at all levels? absolutely. And I think there's that coming back to that identity, bringing into that new level of thinking, a new level of being. But we do still see those, those physiotherapists who are quite strong. It's usually a conversation when I've been on courses and it's like, oh, how are you? What what do you do? Well, I'm an MSC physio and I'm at and then the next thing I'm a, I'm a neuro and I'm a respiratory. There are still, as you say, these sort of camps and. Yeah, but surely from what you're saying we want to be producing videos that can do it. All right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, a simple example is, you know, health care is is being driven out into the community even more aware out of those camps and out of those silos and although it's still very nice to get nice and comfortable to think, I mean, despite our sort of best efforts on this, this new program, which is to try and get out of those camps a bit, we still do naturally think of MSK in your unconscious way. And it's it's a good sort of clean way of learning bits of the human. but but again, healthcare doesn't necessarily work like that. And what we need to, to try and do is pull out again, like, say, those transferable things that cross all those. So any physiotherapist could go into the community or whatever situation, and there will be somebody with co-morbidities. and that and any physiotherapy would, would be able to do it. I, I always sort of, sort of half laugh, half cringe looking back at how we used to work when I was a junior physio and stuff, and you worked in MSK, or neuro or whatever. And then when you saw neuro, you had a stroke patient now shoulder pain. So you'd phone the MSK physio to say, I've got a stroke patient who's got shoulder pain. Can you come and see him? Oh yes. Yes, I must come because I'm the MSK physio and it's shoulder. It's like a human. He's a human with health who who needs to get back to work and enjoying his life. I get why it's like, really weird, you know? So we need to get way, way over that. And again, look at those real, real high quality, transferable things that we have and, and think of humans in a different way. Other than that, on the one hand, the collection of musculoskeletal stuff, and then there's some nerves and then there's some breathing stuff. It's just a human who wants to get back to work with the people who can do that. Do you think sometimes we might over complicate things? Yes. That's the profession. Yeah. My mission is to simplify physiotherapy. I think that's, you know, that's been our, Well, we call it death dental whatever. It's, it's continue to try to make things more complicated. And I got, you know, there is some sort of writ. There's some written stuff about this in the literature, but and I've, you know, I've got some sort of strong thoughts about this as well. It, it, it's this thing and again, I know you're going to talk to Fiona at some, some point, but it's something that we've both written about and spoken about a lot. It's like it's like the sociology of professions, and it's like physiotherapy is trying to find its identity with complexity. And anatomy is a good example. And physiology. So we try to identify ourselves by being knowledge, deeply knowledgeable. And that's really no more anatomy than the nursing professionals is stuff like that. But then when you actually sort of pin pencils down and say, and don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing the importance of role of anatomy. We do have anatomy, right? so but if you if you really think about it, you can pin, pin yourself down and think, okay, in order to get this guy with with sort of chronic shoulder pain, back to working at Amazon. How much anatomy do I need to know? You need to know some stuff, of course, but you don't need to know it in the traditional model that we've been taught. And so learn everything about anatomy and work upwards, and then try and work out which bits you need for that patient. you know, the opposite of that is something I want to get John back to working Amazon. He's got this chronic shoulder pain. What's the minimum stuff I need to know. And if we can free up some capacity in our minds by chucking out all that unnecessary detail, then we can improve things like understanding John in the Human and Rehabilitation. and you, we need to have a bit of, again. I guess it's back to this selling ourselves. Things change. Like you said, we need a new USP rather than what physios are identified by their knowledge of complex stuff. we can have complex stuff, but at the other end, let's have complex rehab and complex societal health stuff. And let's just say that. But I'm dead identity that also that all seems gets chucked into there is is massaged in it. You know ultimately physios seemingly it's like you've got an injury go and see a physio about massage and we don't really teach that on, on, on. Well we've got a little nod to it but there's a reason for that. But just based on that, how many people do you speak speak to. So have you got back issue come into your chiropractor. It's like and the bits where we should be. It doesn't seem like we're in the conversation sometimes. And then we get linked into other bits, which we don't really do. And what seems a little bit confusing doesn't it? Yeah. It is. I mean, we've got a whole history steeped in massage. That's the sort of where we where it all began, but I dunno, still, I'm still really blown away when you see, again, late members of the public or students coming in stay with that perception of what physiotherapy is. Again, not dismissing the, utility of massage in some in, in some populations of people at some time and stuff. you know, there's, there's some good evidence to support that. But using something like massage as an identity feature of what physiotherapy is, is, is like the most bizarre thing in the world. It seems to