Academic plan lead for Sport Rehabilitation (BSc) Richard Moss goes through career trajectory having previously held Senior Lecturer roles at the University of Bedfordshire (2015-2018) and Leeds Beckett University (2014-2015), as well as Lecturer and Course Leader roles at the University of Northampton / Moulton College (2007-2013).
We also go through a typical day in the life of Richard's role as well as the growth of the Sport Rehab profession and much more.
Academic plan lead for Sport Rehabilitation (BSc) Richard Moss goes through career trajectory having previously held Senior Lecturer roles at the University of Bedfordshire (2015-2018) and Leeds Beckett University (2014-2015), as well as Lecturer and Course Leader roles at the University of Northampton / Moulton College (2007-2013).
We also go through a typical day in the life of Richard's role as well as the growth of the Sport Rehab profession and much more.
[Seven Dark Lords - Glad Ghosts plays] So hello and welcome to it's not Just Physio podcast me James Coughlan. this podcast is designed for listeners to get to know our wonderful staff within the School of Health Sciences at the University of Nottingham. Just a little bit better. And I'm delighted to have Rich, who's joining us today. Hello Rich Irish. Have you ever been on a podcast before? Rich? No. First of all, for me, feeling all right about it. But we'll see. How will I say? I guess so first time I'm hosting. So I think I'm just as nervous as you and. But Rich, you know, just just why don't you start by just telling us a little bit about yourself, and about your background really in rehabilitation. I'm Richard Moss. I'm currently the, academic plan lead, or program lead at the University of Nottingham for the undergraduate sports rehabilitation program. and I've been here at the university now for nearly six years. My kind of background really behind, behind the roll was, in education, I've been working across various different, universities and, and colleges delivering, both FSA further education and health programs, over a number of years. Really it's kind of progressed along and changed different places and kind of learn as you go and each different place to, to adapt to things. So, that's the current role here, really. Well, it's fantastic. I mean, just it sounds like there's lots to unpack within that. But if you just maybe just take us back as it was or anything in particular that inspired you to go down this career path? quite the opposite. but both my parents are teachers, and they told me not to become a teacher. so I immediately went out and became a teacher. so I, I left university, I finished in 2006 seven. and I started teaching in the February of 2007. so, yeah, it was it was pretty quick into the teaching side of stuff. and I was doing that alongside all the practical, clinical work at the same time. So, I think it went from, having no job when you graduated, and signing on for about three weeks, through to, I think within about six months, I had at most 18 different jobs, all at the same time. So it progressed very, very quickly. and teaching just happened to be one of those, those elements. And, I took to quite quickly and enjoyed it. and that kind of led really to, to the career, I guess, which slowly over time has progressed more into the education side and less into the clinical side. so it's quite nice to still have that mix of both, but, so predominant now working in the education side of stuff, really. So, I mean, you say both your parents have been, you know, teachers and they sort of dissuading you from coming into this career. What did you think growing up, being in that kind of environment with them. Yeah, it's it's it's interesting. I mean, I never knew any different. so pretty much my whole school life and going through education, through schooling, either one or both, my parents were with their US teachers. so that was the only life I ever knew. so for me, it wasn't it was never abnormal. I think for everyone else, sort of from the outside looking in, it was a little bit more kind of strange. But then, the schools I was at, there was always other sort of students and, people who were teachers, kids. So there was always a group of us who we kind of. You saw the teachers as teachers while you were at the school, but equally, weekends, Friday nights, we were round at the houses and we were seeing them as not teachers, in their social life. So I think we, we knew people in a slightly different way to maybe a lot of the other students. And that I think probably gave you a little bit of insight into education, not just being quite as formal as you see it as a student, as you go through school, as you go through college and things. And I think that probably opened up a slightly different avenue for me because, both my parents were, were schoolteachers. and so I didn't go down that route. I came down, more of the, the actually route. So slightly different world, but same core skills, but not something I ever thought I would go into. So going through school and going through, even the university, my personality is very introverted, very quiet, quite reserved. certainly not comfortable talking to lots of new people and, and talking out loud. so the idea of standing in front of 100 or 200 10 or 50 people in a lecture theater and talking for a couple of hours, my younger self would never have done that. so actually, for for me, my gap year was big. And in terms of changing my personality a little bit, but, I'm still not a, a massively socially, outward person. I'm pretty I don't think a lot of people who really drive me socially awkward, but, obviously would do this for a living. and it's, I think it's a very different aspect to my personality now, that is the teaching side of it. Just outside of university, outside of, education life. definitely not my personality. I'm not loud or life at all. The party by means that that's really interesting because, you know, I just assume that you lecture you you take big groups, do really well at it. But that was something you always kind of probably, you know, skilled at or even comfortable doing. But from what you're saying, that's been the case. And how did you like tell us a bit about that. How did you was there a time that helped you get into that, or did you just take a big plunge into it? Or when did you notice that time when you went from, you know, oh, I couldn't do that into doing this role. It was a bit of both, actually. There's a bit of kind of tiptoe into it and a bit of jumping into it. I think I'd always check if you're university, been in a role where, I was helping others. So particularly it was, some of my friends on the program with me at, Salford, and we would kind of do a study group type things and work with people, particularly those that, didn't speak English as their first language. so I think that was kind of probably a stepping stone in the right direction for it. But then very much it was a teacher opportunity came up that was close to home at a time when I'd graduated, I was looking for for jobs that were secure and had income, that kind of thing. and then it was very much dropped into it. It was Tuesday, the day I started. I was given an exercise