Aileen: 0:02
This episode welcomes two experts in the video game development scene in the Philippines. Pixel Mafia's founding partners, Walter de Torres and Coby Chan. Pixel Mafia is a Manila- based high value art and development studio for AAA games and movies. Some of their notable partners include Respawn Entertainment, CD Projekt, Activision Blizzard, and PlayStation Studios, among others. Walter and Coby joins us today to give us an inside look at the different facets of video game production and how complex AAA games have changed and molded the roles, as well as the career paths that the video game industry has to offer today. Today I am with Walter de Torres and Coby Chan, the founders of Pixel Mafia. And you guys are going to take me into the different facets of video game production. Hi guys, welcome, welcome. Thank you for your time here on the podcast.
Coby: 0:56
Yeah, very nice to be here. Thank you for stopping by. Yeah, absolutely. We're excited to do this with you.
Aileen: 1:02
Yeah, and your office is really, really nice. Super exciting. And I think that really speaks to today's episode where we want to speak about how you guys bring games to life and the worlds around it. So, you guys built Pixel Mafia from the ground up, but a lot of people don't know how much it takes to build a game from scratch to something that we actually play on our console. So how does that happen? What are the different roles of game production that comes into play?
Walter: 1:30
Right. Well both Coby and I have been in the industry for well over 20 years each focusing on different aspects of game development and with game development itself, there's a whole variety of different types of games. Like you can have like the indie type games where you can build a game with just 10 people and then you can have the AAA type games which like live on the other spectrum where it literally takes 300 to 800 people over five years to make a game. And that's where Coby and I have primarily spent the majority of our careers. And I think what a lot of people don't understand is that when they think of game development, they think of like a singular, you're a game developer, you do everything, but there's actually a whole wide variety of different roles that it takes to be able to deliver a video game. So, you know, imagine if you have a studio of 500 people. Within those 500 people, you're going to have designers, you're going to have engineers, you'll have content people, you'll have audio, you'll have QA, you'll have animation, cinematic, story. The list goes on and on and on, and there's a whole bunch of different specialties that are required to be able to bring a game to light. And even within each of those categories that, that I mentioned, like, let's take engineering for example. Within engineering, those are primarily the coders. There's gameplay engineers or system engineers. There's tools engineers, UI engineers, cinematic engineers, like all these like specialties and departments that are required to bring a game to life. For Pixel Mafia, we primarily focus in on the content side of thing and within content, again, is a huge umbrella of, of different specialties that, that are required to be able to bring a game to life.
Aileen: 3:21
Okay. That's really interesting 'cause nobody really sees how many people need there. And you mentioned the difference between indie and triple A games. How is that different from, I know you mentioned you, you got 10 people for your indie games. What else are the other things that makes that difference?
Walter: 3:38
Well, I think you're going to hear the term AAA thrown around a lot in game development. There's a lot of debate in terms of what makes a game AAA. But I think the one thing that most people can agree on is really the budget. If you've got a really gigantic budget, let's say North of a hundred million, you're kind of considered AAA think of it as. Like the blockbuster movie, right? And then when you have indie, indie is another wide variety. Like you could be a one-man shop as an indie where you can, you know, you make Flappy Bird or something like that. You only need one or two people, or you can have-- there are indie studios out there that maybe have anywhere from like, 20 to 40 people and they have a much shorter timeline development period and stuff to be able to, to make a game. So, it's really about scale and complexity is, is what makes the difference between like an indie game versus like a AAA game. Same thing with movies. I'm sure now the, you know, iPhone 15, you can probably have one person that can create a movie on their own, or you can have a gigantic, you know, 200 million budget and have thousands of people that contributed to making a blockbuster movie. So it's kind of the same thing.
Aileen: 4:53
Okay. That's very interesting. And you mentioned Pixel Mafia is specializing in AAA games and from the sound of it, you guys are playing a big role that is played by several other companies as well. So how do you find, or what made you choose that certain focus and how are you thriving in it?