me. But it's it's still the case. It would seem, with this where we, you know, where we want this to go. It sounds obviously with the students we certainly have here, trying to help create well-rounded it's people, clinicians, pioneers. I mean, I guess the list is endless of of where where they can go with doing a course like this at the moment and all these new skills that they're learning. Yeah, yeah. It's just, again, it's all it's all new isn't it. Transitional at the moment, but and it's, it's hard to see that at times on a day to day basis and how students feel with what they're learning and things like that. And I, I absolutely get that. but it's really a really refreshing, as you know, just a couple of weeks ago, we had a meeting with one of the, trust therapy leads, and we were talking about that expectations and desires for what a band five physio should look like. And it was really warming to hear that. What you've just said, James, is exactly what they were after his interview for band five. Interview, again, not dismissing clinical skills because of course they've got to go day one of their band five job. They've got to go up on the ward or into outpatients or whatever and, and do stuff. But the, the clinical stuff came fairly low down on their list and they were have to, they were after people who were adaptable, who were flexible, who could work in a team, who could lead, who could critically appraise, information very quickly, who, again at the leadership think and comes up, the and then the, the, the comments on the clinical stuff as of course, you know, they got thousands of hours of clinical experience so they come into band five interview with that. But specific clinical experience wasn't valued too much as long as they had real transferable stuff that could cut across any clinical environment, because the trust management and leadership don't know how healthcare's changing in the next five, ten years. So they need somebody with those transferable skills and that adaptability and leadership and, and, and creative use of evidence to convince, first of all, commissioners to still pay for physiotherapy, but to survive in in that rapidly changing environment. And you and I both know and hope that that, that so that's the person we're trying to produce. But it's it's a tough job to get that because we all we all want to just do some mobilizations and learn detailed anatomy and stuff like that and that clunks against some of this stuff, some sometimes it's evident that, you know, you want to help create this, this change. Do you think this is a reason why you started your career in teaching in university and in academia? I think without sounding a bit. So, what the word is, I don't know, pompous or something like that. Say, if my original aim to come into this career was to help people and improve the world, something grand like that, you know, or, you know, have a contribution to to. To a progressive, inclusive society of and and a productive society, something like that, through the means of physical physicality. Then it's not a matter of, oh, I started when I trained, we would we did this very biomedical thing. But what I really want to do is a more a holistic societal level of health care. It's not a matter of that. It's a matter of and that and that sort of person who wants to do that stuff, and you just respond to the evidence and the politics and the science and the systems in you dealt with that. And it just so happens that this is this is where it seems to be taken, is, you know, we need to be more sustainable. We all know there were there's global challenges in terms of climate economics, culture, politics, extremism in politics. There's all sorts of things. And we we play we play a part in that. and we can't ignore any of that, you know, and if physiotherapy is going to sell itself, is, is a is a serious discipline and profession that can contribute to a healthier and progressive and inclusive society. We need to adapt and we need to we need to embrace that stuff. We need to we need to think about so, so nice example. And again, I'll sort of not take it not to people like Matt Lowe and, and he's, he's doing his PhD with us in some of his thoughts, linked to like environmental physiotherapy and then not to the environmental physiotherapy group as well. And Felipe and all that that but and I struggle I struggle this quite a while but now it's quite, it's quite clear because Matt used to say, physiotherapy needs to stop being so human centered and that that went completely against me because I was all about person centeredness and understanding the individual and now realize what what it means. After so many years of thinking, we we need to think about the human in its in its relationship to other objects and things like, like the environment. And actually, if we're going to improve physical health, we're you're not going to do that without considering the environment that that human existed. You're only going to get so far. So I could improve somebody's back pain and movement with hands or stuff like that in education. But is is actually a contribution to society is going to be limited by the environment he exists in. So physiotherapist need to understand that first of all and then perhaps approach some somebodies long term illness through through environmental pathways rather than tissue tissue pathways. And I think if it is, if anybody isn't tuned in with the environmental physiotherapy group, really now is the time to, to do that. So they've got that. That's an organization with the website and Twitter accounts and everything and do some great work. But but yeah, that sort of thing is really exciting. I mean, I would just say going back five, ten, 20 years, this is a completely new sort of area to be. But I think in terms of, some of my understanding, I think in the past it was just sort of where physios kind of feels at times