physiology lecture. So I think you talk about this and, left to it and it was pretty much in a room with 20, 30 odd students and I through, I still got a lecture and it looks horrendous. And, if you look at the lecture slides, it is paragraphs and paragraphs of text in yellow font and, blue background, because that's what I read online. That's the best way of showing contrast. And, you know, it's done with the right intentions. But it was absolutely horrendous. was I insulted? Rich was that way. Where did you do that? No, the first teaching job was in Northampton. So, I taught across the AP and actually, courses at Moulton College. so it's a partner college for University of Northampton. but I was teaching, some of the BTec sport programs, modules there. And then also they had degree and master's programs there as well. so many ways as a core group of staff there at the time who, looking back, actually were really academic. You've got a number of people now who were in the same staff down there who are professors at other universities. you've got people who are very high up in, in medical schools, at really big universities and things. And, we all staff in the same place. a lot of people that we still kind of talk to each other and were still involved in education, which is, quite surprising in many ways. It's quite nice, though, isn't it? All started together in at all these roles you've done. And it's interesting you saying about looking at that first presentation you did and the slides and things like that, like, can you tell us a little bit about how you've seen things change from maybe when you started to what education now looks like for a typical university student? Yeah, it's it's I mean, it's always changing. Everything changes also on daily basis. Now, but you look at, I guess when we start, I mean, it, it shows age a little bit, but we were still using, overhead projectors, for some of our lectures. So although we had things like PowerPoint, have projectors and computers, that kind of thing. and it wasn't honestly that long ago, but we still use apps and we printed so PowerPoint slides onto HP to them, projected onto the wall. It was it was that kind of, I guess, just just timing and availability of kit, really. So because it was, multiple was very much an agricultural college as its foundation. And it was very, very good at coastal agricultural courses. it was built around the farm. it was old farm buildings and, and we taught in those. So a lot of the rooms were using were kind of very traditional stone brick walls. And there wasn't the ability to put in some of the kit that we'd have available to us today. but equally, I think that it laid a really solid foundation for, for learning how to teach. I think one of the best things in many ways of starting that environment was you got a really strong work ethic, and you learned very quickly how to take on to large workloads and to deal with workload. it engulfed your life and it became your life in, a not a very balanced way. but it taught you very quickly how to do things. and I think now when we look at how we teach and the way that we teach, things that we've done, obviously the, the use of technology has grown, that's become a lot, a lot more, I guess, engaging in many ways. But we can become a little bit disengaging because it can be almost tokenistic. School can feel a little bit like a toy, and there's still the fundamental need of of how to teach things. It's there's no getting away from sort of the core skills of essentially be able to stand up and, and talk about things. I think that the trick to it in many ways, is just having confidence in your knowledge to be able to do it. And I can always remember the best advice, as I've been given by someone, who was so more seen in me at the time. It was helping me kind of, move more into the higher education side of teaching. And, coming out my first session actually with it and, and actually group, myself. So we have to see how it goes. Oh, yeah. It's great. It's, just really nervous that I thought I was going to stand there and, look at all these questions I don't know the answer to. I said, oh, don't worry, you'll always know more than the people that you're teaching. It's not always true, but you always give that impression. I think that gives the confidence in what you're saying and having that confidence and has the positive effect of people learning. So it's interesting how things change and move forward. There's always new techniques and new facts and all that kind of thing. But, I still go back to the idea that, you're not really teach, so you can go into a room with a whiteboard pen and that's it. teachers, actually, if you can do that, then I think you call yourself a teacher. No. So in terms of, your current role, you know, you're obviously where you are now. Who's program lead for sports rehab. Can you take us through, like, a typical day in your job and maybe just give a bit of insight onto some of the things you've got to continuously balance and and address? Yeah, I mean, a typical working day, is change probably since we've been through, the pandemic, it changed the way that, certainly we kind of stretch our days in many ways. But fundamentally, the day job is to teach. That's the main bulk of what we do. I think I see progress up through roles. And so it's where I am now. So leading the program you do inevitably end up in, in more meetings. so you become a little bit more managerial rather than day to day teaching, which I guess is the, the nice thing actually kind of find that teaching sessions are the nice relief from, some of the other jobs and things you have to do, but it's, it's a busy day. So for me, balancing that with family as well, did they start early for me? I've got a bit of a commute to come up to the university. So again, you've got travel time included in that. And then once you're here, then it's pretty much back to back teaching, to meeting, to teaching, to meeting. And as soon as you finish the day, you go back home to the family stuff. At the end of the day, go to sleep, start again. But yeah, it's a it's a busy day. I think typically through the week you'll get some days, which are certainly busier, some which are a little bit more heavy towards practical teaching some days, which are a little bit more theory based. if we're theory based and we can utilize things like the online learning platform. So going through things like Microsoft Teams to, to really make use of the technology that's there and, use it probably the way it should be used. rather maybe in the pandemic where we had to use it for everything. I think in many ways it almost poisoned some people too. The, the use of that because it was so used for everything. Whereas now I think there's opportunities to certainly take back some of that online platform. but equally to make use of it where it does fit, that there's definitely really positive ways that we can engage with it. And I think that kind of use of online learning is something which is really changed. so the last couple of years where we kind of got through that sudden jump into online, then total back and people almost rejected it entirely, and now it can start to settle