00:00 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
This is a real problem in our trades. We realize, my husband and I, that we have been so fortunate to have this experience, but there is no one to replace us. We have tried to go looking for apprentices and not been successful in doing so.
00:18 - Angie Hicks (Host)
Every home in America needs a team of skilled tradespeople Plumbers, electricians, contractors, carpenters. Careers in the trades don't always get the credit they deserve, even though it's a great career path. Learn from the pros, hear why they decided to trade up and the rewards of a career in the trades. I'm Angie Hicks and this is Trade Up with Angie. In today's episode, I caught up with Kathy Cuppie, owner of All Phase Group in Indianapolis. Kathy and her husband decided to go pro after college. They took a career shift and took them into the remodeling industry. They've now been in the remodeling industry for over 45 years. Kathy, welcome to the show.
01:00 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.
01:02 - Angie Hicks (Host)
Kathy, I was so excited to have you as a guest today. You know, you and I have known each other for what can I say? Close to 30 years, I think it was when we first met. So, it's great to catch up. So will you share with us how you decided to go into the trades? I mean, what was it in college that caused you and your husband to say, hey, we're not going to go and do the careers that we studied for, we're going to go try something different.
01:27 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
You know, it was our senior year and we were talking about what we wanted to do. I really wanted to go on to graduate school and Dave said heck, no, I won't go. What can I do? I went to school for polish. That's what I came to college for. Now I want to decide what I really want to do. And what he really wanted to do was be in construction. He did not want to work in an office, he really didn't want to have a boss, but he wanted to work outside and he wanted construction. So really we were pulled in by his desire and I was willing because he seemed so creative and I thought that would be a really creative pursuit.
02:00 - Angie Hicks (Host)
And what did you study? So you were thinking about grad school. What did you study in college?
02:04 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
I wanted to be a child psychologist. I really saw a lot more school coming my way. Yeah, and it did come my way. It just didn't come the way I thought it was going to come.
02:14 - Angie Hicks (Host)
Yeah, and so you know, being a woman in the trades today is unique, but 45 years ago was probably incredibly unique. So tell me about life as a woman in remodeling.
02:26 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
There was no one else doing what I started doing. I didn't do all that I do now. Back then I didn't do all the estimating, I didn't do all the appointment calls, but I was behind the scenes, more clerical in office and scheduling. When I started doing the actual on-site calls I really got to see the reaction to woman in construction. I would show up for the appointment. Usually the mister would answer the door and say where's the estimator? And I'd say, well, I am the estimator and so it took a little bit. But the more I did it the more confident I became and I learned pretty early on they took their cues off me. So if I showed up and I was ready to look at their project, give them ideas and give them an estimate, they flowed with it. It got easier and easier.
03:12 - Angie Hicks (Host)
Yeah, yeah, and I bet there were plenty of times they asked to talk to your husband along the way. Were there tricks that you used or ways that you kind of got yourself ready to have those conversations so that you got your foot in the door?
03:24 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
I did because I said he's on the job site making things beautiful and he will be on your job site making your job beautiful, but he can't be everywhere. So I'm going to do this first part and he's going to come and do the second part, and you'll be glad. We divided our labor like that.
03:39 - Angie Hicks (Host)
Yeah, so tell me about the early days of starting a business. What surprised you? What turned out the way you expected? You know people love hearing what it's like in kind of a startup mode.
03:52 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
Well, you could probably Google it now, but back then you could not Google it and it is hard. But we thought, you know, get the skills first. And they found you jobs. We went through a union apprenticeship to become journeyman carpenter in Dave's case and they found you jobs. But that was in the beginning. When we decided to incorporate and go on our own and go residential construction, we had to start finding those jobs. We always moonlighted. So there was that. If somebody heard we were carpenters or contractors, we were called. But moonlighting wasn't the same as going full time. And that is where this neighborhood organization came into play and I heard about what is now Angie, formerly Angie's List, and that they could be a source of referrals. I had a hard time trying to market what we did and that was a source of referrals.
04:40 - Angie Hicks (Host)
What makes your company unique?
04:42 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
Definitely we are a team effort. We are a mom and pop and my being a woman in construction and being half of the team and coming out to do the appointments and giving my perspective on design has been a real boon. In the early days I was the only one doing that. Dave was an excellent master craftsman but I came with a woman's perspective and I loved looking at all the houses and giving them my ideas. That was different. That made us stand out. We also decided to do one job at a time that definitely stood out. Dave was a working owner, definitely stood out and we decided to keep it small, keep it local and do it perfectly. So the marketing wasn't the necessity to get numbers and numbers of calls to make wasn't the same. When you choose to go small, you can be more selective and the referrals I was getting were in my neighborhood because Angie's List was in my neighborhood and it worked out great.