is low, is losing a little bit of what it's trying to trying to do at times as well. And I know the KSP are trying to perhaps come on board and wrestle with that. And as you say, I guess ultimately we're autonomous practitioners so we can I guess we can stand where we want on that, on that line. But I guess it's probably the element and freedom of choice. but then giving people like what we're doing here, the opportunity to explore those options and try those things, and it might be some seeds are planted now, but they may come into fruition later. Yeah, yeah. No, you're absolutely right. All we're doing here is providing openness in context and for for anybody to choose where they want to listen to the conversations. there is there's something about risk to the profession in all of this as well. But I don't think the risk to the profession is just about where this move that we're talking about now, we it's things like, you know, we've got to be a better. So, let's take some historical things with where, where did we come from. We came from remedial gymnastics and massage essentially, and we got good at that. But then other people started doing that stuff as well. you know, even like personal trainers and stuff, a greater exercise and, and osteopaths and chiropractors are great at the hands, hands on stuff and, all that stuff that identifies as cam, shoot me if you want can be done better by other people. So we're not necessarily the experts in exercise because we've got exercise experts who are better than us. Strength and conditioning, personal trainers and the hands on the side, chiropractors, osteopaths, whatever. I'm just talking about on the musculoskeletal side. But but if you do look at some of those professions, they seem to be a bit more adaptable. That is, if you look at the chiropractic curriculum now, it's adapted itself much better than we have to sort of, advanced rehabilitation and more hands off stuff. I, I don't know. So it's a real challenge. I just think we need to be careful of who we sell ourselves as, because other people are doing that good stuff that at the nose. And but we have got that other stuff to to to offer. It's it's really challenging. a few years ago I got really annoyed because I was at the CSP and Karen Middleton, who was the head, I person in the KSP, gave a talk about the future physiotherapy. This must have been, I don't know, ten more than ten years ago. And she said, I don't know what the future of physiotherapy is going to be like, but there's one thing I am certain of, and she said it's going to be a hands off profession. And I got really angry at that one. There was lots of anger in the room and what, what do you talk about? I know I never really understood what she meant by that, and I sort of do more. So now, that in in the fact that we can because we've sort of always thought that we need our hands to improve people's health and that of course, there will always be an element of that. But I think what she was talking about with you is what we were. I've just explained now we can improve somebody's physical health through through other ways. We don't necessarily and, and therefore become more sustainable. so yeah, things like that is complex. Okay. Just a bit. And I think as well, like something that I've, you know, then again, maybe not the best example of things, but I was watching episode of Dragon's Den, the other night and, they had this, they had a couple of, speakers on, on it, and they brought all this kit out. It was like, portable ice baths for your home and a Theragun, and this not the other. And they're like, yeah, invest in this mess and this and and, you know, and I just looked at this objectively and some of the dragons were looking at this stuff saying, but this isn't any different to loads of other things that you can get. And I think what you said is a really good point in that there, we have to be realistic. There are other professions that perhaps do what we did do better now, but one thing that the Dragons actually invested in was actually the people presenting the actual the actual product. And they said, you know what? The product's actually not really bothered about the products actually investing in you. Yeah. And I think going forward, I think what I feel really, passionate about with this, is, is like saying what we, what we're doing and we always have done at Nottingham, but continue to do is to create individuals that are unique. They have that identity. But you trying to arm them with all these extra, extra bits. And I think that that is hopefully the way that that it that it will go. And I think that that's a really exciting, exciting, future. But as you say, it's complex because you've got people who've been doing this profession for years who might not want to see that and might not want to embrace that sort of pushing through this, this sort of boundary at the moment is barrier, isn't it? Yeah. Yes. With this sort of no. And so that's, that's a, that's a really good analogy, the Dragon's Den and that's, you know, if we can get to the end the, you know, graduation day if year three and you look at our third years and they've got the they've got the sort of visible skills, if you like, they can do this with the hands or that with their hands or that. And that's great. But what because all that stuff will come and go. But what we want is that solid person that can adapt to that come in and go in and they've got those, those, those deep set, foundational and high level skills of adaptability, of leadership. of of of just just being a real sort of, genuine, mature professional being critical, being who, who's aware that, you know, that the, the actual visible, explicit stuff they will be doing is just going to continually change all the time. So, like you say, the it's the investment in the person. Yeah. Not not the tool. Yes. and and I think that's the big change over the