somewhere in the middle. I'd like to think that go forward, we can kind of find that balance. I think that certainly where in, in ag terms, there's, there's a lot of use, a lot of, positives actually to, to that style of delivery. both of my staff point of view, for students, and talking to our current students, we do see a kind of a similar balance in their opinions. So some really like it, some really don't like it. and actually, if you try and get an opinion to, sway us one way or another as to how to do it and really always falls on a bit of a balance, actually, between the two, there's not a clear winner in many ways between, a student approach to that. There's the it's for some people, it's it's really well, for others they find it slightly less engaging. So, I think as long as we haven't got that across every day of everything we do, then it kind of works. I guess your job as program lead is. That's probably a little bit of an an insight into many of the things you're having to work and do is to find balances and to find ways that are inclusive for for students and looking at new ways of technology. And obviously, the pandemic was a real change in how teaching teaching was. Do you think we're any closer to finding a bit of a, a sweet spot within within this, or do you think this is just inevitably the way education, it's just going to inevitably keep on changing? I think it will keep on changing. we've only now got to look at, sort of the growth into virtual reality from, kind of, I guess, reality that's becoming a new growth area. and I think if you couple that with the style of online learning we've had, it won't be long before we move into the world of avatars and online learning spaces, which are truly spaces to work in rather than, I guess the, the way we currently have it, which is, is still quite didactic in many ways. It is still sort of essentially just standing at the front, but virtually, on a screen talking to normally, a load of blank pages because people don't tend to share screens. and actually, if we start to move into a world of avatars and virtual reality, it maintains that, I guess, ability for people to protect their own space and to be accessible. but at the same time, it makes use of the best elements, I guess, of the, the online platforms. I pretty much I quite like technology things. So it's, it's kind of one of the things I do like in teaching, and trying to bring in technology in different ways. I for me helps to, to make things engaging, makes people want to to try things and do things. I'm very much kind of a mindset of giving people option to try. we'll throw loads of options out there. If some of them work, something along the way will click. And if if that helps you get to the point where you need to in terms of learning, then all the better. We'll just keep trying different ways till we get there. Yeah. And well, I mean, I think that sounds like exactly how it should be really, you know, trying to keep in in line with what's happening and what's current. And but as we said, many challenges within that. And I just want to kind of go back obviously, you know, you're very modest rich. So you know, but being program lead is a big deal. And getting to that, you know, level, no doubt there must have been some challenges along the way. Is there anything that stands out for you of a particular challenge you encountered? And you know how how did that affect you? And, you know, on sharing that, because I think often we we often learn a lot, don't we, from those particular challenges. No, definitely. And I think for me, program leadership, came very quickly actually, because where we were particularly in Moulton College, essentially there was so many different programs to run that most people are running a program of some sort. I was fortunate that, when I went into that sort of side of the job, I was able to manage the, the degree program that was there than the into the master's program that was there. for a time, actually, both of them. so I learned very quickly about essentially the process, and learned that process in, that kind of environment, which is quite heavily driven by the kind of, processes. so it is very kind of, structured and very, relying on kind of different things happening at different points of the year, and it being kind of quite rigid in terms of how it is run. and the more I've kind of progressed then on into other institutions, you carry some of that with you. and I think it's, it's something that, you see change a little bit. So the, the way that you have to manage things will be different. And on the tuition, each institution has their own challenges and benefits to, to their structures and their systems. and it's something that I guess you learn as you go through, as you get into university, you get used to the systems and the way that things work. but I think at the same time, you've got to be not afraid to challenge those things. So asking the question of why, I think becomes a very powerful tool, there's a, there's often a, a desire to, to maintain the status quo. but actually, sometimes you need to upset the applecart a little bit and see how things sort of shake out. Yeah. drive things forward a little bit and see how things change. I think is program lead. That's one of the things we have to do because we've got to keep the programs moving forward. I think if you stay static and you don't change things, then, certainly within 18 hours, business as it is, others will overtake you. and for us, here then the I strive for Nottingham to be the top rehab program in the country. I'd like to think where we are. So in that way, we certainly get the number of people coming wanting to come here and, and a lot of people inquiring, which is great for us. It's it allows us to, to get some really good student groups here, but it is not something we can rest on our laurels. And, she will happen every year. We keep pushing forward and changing. Things are moving. what we do, how we do it, and, keep in line with kind of the practice, I guess for me, it seems most definitely comes through very passionate about that. And from what I know from, you always want to be driving this course forward to be the best that it can be. that certainly seems a motivation of yours, but is that your primary motivation? Is there anything else that sort of, you know, keeps that sort of fire burning within you? If you've got like an end, an end mark, or an end goal you want to get to, or is it just continuing to push this in this direction? Yeah. I mean, for me, the end point I want to pass on to someone else, I've done this now for a number of years and not here, but a number of years elsewhere. But, I think for me, it's all about the profession. I was in a position where, I mean, being at Salford, for my undergrad degree. the professional body were based out of the university. a lot of the staff who were involved with the program, there were the people who set up the professional body. so essentially established the profession originally. so that kind of, I guess, instilled quite a lot of factional pride at that point. and then when I graduated and, that initial few months were had a little bit of spare time, I just happened