Walter: 5:14
I can take the first part. I'm sure Coby has his view as well. You know, when both of us were working at Microsoft at the time, and what we found was that games are just becoming more and more complex, and they needed more people. And so, studios on their own could no longer deliver on the scope of the game. So, they needed a lot of development partners, service providers, like outsourcing art studios. And sometimes they would outsource like UI and all this other stuff. And, and even with, you know, outsourcing has been around for a long, long time. You know, right when we made the switch, what we were expecting from a service provider was changing. Before, what would happen was that we'd give them all the easy stuff to do. It was like, hey, just make this chair, you know, make this bush. And this is something that wasn't really core to the game. It was changing to like, oh man, we need them to do a lot more. We need them to think on their feet, problem solve, work in an engine, really be true development partners. And so, we saw that shift happening and, and Coby and I were thinking that you know what, I think, you know, there, there's definitely a need here for service providers that could really offer a lot more than just doing the easy stuff, right.
Coby: 6:31
Yeah, if I could add, I think when you're, when you look at AAA games, you kind of think of those as what Walter said, like the big budget titles, right? Similar to movies like an Avengers or a Spider-Man at the end of the movie, there's like a whole list of credits. Many of those credits are not from a single place. A lot of them are from multiple studios, from multiple people that have worked on it, whether it's from visual effects to the audio to the 3d animation and stuff like that. So video games has really evolved to the same thing where it really does take an army of people to get to that point where we're actually creating something substantial. So that's, where the budgets are going. And, quite honestly, why Walter and I have been doing this in this genre, it's because that's what we know. Like that's what we grew up with. Working in and those were the types of projects that we were used to doing. And, to Walter's point, again, it's just, we found that because there's so many titles around the world and because these games are so big that there really should be enough room for everyone to thrive and to find work and to really have a piece of the pie. So luckily for us, like we've been able to. to carve out a small piece of that pie and we've got a chance to work on some really great stuff.
Aileen: 7:49
That's very exciting because I know I mentioned this to you guys before that 10 years ago a career in the game industry isn't even thinkable. If you say that you're going to get like bad look especially if you're from an Asian country, you know the stereotype, right? But now you guys are at the forefront of carving out that space wherein if I say I want to be in the video game industry. It's not just, just one role. Like what you said, it's, it's an army of people. So, if we zoom in, what, what are those roles looking like? And what do you think are the roles that people can come into in the future? So, if I'm an aspiring video game developer, what are the things I can look at in terms of maybe joining your team or maybe joining another prominent studio's team, what are those roles going to look like?
Coby: 8:39
Yeah, so I can speak for us. We, we at Pixel Mafia, we're primarily a creative studio, so we have focused more on the creative side of things. So, we have a concept artists, the people that help design, illustrate things before they actually get to the screen, right? They're the people that are really coming up with the ideas before there is like the ideation side of things. And then we have the 3D folks who are the ones who are really building those ideas to something that you will eventually see on the screen. So, just to keep it simple for now, those are the folks that we're looking at. But, you know, as we described earlier, there are actually a lot of different positions and similar to other companies out there, you know, we also have HR, we have recruiting people, we have people that work on the admin side. Also to mention, like on the production side of things we have producers who are actually-- they're kind of like our project managers who deal with, budgets and scope and schedules and things like that make sure that they help drive everything so there are a lot of positions available for video games right now and to your point, I think like yeah, it's like 10 years ago, there wasn't a lot happening, but you know, given that Walter and I are from Vancouver, Canada, where it's been-- video game industry has been such a prominent industry, it's probably one of the biggest in the world. So, when we came here to the Philippines, we really saw like, why isn't there we're happening here. Right? And that really kind of sparked the flame to, to ask those questions. Like, you know, why can't there be more happening in the Philippines, because there's so many people here, so many people with really great talent. We saw that there certainly is an opportunity.
Walter: 10:31
Yeah. And I think over the next five years, specifically for the Philippines, you're going to see a lot more different types of roles and jobs. So, I think what we've been able to establish over the last seven years as we've been here is that Filipinos are great at art, they're very creative, and so in terms of content, we're strong. In terms of communication and production, problem solving, managing projects, and all that stuff, we're really strong at. But then, once we actually start developing the gamedev life cycle here in the Philippines, to start expanding into more like engineering, and design, and cinematics, and animation, all those things are already present here in the Philippines. But I think what you're going to see is that those are the areas that'll really kind of grow. And you can see a lot more of those types of jobs available here.