last couple of decades, probably because it's easy to look back and identify people who've been, characterized by by the tool, if you like, like, you know, the great manual therapist was great because he could, had great hands. and, and actually, I'd even argue against that because if you look at the great manual therapists, Bob, Elvie, Jeff Maitland not rubbing, you can see whether they were sold as that great hands sort of thing, but they were just great people who could communicate and lead and and that's all they were. and yes, they could perhaps press in a particular way, but that didn't matter. If you look at what they wrote and what and the real sort of literature and stories behind them, they would just really be great leaders and, communicators, and they could listen to a patient. And so it's always been there. We just making it more explicit. Yeah. And and being on on some of these, you know, accounts that you go into these, these courses seminars you with some of these people for, you know, 2 or 3 days and they can still hold the room from the moment they walked in to, to the end of the second or third day. And you're like, wow, this the energy, the, the passion, enthusiasm. and I certainly think as a, as a, as a patient, but also the impact on society. I think having that having that there. Yeah. It's quite hard to measure isn't it. Yeah. We kind of know it's there. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you see there it is. You said it. That's that's who we are. You know if, if we're going to re-identify ourselves, let's just do that. And if we can hold a room for three days or if we can engage a patient and create behavioral change in the patient, we are also then able to engage a commissioning body, a political body. We should be able to be part we should be able to walk into houses of Parliament in government and in the same way that, You know, medicine does in the nursing body does the power of the powerful lobbyists. And that's what that's what we like. But we've got all that potential. We just don't use it. We are we are those people who could engage a government body in the same way we could engage. Mrs.. Begins with, intermittent claudication rehab. Why are we doing it? Why do we do it? It's ridiculous. So, I mean, going going forwards, I mean, I guess we'll not be just I'll be great when it, you know, if we if we have someone from, from this course going out and, and lobbying parliament or something like that, but I guess it doesn't, that doesn't mean therefore that that's the only positive change, as you say, that's there's many ways to create positive changes in the people we see and the impact we have on people's lives, big and small. And I think that's that's one of the nice things about the course is there's lots of, you know, opportunity for students to go out and do things in the community and. Yeah, yeah. And that always, always fills us with pride saying that. Yeah. And it's given the students the confidence in the new class, the confidence to know that it's them, that it's do that. It's not the it's not necessarily the learn skills. It's, it's they're learned values and their behaviors in the knowledge and in their learned communication leadership skills that that's doing that just we just need folks to understand that they it's not your skill base that's making you successful. It it it's that other stuff. And you know, like like say James, we have got not university and you've got a track record of producing amazing graduates. Whatever the color and flavor of our curriculum is, it's going to change forever. And it will do. but, you know, Jack, Jack two just went out there and went to Parliament and said, come on, change MSC, let's have some reform. Yeah, we need bold people, need disruptive leaders. We need creative leaders, inclusive leaders. and I guess students get fed up with us talking about leadership because they think it's something big and grandiose. But leadership is also the 1 to 1 patient level as well. It's just recognizing that. And as I say, what you do it, that 1 to 1 patient level is exactly the same skill set at what you could do other the other levels as well. And I think as, as, as you, you noted earlier about this, we've got the past, we've got the future and we've got sort of the middle of where we are now, you know, is it in our position of of trying to help the students? I think it's that sort of we've gone through that life experience and we know what it's like out there. And we like, we need more of, of, of, of this coming, coming through to make that change. But it's tough, isn't it? Because again, if you had 18, 19, 20, yeah, 20 years of age, it's understandable. It might not quite be on your radar. Yeah. Yeah. But it might well be that when they're out in the real world doing the job full time and that those things start to click into place. Go on. Right. Okay. Start to see where it is. And I always feel what we're trying to do is prepare people for for life. Yeah. And that's the real world of of work. Yeah. A real challenge in a world that's just going to get more challenging and more complex and change quicker, at a quicker pace than it ever has before. So we'd be irresponsible if we weren't. We're producing at the end of three years. Somebody with those that adaptability, that flexibility, that leadership, that creativity because they just going to collapse otherwise within a year, the and based on that you know hopefully we'll have some students listening to this podcast. But if there is like a strap line or a piece of advice or a bit of wisdom that you could give to them or, or even even if it was you to your, to your own self back as a student, you know, is there anything that you feel that you'd say, you know what? It's take this run with that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I wish there was what I'm struck down there probably is somewhere. I think