to get in touch with, some old lecturers said, look, I've got some time. Do you need me to? Death doesn't help. and I actually helped out originally starting to collect some sort of graduate destination data. so basically just looking at, graduate members of Basra. Okay. Where are they working now? What they're doing? and that was my kind of stepping stone into the festival world, that grew very rapidly, and as has grown ever since, but it's something that I've always wanted to I kind of very much a mindset of, I can't really complain about the profession and what's going on in the profession if I'm not responsible to actually get involved and try and change something. so I took that session really early on in my career and got involved, so pretty much straight away. but as over time opportunities become bigger, and that's led to all sorts of opportunities to, to work not just within, the profession in the UK, but now internationally. And that's opened some really big doors and met some British people on the way. I think. What so many things you just said, really, really many interesting points of that, but something which I think is really, really nice. Is this all started by you reaching out to some of your colleagues? I mean, like, hey, what can I do? And then this is all kind of transpired from that. And you do hear and you do see these cases where that that often can be the start of something. I mean, I guess you can testify it's probably worked up for you quite well. But, you know, would you advise that for anyone else, you know, listening to this as a, as a start point. So yeah, definitely. And I think from a standpoint we, we, we put a big sort of emphasis on to placements within the, in the programs. and that's the same whether it's the rehab program here, whether it's the physio program with us or the health care programs, placements are really kind of key element. I'll always say students, I mean, particularly within, the sport rehab world, it's a very small professional world. and it's certainly the same if you go into two other healthcare professions as well that everyone knows each other. and actually being in a position where you can just say you, what can I do? How can I help? Can I just have a chat for a bit? just breaking the heights a little bit. You never quite know what door that's gonna open later. so I would always say to kind of engage as much camp with anyone. So if you've got some spare time. Yeah, it's great to have other things outside of work and things as well. and that's really important. But at the same time, it's, it's your profession. You've got to be proud of what you do. and, I'll quite happily argue with anyone about, professions if I need to. And I'd like to think I can be balanced in terms of seeing how, rehab can be used with really positive things, and where the strengths of that professional, but equally where our scope kind of reaches its limits and where we don't kind of go into, and trying to look at where some of those sort of crossovers are and where complements with other professions are. I think that's a really important thing. It's it's so it's one thing to pride in your profession, but equally to respect others. I think if you've got that respect for each other that actually everything works a bit better. at the end of the day, it's all about actually health services. At the end of it. so if we can all work together, then, then hopefully it's better for them. Yeah. That's lovely. I totally agree with that. And I think it again, nice to sort of that passion sort of coming through within the profession. But if you, if you could just take me back through because you say with sports Rehab, it's one of these fairly new courses on the, on the grand scheme. Of course. However, from what you've said, it's it's accelerated quite quickly. So can you tell us a bit more about how it all came about how it started as a. Yeah. Thank you. So for that the time and where do you you know, why do you think it's taken on like that and where do you see it. Where where is it now. Where's it going. I mean the freshness fits in my head it didn't seem that long ago, but I think in reality now is probably a few years back. But it started in 1985. so that's when Basra was first formed. and essentially it came from, a group of physiotherapists who were working in sport, and high level sport at that time. they basically looked at the training they'd had as part of their, programs and the postgrad learning, and they looked at the gaps they, they had between what they'd learned and what they needed to do in reality of being in, in high level sport. so they essentially took the core skills that they'd learned as physios at the time. and they looked at the people that worked with, with sort of some of the more sport science based components. Strength conditioning didn't really exist at that point, but essentially what is now strength conditioning, taking some of those ideas and kind of mix them together to, to form the degree. So that was originally started at Mary's University in Twickenham, which Salford followed the following year. They were the two original courses, really the start to the professional and very much they were the hubs of the profession for, for many years and year on year that's then grown and snowballed very, very quickly. And traditionally it was always seen as a profession that you work either in a clinical setting, either in sort of a multi-discipline clinical, independently, in your own clinic, or, you could have a sporting group and then you work in clubs and, very sort of organizations that way. so that was very much for, for the first year, ready to the world that it worked in. and really, that's what the, the profession was designed for originally. so that was the core of, of what it actually was, the foundations. I know for you, over time, things have changed. Things have moved on. every profession has changed in, in lots of different ways. and I think now fundamentally, the profession is all about exercise and movement. it's about when we talk about sports rehabbing and certainly as a profession, we've talked about, do we actually need to change the name of the profession? Is it a little bit, almost misleading in terms of what it's all about? Because it's not about rehabilitation in sport. It's about using sport as a rehabilitation tool. so trying to get people active and trying to keep people moving is, is kind of the key. and now what you find is that, that kind of idea is really embraced across a lot of different avenues. one of the big ones, I kind of opened up, a number of doors really was into the military. so working with, injured service personnel, but working as a civilian with those, those people, and the role was, was quite clearly defined that it was very much about the use of exercise and movement. and it was working alongside and collaborating with a physiotherapist to, to get that process going. So, essentially the diagnostic side went to the physio side. and then once we got to that point of knowing what the kind of outcomes were, then sort of through discussion, then it's what we did next and then pass across to the rehab side to go and do that sort of stuff. and, and that I think is