Coby: 11:20
I want to add to, I think it's not only the Philippines, but like an Asian mentality that there's this notion that being an artist, you'll be, or creative is you're going to be., you know, a poor artist, but what we're trying to tell people is that's actually the opposite is, is actually, we're providing really great careers here. And, and even with us, a lot of people have been with us since the beginning. And we've really seen their lives change. Because there, there is a thriving industry here that pays really well and can give a long-lasting career. So that's, that's the main thing that we want to tell people is that like, hey, it actually pays well to be a creative.
Aileen: 12:01
So, the narrative has changed. That's really good to hear from, from guys who are actually doing the job. And so if, if we flip the narrative, if let's say I am a fresh grad looking for a really good company, what are those green flags that I should be looking at, looking for in a development company? If let's say I want to work for, let's say Pixel Mafia, what are the green flags? Or if let's say it's an unnamed brand, what should I look for?
Coby: 12:29
I mean, I could try. So, as a creative. If you're applying for like, like an artist role or things like that. The first thing that we always look at is really the portfolio, right? Like, do you have all the foundational skills in order to do the job that, that we do or that we're looking for? So, within that, there's many facets to that, right? You can be a graphic designer, you can be a 2d concept artist, you can be an animator, you can be a 3d artist and within 3d artists, there's other skillsets. There are specialties, like there's people that focus on character art, people that focus on hard surface or weapons and vehicles that you saw earlier, as well as like people that are focused like more on environmental types of things. So, like, picture this room, you know, someone has to make the table, they need to make the chair, they need to make the props. So, there's people that just do well in that. What we asked or what we're looking for from people is to really kind of understand their own foundation and what skill sets they're strong in and really emphasize that. And then, so the second big part of it is that, hey, are we a right fit here? Right. It's not always all the skill. The second thing is like, can we get along? Like, are you, you know, do we have the right cultural fit to have a relationship and work together every day? Cause honestly, most of the time we see these people more than we do at the people at home. We spend a lot of time at the office. We spend a lot of time speaking to people. So, we want to make sure we find the right folks.
Walter: 14:02
Yeah, I think for new grads looking for, like their first jobs, that's like primarily that angle that you're looking at here. I think the things that they should be looking for is like the, the culture and the environment. Is it something that matches what they're looking for in a role? Because, you know, I take a look at, we do hire a lot of new grads and the ones that do really, really well are very passionate about their craft. Right? It's not just about, hey, I play a lot of games. So therefore, I want to be a game developer. It's like, hey, like I, I really love this. I live and breathe it. And, and those are the folks that really get to stand out. If they're a great position and all of a sudden, they've got like multiple choices you know, hopefully that that'll become more and more common. I think it's about making sure that they have the opportunity to actually kind of shine and that there is a good training program and, and they've, been able to take that company has been able to take young people in and train them and they've seen them become successful. I think those are the kinds of things that they should be looking for. It was like, hey, some of your veterans that are here, how did they start off? Like, did they, were they able to-- was it, is there a path for them for success or are, are most of those guys hired elsewhere and they're just kind of brought in, right. For me, I'd be looking for people. For longevity is like, oh, here's a company that actually, you know, their artists stay there for a long time, and they've grown and they've had lots of opportunity.
Aileen: 15:23
Mm hmm, that's good to hear because so you want the cultural fit, you want passion, and it's good to hear about longevity because that means security for them, and that means where you can really bring food to the table. So, this has been very enriching. Thank you, guys, so much for bringing your expertise and your thoughts about the future in the gaming industry in terms of roles and can you tell people how to find Pixel Mafia?
Coby: 15:47
Yeah, definitely. You can find us on www.pixelmafia.com or you can find us at Pixel Mafia Corp on Instagram or Facebook. We're also on LinkedIn too, so please do find us.