it's some of this is just about enjoying this learning process and to the extent of the program and just just work with it, with it. And, and, you know, we're all all the staff, all the, you know, everything about the program and everything about the staff are here for for the students. And we, we do everything to, for the benefit, for the benefit of the student. And sometimes that's not easy to see. So enjoy the learning roll with the program. You're in it for the long game. You've got to learn everything this month or this year. it's all it's, you know, it's all planned for you. You're going to get there. But just just just enjoy it. The learn the skills, learn the knowledge, learn the values, learn the behaviors. not not learn them because you for coming with you. You were chosen for this program because of your values and behaviors and knowledge. You just we just got it. We're just working with you to really strengthen strengthen those. But you're in it for the long game. There's a strap line. You're in it for the long game. Let's take a little step outside of work and and and physio for a little bit a little bit more about yourself. What how do you balance your, you know, your incredibly busy job and things. How do you balance that with life? And what do you like doing outside of outside of work? What gives you some enjoyment and purpose? I think that's a loaded question, Jimbo, because, you know, like, music is a passion. and, so, yeah, music is a big one. Physical activity, running around, cycling, family time, that's all good stuff. Yeah, but but the real sort of switch off, lose yourself, get away from it all is obviously the music. And you know, I am a self played for Lawrence County. but mostly in another band, which of course seven dark and they just got a new drummer as well. right. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Any good? yeah. All right. Couple more auditions, and I think we'll make your mind up. Yeah. So, Yeah, that that's that's where it's at, isn't it? That's that's the switch off. That's the balance. have you, have you been to any, any gigs recently? Are you got any gigs lined up that you're going to go and watch or fly in or anything? It's been a while since I saw George Gadd. oh. He's good, but yeah, I had his cousin. He's. Oh, yeah. So we left. We left to get, to to The Godfather soon. and we've got some, we've got some things lined up with Lawrence County. We got some festival stuff out. It was seven doors and, this, go to watch somebody else. Jason Isbell, who's one of my favorite country singers, is coming to the UK. But I'm not going to see him because it's like £90, like weird. Where are the where's the other, you know, the Manchester's closest I think Manchester for you. Where were they playing. Academy. Yeah, I think so. Is it. Yeah. Not bad. But to be fair for £90 at the academy, that's a bit of state. I love music, but I've also got morals. These new artists selling out strong, strong music community. It's all gone. So gone, isn't it? But, But yeah, I think obviously having that that balance between work and, and outside work's obviously obviously very important. yeah. You music, you know, is important to you and you know, being able to, to play. And I think that's something we try and get through a little bit. Just going back on to the course to the students as well, isn't it to say, of course the course is important. I know that the you know, it's why am I here? But having those things outside the course of we can, I think is really important, isn't it? Just touching on a bit of enjoyment and decompress a bit, you know? Yeah. The best years of your life sees you the, and you just got to make the most of everything. Yeah, absolutely. You just let's say a couple of things within that. You said you've got, you know, a couple of fate with particular favorite musician, but do you have a favorite band or favorite song you particularly like, or is that just, again, a completely idiotic question. Answering this question, it's like, say, what's your favorite child? Well, I tell you, my favorite child is my daughter because my son owes me £50. so that's that is actually easier to answer than the, the song thing that they change all the time. Do these things, songs and films and stuff like that. But I do like films and I like Christian films like, you know, Quentin Tarantino, some Guy Ritchie stuff and things like that. But and anything exciting and gritty is good. but there's some really new. But my daughter introduces Mr. New Guns all the time, and I, I really like, you know, I'm stuck in the old, the old days and and the country stuff. But then she comes. so I've been listening to a lot of, like, divorce. A really good Nottingham band, aren't they? They're amazing. And, Fontaines DC, top of my playlist at the moment and stuff like that, but that'll change next week. Black Country New Road is quite interesting. Songs as well. And I mean, I have to check some of those things, check some of those bands out. So it's good to get a good, good recommendation. But I think, in terms of, in terms of that, it's been absolutely great to have you on the, on the podcast. I don't know if there's any last bit you want to finalize and say, I think your strapline was really great, but I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to just sort of round up and say, before we finish. yeah. It's just been it's just been great. so thanks. Thanks for doing this, James. It's been good stuff. We really want to, you know, this is all about our students. Everything. Everything we do is is all about creating the best experience and outcome for our students. So. And they're such a great, great bunch of folks as well. Yeah, they really are. They really are. Well thank you. Well thank you Roger. Thank you. producer George in the, in the corner. And, yeah, we look forward to doing this again soon as we shall not have gone away. He.