a growing model. So we're starting to see that now being rolled into the NHS. set up. So there's a growth of, the rehab role within the NHS, which is really nice from, from our side to see, and it's conversion of names at the moment. and there's not sort of a standardized name for it yet, but that will certainly come. and we're seeing that growth of, the people in the profession actually progressing through the NHS structures now. So, whereas you sort of normally enter on sort of your band five roles in the NHS, you've now got people progressed through into band sixes and sevens, and given time that will naturally progression to band aids. and I think that will help to, I guess reinforce that structure, and hopefully build that kind of relationship between so the professions are there. So looking at the obviously you've been to physio, but equally in to occupational therapy, to speech language therapists, some of the other kind of healthcare professions you're going to work in, that's a wider multidisciplinary team, as well as you traditional ones in hospital settings. So you nurses, you doctors and, potentially things like midwives as a possible written future. So there's always that scope to, to grow that role further and, and look at where the opportunity overlap actually is. so it's, it must be really quite satisfying to see how something has started and, and how it's, how it's changing. And that was continuing to change in the opportunities that it then, produces from that. because, you know, within sport, sport can be very, well, it can be a brilliant place to work. It can also be a very challenging place to work and also be very competitive place to work. So I guess, naturally, you know, students on the course will most likely have some sort of sporting kind of interest. But from, from your experience, you know, within that, what advice would you be giving to students at this, you know, going through their degree or, you know, maybe coming to the end of their degree, thinking of their options? Would would you give that? Would you say, look at all these different areas or any bits of advice you'd think would be really good to take forward for them? Yeah, no. It's own way you end up working. It could be a bit of a surprise. I mean, it's perfect. I would never gone into teaching and seeing that as an employment route, but I actually I've really enjoyed it and and kind of loved along the way, I think for, I guess the sporting side, a lot of the people who come in to, to rehab and, and equally, I think in to physio, you see that as a, a well publicized route. And that's what you see on TV. that's the kind of, the headline post, I guess. often the reality of the role is very different to what it looks like on TV. it's not just about return to the pitch on a Saturday. and it's a, it's a very hard but very, very rewarding side of the job. I've been there, done that, and I've moved on. And, I certainly wouldn't go back to it now because I've, I've enjoyed what I did. but it is, it's very busy. it's very hard work and, it's really exciting. You get to do some really brilliant things. but it like. So it's very competitive. there's not that many jobs as a lot of people that, that want them. so you have to make yourself look different. You have to try to find ways to, to look at the roles which are there and think, how could you make yourself more attractive to it? often people will look towards things like, postgraduate study is one way of doing it, and that certainly works. so that gives you different skill sets, different bits of knowledge. that certainly can make you look different on paper. but then equally, I think it's partly then down to, kind of the idea of I mentioned earlier about reaching out to people and finding opportunities to, to chat to people and help out and those kind of things, they inevitably do help to, to find roles that way. but then I think you equally, you can start to look at some of the other opportunities that emerge out there. There's a lot of job chances and, and windows you can go into now that even five years ago didn't exist. you look I mean, politics obviously plays a piece in this and funding models that go with it. so we see a big growth at the moment now into things like public health. there's a lot of funding available for that. and actually is an important route. It's a really rewarding job at the end of that. And, I think it's, it's seen that as an option. that isn't a traditional route that people would associate with the, with the profession. but I think equally looking at things like education and research as employment, race, it's one thing as I think as a profession being is as kind of old or younger as we are. you don't have a, a kind of long list of people who are professors in, in sports rehab. there's not really any professors as well. So we have a in, in the profession. So, it's one thing that going forward will certainly change and it will adapt. And, I think for us at the moment, we're a tipping point as a profession where we have people now who have been in a chase for a number of years and, got to roles where, we have some sway, I think, in, in different industries, cross country. I think it allows the profession to, I guess almost standards and to fit in many ways, within sort of, the professional, education world, which if you go back ten years ago, there probably wasn't that breadth of, of people available to be able to, to do that. so it's, it's and that was well over time it will change. but we as a profession, we need to push that forward. We need to keep people going into the education side. We still need to kind of push the researcher as a, as an important rule for the future, because we would need people to, essentially develop that component of the profession. and the more people do it, the more it will kind of snowball on and more people will end up. but it is it's nice to, to kind of see the profession growing to a point where that happens. it's, a what has been a long process of professionalization, really, of the profession, which is seems a very strange kind of phrasing, but, it is how it happened. It's it's changed from, essentially a, an idea, and professionally, something that fitted the need, into a independent profession which, which didn't exist before. and obviously every profession's gone through that process and it's, it's not something that is necessarily new. but it happens in very different ways and very different timelines, very different sort of route that people go to. and I think for, for sport rehab as a profession as a whole, it's just at that point now, it's grown very rapidly. So in the last ten years, it's changed all full up, and move forward or fall, I think, and I think as a profession now, we're very much about trying to work with as many other people as we can, to try and open doors as much as we can. not just for, for rehab profession, but equally for the people we essentially treat and look after. that's wonderful left. I've really enjoyed it. Well, yeah. I mean, and and as you said earlier, you know, seeing this profession grow, but these opportunities available not just in sport but military, NHS research a first, you know, professor, lots of lots of