05:36 - Angie Hicks (Host)
You know, you said you stayed small. How big is your company today? How many employees?
05:40 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
I've only ever had four employees and we do the most gorgeous work. We're capable. Well, we named it All Phase Group because we wanted to tell people we did all phases of construction. But we did all phases room additions and everything with just four people, that's three carpenters and me. And it's amazing what you can do if you have the skill and motivation. And we did, and still do really beautiful work.
06:08 - Angie Hicks (Host)
And you know having the consistency and the dependability of that small team. You know, you know each other and you work together for a long time. I think that certainly probably comes through in the experience.
06:19 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
It was easy to sell my husband and his work. It was always easy. He was just a perfectionist and it was what he was meant to do, so I never had any trouble selling our work.
06:29 - Angie Hicks (Host)
You know I always like to ask tell me about your favorite project. There's probably, over the course of your career, have been many, but give us a taste.
06:38 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
I can tell you exactly what my favorite projects are, because I've done a lot of different things, but I've done one thing that not very many people do, and that is extravagant tree houses.
06:49 - Angie Hicks (Host)
Oh, my gosh.
06:50 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
I've done two of them and both of them were very different, very unique and gorgeous and we were given carte blanche to do them properly. One was the client said I'd like to have a treehouse and I'd like it to be hobbit style and I said what is a hobbit? I don't know what hobbit means and I went and Googled it. I went to Google and I realized it was everything round. We didn't build it on the tree itself, we built it on stilts, but it had a spiral staircase up to it. It had a round porthole entry, it had fairy houses that were round and I do believe Angie's List came out and filmed me in it at one point.
07:32
It was charming and we did one in southern Indiana and it was two stories, 15 windows and had a rope bridge over to it and a zip line and it was absolutely fabulous. And it also was built on stilts and it had a tree coming up the middle of it, which was very interesting, and we built a deck. It went down to the water with a zip line. So we built a deck down there. It was fabulous, extravagant, built beautifully and was enjoyed by so many people from very young to very old, especially the zip line.
08:09 - Angie Hicks (Host)
That is just crazy. Yes, I have to see pictures of this. I mean, my kids would be so jealous. The swings that they had as kids will pale in comparison, I imagine, to a custom-built treehouse. I can take you there.
08:23 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
I can take you there. That would be awesome.
08:26 - Angie Hicks (Host)
You know, one of the big things today is there's just not enough people in the trades. What do we need to do to encourage people to enter the trades and kind of take that leap? You know, and especially you, You've been in the industry 45 years. You've seen so many changes. I'm sure you've talked to lots of young people about the opportunities. You know, what advice do you have?
08:46 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
Well, I thought about this before speaking with you and I called my local builders association because the first thing I thought is, if I were 25 and I wanted to be a woman in construction, what would I do? And I, or if someone was asking me, what should I do? I would call the local builders association. So I did that and I was told that they just formed an impact group and it's called women in construction. So I would join the builders association you don't have to be a builder yet to join and find some of those other women pick their brains. The biggest thing I'd advise is shadowing someone like me. I think we all, as elders in the trades, need to help provide this shadowing experience and I would be willing to do that. So that's, step up and play a role, not just talk about.
09:34
This is a real problem in our trades. We realize, my husband and I, that we have been so fortunate to have this experience, but there is no one to replace us. We have trained no apprentices. We have tried to go looking for apprentices and not been successful in doing so. So I would say, getting the word out, which is what your effort is, which is great, and then be available to these young people so that they can first see what do you do all day and what all is involved in being a woman in construction and then decide if I want to do this. Do I want to be a general contractor, which is what I am, where you have seven trades underneath you that you should be knowledgeable about. There are apprenticeships out there much more in the past few years, but finding other women in construction I was so happy to hear that from the Builders Association.
10:26 - Angie Hicks (Host)
That is fantastic. There are a decent number of misconceptions about the trades. I mean, I think one of the things I think about is how much technology plays a role in the trades today which you may not even realize. I mean, especially when it comes to the mechanical elements of it. You know you think about tuning up an HVAC system today. It's a very different experience than it was 20 or 30 years ago, and there's the opportunity to own and run your own business. You know the trades make up a big portion of our small businesses in our communities and you know it can be a great way to be an entrepreneur and to make a really meaningful impact on the community. So, kathy, one of the things that I do recall from meeting you years and years ago was your trademark. Tell us about the trademark that you do for every project you complete. Sure.