things I think is important. I sometimes think with students they, they might underestimate the number of skills that they are developing. Yeah. During this course you know, and those kind of cross transferable skills. So what what things would you say, Rich, obviously, with all your experience and some of the things you say, what were the what things have you seen that have been able to be all look, you learn more than just this and that, you know, and take out into the wide world and go with something else. What things would you say are the things to be really proud of, of learning on this kind of journey? I think a lot of people are when you look at, I guess what what rehab and physio and, and sports therapy and other similar professions are, are casinos. often it comes down to things like massage skills. people kind of see you as just someone that does massage and that's the whole of your skill set. whereas that is certainly something we, we learned, but it's a very small part of a much bigger tool toolbox, really. so we have a fundamental kind of foundational skills in and kind of knowledge of things like anatomy and physiology and those kind of science based, topic areas. and I think you learn a lot of the, I guess, the day to day, skills and knowledge we need. So you then go into things like exercise and, certainly cross into sort of the strength conditioning world. But then I think you have a lot of the wider skills as well. So, so much of what we do is based around communication. so as much as we, we focus on sort of how we, we lead exercise, how we coach and how we instruct. And, some of the differences we have that, people don't often realize that they're learning different ways to communicate with, with different people, and be able to be quite adaptable to what they do. I think really helps to improve practice and make you far better what you do. we certainly I as a, as of university, we have a number students who come through who will hopefully progress into sports rehab as a profession and, can be very successful that, we have people who completely go in different directions. we've had probably witnessed wonderfulness that people going into, zookeeper was, was one example. so not something that the foundational skills really help with. but at the same time, you're learning about care, you're learning about looking after this. You live and learning about communication. So actually a lot of those same fundamental skills carry over. so although we do focus on for charity, few people, that were dealing with the core skills that are there do cross over into other avenues. you look at things like leadership as a, an idea. we spend a lot of time, I guess, looking at different ways of leading, whether that's kind of with individuals, whether that's with teams and groups, whether it's sort of as part of a wider multidisciplinary team. The idea of leadership within that, I guess, is, softly introduced in lots of different ways. we do have to have this big flashy sign that says this is about leadership, but actually what you're learning is how to lead and instruct and kind of guide others, which is fundamentally what leadership should really be all about. I think, you know, and again, I think it's great to hear kind of where people end up, you know, I mean, again, that trajectory, that career path, that choice can all change. And, you know, we do see it, don't we? I think probably since the pandemic, it feels like a lot of people have reevaluated where their careers are going. And has offered a lot of change. But as you say, so many cross transferable skills into different things. It seems like it's a real good platform. I'm conscious. We've talked a lot around of work and career, which has been really great to listen to, but but more interested which to that a little bit about yourself or what you like to do sort of outside of outside of work, how do you what things do you enjoy, you know, and how do you kind of try and strike that work life balance if you count it? Yeah. What is a balance? I think outside of of work, you try and take the opportunities where you can to, to, to switch away from work. I think inevitably it's, it's something you can never switch off. you look at the modern world, and the way technology works now, everything's accessible. Everything's always kind of on and going, you always get emails coming through. but actually what, what you try to do is create that balance and try and, have a bit of, I guess, in many ways, discipline to, to be able to step away from it. So, big thing for me. Would they be separate into family? so outside of work, whenever I'm not on the clock, essentially, I'm back on the clock for for family time, and they become, I guess, the drive to everything that we do. the reason I'm here is essentially the, the family to to provide for them and look after them. So that's probably the biggest thing. so whether that's ballet classes, whether that's going bowling to cinema with them, you know, take them out to the park, all those kind of bits and pieces is that is fundamentally the, the reason for being, so that's why we do stuff, but we have to have other things that, that switch it off. So for me, I've always enjoyed kind of the, outdoor life I grew up, for, I guess for my younger years that, I was more active. I was in, lived in North Wales, so I was out in the mountains and, riding a bike sort of 5 or 6 miles down the road, up and down hills, dirt or up the mountains, to be honest, to to get to my friends houses. and that was just the reality of how I grew up, and that I was always kind of stuck with me a bit. and it's something I enjoy going back to and experiencing wherever I can. and certainly something that I take my family now to get to go and experience and show them. I used to live in, the bath things I used to get up to as a, as a child, up in the valleys in, in north Wales. but then equally, I've, I've always grown up, sort of in, in the kitchen really. so my mum said was a teacher, so she taught, in and fruit technology. and so I've been cooking and baking and whatnot since I was probably 2 or 3 years old. and that's something I now do with, with my daughters. so I enjoy baking, enjoy cooking stuff. I enjoy particularly being outside and, so I, I guess pride and joy things, my pizza oven outside that I make use of fairly regularly to, to cook on. and so that for me, it's the night when we go out to Summernats, we get outside, and actually go around and cook outside. it's a skill to learn. It's a very different kind of world, I guess, to to what we do day to day. So what's your I mean, this is now great that I know that you bake because I'm not going to get you to bring in cakes now for work, but. Well, well, few things on this. Have you got a particular signature dish like that's a typical rich dish. Like like that. That's my that's my stamp on something or your go to or have you got anything you particularly enjoy cooking? I'll pretty much try anything. I think the if you ask my wife, it would definitely be pie. so that was one of the first things I cooked for her. and the one thing that she always wants me to cook. but it's, it's not the cheapest of things to to make. If if you make it kind of properly, you do all the seafood. yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it has to be done properly. It's not worth doing. I think in her mind. what did you learn, that dish? well, I spent a lot of time watching cooking channels. Yeah, yeah. so she picked up of that, the a lot of the cooking I do, is based on ideas. Partly. Just make it up as you go on. All right. I've got a number of cookbooks. My wife hates that. I have a number of cookbooks that she says I don't use. but she I read them to get inspiration and then use that idea to cook with, rather than necessarily following a recipe, which is probably mobile, do in work life. I'm more about following recipes than, but yeah, definitely. When I cook, it's more about taking ideas I've seen and play around with stuff, see what happens. most time it works. Sometimes it doesn't, but you learn from it and you go again. but yeah, it's a pretty good it was a pretty good kind of philosophy to have in life, I guess. But as you say, in terms of elements of risk and things like that, as you say in your work, life can't be sometimes is, you know, you got to follow sometimes processes and things like that, but it sounds like you've got this nice sort of outside of work level to sort of play and experiment and, and, and enjoy on that. Yeah. Give it a go. It's great. Yeah. It's a, some nice things about cooking is that if it goes wrong you still got probably something that you can eat. Yeah. And you can still eat at that point. but worst case, now you've been at and try again. And in terms of that, I mean, it's, you know, because I say some people do find cooking can be quite relaxing, quite nice. Other people can find it really stressful. It's nice that you seem to remember the former. How about any sort of do you have any sort of other sort of hobbies or interests or, you know, you said you that I sometimes go to the cinema or any particular films that you like or anything I watch pretty much anything, to be honest. at the moment my life is generally around things like Disney. but, what's your favorite Disney called? It's a different age. It's difficult. It changes. I mean, I think I, I went through the frozen phase. I think that that kind of was sweet to pull my ears off now. but, I think for me, I'll watch anything as long as I can kind of, see a bit of story and, and kind of, I guess a little bit of immersion in it. certainly I, I I'll, I'll go to cinema and watch star of it. For some years I lived, I've hotels in Leeds when I was, I was teaching up there just through the week. That was actually a really nice way to go to escape. So I'd, I'd finish work, rather stay in hotel room for the night. I'd go sit in the cinema. so the idea of sitting on the audience and. But that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't do that. that's harder at the moment because, having two young kids, you can't really get to cinema so much. but, so I'll, I'll copy, watch, watch things. And I think for me in the was about the pandemic a few times for me, the best thing I bought just ahead of the pandemic was a projector at home, because that allowed me to have essentially a cinema home, which then allows me to watch sport on big screens, which is also a good thing. so I'm quite happy to watch any sport. I don't really care what it is. In many ways. I've worked in a number of different sports and, I again cross into kind of work life. I'll always say experience what you don't necessarily need to like. You don't need to get really into it. You don't follow teams, but just watch it. your professional brain will kick in and you'll you'll see certain things in it, but at the same time, you can just watch activity and watch people do stuff, and watch people enjoying what they do. but for me, I mean, my background is rugby. I grew up playing rugby. so I still watch rugby an awful lot. and I think that allowed me to, have something in common with my dad, which was kind of where it came from originally. but then equally are things like, watching Formula One, which then actually has family links. Again, I link back to my granddad, who I grew up with him watching formula. So it stuck with me. I'll go and watch when I'm on the full stuff. I'll watch anything, really. and, and particularly for the sports that I don't even understand. you start to, to watch. I mean, the TV systems now have loads of different, channels and things on there. and you do see some weird and wonderful sports. but you start to see things like speed climbing, you start to see surfing, skateboarding. there are all sports that I don't understand. I, I know what they are, but I certainly do understand the rules or all those kind of things. But actually, you can just watch what's going on, and see and enjoy what's going on. Really. but ask me what's actually happening. Who's winning the clue? but to me, doesn't really matter. I'm watching an activity that is important, and actually I'm learning from it. which is, I think for me, the important thing is always learning. And it's nice that you've got that nice broad, obviously. I mean, you know, within your, your job and project being sporting, you can see that's in your sort of your personal life as well, which is a real nice, element that with the rugby's it rugby union that you have a league. And do you have a team that you support and do you, are you following the Six Nations at the moment. And it's very recent. So I don't I wouldn't say I support anyone in any, any sport really. you have two teams that you loosely follow. so rugby wise, I tend to follow less Tigers and Northampton Saints. Saints. I certainly feel like I should do because I work for a few years. so you have a little bit of loyalty that way. and likewise with tigers. is now the local team, for for where I live. and again, I've, I've worked with people that I've got friends who've worked for the club. so you do kind of have that little bit of, affinity, I guess, to the clubs that way. but to me, it doesn't really matter who's playing. I'll watch because it's a sport that I've grown up playing. And we, I started playing when I was seven years old. and I played right the way through to, when I finished school at 18, I played live after or tried to play a little bit after. it didn't really happen because, my money couldn't do it, but, at the same time that push me into the fresh lemon. so over many years, it's kind of been something I've enjoyed as a sport, but an equally something I've enjoyed working. so it's open up a lot different doors and, once you've been in that world, you see it in a very different light. so you watch on TV and it's, it's, it's a nice way of kind of dip your toe back into a world that feels quite familiar with being involved in those kind of sports. When you watch some of these on TV, what thing do you think the TV misses the most in terms of the kind of the the overview? Because obviously the TV will package things up, make things look a certain way, but after being in it and seeing it, what do you think's the thing? Which is you think, oh, if only you knew what it was like to do the real thing. What could you give? which would be a real good insight. I think it's what you see on TV is, is a very small