11:18 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
Well, in the early years, where you're trying to do a great job but you're also trying to make your mark and be remembered, I wanted to do something at the end of each job so that they remembered me in a positive way, in addition to the nice product, the nice remodeling we left behind them, because remodeling is so stressful. I thought, oh, I just want them to forget all that, I just want them to concentrate on something positive, and I decided I would cater a meal. It probably did start on a kitchen remodel in the beginning, but now I do it for every job. I cater a homemade meal that I have made to the customer. I leave it there, it's all cooked. I give the directions, I give the recipes and that is what I want them to remember my mother's brisket and pineapple cake, and it is absolutely a winner. It's a very good PR and I do that for everybody.
12:08 - Angie Hicks (Host)
I love it. I love it. I remember you telling me about that. I think it is a perfect job of reminding people about how personal especially of home remodel. I mean, you know you're with your customers. You know it could be weeks, could be a month, while you're doing a project, especially a big project for them, and I couldn't think of a better way to celebrate than you know effectively, a family dinner in their new space. You know, nothing says home like family dinner.
12:34 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
So I think that's a fantastic special touch that you do I have repeat customers who are asking me, when I come to do the second job, we will get a brisket dinner.
12:47 - Angie Hicks (Host)
And I say of course, oh, I love it I love it it's fun, it's fun. Maybe this is a second career for you, kathy. Maybe you're going to open a little brisket restaurant.
12:57 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
I have been told catering's in my future. I say no.
13:03 - Angie Hicks (Host)
So I always like to do a little look back. So, knowing what you know today about running a business and the industry, what would you go back and tell that fresh college graduate?
13:13 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
I would say be confident. I probably could have been more confident. I really thought I didn't have the union training. Like Dave, and I don't know as much as my husband, I probably won't be able to do these appointments and I did have several snafus. I have to tell you they are stories to be told but with confidence people will key off that. I would probably say this to my 20-year-old self Just tell them all your good ideas. Just tell them to give you one hour At the end of one hour. If I haven't given you some good ideas, you know I'm not going to charge you anything anyway. Why not spend one hour with me? I've seen a lot, I know a lot.
13:51 - Angie Hicks (Host)
That is great advice. That is great advice. It's similar to the one I like to give too. It's like you know, the worst thing they're going to say is no. That's right, share your ideas. You know the worst thing they're going to say is like not for me today. But you know, at least you've talked to one more person, you've gained feedback and you've gotten a chance to sell what you have to offer.
14:10 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
Exactly.
14:11 - Angie Hicks (Host)
All right, kathy, it's been great. This conversation has been wonderful. I'd like to now turn it over to a question from one of the listeners We'd like to offer a trade-up tip. And from one of the listeners We'd like to offer a trade-up tip, and today's question comes from Madison. She's interested in starting a remodeling business with her dad, who's a licensed plumber, and is looking for some advice. You know she'd like to know first if you actually are treated differently as a woman and tips on how to handle that and any advice on particular training for owning a remodeling business. She really likes the idea of remodeling because it lets her have a broad perspective across a number of trades, from plumbing to electrical to HVAC, and is just really looking to learn more.
14:55 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
Yes, I think she will be treated differently because she's a woman. And how I handle that is I absolutely ignore it. I just move forward with what I have to offer, answer questions and try to show what I know just as quickly as I can to dispel any misgivings about my being a woman. I would take her with me to all the different things I do the appointments, working on bids, the customer interface, telling the subs what to do on the job site. I'd encourage her to see all of that, the good and the bad, before she ever got into the remodeling business. It's wonderful. It's stressful but it's wonderful and you get to be your own boss. You've seen your father's business and you've seen plumbing.
15:36
I really encourage you to go at least speak with a woman in construction, if not join an organization, so that you can participate before you dive into that pool. There's no school to go to to learn how to own a remodeling business. I wish there was, but going to talk to someone who has that business and spending some time with them and actually I would say volunteer. They'll let you come and do anything. Just volunteer just a little bit to see what it really is. It is very stressful but it's so rewarding. But I think you need that woman's perspective, so you need to go talk to somebody minimally, work with them. Maximally, go to work for them.
16:16 - Angie Hicks (Host)
I would say that's the very best thing to do you know that's absolutely great advice and you know kind of developing those mentors and those relationships. So you know kind of talking to remodeling companies but then also developing. You know, as a remodeler you end up you know kind of becoming that one-stop shop where people need advice from other types of contractors. Like Kathy, you did a great job remodeling my kitchen. Now I need a landscaper. Building up your network in the community that you're going to start this business and getting to know other peoples and different types of trades will be valuable as well. Well, kathy, this has been a delight. I really appreciate you sharing your stories with us today and appreciate the time.
16:59 - Kathy Cuppy (Guest)
Happy, happy, happy to do it.
17:02 - Angie Hicks (Host)
Thanks for listening to Trade Up. I'm Angie Hicks. You can learn more about the show at Angiecom slash Trade Up, share your thoughts on the show, ask questions and learn more about the skilled trades.