part of a bigger cog. It's a much bigger thing that's happening. And the people you see on TV, the athletes, they're all people. and when you've been in there and you've seen and worked with them, you know, them as people, and you don't see them as the big superstars are on TV? they're just another person, the same as your mates down the bar. so that obviously makes things very different. but equally, I think you can see the dramatization of things, you know that for every headline you see in the media, there's a whole backstory to it, and there's a whole lot more to the story that actually has, has never seen the light of day. with if you're not in that world, then you don't know that backstory yet, and it's unlike each other to, to find that out. so I think that's it's always interesting when you can kind of read between the lines, a little bit of, of what you see in on, TV coverage. And I think that, yeah, it's always just, it's a nice I just open the door again a little bit and, and remind you of what it was like when you were in that world. Yeah, yeah, it's the Bahrain Grand Prix starting this weekend. I think qualifying to that. And again, do you have a team that you follow that. Oh, you just like watching the whole thing and seeing what happens. Yeah I mean I'll, I'll follow anything. I think I got loosely, if you look at teams, all of tend towards Mercedes. mainly because the powertrain factories and prices of bricks with which is based I've driven past it a million times going up and down the road there. so that's just a tendency to be in that direction. but actually, I don't mind, it's more about the sport and seeing how it works. it in many ways, I think if I wasn't doing what I do, I would probably go into car mechanics, because it's the same kind of idea, because it's trying to identify problem and fixing it. so it's what I do just with people. so I think it follows a lot of the same kind of patterns, really. yeah. It's a it's a different ball, I think, since you've seen the growth of things like Drive to Survive, Netflix has changed the, the sport entirely and accessibility to sport. so yeah, I think it's, it's become a lot more popular because of that. Yeah. Do you think sports rehab could end up well or does it already work with Formula One? Is it. Yeah. That that there's a certainly a route there. so there's there's one company that that deal with Formula One and a number of different formats. Actually, as you go down through the the system, and there's a route there for, for rehab to be involved and, essentially to work in that trainer role. I think the, the role within formula One is very different to a lot of other sports because it's a lot more encompassing. although you're just doing your role officially is to kind of look after side the injuries of someone and, you cross over into the training side, you cross over into nutrition, into psychology. so all the things we kind of introduce students to, part of the program, they're always amplified in many ways in that role. because you're the one person that is the constant, and actually what you tend to find is people will work with drivers rather than teams. so if the driver moves on, the training moves with them, and that being great brings a great continuity to it. but at the same time, it's very, engulfing, it's, it's not a world I've worked in. It's something I've certainly looked at and, been tempted by a few times, but, it's it's a really, I think, like most sports, a really exciting opportunity to, to go into, I think something that if you do it, you'll love it while you're there. probably realize afterwards how busy you were doing it. Yeah. I think it's a really good that's a really good point. like some of the experiences I've seen and being and heard exactly that. Nothing. Nothing wrong and aiming for that and going for that, if that's what you want to do. But you're absolutely right, I think. Yeah, some would argue the sustainability of of doing that for x number of years. let's just say life can change and of things can happen. But that's, that's one of the great things about these, these, these professions is that it can give hopefully opportunities like that to work in different areas and, and see the world. Yeah. It's never side. There's still there's always new opportunities and there are increasing numbers of opportunities. so I think even if you go into a role and you're not sure if you like or not, it's worth trying it because actually you might really love it. It might be the best thing ever. but if it's not, then there are more options. Yeah. I think as a profession for us as rehab, is it it's a growing kind of option to to go into different things. and having that flexibility to work in lots of different worlds, you know, it gives variety, it gives hopefully excitement and hopefully longevity in terms of, not getting bored in the role you're doing and, and kind of feeling have to go off and do something different. You can always find a different role in rehab. I think I just want to finish off Richard just saying if if you could take yourself back to yourself, back when you were a student again, knowing what you've gone through now, but take yourself back there, speak to you, say your younger self. What bit of advice would you want to tell yourself then to sort of help see you through the following years? I guess it's, it's having that confidence that the profession is growing. certainly when I, I, when I finished, you talk about the profession being so much sort of ten years old. Really. so it was very, very young at that point. at the time, it felt like there was all the options in the world. but actually just to, to look back at what's happened since and how far it's come in that time, it has really changed and really opened up an awful lot. so I think that's the big thing is just to, to have that confidence in the profession is growing, it is successful, and it is kind of going to open up a lot of doors. but I think just to go and talk to people, I think that's, that's been the, the best opportunities have come from the fact that, taking chances to, to talk to different people and try different things out. you never know where these things will lead. But, you know, if you talk to people, you you might find something that's quite interesting and it might open the door to you. so for me to be able to work internationally with, with different groups and to work with, people out there in America will sit in Canada or Art in Ireland, even into some of the, the other groups, in sort of Korea and Japan and, and, and Israel things. As there's a lot of groups who are growing, and actually in many ways are where Backtrack were a few years back. so actually, it's nice to be able to just talk to people and I guess in much the same way, be able to pass on them the knowledge to say, look, it will change and it will grow and, it will improve as a profession as all them do. Well, as you say, best bit of advice, start and have a chat. and I think this has been a great chat. So rich, thank you for joining me on this. I've really loved it. And, thanks to producer George as well. And, and for talking with us next time. Thank you. I wish you shall not have gone away. We.